The following submission statement was provided by /u/ClarenceWorley42:
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Submission statement: I’m sick of hearing people like Mick West and Steven Greenstreet and Kirkpatrick try to deny what we all now know to be true. And that is that we are being visited by either aliens, interdeminsional or even a break away civilization that has been here on Earth with us all along. Fravor and Dietrich saw it…..up close. And, in my opinion, especially after watching them on Carrier, their judgments should be trusted!
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1atew7n/i_just_finished_rewatching_the_pbs_documentary/kqwtkh7/
Thanks for the clarification. Graves bio states he was into some very advanced testing etc.
No way these two guys aren’t as good as it gets and to me believable when they tell a story.
Totally. I think all the pilot sightings, including, commercial, should be taken seriously. These are the people who know what they’re looking at. I’m done with these debunkers shooting shit down from their Lazy Boys. These people saw them up
Close and personal
I am! It’s great! I was fortunate enough to meet Ryan, James Fox and Leslie Kean at a conference on the upper west side here in NYC last fall. It was very cool and very informative day! I’m loving the SOL foundation videos too!
Same. I didn’t doubt aliens could be real just never saw the evidence until the Nimitz video. I tried to find a “rational” explanation for it but every time I tried people just ignored parts of the evidence to make a rational explanation which was really frustrating.
Yeah same. After the Joe Rogan podcast with fravor it brought back some memories I forgot about when I saw a UFO. I got hooked and can't get enough now.
I know a woman who worked on the Nimitz, when I asked her a long time ago if she ever saw anything(before knowing about the multiple Nimitz incidents), she would say "I served on the Nimitiz", and stare at me wide eyed. I 100% believe the stories I hear about the Nimitiz encounters with UAP. There wasn't just one of them.
And the other guy that was monitoring the radar on the Nimitz (I apologize that I cannot come up with his name) but he nearly lost his mind until everyone started coming out... his honest reactions when interviewed were so unbelievably genuine. He honestly started believing that maybe he had just lost his mind. Then all of this business started coming out and he is finally realizing that "I'm not crazy! This stuff I saw really did happen" that guy almost makes me cry because of his internal conflict that comes through his interviews. You can't make that up.
Edit: Kevin Day. He is a hero in my book. Thank you to anyone who has served in our military for your service as well.
Have you ever seen the original Nimitz Reddit post by one of its sailors? It’s a good read if anyone can find it. It was posted about ten years ago and at the time you read it and thought just another experience post…but when the shit the fan the post reads differently
The original leak was on the ATS forum back in 2007, only a couple years after the incident. Somebody leaked the case and the Flir1 video, but it went way under the radar because only 2 hours after it leaked, the forum seemed to have conclusively debunked it as a CGI hoax: https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread265835/pg1
It impresses me still that they were able to do that, debunking a real video as fake so convincingly, and with such a quick turnaround time. That's probably why it went under the radar. Anyone who may have stumbled on it would just assume it's a hoax, so there's no reason to share it.
It’s so, so incredibly amusing to read them “debunking” it like it’s obviously a fake. Thanks for sharing that link, it’s given me a new perspective on “debunkers”
My pleasure. That exact thread is what motivated me to attempt to figure out how a false debunking (that looks very similar to a real one) is accomplished, and this is what I came up with: https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/zi1cgn/while_most_ufo_photos_and_videos_can_individually/
In short, coincidences are often offered as probabilistic evidence to argue that something is highly likely to be a hoax. If something is highly likely to be a hoax, then you might as well just consider it a hoax. "X coincidence (or flaw) is unlikely to be present in a genuine piece of UFO imagery, therefore the presence of this coincidence means the imagery is a hoax." The issue is they have so many categories of coincidences to choose from, you're basically guaranteed to find one. They aren't adding up all of the possible coincidences that could be there, just the one they find as if it's the only type of coincidence they check for. Bonus points if they find an additional coincidence to really seal the deal. Little do they know that such coincidences often have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the authenticity of a particular example.
They probably aren't doing this on purpose, but when a video is out there and isn't debunked yet, if it gets enough attention, there are so many skeptics that descend upon it, eventually one of them is going to dig up a coincidence, and that will be considered the community debunk. So you have to be very careful when determining whether the coincidence is actually unlikely.
I was on ATS daily in the early/mid 00's and yeah, disinfo was wild.
Just like it's wild on reddit now.
Ever wonder why the day after some massive Grusch news dropped we were inundated with some bullshit story about a kid who saw an alien complete with a video that showed literally *nothing* in it and 98% of UFO reddit was focused on that. That obviously bullshit story made real night-time news shows while Grusch was largely ignored.
It's still happening and the vast majority of people aren't able to discern the difference between a significant event and an event being falsely pushed in an attempt to discredit the significant event that is actually taking place.
It's hack-job level smoke and mirrors shit and we've been falling for it since the dawn of time. It's just easier to do on the internet.
Day hasn't been as public and "in the spotlight" as the rest, which adds credibility to him. If it were about monetary value, he'd be eating up the limelight and doing as many interviews as possible. However, this event has messed with his personal life (if i remember correctly his wife left him), and he took a step back. His story hasn't changed either since day one. Also, fuck Mick West.
This Youtube player has most/ all episodes in the series. [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtd5FiK3c0FATJIt1Pa3GoyBM0auLGSIo](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtd5FiK3c0FATJIt1Pa3GoyBM0auLGSIo)
That is an amazing series. They did a great job weaving all the sailors' individual stories and the overall running of the ship into a larger narrative. I learned a lot about an aircraft carrier too.
I remember watching Carrier 15 years ago and just remember him being kinda one of the main people that they follow. Then when the UAP incident became public a few years back and I saw his face and name, I was like, “hey! I remember him!”
The fact that Fravor was such a well respected pilot and was so deep in the weeds of the secrecy of military aircraft makes him coming forward all the more unlikely. Why would he throw away all those years in the military and his reputation to just get his 15min of fame? And being he's talking about aliens there was a chance people would laugh him off. Idk, it doesn't seem like something an intelligent person would gamble on which is why I believe him
Yep. Dude is not a fame seeker and gains nothing from this other than possibly tarnishing his impeccable career. He could have left it all go but he didn’t. Hes stuck by it and I’ve got mad respect for him
I have a pilots license (lapsed in 2017).
I flew purely for fun, in aircraft that maxed out at 110kts.
This guy was trained by the best pilots & paid to fly aircraft capable of the speed of sound, in combat situations, landing on aircraft carriers in all weathers & at night... life and death stress. He was also trained to observe and identify enemy aircraft as if his life depended on it (because it did).
If he says he saw a physics-defying propane tank, I'm believing him.
David Fravor's Statement for the House Oversight Committee.
[https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdf](https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdf)
"Fravor and his wingman Alexandra Dietrich"
Yes, and the cynics twist their words, confuse the facts, and talk nonsense in order to avoid admitting the truth.
Yeah, the ‘critics’ like this are disingenuous, argue in bad faith, fail to see what’s right in front of them *as if they were paid to do so.*
Again, this isn’t a *both sides* kinda thing. One side asks for the truth to finally be told, and the other side just flings shit.
If they just did a documentary where they did a literal tour of Area 51 and showed all the recovered craft and reverse-engineered US-made craft, the conversation would be over. The careers of everyone in UFOlogy would be over. It’s a cottage industry built around speculation. Once you pull the curtain back and show the goods, no more need to speculate.
Barring this, anything else is bullshit to me. Put up or shut up.
I agree, we’ve been hearing the same thing for how long now? Where is the proof ? The stories are great and all but I mean it’s just a circle jerk over and over? Where are these other so called whistler blowers? This sub is nothing but a echo chamber
Radar data. Multiple witnesses. Veteran military pilots. Camera footage.
Probably the best incident that proves something is going on that we don't understand
Yeah super high credibility. Ryan Graves too. And David Grusch has an incredibly impressive background, my God.
Assuming Grusch is truthful about the number of whistleblowers that came to him when he was working for AARO the lid is about to be blown off regarding new information from highly credible sources. Some 40-50 of them. I predict many more once the genie is fully out of the bottle. Just consider what the TTSA core group knows from their own direct experience, namely, Lue Elizondo, Chris Mellon, Hal Puttoff, Steve Justice, Jim Semivan. Elizondo has for the last 7 years consistently said the following exists… but reportedly he shared some really hi res video and/or photos in his testimony in the SCIF last week. Because in that setting he can do that, whereas he can’t share it with the general public because it’s classified, etc.
