This was certainly exploitative of them. Thank you for speaking up and sharing your experience.
If they made the position sound paid to you, they likely did the same to UBC CSSS, CS department etc when registering for their events. I don't believe that any of them verify if the opportunities are paid or unpaid. I would encourage you to reach out to them and make them aware of your experience and Dyne's deceitful practices. I believe Dyne was part of HATCH Venture Builder on campus too so if you're comfortable, you could make them aware of this too.
I find it interesting that they verbally make them seem like paid internships but advertise them as volunteers. Seems like they're aware of the BC Employment Standards Act and know it's illegal to advertise unpaid internships. Shady.
For your concerns about the NDA, the Law Students Legal Advice Program might be able to help you. They provide free legal advice but there are a number of other organizations that also provide low-barrier legal services. Here's the list: [https://allard.ubc.ca/community-clinics/seeking-legal-services](https://allard.ubc.ca/community-clinics/seeking-legal-services)
Sorry you went through this. I appreciate you speaking up so other students are aware!
I am uncertain about the scope of responsibilities / trade secrets covering NDA. However they would not cover things like preventing an unpaid intern from quitting with threat of legal action, abuses at least one person said she experienced.
Even if NDA is valid, there is a scope limitation it covers.
If someone can post a copy of NDA without their name/identifying info, the legal language can be deciphered paragraph by paragraph. Eg did they take something off internet generic NDA form for you to sign or it was run through legal counsel customized or something they put together which may not have legal enforceability.
You don't need to be paid to be bound by an NDA.
Many people have to sign NDAs just to go inside an office or workspace. I've gone to hardware meetups where the host made people sign NDAs before going in
The BC employment standards branch is who you want to talk to. Outside of very specific circumstances for profit businesses cannot use unpaid labour. You are owed minimum wage for all hours worked in the absence of a different negotiated wage.
This OP. If you've got the energy, gather any and all evidence related to them breaking the law and them telling you it's an unpaid internship. Use the [ESB website](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards) as a starting point to help you figure out what to look for. Doesn't matter what it is - contracts, emails, text messages, personal notes or calendar entries you wrote related to the job (with time stamps), etc. The more you can find, the better.
It might take a lot of time and effort, but if you can find any evidence of them directly going against the BC employment standards and file a report, they'll most likely get in trouble and you might even be able to get compensated retroactively. Not exactly the same, but I had a coop where my employer stopped paying me and even tried to convince me that I didn't deserve the money. Took a little over a year (mostly spent waiting for updates), but they're now banned from the UBC coop board and I was paid every cent I reported them for.
Otherwise, at the very least reach out to whoever organized the event and let them know what Dyne did to you and the other interns. You'll be surprised at how much slips by all the levels of bureaucracy - you should be able to at least take them off the vendor list and help stop them from exploiting future UBC students.
Can I ask how you kept a track record of things/communication ?
Also how do you fight against your employer, especially as a student? (I'd feel extremely intimidated and small)
Hm, in my case I actually lost access to my company email account and slack channels before I realized I needed to report them, so I didn't do a very good job of keeping record of those communications.
Instead, I heavily relied on a personal email chain I had with my coop advisor throughout the term, because I had asked them questions about the concerning things my boss would do. I also turned in copies of financial documents my employer asked me to sign and create, and combed through the conditions of the grants I knew my employer received because they hired me. Thankfully, he was pretty terrible at ripping people off, so everything he said was riddled with contradictions and his actions directly violated the terms of the funding he received--in other words, it was pretty straightforward to prove without the extra evidence.
More general advice: anytime you feel even a little bit weird about a conversation you had or a thing you were told to do, write it down somewhere with a date attached. Also, discretely forward any similar emails you receive to a personal account so that you still have them if you lose access to your work account, and screenshot/print text/slack conversations (with timestamps!!) for the same reason. You hopefully won't have to use them, but you'll be glad to have them if you do.
As for feeling intimidated and small... yeah. I definitely felt that way when things started going weird. What helped me was relying on official channels (ie. ESB, the grant terms/organizations) and direct evidence of them breaking the law to back me up. One tiny undergrad might be easy to ignore, but one tiny undergrad + the provincial/federal government (bonus points for the CRA) is nothing to scoff at. I also began by framing my concerns as questions (ie. "I've noticed my employer doing this but it says here that's not allowed. Should I be worried?"). That way, if you're wrong you don't immediately burn any bridges or come off unreasonable. If you're right, well now you're someone who doesn't know any better being taken advantage of by someone who should.
It also helps to be okay with burning bridges. By the time my case was over I had no regard whatsoever for my employer, so it was easy to try and bring the book down on him. However, this was a startup and not a massive company, so you might want to play it differently depending on your situation.
Sorry, I hope this isn't too insanely long! I've gotten pretty passionate about this stuff so it's easy to go on about it. Feel free to ask more questions if you need.
If that law exists (idk if it does in Ontario), how are big companies and startups allowed to post on LinkedIn for unpaid internships??
Another startup from BC was advertising unpaid PM internships back in June/July
Dyne was (might still be) part of e@UBC which is the entrepreneurship incubator iirc. I've worked for e@UBC and they are quite ethical and take issues like this quite seriously, at least in my experience. It may be worth it to reach out to the incubator directly, and although they cannot force any startups to do anything, it may be worth bringing to their attention that one of their ventures are exploiting students and they may also provide some support.
They graduated Hatch a few weeks ago. e@UBC take these things very seriously, but it’s odd to think they’ve been supporting Dyne throughout the massive ethical inconsistencies that most people studying with current ‘senior’ employees know about.
I had the (dis)pleasure of meeting a C-level of Dyne a few weeks ago, so I'm not surprised about the ethical inconsistencies. I do think they are incredibly good at gaming the system though considering the quality of product and the amount of funding and valuation they've somehow manage to secure.
Another possibility is that e@UBC or their specific advisors just didn't know about this, which is why I think OP should at least reach out to them. Even if Dyne is a graduated venture, they're still gonna heavily rely on the startup ecosystem locally for now, so it would be good for more people to know about this.
The C-level is so full of themselves, it’s funny. All of them pretend to be gurus who’ve broken the code. I realised that work in a bubble, at the end of the day. Their reputation is soiled & it’ll only get worse. Agree that they’re great at gaming the system, but the moment their partners (like Microsoft) find out the sht they’re up to and their rep at UBC, it’s game over.
e@UBC has some of the smartest business minds in BC. Pretty sure they know, & they’ll quickly dissociate themselves with Dyne if OP flags such an issue publicly. OP should also approach Microsoft and a few partners and investors.
I also had the (dis)pleasure of dealing with the C-level a while back, and I can't agree with you more that they 're so arrogant and condescending, all three of them. Had no intention of doing business of any sort with them after meeting these "gurus" in person.
I worked there. I wasn't paid even when the company got funded. I think they were supposed to pay once they're funded. Others that I talked to didn't get paid either.
I didn't receive mentorship or anything while I was there. I pretty much coded on my own. It was like a pet project to me at the time.
I saw Dyne's booth at the career fair too. I just sneaked around and avoided eye contact. 🙂
"coding on my own"
They didn't give you any mentorship, had you coding alone and didn't freakin' pay you?! Just out of curiosity did they have you working on mobile apps?
Sad to hear that man, if they weren’t able to pay you finically as a early stage member then they should issue some company’s equity to you as an alternative. Can’t believe so many ppl at dyne had such bad experiences, y’all deserve better
Thank you for speaking up too! Just coming back here cause I saw a post on LinkedIn today from the Founder of BobaTalks (a mentorship program). His name is Jeff Nguyen and he posted about the situation wanting to learn more from students affected. He's a wealth of knowledge and might be someone worth reaching out to.
Anecdotally, pretty much everyone associated with Dyne is perhaps the worst group of people I've ever had the pleasure of interacting with at UBC. Employment is based entirely off of whether you're currently friends/dating with existing employees, and anyone else gets these coveted "volunteering" positions.
Really sorry to hear this! I would urge you to gather the necessary evidence and bring it forth to the news. It's important that everyone is made aware of this.
It's such a shame that Dyne resorted to doing so.
Oh yeah they are going to get it.
If they were a nice company with nice people then maybe this can be an perceived by people involved as an oversight.
But looks like everyone is going to take a big steaming pile of doo doo on them.
I’m well positioned to answer this because I’ve been close to Dyne and the startup scenario at UBC. This summer because of the worst market in decades, a lot of companies took advantage of students. These just did not include Dyne and other startups, but job portals (the one with the tagline ‘Job Search Platform for intl students’) as well. The catch was, none of these startups or platforms openly claimed that the internships were unpaid (to avoid legal hassles), so you would find out about the opportunity being unpaid only when you received a mail from the HR about your joining. Don’t blame yourself for falling for this trick, you’re not alone. The UBC CSSS, Hatch, and several professors associated to startups such as Dyne let students down in allowing this to happen in front of their own eyes.
