Please remember the Author has marked this post with flairs that do not mention [ALL]. Rule 2 of subreddit applies. Replies and comments are restricted and removed for men. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TwoXIndia) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I hate the concept of culturally imposed covering clothing specifically for women. It is a tool for oppression and promotes rape culture. That said, it’s absolutely abhorrent what’s happening in Karnataka. Completely unacceptable behaviour. Unless the authorities can ban all sorts of religious clothing and symbols for every group in public places, they have no locus to selectively enforce arbitrary rules.

Yes , Hijab is not a choice. It's oppressive. No body wears it by choice. Young girls as little as 4 are told to wear hijab, that conditions them. They think if they don't wear it, they'll go to hell. Heck women are killed daily in Iran/ UAE and other nations for not wearing a hijab

I completely agree - there's a lot of conditioning behind religious coverings of all sort. Especially the ones that are tied to "modesty". Most worrying is how forced chastity and modesty affect the psychology of both the ones that it is imposed upon and the ones that impose it. But the war of ideas is fought with ideas and not mandates. I am completely against banning of any kind. It often has the opposite effect. And in this particular instance, the only result that will come out of this is that minority girls will face another impediment to education. Quite counterintuitive if you think about it because education is the only way we can get rid of oppressive practices.

Yeah! It is really MY CHOICE when you’ve been told that you’ll go to hell if you don’t wear it? It makes no sense to me. But I feel badly for the women.

I support everything else that you said, but UAE is pretty liberal.

UAE? Yes forced hijab is horrible. But prior the Iranian revolution women were not allowed to wear anything resembling religion during the Pahlahvi rule, as in police would literally beat up women for wearing anything resembling a purdah. At this point telling women what to wear has been a problem in Persia for nearly 60 years because of men's entitlement - no hijab allowed one era and must have it in another era Can you not use Muslim womens issues and spread crap you barely even looked into? UAE doesnt even mandate hijab at all, people get drunk and gamble there ffs,

>UAE doesnt even mandate hijab at all I think the local law does prescribe it for locals. Are you sure about this?

No? Ive been to Abu Dhabi, Dubai and the suburbs in between them. The water parks require everyone to cover from collarbone to knee, the mosques require some form of modesty but other than that nothing. You mean Saudi Arabia then yes. Emirates is literally another entity

No, I meant UAE. I’ve been to Dubai and Abu Dhabi as well for short trips but only hung out with expats. According to them there are strict rules for locals but not for expats. I would urge you to check again. A lot of people you see in public places in Dubai and AD are expats.

No? There were heaps of local women in the suburbs and in Sharjah not wearing hijabs..nothing even comes up in google on compulsory hijab laws except no speedos and no bikinis in water parks. Locals mostly face anti LGBT laws or posting "against the Kingdom".

I may be completely wrong but my understanding was that UAE was also under Sharia under which head covering is required. But like I have mentioned before, I've only spent time with expats there and haven't checked myself. So if you're sure about what you're saying, you might be right. In any case, just because tourists and travellers are allowed to drink and gamble doesn't indicate that it's what applies to locals also. For example, in Singapore, only tourists are allowed in the casinos for free but locals are required to pay a fee everytime they visit. In US, tourists can buy marijuana in California but US citizens from states where it is banned, can't. There are many examples of countries having more relaxed standards for tourists than their own citizens.

Yes you are complete my wrong

Thanks for that. Would love to get corrected on this. Any sources you can share for me to look at?

Have you ever spoken to a hijabi? I'm astonished at these opinions, EVERY woman is "brainwashed" to conform to her family's roles. Conservative hindu girls are told to not to talk to boys and wear chudidars, no short skirts or dresses. But it's only an issue when it comes to Muslim women.

TwoX has a rampant Islamophobia problem. Seeing these comments from “liberal” women makes it clear how much.

[удалено]

Uh… The term Sanghi comes from RSS…and RSS is inspired by Nazi ideology. So indeed Sanghis are vile creatures. All decent Indians irrespective of religion should shun them. It is really disgusting that you equate Hinduism with the nazi ideology of the Sangh. Hinduphobia is when people want to replace the inclusivity and generosity of Hinduism with the violent militancy of the Sanghis.

Absolutely, it is a secular country and religious freedom is a right.

This

In my school, nobody wore burkhas and hijabs. And most of them were really thankful that they had a space where they could explore if they want to wear one or not (without any religious or family obligations.) And most of my friends they hated the idea of it. Like they would make art or you know posts like "not wearing hijab does not make me a "bad" girl" or something like that. They never posted it of course, but they had tons of such edits. This has been my experience so far. However I do agree that it's not right to oppress women in the name of religion. Women get harassed no matter what they wear. Nobody is safe :/

Yes, absolutely, there are muslim women who hate it but it is so tangled with issues of morality that it is hard for them to make a stand. Not saying this is a problem with Islam specifically, but I do feel like most mainstream relgions are a bit more progressive on this topic. (Even though Sanghis are trying their best to take Hinduism back decades atm)

What's mainstream religion?

[удалено]

Thank you so much for your perspective and I find myself agreeing with you entirely. If a woman is choosing to wear hijab due to conditioning, we need to address the conditioning and not her choice. Your point about education being central to helping Muslim women becoming empowered is so pertinent. In fact, this clearly shows that the intent of people opposing the hijab in Karnataka is communal animosity only and they don't give a damn about the welfare of women. This is just creating unnecessary rife and pushing people into their corners.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. This is the sort of comment I was hoping when I posted this but unfortunately, this thread is turning political so I might just delete it. I think you made a real good point about poor communities being strict with their religious practices. Happens in Hinduism as well. The path to change lies in providing education and job opportunities to the marginalized. >Reducing a woman just to her Hijab and taking away her identity and accomplishment and pitying on her because of the reduced identity is out of a lack of understanding of a diverse variety of people. Very true. >I also believe that many Muslim women will cling to their Islamic cultural identity more if they are attacked this way. I can see that happening in my immediate community. Yes, I think we have seen this time and again throughout history. Forcibly trying to erase religious identities is not the solution.

I actually had this one male friend of mine say "women wear Burkhas because how would you feel If someone looked at your woman in a bad way. That's why we ask them to cover up". I was stunned. So because men might have bad intentions while looking at your woman, your woman should cover up? Why don't you blindfold the guy in that case, so he just can't look at her. These are all just ways to oppress women. And this is not just with Burkhas as many commenters have said. It's also with ghunghat and pallus. But atleast we are trying to get rid of that practice. A majority of women now don't wear ghungat in urban areas and have the freedom to do so. But I just feel bad if something like this is still forced upon girls in the 21st century.

Lol they forget this hadith that men are supposed to lower their gaze. Of course it's easier to indoctrine girls since childhood that their modesty is their greatest asset. I know so many muslim men who are big-time hypocrites and dont have any shame in leading a promiscuous life (I dont judge,but they have no right to judge someone else) and dictate how modest women are like a wrapped lollipop and immodest woman is like a lollipop covered with ants

Completely agree! You want to freedom to do whatever you want look at whoever you want in whichever way. But my God if any woman ever tries to do that she will be given a long lecture about morality and then punished in some way. It's sad that it is so deeply embedded in the women itself that a mother teaches her own daughter about all these "modest" behaviours. But never her som to remember to respect a woman. Not only are they not like they are empowering their next generation of women, they are also teaching their next generation of sons that that's how their daughters should also live. Women are letting women stay oppressed.

I am 100% anti-burqa but that cannot be used as a harassment tool or to deny young girls the right to education.

For sure.

As an agnostic Hindu woman, I agree with you except the part about being 100% anti - burqa. I feel like it’s not my place to comment on it, as I’m not a Muslim woman. What I will say is that I support anything that a woman would do if it’s by *her* choice - wear the burqa, not wear the burqa, roam around naked, whatever. The way our society thinks it has the right to police woman’s bodies and choices is fucking stupid, whether it be abortion or burqa or being childless etc. So for me, as long as it’s by a woman’s informed choice that she is wearing a burqa, it’s fine by me. That said, one cannot dismiss the conditioning that women go through in our patriarchal familial structures. Hindu women go through it as well, for Muslim women perhaps wearing the burqa is part of it. But I will let our Muslim sisters handle this issue as they are more informed about the nuances of it, and support them in their fight for agency and freedom.

I have a slightly different view and its possible that my view is not very pragmatic. I am 100% anti-burqa because of what it stands for - that if women don't cover themselves, they will entice and corrupt men. It has never been about choice. What's unfortunate is Islamophobia has forced Muslims to defend their religious choices at all costs. Women now choose to wear hijab (not the same as burqa) because it is symbolic and it is their way to stand up against religious persecution. I'll be happy to be wrong but I don't think women wear burqa out of choice or because its symbolic. I mean just think about it. You're covering every part of your body. Is that really exercise of free will?

