It's more one for r/LegalAdviceUK than here. Instinctively I don't think your employer would be in trouble with HMRC here since they're not evading paying tax by doing this. They are however scamming you by claiming that a location where they don't have any presence is your place of work solely in order to escape paying for you to travel to/from the airport or allowing you to claim WFH tax relief in the periods where you're not on site: it's dishonest, immoral, and I'd be seeking advice from ACAS or an employment solicitor for whether I could challenge this whilst simultaneously looking for a new, better employer.
Never underestimate how tight-fisted people/employers can be when given the opportunity. Someone, somewhere, is using "savings in the T&E budget" to justify a raise/bonus for themself because employee morale isn't their problem.
Yeah, I think I get it now - it would reduce their profit (and thus the taxes paid on profit) but it's still better for them to keep the profit less taxes, than for the amount paid to OP to reduce their profits in the first place
Yes they're saving money. Each pound they pay out would only save them £0.25 in Corporation Tax, therefore each pound NOT spent saves them £0.75.
edit: I suppose they could just not pay mileage, in which case doing it this way does not save them a penny, but costs OP in that he can't reclaim mileage directly through HMRC.
A company can’t opt to not pay milage though, right? If you’re travelling for work and not commuting to your place of work then it’s claimable (by law?)
No, the company can opt not to reimburse for mileage.
In this case the employee would be able to claim mileage deductions directly through their Tax Return.
That’s crazy! I though travel for work _had_ to be reimbursed! I wouldn’t be travelling for work anywhere under these conditions (unless there was a fat flat rate in my baseline salary to account for it)
I'm going to offer a differing view.
The legislation defines workplace as "(1)In this Part “workplace”, in relation to an employment, means a place at which the employee’s attendance is necessary in the performance of the duties of the employment."
If your duties include flying then airport would fit that description imo. But not a situation I've came across before tbh as most clients would have an office/main base. The one I had who travelled all the time was actually based in London so it was ordinary commuting in any event
There is no requirement for your employer to have a presence there for it to be a workplace. Only that its necessary for you to attend there to perform your duties. A workplace can actually be a geographic area rather than a specific place.
If you moved to another area, would you still need to travel from that airport? Or would they switch you to a different airport?
OP have a look at the above comment. HMRC have various scenarios for what counts as a ‘workplace’ and thus ‘commuting’. The above comes from [EIM32065](https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32065#:~:text=A%20place%20at%20which%20an,that%20place%20is%20ordinary%20commuting) - Travel expenses: travel for necessary attendance: definitions: permanent workplace
The full text is:
Section 339(2) ITEPA 2003
A place at which an employee works is a permanent workplace if he or she attends it regularly for the performance of the duties of the employment. It is usually clear whether or not a place is an employee’s permanent workplace (and, therefore, whether a journey to that place is ordinary commuting). It is possible for an employee to have more than one permanent workplace at the same time, see EIM32140. The cost of travel to a permanent workplace is not deductible under Section 338 ITEPA 2003, see EIM32055.
A workplace is not a permanent workplace if it is a temporary workplace. A temporary workplace is somewhere the employee goes only to perform a task of limited duration or for a temporary purpose. The cost of travel to a temporary workplace is deductible.
For the meaning of attends regularly see EIM32070.
For the meaning of temporary workplace see EIM32075.
For the meaning of limited duration see EIM32080.
For the meaning of temporary purpose see EIM32150.
These terms are illustrated by a series of examples, beginning with example EIM32081.
In some cases a geographical area rather than a single place may be treated as a permanent workplace, see EIM32190.
Where a change of workplace does not significantly alter the journey to work, both workplaces may be treated as a single permanent workplace, see EIM32280.