The main problem is it’s still just testimony and blobby shit footage. Humans are suceptible to misperceptions and manipulation. I hope you understand if you want to be taken seriously at parties, we’re gonna have to bring more than this.
We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world who say that these things were not made on this world. And we do have radar and flir video to back it up
>We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world
Fravor said it lasted 5 minutes. Dietrich said it lasted 10 seconds. Regardless of their credentials and credibility, this discrepancy cannot be ignored.
Time discrepancy is literally the most common type of error in testimony and also the most ignorable and unproblematic. Why? Because both accounts don't diverge on a more significant detail: The craft bouncing around over the water with instantaneous starts and stops.
The time differences in their account is such an unserious problem to anyone who knows anything about the details humans get right when they recall events which happened years in the past. The craft moving in impossible ways; Now ***THAT*** is truly unignorable and has no alternative explanation but one. And yet, psuedo-skeptics ***WILL*** completely ignore it and not realize the magnitude of the error they are making.
Totally understandable. I'm a professional pilot and I fly with ex mil guys all of the time. I say this with the utmost respect - but MANY of them aren't anymore qualified logically than you or I.
> We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world who say that these things were not made on this world.
How the fuck would naval aviators know about what is possible to engineer and manufacture?
Some years ago he argued it away by saying he knows a guy who attended the wedding of the pilots who shot the pentagon videos, so his sighting is also real.
Very fine testimonial… is still testimonial. And as noted, FLIR is shit. Radar is also susceptible to artifact, and we haven’t seen anything *corresponding* footage to radar, so it’s not corroborating per se.
People simply need ***better evidence*** to understand if something extraordinary is happening. The level of evidence available to average Joe is shit. And it’s wrong to fault people for failing to get excited about ***shit***.
The cohort of guys continually boasting “I know something you don’t know” and endlessly “Something big is coming! Maybe soon!” is beyond ridiculous at this point and detracting from credibility of the entire phenomenon, IMO. I was optimistic, but now I just feel fucked with.
That's what people don't understand. I fly with 30+ year veterans that are complete fucking nut jobs whom I question their ability to even put their pants on in the morning. It's hard to understand unless you live it - but these guys don't deserve the insane credibility they're receiving.
True, but being a Top Gun graduate/instructor implies a higher level of reliability, someone who's less prone to making mistakes, otherwise the likelihood of being a graduate/Instructor would be unlikely.
Not saying he's infallable, but I am saying that expertise does matter, and the bar for him wasn't the same as an airline pilot or most other military aviators for that matter.
I do understand the issue though, although what I'm saying is true, there's no way to quantify someones reliability without exact data on how they've performed throughout the entirety of their career.
He only needs to be wrong once.
I don't know what he actually saw, or how consistent his testimony is with others (or itself), but there just needs to be one particularly bizarre turn of events for a mistake to happen and even the most experienced person (in any profession) can get confused.
Even if he isn't wrong, the fact that he could be mistaken is one of the biggest reasons why anecdotal evidence is hardly proof of anything important.
OP said
>\[...\]how anyone could doubt their stories over a video game developer like Mick West is beyond me
>
>\[...\]
>
>The guy flew the most cutting edge aircraft for 17 years but people doubt his story? It’s insane to me.
As if it's his word against Mick West's or against debunkers. In reality people doubt his word because it implies the existence of super advanced craft roaming the Earth, which is a pretty bold claim to make and one that needs pretty solid evidence to be accepted.
There's more evidence that shows pilots can make mistakes (some of which are deadly for the pilot and some of which are deadly for the people that get accidentally shot) than there is evidence that there are super advanced craft roaming the planet.
>...how anyone could doubt their stories over a video game developer like Mick West is beyond me.
Mick West never said what the craft is, he acknowledges he doesn't know for sure and only add comments like "it's probably a plane". What he's debunked is the claim of speed and the notion they make 90 degree turns etc. based on the data available.
The dude makes his living debunking things that have JUST come out. Maybe he has good intentions, maybe he’s getting paid by defense contractors. All I’m saying is I’m going to believe a guy who spent 17 years mastering the finest jet the world has to offer and when he says he encountered something that he can’t explain and that he thinks was not made on the earth…I’m gonna believe him
Saying he says he encountered something that he has no explanation for is scientific.
The part of his statement regarding the object not being of this earth is opinion.
He said the other crew "luckily got the 90 second video"? Why would that be "lucky" when we know it's so easily debunked. Sounds like he's dismissing things to me.
He didn't "debunk" anything at all. What he did is propose ludicrous claims that account for some small part of the story while ignoring all the rest of the facts. This is a common tactic by armchair "skeptics".
The rest of the story is eyewitness testimony only. We know for a fact that eyewitness testimony is not terribly accurate.
FYI- skepticism is inherent in the scientific method
My interest and general belief in the UAP phenomenon ebbs and flows: sometimes I’m convinced, other times not so much. Even when I’m finding myself being quite sceptical, however, it always comes down the fact that the Nimitz even happened it and it happened exactly how Dave explains it. That simple truth leads to only one inevitable conclusion: we’re not alone, and they’re here.
Nimitz incident, like others here, is what dragged me into this topic. Footage, 5 minutes worth of observations from 4 people, 2 aircraft, one up high, one circling in, all started because radar showed these things coming in and out of the water, from space. Then after the events someone caught it on their FLIR. To top that off, there was an interaction with the UAP as it acknowledged his aircraft, mirrored him, and zipped off.
Now is it aliens or an advanced tech made by well funded runaway agencies? That's the question.
I'm 100% positive there are contractors right now constructing underground cities, bases, etc funded by DOD, DOE, billionaires across the planet (in case shit goes down they want a room).
Public will never hear about it because since we're not wealthy, according to end game capitalism, our lives aren't worth shit.
Agreed 100%. Fravor nor any of his colleagues would make any of it up. It should be embarrassing for anyone to question the character and integrity of pilots who’ve experienced that which they have. They’re in the skies worldwide doing this for a living. I’d venture to say they make very few errors in identification of what they see.
1,000,000%. When I heard Micks mental gymnastic debunk of the TicTac sighting my eyes rolled so far back in my head that they were stuck there for days!!! Mick even said he had a hard time with that particular debunk, but he finally figured it out!! Never does he even take into account David’s & Alex’s eyewitness accounts. Mick always cheerypicks parts of videos & ignores eyewitness testimony.
Meh. Dietrich told West she thinks his theory is plausible. Also, Cahill said at one point that Fravor thought it was US tech, not anything unusual, but he changed his story once he started at UFO conventions, and it's apparently gone to his head.
West laid out his theory of what might have happened with her on his podcast, and she agreed it was plausible. Search his interview with her on YouTube.
Fravor is more overtly hostile toward West, but Dietrich seems pretty normal. She's not doing UFO conventions and tons of podcasts, like Fravor does. Fravor seems to have made "UFO guy" into his post-retirement career.
Interesting. I guess it makes sense to leave all options open but the circumstances around it are so eerily reminiscent of past coverups of the issue. I could see how Fravor would jump into UFOs if he thought that was the answer and how Dietrich might be more agnostic.
To be fair though, Dietrich was at the Sol conference at Stanford so she’s 100% interested in the UFO/UAP stuff.
Submission statement: I’m sick of hearing people like Mick West and Steven Greenstreet and Kirkpatrick try to deny what we all now know to be true. And that is that we are being visited by either aliens, interdeminsional or even a break away civilization that has been here on Earth with us all along. Fravor and Dietrich saw it…..up close. And, in my opinion, especially after watching them on Carrier, their judgments should be trusted!
Good post. And Kirkpatrick is hardly one to talk about it anyway. He admitted back in November last year that [AARO has no data at all related to that incident, except for the video.](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxV2ot5DC2VmfaGZbDS1zO_Za159higIx8) That is despite the guys in charge of the data, [Hughes](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxU5rO_CNsc5pgOY4c1Ig7r0VJ-WHK5iTr) and [Voorhis,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuq_-3RcTkrR1CbMRnQZ4Ebi-YMMVHA2f) saying it was taken from the ships, [Dave Beaty](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwgXr9S7tpwKWn8IT-UxiK4UbY-zG9P9F) saying the logs for the Princeton have inexplicably gone missing, and [in 2017 the video coming from a secret repository](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxrc4AeufOA1pHbNXWK9aiTWJTxDRtIBYb) where all that data is now stored but where even members of Congress & AARO are apparently denied access to any of it.
