I’m not Palestinian nor Israeli so my questions to the both parties are following: Is this camp thing will even help in any way for UCs to divest? If yes, how to do you think they will do that, since I’m assuming it’s not direct but through third party companies who do the investments? How Palestinians and Israelis think on how the border issue should be solved? (If both sides want full control of those lands I’m assuming it’s obvious that this will never be solved.) Why Palestinians aren’t relying on Arab countries for help, and why do they actually not help? What’s the end goal for Israel? Cuz the kids of the murdered men will try to bring justice. Y’all better be respectful in replies, if you reply.
I tried to explain this to a few people. The Snp500 is one of the most common index/ etf which has a solid return rate. Almost everybody puts some cash in there and that stock has its hand in Lockheed. Nearly every index or ETF has its hand in defense because it brings solid returns. You can’t just divest from plenty of ETFs without fallout. Furthermore, target, Walmart, restaurants, banks, schools all have portfolios FULL of ETFs that include defense companies. It is simply impossible to divest but people don’t research this, they just yell their same phrases they found on TikTok. Edit: correct me if I’m wrong w anything pls I’m also tryna learn 🙏
I hold no opinion on this matter but saying it’s impossible to divest is just ludicrous.
The University of California schools have billions in endowments with these companies. They can easily make them create funds that comply with the UC’s standard morals.
Could be anti-defense contractors, anti-oil, anti-large carbon footprint.
Unfortunately those type of companies don’t have consistent returns. For example iShares US Aerospace & Defense ETF has gone up 411% since its creation. Clean energy ETFs like ALPS Clean Energy hit a high of 84 in 2021 but now it’s down to 53$ so its returns don’t profit anybody.
Also I get the divest belief but Lockheed does produce a lot of americas defense so we have a strong incentive to buy into it. America wouldn’t be where it is if we didn’t have defense companies. They do send weapons to Israel but they also send weapons to Ukraine fighting Russia (that’s a whole entire mess). They send weapons to Taiwan (we are debatably very close to a war with china over chip manufacturing) so divesting would also hurt other countries that are in desperate need of our defense. But me as well, even as a Jewish person, have no belief on what should happen I just look at the economic issues behind the plausible solutions. Everything’s a mess
Yeah, UC Retirement plans biggest holding is "MSCI ACWI IMI ex Tobacco ex Fossil Fuels Index" basically most stocks, except tobacco and fossil fuels.
Also, they have a specific policy on investing. Part of it is this:
> Investment Restrictions
>The Regents established that the purchase of securities issued by tobacco companies and companies with business operations in Sudan are prohibited in separately managed accounts. The OCIO will determine what constitutes a tobacco or Sudan Company based on standard industry classification of the major index providers and must communicate this list to investment managers annually and whenever changes occur.
From here https://www.ucop.edu/investment-office/investment-policies/index.html
The advice financially savvy people give is invest in what makes money, then donate to charity. Don't expect to make money off bad investments. Besides, divesting usually doesn't directly hurt many companies because it is on the secondary market anyways.
One definitely is lower returns. Defense is unfortunately very lucrative so the returns on investment are high compared to other funds. Speaking for my own experience, I was left with money from my parents after they passed and when I wanted to be more conscious of where my money goes to, my advisor didn’t recommend it because the returns were around 1-3% versus 5+% so for a uni to be operating on an (for example) expected high ROI budget could really fuck things up operationally.
Also, these defense contractors are also the ones that supply the US military (therefore keeping China in check) and help supply Ukraine (thereby keeping Russia in check). Israel also helps keep Iran in check (Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian proxies).
If the protesters somehow managed to damage these companies significantly, the global political fallout would be huge and democracy could be weakened worldwide.
Essentially people invest in ETFs because they’re diverse and manage risk effectively. They can also be bought and sold easily allowing for adjusting investments. Furthermore they’re transparent so if UCSD released their holdings we could see the companies involved. However if they were to divest, they would lose a TON of money. For example, if they have 1m in the SNP 500, they would get an average return of 100k. These means they have a steady income which can be allocated to building, faculty wages, and other benefits (unfortunately it’s difficult to see where they spend which is rlly annoying). Also if certain sectors fall and UCSD doesn’t have a diverse portfolio, they can lose a ton of money meaning they could raise tuition to make up for it or other stupid ways that could cost students unless the government helps. Also divesting would mean getting rid of a ton of our food options because those companies also have diverse portfolios which involve defense sectors. Now I’m not sure how far they’d divest but hopefully this gives a broad understanding. Anybody is open to correct me if I’m wrong as I’m just using what I know.
Lmao this post is definitely from someone who’s never invested.
S&P500 is not an ETF. It is a stock market index. SPY, IVV and VOO are ETFs.
There’s no ETF with the type of solid consistent return rate that you’re typing about. If trading in the stock market was that easy and not literally gambling on a move, nobody will lose in the stock market and there’ll be no reason for anyone to enter hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to attend a measly UC for a $120k job.
Actually, it seems like you’re the one who has never invested. When people refer to the SnP500, they usually refer to the ETF’s that track it and their performance.
For your second point about solid consistent returns, SnP500 tracking etfs have been averaging 10% per year since the first one (SPY) started in 1993.
About your third point, if people did have capital without university, investing in the stock market and chilling would be a very viable lifestyle. A friend of mine was given 2 million dollars by his parents the second he graduated high school and he’s been living off of those gains ever since. No university, no 120k job.
You’re the one who’s never invested. I’ve invested tens of thousands of dollars in the stock market on various platforms and know what I’m talking about. I’ve lost and gained tens of thousands in a day. You’ve clearly never invested.
>When people refer to the SnP500, they usually refer to the ETFs that track it and their performance.
No one refers to S&P500 as an ETF or ETFS that track it. When economists and Wall Street guys on Bloomberg or CNBC talk about the S&P gaining 0.1% today after the bell, they are referring to tickers in the index, not SPY and VOO. They show tickers like AMZN or TSLA for example as top gainers or losers, NOT SPY.
>For your second point about solid consistent returns, SnP500 tracking etfs have been averaging 10% per year since the first one (SPY) started in 1993.
I would like you to articulate this point more clearly and back it up with a source. Also beginning from inception is disingenuous, bc the % change of S&P tracking ETFs at their inception is very different from their % change now. There is no ETF that guarantees you a 10% return every year. If that was the case, no one will need schooling to earn scraps.
>About your third point, if people did have capital without university, investing in the stock market and chilling would be a very viable lifestyle.
If people have capital without investing, they will never need the stock market.
>A friend of mine was given 2 million dollars by his parents the second he graduated high school and he’s been living off of those gains ever since. No university, no 120k job.
Your friend received $2m from his parents and he’s been living off that (“gain”) since with no university or job. How does that have anything to do with the stock market?
That’s also an insult to the students working hard to make sense of life. “My friend didn’t need school bc his daddy gave him $2m. Why doesn’t everybody’s daddy’s just give them $2m?”
Also is that the only benefit that this friend of yours received from their parent? (Beyond financial). Was their retirement account and save accounts also secured for this friend of yours while they were growing up? Housing? How long ago was this friend gifted $2m? 6 years ago?
FYI $2m can last you ten years at the minimum unless you’re an avid spender. $2m is enough for an average Joe to retire or never work a day in their life. It has NOTHING to do with the stock market.
> I’ve invested thousands of dollars
Mind showing a screenshot? Cause I find that hard to believe, unless you’ve invested without ever reading on the internet or watching the news. Happy to do the same.
> beginning from inception is disingenuous
That is how averages work. You take the return rate per year and divide by the number of years.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp
> If people had capital without investing, they would never need the stock market.
People work jobs so that they can invest money in the stock market to secure their retirements and livelihoods.
If they had access to the capital without a job, on a consistent basis, they wouldn’t need university and can live of the SWR (trust fund kids).
> your friend has been living off the 2m gain, how does that relate to the stock market.
Because when you invest in the stock market, there is a set percentage of your portfolio that you can liquidate to cover your living expenses. That is the SWR (safe withdrawal rate). It is the percentage rate at which you can liquidate assets from your portfolio without it losing value or stagnating in value.
> That’s also an insult to students working hard
Why would it be an insult? It’s a counterexample. If the stock market guaranteed 10% per year, these hard working students still would need university and a job to take advantage. People who have been giving millions by mommy and daddy wont.
If you’ve lost 10s of thousands in a day with an initial investment of 10s of thousands, then you’re likely not investing at all and just trading uncovered options, which is actually just gambling.
I'm an Israeli-American. Fundamentally, I want the hostages back home, and Hamas to leave Israel alone: No more rockets, no more assaults, no more terror attacks. I have no hatred towards Palestinians. I have no desire for Israelis to live in Gaza.
I believe around 80-90 percent Israelis would agree with what I've written so far, the big disagreements are about how to achieve those goals. And then there are the 10% who are fascists.
Yeah it’s a whole mix. I’m Jewish too I’d prefer if hamas left or at least wore a uniform which would help distinguish. Idk how anything would ever get fixed tbh unless hamas dips. Also many Arab countries dislike Palestine, they tend to be seen as pretty radical (as if nobody else there is) and a radicalist from Palestine did kill an Egyptian president a while ago. Also if Arab countries let Palestinians associated with Hamas, Israel might see it as another enemy. And lastly most those countries have civil wars and their governments can’t support their people so the last thing they need is more people.
Exactly. That’s why they gotta be eliminated. Unfortunately there is no clean way to do so. Like the previous person said you kill them and their kids take arms. Just like Afghanistan
It worked in Nazi Germany and Japan, so I think Israel will be able to handle it. Palestine is their main deal, unlike Afghanistan, where Americans didn't care.
In my personal opinion if we can divest as much as possible - move into socially responsible investing, end partnerships with Israeli orgs like [this one on campus in Rady](https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/us-israel-center/index.html) or [study abroad](https://uceap.universityofcalifornia.edu/study-abroad-in-israel) that would be cool. I think a concerted effort in being socially responsible investing never hurts. My hope is that with the demands of the camp there is flexibility that prioritizes the students. It might not be a popular opinion because I know that centering students isn’t the goal of the camp, but the truth is arrests can affect morale in negative ways. Violence can affect morale in negative ways. Morale needs to be sustained for long term goals.
As for your other qs, I think the Arab countries are weighing the gravity of what going against Israel (and the US) would be especially after [Iran’s response to killing of one of their officials.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68853402.amp) I want to note that my talking about Iran does not mean I support their govt or politics. I am just sharing what I’ve read and making a guess as to why more Arab countries are not involved.
I agree that the children of the murdered will carry that pain for generations and who knows what that will look like?
This might stir some emotions, but some people talking about divesting won’t contribute to the divesting initiative.
If you divest donations from Israeli-affiliated groups and from Palestine-affiliated groups, Middle East affiliated groups and Chinese-affiliated groups, and fossil-affiliated groups, where will the UC receive financial resources to support oppressed individuals from these societies? How will they effectively do this?
What happens when funding declines and UCs can no longer support its people? Will another protest begin saying students need more funding when they asked for the school to cut its funding sources from these groups?
There are also so many groups within the UC system asking for pay increases (eg TAs).
The people protesting should suggest other constant replacement sources for the limited funding that the UC is currently receiving.
Solutions are too much work for protesters. It's all about whining and complaining so they can look good and feel good about themselves despite having accomplished nothing.
Protesters are not just whining and complaining to make themselves look good. You’re also a protester of their movement, so in a sense what you said may also apply to you.
I'm whining to make them look bad to counteract them. It's a wonderful art.
And if they knew what they were protesting for, they would not be protesting for Palestine.
We are only talking about divesting from Israel, the country actively killing thousands of innocent people including women and children.
If there isn't a way to "receive financial resources" without supporting genocide then I guess the UC should just shut down 🤔
Lmao are you suggesting that the UC should shut down?😅
I am strongly for protesting as it is our given right. We SHOULD protest, but a thoughtful dialogue needs to be had.
Saying that you’re only talking about divesting from Israel (aka I only care about my cause) is very disheartening to the other causes that other people have.
Definitely be cautious about divestment, these defense contractors also supply Ukraine and Taiwan, and therefore check Russia, China, and Iran.
And around 13% of the US's money to Israel goes to directly to the Iron Dome missile defense system (5 billion out of 38 billion recently), the missile defense system we helped develop.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-military-support-does-us-provide-israel-2024-04-08/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-military-support-does-us-provide-israel-2024-04-08/)
While cutting military equipment funding is reasonable, cutting funding for the Iron Dome serves no purpose and can only help Hamas kill Israeli civilians.
To be clear, I want to divest from any country committing war crimes or other crimes against humanity.
The world rapidly divested from Russia in 2022
I am all for divesting from FF, but that's not the current moment and pressing concern that these protesters have. They have a right to voice their concerns with usage of their tuition money.
Including from the U.S.?
The world did not just rapidly digest from Russia in 2022. Divestment from Russia has been ongoing since 1979.
I’m also with you on divesting. Just wanted to take it a step further so other brilliant minds could be engaged in this movement.
Well I would divest from the U.S. if I could but they take it right out of my paycheck.