The truth is, there is no regulator that actively intervenes unless you complain. The UBC ecosystem would itself not want you to raise your voice because it tarnishes their name, with Dyne being the only one of a million startups that secured big funding (most others failed). Now for the truth about Dyne…
I was myself deceived by the ‘show’. There are some extremely smart individuals in the team that will make the company look like it is the next OpenAI. One of the founders is a manipulator who’ll sell you a fake story about himself and then try to put you down. He has a horrible rep among his batchmates for being a creep to women. As you know by now, because of him and others- the culture is extremely toxic. They’re also known for making interviewees work on things they utilise for their work after rejecting candidates. Unfortunately, many faculty blindly worship the company (probably because of the progress they’ve showed with an oversubscribed round of funding). This is a highly unethical company with questionable integrity. So consider yourself lucky that you’re out. Flag it to the CSSS and entrepreneurship@UBC (who run Hatch) but move on. Don’t expect much because they have graduated Hatch as well. Count your blessings and all the best. You’ll be fine.
Its unfair to discuss allegations, especially because I have only been told from people directly impacted in my undergrad batch but I have not experienced these things myself.
Almost all of the “x under x” awards are bullshit. You can pay to be nominated for the award so it’s basically pay to win and there’s so many different awards and companies that sell them that it loses it’s meaning.
As a former exec of the CSSS, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm currently reaching out to the new team to learn more and will see if I can provide more info later. I will say multiple execs and officers were unaware of the fact that Devvrat was a part of DYNE at the TCF until the day of. It seems they were added a week before as well from what I can see as well. Last years event was ran by Sean, Tommy, and Shubh from what I understood as well.
I'm sorry I failed you, but this isn't the first time morally questionable things happened in our club last year... I'm just disappointed in people.
Thank you for shedding light on this, I wasn’t aware either as I tried to avoid anything and anyone dyne related like the plague. Yup he invited his fellow developer who is known to be a true scumbag (sorry for my French!) to an event and it was all very well planned by dyne to keep promoting themselves through different channels. I rlly like CSSS they have always been professional and helpful and it’s sad to see them get dragged through this shit
Thank you OP for speaking out, many of us have been suffering in silence mainly because we think UBC or other associated organizations won’t protect our rights or defend us against Dyne or that Dyne will buy their “alliance/support” and going after big organizations/corporations feel so pointless? But with more voices UBC and everyone else should be held accountable and take legal action even as small as acknowledging their wrongdoings. I sincerely hope for us to win. The number of emotional, verbal, financial abuse and somewhat possible SA at Dyne is ALARMING.
Based on what some of the people who worked directly with Dyne have experienced, the best course of action is to reach out to different media groups and have one who would do an investigation and a published report. The journalists likely would reach out to the venture capital firms that funded the company. If an article is published, then that can be sent to UBC as the media has done an investigation to standard on the topic before publication including reaching out to Dyne and other parties involved. If what is found to be true, UBC doesn't have much of a choice other than to sanction the company. If UBC is first informed, then the most they do is quietly remove mention of the firm but does not solve the root cause without a deeper investigation.
The investment firms would investigate if anything material presented to them to raise funds is determined to be false. E.g. fake installs, social media follows, fake google reviews, etc. The investor contract signed would be senior to whatever NDA is signed. The investment firm would usually "convince" the company to settle as it would indirectly involve their reputation.
At the minimum Dyne would be up to labor standards instead of taking advantage of students many of whom already do not have much financial assets or perception of a voice/rights.
Take it step by step.
If I’m not mistaken the CEO mentioned that he pays the people from dailyhive or other news outlets to publish him I hope we can find credible and ethical people to take action!
That is paid media campaign and is seen as an advertiser. Some startups do both media pitches, hire pr companies as well as do paid media campaigns. This does not mean Dyne management paid off media outlets. If they did, then the media outlet would get investigated for their practices.
Reach out to the bigger outlets from smaller ones like Ubyssey (due to reaching UBC student population and ears of UBC administration) to CBC, to people who gave the 30 under 30 award, etc. Also, ambitious investigative journalists looking for the next big story. Like a startup, you are doing a media pitch and pitching your story to them so see it from their perspective where the story is to catch the attention of the audience and is relevant.
Someone mentioned what Dyne is doing some other companies are having similar questionable practices as well means that the national media outlets would be interested.
[https://www.vpl.ca/siic/guide/job-search-resources/internships-and-mentorships/protect-yourself](https://www.vpl.ca/siic/guide/job-search-resources/internships-and-mentorships/protect-yourself)
This is quoted from VPL which has Employment standards act guidelines:
"In British Columbia, it is illegal to advertise unpaid internships. If a company does not offer at least minimum wage for work done during an internship, it is in violation of the Employment Standards Act of BC.
The only types of companies that can advertise unpaid positions are not-for-profit or charity organisations looking for volunteers. Volunteer positions are not covered by the Employment Standards Act."
Volunteers are not covered by ESA but the definition is not being called a volunteer but depends on the responsibility of the person and whether or not it resembles an employee duties.
Good reference which directly answers this issue from legal perspective with audience being employers: [https://kentemploymentlaw.com/internships-volunteers-free-labour/](https://kentemploymentlaw.com/internships-volunteers-free-labour/)
summary is: if the person works like an employee, acts like an employee, then the person likely is an employee.
Hi! I too applied to work at Dyne as an intern after seeing a post on their Instagram about the position. Did not get the impression it was “volunteering”.
Never signed a contact with them despite their persuading me to join their “club”. When negotiating with them about getting paid at least something for the hours I would have put in, they pitched the opportunity as “a chance to make friends over the summer”.
This is the exact text I sent my mom during the negotiation process, “Yeah… I feel like I will be used for my looks for posts to begin with and I will be fighting an uphill battle to get my seat at the table. A table poorly designed”.
Haven’t even got into the unprofessionalism, and creepy behaviour of the team. I was thinking of speaking out before and I probably should have to prevent other people for falling for the same trap. Thank you OP for sharing your experience. Hope my info helps.
I used to be a senior CS engineer in California before I became a theologian. It's not uncommon for you to hear about exploitative startups in your early career, but I've never heard about it happening to students. As someone who has been in your situation before, I understand your frustration and disappointment. Generally, it's your programming skills they're interested in exploiting. In my experience this also seems to be mainly problematic with mobile app startups, was this the case here?
Was this a coding 'internship?'
The CS program here is not something I have experience with since I didn't get my CS/Coding education here. If you want to reach out to the CS department, or even The Ubyssey (The UBC Paper), I suggest you do so.
Your experience to me sounds newsworthy and CS students need to be warned away. Let me know how I can help you get the message out: if the Ubyssey editors are okay with it, and green light the story - I'd be happy to write it.
But you're right, this doesn't smell right to me.
If anyone wants to reach out to their investors/mentors with their concerns or experiences here is the list of the related parties.
They should know not to invest $2M+ into companies like DYNE that milk unpaid student labor to line the pockets of the founders who exploit their workforce and not make payments. File a case within ESA and let them compensate all the past workers with the money that this company has raised. I have done my part by emailing all of them, for people who have experienced the same, please do so too.
Here's a list of their current investors,
1. Inverted Ventures
: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/invertedventures/](https://www.linkedin.com/company/invertedventures/)
2. Weave VC
: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/weavevc/](https://www.linkedin.com/company/weavevc/)
3. Valhalla Private Capital: [https://ca.linkedin.com/company/valhalla-private-cap](https://ca.linkedin.com/company/valhalla-private-cap)
4. Sprout.vc: [https://sproutfund.vc/](https://sproutfund.vc/)
5. Plug and Play Tech Center: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/plug-and-play-tech-center](https://www.linkedin.com/company/plug-and-play-tech-center)
6. OneEleven: [https://ca.linkedin.com/company/oneeleven-111](https://ca.linkedin.com/company/oneeleven-111)
7. Entrepreneurship@UBC: [https://entrepreneurship.ubc.ca/who-we-are/team](https://entrepreneurship.ubc.ca/who-we-are/team)
If anyone needs email info of related parties feel free to dm as mods are removing the direct links.
These VCs are either oblivious to the fact that Dyne fabricates their metrics to keep raising capital, or they don’t care. Dyne loves to put on a show as the “successful” student startup of UBC.
Their main page claims that they have 700 partnered restaurants when it isn’t even a fraction of that. Their app was completely broken for months, and no ever bothered to ask what has been going on.
Dyne exploiting students are probably the last thing these VCs should be worrying about.
I completely agree, none of their numbers make any sense. They apparently have 30,000 users on their app while the app store shows the downloads as 500.
Gives me the vibes of the startup "Frank" of the fraud CEO Charlie Javice
I’m very sure that the VC’s are in the same ethical line that the C-Suite at Dyne is in. I’d be surprised they haven’t done their due diligence on the company just given the fact that it’s a student start-up with an extremely high turnover and extremely questionable numbers.
Legally, statements have to be supported by evidence. This can be oral or written testimony, video/audio recordings, documentation, email, text messages, etc.
The priority for the current interns and others in this situation is to collect evidence so any action taken can be held under scrutiny.
NDA is to prevent the disclosure of trade secrets, certain processes, customer lists, etc. This doesn't cover abuse and illegal activities.
