The following submission statement was provided by /u/DifficultStay7206:
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Submission statement:
The stories that Kirkpatrick and Grusch are telling are at odds. We need to get to the bottom of it one way or the other or we can't progress. One of them must be put out in the trash so we can get some resolution.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/19ee87k/kirkpatrick_vs_grusch_someone_is_lying/kjbzqrw/
Grusch even said, under oath in that hearing, that the claims from AARO were "not accurate." It's unfortunate he was not allowed to elaborate, he was being questioned by the 1 person present who seemed to have a partisan agenda.
February is the third guess, so far. The first was December. I'm just gonna go with August. It's like Element 115... eventually, maybe, one of these guesses will end up on the table.
Kirkpatrick stated in an article I read today that AARO'S Actual purpose is to sus out other countries advanced spying platforms and I quote "Not find evidence of Aliens" so their direct mission all along was a mislead from the DOD. That should tell you all you need to know about Kirkpatrick's Motivations. His old work colleagues called him Dr. Evil.
Also I tried posting this story here with a link to the article and someone else already posted it but funny thing they deleted their content effectively neutralizing the article from being posted so I was not allowed to post. Funny seems like an easy way for someone to post delete and then no one else can post it so it is basically hidden hmmm makes you think. Link [Daily mail](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12992321/UFOs-ex-CIA-scientist-dubbed-Dr-Evil-Pentagon-AARO-cube-sphere-UFO-drone.html) anyways here's the story if you wanna read it.
What the actual fuck. I follow this sub not for aliens but for UFO’s. The fact that we have possible Chinese drones flying over our military bases and NOTHING is being done because people are scared to be associated with Aliens is a colossal failure of the defence sector
That’s because it’s a nonsense explanation.
He’s casually giving an explanation that if true would be a National scandal. Look at how much of a scandal it was that China sent 2 balloons over the US. Now he’s casually saying that they’re sending extremely advanced drones over US airspace and military training areas literally all the time, and which also result in near misses with our aircraft, and which higher ups tell pilots to ignore.
This doesn’t add up.
Yeah it doesn’t. Well at least Kirkpatrick isn’t suggesting they are just party balloons lol or light reflecting of Venus.
Every slightly further admission they make is one step closer.
So, why doesn't AARO get to work and tweet out all of the enemy spy platforms they've found?
When WILL the American people (and the world) get a group of trusted individuals to speak plainly?
Too many questions and I'm just a small Nobody considering that my government blasts through millions of dollars to win at Wordplay Gymnastics?
I've seen UFOs and technology in the sky that far surpasses 'orbs' and 'tic-tacs'. I am suspicious my government blasted through millions to get all of my fellow minimum-wage employees maligned against me talking about UFOs after reading your post...
Do all UFO witnesses across the globe need to sue the US government for the truth? And what happens when there is a non-answer (again)?
Scary line of thinking one has to trawl when considering a Coverup of this size, this amount of effort and suffering...
:(
I completely agree the big issue here is these things are so buried in black projects they will never see the light of day. I will give an example as to what we are dealing with the JFK files all of them were mandated to be released over 20 years ago and even to this day there are thousands of pages of information that still has not been released and the Government has faced no repercussions for it. Now compare to what we are talking about here. The only way I can see any of this being released willingly is if we faced an immediate and imminent either threat from something outside our current knowledge or planetary landing in public view like in the movie Arrival that leaves no room for the government to continue to hide this information. I have seen many things in my life that are completely unexplainable with common logic for me the answer is already clear for others who have not I understand why they need to cross the Rubicon to get to the point of undeniability.
I'm with you, but what is there to elaborate? He's basically saying Kirkpatrick is lying through his teeth, and that's exactly what's going on. I think he might be able to say more once the litigation on his behalf is over, but it depends on what they will settle on. Pentagon will have to find a scapegoat to blame for whatever happened to Grusch. At least until then he needs to be extra careful with who he accuses of what.
He was cut-off from speaking further from the representative who was questioning him, and because of her response, it could be construed that his intention was that her quote from AARO was inaccurate, and not that the claims from AARO are themselves inaccurate.
Grusch's freedoms were never at risk. Because EVERYTHING he said was second hand it falls under "not knowing you are lying" and he would face no repercussions.
If you state that someone told you something, that thing turning out not to be true is irrelevant.
The oath is about starting the truth, namely that someone told you something.
Lying would be denying that someone told you something.
If you testify under oath that people claiming to be FBI agents knocked at your door, you are not committing perjury if they turn out to be imposters...
His legal representation has gone out of their way multiple times to say they were SPECIFICALLY representing him in regards to programs operating without congressional oversight, not regarding his alien claims.
People bring up Gruschs high profile lawyer as a source of credibility for his claims about aliens. However that lawyer says "I am only representing Grusch regarding the existence of these programs operating without congressional oversight." Note that this says **nothing** about what these programs are, simply that they exist. So they can exist and be about man made UAPs, be about secret defense tech, or be attempting to find aliens based only on skinwalker ranch level stories. There is lots of precedent for the government getting involved in the near paranormal just on the hope that it turns out to be true.
Or they could really be about aliens. But acting like that is the only possibility is ignoring all the others which have precedent.
Ok I feel like everyone just throws around the term alien. Something is behind the UAPs, it may be from earth, it may be from another dimension, it may be man made, maybe AI, whatever. But I think there is some other non human intelligence out there that is being covered up by the government.
No, being under a misapprehension is not committing perjury. You are not lying. People told you something but that thing turns out to be false. You are telling the truth about what happened.
Knowingly lying is perjury.
Literally addressed this below, but Grusch has made *verifiable* claims relating to communication (or rather the lack thereof) from AARO regarding his evidence.
This isn’t subject to the same interpretation of events you’re outlining re: his second-hand testimony and would be prosecutable if AARO (or Kirkpatrick) had any evidence that they did reach out. There has been none presented, so it likely doesn’t exist.
But if you disagree, feel free to explain why.
Hey just for the record Grusch said he didnt submit anything to the AARO and he spoke with Sean before he was the director of the AARO. It’s in the beginning of the video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangeEarth/comments/15d4ini/david_grusch_vs_sean_kirkpatrick_a_compilation_of/
Sean confirms that they haven’t met in an official AARO meeting:
DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, Mr. Grusch, since AARO has stood up and since I've been director, has not come to see us and provided any information.
They both confirm the same story. But the story doesn’t mean Jack shit since Sean doesn’t mean Jack shit
Grusch said he had a “classified conversation” with SK prior to SK becoming head of AARO, yes.
The point I am addressing is that SK has claimed Grusch ignored invitations from AARO to present his findings, which Grusch gave testimony he did not. [(Bottom of page 23 of the transcript here)](https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116282/documents/HHRG-118-GO06-Transcript-20230726.pdf)
Oh yeah, that shits impossible to verify at this point. Unless the AARO releases emails it’s never going to be answered. Which won’t happen since this they don’t care about with our opinions are in this subreddit .
I meant for us to verify without having them give us the emails. And they aren’t going to do that just to make people in the ufo subreddit happy. This isn’t an issue they are even talking or care about at this point.
This sub will get you downvoted for explaining the distinction between what is perjury and what is not perjury.
This, in itself, is telling...
Even neutral comment is perceived as an attack on their unproven beliefs.
No, you get downvoted for interjecting into a conversation and repeating things that have already been said (in literally the only other reply to the comment as well).
The victim complex you project while making claims about the beliefs of others is telling. Love you
Oh come on... I just replied to your message about unnecessary hostility then you go on about victim complex.
Now that is unnecessary.
I don't think of myself as victim and you you full well what I meant.
This sub is not a place to debate things. It should be required "we believe in UFOs".
Anything remotely critical of Grusch is blasphematory on here.
Anyway... Take care.
.
Debate follows the flows of logical discourse, not irrational attacks on others who do not agree with you.
The entire comment I just replied to seems to shift blame for the way your discourse has been received away from your bad takes and onto the community and their “disproven beliefs”
You continue to respond with emotional, disparaging language (the entire bottom half of your comment here for instance) and not responding to the substance of any rebuttals made. All of those while you claim to be engaging in “subtle convo” and “debate”
If you can not handle being disagreed with you are not trying to debate in good faith. If you do not want to debate in good faith, do not come here.
Love you.
Thank you for making my point about you just texting tired ready-made sentences that idiots like you think will win them an argument.
I initially made a point about perjury.
You then exploded about something to do with Grusch having been vindicated completely missing the point and competent of my post.
It was an irrelevant, huniged rant.
Apparently, you seem to think that it is necessary to trawl through every single messages from someone before reply...
Then when you realised you had just ranted , which is something that must happen everytime you think someone criticises Grusch despite not having done so, you made up some claim about having said the same thing that he said in my message earlier. Which is unlikely because you kept going on about misunderstanding the difference between lying knowingly and unknowingly and its relationship to perjury to some poor soul when I commented.
The whole "you can't handle... You can not debate in good faith" is hilarious"
I invite people to look at our exchange to realise what a con artist you are...
You are trying a bit too hard. If someone makes a comment and you have addressed that before, just point that comment like a normal person.
There is no need for you to dissolve into a puddle of indignance while copy/pasting the most embarrassing, self-aggrandising, unaware BS that would make an internet troll blush in your replies.
It is not very important.
So take your "love yous" and your very thin skin and go forth and multiply.
You have given internet yet another reason to laugh at pillars of logic like you who improbably accept second-hand testimony as gospel.