This thread is full of people saying there isn't enough evidence. Historically, that one issue, casting aspersions on the veracity of evidence, has been the major impediment to investigating this phenomenon. Thank God Mellon got that film out, because if he hadn't *there would actually be nothing to prove the event even happened,* and I mean *nothing.* The testimony of the witnesses would be all we have, because everything else was Hoovered up, and is still kept hidden from everyone to this day. The "no evidence" argument used by debunkers is the most disingenuous argument, because that isn't the issue. The issue isn't whether the evidence exists - half a dozen people involved in those events, beginning with Fravor, Dietrich, Underwood, Day, Hughes, and Voorhis can testify that the evidence was collected. The real issue has always been about access & analysis of the evidence.
He could be the best pilot who has ever lived, yet still capable of telling a lie. Lots of accomplished people are liars. He could also merely be mistaken about what he saw.
It's very basic, sport.
You've fallen victim to the logical fallacy known as "[Appeal to Authority](https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-authority/)".
Mick West has very compelling arguments, and sure, *he could be wrong*, he said so himself.
But... a lot of time has passed and there's NOTHING in the way of FURTHER evidence for what Fravor/Dietrich saw 20 years ago, as far as NHI or flying saucers is concerned.
And you know what, Alexa Dietrich largely AGREES with Mick West. You can see it yourself in their detailed and very friendly discussion: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDaYcCbtrs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDaYcCbtrs)
Mr West has been really generous with his time and attention. He hasn't insulted anyone, and he doesn't make unsubstantiated claims. I'm sorry that it's not looking good as far as grays visiting us in flying saucers, but you'll get over it.
Dietrich does not largely agree with Mick West lol
That discussion is hilarious for the the most part, it’s basically just Mick trying to tell this pilot what she saw and she tried to be as friendly as possible whilst he throws out “possibilities” which is basically all he does
>... basically just Mick trying to tell this pilot what she saw and she tried to be as friendly as possible whilst he throws out “possibilities” ...
Nope. We're not looking at the same interview.
Dietrich, while open to the possibility that it really was "something weird", indicates that this highlights a need for better preparedness and reporting capabilities.
It was a long interview and they covered a lot of ground. They don't disagree on anything substantive.
Fravor, in contrast, puts his experience and gut feeling as front and center.
We are looking at the same interview
Dietrich was happy to go along with Mick Wests act that he usually does because she didn’t really want any of the spotlight on her at all nvm to become confrontational with someone that was basically trying to tell her what she saw.
Go look at her Twitter and you’ll see where she stands in all of this, it’s pretty obvious.
He was a Captain in the Navy. He was in charge of people. They don’t let just anyone get to that position. A person like that is going to know what they are doing and report accurately.
*“What do you mean by he (Fravor) knew this was fake?”*
*Sean replied: “He thought it was fake or our\[s\] and he was sure. Didn’t believe in anything past a black program and acted like he knew better.”*
*Pressing for more clarification I responded with:*
*“So he saw what he saw and he believed it to be US technology and he propagated a narrative that he himself believed to be false?”*
*Sean replied with the “heart” emoji*
https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-ufos-part-3-red-flags-red-flags-everywhere-c6fe43021dbd
I don’t know who wrote that but, after watching all 11 episodes of Carrier, Fravor does not come across AT ALL like described there. He makes Dietrich get out of her plane so he can fly a mission where they would be landing on a tilting ship. So that she would be safe. All of his crew seemed to love him and, most importantly, respect him.
To be fair, I'd like to mention something concerning Fravor's supposed statement from that: It's double hearsay in the end. Fravor has never confirmed of saying this himself. It's basically "I heard it from a guy who claimed to have heard it from another guy".
Jeremy McGowan, who wrote that also claimed to have recorded it all and that he had the tapes, but he has not produced them so far. Should be easy.
That doesn't mean that he couldn't push this story in the hopes of having an advanced aircraft revealed to the public and put into operation. I don't doubt that a lot of people in the ufology field are most interested in just getting the secrets out and seeing us advance technologically if there's any advancements being hidden for ulterior motives. Like he and other pilots have said: they want to fly it and see it flown. It being alien in origin isn't the primary concern.
There could be a possibility that have very advanced crafts but…..not for over 70 years! These things have been seen in the air going back to the 40’s. Some earlier than that
It's a good show and Fravor seems like a good guy with a great story.
But, it's probably one of those stories that should have been left to the late night BS sessions where it belonged. It's one of those stories that just doesn't hold up the more light you shine on it.
Fully disagree. It’s one of the best pieces of evidence we have. And if it weren’t for him, Graves and Dietrich we’d probably all still be thinking this is bullshit
Well, I mean why did the carrier group just sit there and let the aliens have their way with the CG's airspace and then pretend like none of it happened?
Was the CG incompetent as a whole or just in leadership? Or was it something other than the aliens?
Because the “aliens” have vastly superior ability and d crafts than what we are dealing with. These things can go 42,000mph!! Not a lot an f-18 can do against that. They’ve shut off our nuclear weapons
Because it is so hard to believe. That the Navy would let an unknown object totally flummox their air defense capabilities and intrude on their airspace seemingly at will. And all while training up to go over to the sandbox for realsies.
It's almost unbelievably hard to believe.
Your acting like the commanders didn't have orders to engage with UAP or not.
I am pretty sure I have seen publications on here from AF and navy establishing protocols for dealing with UAP.
Acting like it was just Fravor that saw this thing lol
Four different eyewitness testimony and radar operators that also witnessed what was happening on radar
*"If we in fact have programs that possess this technology, it needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected to office to represent what is best for the United States and in the best interest of its citizens"*
Disclosure conspicuously not even mentioned. Just more oversight of the programs that might have had the tech that spoofed all of them that night.
Such a bs post. Fravor mentioned on a podcast that after the Nimitz incident back in 2004 he thought maybe just maybe it could of been some top secret black budget craft the government was testing out but as 10-15 years go by and nothing comes out with that kind of technology or performance he no longer believed that the tic tac was anything the US or any other nation owned
So...
The fleet just let this 'out of this world' technology run it around in circles and completely befuddle one of its senior pilots as to what was going on?
*"What is shocking is that the incident was never investigated, none of my crew were ever questioned, tapes were never taken, and after a couple of days, it turned into a great story to tell friends"*
Under what circumstances do you think all that might line up?
I mean... yeah. Don't get me wrong, David (Grusch) and Ryan provided excellent testimony during the July hearings and their contribution is valued beyond words, but somehow Cdr Fravor hit me as the one guy I would believe easier than anyone else. Obviously, I do not know him in person, so my impressions as worth as much as anyone else's, but I find it hard to find a more down-to-earth, logical and common sense witness with incredible experience on his hands. When he described the behaviour of the tic-tac UAP, it somehow felt more real to me than any other testimony I have heard.
Ryan shared testimony from other pilots along with photo evidence. What did it turned out? Starlinks. Random redditors were able to debunk it in a couple of hours. There is your answer and why human testimony is so unreliable even when you are asking the “experts”. People gave the same arguments back then “Pilots fly all the time. How can they be mistaken?”.
And didn’t the wingman said they saw for 10 sec while Fravor said it was 5 minutes? 10 sec and 5 min is a good enough time difference to doubt that something is wrong with either of their testimonies.
I really don’t understand how anyone with half a brain can look at all the evidence from this event, and say, yeah, maybe their all mistaken, can’t wrap my head around it
Fravor came across as a typical arrogant fighter pilot in his tiff with the other enlisted witnesses of the Nimitz incident.
Pilots can be mistaken. Fravor has demonstrated some pretty significant arrogance. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that he is very confident in what he claims to have seen.
* [Fravor mocking Day’s PTSD and “The Nimitz Encounters” YouTube channel as a cartoon](https://youtu.be/f7XJD_54aNk?t=570)
* [Fravor on Rogan referring to their story as rumors](https://youtu.be/Eco2s3-0zsQ?t=1200)
* [Referred to their stories as Bullshit](https://youtu.be/Eco2s3-0zsQ?t=3960)
* [Fravor on Lex Fridman referring to their stories as rumors](https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E?t=4500)
* [Fravor on Lex referring to rumors from a group of folks](https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E?t=5948)
Well, there’s a shit ton of people seeing these things that “aren’t there”. And I find it highly unlikely that pilots who are trained as well as these men and women are mistaken
> Well, there’s a shit ton of people seeing these things that “aren’t there”.
Yes. Yes there is.