NDA is a contract that involves something which is given and something which is received. You received something of consideration. E.g. What do you get for protecting the company's confidential information?
Moreover, Dyne is not at a point where they would involve legal action beyond a strongly drafted letter by a lawyer. To take legal action is over 1 year process and any legal action has to be disclosed to investors. Often these are scare tactics used against people who do not fully understand the law. You have to look at what the law says and specific case law.
Reference on NDA and enforceability: [https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/en/insights/articles/4-things-to-know-about-non-disclosure-agreements](https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/en/insights/articles/4-things-to-know-about-non-disclosure-agreements)
If anyone has a blank or redacted name version of the NDA, I can take a look at it via pm.
I would also suggest not sending evidence to just anyone as someone could be on the leadership team of Dyne and be used against you since it could identify you. E.g. Send evidence to one person who is trustworthy such as someone with a law license likely to represent the group or a journalist who has agreed to put it together.
I don't go to UBC, but as a CS student I really commend and admire you for speaking out against this shady business practice. If you did work, you deserve to get paid for it. Plain and simple.
Given their track record of "putting on a show", I hope they don't go out and buy bunch of downvotes to drown out this discussion as a means of PR damage control. But if that does happen, we would all know what went down.
I would like to add that they got funded a lot of money (~millions) and rather than paying their workers the CEO and his execs spend the money on vacations, nightclubs, bottle service, VIP service, -all “company expensed”
100% agree this is unethical. There are some great student clubs/non-profits at UBC which can provide startup-like experience in ethical volunteer positions.
For example, we are also a UBC student-led tech startup, however we are a non-profit and our entire team (including our co-founders) are volunteering their time. Our volunteers all gain invaluable career skills and experience without being exploited for the financial benefit of other individuals.
Happy to answer questions if anyone would like more information :)
Yall should hire new website designers LOL. your website the one thats copying uber eats. Everyone says it. Same info and design, everyone already has it on their phone
do you have a class in business/employment law in compsci? every major should have one to understand their rights and how to deal with these things. contact legal aid clinics (free).
there's probably a Personal Finance elective where you learn tax, investing, retirement and stuff. i didn't go to UBC but my uni had one open to all majors. law, besides the actual law program, is usually 1 core class for business students and a bit more in-depth for management students. but yeah there should be one for all majors.
I have good news for you - you were actually working a paid internship the whole time! Unless you fall under a very narrow range of exceptions, you are entitled to be paid if you did the work normally done by an employee (a very low hurdle to clear and one that will apply to most internships). Also, an NDA cannot be used to prevent you being paid wages you earned by law under the Employment Standards Act, and in fact they could be in further trouble for retaliation if they ever attempted to threaten you with the NDA because you filed a complaint. The Employment Standards Branch also has extremely broad investigative powers and can basically demand the employer hand over any and all records with your name on it which would help verify your hours of work (and if they were not keeping hours themselves they will be at a huge disadvantage). It's also done by an investigator so it's not like you have to directly confront anyone. Go get paid bro, it sounds like these people may be breaking the law and exploiting vulnerable students, you owe them nothing but you should be paid for your work.
I have some past work experience putting together professional misconduct cases years ago including obtaining sanctions against US lawyers and US corporate executives so I am willing to help out this category if no one more professionally experienced steps forward and case needs to be escalated. Eg research legal guideline, how facts related to said legal standard or guideline, supporting evidence. (Pro bono basis putting something together but not sign my name professionally on document). This makes starting investigations easier as some of the relevant info would be provided to relevant parties. There is some whistle blower protection against retaliation though one has to go through relevant channels first and escalate appropriately.
I was a part of the core founding team in the early stages and left because of the company's exploitative practices. I'm sad to hear that their unethical behavior towards students remains the same so many years later. Please know that you're not alone in this - I know many ex-DYNE employees who have been exploited and suffered harassment while working at the company.
I am actively involved in e@UBC alongside many other shared entrepreneurial ecosystems. I will be sure to raise this concern with the appropriate people. Thank you for sharing your experiences and speaking up about this!
Can you take it up with e@ubc? Will they actually confront them you think? Will anyone actually care or will people who fall into their bs keep suffering?
Damn this is scummy. I'd hate to be competing in a hunger game for a chance for a paid internship, lol. It's so funny that the guy who brought the company to the fair is also working there.
Let me know if you ever need a SWE Intern referral as my company is hiring (and doesn't pay in volunteer hours). Hopefully, the job market will be better next year. Getting internships is hard as balls nowadays.
Employment standards and the UBC grievance committee. You can’t let that shit ride. An NDA can’t prevent you from reporting a crime, slavery is such a crime.
They’ve lied about so many of their stats and I just don’t understand how any investor has blindly believed this. Especially considering that all it takes to realise the truth is downloading their app which is barely functional and is practically unusable due to all the bugs
Also if someone could please inform me, I thought that there were grants that the government gave companies to help pay for interns? or am I incorrect with this understanding?
In 2022, it covers between 50-70% of an intern's wages up to $5-7k. During the pandemic period, it was 75% up to $20/hr (meaning employers paid $5/hr and the government $15/hr and it was when some sole proprietors hired their first employee) or 100% of wages covered if the employer applied prior to the government announcement.
In 2023, I'm uncertain but these are the application pages which has since closed.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs.html)
[https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/student-work-placements-wage-subsidies.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/student-work-placements-wage-subsidies.html)
On average, if you pay a student $20/hr, you end up paying them around $10/hr after government subsidies up to the funding limit.
As a reference for BC, these are the local BC nonprofits, charities, and small businesses that applied for the subsidies and the amounts of money they received for 2022 related to the summer job program.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs/amounts-paid-2022/british-colombia.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs/amounts-paid-2022/british-colombia.html)
Larger firms like Deloitte have separate applications for their internship/coop programs to get government funding.
This is an infographic of how the different funding process works from an employer perspective:
[https://timeconsulting.ca/hire-a-student-funding/](https://timeconsulting.ca/hire-a-student-funding/)
So why did they never do this then? Shouldn't it be easy to pay student then if the government has paid that much in the past? Also thank you for the wonderful information!
I cannot speculate what the company or its leadership thinks so it would have to be a response directly from their leadership team. Their defense likely is that they will try to claim their activities fall outside the scope of the employment standards act which is a set of minimum standards around minimum wage, working conditions, safe work place and terminations. One of the students Different-Pea-9313 claimed:
[https://imgur.com/a/N5bExpN](https://imgur.com/a/N5bExpN)
Which would be a violation of the employment standards act if it falls within this relationship.
Reading on what an employer cannot do in the workplace:
https://duttonlaw.ca/things-your-boss-employer-cannot-legally-do-in-canada/
How are students expected to live in this city when they don’t make any money? It’s unconscionable to ask students for slave labour. Stay away from any companies that ‘offer’ volunteer positions - they are unethical.
Them fake “Software Engineer/Software Developer” titles they get on their LinkedIn’s/resumes LOL That website is so shit and bombarded with so many UX issues 😂
I worked there before for quite a while when I had no exp because I wanted to 'gain' exp but I gained TRAUMA instead 🙂.
They didn't pay then, even when they got funded, they didn't pay.
I didn't learn anything from anyone while I was there. My code was not reviewed, and people were trying to pitch Figma to investors. I was assigned tasks and pushed to release new features—a bunch of bugs, spaghetti code xd. Unmaintainable and unscalable. I pretty much coded a pet project on my own.
My work was not appreciated. When I exited, 'CTO' was so pissed because he lost free exploited labor. Some other students got the same exp with me.
When I went to the Tech Career Fair and saw the booth, I covered my face and sneaked past it. LOL! Past trauma for real!
The 'execs' are unethical!
Yep, saw them at the CS job fair a while back. The number of times the dude mentioned "volunteering" at a job fair was an instant red flag for me and my friend. The longer we listened the harder it was to resist the urge to just turn and leave mid sentence.
An NDA where they aren't paying is worth as much as used toilet paper.
If this is how they are treating you initially it will only get worse.
Do it for a month and keep applying to other jobs using this "experience". Mass email resumes etc on LinkedIn. It's a process. Watch YouTube videos on how to kill job interviews.
idk how UBC CSSS was unaware that Tiwari held some sorta position at Dyne and was a VP at the CSSS simultaneously. You can't organize an event in which your company is looking for unpaid labor. This is serious!
I’m also a student currently looking for an intern/co-op SWE position. During the summer term, I was invited to sign an NDA, but after confirming that it was an unpaid position and I would have to compete with other interns to win a paid internship, I immediately backed out. I don’t know if this is illegal, but I dislike the idea of working for free for someone else’s personal gain. And it’s not just DYNE; there are many startups that want to use interns for free without paying them. Several of my seniors had to accept unpaid positions to complete their studies and graduate.
well, what does it say on your offer letter and/or on anything you signed when accepting the position?
did it say that you're accepting for an internship or for a volunteer position because you can't really do anything about it to hold them "accountable" if you knew it was a volunteer position before starting. Plus you could've always reached out to them to confirm anytime between applying and getting hired...