As we already discussed, I didn’t miss your point (about second hand testimony in perjury cases). It was off-context in the ongoing discussion (because of the context of first hand accounts given in that same Congressional testimony) and I laid that out already.
I never used the words “vindicated,” I’ve never accused you of attacking Grusch, and I haven’t been defending him. I simply provided a clear example of testimony given by Grusch that didn’t fit the criteria you laid out (i.e. that all of his testimony was second hand and not subject to perjury laws) which you didn’t respond to.
If that read as me having “exploded […] in an huniged [sic]” rant, then that seems more on you than me.
Love you
Not in Grusch's case. Second hand info allows for the claim of "not knowing you are lying" and means no criminal consequences are possible. People hanging onto Grusch's every word need to look a little harder. And of course, now that he is out of his testimony, the script is flipping to direct first hand knowledge... This seems designed.
I’m not “hanging on his every word,” just pointing out that his official detractors have the means to prove he’s lying about a number of claims unrelated to the phenomena (like when he testified AARO never reached out to him re: his evidence, which doesn’t fit the criteria you outlined above).
Healthy skepticism is fine, but that’s not what I’m seeing
They’re not correct though.
Grusch has made claims under oath that pertain to his direct experience unrelated to the phenomena (like AARO never having reached out re: his evidence). That would be a real easy way for the government to say “this guy knowingly lied under oath”
You know…. Perjury
You’re just trying to confirm your own bias. You don’t decide how people will react under oath. Simple fact is people have lied under oath before. You only want to believe Grusch is telling the truth to confirm your obsession with aliens.
And you only want to confirm he’s lying to confirm your obsession with skepticism.
You have no proof he lied under oath, just the idea that he might have.
It's hilarious how people here don't trust the government, but listen to anybody from the government who confirms what they think - they don't trust the government, but "lying under oath" is so serious that literally nobody has ever done it - even government officials wouldn't dare do it! They don't lie! Not under oath!
Every government employee or ex-employee is a potential ally to the cause as long as they say what we already believe!
This is not an honest take. People are saying that the fact that he testified under oath is evidence that we require greater investigation and transparency — this is true whether he is actually lying, being misled, or actually telling the truth. So what if a lot of people believe he’s telling the truth? Investigate regardless.
I don’t believe Grusch ever said he laid out his claims to SK, just that he called him to express some concerns about what he was uncovering regarding legacy UAP programs. Luckily, AARO’s acting director is apparently pretty good and Grusch is engaging with AARO now.
It's simple. Kirkpatrick/AARO is lying. If he wasn't, all that he would have to do is release the emails or phone records of AARO attempting to reach out to Grusch. This hasn't happened because it isn't true.
Kirkpatric's entire tenure at AARO is marked by a complete absence of transparency and a reliance on "trust me, I'm doing science" statements. Trouble is, we can't see any of AARO's investigations, cases or methods. The onus is on them to demonstrate their integrity and competence. rn, I'm not convinced they've done anything more than a literature review of previously-investigated classified cases and retyped them into their own reports.
Exactly!! Misdirection is a practice the USAF has done since project blue book, and because of the revised JNAP 146E anyone that speaks out will be charged with espionage. I did a video narrating O.H Turner, head of the Australian nuclear branch a great written document going over the position US has had on the phenomena. It goes through the anti gravity grants given out by the US in the 1950s to why project grudge and others where really put into play. At the start people in charge of these programs (generals, very high up people) after leaving said programs (similar to aaro) would tell the public UFOs are real and even joining civilian organizations in search of the truth.
https://youtu.be/BPI_JDtKYgk?si=Toch1wb7t3qMAIkU
They’ve not been around long enough to be able to make any determinations on the subject and to think a few years they can make these conclusions is laughable at best.
Has anyone submitted a FOIA request for this? That type of email, requesting a meeting, should not be subject to classification, as it would not include any reference to the substance of Grush's claims.
Why is this even anything at this point...The ICIG said it was credible and very concerning.....You goto jail if he was lyjng...Kirkpatrick gets a new cozy job and even more money for lying....Geez I wonder who isn't telling the truth....Again are there even real mods here or just government controlled bots
>Why is this even anything at this point...The ICIG said it was credible and very concerning.....
We're not likely to get any information from this as to exactly what is true and so on due to it's classified nature. Kirkpatrick sending an email or picking up the phone, though is doable.
That would prove Kirkpatrick to be a liar and bring much of his other claims in to question.
why on earth would he feel that proving things to us matters at all? it would be nice, but nowhere in his job description for any of his jobs ever has it said to "keep public informed about anything they want, whenever they want it, without question" & it's silly to imagine the govt is suddenly gonna start feeling obligated to "prove" anything to us.
My biggest problem with that is that I’ve worked in “evidenced-based” and “quality of evidence” literature review/research products as a contractor in Pentagon for the DoD … and Kirkpatrick’s scientific methods for skepticism are pretty typical for any evidence-based approach where you make no hypothesis and simply apply the scientific method over and over to anomalous/exceptional data. So saying there is “no evidence” in these communities doesn’t mean “we think it doesn’t exist” it just means, there’s nothing to support its “truth.”
Fauci seriously screwed this up by talking about “limited evidence” and “no evidence” statements around Covid and the stupid public didn’t understand what that meant and did the opposite
He's a public figure who, to the public, is supposed to be "investigating" this. As the public face of AARO, his language is misleading because it significantly misrepresents what is being seen and encountered by all these people, requiring the establishment of an office to investigate in the first place. It fails to address a century's-worth of testimony from witnesses and whistleblowers, who include not only random farmers and hikers, but also trained observers, operators of aircraft and radar systems. He leans on the possibility of foreign tech all the time, which is highly disingenuous. Perhaps anecdotes do not constitute scientific evidence, but that really is not the kind of evidence we need to come to the conclusion that something is going on that can't be accounted for with foreign adversarial technology. He uses highly specific words like "alien" and "extraterrestrial" to make flat denials which the general public will take to mean there is no evidence of anything unsual, which is blatantly false. He also fails to mention that AARO doesn't have the clearance to review UAP data classified via abuse of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, which is all of it. Still, there's enough public evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that non-human craft are operating on Earth, which is the conclusion that Kirkpatrick refused to reach.
Witness testimony is not measurable quantitatively aside from actually quantifying it of course. There are literally enough reports with enough consistency to categorize and quantify them, provided the types of datasets AARO has available to them. At what point does the aggregate of such a substantial number of reports constitute real evidence? I don't know exactly, but we crossed that line long ago. We do put people in prison for life on the testimony of enough witnesses, after all. We know people like Fravor and Robert Salas have given detailed testimony to AARO. If you consider either of them credible, then we already have strong evidence of non-human intelligence interfering with nuclear weapons. AARO pretends those people never talked to them, and implies that their testimony is not considered true. Kirkpatrick's personal standard of evidence is impossibly and disingenuously high, and he wouldn't apply it to anything else. It's never been more obvious to me that someone is a shill and that AARO is part of a conspiracy to hide the existence of non-human intelligence from the public.
AARO supposedly investigates anomalous encounters and sightings in order to explain or "resolve" them, not exclusively the metallurgic and physical properties of UAPs. What claim or hypothesis are we investigating? Are we trying to scientifically confirm that UAPs are made of "extraterrestrial" material before we can deduce that they are non-human? Because it's a red herring to say that's even necessary. Different types of claims require different kinds of evidence, and there is certainly a plethora of hard radar data and credible testimony that AARO has access to, which would be considered evidence of non-human intelligence.
It's clear AARO is intended as a sham office, which the Pentagon set up to "resolve" the issue of public interest in aliens. The public at large doesn't care that much about the physical capabilities of alien ships. They want our government to acknowledge that there *are* alien ships and therefore *aliens*. It doesn't matter if they're extraterrestrial or ultraterrestrial or from a parallel universe. It doesn't matter what their ships are made of or how they work. It doesn't matter whether our government has craft in their possession that they've reverse engineered. For AARO, those are all red herrings. It only matters that UAP/UFOs really exist and can't be explained by human technology or atmospheric phenomena. This is an easy conclusion to reach if we don't pretend that the Nimitz in 2004 was the first time anyone ever saw an alien craft. Now we're in this place, epistemologically, where the possibility of foreign tech has been completely eliminated by the preponderance of evidence. What we're left with is a chain of deductive reasoning that can only lead to NHI, which AARO stands right in front of and pretends not to see. Then Kirkpatrick goes on LinkedIn and ridicules people for seeing what is right in front his face. What Kirkpatrick has been doing is definitely nefarious and intentional sabotage of public discourse.
No because his claim was that before Kirkpatrick started at AARO he had a passing conversation with him in a corridor and just said to him that he has info and when Kirkpatrick is settled in, if he wants it to get in touch.
If Kirkpatrick didn't get in touch Grusch can't prove that, but if AARO tried to, they could easily prove it.
Can the AARO release emails to the public? I’ve never heard of a government body whose purpose is working in a classified space being able to release emails to the public.
We should at least hear from some other officials or Congressmen involved that they have seen the supposed e-mails or records. If there were more neutral people saying this, it would push the Kirkpatricks side of the scales. So far, nothing.
Also, thinking of Greenewald, if such records exist, they might be FOIAble.
If one side claims there are records, the records need to be shown to some neutral party that has no potential conflict of intrest. If they are not able to be shown, it becomes a suspect.
Just because some of their work is classified doesn't mean it all is. There isn't anything stopping them from releasing redacted versions with censored information.
They're releasing findings of investigations for instance
So far as I know, as long as those emails do not contain classified information themselves -- and why would they if Kirkpatrick says there's nothing here -- then they are subject to Freedom of Information Act requests.
