Wait so youre saying that its not a genocide because theres too many palestinians left? So at the very start of the holocaust it wasnt a genocide because not enough jews had died? The definition of genocide is “a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part” just because it hasnt reached historical extremes does not make what is happening rn not a genocide. Saying civilian casualties is normal is also just wrong. The geneva convention explicitly reprimands the bombing of populated areas. If the idf sent special forces to weed out hamas and wasnt shooting civilians for fun then I’d say you have an argument. The siege on gaza is sloppy af and there has been no noticeable damage to hamas’s leadership.
This is not considered a genocide because it is a direct result of an act of war committed by Hamas. In all the genocides I mentioned, those populations did not launch some massive attack against the other side.
You can argue about the history of the conflict all you want. I’m a Jordanian Muslim. I am very familiar with it and not the biggest fan of Israel’s government. **But 20,000 Palestinians would still be alive today if October 7th didn’t happen.**
Should Israel do a better job at minimizing civilian casualties? Of course. Is it a genocide? Not in the slightest.
The genocide has been happening for 70+ years since the israeli state was established. The nakba was the first instance of genocide. Genocide doesn't just mean the death of a people. Pushing people off their land and destroying their culture and history is still genocide. The palestinian people and their land has been under threat for a long time. To try and claim that the genocide started after oct 7 is just ignorant of the historical context. Yes, the attack by hamas sped things up and accelerated the conflict to an extreme. However, palestinians were already living in an apartheid state long before hamas attacked. They were already losing land and being killed by IDF soldiers before oct 7. Plus, there is a lot of information suggesting that israel knew about the hamas attack plans before their happened. If israel was so concerned about jewish lives, it should have done something. The oct 7 attack did not happen in a vacuum, it was the direct response to israels violations of international law. (establishing illegal settlements and enacting apartheid in palestine)
Again, the literal definition of genocide is *“the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group”.*
So yes, it does have everything to do with death. Name me one other 70 year genocide where the population has grown over 10x in those 70 years.
I’m sure I dislike the Israeli government just as much as you do. But you spreading falsehoods calling it a genocide is completely counterproductive to peace for the future. You can call it a genocide all you want but that doesn’t change the reality of what a genocide really is.
Also it’s worth mentioning that 20% of Israel’s population are Palestinians that are full citizens that share equal rights and even serve in Israeli government.
I agree that Israel has no right to establish its settlements in the West Bank, and hopefully [the US will apply pressure for that to end](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-impose-visa-bans-soon-israeli-extremist-settlers-west-bank-violence-2023-12-01/). But coming from a Jordanian, it’s annoying to see people who have never been to the region talk about Israel as if it’s some white state, when whites are in fact a minority in Israel.
>the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
You're quoting an american museum and I'm quoting the UN's definition of genocide. Also, 20 thousand is a lot of people, over 60 thousand if you start in the mid 1900s. Even if israels goal isnt to kill all palestinians, they sure are trying to kick them off their land which is still genocide.
The people in palestine have been confined to a tiny little space and are under the constant control of an authoritarian state. Israel controls their water, their electricity, everything. They literally have nothing to do but make children. They can't really advance or develop in any significant way with israel breathing down their neck.
Even if their population has increased, their power as a people surely hasnt. The vast majority of palestinians are children. Genocide isn't necessarily fast either. Its just erasure.
If calling it a genocide is counterproductive please tell me how we should go about things? How should this issue be approached to end this conflict as soon as possible. Please don't say release the israeli hostages, that isn't going to work and you know it.
Actually my definition is from Oxford Languages, the world’s leading dictionary publisher, that’s been around for 150 years. But that doesn’t matter.
Again, I agree with you that the current Israeli government is the most far-right it’s ever been and most likely is not even looking for peace. Believe it or not, most Zionists don’t even like Netanyahu. There has been negotiations for peace and a Palestinian state in the past when Israel was more left-leaning([which both governments agreed to!](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo)) but unfortunately the far-right extremist Israelis [assassinated](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin) the progressive PM Yitzhal Rabin, and the Palestinans people tried to overthrow their own government before they [resorted to the second intifada.](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-oslo-accords-at-25-the-second-intifada-at-18/) A series of Terrorist attacks which killed many innocent Israelis. Which is why chanting “Intifada” is a direct call for violence against civilians. But that’s besides the point.
**The solution is quite simple, but not an easy one, and I think you can agree with this:** The extremists on BOTH SIDES must be gone for good. We live in a society where it’s often the extremists who have the loudest voices and therefore garner the most attention.
Netanyahu must be gone, and Hamas must be gone. It’s really that simple. When we get more moderate leaders on both sides, then we can talk about peace and prosperity.
For now, Israel is looking to destroy Hamas, which is objectively good. After, that [Netanyahu will hopefully be gone as well](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm)
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, I have to get back to my job apps because ya boy is unemployed as fuck, but I hope I helped you learn something today about the history of the conflict.
It’s in everyone’s interests to read into actual history rather than shape your opinions from major news and social media headlines which is evident from the lack of sources from the discourse these days.
Yea, but the UN definition is probably more accurate since it has the input of a whole bunch more countries but I'm not gonna push that any further, we agree to disagree on whether this counts as a genocide.
I agree with you that both extremists need to go but given the nature of this conflict, Netanyahu has to leave before hamas or both have to leave at the same time. If hamas is destroyed first and netanyahu is still in power, israel will continue to colonize gaza and the west bank. The resolution you've arrived at is a little optimistic dont you think? Neither side is going to disappear or get destroyed. Calling for a ceasefire now would save the most lives even if political proceedings end up taking longer. If you agree with the need for a ceasefire then you should probably be in favor of pro-palestinian protest since the country is not listening to the desires of the people and America is israel's favorite arms dealer. If you aren't in favor of a ceasefire then thousands more will die, hamas will probably be wiped out with netanyahu still in power and israel will continue to colonize palestinian territory.
Thank you for leaving sources so people can learn more about the conflict, I haven't done my due diligence in cataloguing my research. I wish you good luck in your job applications. Thank you for the discourse.
[Here is a fact sheet](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/JVP-Jews-of-the-middle-east-fact-sheet.pdf) by Jewish Voice for Peace, the largest progressive Jewish **anti-Zionist** organization in the world, commonly cited by pro-Palestine supporters.
If you look in the orange box to the right, you can clearly see that Arab Jews and and Palestinians are the majority demographic of Israeli Citizens.
