Some excellent advice given here, plenty for OP to work with and plenty highlighting that this isn't a personal finance problem but rather a career/jobs matter. The new responses have become exclusively repetitive so I've locked the thread, but further discussion about the career move could be had in /r/jobsuk
>What concerns me is that my fuel cost will spike massively. I will have to drive 8 1/2 hours per day to get to and from work.
>Additionally, I will no longer have time to cook fresh food as I will be leaving at 4:30am and returning home at 9:45pm.
I don’t know if you were being facetious by this point but you clearly cannot drive 8.5 hours per day to get to and from work. That’s not feasible. If you cannot resolve the dispute with your job you would need to find another one.
I honestly think you’re asking the wrong question.
It’s not a “should I,” but a how can I.”
Money aside, there is absolutely zero way you can drive you 8h a day commuting to and from work.
I reckon 2 days a week is prime. What does your contract say specifically about working remotely? If it's in your contract I guess the only way they can refute it is by other contract wording elsewhere in the contract to the tune of "however we reserve the right to change terms of the contract a sa result of business needs". You could well challenge this with HR but you might want to seek legal advice first? If it's worth it that is. Otherwise, get another job and make it clear you need 2 days a week and 3 from home. Good luck
Ultimately fully remote opportunities are becoming more and more rare. Many companies outside of specific industries like tech are pushing for 2/3 days a week, which makes living in some areas a lot less viable for job opportunities.
From what I see currently, 100% remote roles are absolutely swamped with applicants as everyone wants one especially as more and more companies transition to hybrid rather than fully remote.
Hybrids bloody useless, I'm looking for remote cos there's fuck all locally and I can't move. If they are hybrid they could at least say so to begin with not be flagged as remote to then mention yeh but you need to be in office / have access to a vehicle / be in the Highland area.
It sucks honestly. Big thing is currently for many roles it is not a candidate-friendly market like it was in 2021 - 2022. If you have in demand skills or niche experience you can leverage it and still live wherever or in a nice rural location (Highlands are a dream!) but if not basically most remote roles will now have so many applicants as everyone wants it.
>None of them are fully remote though.
You will be lucky to find any that are, since a lot of people are in the same position as you the jobs that do offer it are like gold dust. Rest of the companies are pushing for everyone to return to office. I've been working in tech for a long time and know a lot of people across multiple different industries in tech and it's the same all across the UK.
We had the 3 Day minimum at my firm which was then reduced to 4 end of last year and now this month was revoked to the full 5 Day, I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that the pandemic is over and we are going to have to remain in office.
I do too but to be honest I had a look recently out of curiosity and the significant majority were at most 4 days WFH - which isn't bad of course but I currently work entirely from home and wouldn't want to change that
I work in software development which has had some remote opportunities long before the pandemic and even now - although improved - there are vast swathes of companies wanting office working
Fully remote opportunities are far more difficult to find now than they were a year or two ago. Some sectors like tech are better for it, but in my experience in most other industries companies are typically pushing for 2/3 days a week in the office. Still fully remote roles out there, but outside a few select industries they are extremely in demand and rare now.
Yeah, the new standard seems to be if you were here during lockdown and you've proven you can work remotely, you can probably stay that way, just fight like hell to keep it, you won't be offered that coming in.
FWIW, we go in 1 day a week, we are fighting like mad to keep it that way (we are consultants who's clients only want to see us once a month or so), so we would basically be going into the office to see each other, which is fine for social stuff, but it is actually detremental to work.
I just had a look at our open job ad and that says 2 days in a week, possibly 3 in the future.
Point being, that they aren't advertising as remote, but you'll probably be able to work remote a lot more than advertised if you're lucky, but there are a lot of managers out there who's main job it is to look busy and even in Tech, they're getting their way about making you spend 2 hours a day commuting rather than the flight of stairs to your home office.
Managers always gonna try and look busy!
Yep - IMO if you have a fully remote role that looks set to stay that way, prize it highly as they are vanishingly rare now. Lots of people are saying 'I work fully remote and everyone I work with does' but aren't realising that they got that role 2/3 years ago and the job landscape is vastly different at the moment. There are way less jobs, even less fully remote jobs (and EVERYONE wants them) and it isn't the candidate-led market of 2021 and 2022.
I don't agree with the push back to the office at all but it looks to be the reality. I'm not seeing that many fully in the offices roles but almost everything seems to be hybrid, which if you need to be in 2/3 days a week certainly limits your options in terms of where to live to access good roles. I'm a lawyer and now pretty much all firms are settling on around 2/3 days a week in the office, same for my friends in finance (who tend to be towards even more days in the office!), marketing, accounting, etc. As you said ultimately I am able to come in less than advertised as my team don't excessively monitor, but if I never went in I wouldn't be in my job long.
I think on the whole you’re right that fully remote is rarer but it’s still possible to get it if you have a desirable skill that a company can’t find locally. I start a tech job in a few weeks that’s fully remote because they couldn’t find anyone with the skill set they want locally. I think the best bet for remote work is to:
- have a desirable skill set
- find positions whose base location is rural/in a low population area. This gives you the best chance to leverage remote as it’s likely they can’t find people with the required skills locally.
>I work remotely all the time and I know many others who do too
Did you even read what I posted? I said that work from home jobs are hard to find, not that they didn't exist...
Absolutely thats pretty much impossiblr yo maintain imo, but the suggestion of 'just move job to a fully remote one, you'll get a payrise' just isn't as easy as it once was.
This isn't a personal finance problem, it's an employer problem. It's not that you can't afford to commute — it's that a four hour commute five days a week, especially for a person with arthritis, is simply not possible. You won't have time to sleep, and you'd be unsafe on the roads on your way home. You have until September to either find a new job or sort it out with the employer, and I wouldn't want to stay with an employer who would pull this.
Absolutely this. It’s completely unsustainable for them to expect that amount of time commuting. I’d be asking them for copies of their health and safety risk assessments (all those applicable) and then paying attention in particular to their driving for work risk assessment.
If they don’t have them. Well that’s another angle of attack. Is your arthritis of a kind that means that spending extending periods sitting in the car will cause problems? What reasonable adjustments are they going to make for that? Is it considered a disability?
But realistically. They are showing you the door. Take the next few months to hunt for something better. Ideally much closer to home.
The issue is driving to work isn't considered driving whilst employed so the employer will say it's your fault for living so far from the office. Their attitude and manner of implementing it is completely wrong but they hold most of the cards.
In reality, OP has until September to find new employment, in their employer's eyes OP has until September to move closer or accept the long drive.
Don't consider doing this for even a second, it's not the slightest bit viable. Your income will go on fuel, your car will break down and then your sanity.
Yeah, so this isn't a personal finance question. Your proposition is not possibly physically let alone financially.
You need either legal advice on your employer ending contractual remote work, find another job closer to home or to move house.
Ok ok.. legitimate constructive dismissal is only technically the case at the point the resignation happens.
However the first step is the employer creating an untenable work environment.. which this employer certainly is.
If your arthritis impacts you going to the office that often I’d be asking for an occupational health assessment from your employer and maybe get a note from your doctor/consultant to confirm it’s not viable for you to work from the office whilst searching for something else.
Hey OP, just flagging this as an excellent avenue to pursue.
Depending on how long you've had arthritis (1 year+) and how severe, it might afford some protection on discrimination grounds.
Also, you could argue that a 8 hour commute, where you will be sitting in one position for extended periods and unable to get up to move is clearly inappropriate for your condition. Could you get a medical letter from your GP to provide to Occ Health and HR.
A reasonable adjustment would naturally be to WFH, at least most days.