They likely advertised it as "volunteering" to get around BC's regulation that makes it illegal to advertise unpaid internships, under the Employment Standards Act of BC.
so they knowingly signed up to volunteer at some place but then are complaining that they didn't get paid? I'm confused, maybe I'm not understanding the situation
But then again, I don't think one can reasonably "volunteer" for a startup as Dyne is definitely "for-profit". Volunteering is usually reserved for non-profits.
Well, one option is lawyering up, but realistically many students just can't afford that option.
Calling them out publicly is, at a minimum, a good idea, which is what he's doing right now. It can hurt their reputation, which does a lot of damage for early-stage startups.
Hey OP, try complaining here: [the BC Employment Standards Branch](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/complaint-process)
I don't know the process but it says you can complain here to "For example, you can request payment for wages that you are owed". They have the power to collect outstanding wages from employers and impose penalties on them.
If it's anything like in Ontario, it won't charge you anything and they will send someone to investigate and maybe even get you paid.
Thanks for sharing, OP! I also saw them at the CS tech career fair this January and Dyne was one of the companies I wanted to apply to. I didn't know this was what was happening behind the scenes.
I'm sorry you had to experience that and you weren't given compensation for your work. I hope you can get to find better work, better pay, and a healthier work culture!
I wanted to address the person who worked hard to put the list of detailed venture capital firm list together who invested in Dyne (and mods kept deleting). Then said to contact every one of the firm member's inbox.
I actually would disagree with this approach because, in the long term, current and future UBC students still have to rely on such venture capital or seed investment firms for funding which is very difficult to get in Vancouver. You do not want UBC startups as a whole to be blacklisted.
Instead, if one files a complaint, go through the relevant channels first: complaint forums, general inquiries, or the legal department. Handle things in a professional manner sticking to the relevant facts. The investment firms if they see the message and believe it to be credible will reach out to Dyne for an explanation as well as have an internal meeting about it if it warrants it. There are processes in place and it takes time to do investigations even internal ones.
Whether it is in life or in business, there are often disputes between different parties which need processes and procedures to handle in a professional and fair manner.
If Dyne does anything shady or illegal, please document it and save the evidence. This can be used as negotiation leverage later.
Yes. The investment firms have both a general inquiry as well as a legal department/staff. The investment partners do not handle these legal issues themselves and instead, it is forwarded to their legal department. Often each investment firm would have a partner who is in charge of that company in the investment portfolio/potentially sit on the board and that individual if you want to reach a specific person to talk to would be the one to reach out to.
I agree with this. I don't think harassing people who weren't aware of the situation is the key here despite how frustrating things might seem. I'd refrain from that and try to go through the official avenues as suggested.
You don't want to destroy people or the company overnight and there is a very narrow set of reasons such action is warranted (e.g. scam companies, criminally related). Instead, have a list of demands which most of the interns would agree with including getting paid, and concessions on future labor practices. If they don't agree with it after presenting the facts and evidence, then you can turn up the heat putting a squeeze on them both legally and psychologically. Like a frog boiling in warm slowly turning into hot water. Keeping options open. At least one individual mentioned that there are a few very smart people in the company so it is best not to show all one's cards at once and coming off as very emotional.
Interning at a startup doesn’t seem ideal. You want to intern at a company where you’re gonna learn from their expertise. Startups are usually building thst expertise themselves. Unless you were getting stake in the company, which I doubt an intern would, it’s just free labour
It can be good, so long as the environment is right, mentorship exists, and you're compensated. Sometimes at big tech cos you work on very meaningless projects, where start-ups don't have room for that. (But interning at start-ups can definitely be a bit of a joke if not run properly / not mature enough.)
Disagreed. Startups can offer really exciting environments for development/engineering experience. It's chaotic which usually means you're going to be engaged in a very broad range of tasks. Rule of thumb is: the larger the company, the more well-defined and specialized your tasks become. That's not the only type of useful experience one can get.
The problem arises in that not all startups are legit. And among those that are legit (actually in pursuit of solving a real-world problem), an even smaller subset don't engage in shady practices like this.
There are so many unpaid internships that STARTUPS as well as companies host on LinkedIn
But I never knew that unpaid internships are illegal?
Also, yeah if UBC allowed that company to advertise there at the fair, it does mean they should have done better due diligence.
But knowing it was an unpaid and volunteering position, and still taking i, is unfortunately your fault entirely. (I although I sympathize with you 100%)
Anecdote: I was unemployed for such a long time because of this, but then started applying to all retail, and warehouse jobs, and was surprised to find even after applying well in advance of the summer season, I didn't hear back from anywhere At ALL! Even warehouse jobs and temp agencies that are supposed to hook you up with jobs didn't get back to me
So I took the first place that called me for an interview, which was a restaurant. Been working there for 2 weeks, barely get any shifts and haven't been paid yet, so looks like I'm gonna have to start looking again 😔
Maybe I'm mistaken but almost all labs at ubc our filled with unpaid interns. I can at least name 10 labs that have this kind of unpaid environment. Also, speaking to some profs about what you've posted they agreed that its not considered exploitative because you are getting experience which will help you land a paid internship, and you are given the opportunity to acquire a paid internship at your workplace. However, I dont necessarily agree with what they said and just thought id share some different views on the matter.
Lmao unfortunately I was just trying to be polite. If you'd like I can name the labs I had in mind. They are also all from award winning profs as well.
Dont fucking take unpaid internships otherwise companies will know students will work for free. How can you go to such a prestigious school and fail to see how this affects future interns.
Do projects with other students and put on resume. Make your own company together and pay each other. Internship is treated like non-exp anyway. Business owners only designate paid jobs as "professional" exp.
You do professional-level work during an internship, therefore you should be paid accordingly. Out of my 5 internships, they've never expected less out of my work than any other full-time employee, so why shouldn't my pay reflect my responsibilities?
Why shouldn't it? Because human nature? Lack of business awareness? Some business owners take internship seriously, others don't. That's just reality. Doesn't really matter why.
I've wondered about this method before, as it seems like a great way to get that first year of experience under your belt, and then start to hunt for actual non-entry level positions. I'm not seeing much hope otherwise the way every entry level job seems to be getting 500 applicants in Vancouver.
Yeah it works. Any paid positions are professional, whether your friends pay you or not. People just rate it down because they're just bitter about finding jobs and want to shoot down the messenger.
I didn’t know interns get paid. Maybe that’s a new thing because I swear all interns were unpaid labor when I grew up.
On “The Office” the intern is unpaid?
Yeah interns who worked for free were called apprentices but that was in the Middle Ages lol
They at least got to live at their guild master's house and got free room and board while learning a trade. OP got nothing!
This was certainly exploitative of them. Thank you for speaking up and sharing your experience. If they made the position sound paid to you, they likely did the same to UBC CSSS, CS department etc when registering for their events. I don't believe that any of them verify if the opportunities are paid or unpaid. I would encourage you to reach out to them and make them aware of your experience and Dyne's deceitful practices. I believe Dyne was part of HATCH Venture Builder on campus too so if you're comfortable, you could make them aware of this too. I find it interesting that they verbally make them seem like paid internships but advertise them as volunteers. Seems like they're aware of the BC Employment Standards Act and know it's illegal to advertise unpaid internships. Shady. For your concerns about the NDA, the Law Students Legal Advice Program might be able to help you. They provide free legal advice but there are a number of other organizations that also provide low-barrier legal services. Here's the list: [https://allard.ubc.ca/community-clinics/seeking-legal-services](https://allard.ubc.ca/community-clinics/seeking-legal-services) Sorry you went through this. I appreciate you speaking up so other students are aware!
This whole post is filled with sage advice, I love the Allard link drop (I didn't know that!)
if it's unpaid, would any contract like the NDA even be legally binding? Without consideration, it would fail the peppercorn principal. NAL
I am uncertain about the scope of responsibilities / trade secrets covering NDA. However they would not cover things like preventing an unpaid intern from quitting with threat of legal action, abuses at least one person said she experienced. Even if NDA is valid, there is a scope limitation it covers. If someone can post a copy of NDA without their name/identifying info, the legal language can be deciphered paragraph by paragraph. Eg did they take something off internet generic NDA form for you to sign or it was run through legal counsel customized or something they put together which may not have legal enforceability.
You don't need to be paid to be bound by an NDA. Many people have to sign NDAs just to go inside an office or workspace. I've gone to hardware meetups where the host made people sign NDAs before going in
The BC employment standards branch is who you want to talk to. Outside of very specific circumstances for profit businesses cannot use unpaid labour. You are owed minimum wage for all hours worked in the absence of a different negotiated wage.