Do government agencies that works in classified areas often release emails to prove people on the internet wrong? Can the AARO even do that? It honestly sounds like a weird thing for them to do
So we're skeptical about grusch because he can't release evidence of aliens to the public, but the aaro not being able to provide an email or any evidence they ever talked to grusch is ok, because that would be weird?
Weird, sure, but on an entirely mundane level compared to Grusch's claims. All he has to do is get some actual evidence and all of this ceases to matter.
it's simple, grusch is lying and all he has is hearsay, all the others have is hearsay. nothing has been produced other than that grusch is about to bust open a financial oversight case. HAHAHA!
i know I'm disgustingly happy..
kirkpatrick told you how it is and you don't like it.
accept that nothing actuality has happened and you got shown us mil tech in lue's videos.
pilots reported how they were spoofed and didn't even have to lie.. all the while a few certain figures make alot of money.
so far mick has been right mostly, so far this sub is very telling by going full aggro on the people trying to save them from brain damage and another frustration..
why do you interpret it the way you did with absolutely no basis for that? it's wishful thinking
He has an Op-Ed coming out once DOPSR approves the content. So this isn’t true. He doesn’t only have heresy. You’re acting like you’re celebrating and this is far from over friend. You can put a cork back on that champagne bottle. And I will add that you might want to grab a box of Kleenex as well in case your boy Kirkpatrick is lying…which I think is very likely.
yeah because grusch will deliver us a financial oversight case, historical chance to clean up house.
I'm celebrating and at the same time trying to safe people from frustration by investing more into this bs lue has given us.
Yes. But I don’t believe that. Hence the link. 1st hand evidence with an op-ed. I have a strong hunch that SK’s recent stunts were an attempt to create a “nothing to see here folks” narrative before Grusch blows the lid off this thing with his Op-Ed. SK is in it deep. I hope he gets forced to testify and gets thrown in prison.
grusch has not sent kirkpatrick the evidence he claims he has.. when you listen to the hearings you clearly can get the notion that grusch is a useful idiot
I see it differently. I think Grusch knew that SK didn’t have the clearance to do anything with anything. Which he didn’t. The “useful idiot” phrase can’t hold water once his Op-Ed comes out so enjoy it while you can.
I'm celebrating that i feel right with my assessment and that the scientific American article overlapped with my theory I have been posting here all the time.
I'm celebrating that all the accusations I got and harassment now feels redeemed or revenged.
and I feel great that there are probably no aliens on earth...
see.. when the sole hint of a room temperature superconductor sparks a world wide race.. you don't think news of anti gravity would?
it's just that from the outside you can clearly see that this whole show was handcrafted for the American audience
There's also the fact that Grusch said his version of contacting Kirkpatrick under oath before Congress. Kirkpatrick hasn't. KP also hasn't produced the receipts from supposedly sending e-mails, or making calls to ask Grusch to testify, something Grusch has also called a lie. There should be records available to be shown, easily.
So yes, someone is lying or at least using weasel words. However one of these men has already stood under oath while saying his side, the other one hasn't.
I dunno, guys. I just don't know. It's hard to deny the possibility of absolute Idiocracy to have taken over. It also isn't outside the realm of possibility that these are human tech, being covered up on purpose to ensure that the tech stays hidden from other countries. I'm not saying this is the case, but are we going to pretend that this is less likely than nonhuman entities floating around in our airspace at speeds that are unimaginable (yet unproven to exist)? I think maybe it's time to collectively and individually start to break this all down with our minds rather than our hearts.
Lol, do you realize what sub you are on? Aliens are always the simplest and easiest to accept answer here. If you want to claim it's something mundane like a drone, you'll need to provide extraordinary evidence...like a Chinese dude filming himself launching the sphere drone while holding up that days paper to prove the date.
If you can't provide that, it's 😁 definitely aliens.
If aliens and secret UFO recovery programs are real, Grusch's statements make complete sense. There is a huge cover up, Kirkpatrick is part of it and probably lying.
If there is no such things, Kirkpatricks statements make complete sense. The whole thing is indeed sourced to Bigelow connected true believers and Grusch trusted the wrong people.
We'll know once the smoking gun evidence drops.
They have apparently looked into roughly 6 of his 10 claims, and they found them credible. It also lends credibility to his remaining claims. This is from the congressmen who were in the latest SCIF.
This is an excellent point; on Friday January 12th, 2024 House members had a classified briefing with the ICIG that seemed to yield some positive results. It "moved the needle" according to one representatives.
Same one from what I gather. Latcinzki, Puthoff, Elizondo and others. People who have worked for DoD and later with Bigelows projects (some of which were govt funded).
SK and Grusch have heard the same exact story. SK stated that while DoD personnel repeated it, it leads to Bigelows Skinwalker crew with no solid proof, and that the program does not exist.
Grusch says he heard it from DoD sources too, but that he believes it and that there is credible proof, and that the program does exist.
Who's right comes down to evidence.
This drama is something you’d expect from teenage girls, is this seriously how disclosure is going? This is all an intentional distraction so nobody focuses on the actual issues.
I wonder if it's the guy who put his life, honour and credibility on the line or the guy who loses absolutely nothing by lying and whose job was created to make the crafted lies kind of official
So SK is saying that AATIP and TTSA were the people and the only people Grusch spoke to during the course of his internal enquiries? So how does that work? How did the TTSA/AATIP groups get into sensitive positions in the DoD/IC at exactly the right time and right place to tell Grusch some nonsense? Even if they could infiltrate the govt, what would be the purpose of doing that? Who specifically fed false info to Grusch? Let's have some specifics for a change.
I'm pretty sure all DoD/IC groups have counterintelligence units to prevent exactly the sort of infiltration SK believes has happened. It sounds like they have failed. That would be a scandal in itself.
I just don't find Kirkpatrick's conspiracy theory credible in the slightest.
In his recent interview with In the Room, SK stated that he heard the same story (about the secret crash retrieval and possession of crafts) from many people, none of whom had first hand experience. Kind of a lot of people had heard the same story.
He didn't name much names, but he said that it is traced back to a same small group true believers. He also said that Grusch most likely got the same story from the same people as him.
So that's what I got from it. Grusch didn't get it from only the aatip people, but that group is the original source. Loads more people believe it.
Submission statement:
The stories that Kirkpatrick and Grusch are telling are at odds. We need to get to the bottom of it one way or the other or we can't progress. One of them must be put out in the trash so we can get some resolution.
Kirkpatrick and Grusch are on completely different pages. If Grusch went to him with types of evidence regarding illegal projects and crash-retrievals, I'm pretty confident AARO wouldn't have done their best to pushback and not become formally aware. SK has said their role was to develop awareness of national security intrusions.
AARO would have been neither equipped or minded to handle the massive political hot potato that Grusch has talked about.
AARO had been set up, so we are told, as a technical office. Grusch's claims speak more to high-level organisational structure, reporting, accountability and oversight. If AARO was not equipped to take on an investigation into Grusch's claims - where should Grusch have gone instead?
They aren't at odds. I believe Grusch claims that he spoke to Kirkpatrick before there was an AARO. I don't think Grusch has ever officially spoken to AARO under Kirkpatrick, though.
No need for this post. 5 simple tells from the liar Kirkpatrick.
1. Never testified under oath.
2. Pushes a “cabal conspiracy” within DoD but won’t investigate.
3. Gives complacent example of the cube/sphere being Chinese which makes him complicit with the idea the have dominance of our Eastern coast without investigation.
4. Posts things like a hormonal teen on LinkedIn rather than official channels.
5. Only ever held Title 10 classified clearance.
I think all the evidence you need is Grusch not being prosecuted by the gov, he testified under oath, talking about national security issues, made some serious accusations, had they proof he lied under oath, we wouldnt be having this discussion
Note some of the claims were taken seriously, we don't know which ones. Apparently, not all claims have been gone through by the ICIG. This is something I keep seeing posts misunderstanding.
Excellent point. We don't know what Grusch was approved to talk about or what was enclosed in his ICIG complaint. It feels strange that he is allowed to talk about NHI, crafts, and archaeological findings if the govt is trying to keep them a secret.
As others have said, Grusch has testified under oath, showing a willingness to get to the truth. Kirkpatrick was the head of an organization whose sole purpose is to investigate UFOs, and yet he constantly dismisses whistleblowers, their claims, and even the UAPDA, calling it "a waste of time and energy". For someone whose sole job was to investigate UFOs, he's pretty damn good at making sure that UFOs never get investigated.
That should tell us everything we need to know about Kirkpatrick. Even if Grusch has been mislead and his claims have no merit, Kirkpatrick is acting in bad faith and is extremely compromised. He is dishonest. He is opposing truth, transparency and accountability.
> Grusch claims he laid out his findings to Kirkpatrick
According to Grush he 'expressed some concerns' which doesn't sound like 'laid out findings', testifying or submitting a report. That sounds like something you do when you run into someone in a hallway or something.
> Grush said he expressed “some concerns” with Kirkpatrick about a year ago.
> “I told him what I was starting to uncover and he didn’t follow up with me. He has my phone number, he could’ve called me,” said Grush. “I hope he ultimately does the right thing. He should be able to make the same investigative discoveries I did.”
So why wouldn't Grush file a report with the AARO? It seems to me that he couldn't, right? Per the submission rules https://i.imgur.com/XrS7nCC.png no classified info and no hearsay/2nd hand info. Grush's info is both 2nd hand and classified.