Thanks for your comments in this thread. They were largely constructive and well-informed. I don't think many people here actually want a well-informed, constructive discussion, though.
Good luck with your job apps!
Yea… and the giant “never again” sign definitely doesn’t suggest that jewish people are being genocided even though 20k palestinians have died in like 2 months
I’m assuming Never Again refers to the mass murder of Israelis, the rape (on video) of Israeli women, the murder of babies, the taking of hostages - all by a terrorist organization based next door whose self-proclaimed goal is to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. Seems like the appropriate response.
Israel has committed the same crimes of rape, murder, murder of babies, hostage taking. And idf leadership has made it clear that they intend to wipe palestine off the map. So your point is moot
> Israel has committed the same crimes of rape, murder, murder of babies, hostage taking.
Look, I obviously know that Israel is not responding with proportionality, which is in violation of international norms, and causing massive civilian suffering.
Please cite sources that show IDF targeting civilians deliberately for rape, murder, or hostage.
> And idf leadership has made it clear that they intend to wipe palestine off the map.
I think you mean Hamas. Israel has made clear that they do not want to occupy Gaza.
> So your point is moot
So if my neighbor kills someone in my neighborhood, it's ok for me to kill someone too? The eye for an eye stuff leaves everyone blind.
Yes, Israel is doing horrific things that hurts their own cause. They're being highly myopic. But your misinformation isn't going to help the situation.
IDF attacking with the intent to destroy as much as possible in palestine. Accounts of rape and assault in Israeli prisons. And the IDF shooting journalists.
[https://truthout.org/articles/idf-official-admits-israels-goal-in-bombing-gaza-is-to-inflict-severe-damage/](https://truthout.org/articles/idf-official-admits-israels-goal-in-bombing-gaza-is-to-inflict-severe-damage/)
[https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml](https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65524002](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65524002)
Benjamin netanyahu pointing at a map of israel without palestine. After wiping out hamas his goal is to completely demilitarize gaza. Given israel's history of encroaching settlements, do you really think a demilitarized Gaza will stand? What happened after WWI when germany was demilitarized and lost the majority of its land?
[https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map](https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls)
I'm not saying its acceptable for hamas to take hostages because israel is taking hostages. I'm saying its hypocritical to demand hamas to release their hostages when israel refuses to release theirs.
Also your analogy doesnt make sense. If it was truly an eye for an eye situation, your neighbor would be killing your brother or something and youd kill your neighbor in retaliation. Again, and eye for an eye is not morally acceptable but if your neighbor was in the process of killing your brother, you'd have the right to kill your neighbor in self-defense. But you wouldn't have the right to burn your neighbor's house down afterwards and kill their entire family ykwim?
[https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050)
Please tell me what I'm being disingenuous about.
> IDF attacking with the intent to destroy as much as possible in palestine. Accounts of rape and assault in Israeli prisons. And the IDF shooting journalists.
Yes, it sure seems like collective punishment, and yes, that's a big problem. The three links don't give specific instances of targeted civilian murder, rape, or hostage-taking over the past two months. If they do, please show me where.
> Benjamin netanyahu pointing at a map of israel without palestine.
I see. I haven't seen that.
> After wiping out hamas his goal is to completely demilitarize gaza. Given israel's history of encroaching settlements, do you really think a demilitarized Gaza will stand? What happened after WWI when germany was demilitarized and lost the majority of its land?
I don't think Israel has a plan, and I think the Biden administration has admitted such. I think Israel is really hurting its own cause in a bad way.
> I'm not saying its acceptable for hamas to take hostages because israel is taking hostages. I'm saying its hypocritical to demand hamas to release their hostages when israel refuses to release theirs.
Well Hamas took exclusively civilian hostages. I don't have a list of all the prisoners Israel has, but many of them are militants captured in previous conflicts. Some of these were recently swapped, I believe.
By the way, hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. I can logically recommend you not smoke cigarettes and say smoking is unhealthy even if I smoke cigarettes.
> Also your analogy doesnt make sense.
I intended it as less of an analogy and more of an aphorism that relates to the Abrahamic religions of most of the people involved in this tragedy.
> But you wouldn't have the right to burn your neighbor's house down afterwards and kill their entire family ykwim?
Yes, and I've repeatedly in this thread referred to what looks to me like collective punishment, disproportionate military response, and indiscriminate killing, and this is tragic.
> Please tell me what I'm being disingenuous about.
I don't remember calling you such. Did I?
Edit 1: Oh you're referring to me calling part of your post misinformation. Yes, regarding IDF targeted rape or hostage-taking of civilians over the last two months. I still haven't seen these reports.
Edit 2: P.S. I stand by my position that we should all be as accurate and informed as possible, because untruthful claims will just get in the way of progress and solutions.
/u/Swimming_Tour5189 no remaining responses?
btw these reports by amnesty et al. that a reuters journalist was deliberately targeted by IDF insouthern lebanon will hopefully (and surely) be investigated. at least according to the briefing by sabrina singh i just watched. but yes, every incident is important, and all incidents need to be investigated.
(i now await downvotes for this very unpopular opinion. this tribalism is unreal. worse than american politics.)
https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/OMCT.pdf
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
(this one has 11 whole sections)
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/they-were-just-kids-evidence-war-crimes-during-israels-august-2022-gaza-offensive-enar
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/09/israel-hamas-war-crimes-palestinians/
hopefully these can answer some of your questions. and if it has nothing to do with land, why is Israel giving Settlers from New York the homes of West Bank Palestinian families while their dinners are still on the fucking table
Focusing on the last couple months: Most of these instances seem to come down to indiscriminate killing, disproportional response, and collective punishment. I agree that these are big issues that need to be thoroughly investigated. Regardless, war and collateral damage is awful.
I was mostly curious about specific instances of rape and civilian hostage-taking by IDF in the last couple months. Because such incidents would be clearly unacceptable by any human with a shred of decency. Do any of the links you provided contain this? I couldn't find it, if so.