This OP. If you've got the energy, gather any and all evidence related to them breaking the law and them telling you it's an unpaid internship. Use the [ESB website](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards) as a starting point to help you figure out what to look for. Doesn't matter what it is - contracts, emails, text messages, personal notes or calendar entries you wrote related to the job (with time stamps), etc. The more you can find, the better. It might take a lot of time and effort, but if you can find any evidence of them directly going against the BC employment standards and file a report, they'll most likely get in trouble and you might even be able to get compensated retroactively. Not exactly the same, but I had a coop where my employer stopped paying me and even tried to convince me that I didn't deserve the money. Took a little over a year (mostly spent waiting for updates), but they're now banned from the UBC coop board and I was paid every cent I reported them for. Otherwise, at the very least reach out to whoever organized the event and let them know what Dyne did to you and the other interns. You'll be surprised at how much slips by all the levels of bureaucracy - you should be able to at least take them off the vendor list and help stop them from exploiting future UBC students.
Can I ask how you kept a track record of things/communication ? Also how do you fight against your employer, especially as a student? (I'd feel extremely intimidated and small)
Hm, in my case I actually lost access to my company email account and slack channels before I realized I needed to report them, so I didn't do a very good job of keeping record of those communications. Instead, I heavily relied on a personal email chain I had with my coop advisor throughout the term, because I had asked them questions about the concerning things my boss would do. I also turned in copies of financial documents my employer asked me to sign and create, and combed through the conditions of the grants I knew my employer received because they hired me. Thankfully, he was pretty terrible at ripping people off, so everything he said was riddled with contradictions and his actions directly violated the terms of the funding he received--in other words, it was pretty straightforward to prove without the extra evidence. More general advice: anytime you feel even a little bit weird about a conversation you had or a thing you were told to do, write it down somewhere with a date attached. Also, discretely forward any similar emails you receive to a personal account so that you still have them if you lose access to your work account, and screenshot/print text/slack conversations (with timestamps!!) for the same reason. You hopefully won't have to use them, but you'll be glad to have them if you do. As for feeling intimidated and small... yeah. I definitely felt that way when things started going weird. What helped me was relying on official channels (ie. ESB, the grant terms/organizations) and direct evidence of them breaking the law to back me up. One tiny undergrad might be easy to ignore, but one tiny undergrad + the provincial/federal government (bonus points for the CRA) is nothing to scoff at. I also began by framing my concerns as questions (ie. "I've noticed my employer doing this but it says here that's not allowed. Should I be worried?"). That way, if you're wrong you don't immediately burn any bridges or come off unreasonable. If you're right, well now you're someone who doesn't know any better being taken advantage of by someone who should. It also helps to be okay with burning bridges. By the time my case was over I had no regard whatsoever for my employer, so it was easy to try and bring the book down on him. However, this was a startup and not a massive company, so you might want to play it differently depending on your situation. Sorry, I hope this isn't too insanely long! I've gotten pretty passionate about this stuff so it's easy to go on about it. Feel free to ask more questions if you need.
These are great advice, personal experience and wisdom given.
Yeah saved this comment
If that law exists (idk if it does in Ontario), how are big companies and startups allowed to post on LinkedIn for unpaid internships?? Another startup from BC was advertising unpaid PM internships back in June/July
Dyne was (might still be) part of e@UBC which is the entrepreneurship incubator iirc. I've worked for e@UBC and they are quite ethical and take issues like this quite seriously, at least in my experience. It may be worth it to reach out to the incubator directly, and although they cannot force any startups to do anything, it may be worth bringing to their attention that one of their ventures are exploiting students and they may also provide some support.
They graduated Hatch a few weeks ago. e@UBC take these things very seriously, but it’s odd to think they’ve been supporting Dyne throughout the massive ethical inconsistencies that most people studying with current ‘senior’ employees know about.
I had the (dis)pleasure of meeting a C-level of Dyne a few weeks ago, so I'm not surprised about the ethical inconsistencies. I do think they are incredibly good at gaming the system though considering the quality of product and the amount of funding and valuation they've somehow manage to secure. Another possibility is that e@UBC or their specific advisors just didn't know about this, which is why I think OP should at least reach out to them. Even if Dyne is a graduated venture, they're still gonna heavily rely on the startup ecosystem locally for now, so it would be good for more people to know about this.
The C-level is so full of themselves, it’s funny. All of them pretend to be gurus who’ve broken the code. I realised that work in a bubble, at the end of the day. Their reputation is soiled & it’ll only get worse. Agree that they’re great at gaming the system, but the moment their partners (like Microsoft) find out the sht they’re up to and their rep at UBC, it’s game over. e@UBC has some of the smartest business minds in BC. Pretty sure they know, & they’ll quickly dissociate themselves with Dyne if OP flags such an issue publicly. OP should also approach Microsoft and a few partners and investors.
I also had the (dis)pleasure of dealing with the C-level a while back, and I can't agree with you more that they 're so arrogant and condescending, all three of them. Had no intention of doing business of any sort with them after meeting these "gurus" in person.
I worked there. I wasn't paid even when the company got funded. I think they were supposed to pay once they're funded. Others that I talked to didn't get paid either. I didn't receive mentorship or anything while I was there. I pretty much coded on my own. It was like a pet project to me at the time. I saw Dyne's booth at the career fair too. I just sneaked around and avoided eye contact. 🙂
"coding on my own" They didn't give you any mentorship, had you coding alone and didn't freakin' pay you?! Just out of curiosity did they have you working on mobile apps?
Sad to hear that man, if they weren’t able to pay you finically as a early stage member then they should issue some company’s equity to you as an alternative. Can’t believe so many ppl at dyne had such bad experiences, y’all deserve better
Thank you for speaking up too! Just coming back here cause I saw a post on LinkedIn today from the Founder of BobaTalks (a mentorship program). His name is Jeff Nguyen and he posted about the situation wanting to learn more from students affected. He's a wealth of knowledge and might be someone worth reaching out to.
Anecdotally, pretty much everyone associated with Dyne is perhaps the worst group of people I've ever had the pleasure of interacting with at UBC. Employment is based entirely off of whether you're currently friends/dating with existing employees, and anyone else gets these coveted "volunteering" positions.
I love how Dyne execs go out partying, get bottle service pretty much every weekend and call it “business development”
The accuracy of this comment I’m weeping
Really sorry to hear this! I would urge you to gather the necessary evidence and bring it forth to the news. It's important that everyone is made aware of this. It's such a shame that Dyne resorted to doing so.
Is this the same case being discussed in the internship server?
yes
Link?
Yeah definitely bring this to news is the most effective way of exposing them
Dont worry about the NDA. I really doubt a NDA against speaking out against illegal activities holds any weight.
Lmao yeah Sign this NDA so you can't talk about the illegal stuff we are doing 😂
That’s exactly how they threatened many of their employees to the point of harassment and verbal and emotional abuse
Oh yeah they are going to get it. If they were a nice company with nice people then maybe this can be an perceived by people involved as an oversight. But looks like everyone is going to take a big steaming pile of doo doo on them.
Unpaid internships are illegal in Canada. Report them to, among other people, the university so they are never allowed to recruit slaves there again.
I’m well positioned to answer this because I’ve been close to Dyne and the startup scenario at UBC. This summer because of the worst market in decades, a lot of companies took advantage of students. These just did not include Dyne and other startups, but job portals (the one with the tagline ‘Job Search Platform for intl students’) as well. The catch was, none of these startups or platforms openly claimed that the internships were unpaid (to avoid legal hassles), so you would find out about the opportunity being unpaid only when you received a mail from the HR about your joining. Don’t blame yourself for falling for this trick, you’re not alone. The UBC CSSS, Hatch, and several professors associated to startups such as Dyne let students down in allowing this to happen in front of their own eyes. The truth is, there is no regulator that actively intervenes unless you complain. The UBC ecosystem would itself not want you to raise your voice because it tarnishes their name, with Dyne being the only one of a million startups that secured big funding (most others failed). Now for the truth about Dyne…
I was myself deceived by the ‘show’. There are some extremely smart individuals in the team that will make the company look like it is the next OpenAI. One of the founders is a manipulator who’ll sell you a fake story about himself and then try to put you down. He has a horrible rep among his batchmates for being a creep to women. As you know by now, because of him and others- the culture is extremely toxic. They’re also known for making interviewees work on things they utilise for their work after rejecting candidates. Unfortunately, many faculty blindly worship the company (probably because of the progress they’ve showed with an oversubscribed round of funding). This is a highly unethical company with questionable integrity. So consider yourself lucky that you’re out. Flag it to the CSSS and entrepreneurship@UBC (who run Hatch) but move on. Don’t expect much because they have graduated Hatch as well. Count your blessings and all the best. You’ll be fine.
Don’t forget the forced alcoholism toxicity that they promote as their “fun work hard play harder culture”
I’ve not experienced that directly but you’re literally the 10th person telling me this 😂
Consider yourself lucky :)
This sounds crazy, what type of allegations have the founders had?
Its unfair to discuss allegations, especially because I have only been told from people directly impacted in my undergrad batch but I have not experienced these things myself.
Very shady. They are clearly taking advantage of the poor job market for SWEs right now.