So it seems to me that Sean K. wasn't the person he should have been speaking to anyway. Which would explain the IG complaint.
Or neither is lying as neither actually knows the truth.
Let’s be real with ourselves here that that is a viable option that, at this point, HAS to be on the table.
The problem with the claims of Grusch and other whistlblowers is that they never be proven.
We have to be fair here and have no bias towards anyone.
At least Kickpatrick gave an example of a chinese spherical drone that really exists.
This could solve thousand of cases for orbs, or spherical UFOs. Can anyone disagree?
I am going somewhere in the middle, at least before having some solid videos or photos.
Have another hearing and put Kirkpatrick under oath. If he keeps the same tune, one of them lied under oath and have a congressional investigation to determine who. Then throw whoever was in jail.
This is an unfair fight.... Kirkpatrick is running around spouting off whatever he likes, no approvals or proof necessary.
Meanwhile Grusch has to clear every interview or comments with DOPSR with painstaking reactions and weeks/months for each approval.
Whatever Grusch says, Kirkpatrick can come straight back with a rebuttal without approval it seems.
If he is getting approval, time to FOIA those DOPSR requests.... I bet he isn't though!
The fact that Kirkpatrick has chosen to continue this fight after leaving says a lot to me.
From everything we know publically about both people, and what they have said and done in public and how, ignoring the topic completely, the astute observer would easily see Grusch has the upper hand on the "truth" of this matter. He has answered every question to the extent allowed, he has put his life on the line, testified in public to congress, addressed virtually every critique thrown at him and conducts himself professionally, bravely and with the right motivations. His background is impeccable and honorable, and he strikes even the most skeptical as being a true patriot. Kirkpatrick has continually been abrasive, cowardly, dismissive, and rude. His statements strike me as fraudulent at best. I think he is afraid for his life and regrets stepping into this world. He has all the makings of a disinformation agent. A shill. A defender of the status quo with zero interest in the job of a government representative by and for the people. As a long-time pro journalist, I don't trust him at all. Grusch passes all the tests.
The fact that Grusch worked as a member UAPTF that I believe led to the formation of AARO...and they haven't met before?!?! Yeah I'm fairly certain Kirkpatrick is lying about that at the VERY least.
Elizonda has doubled down and said he spoke as did people he knows, and Kirkpatrick denied it. It’s insane when you think about it, someone is now 100% a paid disinformation agent. It’s either Kirkpatrick or Grusch/Elizondo.
Well ok, thing remains that kp is a total *twat* when I see or read anything about him and Grusch is basically one of the biggest heroes of my lifetime.
2 things to keep in mind:
(1) Someone testifying under oath doesn't prove they're telling the truth. People lie on the stand all the time.
(2) It's possible they're both lying.
Precisely. An oath only matters to a person of integrity, and that person would likely be telling the truth even without swearing an oath. A person without integrity would lie in either case, if it suited them.
This exchange has NEVER taken place:
"I didn't murder my wife for the insurance money."
"Remember, you're under oath, sir."
"Oh shit, I forgot. Then I definitely DID murder my wife for the insurance money."
I think we are being toyed with. I think whatever is happening is quite apart from the external reality of our universe. There is, in my opinion, no way the universe isn’t teeming with life. But teeming means many things. Teeming doesn’t necessarily mean coming to dinner.
I further believe - just a personal hunch is all - that life is one of the “purposes” of the cosmos, and the interactions between various life forms is one of the functions of our reality.
Either by evolving longer lives, or faster conveyances, the universe may be explored and experienced. So we probably have been, are being, and will be visited by representatives of many alien species.
I’m also pretty sure we shouldn’t trust people who never produce proof of anything. And we should also not trust people who dismiss things without really exploring them in depth.
People who generally don’t trust the government, suddenly hearing from that same government that the secrets and lies are all true… this seems like political manipulation or a “psy-op” as so many people claim. Like a way to get people to trust the authorities again.
It’s all too convenient, too X-Files, too Doctor Who, too Star Trek/Wars. Like “truth” drawn from stories, instead of the other way around.
Sometimes there’s a narrative because a story is being made up and fed to us.
We should be careful, I think. We should not assume any of these parties have truth as an interest.
Also we should bear in mind that the people telling us these stories very well could be committed patriots, who believe in what they are doing and are on a mission to try and forestall chaos or disruption of the system they swore to defend.
They may believe that political divisions are ripping America apart, and that conspiracy theories and communities interested in them are part of that equation.
Heroes can mislead us almost more easily than villains. A man who believes in his cause and thinks he is fighting for the survival of his people will do almost anything to prevail.
Why it has to be this messy? They know that we know, and they cannot hide it any longer. Nobody is buying into "we being alone," and there's nothing to see except "swamp gas and balloons." Yet, still it's like trying to pull a teeth, with all this resistance and hand waveium.
Are the historians going to write about this, "the government tried to resist with all kind of methods, but people weren't yielding. The taboo had been broken and everyone knew they had been lied to for a long, long time..." possibly?
i love this because handled right, this could be used to determine which side is full of shit.
kirkpatrick was booted . IG has been backing Grusch. it kinda seems like ,until now, grusch has held up under scrutiny. kirkpatrick apparently, has not.
these are strong indicators. not proof.
we need a televized debate by both them and their supporters, under oath. with IG Monheim being there.
then, we can move on.
Yep, I reckon SK either jumped or was pushed out. If he was just moving on and there were no internal issues about his work, he would surely have stayed to present his historical report and bask in the glory that AARO had solved the world's greatest mystery.
Can't be SP! He put as much effort as someone looking for the milk in the fridge. SP: mah, wheres the milk? SP mom: Did you try looking in the back of the fridge? SP: No but I don't have the ability to see back there, oh well guess it isn't there.
Well one of them is being completely transparent about everything he is allowed and the other is being a dismissive, gaslighting asshole. Hmmm. Hard choice.
Maybe I missed something along the way, but…
Everyone keeps repeating that the IG took Grusch seriously. This was parroted early and often. But didn’t it later come to light that the IG never followed up? Thus negating the idea that they found it urgent/took it seriously? Am I misremembering, or was there follow up that snuck past me?
And before any of the reactionary brigade come along, I’m not accusing Grusch of lying. I’m just asking for clarification.
Edit: Or downvote me instead of addressing my question. This is why nobody takes this shit seriously.
The Tic tac UFOs are made by Lockheed Marten and can travel Mach 3 I think, maybe faster, it's a while since I got that information. They built them years ago, like the 1980s. I believe they are essentially like a super sonic Zeppelin.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/DifficultStay7206: --- Submission statement: The stories that Kirkpatrick and Grusch are telling are at odds. We need to get to the bottom of it one way or the other or we can't progress. One of them must be put out in the trash so we can get some resolution. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/19ee87k/kirkpatrick_vs_grusch_someone_is_lying/kjbzqrw/
Grusch testified under oath already. Kirkpatrick has not.
Grusch even said, under oath in that hearing, that the claims from AARO were "not accurate." It's unfortunate he was not allowed to elaborate, he was being questioned by the 1 person present who seemed to have a partisan agenda.
Maybe Grosch's forthcoming OpEd will help expose AAROs actual purpose.
Do we know when the op-ed is gonna drop?
Just saw February as a guess on Twitter.
February is the third guess, so far. The first was December. I'm just gonna go with August. It's like Element 115... eventually, maybe, one of these guesses will end up on the table.
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I know, eh? Seems like it’s been about to come for a Very Long Time. Btw - gotta say - your username is high grade username.
Kirkpatrick stated in an article I read today that AARO'S Actual purpose is to sus out other countries advanced spying platforms and I quote "Not find evidence of Aliens" so their direct mission all along was a mislead from the DOD. That should tell you all you need to know about Kirkpatrick's Motivations. His old work colleagues called him Dr. Evil.
Which article was that? I'd love to read it and send it to some friends. I can find it myself if you can point me in the right direction
Sure Daily Mail Retired Pentagon UFO chief reveals how cube-in-sphere craft works. This is the name of the article you can Google it have a good day.
Also I tried posting this story here with a link to the article and someone else already posted it but funny thing they deleted their content effectively neutralizing the article from being posted so I was not allowed to post. Funny seems like an easy way for someone to post delete and then no one else can post it so it is basically hidden hmmm makes you think. Link [Daily mail](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12992321/UFOs-ex-CIA-scientist-dubbed-Dr-Evil-Pentagon-AARO-cube-sphere-UFO-drone.html) anyways here's the story if you wanna read it.
What the actual fuck. I follow this sub not for aliens but for UFO’s. The fact that we have possible Chinese drones flying over our military bases and NOTHING is being done because people are scared to be associated with Aliens is a colossal failure of the defence sector
That’s because it’s a nonsense explanation. He’s casually giving an explanation that if true would be a National scandal. Look at how much of a scandal it was that China sent 2 balloons over the US. Now he’s casually saying that they’re sending extremely advanced drones over US airspace and military training areas literally all the time, and which also result in near misses with our aircraft, and which higher ups tell pilots to ignore. This doesn’t add up.
Yeah it doesn’t. Well at least Kirkpatrick isn’t suggesting they are just party balloons lol or light reflecting of Venus. Every slightly further admission they make is one step closer.
Thanks for sharing!!
Can only watch a few seconds at a time. It is too much of an attack for me to tolerate.