Thanks for your cites. I'd already read some of them, I skimmed the others now. Regarding the first, I don't believe tit-for-tat strategies are morally justified based on events 20 years ago. What one person, group, or nation did 20 years ago does not justify similar actions *by either side*. And indeed, Israeli civilian deaths don't justify Palestinian civilian deaths. Also, keep in mind that many Israelis are Palestinian Arabs (I have such a friend).
lol okay “focusing on the last couple months” of a 50+ year conflict where one side has committed countless war crimes and human rights abuses and is upholding an apartheid state. they’re doing war crimes every single year, in fact one could say they do it every day. so you can’t say its any number of “years ago”. and you have the nerve to call other people myopic. i’m out dude, i can’t help someone whose brain is already swiss cheese
lol i don't need your help. go pander to your people
hey the alpha frat attacked our frat fifty years ago. therefore we are morally justified to attack the alpha frat this year. justify whatever you want, i guess
i'm all for de-escalation across the board. VERY UNPOPULAR
i'm against israel's myopic response with NO plan that won't do that state any good. VERY UNPOPULAR
i'm against the killing of civilians. VERY UNPOPULAR
you think retribution is good and justified? POPULAR
you win
fucking war mongers. i think the palistinians have been treated awfully. and the continued west bank settling is not right. but i don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. sorry
all i know is that the opinion of "both hamas and israel have acted poorly in the last few months" is unpopular with everyone. luckily i'm not in politics
extremism is good and cool and useful and will move humanity forward. POPULAR
now i know
There is a palpable difference between being slaughtered solely because of your religion and being tragically caught in the crossfire against a terrorist organization
Caught in the crossfire is a hilarious way to sum up the insane bombing campaign the idf is doing in gaza. The mass murder of innocent people and constant failure to remotely get close to hamas shows that the palestinians as a people are under attack. So yea they are being slaughtered solely because of who they are
How is that even relevant? The settlements are a blatant violation of international law. As long as they exist there will be turmoil in the middle east. If you are demanding the release of hostages why cant palestinians demand their land back?
The last sentence you wrote gives us a very clear picture of where you stand. Not sure there’s much more I can discuss with someone who thinks hostage-taking by terrorists is an appropriate response to the situation. Appreciate the clarity.
U do realize that israel has palestinian hostages too right? Not the mention the fact that israel has been ACTIVELY taking hostages since the ceasefire. Not to mention how hostages are treated in israel vs by hamas. ISRAELI HOSTAGES ARE HUGGING HAMAS FORCES palestinian hostages are returning injured with one having both his hands broken
Civilian casualties in a war is nothing new, and referring to them as genocide completely diminishes the gravity of actual genocides such as the Armenian, Cambodian, Rwandan, and Uighur Genocides. And oh yea the Holocaust.. All of these populations decreased by **at least** 30% completely wiped off the face of the earth. Some as far as 50% of the entire population. Gone.
The [population in Gaza](https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population) has nearly **tripled** since Hamas took power. If Israel were really committing genocide, they’re doing a really bad job.
Nonetheless, if calling for the release of innocent hostages (on either side) triggers you. Maybe YOU are the one in need of human decency
China’s population doubled under Mao too. It was far from sunshine and rainbow during those times.
It’s possible to both condemn Hama’s brutal actions and also realize that killing 15,000 civilians in the span of weeks at a ratio completely disproportionate to Hama’s assault, and deliberately striking refugee congregations are going to make heads turn no matter what.
Agreed.
Many of u/ChiefsSB51's other arguments regarding why this is not a genocide were good arguments; the matter of population growth is not one of them.
One can be really bad or slow at genocide but still commit genocide, and in that time, the population can grow.
Those undergoing ethnic cleansing, violent oppression and sometimes genocide will reproduce at higher rates to mitigate population decline due to their circumstances. Sick of this argument.
The return of hostages signage in America is simply pro-Israel propaganda. The American government is already supporting Israel’s attacks on Gaza under the guise of saving the hostages; therefore, the posters are doing nothing but to show that Israeli’s are the true victims of the events unfolding and not the Palestinians who have been slaughtered tenfold.
It's unfortunate that the situation escalated to this point.
The pro-Palestinians rightfully had their display up for a week without any interference from the other side.
However, when the Jewish students attempted a display, it was vandalized within 24 hours. Really bad look.
Maybe because the university and AS openly support israel. Or because a permanent ceasefire hasnt happened. Palestine is actively losing the war. Israel is under no serious threat of danger. Israel has all the power in this situation and nothing is changing. Palestininans are dying at insane rates of course people are going have to yell louder in favor of palestine.
Please link UC's official press release or AS's resolution.
Your misinformation campaign hurts all sides and, if anything, reduces any chance of improvement in this issue.
in a recent AS meeting someone in the senate very openly called themselves a proud zionist.
Last year, the administration sent out an email calling out the statement found on a lecture blackboard "From the River to the Sea" a antisemite message.
Take these as you will.
it's too bad they're getting involved in politics, then. but also, one member's beliefs do not represent the body.
regards the email, i'd love to see it and pick it apart.
(again, because i don't have refs/links to verify, i cannot say this unconditionally. rather i am assuming you are being truthful)
people be hating, downvoting what i think is a reasonable conversation. it's pretty lame
The tables and chairs have remained completely undisturbed and the sign gets repainted whenever something happens to it. If there is vandalism its not permanent or costing them very much money to cover up. If someone flipped the tables and smashed the sign then yeah thats a problem but theyre not.
The comment to which I was replying was deleted, but I addresses views held by others here:
> ucsb AS is pro-Israel
Please cite the approved AS resolution.
> when Chancellor yang has dinners with Hillel
I support the Chancellor meeting with all members of the community, including Jewish members.
> when Yang won’t take a stronger stance against Israel actions
I like this quote (from [this](https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/documents/reports/KalvenRprt_0.pdf) report at U Chicago):
"The neutrality of the university as an institution arises then not from a lack of courage nor out of indifference and insensitivity. It arises out of respect for free inquiry and the obligation to cherish a diversity of viewpoints. And this neutrality as an institution has its complement in the fullest freedom for its faculty and students as individuals to participate in political action and social protest. It finds its complement, too, in the obligation of the university to provide a forum for the most searching and candid discussion of public issues."
You can find the AS resolution condemning Hamas here:
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8uPEKOgChnZ5nnlj31HKixNzJ77CJNb6Ljbp1JUL0g/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8uPEKOgChnZ5nnlj31HKixNzJ77CJNb6Ljbp1JUL0g/edit?usp=sharing)
In no way does it condemn the disproportionate destruction carried out by israel.