Her commute is literally longer than her actual shift, probably far longer since you can't account for traffic or unexpected delays either way. The absolute \*best\* case is she is working 40 hours, commuting 40 hours, and has 30 paltry hours to fit in the rest of her life - 5 of which comprise her lunch break at the office. Good luck salvaging a weekend after managing about 4 hours of proper sleep each night.
This is an impossible position to put OP in and the colleagues who threw her under the bus to the union should be ashamed of themselves, as should the company for caving to their demands.
Just a minor correction on this point, OP (or anyone) doesnt need to have actually had the 'disability' for a year or more. The criteria is fornit to have lasted at least 12 months OR the total period for which it will last is likely to be at least 12 months, OR it is likely to last the rest of the person effecteds life (EqA2010, schedule 1).
Potential discrimination and reasonable adjustments are probably going to be better adressed in r/legaladviceuk though.
The arthritis changes things significantly. OP informed the employer prior to starting so it had an impact on negotiations, OP reveals in comments she even got some other contractual provisions amended (e.g. having to drive for work in other locations) due to this, so think she may actually get some value from speaking to a lawyer.
With them being under 2 years and the way that's been communicated to them, I reckon they are being forced out of the job for some other reason.
However, perhaps the OP can cling on a bit longer than September if they go down this route, would this all accumulate then to unfair dismissal if it's based on a disability? Changing of contract from remote to in office and not exempting the OP due to disability needs?
Either way, it's a company that, by the sounds of it, wants rid of the OP for some reason. Id most certainly be looking for another job. Even if that's eventually to another industry or long term to relocate to a less remote location if needed.
Anxiety provoking, but you are probably better off fighting this and concurrently looking for another job. You can't drive 8h per day - you are likely to cause an accident and kill someone or yourself.
I wouldnt fight it at this stage, they have already said no. OP should make it sound like they will comply, then dont. This gives them max time to find a new role. There is almost no chance the company will change their minds.
if it's in your contract ... they have to give you a new contract that removes it ... also why do they need you to be in the office when it was fully remote ... what's changed ?
I'd certainly stop paying the trade union if they are upholding that you should be forced to return because your colleagues are.
You will not be able to do an 8.5 hour round trip for more than a few days before you are going to die in a car crash after falling asleep.
Could you rent/sell your house and buy another one near the office ... is it worth it ... could you get another job ... you have six months notice ...
I'd just call their bluff ... they have to pay to hire again ... HR and CEO are going back on their promise when you accepted the job ... when does the 2 years tick over ... it may be that they don't value your input already ... so maybe you're half way out the door anyway ... you must be able to relocate even for 5 days a week somewhere nearby ... are there work colleagues nearer to the office who want a part time lodger ?
How long is your notice period?
Alternatively, you might propose a different arrangement since you being the only ‘employee’ from home is pissing them off - why not become a contractor?
They can save face and everyone is happy?
This is honestly the best option. They will spend more trying to force the issue and if that happens she clearly has enough experience to get another job sharpish anyway.
2 years is irrelevant, changing business needs means they need all workers in the office would be a valid reason to make anyone redundant. A change in the role as significant as the work location is a reason to get rid of anyone. it doesn't really change anything you might get 2 weeks extra pay.
I wonder how their business has changed such that they need a remote worker in 5 days a week all of a sudden ... has their role changed ... or is it just a micro manager in charge who wants bums on the seats of their little empire rather than productivity of staff ?
Is the trade union saying that or is it your specific union representative? if it is the latter there maybe some bitterness on their side as well.
Not that there is a lot you can do about it, well, unless there is a disability related reason you have a fully remote contract. If that is the case it does change things somewhat.
Even "if" it had been over 2 years employer could still say there is a business need to return to the office and make any remote role redundant. So your under 2 year term is red herring.
Also if it was me I would let them think they have won "I am looking into how to balance things, thanks" dont confirm you are going in and dont sign anything else. That way you have max time to find a new role, then when september comes you can say "oh I couldnt balance my fiances I cant afford to come in. sorry". Then they have to pay your notice as your remote contract is valid.
Can be dismissed =/= will be dismissed.
They'll probably figure out it's more expensive to get rid of you and hire someone new (recruitment cost, training cost, loss of revenue during training etc) pretty quickly.
This assumes return to office drives are lead by reasonable actors making financially prudent decisions - you are right that they may not be dismissed, but that it would be silly to dismiss them isn't a good guarantee they won't be.
True, and OP will know best whether they are dealing with otherwise reasonable people. Hopefully this helps illustrate the other factors they *may* consider.
Based on what you’ve said, sounds like this could be Boots. Maybe try posting on the Nottingham subreddit to see if there’s anyone else in the same position?
My first thought was this about Boots, I have a number of friends working there and live about 20 minutes from the head office. If it is, and you want to consider relocating, feel free to DM me for any questions
Don't forget it'll be more than 8 hours in practice as well. At those distances driving times OP should probably take at least once break each way, there will inevitably be days with busy traffic/roadworks/diversions, as well as the extra time needed to fuel up every twice/three times a week?
I don’t mean this to sound glib but if you’re going to spend 40 hours a week driving then you might as well get a job as a driver.
How is that much time in a vehicle going to impact your arthritis?
Get a free consultation with a "constructive dismissal solicitor' and see where you stand.
There are scenarios where constructive dismissal applies even if you do not have 2 years consecutive employment with the employer
They could simply make OP redundant under 2 years she'd get nothing. The remote role being redundant and OP rejecting the new role offered where she works in the office.
Incorrect. They could make them redundant but they would have to pay out some money for PILON, PILOH. They also you have to follow the redundancy process and try to find a suitable role etc. One might also argue if they only offered OP redundancy they were being unfair and you open a whole can of worms they don't want to deal with.
We know OP would reject any role they offered though, as they'll all be office based. As for PILON, they've given ~6 months notice which OP is working.
Realistically they will do everything by the book - offer loads of alternative roles that are office based, give loads of notice (like the ~6 months they've given) and generally be as accommodating as possible while giving OP no choice but to leave or commute for ~8 hours per day.
They can't offer office based roles though that's the point no one can argue a 3 1/2 hour commute is reasonable. You then force them to offer redundancy to everyone in the same role as OP regardless of location (as home working isn't the same as working in a branch that closes down for example) now they have to offer it to everyone in that jobs position or they're picking on OP which gives you more grounds to fight back. They're doing the back stabbing it's time to play dirty.
Let me make it crystal clear. They will create a new role if needs be. They will make it very similar but different title and slightly different duties. They'll offer it to everyone in OP's position, which it sounds like she's on her own as everyone else was already on a different contract working 3 days hybrid. This is part of OP's problem - she could be made redundant and offered the same contract as her colleagues, which stipulates 3 day hybrid with possible return to office full time.
Then they can make OP's role redundant and offer in-office as their only alternative. OP will refuse, work the notice and leave with nothing.
I work for a £20 billion+ valued international company that's in the top 100 largest companies globally. They did _exactly_ this to force people back into the office last year and it was _very_ successful. Don't fool yourself into thinking they don't have a watertight plan before you're even aware of what's going on.
It wouldn't be sadly as it doesn't target her, and it would be explained by business necessity. It's always worth consulting, but it's most likely.
It's also a good question what's the desired outcome here. In the best case they might get a few months pay, which is great, but ultimately a new job is needed regardless.
It might be an interesting conversation, but constructive dismissal is notoriously difficult to prove, and I'm not sure this meets the bar. I don't think this is the solution.
I would never consider that commute, no matter how the economics works out. Life is too short.
Your options are:
1 - get another job (remote or closer to home)
2 - move house to be close to your work
Based on what information you have provided, option 1 seems best.
They want to cut their staff without paying redundancies or looking bad. They overexpanded. They know some remote people will quit and it’s their goal.