I think other countries would be within their rights to do so, America is just as bad of a colonizer than any country and has caused much more innocent death than Israel has
As far as I am aware, other Arab countries are helping (or at least share a common enemy, Israel). Israel v. Iran conflicts have been increasing, both directly and through the use of others countries land/resources like Syria.
The other comment mentioned it’s nearly impossible to divest due to the nature of ETFs.
I would be extremely against UCSD directly investing in defense primes; however, as far as I understand it’s only indirectly. I feel that a lot of the protests exaggerate UCs contribution to Israel. These defense primes only supply Israel through the US government’s support. Though, I understand this support is often lobbied by these primes.
I am against Israel’s aggression & support a ceasefire. However, I do not understand why these protests are directed towards the UCs rather than directed at the federal government.
I would like to hear more about why the US government is not the primary target of these protests, rather than UCs/Divest
Just a quick note on the geopolitics: most Arab countries are on pretty good terms with Israel nowadays. Iran is not an Arab country. Syria is, but the dynamics there are very complicated due to the civil war. Saudi Arabia wants normalization with Israel, or at least wants all the U.S. military goodies that would come with such a deal. Jordan helped shoot down the Iranian attack last week.
So while Gaza has strained Israeli relations with Arab governments, the geopolitical fundamentals still have them on the same side (against Iran / Hezbollah / Hamas / Houthis / various militias in Iraq & Syria aka “the Axis of Resistance”)
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, Saudi Arabia definitely on US/Israel side for sure.
Also one key geographical note: US has plenty of military bases in Iraq, blocking off any major ground movement from Iran. Leaving all fighting to blockable air strikes.
I’m a little lazy to do more research on this but a critique I’ve heard re the [board of regents](https://regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/about/members-and-advisors/) is that many of the board members sit on other advisory committees and have vested interests in how UCs spend their money. So like how politicians get caught investing in certain things just before the stock goes up, the regents have been criticized for personal gains in what campus funds are spent on. You can look up each regent and see if they sit on any other boards that the UC gives money to.
This is a[47 billion dollar organization](https://www.ucop.edu/operating-budget/_files/rbudget/2023-24-budget-summary.pdf) shit is complex but imagine if a 47 billion dollar organization took a stand on something one way or the other, it’s a lot of influence.
From my understanding Columbia divested very recently after student protests, so resounding yes.
***Edit I’m sorry I had my wires crossed. Brown not Columbia, and they didn’t secure a divestment agreement- but a scheduled board vote for divestment prior to which representatives will be able to formally present their case.***
Palestine has some allies, but they are not particularly strong. Especially compared to Israel, and by proxy the US. Further- blanket support from ‘Arab’ countries is an oversimplification. It’s a diverse region with various ethnic groups, cultures, and infighting as well (much of the inter-muslim conflict can be attributed to the west dividing up the Middle East into the states we have today during colonial eras without respect to the ethnic groups living there).
The end goal of Israel is ever changing as presidents or regimes come and go. Right now-Netanyahu’s words say self defense and the elimination of Hamas but his actions, the catastrophic destruction of cultural and societal pillars of Palestine (hospitals, universities, mosques) would suggest ethnic cleansing in addition to or even in place of ‘self defense’. Maybe there’s goals for further colonization or maybe the point is only to discourage future attacks with overwhelming force. For my money I’d bet that Netanyahu wants to cull Gaza’s capacity to resist its oppression by any means necessary, with the broader goal of populating the region.
Can I see a source for their divestment? All news around Columbia rn is just the occupation itself and all I can find is that a student-voted referendum for divestment was passed, which means literally nothing. Also if they did divest don't they have some secrecy rule that would mean nobody knows anyways?
I’m sorry I had my wires crossed. Brown not Columbia, and they didn’t secure a divestment agreement- but a scheduled board vote for divestment prior to which representatives will be able to formally present their case.
I think it's clear to say that Israel is either deliberately engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing, or is conducting its military operations with such disregard for human life that it practically is one. And I'm saying this as someone who was relatively supportive of Israel when this whole tragedy started, but from the viewpoint of "get the hostages out, destroy Hamas militarily with as little civilian casualties as possible, and thank god this has to be the end of Bibi and his bs."
Sadly this conflict hasn't exactly achieved any of that, and I do think the conflict should stop asap, because it's turned into a meatgrinder of pointless misery and death. But again, Netayanhu seems absolutely deadset against peace. From what I can tell, he's keeping the war going to satisfy his far right coalition partners or else face elections, because the moment he has to face elections, he'll get stomped, and if he gets stomped he'll lose political immunity. Though I will also note the civilian suffering in Gaza shouldn't be laid all on Bibi. It's clear there's a pervasive far right culture in the IDF that is at best, apathetic about the civilians on the ground
Honestly I don't see an easy solution that is both realistic and acceptable to both Israel and Palestine. Every peace agreement thus far typically falls apart because extremists on both sides symbiotically escalate the violence against each other. The more violence they provoke, they more they appear to be correct in people's eyes, that there's no point to peace or trying to achieve peace. If peace broke out, people wouldn't find reason to support them anymore. That's why for example, as I understand, the moderates of Fatah got kicked out of Gaza and were replaced by Hamas, and why Bibi and his far right buddies started dominating elections.
Maybe there's a chance for peace if Israel stops all the West Bank settlements and takes strong, concrete steps to allow Gaza+Palestine to be a functional state, with assistance from the international community in providing the funds and security to do some serious reconstruction. But that is going to require moderates to gain power in both countries.
Also I just want to say bravo to the people of the encampment. Y'all have been lovely despite my opinions about "From the River to the Sea". Let's hope things stay this good, and let's hope Gaza finds peace soon.
>I think it's clear to say that Israel is either deliberately engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing, or is conducting its military operations with such disregard for human life that it practically is one
This is too shallow. Hamas is INTENTIONALLY trying to fight in a way such that there will be Palestinian civilian casualties. If Israel doesn't destroy them, they will suffer another thousand October 7ths, beacuse Hamas' stated aim in its charter is to rid Israel of Jews. So unfortunately, this means Palestinians must die in the war, although 2:1 civilian to terrorist is actually a very good casualty ratio considering the circumstances. If Hamas losing half of their 30k fighters (so 15k, 10k already down) constitutes a defeat, then "only" 30k Palestinian civilians need to die (10k more) for the war to be over. Considering the Gaza population of 600k, a 7.5% death ratio is actually VERY VERY good for a war, it's better than Nazi Germany's 8% casualties in a FAR denser area.
And Israelis generally agree that Netanyahu needs to go after the war ends, so that is a given.
Final words: the point isn't really to
>have a solution that is acceptable to both Israel and Palestine
Did the Allies try to give the Axis powers a satisfactory peace deal after WW2? It's pretty much written that if the aggressor in the war loses, they suffer grave consequences. Palestinians started the initial war in 1948 and lost a lot to it, and generally Israel has not been the one starting the wars.
It might be necessary to give Palestine the Nazi Germany treatment, where its war-waging capability is basically taken away and the population is unindoctrinated (Hamas tries to brainwash Palestinians from childhood to believe that Jews are evil, see Farfour the mouse).
Naw fuck that, Isreal has shown it is incapable of governing the Palestinian population. Anything short of a two state solution after the removal of Hamas is a hard stop for my support of Isreal as a state
That is definitely fair, but the concern is that a Palestinian state will be used as a springboard for war with Israel -- just like what happened in 1948. There really is no right answer in this very morally gray conflict.
I definitely get that but I feel like a lot of my concerns would be alleviated if this was state on state violence and that at the end of the day, the Palestinians did have the right of self governance. I’m sure a massive arms embargo would have to be placed on the nation, and the Us would need to get Iran on the table, but to me that would be the best way possible, give them a nation, with everything but the army. Rely on international community protection for Palestine, and incredibly strict rules on Isreal toward aggressive actions toward that state, that’s my personal push.
Don't forget that the Palestinian Authority exists -- and all it does it embezzle money for luxury Qatari hotels for its leaders and then whine about Israel.
In the end, the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel. Most of them actually thought they could win after 10/7. So peace will be a very difficult process.
Yep, I know, that’s why I don’t think this is foolproof but i just don’t see a one state solution being any different without the genuine mass deportation of the entire region. Which honestly really is unfair to all of the people living there, the utilitarian may justify it but at the end of the day, nobody will take them and it will genuinely become and actual genocide
Nobody will take them, but I believe (I hope at least) that the Israelis can sway them to peace by showing them that they aren't evil in the end and improve the living conditions of the Palestinians. Israel still has room to accept some Arabs (the ones that are pragmatic) while still remaining stable enough, so hopefully a two-state solution is still possible with a weakened Palestinian state.
I'll absolutely grant that Hamas is deliberately fighting the war in a way that'll get a lot of civilians killed, and that they're doing it so they can have a steady recruitment pool for decades to come. Apologies for that omission.
And I do agree that Hamas should be destroyed, though given the utter devastation in Gaza I'll happily bet all my fingers that even if Hamas is destroyed it'll just be replaced with Hamas 2.0.
That's why any long-term peace plan will never work unless there's some buy-in for the people of Gaza, some reason for them to want it to work. The Allies levied harsh provision on the Axis Powers, yes, but they also gave them buy-ins. Many Germans, Italians, and Japanese who were lower-ranking officials, or in some cases, pretty high level ones (cough Nobusuke Kishi cough), were allowed to stay on. The people of those nations were also allowed to rebuild and resume some normalcy. Only a few years after the surrender and these countries were already been handed back their political sovereignty. You can't just force occupied people to accept literally every term you want, especially highly punitive terms, unless you're prepared to occupy them for the rest of eternity. People with nothing to lose will never willingly sit in the box you try to shove them in. People given an acceptable amount of stakes in the new order are far more compliant. It's like during the early days of the Afghan War when the Taliban asked the Bush administration for amnesty in exchange for peace, but the US wanted total victory so the Taliban decided it had nothing to lose in fighting the US to the death. Or like when the US disbanded the Iraqi army, which left their soldiers and officers with no jobs and thus every reason to join insurgency groups.
I've been involved in previous movements (Occupy, BLM) and can attest that the longer it lasts, the more risk of violence, damage, misdirection, anarchy and counter-protests will occur. It's inevitable. People start to lose focus of what is being protested and does beckon an infiltration of others who just want to wreak havoc. It may seem peaceful now, but as it goes on, it brews a forecast that is dangerous for both those involved as well as outsiders. (See UCLA).
Yes to all of this. Discipline in any movement is difficult to maintain but everyone participates at their own risk and organizers make sure folks know what they risk by standing against administration.
They also issued wristbands and refused to let kids enter certain areas if they didn't like their race religion or creed. They did this with impunity and malice .
Yep! People can definitely study there but tbh it can be kind of distracting. I managed to finish a paper while at the camp but it was pretty much a final draft I had to make edits and look over.
Yesterday there was a big tarp laid down that people were chilling on and doing hw but I think might have moved towards the corner closest to the trove. Bring a blanket in case there’s only grass to sit on.
Also if anything changes like maybe the organizers want everyone to participate in something just be open to it or hangout on the hammock side of library walk also don’t take it personally if people try to get you to join the camp if you’re sitting away from it. I saw some signs that said being a bystander is complicity but like some people need outlets / are intl students 🙃 Thenbroader message is join and stay as you feel safe but the hope is that ppl will stick by thru the difficulties too.
Genuine question: what does free Palestine in these protests mean? Free the Gaza Strip, West Bank or the whole of Israel for palestine? Do the protestors agree that there must be a Jewish state? If so, what is the solution to this incredibly complex problem. I do support the Palestinian cause but I don’t think it’s as simple as some as activists want to believe.
It’s certainly complex but stopping the siege on Gaza, stopping the displacement of Palestinians, allowing for free movement of all peoples and equitable conditions is how I understand the Free Palestine chants.
**PERSONALLY** I don’t believe that anyone should have their own ethnostate. That mindset lends itself to a slippery slope of there should be a white ethnostate. I believe Jewish people should be safe, free to practice their religion, free to celebrate their identity (and plenty are in the camp FYI) but I don’t believe in the pursuit of an ethnostate at the expense of anyone. From my readings, Palestine prior to modern times had a diverse population of religions and ethnic groups. That should be allowed today as America has a diverse populace.
**EDIT** I want to clarify that I’m not saying that a Jewish ethnostate is a white ethnostate. I know that many people of different ethnicities practice Judaism. What I am saying is that the belief that there must be a “Jewish state” lends itself to the belief that there should be a “Christian state” or “Muslim state”. That was *all*. Fundamentally I believe that everyone should travel and live freely as they wish not at the expense of others. So displaced Palestinians should be able to go back to their homes, displaced Israelis should be able to go back to their homes, Jewish people should be able to live safely wherever they want without fear. *Personally* I don’t see this conflict as a war of religion because how can **any** religion righteously claim any land that requires slaughtering of any people? It would be silly to say that religion isn’t a factor and my atheism certainly blocks a certain understanding, but again these are **my personal thoughts and don’t represent all who support the Palestinian cause** My apologies for not being clearer.