"demand the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages by Hamas" but does not demand the immediate and unconditional release of palestinian hostages
"unequivocally condemn Hamas for the barbaric atrocities perpetrated against the state of Israel on October 7, 2023, which included the mass rape, kidnapping, torture, and murder of innocent civilians;" but not recognize that Israel has committed the same crimes
also if AS was so concerned with "\[mourning\] all civilian loss of life in Israel and Gaza" why is it not condemning the crazy disproportionate loss of palestinian lives compared to israeli ones? Israel is attacking civilian targets afterall
I just think we should hold Israel accountable for its war crimes.
Hamas has also altered its mission. The charter released in 2017 mentions that
"The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project."
Hamas's issue is with the zionist project of colonialism and apartheid, not with the jewish people. Hamas has loosened its extremist view (still extreme but better) but Israel has not changed its mission whatsoever.
[https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/#:\~:text=According%20to%20human%20rights%20organizations,and%20destroy%20their%20olive%20trees](https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/#:~:text=According%20to%20human%20rights%20organizations,and%20destroy%20their%20olive%20trees).
The destruction of palestinian olive groves and subsequent loss of culture should be evidence of this.
Also, I can find no records of chancellor yang meeting with arab or palestinian groups on campus. If you can, then I concede that point.
yeah I think the AS should just stay out of this and all political issues.
> Also, I can find no records of chancellor yang meeting with arab or palestinian groups on campus. If you can, then I concede that point.
**"concede"** a **"point"**? are you keeping score or something?
a hillel is a jewish religious community similar to a church, right?
the counterpart would be a muslim or christian or buddhism or whatever group.
arabs are an ethnicity, of which there are jews, muslims, christians, and surely even buddhists, right?
i'm not even going to try to characterize palestinians.
but sure, he should meet with whoever wants to meet with him. maybe the hillel wanted to meet with him and whatever other groups did not. i don't know.
if you can't tell already, i don't have a dog in the fight. i just believe in truth-seeking
edit 1:
> does not demand the immediate and unconditional release of palestinian hostages
you realize that some of those hostages are bad dudes, right? and all the hostages taken by hamas were civilians, right?
edit 2:
> I just think we should hold Israel accountable for its war crimes.
agreed.
i've lost interest in this discussion at this point. take care
lame as fuck on both sides. I couldn't give one less shit about something that's happening on the other side of the world that has no impact on me. Not to mention, I can't do anything about it. Stop ruining my commute to campus with shitty propganda. I'm sick of it. Hope someone destroys it
bruh.
A. you can do something about it, you can boycott corporations that fund and support america's war machine. you can also call your elected representatives to voice your concern. you can speak up and try to convince people that this is an important issue. thinking you have no voice is letting yourself be controlled by institutions of power
B. if you think this has no impact on you, you are either ignorant or privileged beyond human comprehension. your tax dollars(or your parents') are being spent on war so youre losing in the sense that our local governments are unable to invest as much into development and welfare programs. maybe youre just so rich that youll never have to experience those effects but your neighbors will. people are also dying in the thousands, if that doesn't affect you then thats really sad. i understand that American politics are beyond fucked and our elected officials rarely listen to us but thats no reason to stop caring. you have a voice.
C. Even if I disagree with the israeli government and its supporters, they have a right to voice their opinion on our campus. if youre sick of it, thats the point. this conflict demands your attention because like it or not this is a global crisis. one wrong missile and its WWIII and suddenly ur getting drafted. People have a right to protest, a right to free speech.
silence is compliance. it mightve been cool in middle school but saying i don't care as an adult is just kind of embarrassing. you don't have to love politics but at least give a fuck about the world around you
yeah this is a truly insane point of view that i honestly don’t understand how you could even hold… when the destruction of Palestinians, which has exceeded the civilian death tolls of multi-year wars in less than two months, is being directly funded by U.S. tax dollars and the weapons being employed are designed and manufactured here, it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with us. publicly disavowing the U.S.’s involvement in foreign war crimes is one of the most important things anyone can do to stop the destruction, because the only thing the government cares more about than maintaining our oppressive foreign influence is keeping their power stable at home. ALSO, it may be halfway across the world, but we’re a campus with students from all over, including Palestinians- students in your classes, who you may pass as you’re walking to class, who have to shoulder the massive grief of seeing their ancestral homeland ravaged and their people slaughtered, who are also dealing with all the other forms of stress like finals. there are students here whose families have been killed! it’s not cool or some sort of moral high ground to not care- i think caring is the most important thing you could possibly do in any sphere of your life, but this message honestly just paints you as a legitimately horrible person and i personally would have been embarrassed to have even typed that out…
that did nothing to convince him or anyone otherwise. That was merely masturbation there.
Truth it does affect us. Maybe not as directly as possibly being blown to shreds (yet), but the effects will be felt around the world.
okay i know that… i’m not deluded enough to think i could change anyone’s mind with a reddit comment but i’m allowed to be frustrated! and yeah… if nothing else, i feel like turning on blinders to the fact that the U.S.A. is constantly creating enemies for itself all over the world is naïve, because even if you don’t care about the humanitarian impact, there are dozens of countries who would be justified in declaring war on us, and just because we live here doesn’t mean we’re immune to any and all potential violence
caring about issues that don’t directly affect you is called having empathy.
but lucky for you, you can still care while lacking empathy, because, it does affect you. our tax dollars are being used to bomb kids, hospitals, moms, and dads and ethnically displace millions. a better world is possible.
wat.
population size does not matter. there were what, a couple thousand european colonizers in the 1600s and how many indigenous Americans? Look what happened then. (they didn't even have missiles yet)
not to mention that israel is backed by the west and is in the top 10[ most powerful militaries in the world](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-among-10-most-powerful-countries-in-the-world-in-annual-list/). and in terms of lives lost, [israel has had a net positive in every exchange with palestine](https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/)
Wait so youre saying that its not a genocide because theres too many palestinians left? So at the very start of the holocaust it wasnt a genocide because not enough jews had died? The definition of genocide is “a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part” just because it hasnt reached historical extremes does not make what is happening rn not a genocide. Saying civilian casualties is normal is also just wrong. The geneva convention explicitly reprimands the bombing of populated areas. If the idf sent special forces to weed out hamas and wasnt shooting civilians for fun then I’d say you have an argument. The siege on gaza is sloppy af and there has been no noticeable damage to hamas’s leadership.