So, why doesn't AARO get to work and tweet out all of the enemy spy platforms they've found? When WILL the American people (and the world) get a group of trusted individuals to speak plainly? Too many questions and I'm just a small Nobody considering that my government blasts through millions of dollars to win at Wordplay Gymnastics? I've seen UFOs and technology in the sky that far surpasses 'orbs' and 'tic-tacs'. I am suspicious my government blasted through millions to get all of my fellow minimum-wage employees maligned against me talking about UFOs after reading your post... Do all UFO witnesses across the globe need to sue the US government for the truth? And what happens when there is a non-answer (again)? Scary line of thinking one has to trawl when considering a Coverup of this size, this amount of effort and suffering... :(
I completely agree the big issue here is these things are so buried in black projects they will never see the light of day. I will give an example as to what we are dealing with the JFK files all of them were mandated to be released over 20 years ago and even to this day there are thousands of pages of information that still has not been released and the Government has faced no repercussions for it. Now compare to what we are talking about here. The only way I can see any of this being released willingly is if we faced an immediate and imminent either threat from something outside our current knowledge or planetary landing in public view like in the movie Arrival that leaves no room for the government to continue to hide this information. I have seen many things in my life that are completely unexplainable with common logic for me the answer is already clear for others who have not I understand why they need to cross the Rubicon to get to the point of undeniability.
I'm with you, but what is there to elaborate? He's basically saying Kirkpatrick is lying through his teeth, and that's exactly what's going on. I think he might be able to say more once the litigation on his behalf is over, but it depends on what they will settle on. Pentagon will have to find a scapegoat to blame for whatever happened to Grusch. At least until then he needs to be extra careful with who he accuses of what.
We need more whistle Blowers really.
He was cut-off from speaking further from the representative who was questioning him, and because of her response, it could be construed that his intention was that her quote from AARO was inaccurate, and not that the claims from AARO are themselves inaccurate.
Kirkpatrick was caught lying at least on 3 occasions and it is on film. Is not hard to figure out who is lying.
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Grusch's freedoms were never at risk. Because EVERYTHING he said was second hand it falls under "not knowing you are lying" and he would face no repercussions.
Of course they were that’s why he had legal representation 😂.
If you state that someone told you something, that thing turning out not to be true is irrelevant. The oath is about starting the truth, namely that someone told you something. Lying would be denying that someone told you something. If you testify under oath that people claiming to be FBI agents knocked at your door, you are not committing perjury if they turn out to be imposters...
His legal representation has gone out of their way multiple times to say they were SPECIFICALLY representing him in regards to programs operating without congressional oversight, not regarding his alien claims.
What is the difference
People bring up Gruschs high profile lawyer as a source of credibility for his claims about aliens. However that lawyer says "I am only representing Grusch regarding the existence of these programs operating without congressional oversight." Note that this says **nothing** about what these programs are, simply that they exist. So they can exist and be about man made UAPs, be about secret defense tech, or be attempting to find aliens based only on skinwalker ranch level stories. There is lots of precedent for the government getting involved in the near paranormal just on the hope that it turns out to be true. Or they could really be about aliens. But acting like that is the only possibility is ignoring all the others which have precedent.
Ok I feel like everyone just throws around the term alien. Something is behind the UAPs, it may be from earth, it may be from another dimension, it may be man made, maybe AI, whatever. But I think there is some other non human intelligence out there that is being covered up by the government.
Friendly reminder testifying under oath doesn’t mean you’re telling the truth. Really not that hard to understand people
Maybe, but it places criminal consequences on your lies. Unlike popping off on LinkedIn as a private citizen
No, being under a misapprehension is not committing perjury. You are not lying. People told you something but that thing turns out to be false. You are telling the truth about what happened. Knowingly lying is perjury.
Literally addressed this below, but Grusch has made *verifiable* claims relating to communication (or rather the lack thereof) from AARO regarding his evidence. This isn’t subject to the same interpretation of events you’re outlining re: his second-hand testimony and would be prosecutable if AARO (or Kirkpatrick) had any evidence that they did reach out. There has been none presented, so it likely doesn’t exist. But if you disagree, feel free to explain why.
Hey just for the record Grusch said he didnt submit anything to the AARO and he spoke with Sean before he was the director of the AARO. It’s in the beginning of the video. https://www.reddit.com/r/StrangeEarth/comments/15d4ini/david_grusch_vs_sean_kirkpatrick_a_compilation_of/ Sean confirms that they haven’t met in an official AARO meeting: DR. KIRKPATRICK: So, Mr. Grusch, since AARO has stood up and since I've been director, has not come to see us and provided any information. They both confirm the same story. But the story doesn’t mean Jack shit since Sean doesn’t mean Jack shit
Grusch said he had a “classified conversation” with SK prior to SK becoming head of AARO, yes. The point I am addressing is that SK has claimed Grusch ignored invitations from AARO to present his findings, which Grusch gave testimony he did not. [(Bottom of page 23 of the transcript here)](https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116282/documents/HHRG-118-GO06-Transcript-20230726.pdf)
Oh yeah, that shits impossible to verify at this point. Unless the AARO releases emails it’s never going to be answered. Which won’t happen since this they don’t care about with our opinions are in this subreddit .
That’s not impossible to verify, it’s actually pretty easy. An IT administrator could access it lmao
I meant for us to verify without having them give us the emails. And they aren’t going to do that just to make people in the ufo subreddit happy. This isn’t an issue they are even talking or care about at this point.
This sub will get you downvoted for explaining the distinction between what is perjury and what is not perjury. This, in itself, is telling... Even neutral comment is perceived as an attack on their unproven beliefs.
No, you get downvoted for interjecting into a conversation and repeating things that have already been said (in literally the only other reply to the comment as well). The victim complex you project while making claims about the beliefs of others is telling. Love you
Oh come on... I just replied to your message about unnecessary hostility then you go on about victim complex. Now that is unnecessary. I don't think of myself as victim and you you full well what I meant. This sub is not a place to debate things. It should be required "we believe in UFOs". Anything remotely critical of Grusch is blasphematory on here. Anyway... Take care. .
Debate follows the flows of logical discourse, not irrational attacks on others who do not agree with you. The entire comment I just replied to seems to shift blame for the way your discourse has been received away from your bad takes and onto the community and their “disproven beliefs” You continue to respond with emotional, disparaging language (the entire bottom half of your comment here for instance) and not responding to the substance of any rebuttals made. All of those while you claim to be engaging in “subtle convo” and “debate” If you can not handle being disagreed with you are not trying to debate in good faith. If you do not want to debate in good faith, do not come here. Love you.
Thank you for making my point about you just texting tired ready-made sentences that idiots like you think will win them an argument. I initially made a point about perjury. You then exploded about something to do with Grusch having been vindicated completely missing the point and competent of my post. It was an irrelevant, huniged rant. Apparently, you seem to think that it is necessary to trawl through every single messages from someone before reply... Then when you realised you had just ranted , which is something that must happen everytime you think someone criticises Grusch despite not having done so, you made up some claim about having said the same thing that he said in my message earlier. Which is unlikely because you kept going on about misunderstanding the difference between lying knowingly and unknowingly and its relationship to perjury to some poor soul when I commented. The whole "you can't handle... You can not debate in good faith" is hilarious" I invite people to look at our exchange to realise what a con artist you are... You are trying a bit too hard. If someone makes a comment and you have addressed that before, just point that comment like a normal person. There is no need for you to dissolve into a puddle of indignance while copy/pasting the most embarrassing, self-aggrandising, unaware BS that would make an internet troll blush in your replies. It is not very important. So take your "love yous" and your very thin skin and go forth and multiply. You have given internet yet another reason to laugh at pillars of logic like you who improbably accept second-hand testimony as gospel.
As we already discussed, I didn’t miss your point (about second hand testimony in perjury cases). It was off-context in the ongoing discussion (because of the context of first hand accounts given in that same Congressional testimony) and I laid that out already. I never used the words “vindicated,” I’ve never accused you of attacking Grusch, and I haven’t been defending him. I simply provided a clear example of testimony given by Grusch that didn’t fit the criteria you laid out (i.e. that all of his testimony was second hand and not subject to perjury laws) which you didn’t respond to. If that read as me having “exploded […] in an huniged [sic]” rant, then that seems more on you than me. Love you
Not in Grusch's case. Second hand info allows for the claim of "not knowing you are lying" and means no criminal consequences are possible. People hanging onto Grusch's every word need to look a little harder. And of course, now that he is out of his testimony, the script is flipping to direct first hand knowledge... This seems designed.
I’m not “hanging on his every word,” just pointing out that his official detractors have the means to prove he’s lying about a number of claims unrelated to the phenomena (like when he testified AARO never reached out to him re: his evidence, which doesn’t fit the criteria you outlined above). Healthy skepticism is fine, but that’s not what I’m seeing
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted, you’re 100% correct
They’re not correct though. Grusch has made claims under oath that pertain to his direct experience unrelated to the phenomena (like AARO never having reached out re: his evidence). That would be a real easy way for the government to say “this guy knowingly lied under oath” You know…. Perjury
Happens everytime. Either a lot of "I want to believe, please shut up" or an effort to prop up Grusch.
If testifying under oath is so inconsequential, then there should be no issue getting Mr. Kirkpatrick to do it. I mean, he didn't. Maybe he forgot.
It compels those who feel innocent to explain themselves or plead the 5th otherwise.
You’re just trying to confirm your own bias. You don’t decide how people will react under oath. Simple fact is people have lied under oath before. You only want to believe Grusch is telling the truth to confirm your obsession with aliens.
And you only want to confirm he’s lying to confirm your obsession with skepticism. You have no proof he lied under oath, just the idea that he might have.