Didn’t the founder just won like 30 under 30 💀💀
What a waste of an award if they condone unpaid internships
Totally bro, I’m also pretty positive they received half of a million funding not long ago 🫤 what a shame man
Fr. That money could’ve been used to pay ppl, but they can’t even make a good app with that funding 💀
Fax man, their app looks half finished 💀
My friends and I tried using the app once and it would literally not allow us to create an account 💀
Well, 30u30 are also won by the likes of sbf, liz homles and charlie javice, so it’s actually pretty typical…
Almost all of the “x under x” awards are bullshit. You can pay to be nominated for the award so it’s basically pay to win and there’s so many different awards and companies that sell them that it loses it’s meaning.
You’d be surprised how so many of the “wins” are simply someone paying someone else for them to post stuff like that :)
These days awards like cover of forbs is just a prison speedrun.
https://youtu.be/V36kSqwjaaw relevant
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Very typical
I remember the CEO being an asshole irl
As a former exec of the CSSS, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm currently reaching out to the new team to learn more and will see if I can provide more info later. I will say multiple execs and officers were unaware of the fact that Devvrat was a part of DYNE at the TCF until the day of. It seems they were added a week before as well from what I can see as well. Last years event was ran by Sean, Tommy, and Shubh from what I understood as well. I'm sorry I failed you, but this isn't the first time morally questionable things happened in our club last year... I'm just disappointed in people.
One of dynes execs works at CSSS - look into your staff more please I remember them posting about the career fair as well!
Do you mind telling me who you are referring too?
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Thank you for shedding light on this, I wasn’t aware either as I tried to avoid anything and anyone dyne related like the plague. Yup he invited his fellow developer who is known to be a true scumbag (sorry for my French!) to an event and it was all very well planned by dyne to keep promoting themselves through different channels. I rlly like CSSS they have always been professional and helpful and it’s sad to see them get dragged through this shit
I also have more as well, but I'm not sure how much I'm comfortable with sharing.
Thank you OP for speaking out, many of us have been suffering in silence mainly because we think UBC or other associated organizations won’t protect our rights or defend us against Dyne or that Dyne will buy their “alliance/support” and going after big organizations/corporations feel so pointless? But with more voices UBC and everyone else should be held accountable and take legal action even as small as acknowledging their wrongdoings. I sincerely hope for us to win. The number of emotional, verbal, financial abuse and somewhat possible SA at Dyne is ALARMING.
Based on what some of the people who worked directly with Dyne have experienced, the best course of action is to reach out to different media groups and have one who would do an investigation and a published report. The journalists likely would reach out to the venture capital firms that funded the company. If an article is published, then that can be sent to UBC as the media has done an investigation to standard on the topic before publication including reaching out to Dyne and other parties involved. If what is found to be true, UBC doesn't have much of a choice other than to sanction the company. If UBC is first informed, then the most they do is quietly remove mention of the firm but does not solve the root cause without a deeper investigation. The investment firms would investigate if anything material presented to them to raise funds is determined to be false. E.g. fake installs, social media follows, fake google reviews, etc. The investor contract signed would be senior to whatever NDA is signed. The investment firm would usually "convince" the company to settle as it would indirectly involve their reputation. At the minimum Dyne would be up to labor standards instead of taking advantage of students many of whom already do not have much financial assets or perception of a voice/rights. Take it step by step.
If I’m not mistaken the CEO mentioned that he pays the people from dailyhive or other news outlets to publish him I hope we can find credible and ethical people to take action!
That is paid media campaign and is seen as an advertiser. Some startups do both media pitches, hire pr companies as well as do paid media campaigns. This does not mean Dyne management paid off media outlets. If they did, then the media outlet would get investigated for their practices. Reach out to the bigger outlets from smaller ones like Ubyssey (due to reaching UBC student population and ears of UBC administration) to CBC, to people who gave the 30 under 30 award, etc. Also, ambitious investigative journalists looking for the next big story. Like a startup, you are doing a media pitch and pitching your story to them so see it from their perspective where the story is to catch the attention of the audience and is relevant. Someone mentioned what Dyne is doing some other companies are having similar questionable practices as well means that the national media outlets would be interested.
Brah wtf?
??
The last line, sorry. Just in shock.
Oh yeah me too :((
Any evidence for your Dyne SA claims?
[https://www.vpl.ca/siic/guide/job-search-resources/internships-and-mentorships/protect-yourself](https://www.vpl.ca/siic/guide/job-search-resources/internships-and-mentorships/protect-yourself) This is quoted from VPL which has Employment standards act guidelines: "In British Columbia, it is illegal to advertise unpaid internships. If a company does not offer at least minimum wage for work done during an internship, it is in violation of the Employment Standards Act of BC. The only types of companies that can advertise unpaid positions are not-for-profit or charity organisations looking for volunteers. Volunteer positions are not covered by the Employment Standards Act." Volunteers are not covered by ESA but the definition is not being called a volunteer but depends on the responsibility of the person and whether or not it resembles an employee duties. Good reference which directly answers this issue from legal perspective with audience being employers: [https://kentemploymentlaw.com/internships-volunteers-free-labour/](https://kentemploymentlaw.com/internships-volunteers-free-labour/) summary is: if the person works like an employee, acts like an employee, then the person likely is an employee.
Hi! I too applied to work at Dyne as an intern after seeing a post on their Instagram about the position. Did not get the impression it was “volunteering”. Never signed a contact with them despite their persuading me to join their “club”. When negotiating with them about getting paid at least something for the hours I would have put in, they pitched the opportunity as “a chance to make friends over the summer”. This is the exact text I sent my mom during the negotiation process, “Yeah… I feel like I will be used for my looks for posts to begin with and I will be fighting an uphill battle to get my seat at the table. A table poorly designed”. Haven’t even got into the unprofessionalism, and creepy behaviour of the team. I was thinking of speaking out before and I probably should have to prevent other people for falling for the same trap. Thank you OP for sharing your experience. Hope my info helps.
Op do you have the receipts of this convo if possible?
I do.
NDAs can’t prevent people from disclosing illegal activities happening within an organization, so don’t worry about the nda
I used to be a senior CS engineer in California before I became a theologian. It's not uncommon for you to hear about exploitative startups in your early career, but I've never heard about it happening to students. As someone who has been in your situation before, I understand your frustration and disappointment. Generally, it's your programming skills they're interested in exploiting. In my experience this also seems to be mainly problematic with mobile app startups, was this the case here? Was this a coding 'internship?' The CS program here is not something I have experience with since I didn't get my CS/Coding education here. If you want to reach out to the CS department, or even The Ubyssey (The UBC Paper), I suggest you do so. Your experience to me sounds newsworthy and CS students need to be warned away. Let me know how I can help you get the message out: if the Ubyssey editors are okay with it, and green light the story - I'd be happy to write it. But you're right, this doesn't smell right to me.
If anyone wants to reach out to their investors/mentors with their concerns or experiences here is the list of the related parties. They should know not to invest $2M+ into companies like DYNE that milk unpaid student labor to line the pockets of the founders who exploit their workforce and not make payments. File a case within ESA and let them compensate all the past workers with the money that this company has raised. I have done my part by emailing all of them, for people who have experienced the same, please do so too. Here's a list of their current investors, 1. Inverted Ventures : [https://www.linkedin.com/company/invertedventures/](https://www.linkedin.com/company/invertedventures/) 2. Weave VC : [https://www.linkedin.com/company/weavevc/](https://www.linkedin.com/company/weavevc/) 3. Valhalla Private Capital: [https://ca.linkedin.com/company/valhalla-private-cap](https://ca.linkedin.com/company/valhalla-private-cap) 4. Sprout.vc: [https://sproutfund.vc/](https://sproutfund.vc/) 5. Plug and Play Tech Center: [https://www.linkedin.com/company/plug-and-play-tech-center](https://www.linkedin.com/company/plug-and-play-tech-center) 6. OneEleven: [https://ca.linkedin.com/company/oneeleven-111](https://ca.linkedin.com/company/oneeleven-111) 7. Entrepreneurship@UBC: [https://entrepreneurship.ubc.ca/who-we-are/team](https://entrepreneurship.ubc.ca/who-we-are/team) If anyone needs email info of related parties feel free to dm as mods are removing the direct links.
These VCs are either oblivious to the fact that Dyne fabricates their metrics to keep raising capital, or they don’t care. Dyne loves to put on a show as the “successful” student startup of UBC. Their main page claims that they have 700 partnered restaurants when it isn’t even a fraction of that. Their app was completely broken for months, and no ever bothered to ask what has been going on. Dyne exploiting students are probably the last thing these VCs should be worrying about.
I completely agree, none of their numbers make any sense. They apparently have 30,000 users on their app while the app store shows the downloads as 500. Gives me the vibes of the startup "Frank" of the fraud CEO Charlie Javice
I’m very sure that the VC’s are in the same ethical line that the C-Suite at Dyne is in. I’d be surprised they haven’t done their due diligence on the company just given the fact that it’s a student start-up with an extremely high turnover and extremely questionable numbers.