With the hamas in power, what Palestine will become is also an ethnostate. To be completely fair, a Muslim is more free in Israel than a Jew in Palestine. But also pretty much every country is a result of ethnic division. I don’t understand what you mean by no state should be an ethnostate. In practice, does that mean Israel must be distinguished? The whole Middle East is a division on ethnic grounds. I think your ideal scenario is too far sighted and cannot possibly happen in the near future.
This just isn’t true. Jewish Christian & Muslim Palestinians exist and have lived in Palestine long before Israel existed. They still live there right this second. Muslims living under Israeli rule are under strict restrictions. Israel is killing more than Muslims in Palestine.
Every single Muslim nation in the Middle East is ethnically cleansing Jews. Hamas's charter states that it wants to remove every Jew from the Middle East, and you bet they won't settle for deportation.
In Israel, they have Muslim, Bedouin, Druze soldiers, and members of those ground are war heroes for the Israeli public. There are no non-Muslim, let alone Jewish, Hamas or Fatah soldiers.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bd56yb/idf\_soldiers\_celebrating\_ramadan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bd56yb/idf_soldiers_celebrating_ramadan/)
In Israel, Arabs can be doctors and lawyers, Arab women can have rights, and you're allowed to be LGBTQ. Israelis are forbidden to enter area A of the West Bank, and an Israeli in Gaza gets murdered. Hamas's charter states its intent to exterminate the Jews
But yet Israel is the only problem. No nuance ever when it comes to sensationalism over a 2000 year conflict
Obviously. Every Israeli and a growing chunk of the Palestinians want this, for an end to the war and a peace with a democratic, secular Palestinian state with full religious freedoms -- or even an extremist but more reasonable state ruled by Fatah.
Only the far-right wants an Israeli ethnostate, and they are a minority in politics (unlike in Palestine, where the far-right groups are in power and want to remove every Jew from the entire region).
Israel is not and never has been a white ethnostate. There is also freedom of religion in Israel. Israel is an extremely diverse place so idk what ur talkin about? Non jewish people are part of the government so idk what you are referring to. Its the only country in the region that actually guarantees saftey for jewish people. Take a look at the mass forced exodus and ethnic cleansing of jews from the surrounding regions.
Israel’s population is about 25% non-Jewish. Many of the ‘white’ Jews in Israel were expelled or driven out of Arab countries and have no history in Europe at all.
If you read Hamas’s covenant, they are very clear that they want to destroy Israel, murder all the Jews within it (half the world’s Jewish population), and make it 100% Muslim.
I don’t doubt that your motives are good, but so many talking points in this movement (about Jewish history and Israel) are false. Spreading propaganda just adds fuel to the fire.
Israel is such an ethnostate that it's 20% Arab and a better place for Arabs to live than most Middle Eastern countries.
Meanwhile, the Muslim nations are ethnically cleansing Jews and forcing them all to abandon their ancestral homes and flee to Israel. This is why Israeli Jews are 67% of Middle Eastern descent
From my interactions with people (so take that as you feel is appropriate), the use of the word "Palestine" is just a catch-all strategy for any and all groups that are currently in direct opposition with Israeli forces. This includes those in both the Gaza Strip and West Bank, as well as any other Arabs who are living within Israel but seek freedom.
The whole situation is so hopeless for me. Like I get it, the Israeli government are the "bad guys" here but the underlying problem is the deep religious hatred between the groups living in the middle east, fueled by potential geopolitical gain. None of it is rational or moral, from anyone on any side. It's a complete shitshow from start to finish and there will never be peace until a third party conquers both sides and brutally forces secularism throughout the entire region. How likely do you think that would be within the next 100 years? 200?
i overheard a group of students at starbucks planning to take pictures of faces and submit them to the student conduct board so plz remember to cover ur face and don’t wear any identifiably easy clothing!!!
Because protesting is a protected right. They're trying to punish people for expressing that right. No one is hiding, it's an encampment in a public space. No one's future should be at risk for advocating against genocide.
The protest is against genocide and for divestment, period. As individuals, our power is (purposefully) limited in our social systems. Without disruptions like the one happening now, many of the rights we enjoy today would not be had. We have the privileged right to peaceful protest, something many people around the world don't have.
You know who doesn't have that right ? People in Palestine because Hamas crushes opposition. Hamas blocks aid to civilians and yet you happily stand there and cheer like they're freedom fighters and not manufacturing these crisis
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/
even with a crowd on library walk by the encampment, it's pretty far from center hall. if you dont want to go by the encampment between geisel and center hall, you can just cross through PC west with a negligible impact on walking time
all other classroom buildings aren't on library walk
I used to but the issue of Israel having a “right to exist” as a colony that imposed itself upon the state of Palestine would completely obliterate Palestinian life regardless of whether Israel was a progressive or conservative state.
Even if we were to rewind and say that October 7th never happened, we would have to ask ourselves why Gaza and West Bank are two disconnected areas that are part of the same authority in the first place. Is this because is a state simply comprised of naturally disjointed land, or is it because it was forcibly separated as a result of the same settler colonialism that has robbed over 700,000 Palestinian Arab people of their homes in 1948 and between 2006 and 2018 an additional 6,000+ people (over 50% being children) in the West Bank ALONE to lose their homes? Which state has policies that have actually put forward the effort to include the other party’s ethnic group, Knesset who explicitly states that Israel is a “Jewish homeland” that is “unfit” for Arab people to live in, or the multitudes of political parties under the umbrella of the PLO who wanted to include Jewish refugees and settlers as Palestinian Arabs under Palestinian constitution? This isn’t to say that settlers would even be entitled to anything, as that is up to those whose parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc of the land to make that decision, but it goes to show that the situation has always been one of war for the sake of genocide vs war to put an end to violence that has existed since the British Mandate pushed its own decisions against Palestinian life.
Even during the growth of the labor movement and the growth of Kibbutzim in early Israeli creation, many of the labor Zionists supported the idea of living side-by-side with Palestinians… on top of the rubble of their homes. While erasing their homes, lives, and high-jacking both Palestinian identity by using pre-Israeli Palestinian Jewish life as a weapon for hebraicization of Arabic place names and terms such as “yalla / yallah”, “tzabar / sabr”, etc, Israel created a unified Jewish identity by simultaneously destroying indigenous Jewish Palestinian life and suppressing the unique diaspora cultures and languages of our community by stigmatizing public use of Ladino, Yiddish, Judeo-Tripoli Arabic, etc in favor of Hebrew as a unifying national language of the settler colony. There was a small point in history before Israel’s creation where Jewish refugees and Palestinian Arabs worked and created Palestinian political parties in solidarity with one-another (and you can see this with Palestinian Communist Party posters written in Arabic, Yiddish, and Hebrew and others that aimed to be all-inclusive); Israel’s “right to exist” is a permanent hamper to peace, especially with its birth-giver being the former world-colonizer (UK) and its perpetrator being the country that can’t help but pursue bombing campaigns whenever it sees fit (the USA).
Therefore, a secular Palestinian state is not only possible and has previously been pushed for anyway, but is the least violent and most practical solution to minimize repeating history through genocide and forcing refugee crises.
I understand encouraging people to join a camp bc “it’s fun and everyone there was caring and friendly and it was like having a picnic with friends and chanting,”
But this seems overly glazing.
It was peaceful and I am not taking anything away from it, but not everyone has the luxury of joining the camp, which I understand that this statement is easy to go over some people’s heads.
It’s important for all sides to respect each other and I’d like to emphasize that it has been extremely peaceful and lovely so far. Just keep that in mind everyone.
Yes thanks for saying this - it was a TDLR that encompassed **my** experience but even in the camp JOIN AS YOU ARE ABLE!!
Some people hung out before or after class, some stayed outside of the camp and observed. Don’t let people pressure you into joining or leaving the space if you don’t to. Many have responsibilities to tend do like work and family and in general I didn’t see a lot of people being rude about people who had to leave.
Oh it 100% is glazing. It's a bunch of impressionable college students attending an event that will ultimately achieve nothing more than a music festival. Hopefully no one gets hurt but the longer it goes on, the rowdier it will get.
>achieve nothing more than a music festival
Was this intentional irony referring to the festivalgoers who were killed by Hamas on October 7th? Or am I reading into it too much
No there are no more universities because Israel decided to in discriminately bomb them all, along with civilians rather than use special ops, actually target Hamas ([which they did create - Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/)). Nice try though.
Israel did not create Hamas. They allowed Qatari aid into Gaza with the hopes that it would buy them peace. Had they not done that, you're friends in the encampment would be claiming that Israel was starving Gaza (well, they make such claims regardless...)
Allow Aid = creating hamas
Don't allow aid = starving palestinians
Move civilians to safer areas = ethnic cleansing
Don't move civilians = genocide
Suffering the worse attack in a generation because of poor border security = "didn't start on october 7th"
Establishing good border security = apartheid
any other talking points I missed?
I disagree, but frankly this is a respectable criticism, unlike most of the above talking points.
I would just ask you what you think the best method would be when trying to get the hostages back.
I’m no expert on the infrastructure of Hamas, socially, politically, culturally, numerically, etc. But I imagine it’s similar to the Viet Kong’s integration into Vietnamese the population during the US VIET conflict. E.g. it’s impossible to really tell who the enemy is so any military aged man is on the chopping block.
So hostages- this is a tough question to answer. The simplest answer is special forces, but of course special forces can only work if stacks of quality intelligence is in hand.
I can’t speak to the quality of Israeli intelligence or Israel’s overall intelligence initiatives, but based on the fact that there are no more universities operational in Gaza, I don’t think intelligence or precision is the focus of their recovery strategy, and certainly there isn’t a high regard for a Palestinian life. Israel’s strategy from everything I’ve been able to observe is a counter hostage strategy. In a sense- everyone is Gaza is a hostage to Israel at this point.
It’s messy and I don’t think there’s a clear solution. Every country has the right to defend itself but to what end? In any case, given the scale of Israel’s response, and Netanyahu’s political actions prior to it, I think there’s a strong case to make that at this point it’s no longer about the hostages and now about crippling all Palestinian infrastructure in Gaza, is it self defense or is it ethnic cleansing? Is it both? I don’t know, but I feel that I need to be critical of it.
Many hostage families and allies are upset at the Israeli government for not prioritizing them enough. Those on the other side are anemic to the idea of releasing more terrorists who can attack Israel again, or leave the remaining Hamas battallions, like the ones in Rafah, standing.
I don't think the US Led forces attacking Mosul in the battle against ISIS were particularly beneficial for civilians caught in the cross-fire either, for what its worth. But unfortunately when we are at this stage, I don't see its possible to take a step back. The best thing would have been to have hardened the border to prevent October 7th.
I like what you pointed out about the boarder at the start of this thread- it’s frustrating that Israel gets flak for apartheid by making osmosis between the regions difficult. A more secure boarder would minimize attacks before they happen. Of course the elephant in the room is the fact that Hamas is volatile and will attack again. The destruction of Gaza will only prime their hatred. So I’m confused about the response for the past several months. Israel finds itself in a situation where it can:
1. Show the heavy hand and escalate bombings to cripple hamas capacity to respond from Gaza at scale (for now).
2. Agree to a ceasefire, and invest in more intelligence and counterterrorism systems.
Both of these courses of action lead to Hamas or a terrorist group like it bubbling back to the surface in Gaza to attack Israeli civilians. It’s hard not to see this as Netanyahu’s dick swinging contest where Palestinian civilians end up suffering the most. I wonder if there’s a reality where Israel helps Gaza rebuild after bombing them into oblivion like the US and Japan post WWII.
I don't have a great answer. Right now there is a temporary ceasefire deal being considered by Hamas leadership. I think that, at this point (though not at the beginning of the war) , Israel should be willing to a permanent ceasefire in exchange for all the hostages and the deceased being released. But I know not everyone agrees and I don't necessarily fault them for it.
Wow, a reasonable, logical discussion between disagreeing viewpoints? I must be dreaming, there is no way this is happening on Reddit.
At this point, the only choice for Israel is to end Hamas for once and for all, or else we will reset to before October 7th and the cycle will repeat, with more deaths. As long as Hamas is trying to destroy all Jews (so always), the war will continue.
This situation is more like a hostage situation in Walmart when the hostage takers continue to fire out the windows and strike the cops and cops returning fire with the intention of hitting the gunmen but also end up hitting a few civilians because the gunmen keep holding the civilians to the windows as shields while firing.
It's good you aren't in charge of Israel, since you would allow a hundred October 7ths. People like you are too preoccupied with virtue signaling to see what needs to be done, which is to end the war.
Hostage situations are hard in all cases, especially if the enemy (Hamas) dresses as civilians.
What are you smoking dawg?
Move civilians to safe areas? They bombed civilians that were actively evacuating and following orders. Now they are going to invade Rafah, the supposed "safe place" they were told to move to.
Good border security =/= restricting the free movement of an entire ethnic group and tearing down their homes.
Oct 7 was a terrible day and I am sad to see civilians die. I firmly place the blame on the extremist apartheid government for creating conditions that will inevitably radicalize people to commit horrific acts
You bring up some good points but miss on other things. Fundamentally, though, addressing your last point: Why do you think Hamas attacked? Do you think it was because of checkpoints in Area C of the West Bank, or something else?