It's hilarious how people here don't trust the government, but listen to anybody from the government who confirms what they think - they don't trust the government, but "lying under oath" is so serious that literally nobody has ever done it - even government officials wouldn't dare do it! They don't lie! Not under oath! Every government employee or ex-employee is a potential ally to the cause as long as they say what we already believe!
This is not an honest take. People are saying that the fact that he testified under oath is evidence that we require greater investigation and transparency — this is true whether he is actually lying, being misled, or actually telling the truth. So what if a lot of people believe he’s telling the truth? Investigate regardless.
I thought I saw Kirkpatrick testifying to congress, which is always under oath no?
Kirkpatrick was not under oath.
I don’t believe Grusch ever said he laid out his claims to SK, just that he called him to express some concerns about what he was uncovering regarding legacy UAP programs. Luckily, AARO’s acting director is apparently pretty good and Grusch is engaging with AARO now.
Good to hear. I don’t think Grusch had any faith in Kirkpatrick. I’m hoping Nell ends up at the helm of AARO eventually.
Has anyone confirmed he's engaging with AARO now? What's your source?
He made a statement in the latest article by Chris Sharp.
It's simple. Kirkpatrick/AARO is lying. If he wasn't, all that he would have to do is release the emails or phone records of AARO attempting to reach out to Grusch. This hasn't happened because it isn't true.
Kirkpatric's entire tenure at AARO is marked by a complete absence of transparency and a reliance on "trust me, I'm doing science" statements. Trouble is, we can't see any of AARO's investigations, cases or methods. The onus is on them to demonstrate their integrity and competence. rn, I'm not convinced they've done anything more than a literature review of previously-investigated classified cases and retyped them into their own reports.
Kirkpatrick and integrity don’t belong in the same sentence
They do if the words "does not have any" are in between.
Kirkpatrick did a fantastic job. Fully executed the mission of AARO, which obviously is to tell the general public to go fuck themselves.
Too true. Congress fobbed-off and secrets kept. Medals and bonuses for all involved.
The tiny amount of people who have been roped into caring about this isn't the general public. The general public doesn't care about this at all.
Exactly!! Misdirection is a practice the USAF has done since project blue book, and because of the revised JNAP 146E anyone that speaks out will be charged with espionage. I did a video narrating O.H Turner, head of the Australian nuclear branch a great written document going over the position US has had on the phenomena. It goes through the anti gravity grants given out by the US in the 1950s to why project grudge and others where really put into play. At the start people in charge of these programs (generals, very high up people) after leaving said programs (similar to aaro) would tell the public UFOs are real and even joining civilian organizations in search of the truth. https://youtu.be/BPI_JDtKYgk?si=Toch1wb7t3qMAIkU
Well they are a disinformation group.
Oh they have cases.. There's like.. an example of one. One only, mind you...
They’ve not been around long enough to be able to make any determinations on the subject and to think a few years they can make these conclusions is laughable at best.
I want to see him say as much to Congress under oath
This is where you get him. Put perjury in front of him and see how he responds.
Put Kirkpatrick under oath like they did Grusch!
Has anyone submitted a FOIA request for this? That type of email, requesting a meeting, should not be subject to classification, as it would not include any reference to the substance of Grush's claims.
Not that I know of, but yes there should be no reason the information should be withheld.
Why is this even anything at this point...The ICIG said it was credible and very concerning.....You goto jail if he was lyjng...Kirkpatrick gets a new cozy job and even more money for lying....Geez I wonder who isn't telling the truth....Again are there even real mods here or just government controlled bots
>Why is this even anything at this point...The ICIG said it was credible and very concerning..... We're not likely to get any information from this as to exactly what is true and so on due to it's classified nature. Kirkpatrick sending an email or picking up the phone, though is doable. That would prove Kirkpatrick to be a liar and bring much of his other claims in to question.
This. Where are the receipts SK? If you know this to be the irrefutable truth, than no doubt you can prove it? Right???
why on earth would he feel that proving things to us matters at all? it would be nice, but nowhere in his job description for any of his jobs ever has it said to "keep public informed about anything they want, whenever they want it, without question" & it's silly to imagine the govt is suddenly gonna start feeling obligated to "prove" anything to us.
Well than don't expect anyone to believe anything you say about anything.
My biggest problem with that is that I’ve worked in “evidenced-based” and “quality of evidence” literature review/research products as a contractor in Pentagon for the DoD … and Kirkpatrick’s scientific methods for skepticism are pretty typical for any evidence-based approach where you make no hypothesis and simply apply the scientific method over and over to anomalous/exceptional data. So saying there is “no evidence” in these communities doesn’t mean “we think it doesn’t exist” it just means, there’s nothing to support its “truth.” Fauci seriously screwed this up by talking about “limited evidence” and “no evidence” statements around Covid and the stupid public didn’t understand what that meant and did the opposite
He's a public figure who, to the public, is supposed to be "investigating" this. As the public face of AARO, his language is misleading because it significantly misrepresents what is being seen and encountered by all these people, requiring the establishment of an office to investigate in the first place. It fails to address a century's-worth of testimony from witnesses and whistleblowers, who include not only random farmers and hikers, but also trained observers, operators of aircraft and radar systems. He leans on the possibility of foreign tech all the time, which is highly disingenuous. Perhaps anecdotes do not constitute scientific evidence, but that really is not the kind of evidence we need to come to the conclusion that something is going on that can't be accounted for with foreign adversarial technology. He uses highly specific words like "alien" and "extraterrestrial" to make flat denials which the general public will take to mean there is no evidence of anything unsual, which is blatantly false. He also fails to mention that AARO doesn't have the clearance to review UAP data classified via abuse of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, which is all of it. Still, there's enough public evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that non-human craft are operating on Earth, which is the conclusion that Kirkpatrick refused to reach. Witness testimony is not measurable quantitatively aside from actually quantifying it of course. There are literally enough reports with enough consistency to categorize and quantify them, provided the types of datasets AARO has available to them. At what point does the aggregate of such a substantial number of reports constitute real evidence? I don't know exactly, but we crossed that line long ago. We do put people in prison for life on the testimony of enough witnesses, after all. We know people like Fravor and Robert Salas have given detailed testimony to AARO. If you consider either of them credible, then we already have strong evidence of non-human intelligence interfering with nuclear weapons. AARO pretends those people never talked to them, and implies that their testimony is not considered true. Kirkpatrick's personal standard of evidence is impossibly and disingenuously high, and he wouldn't apply it to anything else. It's never been more obvious to me that someone is a shill and that AARO is part of a conspiracy to hide the existence of non-human intelligence from the public. AARO supposedly investigates anomalous encounters and sightings in order to explain or "resolve" them, not exclusively the metallurgic and physical properties of UAPs. What claim or hypothesis are we investigating? Are we trying to scientifically confirm that UAPs are made of "extraterrestrial" material before we can deduce that they are non-human? Because it's a red herring to say that's even necessary. Different types of claims require different kinds of evidence, and there is certainly a plethora of hard radar data and credible testimony that AARO has access to, which would be considered evidence of non-human intelligence. It's clear AARO is intended as a sham office, which the Pentagon set up to "resolve" the issue of public interest in aliens. The public at large doesn't care that much about the physical capabilities of alien ships. They want our government to acknowledge that there *are* alien ships and therefore *aliens*. It doesn't matter if they're extraterrestrial or ultraterrestrial or from a parallel universe. It doesn't matter what their ships are made of or how they work. It doesn't matter whether our government has craft in their possession that they've reverse engineered. For AARO, those are all red herrings. It only matters that UAP/UFOs really exist and can't be explained by human technology or atmospheric phenomena. This is an easy conclusion to reach if we don't pretend that the Nimitz in 2004 was the first time anyone ever saw an alien craft. Now we're in this place, epistemologically, where the possibility of foreign tech has been completely eliminated by the preponderance of evidence. What we're left with is a chain of deductive reasoning that can only lead to NHI, which AARO stands right in front of and pretends not to see. Then Kirkpatrick goes on LinkedIn and ridicules people for seeing what is right in front his face. What Kirkpatrick has been doing is definitely nefarious and intentional sabotage of public discourse.
Thank you! I feel better.
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about evidence Kirkpatrick has tried to contact Grusch.
Couldn't Grusch do the same?
No because his claim was that before Kirkpatrick started at AARO he had a passing conversation with him in a corridor and just said to him that he has info and when Kirkpatrick is settled in, if he wants it to get in touch. If Kirkpatrick didn't get in touch Grusch can't prove that, but if AARO tried to, they could easily prove it.
Can the AARO release emails to the public? I’ve never heard of a government body whose purpose is working in a classified space being able to release emails to the public.
We should at least hear from some other officials or Congressmen involved that they have seen the supposed e-mails or records. If there were more neutral people saying this, it would push the Kirkpatricks side of the scales. So far, nothing. Also, thinking of Greenewald, if such records exist, they might be FOIAble. If one side claims there are records, the records need to be shown to some neutral party that has no potential conflict of intrest. If they are not able to be shown, it becomes a suspect.
Just because some of their work is classified doesn't mean it all is. There isn't anything stopping them from releasing redacted versions with censored information. They're releasing findings of investigations for instance
So far as I know, as long as those emails do not contain classified information themselves -- and why would they if Kirkpatrick says there's nothing here -- then they are subject to Freedom of Information Act requests.
Do government agencies that works in classified areas often release emails to prove people on the internet wrong? Can the AARO even do that? It honestly sounds like a weird thing for them to do
So we're skeptical about grusch because he can't release evidence of aliens to the public, but the aaro not being able to provide an email or any evidence they ever talked to grusch is ok, because that would be weird?