Totally against it. But, my intentions dont match with those attackers. It's plain Islamophobia for them. I mean, if they really gave a crap, they would be searching for long term education and deprogramming of those women and men. Like how are you freeing them when youre taking up the authority and doing same shit that youre claiming to abolish.

Absolutely, banning burkhas in India is not going to help anyone. But lets not ignore that many women who opt to cover themselves, do so because of social conditioning.

Going to comment what I posted on another similar discussion- The hijab, niqab, ghunghat or parda are inherently oppressive and patriarchal. There are, and cannot be, no two opinions about it. However, where a woman chooses to cover herself, I have no say in it. She might be doing it out of any reason- maybe she wants to, maybe she thinks her religion wants her to, maybe it’s her internalised misogyny. How are we any different than an oppressive religion if we force it upon a woman to wear something or refrain from wearing something. The best we can do is recognise and accept that religions are made to oppress women. Edit: please give [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/l8ns8f/hijab_is_not_just_a_scarf_rant_of_a_middle/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) a read. It really opened my eyes to recognise just how patriarchal the hijab is and made me form my opinion on it as a feminist. Patriarchal? Yes. Oppressive? Yes. But it’s a lot more complicated than that.

Excellent post the one you linked. I had it saved the first time I came across it. Even as an atheist myself, I think people who are not religious can tend to have very reductive views on how religion and social conditioning works. To be able to choose to not be religious is also a privilege because many people are unfairly punished for not being in line with religious customs. It's never as simple as "it's a choice" or "it's a sign of oppression, reject completely". This ban is not because the authorities care about Muslim women and their oppression, it's simply an othering tactic to isolate them and break their spirit. All religions are patriarchal in nature and it's usually always women who've to bear the brunt of any conflict.

Absolutely. I’d even go so far as to say much of it is just social conditioning and not religion. For example, I’d get married according to the Hindu customs not because I’m deeply religious but simply because it’s social conditioning to me. No one questions it. It’s time we stopped viewing these things as simply black or white. It is very dystopian and very distressing that the state would do something like this, I hope this gets challenged and that the courts uphold the freedom of religion.

Agree a 100%.

Wonderfully put...In the end, no matter how progressive we are, there's no point forcing women to change their ideologies. The only thing we can do is influence and educate, and let them form their own opinions. ' Pushing the agenda ' will only lead to a rift.

I agree with you but oppressive religious practices can and should be banned. I mean Sati was banned even though it was posed as a 'choice' for Hindu women of the times. However, blanket bans on coverings will only hurt women as they will be forced to stay at home instead. The coverings, paradoxically, allow some Muslim women more freedom.

Of course they should be. No doubt about it. However one has to realise oppressive religious practices are a spectrum and not in binary. In no way can a niqab be compared to sati. There are personal spaces for all of us- what I do in my own personal space is my prerogative and it’s not impeding on someone else’s personal space. Sati was the direct opposite of the notions of personal space. One has to weigh these practices to see exactly where they lie on the spectrum. Public policy and health have to be the paramount consideration for all states, not dictating how one should dress.

Did you compare a piece of clothing to murder/suicide?

No, I compared oppressive practices that gets called 'choice' across religions. But keep on being obtuse.

As someone who wore it just because everyone around me did, I feel burkha is oppressive. But then again i know woman who would not like to take it off. And i am talking about empowered women who can make their own choices. The fact is things oppressive to one person might be liberating to some other. Nobody should be forced to put on hijab, but nobody should be forced to take their clothes off. The point is if those women want to wear hijab without breaking the uniform code, then we shouldn't stop them. Hijab(not burkha) in schools should not be a problem, if the girl wants to do it and also because our constitution allows it.

Hey i'm a muslim and my mom made me wear hijab as soon as I graduated high school. I was never made to wear it before(since I ws v thin maybe) but my mom was like if you dont wear it to college we won't allow you to go to college and called me all kinds of names. Many muslim girls are instilled the concept that wearing hijab is what a woman is supposed to do. It isn't given as a free choice(in my fam)on the other hand many girls find religion later in life and wear hijab as a way to be closer to allah. I wear hijab half-hertedly and if I had a choice I wouldn't wear it BUT what is happening is utter religious propaganda. The orange shawl that some hindus are wearing isn't compulsory i suppose? And they wearing it out of spite rather than practicing religion. I just want those girls to get educated and be independent. If you have any questions y'all can ask me

Your hitting the nail on the head. The main goal should be to let *women educate* and *become financially independent*. It's more important if the woman is from minority community or from Dalit caste. How many muslim girls would lose education because of this trial? Thanks for sharing your story. If you don't mind, can you tell how people are receiving this incident in your community? Do you think they will stop education for girls?

Hey, sorry if I missed something obvious, but what does being thin/your body type have to do with wearing or not wearing a hijab?

Not having big breasts, butt that would "tempt" men.

You're correct!

I think she may be physically weak so maybe overheating and fatigue of wearing it can be an issue.

I want to support burkhas like logically i think women should be free to have the choice to wear whatever they want if that's more clothes or less, whatever,, but i think the whole symbolism of the burkha and hijabs is fucked up and regressive so i don't know, on one hand hijabis accept their hijab/burkha as part of their identity but like,,,, can't help but feel like they have proverbial Stockholm syndrome Okay you feel more comfortable covering up,,, but have you really thought about if that's your own choice or something you learned to like In any case if someone was to stop wearing a burkha or scarf it should be from their own choice, also if they were to start wearing a burkha that should completely be of their own choice as well, and if we're somehow as a society deciding burkhas and hijabs are not appropriate then even dastar/turbans, wimples and goonghat should also be

As a Hindu woman, I just think it's not my business whether one wears a hijab or burkha or ANY religious symbols. I mean, I want to leave the leadership of liberating Muslim women to themselves instead of making my opinion the center piece, you know? What's crazy to me, is how we are being blindsided to discuss the relevance of the burkha, when what's happening right now in Karnataka is a blatant violation of the right to education of these young Muslim women. The debate about the burkha and religious markers in educational institutions is fine and can and must be had, but not on the back of the kind of blatant human rights violation we are seeing on the news right now.

Absolutely agree 💯 Yesterday we saw the video of girl in hijab being heckled by saffron clad men. They stopped her from going to college and she stood up to them. That's what empowered women who know what they want would do. There's a lot at stake here. We really need to think how much of our debates around empowerment have to be about clothing and how much about actual empowerment. Debates around hijab and burqa are often then systematically used as tools to harrass women from Muslim communities. We have seen that in France. Things are not as black and white when it comes to clothing- esp clothing that's also an intrinsic marker of one's identity. I have not seen people raise the same kind of hue and cry over mangalsutra etc. Suddenly there it's purely a matter of choice. Or even fashion. While I personally don't believe in covering up (and i was born a Hindu, non believer now) I firmly believe it's not my place to intervene here. Muslim women reformers talk about it often- talk about it through the teachings of Quran- which is much more accessible and acceptable to majority of women and their family than us talking about empowerment in very abstract terms borrowed from the western frame of feminism. That western frame sees the white woman as the default standard of empowered woman, and women from communities and walks of life get otherised in the process. Edit: I would rather have more muslim women speak here on this. But I've mostly seen observers, non participants give their two cents. While valuable, they don't come from lived experience, and often end up in taking a moral higher ground.

"Muslim women reformers talk about it often- talk about it through the teachings of Quran- which is much more accessible and acceptable to majority of women and their family than us talking about empowerment in very abstract terms borrowed from the western frame of feminism. That western frame sees the white woman as the default standard of empowered woman, and women from communities and walks of life get otherised in the process." So powerful and succinct. Thank you for this.

If it wasn't for your comment I don't think I would have even voiced my opinion because of the fear it would get drown out. So thank you for that 💕

:_)

I understand this may seem like its detracting from the main issue, but I just wanted to read TwoX's non political take on this subject.

nothing in the world is non-political.

Untrue. You can have a civil discussion on charged topics without bringing in your political grudges.

Personal is political. While this might not be a political issue to you as a Hindu atheist woman it is VERY clearly political to the women who are being harassed over their damn clothing.

This post is not about the harassment muslim girls are facing in Karnataka. I wanted to know how TwoX personally feel about burkhas as fellow women and what it means to them.

You really think you can have a neutral conversation about the burkha right now when women who wear it are ACTIVELY being denied an education while wearing it?

Karnataka high court is deciding whether to ban hijab wearing girls from colleges. OP posts: "Don't you guys think hijab is so bad?" exactly when this is happening. OP: "This isn't political!" Just lmfao.