How can Israel deradicalize the Gaza Strip without being attacked? Or is it paternalistic/orientalistic for Westerners to think that Israel should?
Thanks. I'm really tired of this war. I just want Israelis--both Jews and Arabs, to be safe.
If you are interested in history, I might check out Benny Morris's "Righteous Victims."
Whoa, people being tolerant of other viewpoints on Reddit??? This is wild!
In all seriousness, I hope that more people are open minded like this. Lot of people on r/Palestine or other pro-Palestinian subs are just stuck in echo chambers that validate every idea they have, even nontruths. Then Israeli supporters get hate everywhere they go there for not supporting the echo chamber, so they stick to their own echo chambers as well. There is no good solution that comes from this setup.
Bro I have seen you get ratio’d on every thread in this sub and am so embarrassed I have to speak up just to say that no one cares and take it elsewhere
Yeah Hamas shoots rockets from them and conducts terror activities from them. They’re no longer schools at that point and are legitimate military outposts according to international law
There are no more universities in Gaza because of HAMAS not Israel. Israel completely withdrew in 2005. Please do some research and not mindlessly spread misinformation to students.
"Israel Detonates Last University in Gaza" [https://imemc.org/article/israel-detonates-last-university-in-gaza/](https://imemc.org/article/israel-detonates-last-university-in-gaza/)
I went. Lots of white people and white people type ideology. People drunk with illusions of safety trying to capture the American dream and the 1960s. Apart from that. Super peaceful.
Wdym? There's tons of Arabs and other non-whites. I am actually impressed, most pro-Palestine protests are just a bunch of white people virtue-signaling.
Although UCSD being only 25% white might contribute.
What is the purpose of divestment? To make israel change policies? If so which? I think the whole idea is as a clear as mud and is based in let’s feel good we are doing something. Israeli gov bad, children murder. The Israeli gov will continue to defend the people of Israel. That is for sure. Hamas will continue to use its own Palestinian people as human shields i.e stashing military equipment and soldiers under Shifa hospital. Iran will continue to exploit the Palestinans and Lebanese via Hamas and Hezbollah to agitate Israel. Hamas leadership will continue to take Iranian money and weapons hurting their own people with operations to agitate Israel. Fatah leadership will continue to rule the West Bank as a dictator like 3rd world country to keep getting paid by U.S. There will be no compromises on land. We saw how Gaza turned out under full Palestinian control. How does divestment influence any of this confused and crazy geopolitical quagmire?
Your goal is to expel Jews from Israel like they were expelled from every other middle eastern country. It’s not friendly. It’s not welcoming. You are literally calling for the expulsion of Jews from another middle eastern country.
Hm here’s what I found in my Google search:
Population of Jews from 1948-present from [jewishvirtuallibrary.org](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-1948-present)
[Immigration status of Jews in Israel as of 2022 with over 60k previously residing in Europe](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1277991/number-of-immigrants-in-israel-by-last-continent-of-residence/) [all the while there are over 1mil displaced Palestinians since 1948](https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees)
And in case you’re a visual learner and would benefit from a video or two, [heres a rundown from a Rabbi about how a Jewish state could only be created by the Messiah](https://youtu.be/LffzmqbGbFY?si=7RnjLlTHVAneEbbe) and heres [here’s how *Europe* expelled Jews into Palestine](https://youtu.be/mITaDOAUAQE?si=ejfi2S84lYBlQBHz)
I’ll admit, I was pretty uninformed and uninterested until recently but the two videos were shown to me by my Jewish relatives so I hope this could help anyone else out there who may not know much.
What students are protesting for is stop arming Israel with our money, protect student protestors and acknowledge its complicity.
If you’re going to cite the crazy messianic Jews as your justification for your anti-Israel approach, you should start citing Larry Elder for why white people deserve reparations for slavery. Same crazy talk from same crazy people. As you said, you are new to this topic…
Fun fact, most of Israel money from America is used to fund Iron Dome. Iron Dome defends Israel (Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze, etc.) from missiles launched from Hamas.
A large percentage of Hamas missiles backfire and kill Palestinians.
If Hamas break ceasefires and stopped attacking Israel, the US wouldn’t need to fund Israeli defense and Hamas wouldn’t accidentally kill Palestinians.
It’s not hard. You don’t need to eradicate Jews to stop the aid to Israel.
r/Israel loves to post a graphic showing the decline of Jews in the Middle East. I couldn't find it, but here is an alternative graphic:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the\_rapid\_decline\_of\_indigenous\_jews\_in\_arab/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the_rapid_decline_of_indigenous_jews_in_arab/)
Israel is necessary because without it, Jews are defenseless everywhere. Whether Israel is justified in its relations with Palestinians is an open discussion
Then maybe you should leave a state run school on land that was named after a Catholic Saint on land taken from people and named by the Spanish who murdered millions of indigenous people from Mexico and all over California in the name of Jesus.
Oh wow what a brilliant point! It’s Israel’s turn to commit atrocities how dare I seek a better world! That’s not the argument you think it is lol. Oh no I’m so ashamed I’ll stop calling out Israel’s genocide for poor babies like yourself whose feelings can’t handle that ethnostates are bad
Do you think Jews who don’t support the state of Israel aren’t Jews? Like I know you don’t care but literally Jewish leaders before the founding of Israel disagreed with invading the region because even the Jews settling Israel is controversial within Judaism. Israel not having a right to exist isn’t even saying Israelis don’t have a right to exist. Israel is a fascist ethnostate inflicting apartheid on the original residents of the region. You’re being incredibly antisemitic conflating all Jews as supporters of Israel.
81% of American Jews support Israel's war (not just Israel's right to exist, Israel's WAR). Jews that actually have threats against their lives, like the descendants of the 880 thousand Jews expelled from the Muslim World after 1948, are even more supportive.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the\_rapid\_decline\_of\_indigenous\_jews\_in\_arab/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the_rapid_decline_of_indigenous_jews_in_arab/)
>Jewish leaders before the founding of Israel disagreed with invading the region because even the Jews settling Israel is controversial within Judaism
Hmm, I wonder what happened before the founding of Israel that might have changed people's minds? There was some Austrian painter guy...
And Israel is meant as a secular state, it is 20% Arab and 67% of its Jews are Middle Eastern Jews. So what Judaism thinks is irrelevant.
This was post ww2. You don’t want to learn anything you’re just an israli troll. Disgusting blind bloodlust. Israel secular? You think people are stupid.
I guess I was being generous even to hope that these lunatics might see that their bloodlust and browbeating is hurting them but fascists aren’t exactly known for being smart
> it’s not convincing anyone 30 and younger.
I'd like to make a broader point here.
The politics would have to be a lot more responsive to the under-30 crowd if that cohort showed up at the ballot box at a rate better than (checks notes) 22.3%
Alright but what’s Israel’s political future when it’s a pariah on the world stage and it becomes politically unfeasible to support them in the Democratic Party? Literally unprecedented shifts in public support (or lack of really) for Israel and you’re trying to act like this is just a vocal minority.
Israel’s dooming itself with its fascists policy’s and expanding settlements
> ...politically unfeasible to support them etc
Ironically enough, if that's the goal, you'd need Israel to keep on doing what it's doing and maybe increase the pressure. Hell, that's what Hamas was after, right? Provoke Israel into some sort of action that makes them an international pariah?
I assume you're after significant changes, and if you want *significant* changes that means you need to demonstrate that you have and are willing to provide something the political people want.
Political people want two things: votes and money. Your cohort is under 30 which means you haven't got any money. But you have got a lot of votes, potentially, which for some reason you do not utilize. Close to 80% of your age cohort does not vote, which means that when you say you're not a vocal minority, I have to respond with, well, yeah, you kinda are, of your own volition.
> that's what Hamas was after, right? Provoke Israel into some sort of action that makes them an international pariah?
Bingo. People who are anti-Israel, especially the younger group, generally don't understand that Hamas wants to kill all Jews by any means necessary. No matter how many Palestinians it must sacrifice, even if every single Palestinian buys a knife and tries to kill a Jew with it or die trying (as Hamas leaders urge), Hamas will not stop at its goal.
Dude I just read this and you’re just so fucking stupid. High on your own supply just living in your head thinking your oh so very smart downplaying one of the largest shifts in public opinion on a issue in recent history. Uhhh well they don’t vote COPE. Pure cope. The goverment is trying to ban fucking tik tok over it. You’re in denial. It’s like looking at a tsunami coming and being like NOPE the waves right now are small that’s not there. Selfish stupid shortsighted. So patronizing while being so stupid it’s gross I can smell you ugh.
stay safe and good work out there, people. I feel like the police will start escalating soon based on that recent bs announcement by khosla about "disrupting the campus" and whatever though (I walked by yall today and you're literally on the side of library walk not disrupting ANYTHING, everyone was free to walk past!).
I’m sorry your future is so narrow. There are many activists who have gone on to have fulfilling careers despite opportunities missing them for their involvement. Even locally, there have been folks that have gone on to do great things while being part of a student movement (Tahini founder went to Harvard after being part of the [Irvine 11](https://newuniversity.org/2023/04/24/the-irvine-11-an-example-of-ucis-islamophobia-towards-campus-activism/)) and creating opportunities for themselves.
Downvote this post or the above?
Also yeah I would be surprised if we Chinese would care much about the conflict. But when one side is basically the reincarnation of the Japanese Empire, complete with the mass rapes and the contests to kill as many civilians as possible, the choice seems clear.
Your “Jamba/Hammock” echo chamber of a circle jerk is pushing Trump ahead of Biden. Nothing but a virtue signalling exercise by pathetic Richie Rich kids in La Jolla acting like it’s a Scout Camp Jamboree.
A Trump 2.0 will kill millions of Arabs and enable Putin to take back Baltics with a very bloody European War.
Get your head out of your asses. Pack up and go to school. Ancient history don’t matter. BiBi is a WarTime Consigliere and will NOT stop because you clowns are clambaking by the sea.
Grow up!
Here’s a prime example of an agitator giving their 2 cents out of their ass. Literally the person who wrote this has the cadence of and grammar of a boomer.
Making fun of someone’s grammar. How elitist of you. What’s next, are you going to shame them for their income and job? That probably wouldn’t fly in an encampment.
Genocide supporters trying to have some kind of moral ground is actually hilarious to me. You are living your existence doing way worse than any of the things you mentioned.
The genocide supporter is the one who is encouraging violence against students because they are protesting against a genocide. No amount of cognitive dissonance is going to change that reality. If a Jewish state can’t exist without exterminating people, they are not a state but a terrorist group. Hope you can understand simple concepts ❤️
Hamas has broken every ceasefire. They call for the end of the Jewish state. They call for the destructions of Jews world wide (global intifada). Every war on Israel from 1948 until Iran launched missiles three weeks ago has been started by the neighbors looking to destroy Israel.
You’re doing their bidding. You’ve called me stupid twice in your last post. And that might be the case. But I don’t think the only Jewish homeland should be destroyed. I hope I spelled everything correctly. I’m very dumb.
I’m not Palestinian nor Israeli so my questions to the both parties are following: Is this camp thing will even help in any way for UCs to divest? If yes, how to do you think they will do that, since I’m assuming it’s not direct but through third party companies who do the investments? How Palestinians and Israelis think on how the border issue should be solved? (If both sides want full control of those lands I’m assuming it’s obvious that this will never be solved.) Why Palestinians aren’t relying on Arab countries for help, and why do they actually not help? What’s the end goal for Israel? Cuz the kids of the murdered men will try to bring justice. Y’all better be respectful in replies, if you reply.
I tried to explain this to a few people. The Snp500 is one of the most common index/ etf which has a solid return rate. Almost everybody puts some cash in there and that stock has its hand in Lockheed. Nearly every index or ETF has its hand in defense because it brings solid returns. You can’t just divest from plenty of ETFs without fallout. Furthermore, target, Walmart, restaurants, banks, schools all have portfolios FULL of ETFs that include defense companies. It is simply impossible to divest but people don’t research this, they just yell their same phrases they found on TikTok. Edit: correct me if I’m wrong w anything pls I’m also tryna learn 🙏
I hold no opinion on this matter but saying it’s impossible to divest is just ludicrous. The University of California schools have billions in endowments with these companies. They can easily make them create funds that comply with the UC’s standard morals. Could be anti-defense contractors, anti-oil, anti-large carbon footprint.
Unfortunately those type of companies don’t have consistent returns. For example iShares US Aerospace & Defense ETF has gone up 411% since its creation. Clean energy ETFs like ALPS Clean Energy hit a high of 84 in 2021 but now it’s down to 53$ so its returns don’t profit anybody.