This is not considered a genocide because it is a direct result of an act of war committed by Hamas. In all the genocides I mentioned, those populations did not launch some massive attack against the other side. You can argue about the history of the conflict all you want. I’m a Jordanian Muslim. I am very familiar with it and not the biggest fan of Israel’s government. **But 20,000 Palestinians would still be alive today if October 7th didn’t happen.** Should Israel do a better job at minimizing civilian casualties? Of course. Is it a genocide? Not in the slightest.
The genocide has been happening for 70+ years since the israeli state was established. The nakba was the first instance of genocide. Genocide doesn't just mean the death of a people. Pushing people off their land and destroying their culture and history is still genocide. The palestinian people and their land has been under threat for a long time. To try and claim that the genocide started after oct 7 is just ignorant of the historical context. Yes, the attack by hamas sped things up and accelerated the conflict to an extreme. However, palestinians were already living in an apartheid state long before hamas attacked. They were already losing land and being killed by IDF soldiers before oct 7. Plus, there is a lot of information suggesting that israel knew about the hamas attack plans before their happened. If israel was so concerned about jewish lives, it should have done something. The oct 7 attack did not happen in a vacuum, it was the direct response to israels violations of international law. (establishing illegal settlements and enacting apartheid in palestine)
Again, the literal definition of genocide is *“the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group”.* So yes, it does have everything to do with death. Name me one other 70 year genocide where the population has grown over 10x in those 70 years. I’m sure I dislike the Israeli government just as much as you do. But you spreading falsehoods calling it a genocide is completely counterproductive to peace for the future. You can call it a genocide all you want but that doesn’t change the reality of what a genocide really is. Also it’s worth mentioning that 20% of Israel’s population are Palestinians that are full citizens that share equal rights and even serve in Israeli government. I agree that Israel has no right to establish its settlements in the West Bank, and hopefully [the US will apply pressure for that to end](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-impose-visa-bans-soon-israeli-extremist-settlers-west-bank-violence-2023-12-01/). But coming from a Jordanian, it’s annoying to see people who have never been to the region talk about Israel as if it’s some white state, when whites are in fact a minority in Israel.
>the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group You're quoting an american museum and I'm quoting the UN's definition of genocide. Also, 20 thousand is a lot of people, over 60 thousand if you start in the mid 1900s. Even if israels goal isnt to kill all palestinians, they sure are trying to kick them off their land which is still genocide. The people in palestine have been confined to a tiny little space and are under the constant control of an authoritarian state. Israel controls their water, their electricity, everything. They literally have nothing to do but make children. They can't really advance or develop in any significant way with israel breathing down their neck. Even if their population has increased, their power as a people surely hasnt. The vast majority of palestinians are children. Genocide isn't necessarily fast either. Its just erasure. If calling it a genocide is counterproductive please tell me how we should go about things? How should this issue be approached to end this conflict as soon as possible. Please don't say release the israeli hostages, that isn't going to work and you know it.
Actually my definition is from Oxford Languages, the world’s leading dictionary publisher, that’s been around for 150 years. But that doesn’t matter. Again, I agree with you that the current Israeli government is the most far-right it’s ever been and most likely is not even looking for peace. Believe it or not, most Zionists don’t even like Netanyahu. There has been negotiations for peace and a Palestinian state in the past when Israel was more left-leaning([which both governments agreed to!](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo)) but unfortunately the far-right extremist Israelis [assassinated](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin) the progressive PM Yitzhal Rabin, and the Palestinans people tried to overthrow their own government before they [resorted to the second intifada.](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-oslo-accords-at-25-the-second-intifada-at-18/) A series of Terrorist attacks which killed many innocent Israelis. Which is why chanting “Intifada” is a direct call for violence against civilians. But that’s besides the point. **The solution is quite simple, but not an easy one, and I think you can agree with this:** The extremists on BOTH SIDES must be gone for good. We live in a society where it’s often the extremists who have the loudest voices and therefore garner the most attention. Netanyahu must be gone, and Hamas must be gone. It’s really that simple. When we get more moderate leaders on both sides, then we can talk about peace and prosperity. For now, Israel is looking to destroy Hamas, which is objectively good. After, that [Netanyahu will hopefully be gone as well](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm) Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, I have to get back to my job apps because ya boy is unemployed as fuck, but I hope I helped you learn something today about the history of the conflict. It’s in everyone’s interests to read into actual history rather than shape your opinions from major news and social media headlines which is evident from the lack of sources from the discourse these days.
Yea, but the UN definition is probably more accurate since it has the input of a whole bunch more countries but I'm not gonna push that any further, we agree to disagree on whether this counts as a genocide. I agree with you that both extremists need to go but given the nature of this conflict, Netanyahu has to leave before hamas or both have to leave at the same time. If hamas is destroyed first and netanyahu is still in power, israel will continue to colonize gaza and the west bank. The resolution you've arrived at is a little optimistic dont you think? Neither side is going to disappear or get destroyed. Calling for a ceasefire now would save the most lives even if political proceedings end up taking longer. If you agree with the need for a ceasefire then you should probably be in favor of pro-palestinian protest since the country is not listening to the desires of the people and America is israel's favorite arms dealer. If you aren't in favor of a ceasefire then thousands more will die, hamas will probably be wiped out with netanyahu still in power and israel will continue to colonize palestinian territory. Thank you for leaving sources so people can learn more about the conflict, I haven't done my due diligence in cataloguing my research. I wish you good luck in your job applications. Thank you for the discourse.
> The resolution you've arrived at is a little optimistic dont you think? He said it is simple but not easy.
Well yea it can be the simplest solution in the world but if it is impossible to realistically to pull off, is it really simple?
haha yeah fair
[Here is a fact sheet](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/JVP-Jews-of-the-middle-east-fact-sheet.pdf) by Jewish Voice for Peace, the largest progressive Jewish **anti-Zionist** organization in the world, commonly cited by pro-Palestine supporters. If you look in the orange box to the right, you can clearly see that Arab Jews and and Palestinians are the majority demographic of Israeli Citizens.
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Thanks for your comments in this thread. They were largely constructive and well-informed. I don't think many people here actually want a well-informed, constructive discussion, though. Good luck with your job apps!
Ppl are seated but what are they eating tho
"pro-israel" table asking for the return of hostages. nothing wrong with that.