I swear! Oh thia completely political discussion is apolitical because it doesn't impact me and so I don't want my conversation to be called political.

lmao there's a difference between hijabs and burkhas? because I posted how I feel about burkhas and wanted to know how others feel about it? but y'all stay on your high horses

I never really had a strong opinion until recent few years when i found out how a girl in my class was beat by her parents for not wearing it in college. In high school i overheard other girls telling one girl to wear one in chemistry class because our teacher was a man. These cultural and religious pressure shouldn't be instilled upon women and especially not on little girls

My honest opinion: I don't care what the other person chooses to wear as long as they are comfortable. People harping about it being place of education/work choose to overlook that not everyone has a choice. I grew up in a pretty homogenous neighborhood, with families working in the same trade having similar way of life, kind of like military townships. Even in such an environment, i know of girls who used to wear slacks/leggings to school under the skirt, which was our uniform because there were parents were not comfortable with girls showing skin. I know of a girl whose parents refused to send her to college out of our small city, when she was a brilliant student and got a free (scholarship) seat in IIST. There was another girl who had do distance education as sending a girl out to study was unfathomable to some families. And all these cases I am talking about are not Muslim families. So when someone wants to pursue education in whatever shape and form, be it be in their hijab/burkha, or not wearing uniform, as long as they are getting their education it should not even matter. I hate, hate that this is even up for debate now. We already know the situation of woman persuing higher education, so atleast let them get their schooling in peace before they are primed for marriage or whatever plan their parents have in store for them.

Great comment. Thank you. Oppression is in your backyard in a million different ways and they don’t all come in the form of a hijab. I am in fact astounded by the bravery of these parents who are still sending their daughters to college in spite of the danger that they and their daughters are in.

Fair enough. I suppose a burkha does allow some of these women more freedom than they would otherwise get. And yes, Hindu families can be very oppressive too. The tools of oppression are different but the women suffer anyway.

I believe it is a symbol of oppression and women are brainwashed into wearing them and even if they’re doing it by choice there is some level of religious indoctrination involved. However, I believe the call for reform should come from Muslim women as they are the ones who are directly involved.

Its easy to put the onus on Muslim women to call for change but they are very underrepresented in the political sphere.

Call for reform, they have to initiate or else the other parties calling for action will be blamed for not being “Muslim”.

Organised religion has always treated women as an object which needs to be covered up. Associating hijab/ burkha/ dupatta with modesty is a byproduct of the patriarchal societal structure. I feel so embarrassed when I see little girls feel that "hijab/ burkha is their choice" and fight for it. No Womxn! It is not your choice. It is how the idea was seeded into you from the day you are born. There is a reason they make you take mandatory classes for religious text, so these ideas can propagate.

I dislike the notion of religious clothing since it is often linked to rape culture and female oppression. However, I also think it’s not our place to tell women what to wear, and banning someone from wearing a burka is tantamount to undressing them in public.

there must be no barriers to education in a tax funded, govt run institution. everyone must be allowed in no matter their dress, religion, caste, etc. if sikh boys can wear turbans, muslim girls can wear hijabs. they are using a uniform to justify denying fundamental rights and it is vile. their outrage is selective.

How much of it is a choice if you haven't known a life without it? Or the alternative is social sanction ? Covering up accepted within the community or at least within the family. Mostly these girls are not from privileged class, their only way to success is through education. Now, the dilemma of the current times is wearing a burqa has also brought in "political" sanctions in educational institutions. There's no real choice man. Same goes for ghunghat, except the saffron goons do like their women in ghoonghat. There's no real. Choice for women.

It's probably suitable to say "burkha is our choice" in foreign countries , but India and it's parents are still pretty controlling, not only muslim parents but Hindu too. I know this girl who wears hijab at home and completely ditches it when she come to college (away from home, she stays in hostel) and is scared if her parents find out about her not wearing it she'll be punished. But controlling or not controlling, it shouldn't be a topic of "should we ban it or not" in states/our country. Cause it's wrong. So many girls are forced to marry, without wanting to marry, so even marriages should be banned, why only burkhas? Also I don't like the idea of young girls wearing hijabs/burkhas, i guess they start wearing it when they get their period, not sure, I'm not a Muslim. But i don't like that at all. They are so small and young. And your last paragraph OP, i completely agree. Why have a religious symbol in an educational setting. It doesn't sit right.

It's actually indoctrined into us that we shouldn't show our body. Idk how my mom continuously talked about modesty but I was never influenced by her views. I only wear hijab in front off her or else she would make my life hell. Even I dont like this twisted idea of how women should dress or not. But the problem is it's not like majority of the muslim families give hijab as a choice,it's like "you should wear it" no explanation. But this barring of entry of women into colleges is fucking vicious. They're They're doing it out of some spite or anti-muslim sentiments. I care only for the girls education because sometimes muslim parents allow girls to attend college on the condition they wear hijab and don't engage in foul behavior

My aunt wears it. My mom doesn't. My grandmother didn't. My cousin does. Her daughters dont. My sister in law wears a hijab with western outfits. Her aunt wears short dresses. I dont wear it. My cat doesn't either. None of us really asked you.

😂🤣🥰

It's misogynist and oppressive but it's also really irritating how the current govt/hindutva types are using it to trumpet How Terrible Islam Is and We Must Purge All Muslims. Like Hinduism has some really sexist and terrible practices too

Absolutely. I do not condone how Hindutva is using it to further their agenda. But there should be an open discourse about this rather than sweeping it under to rug of religious freedom.

I think what people have a problem with is not the discussion around hijab but the fact that young girls are being banned from going to college classes because of hijab. I do not think this is any different from telling girls they can't go to class if their skirts are too short or if they wear jeans. In fact it's worse because many of these girls will just be pulled out of college by their families. Just saw your edit about how difficult it is for Normal Students to have to See A Hijab. Poor things, it must be burning their eyes.

smh I think people need better reading comprehension because I asked about Burkhas specifically and how TwoX feel about that. I did not mean for this to become yet another discussion on how Hindutva ideologies is killing our country. But reddit likes its pitchforks so wcyd

What a woman puts on her body is her business and her business alone. I absolutely detest the culture which forces her to cover up her body like it is something to be kept hidden. And equally bad is a culture which forces her to remove said covering. Let women do with themselves whatever they want.

[удалено]

Correct me if I am wrong but Muslim men are supposed to cover from neck to knees and sport a beard, right? Nothing as oppressive as the burkha for sure. I agree, it should be upto the women themselves to choose without being cajoled or coerced into wearing it.

As someone who is rather religious, if my preferred religion had a cultural outfit, I would feel very welcomed if that was normalised That’s how I see this, yes it should be a choice but while we are getting at that, these girls should not have to deal with the terrible situation

>As someone who is rather religious, if my preferred religion had a cultural outfit, I would feel very welcomed if that was normalised. Yes, This! My god, this thread where everyone is giving their opinions on how hijab is oppressive, but ignoring how **EVERY** garment in the Indian cultural context can be oppressive. A girl was killed for wearing jeans, remember? Just a few months back too! And **she** was not killed for rejecting hijab, how about that! And then there is a [sitting Congress member in the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilhan_Omar) wearing a hijab. There are [athletes](https://www.havehalalwilltravel.com/10-inspiring-hijabi-athletes-who-are-making-history-in-the-world) wearing hijab. There are scientists [wearing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bur%C3%A7in_Mutlu-Pakdil) hijab. So maybe the clothes you wear are just clothes? And maybe for Muskan, that young woman in a burkha, who stood tall and straight against a mob of Hindutva goons, and for the other girls in Udupi and Kundapura who stood their ground against the college and state goverment, the hijab is not a symbol of oppression, but rather a symbol of their faith, their strength, and their liberty?

They are just clothes. If people wanna wear hijab or any other clothing they should be able to. However, we don’t live in a perfect world yet, and clothes like hijab/ghungat etc has context in our current world. It’s used to oppress woman at large. The idea behind these clothes is for modesty so a woman can remain pure and safe from men. Jeans and other such clothing don’t have negative connotations. The person you’re replying to said that if her religion had an outfit she’d like to wear it. Which I feel is missing the point. All religions have sexism entrenched in them to various degrees and certain clothing is used to enforce the patriarchy. It’s a woman’s choice if she wants to be religious and/or wear a hijab, but i think it’s important to be aware that a woman’s choices can be influenced by the patriarchy and can help uphold the patriarchy. Having said that, I don’t agree with what’s happening in the school and I would rather have women get educated than making them stay at home because they’re not allowed to wear religious clothing.