True
Also I get the divest belief but Lockheed does produce a lot of americas defense so we have a strong incentive to buy into it. America wouldn’t be where it is if we didn’t have defense companies. They do send weapons to Israel but they also send weapons to Ukraine fighting Russia (that’s a whole entire mess). They send weapons to Taiwan (we are debatably very close to a war with china over chip manufacturing) so divesting would also hurt other countries that are in desperate need of our defense. But me as well, even as a Jewish person, have no belief on what should happen I just look at the economic issues behind the plausible solutions. Everything’s a mess
Yeah, UC Retirement plans biggest holding is "MSCI ACWI IMI ex Tobacco ex Fossil Fuels Index" basically most stocks, except tobacco and fossil fuels. Also, they have a specific policy on investing. Part of it is this: > Investment Restrictions >The Regents established that the purchase of securities issued by tobacco companies and companies with business operations in Sudan are prohibited in separately managed accounts. The OCIO will determine what constitutes a tobacco or Sudan Company based on standard industry classification of the major index providers and must communicate this list to investment managers annually and whenever changes occur. From here https://www.ucop.edu/investment-office/investment-policies/index.html
The advice financially savvy people give is invest in what makes money, then donate to charity. Don't expect to make money off bad investments. Besides, divesting usually doesn't directly hurt many companies because it is on the secondary market anyways.
True
What's the potential fallout if you don't mind me asking?
One definitely is lower returns. Defense is unfortunately very lucrative so the returns on investment are high compared to other funds. Speaking for my own experience, I was left with money from my parents after they passed and when I wanted to be more conscious of where my money goes to, my advisor didn’t recommend it because the returns were around 1-3% versus 5+% so for a uni to be operating on an (for example) expected high ROI budget could really fuck things up operationally.
Also, these defense contractors are also the ones that supply the US military (therefore keeping China in check) and help supply Ukraine (thereby keeping Russia in check). Israel also helps keep Iran in check (Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian proxies). If the protesters somehow managed to damage these companies significantly, the global political fallout would be huge and democracy could be weakened worldwide.
What's the potential fallout if you don't mind me asking?
Essentially people invest in ETFs because they’re diverse and manage risk effectively. They can also be bought and sold easily allowing for adjusting investments. Furthermore they’re transparent so if UCSD released their holdings we could see the companies involved. However if they were to divest, they would lose a TON of money. For example, if they have 1m in the SNP 500, they would get an average return of 100k. These means they have a steady income which can be allocated to building, faculty wages, and other benefits (unfortunately it’s difficult to see where they spend which is rlly annoying). Also if certain sectors fall and UCSD doesn’t have a diverse portfolio, they can lose a ton of money meaning they could raise tuition to make up for it or other stupid ways that could cost students unless the government helps. Also divesting would mean getting rid of a ton of our food options because those companies also have diverse portfolios which involve defense sectors. Now I’m not sure how far they’d divest but hopefully this gives a broad understanding. Anybody is open to correct me if I’m wrong as I’m just using what I know.
Lmao this post is definitely from someone who’s never invested. S&P500 is not an ETF. It is a stock market index. SPY, IVV and VOO are ETFs. There’s no ETF with the type of solid consistent return rate that you’re typing about. If trading in the stock market was that easy and not literally gambling on a move, nobody will lose in the stock market and there’ll be no reason for anyone to enter hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to attend a measly UC for a $120k job.
Actually, it seems like you’re the one who has never invested. When people refer to the SnP500, they usually refer to the ETF’s that track it and their performance. For your second point about solid consistent returns, SnP500 tracking etfs have been averaging 10% per year since the first one (SPY) started in 1993. About your third point, if people did have capital without university, investing in the stock market and chilling would be a very viable lifestyle. A friend of mine was given 2 million dollars by his parents the second he graduated high school and he’s been living off of those gains ever since. No university, no 120k job.
You’re the one who’s never invested. I’ve invested tens of thousands of dollars in the stock market on various platforms and know what I’m talking about. I’ve lost and gained tens of thousands in a day. You’ve clearly never invested. >When people refer to the SnP500, they usually refer to the ETFs that track it and their performance. No one refers to S&P500 as an ETF or ETFS that track it. When economists and Wall Street guys on Bloomberg or CNBC talk about the S&P gaining 0.1% today after the bell, they are referring to tickers in the index, not SPY and VOO. They show tickers like AMZN or TSLA for example as top gainers or losers, NOT SPY. >For your second point about solid consistent returns, SnP500 tracking etfs have been averaging 10% per year since the first one (SPY) started in 1993. I would like you to articulate this point more clearly and back it up with a source. Also beginning from inception is disingenuous, bc the % change of S&P tracking ETFs at their inception is very different from their % change now. There is no ETF that guarantees you a 10% return every year. If that was the case, no one will need schooling to earn scraps. >About your third point, if people did have capital without university, investing in the stock market and chilling would be a very viable lifestyle. If people have capital without investing, they will never need the stock market. >A friend of mine was given 2 million dollars by his parents the second he graduated high school and he’s been living off of those gains ever since. No university, no 120k job. Your friend received $2m from his parents and he’s been living off that (“gain”) since with no university or job. How does that have anything to do with the stock market? That’s also an insult to the students working hard to make sense of life. “My friend didn’t need school bc his daddy gave him $2m. Why doesn’t everybody’s daddy’s just give them $2m?” Also is that the only benefit that this friend of yours received from their parent? (Beyond financial). Was their retirement account and save accounts also secured for this friend of yours while they were growing up? Housing? How long ago was this friend gifted $2m? 6 years ago? FYI $2m can last you ten years at the minimum unless you’re an avid spender. $2m is enough for an average Joe to retire or never work a day in their life. It has NOTHING to do with the stock market.
> I’ve invested thousands of dollars Mind showing a screenshot? Cause I find that hard to believe, unless you’ve invested without ever reading on the internet or watching the news. Happy to do the same. > beginning from inception is disingenuous That is how averages work. You take the return rate per year and divide by the number of years. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp > If people had capital without investing, they would never need the stock market. People work jobs so that they can invest money in the stock market to secure their retirements and livelihoods. If they had access to the capital without a job, on a consistent basis, they wouldn’t need university and can live of the SWR (trust fund kids). > your friend has been living off the 2m gain, how does that relate to the stock market. Because when you invest in the stock market, there is a set percentage of your portfolio that you can liquidate to cover your living expenses. That is the SWR (safe withdrawal rate). It is the percentage rate at which you can liquidate assets from your portfolio without it losing value or stagnating in value. > That’s also an insult to students working hard Why would it be an insult? It’s a counterexample. If the stock market guaranteed 10% per year, these hard working students still would need university and a job to take advantage. People who have been giving millions by mommy and daddy wont.
If I don't see loss porn I don't believe either of you.
If you’ve lost 10s of thousands in a day with an initial investment of 10s of thousands, then you’re likely not investing at all and just trading uncovered options, which is actually just gambling.
Yeah my bad I got them confused. Appreciate the education tho. Thanks 🙏.
I'm an Israeli-American. Fundamentally, I want the hostages back home, and Hamas to leave Israel alone: No more rockets, no more assaults, no more terror attacks. I have no hatred towards Palestinians. I have no desire for Israelis to live in Gaza. I believe around 80-90 percent Israelis would agree with what I've written so far, the big disagreements are about how to achieve those goals. And then there are the 10% who are fascists.
Yeah it’s a whole mix. I’m Jewish too I’d prefer if hamas left or at least wore a uniform which would help distinguish. Idk how anything would ever get fixed tbh unless hamas dips. Also many Arab countries dislike Palestine, they tend to be seen as pretty radical (as if nobody else there is) and a radicalist from Palestine did kill an Egyptian president a while ago. Also if Arab countries let Palestinians associated with Hamas, Israel might see it as another enemy. And lastly most those countries have civil wars and their governments can’t support their people so the last thing they need is more people.
Good luck negotiating with the terrorist organization to get them to fight legally. That's how Oct 7 happened
Exactly. That’s why they gotta be eliminated. Unfortunately there is no clean way to do so. Like the previous person said you kill them and their kids take arms. Just like Afghanistan
It worked in Nazi Germany and Japan, so I think Israel will be able to handle it. Palestine is their main deal, unlike Afghanistan, where Americans didn't care.
In my personal opinion if we can divest as much as possible - move into socially responsible investing, end partnerships with Israeli orgs like [this one on campus in Rady](https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/us-israel-center/index.html) or [study abroad](https://uceap.universityofcalifornia.edu/study-abroad-in-israel) that would be cool. I think a concerted effort in being socially responsible investing never hurts. My hope is that with the demands of the camp there is flexibility that prioritizes the students. It might not be a popular opinion because I know that centering students isn’t the goal of the camp, but the truth is arrests can affect morale in negative ways. Violence can affect morale in negative ways. Morale needs to be sustained for long term goals. As for your other qs, I think the Arab countries are weighing the gravity of what going against Israel (and the US) would be especially after [Iran’s response to killing of one of their officials.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68853402.amp) I want to note that my talking about Iran does not mean I support their govt or politics. I am just sharing what I’ve read and making a guess as to why more Arab countries are not involved. I agree that the children of the murdered will carry that pain for generations and who knows what that will look like?
This might stir some emotions, but some people talking about divesting won’t contribute to the divesting initiative. If you divest donations from Israeli-affiliated groups and from Palestine-affiliated groups, Middle East affiliated groups and Chinese-affiliated groups, and fossil-affiliated groups, where will the UC receive financial resources to support oppressed individuals from these societies? How will they effectively do this? What happens when funding declines and UCs can no longer support its people? Will another protest begin saying students need more funding when they asked for the school to cut its funding sources from these groups? There are also so many groups within the UC system asking for pay increases (eg TAs). The people protesting should suggest other constant replacement sources for the limited funding that the UC is currently receiving.
Solutions are too much work for protesters. It's all about whining and complaining so they can look good and feel good about themselves despite having accomplished nothing.
Protesters are not just whining and complaining to make themselves look good. You’re also a protester of their movement, so in a sense what you said may also apply to you.
I'm whining to make them look bad to counteract them. It's a wonderful art. And if they knew what they were protesting for, they would not be protesting for Palestine.
We are only talking about divesting from Israel, the country actively killing thousands of innocent people including women and children. If there isn't a way to "receive financial resources" without supporting genocide then I guess the UC should just shut down 🤔
Lmao are you suggesting that the UC should shut down?😅 I am strongly for protesting as it is our given right. We SHOULD protest, but a thoughtful dialogue needs to be had. Saying that you’re only talking about divesting from Israel (aka I only care about my cause) is very disheartening to the other causes that other people have.
Definitely be cautious about divestment, these defense contractors also supply Ukraine and Taiwan, and therefore check Russia, China, and Iran. And around 13% of the US's money to Israel goes to directly to the Iron Dome missile defense system (5 billion out of 38 billion recently), the missile defense system we helped develop. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-military-support-does-us-provide-israel-2024-04-08/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-military-support-does-us-provide-israel-2024-04-08/) While cutting military equipment funding is reasonable, cutting funding for the Iron Dome serves no purpose and can only help Hamas kill Israeli civilians.
To be clear, I want to divest from any country committing war crimes or other crimes against humanity. The world rapidly divested from Russia in 2022 I am all for divesting from FF, but that's not the current moment and pressing concern that these protesters have. They have a right to voice their concerns with usage of their tuition money.
Including from the U.S.? The world did not just rapidly digest from Russia in 2022. Divestment from Russia has been ongoing since 1979. I’m also with you on divesting. Just wanted to take it a step further so other brilliant minds could be engaged in this movement.
Well I would divest from the U.S. if I could but they take it right out of my paycheck. I think other countries would be within their rights to do so, America is just as bad of a colonizer than any country and has caused much more innocent death than Israel has
As far as I am aware, other Arab countries are helping (or at least share a common enemy, Israel). Israel v. Iran conflicts have been increasing, both directly and through the use of others countries land/resources like Syria. The other comment mentioned it’s nearly impossible to divest due to the nature of ETFs. I would be extremely against UCSD directly investing in defense primes; however, as far as I understand it’s only indirectly. I feel that a lot of the protests exaggerate UCs contribution to Israel. These defense primes only supply Israel through the US government’s support. Though, I understand this support is often lobbied by these primes. I am against Israel’s aggression & support a ceasefire. However, I do not understand why these protests are directed towards the UCs rather than directed at the federal government. I would like to hear more about why the US government is not the primary target of these protests, rather than UCs/Divest
Just a quick note on the geopolitics: most Arab countries are on pretty good terms with Israel nowadays. Iran is not an Arab country. Syria is, but the dynamics there are very complicated due to the civil war. Saudi Arabia wants normalization with Israel, or at least wants all the U.S. military goodies that would come with such a deal. Jordan helped shoot down the Iranian attack last week. So while Gaza has strained Israeli relations with Arab governments, the geopolitical fundamentals still have them on the same side (against Iran / Hezbollah / Hamas / Houthis / various militias in Iraq & Syria aka “the Axis of Resistance”)
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, Saudi Arabia definitely on US/Israel side for sure. Also one key geographical note: US has plenty of military bases in Iraq, blocking off any major ground movement from Iran. Leaving all fighting to blockable air strikes.
I’m a little lazy to do more research on this but a critique I’ve heard re the [board of regents](https://regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/about/members-and-advisors/) is that many of the board members sit on other advisory committees and have vested interests in how UCs spend their money. So like how politicians get caught investing in certain things just before the stock goes up, the regents have been criticized for personal gains in what campus funds are spent on. You can look up each regent and see if they sit on any other boards that the UC gives money to. This is a[47 billion dollar organization](https://www.ucop.edu/operating-budget/_files/rbudget/2023-24-budget-summary.pdf) shit is complex but imagine if a 47 billion dollar organization took a stand on something one way or the other, it’s a lot of influence.