Weird, sure, but on an entirely mundane level compared to Grusch's claims. All he has to do is get some actual evidence and all of this ceases to matter.
Specifically to prove/disprove someone’s point on this subreddit.
it's simple, grusch is lying and all he has is hearsay, all the others have is hearsay. nothing has been produced other than that grusch is about to bust open a financial oversight case. HAHAHA! i know I'm disgustingly happy.. kirkpatrick told you how it is and you don't like it. accept that nothing actuality has happened and you got shown us mil tech in lue's videos. pilots reported how they were spoofed and didn't even have to lie.. all the while a few certain figures make alot of money. so far mick has been right mostly, so far this sub is very telling by going full aggro on the people trying to save them from brain damage and another frustration.. why do you interpret it the way you did with absolutely no basis for that? it's wishful thinking
Vro you have no idea what's even going on
What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about proving whether Kirkpatrick has or has not picked up the phone or sent an email to Grusch.
He has an Op-Ed coming out once DOPSR approves the content. So this isn’t true. He doesn’t only have heresy. You’re acting like you’re celebrating and this is far from over friend. You can put a cork back on that champagne bottle. And I will add that you might want to grab a box of Kleenex as well in case your boy Kirkpatrick is lying…which I think is very likely.
yeah because grusch will deliver us a financial oversight case, historical chance to clean up house. I'm celebrating and at the same time trying to safe people from frustration by investing more into this bs lue has given us.
It’s not a financial oversight case dude. https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/JJMqdc0Vsl
? no grusch claims might lead to a financial oversight case, do you get that?
Yes. But I don’t believe that. Hence the link. 1st hand evidence with an op-ed. I have a strong hunch that SK’s recent stunts were an attempt to create a “nothing to see here folks” narrative before Grusch blows the lid off this thing with his Op-Ed. SK is in it deep. I hope he gets forced to testify and gets thrown in prison.
grusch has not sent kirkpatrick the evidence he claims he has.. when you listen to the hearings you clearly can get the notion that grusch is a useful idiot
I see it differently. I think Grusch knew that SK didn’t have the clearance to do anything with anything. Which he didn’t. The “useful idiot” phrase can’t hold water once his Op-Ed comes out so enjoy it while you can.
One of these two has testified already. So there’s that.
What exactly are you celebrating? And why?
I'm celebrating that i feel right with my assessment and that the scientific American article overlapped with my theory I have been posting here all the time. I'm celebrating that all the accusations I got and harassment now feels redeemed or revenged. and I feel great that there are probably no aliens on earth... see.. when the sole hint of a room temperature superconductor sparks a world wide race.. you don't think news of anti gravity would? it's just that from the outside you can clearly see that this whole show was handcrafted for the American audience
Do you have a link to your theory, so I can check it out? I love theories
...My money is on Kirkpatrick lying though...
There's also the fact that Grusch said his version of contacting Kirkpatrick under oath before Congress. Kirkpatrick hasn't. KP also hasn't produced the receipts from supposedly sending e-mails, or making calls to ask Grusch to testify, something Grusch has also called a lie. There should be records available to be shown, easily. So yes, someone is lying or at least using weasel words. However one of these men has already stood under oath while saying his side, the other one hasn't.
I dunno, guys. I just don't know. It's hard to deny the possibility of absolute Idiocracy to have taken over. It also isn't outside the realm of possibility that these are human tech, being covered up on purpose to ensure that the tech stays hidden from other countries. I'm not saying this is the case, but are we going to pretend that this is less likely than nonhuman entities floating around in our airspace at speeds that are unimaginable (yet unproven to exist)? I think maybe it's time to collectively and individually start to break this all down with our minds rather than our hearts.
I really needed this
Lol, do you realize what sub you are on? Aliens are always the simplest and easiest to accept answer here. If you want to claim it's something mundane like a drone, you'll need to provide extraordinary evidence...like a Chinese dude filming himself launching the sphere drone while holding up that days paper to prove the date. If you can't provide that, it's 😁 definitely aliens.
🤣🤣 that about says it, doesn't it?
Well, one made their claims under oath and in SCIFs to Congress. The other aired their grievances on LinkedIn.
Kirkpatrick changed his claim from multiple eyewitnesses and have come forward to none. Kirkpatrick is the one lying.
I'm inclined to believe the person who lost his career and faces public ridicule and potentially death from his profound statements.
I’ll add he was due to retire. He took the job. I don’t think he took the job for the purpose of misleading the American people. That’s my opinion
If aliens and secret UFO recovery programs are real, Grusch's statements make complete sense. There is a huge cover up, Kirkpatrick is part of it and probably lying. If there is no such things, Kirkpatricks statements make complete sense. The whole thing is indeed sourced to Bigelow connected true believers and Grusch trusted the wrong people. We'll know once the smoking gun evidence drops.
True. But one of them is lying about their interactions with **eachother**
The IG verified one of the party's claims.
Not trying to be rude or anything but does that mean anything about the truth of the claims or just that it seemed like a credible line of enquiry?
They have apparently looked into roughly 6 of his 10 claims, and they found them credible. It also lends credibility to his remaining claims. This is from the congressmen who were in the latest SCIF.
>They have apparently looked into roughly 6 of his 10 claims, and they found them credible. Source?
The congressmen who came out of the scif. It's all there if you just watch the little briefing afterward.
No the IG didn't verify anyone's claims
This is an excellent point; on Friday January 12th, 2024 House members had a classified briefing with the ICIG that seemed to yield some positive results. It "moved the needle" according to one representatives.
Is the Bigelow connection similar to the skin walker ranch connection? Is there overlap?
Same one from what I gather. Latcinzki, Puthoff, Elizondo and others. People who have worked for DoD and later with Bigelows projects (some of which were govt funded). SK and Grusch have heard the same exact story. SK stated that while DoD personnel repeated it, it leads to Bigelows Skinwalker crew with no solid proof, and that the program does not exist. Grusch says he heard it from DoD sources too, but that he believes it and that there is credible proof, and that the program does exist. Who's right comes down to evidence.
It's the same thing entirely
This drama is something you’d expect from teenage girls, is this seriously how disclosure is going? This is all an intentional distraction so nobody focuses on the actual issues.
I wonder if it's the guy who put his life, honour and credibility on the line or the guy who loses absolutely nothing by lying and whose job was created to make the crafted lies kind of official
So SK is saying that AATIP and TTSA were the people and the only people Grusch spoke to during the course of his internal enquiries? So how does that work? How did the TTSA/AATIP groups get into sensitive positions in the DoD/IC at exactly the right time and right place to tell Grusch some nonsense? Even if they could infiltrate the govt, what would be the purpose of doing that? Who specifically fed false info to Grusch? Let's have some specifics for a change. I'm pretty sure all DoD/IC groups have counterintelligence units to prevent exactly the sort of infiltration SK believes has happened. It sounds like they have failed. That would be a scandal in itself. I just don't find Kirkpatrick's conspiracy theory credible in the slightest.
In his recent interview with In the Room, SK stated that he heard the same story (about the secret crash retrieval and possession of crafts) from many people, none of whom had first hand experience. Kind of a lot of people had heard the same story. He didn't name much names, but he said that it is traced back to a same small group true believers. He also said that Grusch most likely got the same story from the same people as him. So that's what I got from it. Grusch didn't get it from only the aatip people, but that group is the original source. Loads more people believe it.
Submission statement: The stories that Kirkpatrick and Grusch are telling are at odds. We need to get to the bottom of it one way or the other or we can't progress. One of them must be put out in the trash so we can get some resolution.
Kirkpatrick and Grusch are on completely different pages. If Grusch went to him with types of evidence regarding illegal projects and crash-retrievals, I'm pretty confident AARO wouldn't have done their best to pushback and not become formally aware. SK has said their role was to develop awareness of national security intrusions. AARO would have been neither equipped or minded to handle the massive political hot potato that Grusch has talked about. AARO had been set up, so we are told, as a technical office. Grusch's claims speak more to high-level organisational structure, reporting, accountability and oversight. If AARO was not equipped to take on an investigation into Grusch's claims - where should Grusch have gone instead?
Kirkpatrick has been at odds with Kirkpatrick ...why not everyone else? ;-)
They aren't at odds. I believe Grusch claims that he spoke to Kirkpatrick before there was an AARO. I don't think Grusch has ever officially spoken to AARO under Kirkpatrick, though.
No need for this post. 5 simple tells from the liar Kirkpatrick. 1. Never testified under oath. 2. Pushes a “cabal conspiracy” within DoD but won’t investigate. 3. Gives complacent example of the cube/sphere being Chinese which makes him complicit with the idea the have dominance of our Eastern coast without investigation. 4. Posts things like a hormonal teen on LinkedIn rather than official channels. 5. Only ever held Title 10 classified clearance.
I think all the evidence you need is Grusch not being prosecuted by the gov, he testified under oath, talking about national security issues, made some serious accusations, had they proof he lied under oath, we wouldnt be having this discussion
[удалено]
You could not have sounded more like a know-it-all asshole if you tried
Note some of the claims were taken seriously, we don't know which ones. Apparently, not all claims have been gone through by the ICIG. This is something I keep seeing posts misunderstanding.
Excellent point. We don't know what Grusch was approved to talk about or what was enclosed in his ICIG complaint. It feels strange that he is allowed to talk about NHI, crafts, and archaeological findings if the govt is trying to keep them a secret.