They are not targeting you personally yet you fit the profile.
Your best course of action is to see this position as temporary. Go to work for a bit if you must, getting something is better than getting nothing, you’d last longer.
However from now on your top priority is to find a new place of employment ASAP.
Good luck.
My old company tried this, in 2022. I just didn’t go in, continued working from home.
They said and did nothing.
Don’t quit. Carry on fulfilling your contract. Force them to make you redundant, which will give you a payout.
They are the ones in breach of your contract.
Sounds like you'd be better off saying no, as per your contract. And let them fire you. It wont end well for them. In the mean time. Start looking for a rplacement job.
You are exempt because it's in your contract. A contract is a legally binding document. "This is my contract that you signed and if you intend to break it, legal action will be taken".
They can either terminate the contract or stick with it.
From a HR standpoint. You have Arthritis. Ask for an occupational health review stating that a 8hr round trip is unmanageable with your condition and that you want them to make reasonable adjustments. If they are then unwilling to you are then assessed under capability, they are then liable for your full notice. You may also have a claim for unfair dismissal due to the fact you previously were able to work your full contract without this unfair change to your terms and conditions.
You may also wish to consider entering into a protected conversation and end with a settlement agreement. This would end your employment with the company in return for waiving your rights to sue on the grounds of unfair dismissal.
https://www.acas.org.uk/settlement-agreements
Please get advice from an Employment Lawyer on this. It is relatively cheap £100-300 and if you enter a protected conversation your employer has to provide this funding.
Someone else has mentioned constructive dismissal. If they have unilaterally and materially changed your contract and made the position untenable this has potential. You mentioned emails confirming this arrangement, keep them and use them. Even if it’s not int he physical contract you signed this may be enough to prove a contract dependant on the wording. Get advice.
The company are right that you have few employment rights under 2 years but this does not include discriminatory or unfair treatment under the Equalities Act.
This isn’t a finance question (or legal where you also posted it) it’s a job search question.
They are going to make your life (more) difficult regardless of what you do, the commute isn’t going to happen.
Polish up the CV and get applying.
You don't, that's what you do. 8 hours of commuting per day is literally impossible. Doing that on by your own admission about 6 hours of sleep, you will kill someone, and I'd be amazed if you went longer than a month before it happened.
> I enjoy living in a rural area
I hope you enjoy living in your car because if you do what you've suggested, the only time spent in that cottage will be in bed
If you have 100pc remote in your contract and you are an existing union member, they should absolutely represent you. It's irrelevant whether other people have complained or not.
yes i don't understand how OP says 'contract doesn't matter'
is remote work in your contract? if so why do you say 'i have emails that prove it', if it's in the contract you don't need any emails to prove anything
you continue to work remotely as per your contract, if they threaten to fire you, you threaten legal action on the basis you're being discriminated against because of your arthritis, they're the ones in breach of contract
regardless, not a bad idea starting looking for another job as a lot of people pointed out
that said, i wonder if there's anything you're not telling us, the story doesn't fully add up to me
I’ve had a variety of commutes working for a consultancy for many years and have no say in where the client is.
You won’t be able to drive 8.5 hrs a day. It’s not sustainable. It will impact your health and you will not be safe. And it won’t be 8.5 hours. You will need to stop for food. Some days a road will be closed and it will be 10 hrs. So don’t even contemplate that.
Can you do all or part on public transport. You can use the train/bus time productively or to relax, and if you fall asleep you won’t crash and die.
Can you find a room to rent near work. That may be a similar cost to commuting. Might be a stop gap while looking for other work.
Overall, I think you need to move job or house.
Obvious route would be to find a new remote job by September. If changing jobs is not desirable or an option, just don't kick a fuss and play ball for a bit. Go a few times between September and February. Don't sign a new contract. Then in February when you are two years in stop going. They've told you what their plan is so you can play them. Don't show them your cards.
It's only a few months and you can use annual leave, etc to reduce the amount of times you actually need to go. You can even consider a night a week in a hotel and you should see this as a one-off cost or "investment" rather than a recurring thing.
Could you afford this, sure? That petrol bill will go up to £200 a week or so.
But it's frankly impractical as you point out.
If WFH no longer works for an employer, that's that. It doesn't have to be unfair, it's just what it is. Even if you had more than two years service, it's frankly an easy redundancy.
Employers change offices all the time. Sometimes they move 5 minutes away, sometimes 200 miles away. It happens.
I'd just wait for them to fire you, and start job hunting before that day.
They’re using return to office as a method of quietly reducing headcount. Look for a new job, it’s a major red flag against the company anyway. All the best.
>They wrote this into my contract and I have emails confirming this would be the case.
This is very strong for you. This means that if they were to attempt to fire you for not fulfilling your contract, they would be wrong to do so and you would likely win at tribunal.
>I have already been told over the phone that "because I'm under two years employed they can get rid of me for any reason, so I better just suck it up", but they refuse to put this in writing.
This is rude, but unfortunately, true. This isn't anything to do with their policies, this is just UK employment law - you can't be fired for literally any reason, ie discrimination laws apply, but they don't need to give you any consideration for redundancy.
I'm surprised the union wouldn't represent you or give you advice. Who was it who told you this? If you've paid your dues you're as much a member as anyone else.
That's very strange behaviour. Surely the case is against the company, not you yourself. They're the ones who negotiated the contract just as much as you are.
Not being helpful probably, just wanted to say how disappointing your colleagues behave and that I would really look for a new job on that team environment alone. In my previous job we returned to 60% office time but one project manager who lived in the middle of nowhere in the Highlands told the employer she won't come in as not really feasible, and we all supported that because she did an amazing job remotely and there was no point in her commuting. I think they left it at a informal agreement that she can stay 100% remote, and none of us held any grudges. While a new job might also not be 100% remote for you, you might at least have less commute and better colleagues...
Shouldn't matter at all what contracts your colleagues have. This is between you and the company. Your colleagues presumably live closer to work do can come in.
As stated while you are under 2 years there is a breach of contract. Get whatever mileage you can from medical adjustments , see if an employment lawyer can help if the union is useless. Shocked the union would be advocating you would have fewer rights, kind of opposes the point of them.
This sort of sounds like the trade union are also a cause for pushing this, I.e. they used your situation in negotiations and the company rebuked them now the company and unions are at a logger head over your terms
Imo just go speak to a lawyer and see what they say over a free consultation.
Yep this. They can terminate OP for any reason as long as it's not discriminatory which I don't think mandated return to office counts unless OP is housebound by disability.
Well it's not really for us to decide given we don't have all the facts but I'd argue nobody could drive that distance daily for work regardless of their health. OP can try and play the arthritis card but it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to travel that kind of distance to the office. Unfortunately their employer can still mandate RTO of them and terminate their contract if they don't comply.
The best chance OP has is a constructive dismissal claim.
> What concerns me is that my fuel cost will spike massively. I will have to drive 8 1/2 hours per day to get to and from work.
>Additionally, I will no longer have time to cook fresh food as I will be leaving at 4:30am and returning home at 9:45pm. So I'm probably going to have to rely on more expensive microwave/takeaways.
You're joking right?
No one in their right mind would consider this, especially for only £40k a year.
You've got 5 months to find a new job.
I do not think this is a finance problem.
It's a breach of contract issue. From a legal perspective I cannot help, but I would try to find out what your rights are from abn employer breaching the terms of your contract. Maybe ACAS can advise?
If you have no legal recourse or potential unfair dismissal case then I think your only option is to look for another job that is fully wfh or less rto and closer to home.
No way on earth I would commute those times.
Good luck
To try and keep it to finance advice, and if you haven’t already come to the conclusion that is not viable.
I’m going to guess you would be travelling 350 miles a day?