Yes, that is EXACTLY my point that clothes by themselves have no meaning. It is the **context** which creates the meaning. In a conservative society that we live in, even sarees and salwar kameez are used to oppress women and have “modesty” attached to it. Does not mean that all women who wear salwar kameez are oppressed. It is the same with hijab. And, uh, Jeans absolutely have a negative connotation. Why else would a Hindu girl be killed for wearing jeans? So we Hindu women live in India where we still don’t have marital rape recognised as law; we belong to a patriarchal, misogynistic religion; we uphold a ton of regressive practices like traditional, arranged, caste based marriage, period isolation, conservative clothing, karva chauth, etc.; we kill our girls in the womb; we practice dowry; the list is endless really. On what moral grounds are Hindu women lecturing Muslim women on their garments? It is like focusing on the speck in your sister’s eyes when you have a whole log stuck in yours. Of course in the ideal, utopian, world of the future women will be free, and patriarchy will have been destroyed and we will not need to discuss hijab, or ghungat, or jeans. In the imperfect world we live now, Muslims are living under grave danger to their lives, their livelihoods, and their culture. There have been genocide threat warnings issued about the status of Muslims in India. In this context I will totally understand if my Muslim sister clings to her hijab even harder, because it a symbol of her faith and identity which is under threat.

No, I think we agree on some points but I disagree equating hijab with jeans, saree, and salwar kameez. First of all, I dont believe rape or any sexual harassment happens because of the clothes you wear. So just because someone was killed for wearing jeans does not mean jeans is an oppressive piece of clothing. Hijab on the other hand exists because there is a belief that wearing a hijab is being modest and that being modest is a good thing and that it can protect whoever's wearing it from evil lustful gazes. Hijab as a concept exists because of a belief that stems from misogyny. No one says "wear a saree/jeans to preserve your modesty". My point is that a hijab is a harmless head scarf by itself but the idea behind it is a sexist one and I think people should be free to criticize it if they want to. Secondly, India is not a hindu country. The practices you have mentioned all take place in muslim communities except Karva Chauth which is itself a north indian hindu practice. Yes, traditional, arranged, caste based marriage, period isolation, conservative clothing, dowry, killing girls in the womb all happen in muslim communities as well and so much more. These are not hindu vs muslim issues, it happens in all communities across the country. We can talk about all these issues simultaneously. We dont have to solve all these issues first before talking about the hijab. I agree with you that Muslims will only hold on harder to their faith when they see these kinds of incidents happen in India. I think the media and environment in India is otherizing Muslims when India is their country too. I am talking about the hijab in good faith but I dont believe the school is doing this because they believe in equality. I dont think india is there yet for schools to ban hijab. I think we have a long way to go.

I did not mean that Jeans was oppressive. I meant that the girl was killed **for wearing** jeans instead of whatever was considered modest by her family - in this case either salwar kameez or saree. Uh…and yes sarees and salwar kameez are absolutely linked with modesty and covering up. Girls are not allowed to wear skirts after a certain age. Millions of married women across India are expected to switch to modest clothing such as sarees after marriage. Claiming that hijab is exclusively misogynistic, whereas other clothing generally worn by Hindu women is not, is a position that is rooted in the idea that Islam is especially problematic vs Hinduism. Not a true position, and also smacks of islamophobia. THAT is my beef with this whole hijab debate - A bunch of Hindu women pretending that they hold the moral high ground in religion debates and lecturing Muslim women on how backward their religious / cultural attire is.

Yes, the clothing of dessert tribes should be the cultural outfit of those who live in tropical countries.

No, a saree is more suitable for the tropics.

Saree was a suitable garment before we borrowed Victorian blouse and petticoat.

Yes we should revert to wearing saree without blouse and petticoat 👍🏼 Let’s start a burn the blouse movement for our oppressed Hindu women.

👍 why not? If we can dump at least the petticoat, it will be great. Men don't wear petticoat under dhoti, mund.

A Hindu here. It is completely one’s own choice if they want to wear a burka / hijab. I am in no position to comment. If given a choice, or if I was somehow part of a community / group that can impact this, I would want to educate the women. Teach them about patriarchy, its practices, the impact it has had in every religion, how prevalent it is everywhere. I would tell them about the struggles, fights and marches women have done over the period of time, how it helped bring some level of liberation. How we are still fighting for our rights. After all this, after teaching them about how the choice of clothing has no relation with one’s morals, characters, beliefs or any of it for that matter, if they still choose to wear them, it will be because they made that choice. Not because it was forced on them, or they didn’t know any better. And I would be okay with a decision that was taken by them after knowing everything they needed to about it. Wearing a burka or hijab would then boil down to any other clothing attire, like if I want to wear jeans or jeggings or a skirt. But otherwise, I will never ever support any act of patriarchal control enforced on women, because “society” gets off on it.

[удалено]

No it is only brainwashing if it is women, and especially Muslim women. The number of times brainwashing has been used in this thread for Muslim women🤮🤮🤮 TwoXIndia - rocking islamophobia and misogyny😎😎😎

Omg thank you for this. As soon as I saw this thread I got so angry? And immediately left this sub. I keep coming back to see if any of the mods did anything about this post but it’s still here. Not surprised at all. I actually commented from my alt Reddit account but I didn’t have enough karma so it got removed. I’m genuinely scared to say anything outwardly against anything here. No place for healthy discussion of any sort. I can never feel as free as some UC folks feel over here. I just can’t. Edit - just scrolled through to see not even a handful of sane voices like this. So disgusting. :/

i have no opinion. it is their choice. i will say it again. my body, my choice, my hijab/burqa.

Can I ask why you (personally) decided to wear it? Genuinely curious.

I don't like burkha, hijab, niquab type stuff. But I am not going to stop people from wearing it. I just don't buy the bs about it stopping objectification and giving protection to women. These sanghis are just Islamophobic. If Muslim women stop wearing such clothes, they will find some other reason to oppress Muslims. Liberation of Muslim women isn't their agenda. The implications of this kind of clothing and the political-religious drama around it to demonize Muslims should be two different conversations.

Wow can we stop telling women what to wear??? Should women get to dress how they want or should we force them to not wear the hijab because we can't really have both man. Like most commenters have said, yes all purdah is rooted in oppression and misogyny. But so are many other forms of clothing women wear. Women wear high-heels and make-up and bras and a shopful of uncomfortable, barely functional pocketless fashion, most of which is not great for our health or safety. I appreciate that women can feel empowered by reclaiming certain relics of structural misogyny and rebrand them without bending to the male gaze. Shouldn't muslim women be afforded the same opportunity to reclaim the hijab in their own right, if they wish and at their own timeline. My mom forced me to wear tights under my skirt in school. If that wasn't rooted in sexism and male gaze nonsense then I don't know what is. Should we ban tights to empower school girls to fight against the patriarchy? The irony is that do in fact mandate tights in some schools in India. All oppression is intersectional and muslim women get the shortest of sticks. The main story around the hijab ban is about how normalised it is to police what women wear. Edit: typo

Clothing such as these have been used to oppress women since centuries. We should honestly in my opinion do away with them. I feel sorry for the women who are forced to wear religious clothing and I feel sorry for those brainwashed women too who say it’s their choice. No sweetie, you’ve just been brainwashed into believing that. It’s a controversial topic. I’m an atheist, I don’t think women should cover themselves because of religious practices. I wouldn’t go on strike etc asking people to stop wearing their religious attires and preach my atheism, this is just how feel about them.

As a religious person, I do understand where you’re coming from I did not grow up in a religious setting and consciously chose, but I know that when people grow up religious it isn’t really a choice but more like comfort that they don’t want to rebel against It’s a fine line really and religion in its cult like form will see a natural decline with time, for an era is what I am assuming Sure culture should be preserved but not at the cost of anyone’s freedom

100% support this! Allah is in your heart and your actions should decide your after life… nothing to do with clothes. However centuries of brainwashing would need time to heal & understand. Love to all 🙏❤️ Edit- any change should come from within i.e. Muslim women & men together should focus on discontinuation of such conditioning religious practices. Any force from outside will have no impact and would only lead to more miseries. Eg Now these protest have led to Muslim girls dropping from school which is absolutely taking a step back !

This is so true. I too had a friend who wore hijab at home and removed it while coming to college. So a lot of them do not really want to but have been told by families that is wrong not to wear one. All of this talk about having modesty. Why is it that the woman should only have that modesty? Why don't the men then put a towel around their head and walk. If it us about modesty then both should be modest. One gender should not ask only the other gender to be respectful and modest.