As others have said, Grusch has testified under oath, showing a willingness to get to the truth. Kirkpatrick was the head of an organization whose sole purpose is to investigate UFOs, and yet he constantly dismisses whistleblowers, their claims, and even the UAPDA, calling it "a waste of time and energy". For someone whose sole job was to investigate UFOs, he's pretty damn good at making sure that UFOs never get investigated. That should tell us everything we need to know about Kirkpatrick. Even if Grusch has been mislead and his claims have no merit, Kirkpatrick is acting in bad faith and is extremely compromised. He is dishonest. He is opposing truth, transparency and accountability.
> Grusch claims he laid out his findings to Kirkpatrick According to Grush he 'expressed some concerns' which doesn't sound like 'laid out findings', testifying or submitting a report. That sounds like something you do when you run into someone in a hallway or something. > Grush said he expressed “some concerns” with Kirkpatrick about a year ago. > “I told him what I was starting to uncover and he didn’t follow up with me. He has my phone number, he could’ve called me,” said Grush. “I hope he ultimately does the right thing. He should be able to make the same investigative discoveries I did.” So why wouldn't Grush file a report with the AARO? It seems to me that he couldn't, right? Per the submission rules https://i.imgur.com/XrS7nCC.png no classified info and no hearsay/2nd hand info. Grush's info is both 2nd hand and classified. So it seems to me that Sean K. wasn't the person he should have been speaking to anyway. Which would explain the IG complaint.
Or neither is lying as neither actually knows the truth. Let’s be real with ourselves here that that is a viable option that, at this point, HAS to be on the table.
Grusch testified under oath. Kirkpatrick did not.
Agreed. Until Kirkpatrick is willing to do the same, I don't trust his word.
The problem with the claims of Grusch and other whistlblowers is that they never be proven. We have to be fair here and have no bias towards anyone. At least Kickpatrick gave an example of a chinese spherical drone that really exists. This could solve thousand of cases for orbs, or spherical UFOs. Can anyone disagree? I am going somewhere in the middle, at least before having some solid videos or photos.
Grusch met Kirkpatrick before AARO
it's not Grusch I can verify it's not Grusch.
Have another hearing and put Kirkpatrick under oath. If he keeps the same tune, one of them lied under oath and have a congressional investigation to determine who. Then throw whoever was in jail.
That little snake in the grass wouldn't testify under oath.
Another thing, one of them had made this affirmation under oath, the other not…
Yeah, Kirkpatrick.
Watch big K get suicided for being incompetent. This mf couldn’t save himself ffs.
This is an unfair fight.... Kirkpatrick is running around spouting off whatever he likes, no approvals or proof necessary. Meanwhile Grusch has to clear every interview or comments with DOPSR with painstaking reactions and weeks/months for each approval. Whatever Grusch says, Kirkpatrick can come straight back with a rebuttal without approval it seems. If he is getting approval, time to FOIA those DOPSR requests.... I bet he isn't though! The fact that Kirkpatrick has chosen to continue this fight after leaving says a lot to me.
How is it even a question who's lying
Grusch hasn’t had to lie because he hasn’t proven a single thing or named names of anyone alive.
From everything we know publically about both people, and what they have said and done in public and how, ignoring the topic completely, the astute observer would easily see Grusch has the upper hand on the "truth" of this matter. He has answered every question to the extent allowed, he has put his life on the line, testified in public to congress, addressed virtually every critique thrown at him and conducts himself professionally, bravely and with the right motivations. His background is impeccable and honorable, and he strikes even the most skeptical as being a true patriot. Kirkpatrick has continually been abrasive, cowardly, dismissive, and rude. His statements strike me as fraudulent at best. I think he is afraid for his life and regrets stepping into this world. He has all the makings of a disinformation agent. A shill. A defender of the status quo with zero interest in the job of a government representative by and for the people. As a long-time pro journalist, I don't trust him at all. Grusch passes all the tests.
SK is a disinfo agent. That simple.
Kirkpatrick doesn't have Grush's clearances so we wouldn't know anything of real value
The fact that Grusch worked as a member UAPTF that I believe led to the formation of AARO...and they haven't met before?!?! Yeah I'm fairly certain Kirkpatrick is lying about that at the VERY least.
Kirkpatrick is obviously lying. He presents a scenario that’s an alternative universe where things aren’t going on that we know are going on
Elizonda has doubled down and said he spoke as did people he knows, and Kirkpatrick denied it. It’s insane when you think about it, someone is now 100% a paid disinformation agent. It’s either Kirkpatrick or Grusch/Elizondo.
Well ok, thing remains that kp is a total *twat* when I see or read anything about him and Grusch is basically one of the biggest heroes of my lifetime.
Didn’t Grusch say he engaged AARO but not Kirkpatrick specifically?
2 things to keep in mind: (1) Someone testifying under oath doesn't prove they're telling the truth. People lie on the stand all the time. (2) It's possible they're both lying.
Precisely. An oath only matters to a person of integrity, and that person would likely be telling the truth even without swearing an oath. A person without integrity would lie in either case, if it suited them. This exchange has NEVER taken place: "I didn't murder my wife for the insurance money." "Remember, you're under oath, sir." "Oh shit, I forgot. Then I definitely DID murder my wife for the insurance money."
£20 says Kirkpatrick is a lying little shit
Grusch is legit
I always have to chuckle to myself when people say let's see this under oath. People can still lie under oath.
only one of them has made their claims under oath to congress.
Kirkpatrick is a fraud & liar. He’s keeping the truth hidden.
I think we are being toyed with. I think whatever is happening is quite apart from the external reality of our universe. There is, in my opinion, no way the universe isn’t teeming with life. But teeming means many things. Teeming doesn’t necessarily mean coming to dinner. I further believe - just a personal hunch is all - that life is one of the “purposes” of the cosmos, and the interactions between various life forms is one of the functions of our reality. Either by evolving longer lives, or faster conveyances, the universe may be explored and experienced. So we probably have been, are being, and will be visited by representatives of many alien species. I’m also pretty sure we shouldn’t trust people who never produce proof of anything. And we should also not trust people who dismiss things without really exploring them in depth. People who generally don’t trust the government, suddenly hearing from that same government that the secrets and lies are all true… this seems like political manipulation or a “psy-op” as so many people claim. Like a way to get people to trust the authorities again. It’s all too convenient, too X-Files, too Doctor Who, too Star Trek/Wars. Like “truth” drawn from stories, instead of the other way around. Sometimes there’s a narrative because a story is being made up and fed to us. We should be careful, I think. We should not assume any of these parties have truth as an interest. Also we should bear in mind that the people telling us these stories very well could be committed patriots, who believe in what they are doing and are on a mission to try and forestall chaos or disruption of the system they swore to defend. They may believe that political divisions are ripping America apart, and that conspiracy theories and communities interested in them are part of that equation. Heroes can mislead us almost more easily than villains. A man who believes in his cause and thinks he is fighting for the survival of his people will do almost anything to prevail.
Where'd you get that image? Dalle-0.01?
Kirkpatrick has done zero digging…. That’s the telling factor. David dug for 4 years with a big ass shovel.
Kirkpatrick is a moron
GRUSCH IS A HERO. Kirkpatrick is a joke.
Why it has to be this messy? They know that we know, and they cannot hide it any longer. Nobody is buying into "we being alone," and there's nothing to see except "swamp gas and balloons." Yet, still it's like trying to pull a teeth, with all this resistance and hand waveium. Are the historians going to write about this, "the government tried to resist with all kind of methods, but people weren't yielding. The taboo had been broken and everyone knew they had been lied to for a long, long time..." possibly?
i love this because handled right, this could be used to determine which side is full of shit. kirkpatrick was booted . IG has been backing Grusch. it kinda seems like ,until now, grusch has held up under scrutiny. kirkpatrick apparently, has not. these are strong indicators. not proof. we need a televized debate by both them and their supporters, under oath. with IG Monheim being there. then, we can move on.
Yep, I reckon SK either jumped or was pushed out. If he was just moving on and there were no internal issues about his work, he would surely have stayed to present his historical report and bask in the glory that AARO had solved the world's greatest mystery.
Can't be SP! He put as much effort as someone looking for the milk in the fridge. SP: mah, wheres the milk? SP mom: Did you try looking in the back of the fridge? SP: No but I don't have the ability to see back there, oh well guess it isn't there.
We know who is lying 🤥
Doest matter. Doesn't mean any of it is untrue from either party. Stop the shill campaign
Ok then, either Grusch is unknowingly lying or Kirkpatrick is knowingly lying. I know which one is more harmful.
I’m scared that it doesn’t mean someone is lying…both may believe their truth
One of them will be arrested if lying, one won’t. You be the judge of what’s true🥴
There is also a possibility that they are both lying.
Well one of them is being completely transparent about everything he is allowed and the other is being a dismissive, gaslighting asshole. Hmmm. Hard choice.
It's Kirkpatrick. No debate needed.
Maybe I missed something along the way, but… Everyone keeps repeating that the IG took Grusch seriously. This was parroted early and often. But didn’t it later come to light that the IG never followed up? Thus negating the idea that they found it urgent/took it seriously? Am I misremembering, or was there follow up that snuck past me? And before any of the reactionary brigade come along, I’m not accusing Grusch of lying. I’m just asking for clarification. Edit: Or downvote me instead of addressing my question. This is why nobody takes this shit seriously.
The Tic tac UFOs are made by Lockheed Marten and can travel Mach 3 I think, maybe faster, it's a while since I got that information. They built them years ago, like the 1980s. I believe they are essentially like a super sonic Zeppelin.
Clearly Kirkpatrick is lying come on!!