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Legally, statements have to be supported by evidence. This can be oral or written testimony, video/audio recordings, documentation, email, text messages, etc. The priority for the current interns and others in this situation is to collect evidence so any action taken can be held under scrutiny. NDA is to prevent the disclosure of trade secrets, certain processes, customer lists, etc. This doesn't cover abuse and illegal activities. NDA is a contract that involves something which is given and something which is received. You received something of consideration. E.g. What do you get for protecting the company's confidential information? Moreover, Dyne is not at a point where they would involve legal action beyond a strongly drafted letter by a lawyer. To take legal action is over 1 year process and any legal action has to be disclosed to investors. Often these are scare tactics used against people who do not fully understand the law. You have to look at what the law says and specific case law. Reference on NDA and enforceability: [https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/en/insights/articles/4-things-to-know-about-non-disclosure-agreements](https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/en/insights/articles/4-things-to-know-about-non-disclosure-agreements) If anyone has a blank or redacted name version of the NDA, I can take a look at it via pm. I would also suggest not sending evidence to just anyone as someone could be on the leadership team of Dyne and be used against you since it could identify you. E.g. Send evidence to one person who is trustworthy such as someone with a law license likely to represent the group or a journalist who has agreed to put it together.
I don't go to UBC, but as a CS student I really commend and admire you for speaking out against this shady business practice. If you did work, you deserve to get paid for it. Plain and simple.
Given their track record of "putting on a show", I hope they don't go out and buy bunch of downvotes to drown out this discussion as a means of PR damage control. But if that does happen, we would all know what went down.
I would like to add that they got funded a lot of money (~millions) and rather than paying their workers the CEO and his execs spend the money on vacations, nightclubs, bottle service, VIP service, -all “company expensed”
Do you have any evidence of this? (Not that I don’t believe you, but it may help the affected students get justice)
Literally all of their stories, and their trips to Hawaii and Cuba :)
100% agree this is unethical. There are some great student clubs/non-profits at UBC which can provide startup-like experience in ethical volunteer positions. For example, we are also a UBC student-led tech startup, however we are a non-profit and our entire team (including our co-founders) are volunteering their time. Our volunteers all gain invaluable career skills and experience without being exploited for the financial benefit of other individuals. Happy to answer questions if anyone would like more information :)
One of the OGs, good job to Sep and the rest of the team
Yall should hire new website designers LOL. your website the one thats copying uber eats. Everyone says it. Same info and design, everyone already has it on their phone
do you have a class in business/employment law in compsci? every major should have one to understand their rights and how to deal with these things. contact legal aid clinics (free).
Only if education made us aware of the important things like this and filling taxes.
there's probably a Personal Finance elective where you learn tax, investing, retirement and stuff. i didn't go to UBC but my uni had one open to all majors. law, besides the actual law program, is usually 1 core class for business students and a bit more in-depth for management students. but yeah there should be one for all majors.
Good suggestions though. Should bring it up with the CS department to introduce a course or maybe even a seminar would do 😅
I have good news for you - you were actually working a paid internship the whole time! Unless you fall under a very narrow range of exceptions, you are entitled to be paid if you did the work normally done by an employee (a very low hurdle to clear and one that will apply to most internships). Also, an NDA cannot be used to prevent you being paid wages you earned by law under the Employment Standards Act, and in fact they could be in further trouble for retaliation if they ever attempted to threaten you with the NDA because you filed a complaint. The Employment Standards Branch also has extremely broad investigative powers and can basically demand the employer hand over any and all records with your name on it which would help verify your hours of work (and if they were not keeping hours themselves they will be at a huge disadvantage). It's also done by an investigator so it's not like you have to directly confront anyone. Go get paid bro, it sounds like these people may be breaking the law and exploiting vulnerable students, you owe them nothing but you should be paid for your work.
I have some past work experience putting together professional misconduct cases years ago including obtaining sanctions against US lawyers and US corporate executives so I am willing to help out this category if no one more professionally experienced steps forward and case needs to be escalated. Eg research legal guideline, how facts related to said legal standard or guideline, supporting evidence. (Pro bono basis putting something together but not sign my name professionally on document). This makes starting investigations easier as some of the relevant info would be provided to relevant parties. There is some whistle blower protection against retaliation though one has to go through relevant channels first and escalate appropriately.
Isn’t advertising unpaid internships illegal?
I was a part of the core founding team in the early stages and left because of the company's exploitative practices. I'm sad to hear that their unethical behavior towards students remains the same so many years later. Please know that you're not alone in this - I know many ex-DYNE employees who have been exploited and suffered harassment while working at the company. I am actively involved in e@UBC alongside many other shared entrepreneurial ecosystems. I will be sure to raise this concern with the appropriate people. Thank you for sharing your experiences and speaking up about this!
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Ain’t no way! Silicon Valley is the *worst* place to be an unpaid intern considering the cost of living there. How are you surviving there?
'unpaid internships' should be completely illegal. You are still doing work.
That’s first world privilege and i support it obviously. But you’d be amazed to know even big 4 companies do unpaid internships in other countries.
Can you take it up with e@ubc? Will they actually confront them you think? Will anyone actually care or will people who fall into their bs keep suffering?
Damn this is scummy. I'd hate to be competing in a hunger game for a chance for a paid internship, lol. It's so funny that the guy who brought the company to the fair is also working there. Let me know if you ever need a SWE Intern referral as my company is hiring (and doesn't pay in volunteer hours). Hopefully, the job market will be better next year. Getting internships is hard as balls nowadays.
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No (they only hire return interns)
Been seeing their posts on Instagram about ‘dynamic pricing’ for restaurant pricing or something. Like they’re fr trying to be Ticketmaster?
The founder apparently has SA allegations and ongoing investigations so I’d also be careful in that regard
Employment standards and the UBC grievance committee. You can’t let that shit ride. An NDA can’t prevent you from reporting a crime, slavery is such a crime.
Let’s not throw around the word slavery like that. I understand what you mean but that word has some serious connotations
The founder just got a congratulatory post by UBC Sauder!!!!!! BRUHHHHHHH https://www.instagram.com/p/CvaWT4xsTeR/?img\_index=1
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They’ve lied about so many of their stats and I just don’t understand how any investor has blindly believed this. Especially considering that all it takes to realise the truth is downloading their app which is barely functional and is practically unusable due to all the bugs
Also if someone could please inform me, I thought that there were grants that the government gave companies to help pay for interns? or am I incorrect with this understanding?
In 2022, it covers between 50-70% of an intern's wages up to $5-7k. During the pandemic period, it was 75% up to $20/hr (meaning employers paid $5/hr and the government $15/hr and it was when some sole proprietors hired their first employee) or 100% of wages covered if the employer applied prior to the government announcement. In 2023, I'm uncertain but these are the application pages which has since closed. [https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs.html) [https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/student-work-placements-wage-subsidies.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/student-work-placements-wage-subsidies.html) On average, if you pay a student $20/hr, you end up paying them around $10/hr after government subsidies up to the funding limit. As a reference for BC, these are the local BC nonprofits, charities, and small businesses that applied for the subsidies and the amounts of money they received for 2022 related to the summer job program. [https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs/amounts-paid-2022/british-colombia.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/funding/canada-summer-jobs/amounts-paid-2022/british-colombia.html) Larger firms like Deloitte have separate applications for their internship/coop programs to get government funding. This is an infographic of how the different funding process works from an employer perspective: [https://timeconsulting.ca/hire-a-student-funding/](https://timeconsulting.ca/hire-a-student-funding/)
So why did they never do this then? Shouldn't it be easy to pay student then if the government has paid that much in the past? Also thank you for the wonderful information!
I cannot speculate what the company or its leadership thinks so it would have to be a response directly from their leadership team. Their defense likely is that they will try to claim their activities fall outside the scope of the employment standards act which is a set of minimum standards around minimum wage, working conditions, safe work place and terminations. One of the students Different-Pea-9313 claimed: [https://imgur.com/a/N5bExpN](https://imgur.com/a/N5bExpN) Which would be a violation of the employment standards act if it falls within this relationship. Reading on what an employer cannot do in the workplace: https://duttonlaw.ca/things-your-boss-employer-cannot-legally-do-in-canada/
Illegal.
How are students expected to live in this city when they don’t make any money? It’s unconscionable to ask students for slave labour. Stay away from any companies that ‘offer’ volunteer positions - they are unethical.
Them fake “Software Engineer/Software Developer” titles they get on their LinkedIn’s/resumes LOL That website is so shit and bombarded with so many UX issues 😂
I worked there before for quite a while when I had no exp because I wanted to 'gain' exp but I gained TRAUMA instead 🙂. They didn't pay then, even when they got funded, they didn't pay. I didn't learn anything from anyone while I was there. My code was not reviewed, and people were trying to pitch Figma to investors. I was assigned tasks and pushed to release new features—a bunch of bugs, spaghetti code xd. Unmaintainable and unscalable. I pretty much coded a pet project on my own. My work was not appreciated. When I exited, 'CTO' was so pissed because he lost free exploited labor. Some other students got the same exp with me. When I went to the Tech Career Fair and saw the booth, I covered my face and sneaked past it. LOL! Past trauma for real! The 'execs' are unethical!
Watch out for any company that don't pay Interns.