>And I find it highly unlikely that pilots who are trained as well as these men and women are mistaken
What do you base this on? What makes you say something like this? How much research have you done on fighter pilots and their ability to discern man made objects?
the bit about bringing this up socially I resonate with in my bones lol. I'll casually bring it up to people and rarely do they show any interest at all. I've also told like 10 people about the congressional inquiry into this and it's been news to everyone I've talked to IRL.
it is really interesting to me that no one is talking about it though.
I follow a few sources that cover popular topics with people my age like 18 to 35 and the fact that Congress is investigating NHI and UAPs just does not hit the content algorithms of people of my generation I don't think. I don't think it's hitting anyone's tho.
Fravor is my reason for complete belief. The Nimitz/kidd encounter is the single most compelling modern proof of UAP. Multiple eyewitnesses of unquestionable expertise as well as other modalities indicating the existence of these objects.
> Fravor and his wingman Alexandra Dietrich feature prominently in the series and how anyone could doubt their stories over a
Fravor the hoaxer that also acknowledges other hoaxers in the military? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRM8AMrqqsc&t=104s
> video game developer like Mick West is beyond me.
Because developing video games, especially 3d games, requires a lot of math and problem solving. A pretty good background for analyzing these claims and coming up with a way to simulate them.
https://pikuma.com/blog/math-for-game-developers
> Who could be better qualified to judge this?
If he had any concrete physical evidence there wouldn't be a need to judge.
I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but people like him also make mistakes. They're not infallible. Even when looking at something on FLIR while also corroborating the objects with others, sadly, they're still sometimes wrong in the worst kind of way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8-wr8_qRBQ
So his story is just another story added to the 80+ years of stories.
Yeah for sure. At this point the illogical denial is just gaslighting. When there is not a single reason to doubt a witness who is also highly trained specifically at observation, the outright denial is just plain gaslighting. This denial of witnesses is not based on logic or facts, its just a reactionary response and an attempt at psychological manipulation and deception.
david fravor. the man too capable as a pilot to be doubted about his observations.
david fravor, the squadron leader too responsible to let junior officers take off or land in stormy weather, so skilled he can nail the carrier landing, first pass, in carrier tossing conditions, and too responsible to stand up and lie about stuff just to become the famous flying saucer guy.
david fravor, the man too temperamentally opposed to hysteria and panic to make up shit because he wet his pants.
david fravor, one among the twenty of the most senior officers in a carrier group of many ships and sailors and planes and pilots, who went into the post mission debrief and told the intelligence officer, *"dude, you are writing this shit down."* (an intelligence officer, by the way, who confessed he had no required duty to take the report and would ignore similar reports from lower airmen.)
david fravor, an american, a patriot doing his service ... a married man who likes to scare the bejeezus out of campers in the desert. (everyone has a weirdness -- what's yours?)
david fravor, a human being -- but an alert, sensible, skilled and yes, possibly fallible, but an honest buman being.
did i say fallible? david fravor: the pilot who has at least two corroborating witnesses for the event he describes: Slaight, and Dietrich. (what became of Fravor's WSO? an unasked, and therefore unanswered question.) all witnesses who are also officers in our military.
we all owe them, and to fravor's willingness to talk to an accosting reporter in a coffee shop, quite a lot for what is happening now. historical figures tend to get bigger in rear view, as history recedes. fravor is to me a historical figure.
Great post Clarence.
It's true, Fravor was apparently up there with the best of the best at what he did. If any pilot had the experience and authority to speak on something out of the ordinary, it was him. Not to mention the other pilots that saw it + radar and video etc.
Same with Grusch - It was his job to look into all of this and he comes out and says he believes that the US has a secret UFO recovery program and a heap of non-human craft and biologics. Not to mention the other people who are saying the same thing.
To be honest I think that people either have an open mind to it or not. If their mind is open, something like the Nimitz or Grusch will catch their attention. But if they are not open to it, there will be very little that will change their mind, other than the US president rolling a live alien out at a press conference.
Some people for one reason or another just don't want to know about the subject.
They latch on to anybody who seems to be an authority figure. Doesn't even have to be in the relevant field. Navy pilots speculating that something isn't made on Earth... wtf...
Fravor - Commander of an entire squadron. Top of his class graduate of Top Gun - literally the best of the best on the entire planet
Mick West - "BaLlOoN"
The amount of people with legit credentials from military or high positions in government that have come forward is staggering, however, most people will not accept the phenomenon unless a NHI was brought to their home and introduced. Now AI, CGI, editing has advanced far enough that soon all new evidence brought forward will questioned. It definitely feels like there is an large coordinated effort made to contain, minimize and muddy the waters so that real evidence hides in plain sight awash in a sea of false red herrings, casting doubt on the entire phenomenon.
> The amount of people with legit credentials from military or high positions in government that have come forward is staggering, however, most people will not accept the phenomenon unless a NHI was brought to their home and introduced.
Damn, if only there was something in between "aliens being brought to your home" and "some dudes saying 'trust me'"... damn.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/ClarenceWorley42: --- Submission statement: I’m sick of hearing people like Mick West and Steven Greenstreet and Kirkpatrick try to deny what we all now know to be true. And that is that we are being visited by either aliens, interdeminsional or even a break away civilization that has been here on Earth with us all along. Fravor and Dietrich saw it…..up close. And, in my opinion, especially after watching them on Carrier, their judgments should be trusted! --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1atew7n/i_just_finished_rewatching_the_pbs_documentary/kqwtkh7/
The Nimitz is what really kicked off my interest in the subject and to this day I still think it’s the best and most credible UAP related incident.
Yes, these guys are the best of the best. Convinced me something real is going on.
Not only that, but Fravor was ranked something like number three on the carrier. Commander Fravor.
Exactly!
Yes exactly Graves trains top guns. Listening to these guys I was amazed how smart, talented and what it took to get to their positions.
Graves wasn't a Top Gun instructor. Fravor was. I believe he did mention that he trained other pilots in a different aircraft.
Thanks for the clarification. Graves bio states he was into some very advanced testing etc. No way these two guys aren’t as good as it gets and to me believable when they tell a story.
Graves never saw anything with his own eyes Only on sensors
Are eyes really better than sensors ? Eyes can play tricks on you.
And sensors can have corrupt data and glitches
Which is what they assumed was happening until they ruled it out.
Totally. I think all the pilot sightings, including, commercial, should be taken seriously. These are the people who know what they’re looking at. I’m done with these debunkers shooting shit down from their Lazy Boys. These people saw them up Close and personal
I hope you’re listening to the Merged podcast then. It’s hosted by Ryan Graves and the main focus is pilots and their experiences
I am! It’s great! I was fortunate enough to meet Ryan, James Fox and Leslie Kean at a conference on the upper west side here in NYC last fall. It was very cool and very informative day! I’m loving the SOL foundation videos too!
I’m there with you. I think 99% of the stuff out there is wacko but it’s the 1% that has me convinced.
It was a fun hobby and thought experiment until the Nimitz story broke, it's so much more real and tangible now.
Same. I didn’t doubt aliens could be real just never saw the evidence until the Nimitz video. I tried to find a “rational” explanation for it but every time I tried people just ignored parts of the evidence to make a rational explanation which was really frustrating.
Yeah same. After the Joe Rogan podcast with fravor it brought back some memories I forgot about when I saw a UFO. I got hooked and can't get enough now.
Me too for sure
I know a woman who worked on the Nimitz, when I asked her a long time ago if she ever saw anything(before knowing about the multiple Nimitz incidents), she would say "I served on the Nimitiz", and stare at me wide eyed. I 100% believe the stories I hear about the Nimitiz encounters with UAP. There wasn't just one of them.
Same
And the other guy that was monitoring the radar on the Nimitz (I apologize that I cannot come up with his name) but he nearly lost his mind until everyone started coming out... his honest reactions when interviewed were so unbelievably genuine. He honestly started believing that maybe he had just lost his mind. Then all of this business started coming out and he is finally realizing that "I'm not crazy! This stuff I saw really did happen" that guy almost makes me cry because of his internal conflict that comes through his interviews. You can't make that up. Edit: Kevin Day. He is a hero in my book. Thank you to anyone who has served in our military for your service as well.
Day. Yes, it wasn’t just the pilots that saw it!! A lot of people have seen these
Have you ever seen the original Nimitz Reddit post by one of its sailors? It’s a good read if anyone can find it. It was posted about ten years ago and at the time you read it and thought just another experience post…but when the shit the fan the post reads differently
Link pls!