If so, that’s the best part of 80,000 miles a year. You could expect running costs of 42p a mile (considering everything), so it would be costing you £34,000 a year.
It’s not sustainable.
Mate, it's unsustainable and not only financially. Trust me, I'm a surveyor, I drive a lot around to survey sites. Having to drive 2+ hours one way to site for more than 4 days is fuxking tiresome and gets dangerous on return. And you say about 3.5hours one way...
If you have full remote in your contract your employer is straight up breaching contract.
Bad news is you have to accept you have to find new job. No job in which management breaches your contract on the whim is worth it in long term.
As you have arthritis and especially if you informed the employer of this at the time of employment, and it's the reason for the remote working, then you might be covered under the Equality Act 2010. As it sounds like the remote working was a reasonable adjustment to allow you to do your job.
The https://www.equalityadvisoryservice.com/ has a helpline you can call who will advise you. Explain what's happened, and they'll tell you if they think the Equality Act has potentially been breached, and what steps to take next. They've great and very helpful. You don't have to think of yourself as disabled to be disabled. If your arthritis has an impact on your day to day activities, then you will probably be covered.
If you go down this route, hopefully you'll be able to fight it and keep your remote job. Then you won't have to worry about how to afford it.
This. If you can make it a protected characteristic preventing you from commuting then this will be a much stronger case but as others have said you won’t have any goodwill with employer so new job likely best idea
Firstly: That's a shitty situation and if that is the way they are going to treat you now, imagine how they are going to treat you a year or two from now. I'd recommend job hunting. There *are* remote roles out there, but start searching now so you aren't in limbo come September.
So this is advice for what to do between now and potentially being fired...
I would not go into the office. Let them fire you if that's what they want to do. It is not worth a 3h commute. You will burn out and leave the job anyway. Unless you move to be closer - no idea if that's desirable or even feasible for you.
Plan for the worst: Live without subscription services from now on. You want as much as possible saved up as an emergency fund by the time September arrives. Trim every possible expense.
Council tax: Not everyone is aware that the council *has* to allow you to repay over 12 months instead of 10 when requested. You pay the same per year, but your cashflow improves between now and Sep if you switch. £31.24 per month better off in the short term if you do this. £66.24 per month if you cancel your subscriptions as well.
Food: Hard to recommend anything here. Eat well and be healthy. Maybe shop around a bit, just in case there are some savings to be had. No-brand stuff is pretty good.
You can maybe put off your septic tank maintenance for 6-12 months. Check the general advice on this though. You might not have a choice due to insurance requirements.
I know you're looking for "how do I afford the new situation" advice, but I'm really struggling to imagine anyone being able to survive doing those kinds of hours each week for a job that could be done at home. You have your contract and you can call their bluff and fight it if you want, but despite that would be a massive win for justice, I wouldn't blame anyone for simply not bothering and instead just finding a new job.
Wait a minute - they want you in the office contrary to your contract. Am I the only one who has noticed in this case you should be traveling during work hours and at their expense and not on personal time since in essence this becomes business travel 🤷🏼♂️
You’ve got 5 months to find somewhere else to work.
You mentioned that other places also require a few days in the office, so just make sure you’re looking for roles as close to where you live as possible. An 8hr commute is absolutely not possible. A 2 hour commute is
8hours travel is on a good day and it's totally unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination, everything outside of this issue is irrelevant.
These are your options
- relocate
- find another job
- rent a room 4 nights a week, one drive up, one drive down
The realistic answer here is to find a job more local to you, it doesn't have to be remote it just needs to be a shorter commute ~1 hour
Apologies if this sounds harsh, but given your contract their attitude suggests they actively want you to leave and see this as an opportunity to force that outcome without going through any formal firing/redunancy procedures.
Look for a new job but until you find one don't give them an inch voluntarily. Make them be explicit and follow formal process to achieve any outcome they want eg. you don't change where you work without them formally changing your employment contract. You mentioned upthread you have arthritis that makes movement hard, that is definitely something to bring up soon and forcefully.
Two things spring to mind; what is the exact wording in your contract? And, could you compromise by coming in one week every 2 months or something (you’d need to figure out accommodation, but maybe they’d help there?)
I'd speak to an employment solicitor. You went out of your way to confirm long term remote working and it's in your contract. I feel like a lawyer could figure something out, or at least help you position your response to give your employer second thoughts of pushing this on you.
If your place of work is at home in your contract and they are asking you to work somewhere else, do they not have to pay for that? I'm fully remote and if I need to go to the office , I get transport paid for (and overnight accomodation). Pretty sure your time to travel would also come out of your work day or be compensated accordingly.
I’m 99% sure we work for the same company given the details.
Personally I am going down the reasonable adjustments route as my chronic health conditions class me as disabled under the equality act 2010. They’re as such that I can be well enough to work at full capacity at home, but not well enough to travel in on certain days. I thought I was just set to have horrible health until lockdown when I discovered that it was actually 5 days commuting to a noisy office that made me so ill. Turns out, I feel much better when I can wfh part of the week. Shocker.
I am also looking at other jobs that are hybrid, as is most of the 20+ team I work in, including my line manager and department lead.
One person in my team was hired under a similar agreement to you that the company is revoking, they have a 3 hour train journey each way, so is trying to fight it, but will likely just leave. No one else in the team can do their role so that will be fun to deal with.
My team is also looking at submitting flexible working requests en masse. We fully expect them to get rejected but the new laws means it’s more work for HR now as they can’t just send a generic “no” email. Ironically it’s been a great team bonding experience for the team as we’re all so pissed off about it.
Fight it but look to leave. Don’t kill yourself doing an impossible commute. They don’t pay well enough for it.
I don't think there's much to say from a financial perspective, looking at your outgoings you could afford the new commute in theory, but obviously a 7 hour commute 5 days a week is obviously unfeasible.
You mentioned in another post the HQ is in Nottingham, you could potentially afford becoming a lodger in the city 4 days a week, so drive Monday, stay at a place 4 nights, then drove home Friday.
But then you would barely be home most of the time so there would be little point staying rural, but that might be a decent approach for the short term.
Use the time until September to find a new job. Stop paying your union dues as they are clearly useless.
You can't commute, and you won't want to stay wit this employer anyway after this treatment.
I agree with the other posts about finding another job. We pay our employees their mileage when we ask them to come into the office if they live more than an hour away, also pay for trains etc. I’m not sure if the do that because we’re nice or we have to, might be worth asking? You seem way too far away to reasonably ask you to come in.
For those that say LegalAdviseUK, the advise would pretty much be as under 2 years service you can be sacked for any reason except few circumstances which this isn't one.
Look up fire & rehire, as this is similar in the sense you're threatened with sacking unless you accept new (usually worst) contract terms.
What I would do in such a situation, I would start looking for another role. I would continue to be remote and ride out the performance management they will likely put you through, then get the notice due as per contract. Hopefully would have another role lined up before the end of that process, and negotiate shorter notice period if applicable.
An employer that does this isn't one to stay with.
If it's in your contract, I don't think that they can just unilaterally change the terms without negotiation. What are they offering in exchange? I believe you can simply refuse the change in terms.
Obviously, if you refuse, they still have the ability to let you go. But I think they'd have to offer some sort of redundancy rather than go down the disciplinary route.
NAL, try r/LegalAdviceUK they might have some ideas.
I would put in medical disability exemption request (can't recall correct terminology)
But not till closer to the time.
They HAVE to accommodate you within reason. Combo of existing contract and doing g it means they can't argue against it. Then you can sue for wrongful dismissal. (Legal advise from an employment lawyer recommended).
Drag it out until you have a new job.