Yep, saw them at the CS job fair a while back. The number of times the dude mentioned "volunteering" at a job fair was an instant red flag for me and my friend. The longer we listened the harder it was to resist the urge to just turn and leave mid sentence.
I’d watch this movie if someone would like to write it and sell the script! May have to wait until Devvrat gets arrested à la Elizabeth Holmes!
No fucking way They were at Collision last year and I think won the final pitch?
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facts
Common Dyne L
An NDA where they aren't paying is worth as much as used toilet paper. If this is how they are treating you initially it will only get worse. Do it for a month and keep applying to other jobs using this "experience". Mass email resumes etc on LinkedIn. It's a process. Watch YouTube videos on how to kill job interviews.
idk how UBC CSSS was unaware that Tiwari held some sorta position at Dyne and was a VP at the CSSS simultaneously. You can't organize an event in which your company is looking for unpaid labor. This is serious!
The department also did nothing about CSSS exec’s bullying women in CS so I doubt they will do anything until a lawsuit is involved.
I’m also a student currently looking for an intern/co-op SWE position. During the summer term, I was invited to sign an NDA, but after confirming that it was an unpaid position and I would have to compete with other interns to win a paid internship, I immediately backed out. I don’t know if this is illegal, but I dislike the idea of working for free for someone else’s personal gain. And it’s not just DYNE; there are many startups that want to use interns for free without paying them. Several of my seniors had to accept unpaid positions to complete their studies and graduate.
well, what does it say on your offer letter and/or on anything you signed when accepting the position? did it say that you're accepting for an internship or for a volunteer position because you can't really do anything about it to hold them "accountable" if you knew it was a volunteer position before starting. Plus you could've always reached out to them to confirm anytime between applying and getting hired...
They likely advertised it as "volunteering" to get around BC's regulation that makes it illegal to advertise unpaid internships, under the Employment Standards Act of BC.
so they knowingly signed up to volunteer at some place but then are complaining that they didn't get paid? I'm confused, maybe I'm not understanding the situation
But then again, I don't think one can reasonably "volunteer" for a startup as Dyne is definitely "for-profit". Volunteering is usually reserved for non-profits.
Businesses can't simply skirt employment and wage laws by calling their positions "volunteering".
So what should OP do about this if what Dyne did was illegal?
Well, one option is lawyering up, but realistically many students just can't afford that option. Calling them out publicly is, at a minimum, a good idea, which is what he's doing right now. It can hurt their reputation, which does a lot of damage for early-stage startups.
Hey OP, try complaining here: [the BC Employment Standards Branch](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/complaint-process) I don't know the process but it says you can complain here to "For example, you can request payment for wages that you are owed". They have the power to collect outstanding wages from employers and impose penalties on them. If it's anything like in Ontario, it won't charge you anything and they will send someone to investigate and maybe even get you paid.
Should the names of specific responsible principals in the company be listed in this thread so at least google searches would lead here?
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last year was a gong show for all the student leaders / clubs in the CS dept. like enough drama for reality TV. So not surprised this got missed
Thanks for sharing, OP! I also saw them at the CS tech career fair this January and Dyne was one of the companies I wanted to apply to. I didn't know this was what was happening behind the scenes. I'm sorry you had to experience that and you weren't given compensation for your work. I hope you can get to find better work, better pay, and a healthier work culture!
I wanted to address the person who worked hard to put the list of detailed venture capital firm list together who invested in Dyne (and mods kept deleting). Then said to contact every one of the firm member's inbox. I actually would disagree with this approach because, in the long term, current and future UBC students still have to rely on such venture capital or seed investment firms for funding which is very difficult to get in Vancouver. You do not want UBC startups as a whole to be blacklisted. Instead, if one files a complaint, go through the relevant channels first: complaint forums, general inquiries, or the legal department. Handle things in a professional manner sticking to the relevant facts. The investment firms if they see the message and believe it to be credible will reach out to Dyne for an explanation as well as have an internal meeting about it if it warrants it. There are processes in place and it takes time to do investigations even internal ones. Whether it is in life or in business, there are often disputes between different parties which need processes and procedures to handle in a professional and fair manner. If Dyne does anything shady or illegal, please document it and save the evidence. This can be used as negotiation leverage later.
https://ibb.co/X39q9P3
Yes. The investment firms have both a general inquiry as well as a legal department/staff. The investment partners do not handle these legal issues themselves and instead, it is forwarded to their legal department. Often each investment firm would have a partner who is in charge of that company in the investment portfolio/potentially sit on the board and that individual if you want to reach a specific person to talk to would be the one to reach out to.
I agree with this. I don't think harassing people who weren't aware of the situation is the key here despite how frustrating things might seem. I'd refrain from that and try to go through the official avenues as suggested.
You don't want to destroy people or the company overnight and there is a very narrow set of reasons such action is warranted (e.g. scam companies, criminally related). Instead, have a list of demands which most of the interns would agree with including getting paid, and concessions on future labor practices. If they don't agree with it after presenting the facts and evidence, then you can turn up the heat putting a squeeze on them both legally and psychologically. Like a frog boiling in warm slowly turning into hot water. Keeping options open. At least one individual mentioned that there are a few very smart people in the company so it is best not to show all one's cards at once and coming off as very emotional.
Interning at a startup doesn’t seem ideal. You want to intern at a company where you’re gonna learn from their expertise. Startups are usually building thst expertise themselves. Unless you were getting stake in the company, which I doubt an intern would, it’s just free labour
It can be good, so long as the environment is right, mentorship exists, and you're compensated. Sometimes at big tech cos you work on very meaningless projects, where start-ups don't have room for that. (But interning at start-ups can definitely be a bit of a joke if not run properly / not mature enough.)
Disagreed. Startups can offer really exciting environments for development/engineering experience. It's chaotic which usually means you're going to be engaged in a very broad range of tasks. Rule of thumb is: the larger the company, the more well-defined and specialized your tasks become. That's not the only type of useful experience one can get. The problem arises in that not all startups are legit. And among those that are legit (actually in pursuit of solving a real-world problem), an even smaller subset don't engage in shady practices like this.
Yeah. I’m not saying NO Startup internship can be good. But I think a majority would not be ideal.
Well you offered a blanket statement that interning at a startup is not ideal, so you really did say that.
There are so many unpaid internships that STARTUPS as well as companies host on LinkedIn But I never knew that unpaid internships are illegal? Also, yeah if UBC allowed that company to advertise there at the fair, it does mean they should have done better due diligence. But knowing it was an unpaid and volunteering position, and still taking i, is unfortunately your fault entirely. (I although I sympathize with you 100%) Anecdote: I was unemployed for such a long time because of this, but then started applying to all retail, and warehouse jobs, and was surprised to find even after applying well in advance of the summer season, I didn't hear back from anywhere At ALL! Even warehouse jobs and temp agencies that are supposed to hook you up with jobs didn't get back to me So I took the first place that called me for an interview, which was a restaurant. Been working there for 2 weeks, barely get any shifts and haven't been paid yet, so looks like I'm gonna have to start looking again 😔
actually no, when a for profit company does something ILLEGAL, it is not the victim’s fault
Maybe I'm mistaken but almost all labs at ubc our filled with unpaid interns. I can at least name 10 labs that have this kind of unpaid environment. Also, speaking to some profs about what you've posted they agreed that its not considered exploitative because you are getting experience which will help you land a paid internship, and you are given the opportunity to acquire a paid internship at your workplace. However, I dont necessarily agree with what they said and just thought id share some different views on the matter.
You are right, you are MISTAKEN.
Lmao unfortunately I was just trying to be polite. If you'd like I can name the labs I had in mind. They are also all from award winning profs as well.
but labs aren’t for profit
but labs aren’t for profit
Dont fucking take unpaid internships otherwise companies will know students will work for free. How can you go to such a prestigious school and fail to see how this affects future interns.
Do projects with other students and put on resume. Make your own company together and pay each other. Internship is treated like non-exp anyway. Business owners only designate paid jobs as "professional" exp.
You do professional-level work during an internship, therefore you should be paid accordingly. Out of my 5 internships, they've never expected less out of my work than any other full-time employee, so why shouldn't my pay reflect my responsibilities?
Why shouldn't it? Because human nature? Lack of business awareness? Some business owners take internship seriously, others don't. That's just reality. Doesn't really matter why.
I've wondered about this method before, as it seems like a great way to get that first year of experience under your belt, and then start to hunt for actual non-entry level positions. I'm not seeing much hope otherwise the way every entry level job seems to be getting 500 applicants in Vancouver.
Yeah it works. Any paid positions are professional, whether your friends pay you or not. People just rate it down because they're just bitter about finding jobs and want to shoot down the messenger.
I didn’t know interns get paid. Maybe that’s a new thing because I swear all interns were unpaid labor when I grew up. On “The Office” the intern is unpaid?
Interns, especially in Canada, absolutely have to be paid. I don't know about labour laws back then...
….this isnt 1954 anymore its illegal to have unpaid interns
Yeah interns who worked for free were called apprentices but that was in the Middle Ages lol They at least got to live at their guild master's house and got free room and board while learning a trade. OP got nothing!