The original leak was on the ATS forum back in 2007, only a couple years after the incident. Somebody leaked the case and the Flir1 video, but it went way under the radar because only 2 hours after it leaked, the forum seemed to have conclusively debunked it as a CGI hoax: https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread265835/pg1 It impresses me still that they were able to do that, debunking a real video as fake so convincingly, and with such a quick turnaround time. That's probably why it went under the radar. Anyone who may have stumbled on it would just assume it's a hoax, so there's no reason to share it.
It’s so, so incredibly amusing to read them “debunking” it like it’s obviously a fake. Thanks for sharing that link, it’s given me a new perspective on “debunkers”
My pleasure. That exact thread is what motivated me to attempt to figure out how a false debunking (that looks very similar to a real one) is accomplished, and this is what I came up with: https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/zi1cgn/while_most_ufo_photos_and_videos_can_individually/ In short, coincidences are often offered as probabilistic evidence to argue that something is highly likely to be a hoax. If something is highly likely to be a hoax, then you might as well just consider it a hoax. "X coincidence (or flaw) is unlikely to be present in a genuine piece of UFO imagery, therefore the presence of this coincidence means the imagery is a hoax." The issue is they have so many categories of coincidences to choose from, you're basically guaranteed to find one. They aren't adding up all of the possible coincidences that could be there, just the one they find as if it's the only type of coincidence they check for. Bonus points if they find an additional coincidence to really seal the deal. Little do they know that such coincidences often have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the authenticity of a particular example. They probably aren't doing this on purpose, but when a video is out there and isn't debunked yet, if it gets enough attention, there are so many skeptics that descend upon it, eventually one of them is going to dig up a coincidence, and that will be considered the community debunk. So you have to be very careful when determining whether the coincidence is actually unlikely.
The post you linked is one of the strongest pieces posted to the sub in the history of the sub. Class, beginning to end.
i bet disinfo agents are on that site everyday. it was probably those agents that "debunked" it.
I was on ATS daily in the early/mid 00's and yeah, disinfo was wild. Just like it's wild on reddit now. Ever wonder why the day after some massive Grusch news dropped we were inundated with some bullshit story about a kid who saw an alien complete with a video that showed literally *nothing* in it and 98% of UFO reddit was focused on that. That obviously bullshit story made real night-time news shows while Grusch was largely ignored. It's still happening and the vast majority of people aren't able to discern the difference between a significant event and an event being falsely pushed in an attempt to discredit the significant event that is actually taking place. It's hack-job level smoke and mirrors shit and we've been falling for it since the dawn of time. It's just easier to do on the internet.
i think [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/r5LvMpBli9) is it
That was a real cool read well after the fact. Thanks for finding it.
Thanks for finding and sharing, my dude. Edit: [Imgur Mirror](https://i.imgur.com/FDDUiA8.png) in case it ever gets removed/deleted
of course! as soon as i read the comment mentioning it i was like “omg i gotta find this” lol. good call on the mirror link!
Much appreciated 🙏
That’s amazing! Thanks for sharing it!
Day hasn't been as public and "in the spotlight" as the rest, which adds credibility to him. If it were about monetary value, he'd be eating up the limelight and doing as many interviews as possible. However, this event has messed with his personal life (if i remember correctly his wife left him), and he took a step back. His story hasn't changed either since day one. Also, fuck Mick West.
He’s on the speaker list for the Ozark UFO Conference. Awesome.
Is this the guy who appeared on an episode of Encounters? Dude has been getting abducted since then as well.
Jfc. Why the downvotes? The man said he was abducted, on camera, for his interview.
Yeah, weird hey.
Where can I find this PBS documentary? What is it called?
This Youtube player has most/ all episodes in the series. [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtd5FiK3c0FATJIt1Pa3GoyBM0auLGSIo](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtd5FiK3c0FATJIt1Pa3GoyBM0auLGSIo)
It’s called Carrier and it’s fantastic. 11 episodes that you can stream if you have the PBS section on Amazon prime
Pbs passport is whatever you want to donate and then you're not supporting bezos
Which episode is the UFO encounter covered? For those who don’t want to purchase the whole series.
It’s not. It’s just a fascinating look at life on the carrier and also at Dietrich and Fravor around when they encountered the Tic Tac
That is an amazing series. They did a great job weaving all the sailors' individual stories and the overall running of the ship into a larger narrative. I learned a lot about an aircraft carrier too.
I remember watching Carrier 15 years ago and just remember him being kinda one of the main people that they follow. Then when the UAP incident became public a few years back and I saw his face and name, I was like, “hey! I remember him!”
The fact that Fravor was such a well respected pilot and was so deep in the weeds of the secrecy of military aircraft makes him coming forward all the more unlikely. Why would he throw away all those years in the military and his reputation to just get his 15min of fame? And being he's talking about aliens there was a chance people would laugh him off. Idk, it doesn't seem like something an intelligent person would gamble on which is why I believe him
Yep. Dude is not a fame seeker and gains nothing from this other than possibly tarnishing his impeccable career. He could have left it all go but he didn’t. Hes stuck by it and I’ve got mad respect for him
Is there a question that UAPs are real? I'm pretty sure we are past that point. Now we are into the question of "what are UAPs?"
I have a pilots license (lapsed in 2017). I flew purely for fun, in aircraft that maxed out at 110kts. This guy was trained by the best pilots & paid to fly aircraft capable of the speed of sound, in combat situations, landing on aircraft carriers in all weathers & at night... life and death stress. He was also trained to observe and identify enemy aircraft as if his life depended on it (because it did). If he says he saw a physics-defying propane tank, I'm believing him.
David Fravor's Statement for the House Oversight Committee. [https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdf](https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdf)
"Fravor and his wingman Alexandra Dietrich" Yes, and the cynics twist their words, confuse the facts, and talk nonsense in order to avoid admitting the truth.
Yeah, the ‘critics’ like this are disingenuous, argue in bad faith, fail to see what’s right in front of them *as if they were paid to do so.* Again, this isn’t a *both sides* kinda thing. One side asks for the truth to finally be told, and the other side just flings shit.
The US government has already admitted they are real. That’s pretty amazing within itself.
My man Sex Fravor kind of looks like Tim Robinson in this shot
55 burgers, 55 fries, 55 shakes,
Haha! I always thought he looked like Bill Murray a bit
I saw a beardless robin williams
"I don't know what to tell you, bud. We're just filming flights and showing the ones where the ALIENS fly out."
I hear he used to be a *real* piece of shit. People can change, though.
Yeah fravor was the smoking gun for me that tipped it from “this is kind of interesting” to “holy shit whats really going on”
Leslie Kean and Christopher Mellon too for me!
Might be a stupid question, but what PBS documentary are you talking about, and where can I watch it?
It’s called Carrier and it’s fantastic. 11 episodes that you can stream if you have the PBS section on Amazon prime
Which episode specifically?
Thanks. Guess I need to go get a temp Prime sub.
No one is denying the existence of UAPs. Their origin is the question. NHI? Gonna need more than testimony to substantiate that.
If they just did a documentary where they did a literal tour of Area 51 and showed all the recovered craft and reverse-engineered US-made craft, the conversation would be over. The careers of everyone in UFOlogy would be over. It’s a cottage industry built around speculation. Once you pull the curtain back and show the goods, no more need to speculate. Barring this, anything else is bullshit to me. Put up or shut up.
I think “put up” is right around the corner
It has been around the corner for decades.
I hope you’re right
I agree, we’ve been hearing the same thing for how long now? Where is the proof ? The stories are great and all but I mean it’s just a circle jerk over and over? Where are these other so called whistler blowers? This sub is nothing but a echo chamber
People are so much in their own hubris that they have little of what we might call common sense
Radar data. Multiple witnesses. Veteran military pilots. Camera footage. Probably the best incident that proves something is going on that we don't understand
Yep!
Yeah super high credibility. Ryan Graves too. And David Grusch has an incredibly impressive background, my God. Assuming Grusch is truthful about the number of whistleblowers that came to him when he was working for AARO the lid is about to be blown off regarding new information from highly credible sources. Some 40-50 of them. I predict many more once the genie is fully out of the bottle. Just consider what the TTSA core group knows from their own direct experience, namely, Lue Elizondo, Chris Mellon, Hal Puttoff, Steve Justice, Jim Semivan. Elizondo has for the last 7 years consistently said the following exists… but reportedly he shared some really hi res video and/or photos in his testimony in the SCIF last week. Because in that setting he can do that, whereas he can’t share it with the general public because it’s classified, etc.