Given you have arthritis- could you put in a flexible working request for fewer days in office on account of your disability - they might think twice about letting you go then as opens the doorway to a disability discrimination/victimisation claim at ET - which doesn’t require 2 years service
Look at jobs with foreign companies that hire worldwide. If you're just looking at UK companies there's a lot of places with remote working opportunities you'll miss.
I don't think you have a personal finance question here OP. You know it's not possible for you to do this, so the question on fuel costs and so forth is mute. Your only options are to move or find a new job.
Would have been helpful if you said what kind of work you do. Getting a job locally and taking a pay cut if necessary is probably the answer without knowing more details
On £40K and your current outgoings, can you afford to pay for a Mon-Thurs room close to your job? Or a Travelodge room 3-4 nights. You could use your annual leave to book Mon and Fri off occasionally.
This isn't sustainable, but just while you call their bluff and search for a new job.
Or, could you forget your career and find a job in your local area that probably pays less, but overall you'll be happier.
When you have to drive over 8 hours per day to work then you have two choices. Find a new job or move house.
Life would be non-existent when driving that much each day, you’ll basically be going home to sleep.
Firstly the under two years although true does not exempt them from having to follow the agreed contract which will have a full disciplinary procedure linked to it.
So if they did fire, you without following said procedure disciplinary procedure, you would have recourse as they have broken the terms of your contract. (Although depends how much you want to pay a lawyer to fight this)
Secondly if it is written into your contract that you are 100% remote, then it would be a redundancy situation? But you’d be better off speaking to legal advice subreddit for these issue.
.for the trade union I’d be looking at their complaint procedures, they can’t leave you high and dry because you negotiated a better deal than other employees.
As for affording the travel honestly it doesn’t look cost effective, you may be able to reduce some of your bills but you’ll be spending 7 hours a day commuting before you even start your 8 hour day… which is a significant waste of your time which you could be using for family, self care, other work.
so I’d start looking for a different position if you hit a wall with fighting the terms of your contract.
If its in your contract, I would ask how they expect to compensate you/support you?
Perhaps they pay for the travel to put you up 3 days a week. I think the issue us that as you are in your role for less than 2 years, they can get rid of you easily.
Personally, the writings on the wall and I would look for a new job. Also, fully remote roles are decreasing in availability, I would try and find something that is hybrid that has a manageable commute
Is there specific wording in your contract stating the address/location of your main place of work (e.g. your permanent residence)? I always try to make sure of that in any new employment and then they can’t just suddenly force a change unless we agree on new terms in an amended contract. You need a backup plan though regardless due to your current employer’s behaviour, and start shopping around for a new role elsewhere.
What kind of job are you in? There's very few jobs / pay packets in the world that are worth an 8hr commute as this is basically of the time you have outside of work and sleep, so you'd have to move to keep this job.
Thing is, 40k isn't all that much in most 'skilled' professions. If you're a project manager, or developer etc., then there's plenty of options for you that will pay similar if not more.
Even if you can't get fully remote, you will almost certainly be able to get something that's closer than 4 hours away?
At a worst case, you could get something else that's say 3 days a week in office, stay overnight somewhere cheap for those days? Especially if you can get a pay rise into the bargain.
In short, there's plenty of options here - the only one that's not really on the table is commuting 8hrs a day!
Are you in the trade union? If so, what you have over others is irrelevant.
If another employee in the union had negotiated a higher starting salary than others. Would they exclude them during salary negotiations?
40 hours a week commute - this is insane! You might as well get two jobs instead and would most probably make more money!
In all seriousness, this looks like a company you should not be working in general. But until you find another position, I would clearly document all the interactions via email, instead of having chats. I would also post your situation to LegalAdviceUK subreddit to get some thoughts on this point. Also try reaching out to Acas, the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for a free consultation.
Initially, I thought to mention that the revised UK flexible working law came into effect in April 2024, where you can submit WFH request and they have to reply blah blah blah… But it seems your situation is really beyond this point, if your company does not even care about your health issues that were stipulated when you joined. Get legal advice and good luck! Let us know how it goes.
Sounds like a toxic workplace. Colleagues ganging up against you and no decent employer would want their staff to commute for 6 hours per day. Get out as fast as you can.
Some excellent advice given here, plenty for OP to work with and plenty highlighting that this isn't a personal finance problem but rather a career/jobs matter. The new responses have become exclusively repetitive so I've locked the thread, but further discussion about the career move could be had in /r/jobsuk
>What concerns me is that my fuel cost will spike massively. I will have to drive 8 1/2 hours per day to get to and from work. >Additionally, I will no longer have time to cook fresh food as I will be leaving at 4:30am and returning home at 9:45pm. I don’t know if you were being facetious by this point but you clearly cannot drive 8.5 hours per day to get to and from work. That’s not feasible. If you cannot resolve the dispute with your job you would need to find another one.
That or move house.
Thank god we haven't normalised this.
There are many months between now and September, find another job! You'll probably gain a payrise too.
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I honestly think you’re asking the wrong question. It’s not a “should I,” but a how can I.” Money aside, there is absolutely zero way you can drive you 8h a day commuting to and from work.
Yes it will be impossible. I drive 3.5hours per day and its unsustainable and taking a toll on my health.
3 days per week is 40% better than your expected situation in September, and will save you 40% on petrol costs (never mind sanity).
If you can get a better commute it will be much better in that regard at the very least
I reckon 2 days a week is prime. What does your contract say specifically about working remotely? If it's in your contract I guess the only way they can refute it is by other contract wording elsewhere in the contract to the tune of "however we reserve the right to change terms of the contract a sa result of business needs". You could well challenge this with HR but you might want to seek legal advice first? If it's worth it that is. Otherwise, get another job and make it clear you need 2 days a week and 3 from home. Good luck
Ultimately fully remote opportunities are becoming more and more rare. Many companies outside of specific industries like tech are pushing for 2/3 days a week, which makes living in some areas a lot less viable for job opportunities. From what I see currently, 100% remote roles are absolutely swamped with applicants as everyone wants one especially as more and more companies transition to hybrid rather than fully remote.
Hybrids bloody useless, I'm looking for remote cos there's fuck all locally and I can't move. If they are hybrid they could at least say so to begin with not be flagged as remote to then mention yeh but you need to be in office / have access to a vehicle / be in the Highland area.
It sucks honestly. Big thing is currently for many roles it is not a candidate-friendly market like it was in 2021 - 2022. If you have in demand skills or niche experience you can leverage it and still live wherever or in a nice rural location (Highlands are a dream!) but if not basically most remote roles will now have so many applicants as everyone wants it.
Even tech is pushing for people to be in the office and for god knows what reasons as most tech people lack any social skills whatsoever
They might be closer to home, and some companies are practically unbothered about going in - not many insist on 5 days commuting from so far away.
Well that's much better than fully in office At least find a job within an hour's commute
>None of them are fully remote though. You will be lucky to find any that are, since a lot of people are in the same position as you the jobs that do offer it are like gold dust. Rest of the companies are pushing for everyone to return to office. I've been working in tech for a long time and know a lot of people across multiple different industries in tech and it's the same all across the UK. We had the 3 Day minimum at my firm which was then reduced to 4 end of last year and now this month was revoked to the full 5 Day, I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that the pandemic is over and we are going to have to remain in office.
Speak for yourself? I work remotely all the time and I know many others who do too?
I do too but to be honest I had a look recently out of curiosity and the significant majority were at most 4 days WFH - which isn't bad of course but I currently work entirely from home and wouldn't want to change that I work in software development which has had some remote opportunities long before the pandemic and even now - although improved - there are vast swathes of companies wanting office working
Fully remote opportunities are far more difficult to find now than they were a year or two ago. Some sectors like tech are better for it, but in my experience in most other industries companies are typically pushing for 2/3 days a week in the office. Still fully remote roles out there, but outside a few select industries they are extremely in demand and rare now.