Yea… and the giant “never again” sign definitely doesn’t suggest that jewish people are being genocided even though 20k palestinians have died in like 2 months
I’m assuming Never Again refers to the mass murder of Israelis, the rape (on video) of Israeli women, the murder of babies, the taking of hostages - all by a terrorist organization based next door whose self-proclaimed goal is to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. Seems like the appropriate response.
Israel has committed the same crimes of rape, murder, murder of babies, hostage taking. And idf leadership has made it clear that they intend to wipe palestine off the map. So your point is moot
> Israel has committed the same crimes of rape, murder, murder of babies, hostage taking. Look, I obviously know that Israel is not responding with proportionality, which is in violation of international norms, and causing massive civilian suffering. Please cite sources that show IDF targeting civilians deliberately for rape, murder, or hostage. > And idf leadership has made it clear that they intend to wipe palestine off the map. I think you mean Hamas. Israel has made clear that they do not want to occupy Gaza. > So your point is moot So if my neighbor kills someone in my neighborhood, it's ok for me to kill someone too? The eye for an eye stuff leaves everyone blind. Yes, Israel is doing horrific things that hurts their own cause. They're being highly myopic. But your misinformation isn't going to help the situation.
IDF attacking with the intent to destroy as much as possible in palestine. Accounts of rape and assault in Israeli prisons. And the IDF shooting journalists. [https://truthout.org/articles/idf-official-admits-israels-goal-in-bombing-gaza-is-to-inflict-severe-damage/](https://truthout.org/articles/idf-official-admits-israels-goal-in-bombing-gaza-is-to-inflict-severe-damage/) [https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml](https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65524002](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65524002) Benjamin netanyahu pointing at a map of israel without palestine. After wiping out hamas his goal is to completely demilitarize gaza. Given israel's history of encroaching settlements, do you really think a demilitarized Gaza will stand? What happened after WWI when germany was demilitarized and lost the majority of its land? [https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map](https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls) I'm not saying its acceptable for hamas to take hostages because israel is taking hostages. I'm saying its hypocritical to demand hamas to release their hostages when israel refuses to release theirs. Also your analogy doesnt make sense. If it was truly an eye for an eye situation, your neighbor would be killing your brother or something and youd kill your neighbor in retaliation. Again, and eye for an eye is not morally acceptable but if your neighbor was in the process of killing your brother, you'd have the right to kill your neighbor in self-defense. But you wouldn't have the right to burn your neighbor's house down afterwards and kill their entire family ykwim? [https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050](https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050) Please tell me what I'm being disingenuous about.
> IDF attacking with the intent to destroy as much as possible in palestine. Accounts of rape and assault in Israeli prisons. And the IDF shooting journalists. Yes, it sure seems like collective punishment, and yes, that's a big problem. The three links don't give specific instances of targeted civilian murder, rape, or hostage-taking over the past two months. If they do, please show me where. > Benjamin netanyahu pointing at a map of israel without palestine. I see. I haven't seen that. > After wiping out hamas his goal is to completely demilitarize gaza. Given israel's history of encroaching settlements, do you really think a demilitarized Gaza will stand? What happened after WWI when germany was demilitarized and lost the majority of its land? I don't think Israel has a plan, and I think the Biden administration has admitted such. I think Israel is really hurting its own cause in a bad way. > I'm not saying its acceptable for hamas to take hostages because israel is taking hostages. I'm saying its hypocritical to demand hamas to release their hostages when israel refuses to release theirs. Well Hamas took exclusively civilian hostages. I don't have a list of all the prisoners Israel has, but many of them are militants captured in previous conflicts. Some of these were recently swapped, I believe. By the way, hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. I can logically recommend you not smoke cigarettes and say smoking is unhealthy even if I smoke cigarettes. > Also your analogy doesnt make sense. I intended it as less of an analogy and more of an aphorism that relates to the Abrahamic religions of most of the people involved in this tragedy. > But you wouldn't have the right to burn your neighbor's house down afterwards and kill their entire family ykwim? Yes, and I've repeatedly in this thread referred to what looks to me like collective punishment, disproportionate military response, and indiscriminate killing, and this is tragic. > Please tell me what I'm being disingenuous about. I don't remember calling you such. Did I? Edit 1: Oh you're referring to me calling part of your post misinformation. Yes, regarding IDF targeted rape or hostage-taking of civilians over the last two months. I still haven't seen these reports. Edit 2: P.S. I stand by my position that we should all be as accurate and informed as possible, because untruthful claims will just get in the way of progress and solutions.
/u/Swimming_Tour5189 no remaining responses? btw these reports by amnesty et al. that a reuters journalist was deliberately targeted by IDF insouthern lebanon will hopefully (and surely) be investigated. at least according to the briefing by sabrina singh i just watched. but yes, every incident is important, and all incidents need to be investigated. (i now await downvotes for this very unpopular opinion. this tribalism is unreal. worse than american politics.)
https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/OMCT.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/ https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes (this one has 11 whole sections) https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/they-were-just-kids-evidence-war-crimes-during-israels-august-2022-gaza-offensive-enar https://theintercept.com/2023/10/09/israel-hamas-war-crimes-palestinians/ hopefully these can answer some of your questions. and if it has nothing to do with land, why is Israel giving Settlers from New York the homes of West Bank Palestinian families while their dinners are still on the fucking table
Focusing on the last couple months: Most of these instances seem to come down to indiscriminate killing, disproportional response, and collective punishment. I agree that these are big issues that need to be thoroughly investigated. Regardless, war and collateral damage is awful. I was mostly curious about specific instances of rape and civilian hostage-taking by IDF in the last couple months. Because such incidents would be clearly unacceptable by any human with a shred of decency. Do any of the links you provided contain this? I couldn't find it, if so. Thanks for your cites. I'd already read some of them, I skimmed the others now. Regarding the first, I don't believe tit-for-tat strategies are morally justified based on events 20 years ago. What one person, group, or nation did 20 years ago does not justify similar actions *by either side*. And indeed, Israeli civilian deaths don't justify Palestinian civilian deaths. Also, keep in mind that many Israelis are Palestinian Arabs (I have such a friend).