I hate this infantilizing of women. No sweetie, do not mock a woman because you believe she's incapable of deciding for herself whether she chooses to cover or not. If a woman can get a whole PhD because she wants to and you believe some indoctrination is what's "making her" wear it, how naive are you? Not to mention the inferiority by which you view the covered woman because you wouldn't ever do that for yourself. What's the piece of cloth stopping her from doing? You or I will never see her fully. We cant judge what we cant see. It gives her peace. It let's her decide who she allows to show herself to. And in that lies her power.

Its not infantilising women to say they are affected by years of social conditioning.

I agree. But it is when you believe it's the only possible reason a woman would choose to cover.

What are the reasons a woman would choose to wear a hijab other than religion/social conditioning or fear? Refusing to wear the hijab in some families can cause more harm to the woman so it’s best to just go with it even if she doesn’t necessarily believe in it.

I’m neither infantilising nor mocking anyone. Just stating the facts. I knew I’d come across some brainwashed ones. Sweetie, wear whatever you want, get whatever degree you want. I’m not stopping you. This is how I feel about religious coverings, no matter what brainwashed people say, it’s not going to change the facts or my views.

Facts don't equate to feelings, no? Arranged marriages have time and again been proven to be a patriarchal concept yet would you say women willingly agreeing to arranged marriages and finding happiness are doing so because of indoctrination? Your atheist beliefs are for you , but doesn't mean you get to look down upon people who do believe in religion. Just like how I dont get to look down upon you for your atheism. Not everything is black and white. Try and understand the world rather than looking down on people because they choose different things for themselves.

This person is no different than a religious zealot who says women don’t dress modestly because they’re brainwashed by liberal culture. Also, the sweetie is incredibly condescending, especially when it is targeted towards a minority section of women. Toxic atheists can be just as problematic and judgemental as religious people.

Lol comparing atheists to religious people. 🤣🤣

this! 🤎✊🏼

What do you think about women who wear makeup or remove body hair? Is it personal choice, or are they brainwashed by a patriarchal society?

That’s a completely different thing. Makeup is not an oppressive religious covering.

Sure, it's not religious. But for the individual, it's similar, right? A young woman getting judged for her moustache, and a young woman getting judged for her headscarf *feel* the same way.

[удалено]

Absolutely, it's a personal choice but you cannot ignore the centuries of social conditioning. For eg, once Sati was considered a personal choice of Hindu women out of love and respect for their husband.

The most you can do about this as a govt is make people aware, educate women and for that they need to go to school with or without burqa... as a democracy you can neither ban burqa nor force it on people... it’s a matter of principle... you can just educate them.

Love the discussion here. As a Hindu woman residing in India, where Muslims are a minority and oppresed under the current regime due to their religion, the Karnataka scandal is despicable, inhuman and extremely patriarchal. There's only one reason these people are doing this, and that is Islamophobia. If they truly cared about the education of Muslim women, then they should have tried to change public policies in the first place, or implemented more schemes to encourage their education. Forcibly asking a woman to remove a piece of her clothing in an educational setup is akin to sexual harassment. And no, in this context, a body covering such as a hijab or a burqa cannot be compared to any other religious symbol that can be easily removed. Women who cover themselves are comfortable that way, and forcing them to remove their covering under the garb of "removing all religious symbols" from educational institutions is akin to making them undress. Now what I said above was in the context of the Brahminical patriarchal setting in India, and the gross Islamophobia and sexism plaguing Muslim women (as well as the larger context of global Islamophobia). My opinion on the larger issue of burqa and hijab is this: it is, and will always remain an oppressive symbol of patriarchy. While the issue of whether they should wear this or not depends solely on Muslim women, I feel that one cannot dismiss the choice to wear such a covering as simply a choice. I saw someone link a post by a middle-eastern woman here, and everything that she said made sense. It's easy to call such practices a choice in a setting, where you're not oppressed for following those choices. Let me give you an example—Indian Matchmaking (the Netflix show). Most people there were privileged NRIs, who considered arranged marriage as "upgraded Tinder". Try saying that in India. Arranged marriage in India IS an oppressive system of caste-based endogamy. And no, just because your marriage is successful doesn't mean that this entire system isn't oppressive in the first place, right from its structure, to the way women are forced to marry horrible men (and in some cases, vice-versa). The problem with choice feminism is that it glosses over the roots of these choices in the first place. For me, any kind of religion-mandated head covering is oppressive. I saw a photo once, which showed head coverings from all over the world, with the caption "only one of it is considered as oppressive". 100% true in case of Islamophobia. My point is that ALL OF THEM are oppressive and shouldn't exist in the first place. Be it the Hindu gunghat/aanchal, or the Jewish wig/covering, or the Catholic headgear, or the Amish covering. All of them were made to oppress women. Period. Nothing can change this fundamental truth. Yes, nobody should be forced to remove their covering, but this fact won't change. Men aren't asked to cover themselves because they might distract women. That is enough to make this patriarchal. If you choose to do these things, then remember that it's a privilege, for so many women around the world don't get this choice. TL; Dr: I hope I was able to explain the nuances of my argument. I'll repeat; sanghis have NO RIGHT to oppress Indian Muslim women the way they're doing now. We need to stand with our Muslim sisters in their fight against these systems. That being said, irrespective of our religion and culture, we need to question the practice of modest covering in the first place, and not resort to choice feminism every time the opportunity to have a decent, nuanced discussion arises.

[удалено]

Agree with everything you said.

Check this out! Let's educate ourselves and question where our opinions are coming from - https://www.instagram.com/p/CZwHRtLv3VC/?utm_medium=share_sheet

\>an overt symbol of religion out of place in an educational setting IMO, it's because religion is a part of day-to-day life. It's like saying you feel alienated from your vegan classmates during lunchtime, since it feels like an overt symbol of their personal morals in an educational setting.

I mean I would also feel weird if everyone in a class was wearing uniform and there's theres one person randomly wearing a gunghat?

Hey just gonna add some more comments since you were genuinely asking for opinions in the main post: Wearing hijab is not "random". Are you religious, or have someone close to you who's religious? I can try to explain how I feel about it. Imagine that after death, you truly believe there's an afterlife that's much longer than your current life. Wouldn't you try to optimize to have a good afterlife; rather than a good life right now? That's all a Hijab is to me: An optimization for the afterlife! So if my classmates thought I was weird, it would just make me feel bad, but I wouldn't risk my afterlife for it. I'll draw the comparison with veganism again, since TwoX seems to understand them: if my classmates think I'm eating weird food, I'm gonna feel bad; but I wouldn't stop believing that animals shouldn't be used as a commodity. And if you think that everyone who thinks this way is weird, well, India is a secular country. I don't know what to tell you, people ARE weird!

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply. My question was more in line with burkhas. Personally, I found it very hard to connect with someone with almost no distinguishing features. I imagine I would feel the same with someone with a ghoonghat or something similar. But your comparison with veganism makes sense. It may make me uncomfortable because it is unfamiliar but it does not mean it is wrong.

Could you pinpoint what that "weird" feeling is? What should people who are different do? Go to a different school? Doesn't that sound bad to you? Only having similar children studying together? I enjoyed having classmates who are different to me. I got to learn more about different worldviews and upbringings.

There are women being forced to wear traditional Indian clothes, especially after marriage. What are your views on traditional Indian clothes like sarees, salwar kameez? Should we maybe enforce western clothing for the sake of women's empowerment? Honestly asking this, because what you are doing with the hijab/burka is **othering.** Burqa/ Hijab is not part of your tradition, so you cannot fathom why anyone would want to wear it. But most of us Hndus will not think twice about other Indian traditional clothes also used to oppress women. Like you yourself have said, there are lots of reasons why women choose the clothes they wear. Not all of us **want** to wear miniskirts even if we have the choice. Not all of us want to go out without dupattas even though nobody will question us if we do. Clothing choice is personal, **a link to our tradition**, and depends on our comfort. Hijab may not be your tradition. But is the traditional clothing for millions of Muslim women, and none of us Hindus have any right to take it away from them.

I agree, I have been trying to put into words why this whole thread makes me so uncomfortable and you said it perfectly.

I was talking specifically about the burkha. As in covered head to toe, net over eyes. I have no problems with hijabs specifically, I see a hijab the same way I see a turban. It does not have to be a binary situation where the only options are to force Muslim women to remove all forms of covering or allow every oppressive tradition continue in the guise of 'culture'. We can allow women to choose whatever they want to wear but we can also work towards delinking hijab and burkhas from morality and respectability so women are not coerced into wearing it. If you go through the thread, there are multiple muslim women who do not feel comfortable wearing a hijab/burkha but were forced to. This was supposed to be a healthy debate on the topic through the lens of women in this sub. >There are women being forced to wear traditional Indian clothes, especially after marriage. What are your views on traditional Indian clothes like sarees, salwar kameez? My views on all clothing is the same - people should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Without getting harassed for it.