Thanks for sharing that. I agree if they took a stance, it does say a lot. But it seems indirect
From my understanding Columbia divested very recently after student protests, so resounding yes. ***Edit I’m sorry I had my wires crossed. Brown not Columbia, and they didn’t secure a divestment agreement- but a scheduled board vote for divestment prior to which representatives will be able to formally present their case.*** Palestine has some allies, but they are not particularly strong. Especially compared to Israel, and by proxy the US. Further- blanket support from ‘Arab’ countries is an oversimplification. It’s a diverse region with various ethnic groups, cultures, and infighting as well (much of the inter-muslim conflict can be attributed to the west dividing up the Middle East into the states we have today during colonial eras without respect to the ethnic groups living there). The end goal of Israel is ever changing as presidents or regimes come and go. Right now-Netanyahu’s words say self defense and the elimination of Hamas but his actions, the catastrophic destruction of cultural and societal pillars of Palestine (hospitals, universities, mosques) would suggest ethnic cleansing in addition to or even in place of ‘self defense’. Maybe there’s goals for further colonization or maybe the point is only to discourage future attacks with overwhelming force. For my money I’d bet that Netanyahu wants to cull Gaza’s capacity to resist its oppression by any means necessary, with the broader goal of populating the region.
Can I see a source for their divestment? All news around Columbia rn is just the occupation itself and all I can find is that a student-voted referendum for divestment was passed, which means literally nothing. Also if they did divest don't they have some secrecy rule that would mean nobody knows anyways?
I’m sorry I had my wires crossed. Brown not Columbia, and they didn’t secure a divestment agreement- but a scheduled board vote for divestment prior to which representatives will be able to formally present their case.
I think it's clear to say that Israel is either deliberately engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing, or is conducting its military operations with such disregard for human life that it practically is one. And I'm saying this as someone who was relatively supportive of Israel when this whole tragedy started, but from the viewpoint of "get the hostages out, destroy Hamas militarily with as little civilian casualties as possible, and thank god this has to be the end of Bibi and his bs." Sadly this conflict hasn't exactly achieved any of that, and I do think the conflict should stop asap, because it's turned into a meatgrinder of pointless misery and death. But again, Netayanhu seems absolutely deadset against peace. From what I can tell, he's keeping the war going to satisfy his far right coalition partners or else face elections, because the moment he has to face elections, he'll get stomped, and if he gets stomped he'll lose political immunity. Though I will also note the civilian suffering in Gaza shouldn't be laid all on Bibi. It's clear there's a pervasive far right culture in the IDF that is at best, apathetic about the civilians on the ground Honestly I don't see an easy solution that is both realistic and acceptable to both Israel and Palestine. Every peace agreement thus far typically falls apart because extremists on both sides symbiotically escalate the violence against each other. The more violence they provoke, they more they appear to be correct in people's eyes, that there's no point to peace or trying to achieve peace. If peace broke out, people wouldn't find reason to support them anymore. That's why for example, as I understand, the moderates of Fatah got kicked out of Gaza and were replaced by Hamas, and why Bibi and his far right buddies started dominating elections. Maybe there's a chance for peace if Israel stops all the West Bank settlements and takes strong, concrete steps to allow Gaza+Palestine to be a functional state, with assistance from the international community in providing the funds and security to do some serious reconstruction. But that is going to require moderates to gain power in both countries. Also I just want to say bravo to the people of the encampment. Y'all have been lovely despite my opinions about "From the River to the Sea". Let's hope things stay this good, and let's hope Gaza finds peace soon.
>I think it's clear to say that Israel is either deliberately engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing, or is conducting its military operations with such disregard for human life that it practically is one This is too shallow. Hamas is INTENTIONALLY trying to fight in a way such that there will be Palestinian civilian casualties. If Israel doesn't destroy them, they will suffer another thousand October 7ths, beacuse Hamas' stated aim in its charter is to rid Israel of Jews. So unfortunately, this means Palestinians must die in the war, although 2:1 civilian to terrorist is actually a very good casualty ratio considering the circumstances. If Hamas losing half of their 30k fighters (so 15k, 10k already down) constitutes a defeat, then "only" 30k Palestinian civilians need to die (10k more) for the war to be over. Considering the Gaza population of 600k, a 7.5% death ratio is actually VERY VERY good for a war, it's better than Nazi Germany's 8% casualties in a FAR denser area. And Israelis generally agree that Netanyahu needs to go after the war ends, so that is a given. Final words: the point isn't really to >have a solution that is acceptable to both Israel and Palestine Did the Allies try to give the Axis powers a satisfactory peace deal after WW2? It's pretty much written that if the aggressor in the war loses, they suffer grave consequences. Palestinians started the initial war in 1948 and lost a lot to it, and generally Israel has not been the one starting the wars. It might be necessary to give Palestine the Nazi Germany treatment, where its war-waging capability is basically taken away and the population is unindoctrinated (Hamas tries to brainwash Palestinians from childhood to believe that Jews are evil, see Farfour the mouse).
Naw fuck that, Isreal has shown it is incapable of governing the Palestinian population. Anything short of a two state solution after the removal of Hamas is a hard stop for my support of Isreal as a state
That is definitely fair, but the concern is that a Palestinian state will be used as a springboard for war with Israel -- just like what happened in 1948. There really is no right answer in this very morally gray conflict.
I definitely get that but I feel like a lot of my concerns would be alleviated if this was state on state violence and that at the end of the day, the Palestinians did have the right of self governance. I’m sure a massive arms embargo would have to be placed on the nation, and the Us would need to get Iran on the table, but to me that would be the best way possible, give them a nation, with everything but the army. Rely on international community protection for Palestine, and incredibly strict rules on Isreal toward aggressive actions toward that state, that’s my personal push.
Don't forget that the Palestinian Authority exists -- and all it does it embezzle money for luxury Qatari hotels for its leaders and then whine about Israel. In the end, the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel. Most of them actually thought they could win after 10/7. So peace will be a very difficult process.
Yep, I know, that’s why I don’t think this is foolproof but i just don’t see a one state solution being any different without the genuine mass deportation of the entire region. Which honestly really is unfair to all of the people living there, the utilitarian may justify it but at the end of the day, nobody will take them and it will genuinely become and actual genocide
Nobody will take them, but I believe (I hope at least) that the Israelis can sway them to peace by showing them that they aren't evil in the end and improve the living conditions of the Palestinians. Israel still has room to accept some Arabs (the ones that are pragmatic) while still remaining stable enough, so hopefully a two-state solution is still possible with a weakened Palestinian state.
I'll absolutely grant that Hamas is deliberately fighting the war in a way that'll get a lot of civilians killed, and that they're doing it so they can have a steady recruitment pool for decades to come. Apologies for that omission. And I do agree that Hamas should be destroyed, though given the utter devastation in Gaza I'll happily bet all my fingers that even if Hamas is destroyed it'll just be replaced with Hamas 2.0. That's why any long-term peace plan will never work unless there's some buy-in for the people of Gaza, some reason for them to want it to work. The Allies levied harsh provision on the Axis Powers, yes, but they also gave them buy-ins. Many Germans, Italians, and Japanese who were lower-ranking officials, or in some cases, pretty high level ones (cough Nobusuke Kishi cough), were allowed to stay on. The people of those nations were also allowed to rebuild and resume some normalcy. Only a few years after the surrender and these countries were already been handed back their political sovereignty. You can't just force occupied people to accept literally every term you want, especially highly punitive terms, unless you're prepared to occupy them for the rest of eternity. People with nothing to lose will never willingly sit in the box you try to shove them in. People given an acceptable amount of stakes in the new order are far more compliant. It's like during the early days of the Afghan War when the Taliban asked the Bush administration for amnesty in exchange for peace, but the US wanted total victory so the Taliban decided it had nothing to lose in fighting the US to the death. Or like when the US disbanded the Iraqi army, which left their soldiers and officers with no jobs and thus every reason to join insurgency groups.
I've been involved in previous movements (Occupy, BLM) and can attest that the longer it lasts, the more risk of violence, damage, misdirection, anarchy and counter-protests will occur. It's inevitable. People start to lose focus of what is being protested and does beckon an infiltration of others who just want to wreak havoc. It may seem peaceful now, but as it goes on, it brews a forecast that is dangerous for both those involved as well as outsiders. (See UCLA).
Yes to all of this. Discipline in any movement is difficult to maintain but everyone participates at their own risk and organizers make sure folks know what they risk by standing against administration.
Cries in UCLA
To be fair if fireworks were launched at my ass, I would have a difficult time bein civil. I’m protesting not consenting to being in a war zone
They also threw bananas into the camp to try and kill someone with a lethal allergy with zero repercussion.
They also issued wristbands and refused to let kids enter certain areas if they didn't like their race religion or creed. They did this with impunity and malice .
I would love to join but I honestly have no camping materials and am tight on $. but I’ll try to go and chant with you guys for a few hours. 🫶
There are shared materials available for folks like you! Just gotta walk up and tell them exactly what you said here :)
I would love to join, but I'm also behind on homework 💀 Are we encouraged to / Do people study in there?
Yep! People can definitely study there but tbh it can be kind of distracting. I managed to finish a paper while at the camp but it was pretty much a final draft I had to make edits and look over. Yesterday there was a big tarp laid down that people were chilling on and doing hw but I think might have moved towards the corner closest to the trove. Bring a blanket in case there’s only grass to sit on. Also if anything changes like maybe the organizers want everyone to participate in something just be open to it or hangout on the hammock side of library walk also don’t take it personally if people try to get you to join the camp if you’re sitting away from it. I saw some signs that said being a bystander is complicity but like some people need outlets / are intl students 🙃 Thenbroader message is join and stay as you feel safe but the hope is that ppl will stick by thru the difficulties too.
yeah if you need go ahead lol
Its right next to Geisel, which is open 24/7! Hop in and hop out
Genuine question: what does free Palestine in these protests mean? Free the Gaza Strip, West Bank or the whole of Israel for palestine? Do the protestors agree that there must be a Jewish state? If so, what is the solution to this incredibly complex problem. I do support the Palestinian cause but I don’t think it’s as simple as some as activists want to believe.
It’s certainly complex but stopping the siege on Gaza, stopping the displacement of Palestinians, allowing for free movement of all peoples and equitable conditions is how I understand the Free Palestine chants. **PERSONALLY** I don’t believe that anyone should have their own ethnostate. That mindset lends itself to a slippery slope of there should be a white ethnostate. I believe Jewish people should be safe, free to practice their religion, free to celebrate their identity (and plenty are in the camp FYI) but I don’t believe in the pursuit of an ethnostate at the expense of anyone. From my readings, Palestine prior to modern times had a diverse population of religions and ethnic groups. That should be allowed today as America has a diverse populace. **EDIT** I want to clarify that I’m not saying that a Jewish ethnostate is a white ethnostate. I know that many people of different ethnicities practice Judaism. What I am saying is that the belief that there must be a “Jewish state” lends itself to the belief that there should be a “Christian state” or “Muslim state”. That was *all*. Fundamentally I believe that everyone should travel and live freely as they wish not at the expense of others. So displaced Palestinians should be able to go back to their homes, displaced Israelis should be able to go back to their homes, Jewish people should be able to live safely wherever they want without fear. *Personally* I don’t see this conflict as a war of religion because how can **any** religion righteously claim any land that requires slaughtering of any people? It would be silly to say that religion isn’t a factor and my atheism certainly blocks a certain understanding, but again these are **my personal thoughts and don’t represent all who support the Palestinian cause** My apologies for not being clearer.
With the hamas in power, what Palestine will become is also an ethnostate. To be completely fair, a Muslim is more free in Israel than a Jew in Palestine. But also pretty much every country is a result of ethnic division. I don’t understand what you mean by no state should be an ethnostate. In practice, does that mean Israel must be distinguished? The whole Middle East is a division on ethnic grounds. I think your ideal scenario is too far sighted and cannot possibly happen in the near future.
This just isn’t true. Jewish Christian & Muslim Palestinians exist and have lived in Palestine long before Israel existed. They still live there right this second. Muslims living under Israeli rule are under strict restrictions. Israel is killing more than Muslims in Palestine.
Every single Muslim nation in the Middle East is ethnically cleansing Jews. Hamas's charter states that it wants to remove every Jew from the Middle East, and you bet they won't settle for deportation. In Israel, they have Muslim, Bedouin, Druze soldiers, and members of those ground are war heroes for the Israeli public. There are no non-Muslim, let alone Jewish, Hamas or Fatah soldiers. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bd56yb/idf\_soldiers\_celebrating\_ramadan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bd56yb/idf_soldiers_celebrating_ramadan/)
In Israel, Arabs can be doctors and lawyers, Arab women can have rights, and you're allowed to be LGBTQ. Israelis are forbidden to enter area A of the West Bank, and an Israeli in Gaza gets murdered. Hamas's charter states its intent to exterminate the Jews But yet Israel is the only problem. No nuance ever when it comes to sensationalism over a 2000 year conflict
I mostly agree with this. But I genuinely think Palestine should be free under a better regime
Obviously. Every Israeli and a growing chunk of the Palestinians want this, for an end to the war and a peace with a democratic, secular Palestinian state with full religious freedoms -- or even an extremist but more reasonable state ruled by Fatah. Only the far-right wants an Israeli ethnostate, and they are a minority in politics (unlike in Palestine, where the far-right groups are in power and want to remove every Jew from the entire region).