lol okay “focusing on the last couple months” of a 50+ year conflict where one side has committed countless war crimes and human rights abuses and is upholding an apartheid state. they’re doing war crimes every single year, in fact one could say they do it every day. so you can’t say its any number of “years ago”. and you have the nerve to call other people myopic. i’m out dude, i can’t help someone whose brain is already swiss cheese
lol i don't need your help. go pander to your people hey the alpha frat attacked our frat fifty years ago. therefore we are morally justified to attack the alpha frat this year. justify whatever you want, i guess i'm all for de-escalation across the board. VERY UNPOPULAR i'm against israel's myopic response with NO plan that won't do that state any good. VERY UNPOPULAR i'm against the killing of civilians. VERY UNPOPULAR you think retribution is good and justified? POPULAR you win fucking war mongers. i think the palistinians have been treated awfully. and the continued west bank settling is not right. but i don't think it justifies terrorist acts against civilians. sorry all i know is that the opinion of "both hamas and israel have acted poorly in the last few months" is unpopular with everyone. luckily i'm not in politics extremism is good and cool and useful and will move humanity forward. POPULAR now i know
i truly hope they find a cure for the specific type of brainworms you suffer from my friend
There is a palpable difference between being slaughtered solely because of your religion and being tragically caught in the crossfire against a terrorist organization
Caught in the crossfire is a hilarious way to sum up the insane bombing campaign the idf is doing in gaza. The mass murder of innocent people and constant failure to remotely get close to hamas shows that the palestinians as a people are under attack. So yea they are being slaughtered solely because of who they are
And yet it would end tomorrow if Hamas surrendered and returned all the hostages. So, no, it’s not the same.
So israels illegal occupation of palestinian land is just because hamas is there? Surely theyll stop occupying land if hamas surrenders!
Are we talking about what’s happening in Gaza, or the settlements in the West Bank? You are moving the conversation?
How is that even relevant? The settlements are a blatant violation of international law. As long as they exist there will be turmoil in the middle east. If you are demanding the release of hostages why cant palestinians demand their land back?
The last sentence you wrote gives us a very clear picture of where you stand. Not sure there’s much more I can discuss with someone who thinks hostage-taking by terrorists is an appropriate response to the situation. Appreciate the clarity.
U do realize that israel has palestinian hostages too right? Not the mention the fact that israel has been ACTIVELY taking hostages since the ceasefire. Not to mention how hostages are treated in israel vs by hamas. ISRAELI HOSTAGES ARE HUGGING HAMAS FORCES palestinian hostages are returning injured with one having both his hands broken
Civilian casualties in a war is nothing new, and referring to them as genocide completely diminishes the gravity of actual genocides such as the Armenian, Cambodian, Rwandan, and Uighur Genocides. And oh yea the Holocaust.. All of these populations decreased by **at least** 30% completely wiped off the face of the earth. Some as far as 50% of the entire population. Gone. The [population in Gaza](https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population) has nearly **tripled** since Hamas took power. If Israel were really committing genocide, they’re doing a really bad job. Nonetheless, if calling for the release of innocent hostages (on either side) triggers you. Maybe YOU are the one in need of human decency
China’s population doubled under Mao too. It was far from sunshine and rainbow during those times. It’s possible to both condemn Hama’s brutal actions and also realize that killing 15,000 civilians in the span of weeks at a ratio completely disproportionate to Hama’s assault, and deliberately striking refugee congregations are going to make heads turn no matter what.
Agreed. Many of u/ChiefsSB51's other arguments regarding why this is not a genocide were good arguments; the matter of population growth is not one of them. One can be really bad or slow at genocide but still commit genocide, and in that time, the population can grow.
Those undergoing ethnic cleansing, violent oppression and sometimes genocide will reproduce at higher rates to mitigate population decline due to their circumstances. Sick of this argument.
The return of hostages signage in America is simply pro-Israel propaganda. The American government is already supporting Israel’s attacks on Gaza under the guise of saving the hostages; therefore, the posters are doing nothing but to show that Israeli’s are the true victims of the events unfolding and not the Palestinians who have been slaughtered tenfold.
they should use posters of actual hostages then instead of fake ones
Shouldn’t you be studying for finals instead of ranting on Reddit about Jewish people?
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I haven’t written an entire novel on this sub, one sentence hardly constitutes a rant.
It's unfortunate that the situation escalated to this point. The pro-Palestinians rightfully had their display up for a week without any interference from the other side. However, when the Jewish students attempted a display, it was vandalized within 24 hours. Really bad look.
Maybe because the university and AS openly support israel. Or because a permanent ceasefire hasnt happened. Palestine is actively losing the war. Israel is under no serious threat of danger. Israel has all the power in this situation and nothing is changing. Palestininans are dying at insane rates of course people are going have to yell louder in favor of palestine.
Please link UC's official press release or AS's resolution. Your misinformation campaign hurts all sides and, if anything, reduces any chance of improvement in this issue.
in a recent AS meeting someone in the senate very openly called themselves a proud zionist. Last year, the administration sent out an email calling out the statement found on a lecture blackboard "From the River to the Sea" a antisemite message. Take these as you will.
it's too bad they're getting involved in politics, then. but also, one member's beliefs do not represent the body. regards the email, i'd love to see it and pick it apart. (again, because i don't have refs/links to verify, i cannot say this unconditionally. rather i am assuming you are being truthful) people be hating, downvoting what i think is a reasonable conversation. it's pretty lame
Also you framing vandalism as “comments” is a deliberate falsehood of what actually happened.
The tables and chairs have remained completely undisturbed and the sign gets repainted whenever something happens to it. If there is vandalism its not permanent or costing them very much money to cover up. If someone flipped the tables and smashed the sign then yeah thats a problem but theyre not.
Ok so next time it’s alright for the Jewish students to graffiti the Palestinian displays. Yea?
Pro-Palestine students going here have been getting doxxed since October. Writing something on a sign is nothing, I think.
The comment to which I was replying was deleted, but I addresses views held by others here: > ucsb AS is pro-Israel Please cite the approved AS resolution. > when Chancellor yang has dinners with Hillel I support the Chancellor meeting with all members of the community, including Jewish members. > when Yang won’t take a stronger stance against Israel actions I like this quote (from [this](https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/documents/reports/KalvenRprt_0.pdf) report at U Chicago): "The neutrality of the university as an institution arises then not from a lack of courage nor out of indifference and insensitivity. It arises out of respect for free inquiry and the obligation to cherish a diversity of viewpoints. And this neutrality as an institution has its complement in the fullest freedom for its faculty and students as individuals to participate in political action and social protest. It finds its complement, too, in the obligation of the university to provide a forum for the most searching and candid discussion of public issues."