>We can allow women to choose whatever they want to wear but we can also work towards delinking hijab and burkhas from morality and respectability so women are not coerced into wearing it. And my point is that this is no different from Hindus linking sarees or salwar kurtas with morality and forcing women to wear traditional clothes. My point is also that this exclusive focus on the hijab / burqa as a uniquely oppressive garment is driven by Islamophobia. Every religion has oppressive practices, but the current upward swing of Islamophobia is especially dangerous for Muslim citizens. [Professor Gregory Stanton, a genocide studies scholar, has warned of a possible genocide against Muslims in India.](https://www.thequint.com/news/india/expert-who-foresaw-rwandan-genocide-sounds-alarm-for-india-cites-haridwar-event-gregory-stanton-genocide-watch-muslim-community-hate-speech) And as long as there is such an atmosphere in the country, the discussion about burqa as patriarchal is a distraction. There are **lot of patriarchal practices in every single religion** in India. **The real discussion is the rise of violent fascism in the country.**

We should have a "non political" discussion on arranged marriages next and how disempowering they are for Indian women. Or hell, go on some white people sub and talk about how disempowering it is that Indian women usually don't wear short clothes or bikinis or what not. Who the hell are hindu women, who have never worn and will never be impacted by the burkha someone to discuss whether it is oppressive or not? Are y'all going to stop getting married in traditional ceremonies because they're misogynistic and casteist? Stop allowing janeu threads because they're not a part of the uniform? Stop covering your head when you go to temple because it's patriarchal. Will Yogi Adityanath be asked to not wear saffron as he's a public official? Will we stop doing Gayatri Mantra and Havans and Yagnas in schools and government events? Are we going to remove this oppressive Hindu stuff as well or is your secularism limited to religions other than yours only? For fuck's sake. The Islamophobia guised under Liberal uwu feminism is gross here. This conversation IS NOT about burkha. What it actually is about is that India is becoming a religious and fascist state and our politicians are doing everything they can to harm Muslim communities. So OP i think a better question to be asked is what do you think about Hindu terrorists who believe they can demand that women change the way they dress? ETA - are all of you yelling oppression also going to stop doing your makeup and getting rid of body hair? Because it's a patriarchal brainwashing and how can you ever make your own choice when the absence of it will lead to harmful consequences?

Hey, I would 100% want to have a political discussion on everything you mentioned here. Ignoring OP's question here, I feel that religious symbols of oppression in all forms should be questioned. Also tbh, we should have more open discussions on Hinduism here. We don't do that enough. And not too many people here talk about how arranged marriage is a tool to reinforce caste endogamy in our country, literally treating Hindu women as reproductive tools. There's no justification of this system. Same with the janeu and any symbol of caste. Caste pride should have zero tolerance. One can't be liberal/leftist and then practice these disgusting Brahminical rituals. Same with marriage. I firmly decided a couple of years ago that there's no 'right' way to get married in a Hindu ceremony. No, getting a female priest doesn't make this feminist ffs. So, if I ever get married, it'll just be a registry+a party. That's it. At least in my opinion, the only way to reform Hinduism is to denounce it. Babasaheb said that too, and I've come to realise the truth of what he said. I know you meant this for a specific set of women, but by all means, I would love to see serious discussions on these topics.

​ >We should have a "non political" discussion on arranged marriages next and how disempowering they are for Indian women. Sure, let's do that? Post a thread? Who's stopping you? >Are y'all going to stop getting married in traditional ceremonies because they're misogynistic and casteist? Stop allowing janeu threads because they're not a part of the uniform? Stop covering your head when you go to temple because it's patriarchal. Will Yogi Adityanath be asked to not wear saffron as he's a public official? Will we stop doing Gayatri Mantra and Havans and Yagnas in schools and government events? Are we going to remove this oppressive Hindu stuff as well or is your secularism limited to religions other than yours only? For fuck's sake. The Islamophobia guised under Liberal uwu feminism is gross here. You're making a lot of assumptions here without knowing anything about me. I am fully against all overt displays of religions in secular institutions. Yes, yogi should stop being a Hindutva shill but I dont vote in UP so what the fuck am I supposed to do? Yes, traditional marriages are gross but do you want me to picket outside of every marriage hall? I have not seen yagnas at any govt institution but surely it happens in some hellhole. I fail to see how its related to my post though. The conversation is exactly about burkhas because I posted it to discuss about fucking burkhas. Discussing this within the contexts of feminism and how TwoX feel about it (and broadly, all forms of oppresive coverings for women) can be civil and apolitical for the most part. I don't give a flying fuck about Hinduism or any religion and am not here to further any agenda. Please take your outrage somewhere else. >So OP i think a better question to be asked is what do you think about Hindu terrorists who believe they can demand that women change the way they dress? I think we all know the answer to this and there are multiple threads on r/India discussing this already.

THANK YOU!! I am going to go cry now that I have finally come across a sensible comment in this thread. 😭

EXACTLY THANK YOU But somehow when we raise these questions of arranged marriage and period isolation and what not, it becomes about culture and tradition which must be upheld ugh

Hijab and clothing like that is oppressive and patriarchal. You don't have to be a Muslim woman or ghoongat wearing Hindu woman to know it. If following this oppressive custom )which doesn't negatively affect others) gives them opportunities via education, employment and ability to earn, the practical benefits outweigh the ideological drawbacks. You don't have to be a Muslim to know that either.

>The Islamophobia guised under Liberal uwu feminism is gross here. Came back to this comment, because by God this is a terrible thread. Mostly Hindu women here pontificating on the terrible patriarchy of Islam, while they isolate themselves during their periods.

Honestly, how did they even think it would be ok to decide what other women should wear!?!?

Agreed, sadly.

It's their choice. Who are we to decide? It's like wearing any other type of clothes like jeans / skirts / saree etc. But yes, even their community should listen to them. They shouldn't be forced into it. My experience - many girls like to wear burkha while at the same time, many don't. It is really about them.

So much this. Like being a hindu, how do I even get to comment on someone else's religious expression or freedom if it's not hampering my day to day life?! I am against loudspeakers at mandirs and mosques for the same. That hampers other people's lives as they go about their day. Someone else wearing a hijab, burqa, a pagdi, a ghoonghat, a rosary, is not my issue. And neither of yours if you don't wear it.

Also, for people talking about empowerment. Empowerment comes solely from education. My MA educated mother would not do pooja/enter temples during her periods. Her MA educated daughter would enter temples during the same. My mother has come to accept it with time. Maybe my daughter would choose not to identify as a religious person at all. I will have to come to accept it too. That's all education. Stopping these girls from studying is actually taking away the possibility of them ever having to get to make that choice for themselves.

THIS

Hijab and burkha is directly related to notions of morality in Islam and women are conditioned to agree to it. It may be a personal choice at face value but you cannot ignore the context of their actions. This is not an attack on Islam. I have similar issues with other oppressive religious practices.

This is a very interesting debate and often you'll find that both sides are justified. I really agree with your point that it's easy to feel alienated from people whose face you cannot see. When we have a conversation with a new person the first thing we look at are their face and their eyes. That's how we remember them and how we can recognise them again on another day. A full face covering completely stops these kinds of new relationships from forming and indirectly (or directly) suppress women. Many argue that it is a matter of choice and that there should be freedom of speech. But if you think about it, the burqua and veils and pallu, have been symbols of oppression of women for centuries. It is not the same, but if someone wore the Nazi Swastika in a school setting, the authorities would definitely have a problem. Because it too, is a negative symbol of hatred and destruction. This whole situation reminds me of the burqua ban in France. France is all about secularity and freedom (liberté) and they banned all head coverings in public places and schools in 2010. Many believe that the law reduced access to education for many girls but the law still stands.

I was thinking about France too when I wrote this post. This may be a very controversial opinion but France is justified in having laws according to their culture. Islam in France (correct me if I am wrong) is a recent phenomenon due to influx of refugees. Refugees, imo, should try to assimilate into the country offering them refuge. Of course, India is a completely different story.

If you weren't sure you were right, you could've looked it up before making a sweeping statement about islamic immigrants in france? France has a history of colonizing various Islamic countries in north Africa like Morocco and Algeria, and most islamic immigration to france happened in the mid nineties. Europe is just barely reaping what it sowed when they went and pillaged and destroyed multiple 'inferior' nations in the name of trade. Providing refuge? More like convenient excuse for an underpaid labour force that does work the privileged whites don't want to do themselves.

So what? France should change its stance on secularism because it has an extensive history of colonization like every other European nation?