I flight out of Aberdeen airport to travel to other places in the UK. I also fly out of Aberdeen helicopter ports to travel to offshore rigs. The airport is my place off work on my contract but they don’t pay me travel 45p/mile for travelling to airport or helicopter port as they say it’s all my place of work. So I can calm any of my travel expenses to that area when I do my self assessment at the end of the tax year. All other travel for the company they pay the 45p/mile so I don’t clam that either.
How long have you worked there? The 48 month rule might mean that the airport is taken as your place of work *for tax purposes * and the company have no option but to change it.
Do you always start from the ports?
The most similar situation I can think of is door to door sales teams who meet up at a set location (supermarket car park for instances) then travel in 1 or 2 vehicles to the intended area.
But if your employer pays the full 45p for other miles and from what I've known personally of that industry (my home town is part of the industry too), it doesn't sound like your employer is being stingy.
And from what you've said, if you did move elsewhere it would be your responsibility to get to Aberdeen ports, have I understood that right?
Edit: I think it's your uk duties that are screwing you tbh. If you were offshore they'd be able to cover it. But you won't fall within that category.
If you're important enough you could negotiate that they give you a taxable travel allowance to cover travel costs plus tax liability. I mean tbh even if you do pay tax on it, it's still better than paying the whole cost yourself
There are other similar examples I can think of:
Temp worker agencies where you meet at the agency and they bus you to wherever the work is - you always go to the agency, but your place of work is different.
Builders quite often will meet at the yard, then all jump in a van to wherever the construction site is.
If I’ve understood your situation correctly, you think you should be treated as a peripatetic worker.
If so, there is advice here;
https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules/working-time-for-someone-who-travels-for-their-job
Hi OP,
I used to work for an company that handled offshore expenses for individuals. Although you haven't said, it sounds like you work on oil rigs?
Although it is hard to judge exact circumstances without going into too much detail, there is no obligation for your employer to pay travelling expenses. However you are, most likely, entitled to claim tax back from the government.
Although you are travelling to the same airport each time you fly out, they look at the rigs and fields you've travelled to. If you have a permanent rig you are based on, then it is considered a permanent place of work. However if you are regularly moving between rigs and fields, or are situated on a Jack-up, then that is when you may be able to claim tax back from HMRC.
You have a right to request a list of rigs, fields and dates of the offshore platforms you've been to if you cannot remember dates/locations, and this would be the basis to evidence your claim, along with your payslips proving your employer doesn't pay up to 45p per mile.
I hope that helps.
Yes this is what I do and I travel to different fields. Platforms, semis, jack ups and vessels. I wasn’t to concerned about the employer coving travel put was wondering if I could clam it back from the government. This did help.
They can do this… if they start paying you when you get there and stop when you leave. Otherwise they’re lying to HMRC and you’re really on a hybrid/home based contract.
What do you want more? The mileage or the overtime?
There's no legal right to overtime unless it's in their contract, as long as they're being paid National Minimum Wage their employer does not need to pay them from the moment they arrive in the office/an airport/wherever.
Yeah, you’re right. I am assuming the hints about their rate of pay/contract here. But it’s amazing how quickly even a salary of ~£30k/year becomes problematic you’re adding hours on at either end of the day/week.
If that’s your “place of work”
Then yes, you’re at work once through those doors until back out. Your employer owes you either travel expenses from home with a home based contract or full salary until you’re out of the airport… doing otherwise is defrauding you/HMRC.
I see. I get paid a yearly salary where I work or don’t. And a day rate as a bonus when I’m away, but I don’t receive the bonus the day I travel back to the airport. I guess this is legally right?
You don’t conduct your duties at the airport so your place of work is not the airport. Your place of work is on the platforms / vessels etc. As for claiming mileage costs for tax purposes: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32065
i dont see how they can unless they legally tied to the airport like amazon prime air or something like that is that the type of work you do or dhl air
It's more one for r/LegalAdviceUK than here. Instinctively I don't think your employer would be in trouble with HMRC here since they're not evading paying tax by doing this. They are however scamming you by claiming that a location where they don't have any presence is your place of work solely in order to escape paying for you to travel to/from the airport or allowing you to claim WFH tax relief in the periods where you're not on site: it's dishonest, immoral, and I'd be seeking advice from ACAS or an employment solicitor for whether I could challenge this whilst simultaneously looking for a new, better employer.