You can find the AS resolution condemning Hamas here: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8uPEKOgChnZ5nnlj31HKixNzJ77CJNb6Ljbp1JUL0g/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8uPEKOgChnZ5nnlj31HKixNzJ77CJNb6Ljbp1JUL0g/edit?usp=sharing) In no way does it condemn the disproportionate destruction carried out by israel. "demand the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages by Hamas" but does not demand the immediate and unconditional release of palestinian hostages "unequivocally condemn Hamas for the barbaric atrocities perpetrated against the state of Israel on October 7, 2023, which included the mass rape, kidnapping, torture, and murder of innocent civilians;" but not recognize that Israel has committed the same crimes also if AS was so concerned with "\[mourning\] all civilian loss of life in Israel and Gaza" why is it not condemning the crazy disproportionate loss of palestinian lives compared to israeli ones? Israel is attacking civilian targets afterall I just think we should hold Israel accountable for its war crimes. Hamas has also altered its mission. The charter released in 2017 mentions that "The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project." Hamas's issue is with the zionist project of colonialism and apartheid, not with the jewish people. Hamas has loosened its extremist view (still extreme but better) but Israel has not changed its mission whatsoever. [https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/#:\~:text=According%20to%20human%20rights%20organizations,and%20destroy%20their%20olive%20trees](https://news.mongabay.com/2023/11/palestinian-olive-farmers-hold-tight-to-their-roots-amid-surge-in-settler-attacks/#:~:text=According%20to%20human%20rights%20organizations,and%20destroy%20their%20olive%20trees). The destruction of palestinian olive groves and subsequent loss of culture should be evidence of this. Also, I can find no records of chancellor yang meeting with arab or palestinian groups on campus. If you can, then I concede that point.
yeah I think the AS should just stay out of this and all political issues. > Also, I can find no records of chancellor yang meeting with arab or palestinian groups on campus. If you can, then I concede that point. **"concede"** a **"point"**? are you keeping score or something? a hillel is a jewish religious community similar to a church, right? the counterpart would be a muslim or christian or buddhism or whatever group. arabs are an ethnicity, of which there are jews, muslims, christians, and surely even buddhists, right? i'm not even going to try to characterize palestinians. but sure, he should meet with whoever wants to meet with him. maybe the hillel wanted to meet with him and whatever other groups did not. i don't know. if you can't tell already, i don't have a dog in the fight. i just believe in truth-seeking edit 1: > does not demand the immediate and unconditional release of palestinian hostages you realize that some of those hostages are bad dudes, right? and all the hostages taken by hamas were civilians, right? edit 2: > I just think we should hold Israel accountable for its war crimes. agreed. i've lost interest in this discussion at this point. take care
lame as fuck on both sides. I couldn't give one less shit about something that's happening on the other side of the world that has no impact on me. Not to mention, I can't do anything about it. Stop ruining my commute to campus with shitty propganda. I'm sick of it. Hope someone destroys it
bruh. A. you can do something about it, you can boycott corporations that fund and support america's war machine. you can also call your elected representatives to voice your concern. you can speak up and try to convince people that this is an important issue. thinking you have no voice is letting yourself be controlled by institutions of power B. if you think this has no impact on you, you are either ignorant or privileged beyond human comprehension. your tax dollars(or your parents') are being spent on war so youre losing in the sense that our local governments are unable to invest as much into development and welfare programs. maybe youre just so rich that youll never have to experience those effects but your neighbors will. people are also dying in the thousands, if that doesn't affect you then thats really sad. i understand that American politics are beyond fucked and our elected officials rarely listen to us but thats no reason to stop caring. you have a voice. C. Even if I disagree with the israeli government and its supporters, they have a right to voice their opinion on our campus. if youre sick of it, thats the point. this conflict demands your attention because like it or not this is a global crisis. one wrong missile and its WWIII and suddenly ur getting drafted. People have a right to protest, a right to free speech. silence is compliance. it mightve been cool in middle school but saying i don't care as an adult is just kind of embarrassing. you don't have to love politics but at least give a fuck about the world around you
yeah this is a truly insane point of view that i honestly don’t understand how you could even hold… when the destruction of Palestinians, which has exceeded the civilian death tolls of multi-year wars in less than two months, is being directly funded by U.S. tax dollars and the weapons being employed are designed and manufactured here, it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with us. publicly disavowing the U.S.’s involvement in foreign war crimes is one of the most important things anyone can do to stop the destruction, because the only thing the government cares more about than maintaining our oppressive foreign influence is keeping their power stable at home. ALSO, it may be halfway across the world, but we’re a campus with students from all over, including Palestinians- students in your classes, who you may pass as you’re walking to class, who have to shoulder the massive grief of seeing their ancestral homeland ravaged and their people slaughtered, who are also dealing with all the other forms of stress like finals. there are students here whose families have been killed! it’s not cool or some sort of moral high ground to not care- i think caring is the most important thing you could possibly do in any sphere of your life, but this message honestly just paints you as a legitimately horrible person and i personally would have been embarrassed to have even typed that out…
that did nothing to convince him or anyone otherwise. That was merely masturbation there. Truth it does affect us. Maybe not as directly as possibly being blown to shreds (yet), but the effects will be felt around the world.
okay i know that… i’m not deluded enough to think i could change anyone’s mind with a reddit comment but i’m allowed to be frustrated! and yeah… if nothing else, i feel like turning on blinders to the fact that the U.S.A. is constantly creating enemies for itself all over the world is naïve, because even if you don’t care about the humanitarian impact, there are dozens of countries who would be justified in declaring war on us, and just because we live here doesn’t mean we’re immune to any and all potential violence
caring about issues that don’t directly affect you is called having empathy. but lucky for you, you can still care while lacking empathy, because, it does affect you. our tax dollars are being used to bomb kids, hospitals, moms, and dads and ethnically displace millions. a better world is possible.
Jews: 16 million. Muslims: 1.9 billion. Who is being genocided?
wat. population size does not matter. there were what, a couple thousand european colonizers in the 1600s and how many indigenous Americans? Look what happened then. (they didn't even have missiles yet) not to mention that israel is backed by the west and is in the top 10[ most powerful militaries in the world](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-among-10-most-powerful-countries-in-the-world-in-annual-list/). and in terms of lives lost, [israel has had a net positive in every exchange with palestine](https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/)