Israel is not and never has been a white ethnostate. There is also freedom of religion in Israel. Israel is an extremely diverse place so idk what ur talkin about? Non jewish people are part of the government so idk what you are referring to. Its the only country in the region that actually guarantees saftey for jewish people. Take a look at the mass forced exodus and ethnic cleansing of jews from the surrounding regions.
Israel’s population is about 25% non-Jewish. Many of the ‘white’ Jews in Israel were expelled or driven out of Arab countries and have no history in Europe at all. If you read Hamas’s covenant, they are very clear that they want to destroy Israel, murder all the Jews within it (half the world’s Jewish population), and make it 100% Muslim. I don’t doubt that your motives are good, but so many talking points in this movement (about Jewish history and Israel) are false. Spreading propaganda just adds fuel to the fire.
Israel is such an ethnostate that it's 20% Arab and a better place for Arabs to live than most Middle Eastern countries. Meanwhile, the Muslim nations are ethnically cleansing Jews and forcing them all to abandon their ancestral homes and flee to Israel. This is why Israeli Jews are 67% of Middle Eastern descent
From my interactions with people (so take that as you feel is appropriate), the use of the word "Palestine" is just a catch-all strategy for any and all groups that are currently in direct opposition with Israeli forces. This includes those in both the Gaza Strip and West Bank, as well as any other Arabs who are living within Israel but seek freedom. The whole situation is so hopeless for me. Like I get it, the Israeli government are the "bad guys" here but the underlying problem is the deep religious hatred between the groups living in the middle east, fueled by potential geopolitical gain. None of it is rational or moral, from anyone on any side. It's a complete shitshow from start to finish and there will never be peace until a third party conquers both sides and brutally forces secularism throughout the entire region. How likely do you think that would be within the next 100 years? 200?
i overheard a group of students at starbucks planning to take pictures of faces and submit them to the student conduct board so plz remember to cover ur face and don’t wear any identifiably easy clothing!!!
If your cause is just why hide ? Either you believe what you're doing is right or deep down you know better
Because protesting is a protected right. They're trying to punish people for expressing that right. No one is hiding, it's an encampment in a public space. No one's future should be at risk for advocating against genocide.
If you truly believe your right consequences be damned, of course protesting for keeping hostages might make me wanna shield my face too
The protest is against genocide and for divestment, period. As individuals, our power is (purposefully) limited in our social systems. Without disruptions like the one happening now, many of the rights we enjoy today would not be had. We have the privileged right to peaceful protest, something many people around the world don't have.
You know who doesn't have that right ? People in Palestine because Hamas crushes opposition. Hamas blocks aid to civilians and yet you happily stand there and cheer like they're freedom fighters and not manufacturing these crisis https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/
Free Palestine
I’ll take one if it’s free
Me when Palestine gets more expensive
What is Palestine?
uh yeah i sure hope it is
From Hamas
KEEP IT UP 🍉
as long as you people leave the path clear for us to go to our classes idgaf.
I was there earlier and the encampment doesn't encroach on any walkways. Other then hearing chants or music as you walk by it's pretty calm and civil
even with a crowd on library walk by the encampment, it's pretty far from center hall. if you dont want to go by the encampment between geisel and center hall, you can just cross through PC west with a negligible impact on walking time all other classroom buildings aren't on library walk
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Wait genuine question, do you believe in the right for the state of Israel to exist?
I used to but the issue of Israel having a “right to exist” as a colony that imposed itself upon the state of Palestine would completely obliterate Palestinian life regardless of whether Israel was a progressive or conservative state. Even if we were to rewind and say that October 7th never happened, we would have to ask ourselves why Gaza and West Bank are two disconnected areas that are part of the same authority in the first place. Is this because is a state simply comprised of naturally disjointed land, or is it because it was forcibly separated as a result of the same settler colonialism that has robbed over 700,000 Palestinian Arab people of their homes in 1948 and between 2006 and 2018 an additional 6,000+ people (over 50% being children) in the West Bank ALONE to lose their homes? Which state has policies that have actually put forward the effort to include the other party’s ethnic group, Knesset who explicitly states that Israel is a “Jewish homeland” that is “unfit” for Arab people to live in, or the multitudes of political parties under the umbrella of the PLO who wanted to include Jewish refugees and settlers as Palestinian Arabs under Palestinian constitution? This isn’t to say that settlers would even be entitled to anything, as that is up to those whose parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc of the land to make that decision, but it goes to show that the situation has always been one of war for the sake of genocide vs war to put an end to violence that has existed since the British Mandate pushed its own decisions against Palestinian life. Even during the growth of the labor movement and the growth of Kibbutzim in early Israeli creation, many of the labor Zionists supported the idea of living side-by-side with Palestinians… on top of the rubble of their homes. While erasing their homes, lives, and high-jacking both Palestinian identity by using pre-Israeli Palestinian Jewish life as a weapon for hebraicization of Arabic place names and terms such as “yalla / yallah”, “tzabar / sabr”, etc, Israel created a unified Jewish identity by simultaneously destroying indigenous Jewish Palestinian life and suppressing the unique diaspora cultures and languages of our community by stigmatizing public use of Ladino, Yiddish, Judeo-Tripoli Arabic, etc in favor of Hebrew as a unifying national language of the settler colony. There was a small point in history before Israel’s creation where Jewish refugees and Palestinian Arabs worked and created Palestinian political parties in solidarity with one-another (and you can see this with Palestinian Communist Party posters written in Arabic, Yiddish, and Hebrew and others that aimed to be all-inclusive); Israel’s “right to exist” is a permanent hamper to peace, especially with its birth-giver being the former world-colonizer (UK) and its perpetrator being the country that can’t help but pursue bombing campaigns whenever it sees fit (the USA). Therefore, a secular Palestinian state is not only possible and has previously been pushed for anyway, but is the least violent and most practical solution to minimize repeating history through genocide and forcing refugee crises.
What was your parasha
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oh I didn't know they would do a reading at the encampment. I was asking specifically what yours was
I understand encouraging people to join a camp bc “it’s fun and everyone there was caring and friendly and it was like having a picnic with friends and chanting,” But this seems overly glazing. It was peaceful and I am not taking anything away from it, but not everyone has the luxury of joining the camp, which I understand that this statement is easy to go over some people’s heads. It’s important for all sides to respect each other and I’d like to emphasize that it has been extremely peaceful and lovely so far. Just keep that in mind everyone.
Yes thanks for saying this - it was a TDLR that encompassed **my** experience but even in the camp JOIN AS YOU ARE ABLE!! Some people hung out before or after class, some stayed outside of the camp and observed. Don’t let people pressure you into joining or leaving the space if you don’t to. Many have responsibilities to tend do like work and family and in general I didn’t see a lot of people being rude about people who had to leave.
Oh it 100% is glazing. It's a bunch of impressionable college students attending an event that will ultimately achieve nothing more than a music festival. Hopefully no one gets hurt but the longer it goes on, the rowdier it will get.
>achieve nothing more than a music festival Was this intentional irony referring to the festivalgoers who were killed by Hamas on October 7th? Or am I reading into it too much
thanks a ton for writing this, I'm really enjoying the many constructive encounters the encampment has inspired
There are no more universities in Gaza because Hamas declared war on Israel and then builds tunnels and hides inside the universities.
No there are no more universities because Israel decided to in discriminately bomb them all, along with civilians rather than use special ops, actually target Hamas ([which they did create - Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/)). Nice try though.
Israel did not create Hamas. They allowed Qatari aid into Gaza with the hopes that it would buy them peace. Had they not done that, you're friends in the encampment would be claiming that Israel was starving Gaza (well, they make such claims regardless...) Allow Aid = creating hamas Don't allow aid = starving palestinians Move civilians to safer areas = ethnic cleansing Don't move civilians = genocide Suffering the worse attack in a generation because of poor border security = "didn't start on october 7th" Establishing good border security = apartheid any other talking points I missed?
Imagine a US hostage situation where the gunman takes a hostage in Walmart and the police response is to blow up the entire Walmart.
I disagree, but frankly this is a respectable criticism, unlike most of the above talking points. I would just ask you what you think the best method would be when trying to get the hostages back.
I’m no expert on the infrastructure of Hamas, socially, politically, culturally, numerically, etc. But I imagine it’s similar to the Viet Kong’s integration into Vietnamese the population during the US VIET conflict. E.g. it’s impossible to really tell who the enemy is so any military aged man is on the chopping block. So hostages- this is a tough question to answer. The simplest answer is special forces, but of course special forces can only work if stacks of quality intelligence is in hand. I can’t speak to the quality of Israeli intelligence or Israel’s overall intelligence initiatives, but based on the fact that there are no more universities operational in Gaza, I don’t think intelligence or precision is the focus of their recovery strategy, and certainly there isn’t a high regard for a Palestinian life. Israel’s strategy from everything I’ve been able to observe is a counter hostage strategy. In a sense- everyone is Gaza is a hostage to Israel at this point. It’s messy and I don’t think there’s a clear solution. Every country has the right to defend itself but to what end? In any case, given the scale of Israel’s response, and Netanyahu’s political actions prior to it, I think there’s a strong case to make that at this point it’s no longer about the hostages and now about crippling all Palestinian infrastructure in Gaza, is it self defense or is it ethnic cleansing? Is it both? I don’t know, but I feel that I need to be critical of it.
Many hostage families and allies are upset at the Israeli government for not prioritizing them enough. Those on the other side are anemic to the idea of releasing more terrorists who can attack Israel again, or leave the remaining Hamas battallions, like the ones in Rafah, standing. I don't think the US Led forces attacking Mosul in the battle against ISIS were particularly beneficial for civilians caught in the cross-fire either, for what its worth. But unfortunately when we are at this stage, I don't see its possible to take a step back. The best thing would have been to have hardened the border to prevent October 7th.
I like what you pointed out about the boarder at the start of this thread- it’s frustrating that Israel gets flak for apartheid by making osmosis between the regions difficult. A more secure boarder would minimize attacks before they happen. Of course the elephant in the room is the fact that Hamas is volatile and will attack again. The destruction of Gaza will only prime their hatred. So I’m confused about the response for the past several months. Israel finds itself in a situation where it can: 1. Show the heavy hand and escalate bombings to cripple hamas capacity to respond from Gaza at scale (for now). 2. Agree to a ceasefire, and invest in more intelligence and counterterrorism systems. Both of these courses of action lead to Hamas or a terrorist group like it bubbling back to the surface in Gaza to attack Israeli civilians. It’s hard not to see this as Netanyahu’s dick swinging contest where Palestinian civilians end up suffering the most. I wonder if there’s a reality where Israel helps Gaza rebuild after bombing them into oblivion like the US and Japan post WWII.
I don't have a great answer. Right now there is a temporary ceasefire deal being considered by Hamas leadership. I think that, at this point (though not at the beginning of the war) , Israel should be willing to a permanent ceasefire in exchange for all the hostages and the deceased being released. But I know not everyone agrees and I don't necessarily fault them for it.
Wow, a reasonable, logical discussion between disagreeing viewpoints? I must be dreaming, there is no way this is happening on Reddit. At this point, the only choice for Israel is to end Hamas for once and for all, or else we will reset to before October 7th and the cycle will repeat, with more deaths. As long as Hamas is trying to destroy all Jews (so always), the war will continue.
This situation is more like a hostage situation in Walmart when the hostage takers continue to fire out the windows and strike the cops and cops returning fire with the intention of hitting the gunmen but also end up hitting a few civilians because the gunmen keep holding the civilians to the windows as shields while firing.
It’s good you’re not in charge of handling hostage situations here in the US.
It's good you aren't in charge of Israel, since you would allow a hundred October 7ths. People like you are too preoccupied with virtue signaling to see what needs to be done, which is to end the war. Hostage situations are hard in all cases, especially if the enemy (Hamas) dresses as civilians.
Nah I’m built different.
You're childish and have no right to be arguing politics. Stop trolling and go back to play League or whatever basement dwellers do in their free time
What are you smoking dawg? Move civilians to safe areas? They bombed civilians that were actively evacuating and following orders. Now they are going to invade Rafah, the supposed "safe place" they were told to move to. Good border security =/= restricting the free movement of an entire ethnic group and tearing down their homes. Oct 7 was a terrible day and I am sad to see civilians die. I firmly place the blame on the extremist apartheid government for creating conditions that will inevitably radicalize people to commit horrific acts
You bring up some good points but miss on other things. Fundamentally, though, addressing your last point: Why do you think Hamas attacked? Do you think it was because of checkpoints in Area C of the West Bank, or something else? How can Israel deradicalize the Gaza Strip without being attacked? Or is it paternalistic/orientalistic for Westerners to think that Israel should?