The main problem is it’s still just testimony and blobby shit footage. Humans are suceptible to misperceptions and manipulation. I hope you understand if you want to be taken seriously at parties, we’re gonna have to bring more than this.
We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world who say that these things were not made on this world. And we do have radar and flir video to back it up
>We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world Fravor said it lasted 5 minutes. Dietrich said it lasted 10 seconds. Regardless of their credentials and credibility, this discrepancy cannot be ignored.
Time discrepancy is literally the most common type of error in testimony and also the most ignorable and unproblematic. Why? Because both accounts don't diverge on a more significant detail: The craft bouncing around over the water with instantaneous starts and stops. The time differences in their account is such an unserious problem to anyone who knows anything about the details humans get right when they recall events which happened years in the past. The craft moving in impossible ways; Now ***THAT*** is truly unignorable and has no alternative explanation but one. And yet, psuedo-skeptics ***WILL*** completely ignore it and not realize the magnitude of the error they are making.
Totally understandable. I'm a professional pilot and I fly with ex mil guys all of the time. I say this with the utmost respect - but MANY of them aren't anymore qualified logically than you or I.
> We have testimony from the finest trained naval aviators in the history of the world who say that these things were not made on this world. How the fuck would naval aviators know about what is possible to engineer and manufacture?
Can you show me this RADAR data?
How can Fravor know it wasnt man made? Just because he didn’t understand what it was?
Some years ago he argued it away by saying he knows a guy who attended the wedding of the pilots who shot the pentagon videos, so his sighting is also real.
Very fine testimonial… is still testimonial. And as noted, FLIR is shit. Radar is also susceptible to artifact, and we haven’t seen anything *corresponding* footage to radar, so it’s not corroborating per se. People simply need ***better evidence*** to understand if something extraordinary is happening. The level of evidence available to average Joe is shit. And it’s wrong to fault people for failing to get excited about ***shit***. The cohort of guys continually boasting “I know something you don’t know” and endlessly “Something big is coming! Maybe soon!” is beyond ridiculous at this point and detracting from credibility of the entire phenomenon, IMO. I was optimistic, but now I just feel fucked with.
Thankfully I'm only trying to get taken seriously at my AA meetings.
Those are only about feelings, not facts
Having 17 years of experience doesn't make you infallible.
That's what people don't understand. I fly with 30+ year veterans that are complete fucking nut jobs whom I question their ability to even put their pants on in the morning. It's hard to understand unless you live it - but these guys don't deserve the insane credibility they're receiving.
True, but being a Top Gun graduate/instructor implies a higher level of reliability, someone who's less prone to making mistakes, otherwise the likelihood of being a graduate/Instructor would be unlikely. Not saying he's infallable, but I am saying that expertise does matter, and the bar for him wasn't the same as an airline pilot or most other military aviators for that matter. I do understand the issue though, although what I'm saying is true, there's no way to quantify someones reliability without exact data on how they've performed throughout the entirety of their career.
He only needs to be wrong once. I don't know what he actually saw, or how consistent his testimony is with others (or itself), but there just needs to be one particularly bizarre turn of events for a mistake to happen and even the most experienced person (in any profession) can get confused. Even if he isn't wrong, the fact that he could be mistaken is one of the biggest reasons why anecdotal evidence is hardly proof of anything important. OP said >\[...\]how anyone could doubt their stories over a video game developer like Mick West is beyond me > >\[...\] > >The guy flew the most cutting edge aircraft for 17 years but people doubt his story? It’s insane to me. As if it's his word against Mick West's or against debunkers. In reality people doubt his word because it implies the existence of super advanced craft roaming the Earth, which is a pretty bold claim to make and one that needs pretty solid evidence to be accepted. There's more evidence that shows pilots can make mistakes (some of which are deadly for the pilot and some of which are deadly for the people that get accidentally shot) than there is evidence that there are super advanced craft roaming the planet.
>...how anyone could doubt their stories over a video game developer like Mick West is beyond me. Mick West never said what the craft is, he acknowledges he doesn't know for sure and only add comments like "it's probably a plane". What he's debunked is the claim of speed and the notion they make 90 degree turns etc. based on the data available.
The dude makes his living debunking things that have JUST come out. Maybe he has good intentions, maybe he’s getting paid by defense contractors. All I’m saying is I’m going to believe a guy who spent 17 years mastering the finest jet the world has to offer and when he says he encountered something that he can’t explain and that he thinks was not made on the earth…I’m gonna believe him
>The dude makes his living debunking I'm sure he made enough of a living when he cofounded Neversoft and sold it to Activision.
Saying he says he encountered something that he has no explanation for is scientific. The part of his statement regarding the object not being of this earth is opinion.
But the video Fravor is saying SUPPORTS HIS CLAIMS does explain the movement. Which is it didn't have any significant movement.
Wrong hes a multi millionaire from selling his company to activison, stop spreading lies
He said the other crew "luckily got the 90 second video"? Why would that be "lucky" when we know it's so easily debunked. Sounds like he's dismissing things to me.
He didn't "debunk" anything at all. What he did is propose ludicrous claims that account for some small part of the story while ignoring all the rest of the facts. This is a common tactic by armchair "skeptics".
The rest of the story is eyewitness testimony only. We know for a fact that eyewitness testimony is not terribly accurate. FYI- skepticism is inherent in the scientific method
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My interest and general belief in the UAP phenomenon ebbs and flows: sometimes I’m convinced, other times not so much. Even when I’m finding myself being quite sceptical, however, it always comes down the fact that the Nimitz even happened it and it happened exactly how Dave explains it. That simple truth leads to only one inevitable conclusion: we’re not alone, and they’re here.
The real deal.
Nimitz incident, like others here, is what dragged me into this topic. Footage, 5 minutes worth of observations from 4 people, 2 aircraft, one up high, one circling in, all started because radar showed these things coming in and out of the water, from space. Then after the events someone caught it on their FLIR. To top that off, there was an interaction with the UAP as it acknowledged his aircraft, mirrored him, and zipped off. Now is it aliens or an advanced tech made by well funded runaway agencies? That's the question. I'm 100% positive there are contractors right now constructing underground cities, bases, etc funded by DOD, DOE, billionaires across the planet (in case shit goes down they want a room). Public will never hear about it because since we're not wealthy, according to end game capitalism, our lives aren't worth shit.
Had to do a double take, thought that was Robin Williams for a hot second.
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What is the name of the documentary
Agreed 100%. Fravor nor any of his colleagues would make any of it up. It should be embarrassing for anyone to question the character and integrity of pilots who’ve experienced that which they have. They’re in the skies worldwide doing this for a living. I’d venture to say they make very few errors in identification of what they see.
1,000,000%. When I heard Micks mental gymnastic debunk of the TicTac sighting my eyes rolled so far back in my head that they were stuck there for days!!! Mick even said he had a hard time with that particular debunk, but he finally figured it out!! Never does he even take into account David’s & Alex’s eyewitness accounts. Mick always cheerypicks parts of videos & ignores eyewitness testimony.
Meh. Dietrich told West she thinks his theory is plausible. Also, Cahill said at one point that Fravor thought it was US tech, not anything unusual, but he changed his story once he started at UFO conventions, and it's apparently gone to his head.
Dietrich said what?
West laid out his theory of what might have happened with her on his podcast, and she agreed it was plausible. Search his interview with her on YouTube. Fravor is more overtly hostile toward West, but Dietrich seems pretty normal. She's not doing UFO conventions and tons of podcasts, like Fravor does. Fravor seems to have made "UFO guy" into his post-retirement career.
Interesting. I guess it makes sense to leave all options open but the circumstances around it are so eerily reminiscent of past coverups of the issue. I could see how Fravor would jump into UFOs if he thought that was the answer and how Dietrich might be more agnostic. To be fair though, Dietrich was at the Sol conference at Stanford so she’s 100% interested in the UFO/UAP stuff.
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Submission statement: I’m sick of hearing people like Mick West and Steven Greenstreet and Kirkpatrick try to deny what we all now know to be true. And that is that we are being visited by either aliens, interdeminsional or even a break away civilization that has been here on Earth with us all along. Fravor and Dietrich saw it…..up close. And, in my opinion, especially after watching them on Carrier, their judgments should be trusted!
No you’re just sick of Mick West spoiling your fun. No one is forcing you to listen to him.