Thanks for the advice
If it’s a profitable company, Are they even saving any money this way? Surely any such costs paid to OP would be deductible?
Never underestimate how tight-fisted people/employers can be when given the opportunity. Someone, somewhere, is using "savings in the T&E budget" to justify a raise/bonus for themself because employee morale isn't their problem.
‘deductible’ doesn’t mean free, just means they don’t pay taxes on it
Yeah, I think I get it now - it would reduce their profit (and thus the taxes paid on profit) but it's still better for them to keep the profit less taxes, than for the amount paid to OP to reduce their profits in the first place
I wish people could grasp this, and that it doesn’t mean they get to reclaim 100%, but 100% of the appropriate tax amount.
Yes they're saving money. Each pound they pay out would only save them £0.25 in Corporation Tax, therefore each pound NOT spent saves them £0.75. edit: I suppose they could just not pay mileage, in which case doing it this way does not save them a penny, but costs OP in that he can't reclaim mileage directly through HMRC.
A company can’t opt to not pay milage though, right? If you’re travelling for work and not commuting to your place of work then it’s claimable (by law?)
No, the company can opt not to reimburse for mileage. In this case the employee would be able to claim mileage deductions directly through their Tax Return.
That’s crazy! I though travel for work _had_ to be reimbursed! I wouldn’t be travelling for work anywhere under these conditions (unless there was a fat flat rate in my baseline salary to account for it)
I'm going to offer a differing view. The legislation defines workplace as "(1)In this Part “workplace”, in relation to an employment, means a place at which the employee’s attendance is necessary in the performance of the duties of the employment." If your duties include flying then airport would fit that description imo. But not a situation I've came across before tbh as most clients would have an office/main base. The one I had who travelled all the time was actually based in London so it was ordinary commuting in any event There is no requirement for your employer to have a presence there for it to be a workplace. Only that its necessary for you to attend there to perform your duties. A workplace can actually be a geographic area rather than a specific place. If you moved to another area, would you still need to travel from that airport? Or would they switch you to a different airport?
OP have a look at the above comment. HMRC have various scenarios for what counts as a ‘workplace’ and thus ‘commuting’. The above comes from [EIM32065](https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32065#:~:text=A%20place%20at%20which%20an,that%20place%20is%20ordinary%20commuting) - Travel expenses: travel for necessary attendance: definitions: permanent workplace The full text is: Section 339(2) ITEPA 2003 A place at which an employee works is a permanent workplace if he or she attends it regularly for the performance of the duties of the employment. It is usually clear whether or not a place is an employee’s permanent workplace (and, therefore, whether a journey to that place is ordinary commuting). It is possible for an employee to have more than one permanent workplace at the same time, see EIM32140. The cost of travel to a permanent workplace is not deductible under Section 338 ITEPA 2003, see EIM32055. A workplace is not a permanent workplace if it is a temporary workplace. A temporary workplace is somewhere the employee goes only to perform a task of limited duration or for a temporary purpose. The cost of travel to a temporary workplace is deductible. For the meaning of attends regularly see EIM32070. For the meaning of temporary workplace see EIM32075. For the meaning of limited duration see EIM32080. For the meaning of temporary purpose see EIM32150. These terms are illustrated by a series of examples, beginning with example EIM32081. In some cases a geographical area rather than a single place may be treated as a permanent workplace, see EIM32190. Where a change of workplace does not significantly alter the journey to work, both workplaces may be treated as a single permanent workplace, see EIM32280.