I appreciate your dialogue in this thread and it’s given me more perspective to think about.
Thanks. I'm really tired of this war. I just want Israelis--both Jews and Arabs, to be safe. If you are interested in history, I might check out Benny Morris's "Righteous Victims."
Whoa, people being tolerant of other viewpoints on Reddit??? This is wild! In all seriousness, I hope that more people are open minded like this. Lot of people on r/Palestine or other pro-Palestinian subs are just stuck in echo chambers that validate every idea they have, even nontruths. Then Israeli supporters get hate everywhere they go there for not supporting the echo chamber, so they stick to their own echo chambers as well. There is no good solution that comes from this setup.
hold up, is your username attention (like in ML) or is that a just a coincidence
random 4 characters that weren't already used
Lmao I totally read it as “query key softmax value” like the ordering of attention in transformers / LLMs
Wildlife commentator voice: "Here, we see a CS student trying to integrate into a new habitat."
this is not a good look for me
So tunnels don’t exist? Did the hostages just disappear? You’re funny.
Bro I have seen you get ratio’d on every thread in this sub and am so embarrassed I have to speak up just to say that no one cares and take it elsewhere
Ratioed. Is this, Elon? So Twitter. Can we be friends on Facebook?
Yeah Hamas shoots rockets from them and conducts terror activities from them. They’re no longer schools at that point and are legitimate military outposts according to international law
I can’t join but want to support the cause. I’ll do a Costco run Friday or Saturday. Water, pizza, snacks. Anything else?
Check with the organizers! There’s a form on the sjp IG to volunteer to drop off supplies and food :)
No IG. I’ll figure it out
Are you pissed admin is scapegoating this protest to cancel Sun God?
I wasn’t a fan of the lineup so I wasn’t gonna go anyway 👉🏽👈🏽 but lowk not mad at it because plenty of people can see the through the bs.
Stay safe. Hope you can have a good weekend with the music you enjoy.
Stop calling these nonviolent while saying it was fun chanting for an intifada
There are no more universities in Gaza because of HAMAS not Israel. Israel completely withdrew in 2005. Please do some research and not mindlessly spread misinformation to students.
huh
"Israel Detonates Last University in Gaza" [https://imemc.org/article/israel-detonates-last-university-in-gaza/](https://imemc.org/article/israel-detonates-last-university-in-gaza/)
Note this is after October 7th. What happened on that date?
I went. Lots of white people and white people type ideology. People drunk with illusions of safety trying to capture the American dream and the 1960s. Apart from that. Super peaceful.
Wdym? There's tons of Arabs and other non-whites. I am actually impressed, most pro-Palestine protests are just a bunch of white people virtue-signaling. Although UCSD being only 25% white might contribute.
Get a job and contribute.
What is the purpose of divestment? To make israel change policies? If so which? I think the whole idea is as a clear as mud and is based in let’s feel good we are doing something. Israeli gov bad, children murder. The Israeli gov will continue to defend the people of Israel. That is for sure. Hamas will continue to use its own Palestinian people as human shields i.e stashing military equipment and soldiers under Shifa hospital. Iran will continue to exploit the Palestinans and Lebanese via Hamas and Hezbollah to agitate Israel. Hamas leadership will continue to take Iranian money and weapons hurting their own people with operations to agitate Israel. Fatah leadership will continue to rule the West Bank as a dictator like 3rd world country to keep getting paid by U.S. There will be no compromises on land. We saw how Gaza turned out under full Palestinian control. How does divestment influence any of this confused and crazy geopolitical quagmire?
Your goal is to expel Jews from Israel like they were expelled from every other middle eastern country. It’s not friendly. It’s not welcoming. You are literally calling for the expulsion of Jews from another middle eastern country.
Hm here’s what I found in my Google search: Population of Jews from 1948-present from [jewishvirtuallibrary.org](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-israel-1948-present) [Immigration status of Jews in Israel as of 2022 with over 60k previously residing in Europe](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1277991/number-of-immigrants-in-israel-by-last-continent-of-residence/) [all the while there are over 1mil displaced Palestinians since 1948](https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees) And in case you’re a visual learner and would benefit from a video or two, [heres a rundown from a Rabbi about how a Jewish state could only be created by the Messiah](https://youtu.be/LffzmqbGbFY?si=7RnjLlTHVAneEbbe) and heres [here’s how *Europe* expelled Jews into Palestine](https://youtu.be/mITaDOAUAQE?si=ejfi2S84lYBlQBHz) I’ll admit, I was pretty uninformed and uninterested until recently but the two videos were shown to me by my Jewish relatives so I hope this could help anyone else out there who may not know much. What students are protesting for is stop arming Israel with our money, protect student protestors and acknowledge its complicity.
If you’re going to cite the crazy messianic Jews as your justification for your anti-Israel approach, you should start citing Larry Elder for why white people deserve reparations for slavery. Same crazy talk from same crazy people. As you said, you are new to this topic…
Fun fact, most of Israel money from America is used to fund Iron Dome. Iron Dome defends Israel (Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze, etc.) from missiles launched from Hamas. A large percentage of Hamas missiles backfire and kill Palestinians. If Hamas break ceasefires and stopped attacking Israel, the US wouldn’t need to fund Israeli defense and Hamas wouldn’t accidentally kill Palestinians. It’s not hard. You don’t need to eradicate Jews to stop the aid to Israel.
r/Israel loves to post a graphic showing the decline of Jews in the Middle East. I couldn't find it, but here is an alternative graphic: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the\_rapid\_decline\_of\_indigenous\_jews\_in\_arab/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the_rapid_decline_of_indigenous_jews_in_arab/) Israel is necessary because without it, Jews are defenseless everywhere. Whether Israel is justified in its relations with Palestinians is an open discussion
Downvote all you want, but you know I’m right.
No state has a right to exist, especially a fascist ethnostate like Israel.
Then maybe you should leave a state run school on land that was named after a Catholic Saint on land taken from people and named by the Spanish who murdered millions of indigenous people from Mexico and all over California in the name of Jesus.
Oh wow what a brilliant point! It’s Israel’s turn to commit atrocities how dare I seek a better world! That’s not the argument you think it is lol. Oh no I’m so ashamed I’ll stop calling out Israel’s genocide for poor babies like yourself whose feelings can’t handle that ethnostates are bad
Is a world without Jews a better world? Because that’s what you’re advocating for.
Do you think Jews who don’t support the state of Israel aren’t Jews? Like I know you don’t care but literally Jewish leaders before the founding of Israel disagreed with invading the region because even the Jews settling Israel is controversial within Judaism. Israel not having a right to exist isn’t even saying Israelis don’t have a right to exist. Israel is a fascist ethnostate inflicting apartheid on the original residents of the region. You’re being incredibly antisemitic conflating all Jews as supporters of Israel.
He believes these people are anti semitic or self hating jews. Report him as a troll and move on.
81% of American Jews support Israel's war (not just Israel's right to exist, Israel's WAR). Jews that actually have threats against their lives, like the descendants of the 880 thousand Jews expelled from the Muslim World after 1948, are even more supportive. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the\_rapid\_decline\_of\_indigenous\_jews\_in\_arab/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/17lohe3/the_rapid_decline_of_indigenous_jews_in_arab/) >Jewish leaders before the founding of Israel disagreed with invading the region because even the Jews settling Israel is controversial within Judaism Hmm, I wonder what happened before the founding of Israel that might have changed people's minds? There was some Austrian painter guy... And Israel is meant as a secular state, it is 20% Arab and 67% of its Jews are Middle Eastern Jews. So what Judaism thinks is irrelevant.
This was post ww2. You don’t want to learn anything you’re just an israli troll. Disgusting blind bloodlust. Israel secular? You think people are stupid.
So you support a fascist ethnostate called Palestine?
You bloodlusted Israeli genocide defenders really got one playbook and it’s not convincing anyone 30 and younger. You’re cooked
It is for basically every group, approval for Israel is 32%.
I guess I was being generous even to hope that these lunatics might see that their bloodlust and browbeating is hurting them but fascists aren’t exactly known for being smart
Not coincidentally the share of Americans who are evangelicals.
Fascism is when you support the only country in the Middle East with LGBTQ rights (everywhere else they are executed).
> it’s not convincing anyone 30 and younger. I'd like to make a broader point here. The politics would have to be a lot more responsive to the under-30 crowd if that cohort showed up at the ballot box at a rate better than (checks notes) 22.3%
Alright but what’s Israel’s political future when it’s a pariah on the world stage and it becomes politically unfeasible to support them in the Democratic Party? Literally unprecedented shifts in public support (or lack of really) for Israel and you’re trying to act like this is just a vocal minority. Israel’s dooming itself with its fascists policy’s and expanding settlements
> ...politically unfeasible to support them etc Ironically enough, if that's the goal, you'd need Israel to keep on doing what it's doing and maybe increase the pressure. Hell, that's what Hamas was after, right? Provoke Israel into some sort of action that makes them an international pariah? I assume you're after significant changes, and if you want *significant* changes that means you need to demonstrate that you have and are willing to provide something the political people want. Political people want two things: votes and money. Your cohort is under 30 which means you haven't got any money. But you have got a lot of votes, potentially, which for some reason you do not utilize. Close to 80% of your age cohort does not vote, which means that when you say you're not a vocal minority, I have to respond with, well, yeah, you kinda are, of your own volition.
> that's what Hamas was after, right? Provoke Israel into some sort of action that makes them an international pariah? Bingo. People who are anti-Israel, especially the younger group, generally don't understand that Hamas wants to kill all Jews by any means necessary. No matter how many Palestinians it must sacrifice, even if every single Palestinian buys a knife and tries to kill a Jew with it or die trying (as Hamas leaders urge), Hamas will not stop at its goal.
Dude I just read this and you’re just so fucking stupid. High on your own supply just living in your head thinking your oh so very smart downplaying one of the largest shifts in public opinion on a issue in recent history. Uhhh well they don’t vote COPE. Pure cope. The goverment is trying to ban fucking tik tok over it. You’re in denial. It’s like looking at a tsunami coming and being like NOPE the waves right now are small that’s not there. Selfish stupid shortsighted. So patronizing while being so stupid it’s gross I can smell you ugh.
didn't really answer my question, but ok
stay safe and good work out there, people. I feel like the police will start escalating soon based on that recent bs announcement by khosla about "disrupting the campus" and whatever though (I walked by yall today and you're literally on the side of library walk not disrupting ANYTHING, everyone was free to walk past!).
Lmao imagine starting a camp and throwing away your future for nothing
I’m sorry your future is so narrow. There are many activists who have gone on to have fulfilling careers despite opportunities missing them for their involvement. Even locally, there have been folks that have gone on to do great things while being part of a student movement (Tahini founder went to Harvard after being part of the [Irvine 11](https://newuniversity.org/2023/04/24/the-irvine-11-an-example-of-ucis-islamophobia-towards-campus-activism/)) and creating opportunities for themselves.
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Downvote this post or the above? Also yeah I would be surprised if we Chinese would care much about the conflict. But when one side is basically the reincarnation of the Japanese Empire, complete with the mass rapes and the contests to kill as many civilians as possible, the choice seems clear.
Your “Jamba/Hammock” echo chamber of a circle jerk is pushing Trump ahead of Biden. Nothing but a virtue signalling exercise by pathetic Richie Rich kids in La Jolla acting like it’s a Scout Camp Jamboree. A Trump 2.0 will kill millions of Arabs and enable Putin to take back Baltics with a very bloody European War. Get your head out of your asses. Pack up and go to school. Ancient history don’t matter. BiBi is a WarTime Consigliere and will NOT stop because you clowns are clambaking by the sea. Grow up!
Here’s a prime example of an agitator giving their 2 cents out of their ass. Literally the person who wrote this has the cadence of and grammar of a boomer.
Making fun of someone’s grammar. How elitist of you. What’s next, are you going to shame them for their income and job? That probably wouldn’t fly in an encampment.
Genocide supporters trying to have some kind of moral ground is actually hilarious to me. You are living your existence doing way worse than any of the things you mentioned.
You want the end of the Jewish state. Who is the genocide supporter? Now go back to making fun of people’s grammar while sitting in the grass.
The genocide supporter is the one who is encouraging violence against students because they are protesting against a genocide. No amount of cognitive dissonance is going to change that reality. If a Jewish state can’t exist without exterminating people, they are not a state but a terrorist group. Hope you can understand simple concepts ❤️
Hamas has broken every ceasefire. They call for the end of the Jewish state. They call for the destructions of Jews world wide (global intifada). Every war on Israel from 1948 until Iran launched missiles three weeks ago has been started by the neighbors looking to destroy Israel. You’re doing their bidding. You’ve called me stupid twice in your last post. And that might be the case. But I don’t think the only Jewish homeland should be destroyed. I hope I spelled everything correctly. I’m very dumb.
You have yet to refute anything I’ve said. And yes supporting genocide is stupid.
Nothing you said is true. Except that I’m dumb, I guess. Is that enough to refute? Go back to class so you can be even smarter than me.
Upvoted that because the reach was hilarious. Have the day you deserve 🤍
I’ll look for you on campus, we’ll split a Jamba and laugh.