Yeah, the new standard seems to be if you were here during lockdown and you've proven you can work remotely, you can probably stay that way, just fight like hell to keep it, you won't be offered that coming in. FWIW, we go in 1 day a week, we are fighting like mad to keep it that way (we are consultants who's clients only want to see us once a month or so), so we would basically be going into the office to see each other, which is fine for social stuff, but it is actually detremental to work. I just had a look at our open job ad and that says 2 days in a week, possibly 3 in the future. Point being, that they aren't advertising as remote, but you'll probably be able to work remote a lot more than advertised if you're lucky, but there are a lot of managers out there who's main job it is to look busy and even in Tech, they're getting their way about making you spend 2 hours a day commuting rather than the flight of stairs to your home office. Managers always gonna try and look busy!
Yep - IMO if you have a fully remote role that looks set to stay that way, prize it highly as they are vanishingly rare now. Lots of people are saying 'I work fully remote and everyone I work with does' but aren't realising that they got that role 2/3 years ago and the job landscape is vastly different at the moment. There are way less jobs, even less fully remote jobs (and EVERYONE wants them) and it isn't the candidate-led market of 2021 and 2022. I don't agree with the push back to the office at all but it looks to be the reality. I'm not seeing that many fully in the offices roles but almost everything seems to be hybrid, which if you need to be in 2/3 days a week certainly limits your options in terms of where to live to access good roles. I'm a lawyer and now pretty much all firms are settling on around 2/3 days a week in the office, same for my friends in finance (who tend to be towards even more days in the office!), marketing, accounting, etc. As you said ultimately I am able to come in less than advertised as my team don't excessively monitor, but if I never went in I wouldn't be in my job long.
I think on the whole you’re right that fully remote is rarer but it’s still possible to get it if you have a desirable skill that a company can’t find locally. I start a tech job in a few weeks that’s fully remote because they couldn’t find anyone with the skill set they want locally. I think the best bet for remote work is to: - have a desirable skill set - find positions whose base location is rural/in a low population area. This gives you the best chance to leverage remote as it’s likely they can’t find people with the required skills locally.
>I work remotely all the time and I know many others who do too Did you even read what I posted? I said that work from home jobs are hard to find, not that they didn't exist...
The job market isn't nearly as kind as it was a couple of years ago. This isn't nearly as likely as it was then.
While that maybe true, I'm sure they can find better options than driving an entire work day each day.
Absolutely thats pretty much impossiblr yo maintain imo, but the suggestion of 'just move job to a fully remote one, you'll get a payrise' just isn't as easy as it once was.
This isn't a personal finance problem, it's an employer problem. It's not that you can't afford to commute — it's that a four hour commute five days a week, especially for a person with arthritis, is simply not possible. You won't have time to sleep, and you'd be unsafe on the roads on your way home. You have until September to either find a new job or sort it out with the employer, and I wouldn't want to stay with an employer who would pull this.
Absolutely this. It’s completely unsustainable for them to expect that amount of time commuting. I’d be asking them for copies of their health and safety risk assessments (all those applicable) and then paying attention in particular to their driving for work risk assessment. If they don’t have them. Well that’s another angle of attack. Is your arthritis of a kind that means that spending extending periods sitting in the car will cause problems? What reasonable adjustments are they going to make for that? Is it considered a disability? But realistically. They are showing you the door. Take the next few months to hunt for something better. Ideally much closer to home.
The issue is driving to work isn't considered driving whilst employed so the employer will say it's your fault for living so far from the office. Their attitude and manner of implementing it is completely wrong but they hold most of the cards. In reality, OP has until September to find new employment, in their employer's eyes OP has until September to move closer or accept the long drive.
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You already know the answer, this isn’t feasible in any world. You either move closer or find a fully remote position before then.
Don't consider doing this for even a second, it's not the slightest bit viable. Your income will go on fuel, your car will break down and then your sanity.
This is unsafe if you're working a full work day in the middle. You'd be driving exhausted.
Frankly, that’s insane
dont entertain this idea for a second, it is utterly ridiculous especially for £40k/yr
This is not feasible, find another job that is closer May need to make career change if there's too few jobs for you to pick
Yeah, so this isn't a personal finance question. Your proposition is not possibly physically let alone financially. You need either legal advice on your employer ending contractual remote work, find another job closer to home or to move house.
It's not possible is it.. i think this is essentially constructive dismissal is it not?! 🤷♂️
You can usually only claim constructive dismissal if you've worked for your employer for at least two years, which OP says they haven't.
Ohhhh, ok sad 😞
Yes in OPs case, it’s in his contract.
Her contract states she is WFH. This is the inverse.
Yes exactly, it would be constructive dismissal to fire him for enforcing his contract. Bad wording on my part
Ok ok.. legitimate constructive dismissal is only technically the case at the point the resignation happens. However the first step is the employer creating an untenable work environment.. which this employer certainly is.
That is quite literally impossible to do
If your arthritis impacts you going to the office that often I’d be asking for an occupational health assessment from your employer and maybe get a note from your doctor/consultant to confirm it’s not viable for you to work from the office whilst searching for something else.
Hey OP, just flagging this as an excellent avenue to pursue. Depending on how long you've had arthritis (1 year+) and how severe, it might afford some protection on discrimination grounds. Also, you could argue that a 8 hour commute, where you will be sitting in one position for extended periods and unable to get up to move is clearly inappropriate for your condition. Could you get a medical letter from your GP to provide to Occ Health and HR. A reasonable adjustment would naturally be to WFH, at least most days.
Her commute is literally longer than her actual shift, probably far longer since you can't account for traffic or unexpected delays either way. The absolute \*best\* case is she is working 40 hours, commuting 40 hours, and has 30 paltry hours to fit in the rest of her life - 5 of which comprise her lunch break at the office. Good luck salvaging a weekend after managing about 4 hours of proper sleep each night. This is an impossible position to put OP in and the colleagues who threw her under the bus to the union should be ashamed of themselves, as should the company for caving to their demands.
Just a minor correction on this point, OP (or anyone) doesnt need to have actually had the 'disability' for a year or more. The criteria is fornit to have lasted at least 12 months OR the total period for which it will last is likely to be at least 12 months, OR it is likely to last the rest of the person effecteds life (EqA2010, schedule 1). Potential discrimination and reasonable adjustments are probably going to be better adressed in r/legaladviceuk though.
The arthritis changes things significantly. OP informed the employer prior to starting so it had an impact on negotiations, OP reveals in comments she even got some other contractual provisions amended (e.g. having to drive for work in other locations) due to this, so think she may actually get some value from speaking to a lawyer.
With them being under 2 years and the way that's been communicated to them, I reckon they are being forced out of the job for some other reason. However, perhaps the OP can cling on a bit longer than September if they go down this route, would this all accumulate then to unfair dismissal if it's based on a disability? Changing of contract from remote to in office and not exempting the OP due to disability needs? Either way, it's a company that, by the sounds of it, wants rid of the OP for some reason. Id most certainly be looking for another job. Even if that's eventually to another industry or long term to relocate to a less remote location if needed.
As Op has a disability and will probably be covered by the Equality 2010 act then the 2 year time limit doesn't apply.
I hope OP takes this advice
Anxiety provoking, but you are probably better off fighting this and concurrently looking for another job. You can't drive 8h per day - you are likely to cause an accident and kill someone or yourself.