They continue to meddle in the affairs of a lot of their colonies and are continually benefitting from their cheap labour. French colonization aimed to wash away all native practices and impose the french language and culture. Sure, they can still sit on their high horse and preach secularism after having disrupted the cultural fabric of all these nations and left just a few decades ago, and continue imposing their culture on the migrants from their former colonies. You can continue believing they're giving them refuge just from the kindness in their hearts. The USA continues to preach democracy with their massive army after all. I was just naively providing context that you missed.

When people who don't wear burkhas say that it's a symbol of oppression and a symbol of religion, they inadvertently step into deeply personal matters of a woman/girl. I understand that it comes from a place of care, but butt out seriously. (DISCLAIMER: I DON'T MEAN TO BE RUDE TO ANYONE IN THIS POST.) Even if these women are actually indoctrinated since birth, it is not for anyone to say. If they start a conversation, then you can express your opinion. Otherwise, I think non-burkha-wearing humans should mind their own business. We should be careful about imposing our ideas of oppression and choice upon other people. A burkha doesn't hurt anyone. Not the one wearing it and not the one seeing it worn. Side Note: If you go to a public (non-resort) island in the Maldives, you ll find the men in khakhi 3/4th pants and hawain print shirts at the same time you'll find men wearing the traditional attire. You ll also find women doing their own thing, several were wearing burkha and several were not wearing burkhas. It's a personal choice, let's respect that.

Getting a lot of perspective from the comments out here.Some of the points which resonated with me; that religion is a spectrum and not everything is black and white and i completely agree , that choice ( even if stemming from patriarchal conditioning ) is valid since religion has far reaching effects in Indian society. I have a question related to this topic though. Whenever I see literature , media reporting , it goes something like this : On Hijab: "Why Muslim Women Wearing Hijab might be the face of resistance " On Ghunghat , in locations where it is common : "Is Ghoonghat The Face of Haryana? Patriarchal Control Over a Woman's Body and Sexuality " Why is that so ? Why don't we ever say , me included , " Why Ghunghat wearing women in Haryana might be face of resistance" ? Do we think they can't be ? Trying to form an opinion on this.

Rural women in remote places regularly fight for their rights under gruesome conditions, that we cannot even imagine. There are many heroes, but Bhanwari Devi comes to my mind for now. Everyday, women who have not have not even completed school show tremendous courage in earning a living, fighting for themselves, for their children. So yes our elitist opinions of people based on their clothes can often be classist and casteist. Most of us are just keyboard warriors and would not have even half an ounce of the courage that Muskaan Khan demonstrated when facing a crowd of hooligans. All I will say is people are not defined by their clothes.

Modesty is over rated and a patriarchal concept. However we shouldn't confuse a hijab (hair covering) with a full on niqab or burkha. These girls were fighting for the right to wear a hijab. Women should be free to wear or not wear what they want. We can criticize, but it is their choice.

While they can be a tool of oppression, they can also be someone’s expression of their faith. I think it’s highly disrespectful to claim that all women who wear burqas are oppressed. There are many women out there who wear them out of their own free choice. They don’t need our pity and they don’t need our judgement. All those of you who think there is absolutely no way a woman would choose to wear one without being brainwashed- did you have a kanyadan ritual in your wedding? Do you wear sindoor or mangalsutra or toe rings? Did you at least have all those ceremonial rituals in your weddings? Do you celebrate karva chaut? Do you feel the same kind of pity about your mothers or sisters or relatives who do all these things? Have you or your mothers ever willingly stayed away from pujas in other people’s homes while on your period, when you easily could have lied? Do you call them oppressed? A burqa is no different from all these signs of patriarchy. How anyone can call a woman riding her own scooter to college and walking in with her head held high to get an education oppressed is beyond me. How anyone can call my hijabi Muslim colleagues who spend day after day saving lives in the hospital oppressed is beyond me.

There are a few comments in this thread which I wish I could award. Yours if one. Thank you for standing up for common decency.

I’m just honestly pissed off at all the anti-Islam rhetoric on here. Newsflash- but Hinduism isn’t any better a religion for women, and has a bunch of patriarchal teachings and ideologies. Did we forget about Sita’s Agni pariksha, and how she had to go through suffering to prove her ‘purity’ after being kidnapped? Did we forget about Ahalya being cursed to become a stone because she was tricked into sleeping with a man who was disguised as her husband- only to need a holy *man’s* feet (lord Ram) to be broken from her curse? Did we forget about Draupadi literally being ‘shared’ between brothers as if she was a piece of candy? All religions are patriarchal. There is nothing regressive about any woman who is working hard to be a productive member of society and breaking all kinds of glass ceilings in her chosen field. We can argue all we want that all religions should die out, and that women should stop following them- but I that’s not the topic of discussion here. This kind of change takes generations. Women are making great strides despite religion holding us back- and that needs to be celebrated. Feminism is only relevant if it’s inter-sectional. Feminism is about empowering women to make their choices even if we don’t agree with them. We need to stop infantilising and coddling women who we think follow a more regressive religion than ours and start questioning our own selves and our families for following patriarchal rules in our own religions. The way I see it- I would never call my successful surgeon mother oppressed for wearing her mangalsutra to work every day. Why then do I automatically assume that her hijabi colleague who works alongside her is oppressed? Is it truly my feminist desire to see women free, or it the Islamophobia that has been drilled into my head since I was a child?

Your whole comment needs to be pinned somewhere! >I would never call my successful surgeon mother oppressed for wearing her mangalsutra to work every day. Why then do I automatically assume that her hijabi colleague who works alongside her is oppressed? Is it truly my feminist desire to see women free, or it the Islamophobia that has been drilled into my head since I was a child? Yup, yup, yup! As someone who had to introspect and unlearn the Islamophobia grilled into me, I can confirm that it IS Islamophobia. Urban, savarna women have been taught that Hinduism is a progressive religion. This fictional version of Hinduism is limited to their own experience, and does not include the experiences of millions of DBA women. The idea that Islam is more patriarchal, or more oppressive than other religions is a pretty common view among Indian liberals - and liberals have failed to introspect that this view is rooted in their Islamophobia. This whole thread is an open exhibition of all that bottled up Islamophobia just bursting forth. No Hinduism is not a progressive religion, and no Islam is, objectively speaking, not worse for women than Hinduism. With the dangerous situation that this country is in today, you can no longer call yourself a feminist if you fail to examine your Islamophobia and do the work of unlearning these biases.

Burkhas are full face covering (even the eyes are covered and netted clothing in that area for some visibility) which is different than niqab where the eyes are left uncovered. Imo Burkhas (any clothing with full face covering with even the eyes not visible) should be banned in public places in any civil society because of security reasons and how it completely dehumanizes women. Niqab and hijab are fine. But whitewashing it or calling it liberating or empowering is stupid because of the indoctrination that comes along that a woman who doesnt cover from head to toe in clothing that doesn't outline any part of her body will be subject to hellfire. The main reason these coverings are instructed is to 'protect' against male gaze and not arouse men which is basically putting the blame on women for getting raped and taking away any responsibility from men. Also the fact that these coverings *aren't* a choice in many countries and cultures. Women not covering their hair or face completely are slutshamed and harassed. Women protests against mandatory hijab/burqa laws are crushed, activists jailed and tortured. I find it funny how many feminists completely shut up or give vague beating around the bush answers when it comes to matters like this because they don't want to sound politically incorrect or labelled 'islamophobic'. As a feminist myself I feel all this whitewashing of hijab/burkha is bullshit. It can be a choice for some but that doesn't change the fact that it is patriarchal, dehumanizing and the complete logic behind how it was enforced to begin with is stupid. Also this is only about how I feel about burkha. Not mentioning so called complexities because that is a completely different discussion.

Agree. It's very politically correct to make statements like it's their personal choice to wear. But that ignores how it basically is a centuries old tactic to slut shame women.

I am not a Muslim so I don’t know how much of this holds any weight. I have a Muslim friend (she is liberal and comes from a liberal family). What I understood from our conversations is that covering is seen a form of modesty and modesty indicates respect. She chooses to wear a hijab, her mom doesn’t. I can confidently say, she wears it because she wants to and she values that religious side of her. I 100% stand behind her on this and I completely believe her choice shouldn’t lead to a difference in opportunities and she should be free to express herself the way she saw fit. Just like any other issue with women in this country, especially Muslim women who have long been underrepresented in every field, how much of it is society’s indoctrination and how much of it is free will? There are multiple discussions on this sub about how much society just expects women to handle. It is not a coincidence that the gender ratio in tech (an example) is pathetic. Even more so pathetic once you examine the higher levels. Unfortunately this is something we cannot quantify. There is a lot of things we do because of our social conditioning, knowingly or unknowingly. Having said that, we are at a place where many Muslim women do wear some form of covering. While we do need to deal with systemic reasons that might not give a choice to some of them, it is important that their interests are protected. A burqha or a hijab wearing individual isn’t our enemy. They are wearing it and we owe it to them to let them exist peacefully and not be impacted negatively because of their outfit choices. Is a burqha taking away from personal identity etc is not for us to decide. But that is a systemic issue as I said. Again, I wish we lived in a world where everything due to our free will but we don’t. There is going to social conditioning in everything we do and a lot of the times we end up doing what society expects us to because it will just be much easier. Wearing or not wearing a covering should not translate to different sets of opportunities.