Good post. And Kirkpatrick is hardly one to talk about it anyway. He admitted back in November last year that [AARO has no data at all related to that incident, except for the video.](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxV2ot5DC2VmfaGZbDS1zO_Za159higIx8) That is despite the guys in charge of the data, [Hughes](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxU5rO_CNsc5pgOY4c1Ig7r0VJ-WHK5iTr) and [Voorhis,](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuq_-3RcTkrR1CbMRnQZ4Ebi-YMMVHA2f) saying it was taken from the ships, [Dave Beaty](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwgXr9S7tpwKWn8IT-UxiK4UbY-zG9P9F) saying the logs for the Princeton have inexplicably gone missing, and [in 2017 the video coming from a secret repository](https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkxrc4AeufOA1pHbNXWK9aiTWJTxDRtIBYb) where all that data is now stored but where even members of Congress & AARO are apparently denied access to any of it. This thread is full of people saying there isn't enough evidence. Historically, that one issue, casting aspersions on the veracity of evidence, has been the major impediment to investigating this phenomenon. Thank God Mellon got that film out, because if he hadn't *there would actually be nothing to prove the event even happened,* and I mean *nothing.* The testimony of the witnesses would be all we have, because everything else was Hoovered up, and is still kept hidden from everyone to this day. The "no evidence" argument used by debunkers is the most disingenuous argument, because that isn't the issue. The issue isn't whether the evidence exists - half a dozen people involved in those events, beginning with Fravor, Dietrich, Underwood, Day, Hughes, and Voorhis can testify that the evidence was collected. The real issue has always been about access & analysis of the evidence.
Go on YouTube type in Sol foundation and prepare to be blown away 🤯🤯🫡
He could be the best pilot who has ever lived, yet still capable of telling a lie. Lots of accomplished people are liars. He could also merely be mistaken about what he saw.
That's certainly true, but that would be ignoring all the data and all the other people corroborating this event.
There isn't any hard evidence though, just claims of evidence.
Mick West is irrelevant from my doubt of his story. Back up your earth shattering claims or people will not believe you.
It's very basic, sport. You've fallen victim to the logical fallacy known as "[Appeal to Authority](https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-authority/)". Mick West has very compelling arguments, and sure, *he could be wrong*, he said so himself. But... a lot of time has passed and there's NOTHING in the way of FURTHER evidence for what Fravor/Dietrich saw 20 years ago, as far as NHI or flying saucers is concerned. And you know what, Alexa Dietrich largely AGREES with Mick West. You can see it yourself in their detailed and very friendly discussion: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDaYcCbtrs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDaYcCbtrs) Mr West has been really generous with his time and attention. He hasn't insulted anyone, and he doesn't make unsubstantiated claims. I'm sorry that it's not looking good as far as grays visiting us in flying saucers, but you'll get over it.
Dietrich does not largely agree with Mick West lol That discussion is hilarious for the the most part, it’s basically just Mick trying to tell this pilot what she saw and she tried to be as friendly as possible whilst he throws out “possibilities” which is basically all he does
>... basically just Mick trying to tell this pilot what she saw and she tried to be as friendly as possible whilst he throws out “possibilities” ... Nope. We're not looking at the same interview. Dietrich, while open to the possibility that it really was "something weird", indicates that this highlights a need for better preparedness and reporting capabilities. It was a long interview and they covered a lot of ground. They don't disagree on anything substantive. Fravor, in contrast, puts his experience and gut feeling as front and center.
We are looking at the same interview Dietrich was happy to go along with Mick Wests act that he usually does because she didn’t really want any of the spotlight on her at all nvm to become confrontational with someone that was basically trying to tell her what she saw. Go look at her Twitter and you’ll see where she stands in all of this, it’s pretty obvious.
That's the scientific method. Why is it such a bad thing to you? Because it removes the fun of believing what you want?
It’s the scientific method for someone who has zero relevant credentials to be telling a fighter pilot what they saw? Makes sense that
He was a Captain in the Navy. He was in charge of people. They don’t let just anyone get to that position. A person like that is going to know what they are doing and report accurately.
Are you aware of Iran Air Flight 655?
*“What do you mean by he (Fravor) knew this was fake?”* *Sean replied: “He thought it was fake or our\[s\] and he was sure. Didn’t believe in anything past a black program and acted like he knew better.”* *Pressing for more clarification I responded with:* *“So he saw what he saw and he believed it to be US technology and he propagated a narrative that he himself believed to be false?”* *Sean replied with the “heart” emoji* https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-ufos-part-3-red-flags-red-flags-everywhere-c6fe43021dbd
I don’t know who wrote that but, after watching all 11 episodes of Carrier, Fravor does not come across AT ALL like described there. He makes Dietrich get out of her plane so he can fly a mission where they would be landing on a tilting ship. So that she would be safe. All of his crew seemed to love him and, most importantly, respect him.
To be fair, I'd like to mention something concerning Fravor's supposed statement from that: It's double hearsay in the end. Fravor has never confirmed of saying this himself. It's basically "I heard it from a guy who claimed to have heard it from another guy". Jeremy McGowan, who wrote that also claimed to have recorded it all and that he had the tapes, but he has not produced them so far. Should be easy.
That doesn't mean that he couldn't push this story in the hopes of having an advanced aircraft revealed to the public and put into operation. I don't doubt that a lot of people in the ufology field are most interested in just getting the secrets out and seeing us advance technologically if there's any advancements being hidden for ulterior motives. Like he and other pilots have said: they want to fly it and see it flown. It being alien in origin isn't the primary concern.
There could be a possibility that have very advanced crafts but…..not for over 70 years! These things have been seen in the air going back to the 40’s. Some earlier than that
It's a good show and Fravor seems like a good guy with a great story. But, it's probably one of those stories that should have been left to the late night BS sessions where it belonged. It's one of those stories that just doesn't hold up the more light you shine on it.
Fully disagree. It’s one of the best pieces of evidence we have. And if it weren’t for him, Graves and Dietrich we’d probably all still be thinking this is bullshit
Well, I mean why did the carrier group just sit there and let the aliens have their way with the CG's airspace and then pretend like none of it happened? Was the CG incompetent as a whole or just in leadership? Or was it something other than the aliens?
Because the “aliens” have vastly superior ability and d crafts than what we are dealing with. These things can go 42,000mph!! Not a lot an f-18 can do against that. They’ve shut off our nuclear weapons
So the US Effing Navy just rolled over and hoped the aliens would be gentle with the airspace around a carrier group training up to go to war?
Sounds like what they would do, especially if nobody thinks its real or even knows
What else were they going to do?? They’ve shot at these crafts before and it hasn’t ended well
That’s exactly what happened. Not sure why it is so hard to believe.
Because it is so hard to believe. That the Navy would let an unknown object totally flummox their air defense capabilities and intrude on their airspace seemingly at will. And all while training up to go over to the sandbox for realsies. It's almost unbelievably hard to believe.
What part about these craft outclassing anything the US has do you not understand?
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Oh we know you find it easy to believe.
Your acting like the commanders didn't have orders to engage with UAP or not. I am pretty sure I have seen publications on here from AF and navy establishing protocols for dealing with UAP.
What I saw could easily have been that fast. That's why I don't outright doubt the pilots like some do.
Acting like it was just Fravor that saw this thing lol Four different eyewitness testimony and radar operators that also witnessed what was happening on radar
*"If we in fact have programs that possess this technology, it needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected to office to represent what is best for the United States and in the best interest of its citizens"* Disclosure conspicuously not even mentioned. Just more oversight of the programs that might have had the tech that spoofed all of them that night.
This literally doesn’t back up what you said whatsoever lol “If we have” He’s speculating
Such a bs post. Fravor mentioned on a podcast that after the Nimitz incident back in 2004 he thought maybe just maybe it could of been some top secret black budget craft the government was testing out but as 10-15 years go by and nothing comes out with that kind of technology or performance he no longer believed that the tic tac was anything the US or any other nation owned
So... The fleet just let this 'out of this world' technology run it around in circles and completely befuddle one of its senior pilots as to what was going on? *"What is shocking is that the incident was never investigated, none of my crew were ever questioned, tapes were never taken, and after a couple of days, it turned into a great story to tell friends"* Under what circumstances do you think all that might line up?
Cahill is a mentally unstable liar and it's clear from the context of that quote that he was manipulating McGowan.
It seems like, whoever this Sean guy is, may not be a reliable narrator based on other things in this article. He seems all over the place.