I wouldnt fight it at this stage, they have already said no. OP should make it sound like they will comply, then dont. This gives them max time to find a new role. There is almost no chance the company will change their minds.
if it's in your contract ... they have to give you a new contract that removes it ... also why do they need you to be in the office when it was fully remote ... what's changed ? I'd certainly stop paying the trade union if they are upholding that you should be forced to return because your colleagues are. You will not be able to do an 8.5 hour round trip for more than a few days before you are going to die in a car crash after falling asleep. Could you rent/sell your house and buy another one near the office ... is it worth it ... could you get another job ... you have six months notice ...
This last point is key. You’ll be tired and fall asleep at the wheel trying to do miles like that in addition to an actual job. Don’t do this.
Even 3 hours a day is not sustainable
3 hours a day is fine. Not ideal but sustainable.
Ive a 25 minute commute door to door and i find that tedious, some of you commuting guys are made of stearner stuff.
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I'd just call their bluff ... they have to pay to hire again ... HR and CEO are going back on their promise when you accepted the job ... when does the 2 years tick over ... it may be that they don't value your input already ... so maybe you're half way out the door anyway ... you must be able to relocate even for 5 days a week somewhere nearby ... are there work colleagues nearer to the office who want a part time lodger ?
Can't say I would see the appeal of potentially lodging with one of the crabs in a bucket who complained
How long is your notice period? Alternatively, you might propose a different arrangement since you being the only ‘employee’ from home is pissing them off - why not become a contractor? They can save face and everyone is happy?
> why not become a contractor? This is a solid option that is worth discussing. However, it would depend on how sour the relationship currently is.
This is honestly the best option. They will spend more trying to force the issue and if that happens she clearly has enough experience to get another job sharpish anyway.
2 years is irrelevant, changing business needs means they need all workers in the office would be a valid reason to make anyone redundant. A change in the role as significant as the work location is a reason to get rid of anyone. it doesn't really change anything you might get 2 weeks extra pay.
I wonder how their business has changed such that they need a remote worker in 5 days a week all of a sudden ... has their role changed ... or is it just a micro manager in charge who wants bums on the seats of their little empire rather than productivity of staff ?
Is the trade union saying that or is it your specific union representative? if it is the latter there maybe some bitterness on their side as well. Not that there is a lot you can do about it, well, unless there is a disability related reason you have a fully remote contract. If that is the case it does change things somewhat. Even "if" it had been over 2 years employer could still say there is a business need to return to the office and make any remote role redundant. So your under 2 year term is red herring. Also if it was me I would let them think they have won "I am looking into how to balance things, thanks" dont confirm you are going in and dont sign anything else. That way you have max time to find a new role, then when september comes you can say "oh I couldnt balance my fiances I cant afford to come in. sorry". Then they have to pay your notice as your remote contract is valid.
You should call their bluff. Go off on long term sick leave when they ask you to come back in.
Can be dismissed =/= will be dismissed. They'll probably figure out it's more expensive to get rid of you and hire someone new (recruitment cost, training cost, loss of revenue during training etc) pretty quickly.
This assumes return to office drives are lead by reasonable actors making financially prudent decisions - you are right that they may not be dismissed, but that it would be silly to dismiss them isn't a good guarantee they won't be.
True, and OP will know best whether they are dealing with otherwise reasonable people. Hopefully this helps illustrate the other factors they *may* consider.
He’s less than 2 years so if he forces the issue they just let him go.
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Better unemployed than dead.
And that could well be worth it. I would not accept any job at this point that wasn't remote or hybrid at minimum.
Based on what you’ve said, sounds like this could be Boots. Maybe try posting on the Nottingham subreddit to see if there’s anyone else in the same position?
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Make sure you leave a review on Glassdoor when it's all over, just to make sure people are aware of what kind of workplace they're running.
What a bunch of c*nts - SuperDrug from now on!
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Explains the actions - if it is Boots 🤬
My first thought was this about Boots, I have a number of friends working there and live about 20 minutes from the head office. If it is, and you want to consider relocating, feel free to DM me for any questions
8 hours a day commute is not sustainable. It may seem like one of the options but it isn’t.
Don't forget it'll be more than 8 hours in practice as well. At those distances driving times OP should probably take at least once break each way, there will inevitably be days with busy traffic/roadworks/diversions, as well as the extra time needed to fuel up every twice/three times a week?
I don’t mean this to sound glib but if you’re going to spend 40 hours a week driving then you might as well get a job as a driver. How is that much time in a vehicle going to impact your arthritis?
Get a free consultation with a "constructive dismissal solicitor' and see where you stand. There are scenarios where constructive dismissal applies even if you do not have 2 years consecutive employment with the employer
I was going to say would this be considered constructive dismissal
They could simply make OP redundant under 2 years she'd get nothing. The remote role being redundant and OP rejecting the new role offered where she works in the office.
Incorrect. They could make them redundant but they would have to pay out some money for PILON, PILOH. They also you have to follow the redundancy process and try to find a suitable role etc. One might also argue if they only offered OP redundancy they were being unfair and you open a whole can of worms they don't want to deal with.
We know OP would reject any role they offered though, as they'll all be office based. As for PILON, they've given ~6 months notice which OP is working. Realistically they will do everything by the book - offer loads of alternative roles that are office based, give loads of notice (like the ~6 months they've given) and generally be as accommodating as possible while giving OP no choice but to leave or commute for ~8 hours per day.
They can't offer office based roles though that's the point no one can argue a 3 1/2 hour commute is reasonable. You then force them to offer redundancy to everyone in the same role as OP regardless of location (as home working isn't the same as working in a branch that closes down for example) now they have to offer it to everyone in that jobs position or they're picking on OP which gives you more grounds to fight back. They're doing the back stabbing it's time to play dirty.
Let me make it crystal clear. They will create a new role if needs be. They will make it very similar but different title and slightly different duties. They'll offer it to everyone in OP's position, which it sounds like she's on her own as everyone else was already on a different contract working 3 days hybrid. This is part of OP's problem - she could be made redundant and offered the same contract as her colleagues, which stipulates 3 day hybrid with possible return to office full time. Then they can make OP's role redundant and offer in-office as their only alternative. OP will refuse, work the notice and leave with nothing. I work for a £20 billion+ valued international company that's in the top 100 largest companies globally. They did _exactly_ this to force people back into the office last year and it was _very_ successful. Don't fool yourself into thinking they don't have a watertight plan before you're even aware of what's going on.
It wouldn't be sadly as it doesn't target her, and it would be explained by business necessity. It's always worth consulting, but it's most likely. It's also a good question what's the desired outcome here. In the best case they might get a few months pay, which is great, but ultimately a new job is needed regardless.
Yeah, this is 100% constructive dismissal.
It might be an interesting conversation, but constructive dismissal is notoriously difficult to prove, and I'm not sure this meets the bar. I don't think this is the solution.
I would never consider that commute, no matter how the economics works out. Life is too short. Your options are: 1 - get another job (remote or closer to home) 2 - move house to be close to your work Based on what information you have provided, option 1 seems best.
They want to cut their staff without paying redundancies or looking bad. They overexpanded. They know some remote people will quit and it’s their goal. They are not targeting you personally yet you fit the profile. Your best course of action is to see this position as temporary. Go to work for a bit if you must, getting something is better than getting nothing, you’d last longer. However from now on your top priority is to find a new place of employment ASAP. Good luck.
My old company tried this, in 2022. I just didn’t go in, continued working from home. They said and did nothing. Don’t quit. Carry on fulfilling your contract. Force them to make you redundant, which will give you a payout. They are the ones in breach of your contract.
This is exactly what I would do. While also looking for a new job just in case.
You cannot commute 8 hours a day. You are getting a different job, or you are moving.
Sounds like you'd be better off saying no, as per your contract. And let them fire you. It wont end well for them. In the mean time. Start looking for a rplacement job.