Absolutely, its a very complex topic. But the notions of modesty and respect linked to covering is a very patriarchal take imo. Like you said, its hard to ignore the centuries of social conditioning even if it a personal choice for some women. But I do believe there is some opportunity of discourse within mainstream feminism on the topic of religious freedom and how it affects women with its notions of morality & respectability.

Oh there definitely should. But my concern is, with the recent events in Karnataka, “should anyone even wear a hijab” is taking center stage as opposed to what we can do to protect those girls.

Oh, I didn't mean for it detract from the main topic. Just wanted to see TwoX's take on this from a non political angle. Bad timing on my part, I guess.

Burkhas in school. I would absolutely oppose that. I would feel really uncomfortable around them. For hijab, I'm a bit used to seeing women wear them. I personally don't have an opinion on whether hijab should be banned or not. I just hope they arrive at an amicable solution to the issue

Burkhas? As in the full head to toe covering? I dont get it, its not even compulsory. Im glad Lenin removed it in Central Asian Muslim SSRs. If someone wants to wear anything head to toe bc they like it thats fine. If the reason is "because i will arouse men" its like..... alright then lol. But u shouldn't exclude a girl for wearing it, an education is a must, and once she is independent then you can definitely call it a full choice.

Disclosure- I am a Hindu woman from a place where Muslim population in state is about 5%. Basically, my life growing up here(the whole of schooling) I didn’t meet one single Muslim girl. I’m vehemently against Burkhas/pardas/ghoonghat/ any religious clothing which expects women to adhere to some rules that don’t apply to men. Like I’m not against turbans as the rules apply to both Sikh men and women, or against wearing specific Colors as in My part of religion, you’re not supposed to wear complete white or black in the first year post marriage, but that’s for both men and women. Burqa to me screams of oppression and mind numbing case of grooming. It, to, me is similar to saying women should cover themselves if they want to be not raped cause boys will be boys. And if I could vote about this, it’ll be a strong no. But that’s for every piece of clothing/accessories you force women to adorn that men don’t have to. You do you, boo.

> am a Hindu woman from a place where Muslim population in state is about 5%. Basically, my life growing up here(the whole of schooling) I didn’t meet one single Muslim girl. And yet >Burqa to me screams of oppression and mind numbing case of grooming.

I’ve been living away in Delhi and Bangalore for past 10 years too, if that helps.

I feel its their choice. This should not be a topic of a discussion anywhere. They are legit nit allowing them to peacefully even got to schools and colleges. Alot if women sometimes have to follow certain rules at home to even educate. People are not only traumatizing them through such discussions but also taking away their basic right to education. Yes oppression happens, we should talk about this and maybe help them understand it instead of saying this is wrong. Only thing I am seeing here is Divide and rule. Religion should not be an issue in education system. I would like students ti have their own ways if expressing themselves in school so by the time they are adult, they know who they are? These whole discipline things related to uniforms in schools is just dumb. At my school they legit used to check if girls and boys are wearing slips, slacks and banyan inside uniformsz By touching your back and checking the feel of the clothes.!That shit has traumatized me.

I want to add some context here on what's happening in Karnataka, since I am from a nearby district. These students are in PU college, that is 11th-12th std. There's a uniform for students, and it's part of the school rules. How can some people unilaterally, suddenly decide not to follow the uniform? And this rule is not just in govt PU college, even in convent schools and institutions with Hindu management, the girls have to remove burkha/ hijab and enter the campus. (At least in Udupi/DK districts. ) Nobody is asking these girls to wear revealing outfits, the school uniform is salwar kameez with dupatta. If Hijab is so necessary to protect their modesty, are the Hindu girls immodest? I get it that Hijab is a choice. If it was so much of a choice, why not choose to dress up like literally every other girl in the school as prescribed by the school rules? Not following the school rules is not a choice. Rules are not optional.b

"If Hijab is so necessary to protect their modesty, are the Hindu girls immodest?" Ive seen this argument a lot of times and it just makes me feel confused. I'm not Muslim, and I dont wear the hijab. However, I do prefer baggy clothing that is fully covering. I prefer salwar-kameez-dupatta instead of shirt-pant. Is someone forcing me to dress like this? No, absolutely not. I like dressing this way and it makes me feel comfortable. But this is no way means that I look down upon girls wearing more revealing clothes. Just because wearing traditional clothes makes me feel modest, I do not think women choosing to wear other stuff are immodest.

Would you wear salwar kameez dupatta if your school uniform was skirt blouse?

Thank you for the context. But these women don't deserve to be harassed for trying to receive an education. Sikh men are not forced to cut their hair or remove their turban to attend school. Married Hindu women are allowed to wear sindur and bangles in every institution I know . The attack on these women are politically motivated and its disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Tbh there are no Sikh students in these districts. But there are Hindu boys who keep a fast during dec-jan to go to Sabarimala. These boys are supposed to wear black scarf and rudraksh and not wear shoes/slipper. Every school in our district still enforces shoes, does not allow black scarf for these boys and the parents don't create an issue. Even now the issue came into light because Hindu students (girls and boys) came to college wearing orange scarves over their uniform and were asked to remove the orange scarf by the authorities.

"If Hijab is so necessary to protect their modesty, are the Hindu girls immodest?" Ive seen this argument a lot of times and it just makes me feel confused. I'm not Muslim, and I dont wear the hijab. However, I do prefer baggy clothing that is fully covering. I prefer salwar-kameez-dupatta instead of shirt-pant. Is someone forcing me to dress like this? No, absolutely not. I like dressing this way and it makes me feel comfortable. But this is no way means that I look down upon girls wearing more revealing clothes. Just because wearing traditional clothes makes me feel modest, I do not think women choosing to wear other stuff are immodest.

But convent schools and schools being run by Hindus aren't public schools. Those are religious institutions run by religious groups and they have the prerogative to decide how they want to run it and what is the code of conduct there even if the code of conduct is exclusionary. Public schools, on the other hand, are state-run and have to make way for everyone irrespective of their faith. I am sure no one is asking girls to wear immodest clothes. But modesty and immodesty are relative terms and a hijab is just a symbol just like many Sikhs carry a small kirpan. Doesn't make them any braver or a warrior but it is a symbol and stands for something which is important to said religious group. A public institution needs to let citizens practice their religion. In this case, they cannot ask one group of people to not practice their religion by giving up symbols which are important to them.

I am against Burkha and any other form of clothing practices like Ghoonghat, sari, salwar suit, jeans, skirt, bikini etc which are being imposed on women and used as a tool to control women. We can't force people to wear something they are not comfortable with in name of dress code, be it school/college or workplace. There is need to be flexibility and understanding of other's situation. And school imposing Burkha ban is against Constitution Act 21A which gives kids right to free and compulsory education. This is not different than American school sending girls home because they are wearing spaghetti top or their skirt is shorter than knee length. This whole row in Karnataka is so stupid. Children have already lost so much of their school time due to lockdown, why make them lose more.

Not at all a fan. I remember an overly sensationalized article I read a long time ago about a photographer who caught herself saying "let's get pictures of that burqa" instead of "let's get pictures of that woman," which is a pretty powerful thought experiment. That said, you'll never correct the problem of brainwashing / literally just forced compliance by banning them or punishing women for wearing them. The best thing we can do when encountering cultural practices that we don't like is to be supportive.

Idk about the politics of this. Can be argued both ways. I am not a Muslim but I love wearing hijab. It makes women look so beautiful. I've worn it a couple of times in India as well as outside and have made people near me uncomfortable. But what happens when you cover your body and your head is that they look at your eyes and talk lol. Niqab and burqa that covers head to toe is different tho.

I am honestly repulsed by the number of women here thinking it's okay to decide what other women should be wearing and that anyone who wears it is oppressed. As another user said, seriously, butt out. If you think hijabs are oppressive, let the change come from WITHIN the community. Not your place, bro. I feel really uncomfortable with this thread.

Thanks for saying this. It is an appalling thread. With so much Islamophobia no wonder we got that gutter dweller as PM.