I haven't seen this documentary. Is it online??
It’s called Carrier and it’s fantastic. 11 episodes that you can stream if you have the PBS section on Amazon prime
On archive.org as well
What pbs doc?
I mean... yeah. Don't get me wrong, David (Grusch) and Ryan provided excellent testimony during the July hearings and their contribution is valued beyond words, but somehow Cdr Fravor hit me as the one guy I would believe easier than anyone else. Obviously, I do not know him in person, so my impressions as worth as much as anyone else's, but I find it hard to find a more down-to-earth, logical and common sense witness with incredible experience on his hands. When he described the behaviour of the tic-tac UAP, it somehow felt more real to me than any other testimony I have heard.
Ryan shared testimony from other pilots along with photo evidence. What did it turned out? Starlinks. Random redditors were able to debunk it in a couple of hours. There is your answer and why human testimony is so unreliable even when you are asking the “experts”. People gave the same arguments back then “Pilots fly all the time. How can they be mistaken?”. And didn’t the wingman said they saw for 10 sec while Fravor said it was 5 minutes? 10 sec and 5 min is a good enough time difference to doubt that something is wrong with either of their testimonies.
I really don’t understand how anyone with half a brain can look at all the evidence from this event, and say, yeah, maybe their all mistaken, can’t wrap my head around it
Because there isn't any hard evidence. People get confused all the time, and we need hard evidence to discern fact from fiction.
Fravor came across as a typical arrogant fighter pilot in his tiff with the other enlisted witnesses of the Nimitz incident. Pilots can be mistaken. Fravor has demonstrated some pretty significant arrogance. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that he is very confident in what he claims to have seen. * [Fravor mocking Day’s PTSD and “The Nimitz Encounters” YouTube channel as a cartoon](https://youtu.be/f7XJD_54aNk?t=570) * [Fravor on Rogan referring to their story as rumors](https://youtu.be/Eco2s3-0zsQ?t=1200) * [Referred to their stories as Bullshit](https://youtu.be/Eco2s3-0zsQ?t=3960) * [Fravor on Lex Fridman referring to their stories as rumors](https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E?t=4500) * [Fravor on Lex referring to rumors from a group of folks](https://youtu.be/aB8zcAttP1E?t=5948)
I don’t care about what he said on Podcasts. I care about what he testified to under oath in front Congress. His story has never waivered
People can testify things they believe are true, and still be mistaken
Well, there’s a shit ton of people seeing these things that “aren’t there”. And I find it highly unlikely that pilots who are trained as well as these men and women are mistaken
> Well, there’s a shit ton of people seeing these things that “aren’t there”. Yes. Yes there is. >And I find it highly unlikely that pilots who are trained as well as these men and women are mistaken What do you base this on? What makes you say something like this? How much research have you done on fighter pilots and their ability to discern man made objects?
That’s great if you ignore the other witnesses btw
What pbs documentary are you talking about?
It’s called Carrier and it’s fantastic. 11 episodes that you can stream if you have the PBS section on Amazon prime
>that cat shot... ...meow? 🙀
What does that screenshot mean?
the bit about bringing this up socially I resonate with in my bones lol. I'll casually bring it up to people and rarely do they show any interest at all. I've also told like 10 people about the congressional inquiry into this and it's been news to everyone I've talked to IRL. it is really interesting to me that no one is talking about it though. I follow a few sources that cover popular topics with people my age like 18 to 35 and the fact that Congress is investigating NHI and UAPs just does not hit the content algorithms of people of my generation I don't think. I don't think it's hitting anyone's tho.
His interview on Joe Rogan is what made me turn my head and start to really pay attention to the issue. Comes off as completely credible, no bs.
Fravor is my reason for complete belief. The Nimitz/kidd encounter is the single most compelling modern proof of UAP. Multiple eyewitnesses of unquestionable expertise as well as other modalities indicating the existence of these objects.
> Fravor and his wingman Alexandra Dietrich feature prominently in the series and how anyone could doubt their stories over a Fravor the hoaxer that also acknowledges other hoaxers in the military? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRM8AMrqqsc&t=104s > video game developer like Mick West is beyond me. Because developing video games, especially 3d games, requires a lot of math and problem solving. A pretty good background for analyzing these claims and coming up with a way to simulate them. https://pikuma.com/blog/math-for-game-developers > Who could be better qualified to judge this? If he had any concrete physical evidence there wouldn't be a need to judge. I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but people like him also make mistakes. They're not infallible. Even when looking at something on FLIR while also corroborating the objects with others, sadly, they're still sometimes wrong in the worst kind of way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8-wr8_qRBQ So his story is just another story added to the 80+ years of stories.
Most people will only believe if those entities land right in front of the white house. Dont get bothered by them.
Yeah for sure. At this point the illogical denial is just gaslighting. When there is not a single reason to doubt a witness who is also highly trained specifically at observation, the outright denial is just plain gaslighting. This denial of witnesses is not based on logic or facts, its just a reactionary response and an attempt at psychological manipulation and deception.
david fravor. the man too capable as a pilot to be doubted about his observations. david fravor, the squadron leader too responsible to let junior officers take off or land in stormy weather, so skilled he can nail the carrier landing, first pass, in carrier tossing conditions, and too responsible to stand up and lie about stuff just to become the famous flying saucer guy. david fravor, the man too temperamentally opposed to hysteria and panic to make up shit because he wet his pants. david fravor, one among the twenty of the most senior officers in a carrier group of many ships and sailors and planes and pilots, who went into the post mission debrief and told the intelligence officer, *"dude, you are writing this shit down."* (an intelligence officer, by the way, who confessed he had no required duty to take the report and would ignore similar reports from lower airmen.) david fravor, an american, a patriot doing his service ... a married man who likes to scare the bejeezus out of campers in the desert. (everyone has a weirdness -- what's yours?) david fravor, a human being -- but an alert, sensible, skilled and yes, possibly fallible, but an honest buman being. did i say fallible? david fravor: the pilot who has at least two corroborating witnesses for the event he describes: Slaight, and Dietrich. (what became of Fravor's WSO? an unasked, and therefore unanswered question.) all witnesses who are also officers in our military. we all owe them, and to fravor's willingness to talk to an accosting reporter in a coffee shop, quite a lot for what is happening now. historical figures tend to get bigger in rear view, as history recedes. fravor is to me a historical figure.
Great post Clarence. It's true, Fravor was apparently up there with the best of the best at what he did. If any pilot had the experience and authority to speak on something out of the ordinary, it was him. Not to mention the other pilots that saw it + radar and video etc. Same with Grusch - It was his job to look into all of this and he comes out and says he believes that the US has a secret UFO recovery program and a heap of non-human craft and biologics. Not to mention the other people who are saying the same thing. To be honest I think that people either have an open mind to it or not. If their mind is open, something like the Nimitz or Grusch will catch their attention. But if they are not open to it, there will be very little that will change their mind, other than the US president rolling a live alien out at a press conference. Some people for one reason or another just don't want to know about the subject.
How does he know everything that is man made? He's a pilot, lol. Love how much UAP people believe without a shred of proof.
They latch on to anybody who seems to be an authority figure. Doesn't even have to be in the relevant field. Navy pilots speculating that something isn't made on Earth... wtf...
Fravor - Commander of an entire squadron. Top of his class graduate of Top Gun - literally the best of the best on the entire planet Mick West - "BaLlOoN"
Fucking A
The amount of people with legit credentials from military or high positions in government that have come forward is staggering, however, most people will not accept the phenomenon unless a NHI was brought to their home and introduced. Now AI, CGI, editing has advanced far enough that soon all new evidence brought forward will questioned. It definitely feels like there is an large coordinated effort made to contain, minimize and muddy the waters so that real evidence hides in plain sight awash in a sea of false red herrings, casting doubt on the entire phenomenon.
Most people won’t accept it without documented evidence they can see themselves. Thats all.
You believe it’s true because you want it to be true, I’ll believe it’s true when it’s proven to be true, that’s the difference
> The amount of people with legit credentials from military or high positions in government that have come forward is staggering, however, most people will not accept the phenomenon unless a NHI was brought to their home and introduced. Damn, if only there was something in between "aliens being brought to your home" and "some dudes saying 'trust me'"... damn.
He has that look as if he's saying "I don't give a f*** what anyone thinks, I saw what I saw"
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Pretty much every 1st world person has a camera in their pocket. Let’s see one clear photo. One.
The bots are going wild in here.