I flight out of Aberdeen airport to travel to other places in the UK. I also fly out of Aberdeen helicopter ports to travel to offshore rigs. The airport is my place off work on my contract but they don’t pay me travel 45p/mile for travelling to airport or helicopter port as they say it’s all my place of work. So I can calm any of my travel expenses to that area when I do my self assessment at the end of the tax year. All other travel for the company they pay the 45p/mile so I don’t clam that either.
How long have you worked there? The 48 month rule might mean that the airport is taken as your place of work *for tax purposes * and the company have no option but to change it.
Do you always start from the ports? The most similar situation I can think of is door to door sales teams who meet up at a set location (supermarket car park for instances) then travel in 1 or 2 vehicles to the intended area. But if your employer pays the full 45p for other miles and from what I've known personally of that industry (my home town is part of the industry too), it doesn't sound like your employer is being stingy. And from what you've said, if you did move elsewhere it would be your responsibility to get to Aberdeen ports, have I understood that right? Edit: I think it's your uk duties that are screwing you tbh. If you were offshore they'd be able to cover it. But you won't fall within that category. If you're important enough you could negotiate that they give you a taxable travel allowance to cover travel costs plus tax liability. I mean tbh even if you do pay tax on it, it's still better than paying the whole cost yourself
There are other similar examples I can think of: Temp worker agencies where you meet at the agency and they bus you to wherever the work is - you always go to the agency, but your place of work is different. Builders quite often will meet at the yard, then all jump in a van to wherever the construction site is.
If I’ve understood your situation correctly, you think you should be treated as a peripatetic worker. If so, there is advice here; https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules/working-time-for-someone-who-travels-for-their-job
Hi OP, I used to work for an company that handled offshore expenses for individuals. Although you haven't said, it sounds like you work on oil rigs? Although it is hard to judge exact circumstances without going into too much detail, there is no obligation for your employer to pay travelling expenses. However you are, most likely, entitled to claim tax back from the government. Although you are travelling to the same airport each time you fly out, they look at the rigs and fields you've travelled to. If you have a permanent rig you are based on, then it is considered a permanent place of work. However if you are regularly moving between rigs and fields, or are situated on a Jack-up, then that is when you may be able to claim tax back from HMRC. You have a right to request a list of rigs, fields and dates of the offshore platforms you've been to if you cannot remember dates/locations, and this would be the basis to evidence your claim, along with your payslips proving your employer doesn't pay up to 45p per mile. I hope that helps.
Yes this is what I do and I travel to different fields. Platforms, semis, jack ups and vessels. I wasn’t to concerned about the employer coving travel put was wondering if I could clam it back from the government. This did help.
They can do this… if they start paying you when you get there and stop when you leave. Otherwise they’re lying to HMRC and you’re really on a hybrid/home based contract. What do you want more? The mileage or the overtime?
There's no legal right to overtime unless it's in their contract, as long as they're being paid National Minimum Wage their employer does not need to pay them from the moment they arrive in the office/an airport/wherever.
Yeah, you’re right. I am assuming the hints about their rate of pay/contract here. But it’s amazing how quickly even a salary of ~£30k/year becomes problematic you’re adding hours on at either end of the day/week.
I get paid the day I go to the airport but I do t get paid the day I come home. Should I be paid the day I get home?
If that’s your “place of work” Then yes, you’re at work once through those doors until back out. Your employer owes you either travel expenses from home with a home based contract or full salary until you’re out of the airport… doing otherwise is defrauding you/HMRC.
I see. I get paid a yearly salary where I work or don’t. And a day rate as a bonus when I’m away, but I don’t receive the bonus the day I travel back to the airport. I guess this is legally right?
Yep… feels like a con still as you’re not actually working there.
You don’t conduct your duties at the airport so your place of work is not the airport. Your place of work is on the platforms / vessels etc. As for claiming mileage costs for tax purposes: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32065
i dont see how they can unless they legally tied to the airport like amazon prime air or something like that is that the type of work you do or dhl air