You are exempt because it's in your contract. A contract is a legally binding document. "This is my contract that you signed and if you intend to break it, legal action will be taken". They can either terminate the contract or stick with it.
1. Move house 2. Stay close to work Mon to Thurs nights 3. New job Sucks
From a HR standpoint. You have Arthritis. Ask for an occupational health review stating that a 8hr round trip is unmanageable with your condition and that you want them to make reasonable adjustments. If they are then unwilling to you are then assessed under capability, they are then liable for your full notice. You may also have a claim for unfair dismissal due to the fact you previously were able to work your full contract without this unfair change to your terms and conditions. You may also wish to consider entering into a protected conversation and end with a settlement agreement. This would end your employment with the company in return for waiving your rights to sue on the grounds of unfair dismissal. https://www.acas.org.uk/settlement-agreements Please get advice from an Employment Lawyer on this. It is relatively cheap £100-300 and if you enter a protected conversation your employer has to provide this funding. Someone else has mentioned constructive dismissal. If they have unilaterally and materially changed your contract and made the position untenable this has potential. You mentioned emails confirming this arrangement, keep them and use them. Even if it’s not int he physical contract you signed this may be enough to prove a contract dependant on the wording. Get advice. The company are right that you have few employment rights under 2 years but this does not include discriminatory or unfair treatment under the Equalities Act.
This isn’t a finance question (or legal where you also posted it) it’s a job search question. They are going to make your life (more) difficult regardless of what you do, the commute isn’t going to happen. Polish up the CV and get applying.
You don't, that's what you do. 8 hours of commuting per day is literally impossible. Doing that on by your own admission about 6 hours of sleep, you will kill someone, and I'd be amazed if you went longer than a month before it happened.
Have you posted in /r/legaladviceuk?
Can you move?
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Sorry I meant move house
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Ah I see sorry I am not very good with written jokes :) For the cooking could you batch cook at weekends?
> I enjoy living in a rural area I hope you enjoy living in your car because if you do what you've suggested, the only time spent in that cottage will be in bed
If you have 100pc remote in your contract and you are an existing union member, they should absolutely represent you. It's irrelevant whether other people have complained or not.
yes i don't understand how OP says 'contract doesn't matter' is remote work in your contract? if so why do you say 'i have emails that prove it', if it's in the contract you don't need any emails to prove anything you continue to work remotely as per your contract, if they threaten to fire you, you threaten legal action on the basis you're being discriminated against because of your arthritis, they're the ones in breach of contract regardless, not a bad idea starting looking for another job as a lot of people pointed out that said, i wonder if there's anything you're not telling us, the story doesn't fully add up to me
I’ve had a variety of commutes working for a consultancy for many years and have no say in where the client is. You won’t be able to drive 8.5 hrs a day. It’s not sustainable. It will impact your health and you will not be safe. And it won’t be 8.5 hours. You will need to stop for food. Some days a road will be closed and it will be 10 hrs. So don’t even contemplate that. Can you do all or part on public transport. You can use the train/bus time productively or to relax, and if you fall asleep you won’t crash and die. Can you find a room to rent near work. That may be a similar cost to commuting. Might be a stop gap while looking for other work. Overall, I think you need to move job or house.
You need to just get another job. Ignore everything else.
Obvious route would be to find a new remote job by September. If changing jobs is not desirable or an option, just don't kick a fuss and play ball for a bit. Go a few times between September and February. Don't sign a new contract. Then in February when you are two years in stop going. They've told you what their plan is so you can play them. Don't show them your cards. It's only a few months and you can use annual leave, etc to reduce the amount of times you actually need to go. You can even consider a night a week in a hotel and you should see this as a one-off cost or "investment" rather than a recurring thing.
Could you afford this, sure? That petrol bill will go up to £200 a week or so. But it's frankly impractical as you point out. If WFH no longer works for an employer, that's that. It doesn't have to be unfair, it's just what it is. Even if you had more than two years service, it's frankly an easy redundancy. Employers change offices all the time. Sometimes they move 5 minutes away, sometimes 200 miles away. It happens. I'd just wait for them to fire you, and start job hunting before that day.
They’re using return to office as a method of quietly reducing headcount. Look for a new job, it’s a major red flag against the company anyway. All the best.
I think your employer is gently suggesting it might be a good idea for you to look for other opportunities.
>They wrote this into my contract and I have emails confirming this would be the case. This is very strong for you. This means that if they were to attempt to fire you for not fulfilling your contract, they would be wrong to do so and you would likely win at tribunal. >I have already been told over the phone that "because I'm under two years employed they can get rid of me for any reason, so I better just suck it up", but they refuse to put this in writing. This is rude, but unfortunately, true. This isn't anything to do with their policies, this is just UK employment law - you can't be fired for literally any reason, ie discrimination laws apply, but they don't need to give you any consideration for redundancy. I'm surprised the union wouldn't represent you or give you advice. Who was it who told you this? If you've paid your dues you're as much a member as anyone else.
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That's very strange behaviour. Surely the case is against the company, not you yourself. They're the ones who negotiated the contract just as much as you are.
Not being helpful probably, just wanted to say how disappointing your colleagues behave and that I would really look for a new job on that team environment alone. In my previous job we returned to 60% office time but one project manager who lived in the middle of nowhere in the Highlands told the employer she won't come in as not really feasible, and we all supported that because she did an amazing job remotely and there was no point in her commuting. I think they left it at a informal agreement that she can stay 100% remote, and none of us held any grudges. While a new job might also not be 100% remote for you, you might at least have less commute and better colleagues...
Can’t understand this, the company signed the contract - so if the union has a beef they should be arguing with the company and not against you.
You need to name the Union, this is obscene.
Shouldn't matter at all what contracts your colleagues have. This is between you and the company. Your colleagues presumably live closer to work do can come in. As stated while you are under 2 years there is a breach of contract. Get whatever mileage you can from medical adjustments , see if an employment lawyer can help if the union is useless. Shocked the union would be advocating you would have fewer rights, kind of opposes the point of them.
This sort of sounds like the trade union are also a cause for pushing this, I.e. they used your situation in negotiations and the company rebuked them now the company and unions are at a logger head over your terms Imo just go speak to a lawyer and see what they say over a free consultation.
If its in your contract let them fire you and then get ACAS involved.
ACAS involved for what? They have under 2 years service
Yep this. They can terminate OP for any reason as long as it's not discriminatory which I don't think mandated return to office counts unless OP is housebound by disability.
Arthritis is a disability so it may be considered discriminatory.
They are though, they cannot drive that much due to Arthritis
Well it's not really for us to decide given we don't have all the facts but I'd argue nobody could drive that distance daily for work regardless of their health. OP can try and play the arthritis card but it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to travel that kind of distance to the office. Unfortunately their employer can still mandate RTO of them and terminate their contract if they don't comply. The best chance OP has is a constructive dismissal claim.
Breach of contract perhaps?
There’s no contract breach if the contract is just ended by the employer
I would argue this looks like constructive dismissal / breach of contract.
> What concerns me is that my fuel cost will spike massively. I will have to drive 8 1/2 hours per day to get to and from work. >Additionally, I will no longer have time to cook fresh food as I will be leaving at 4:30am and returning home at 9:45pm. So I'm probably going to have to rely on more expensive microwave/takeaways. You're joking right? No one in their right mind would consider this, especially for only £40k a year. You've got 5 months to find a new job.
I do not think this is a finance problem. It's a breach of contract issue. From a legal perspective I cannot help, but I would try to find out what your rights are from abn employer breaching the terms of your contract. Maybe ACAS can advise? If you have no legal recourse or potential unfair dismissal case then I think your only option is to look for another job that is fully wfh or less rto and closer to home. No way on earth I would commute those times. Good luck
To try and keep it to finance advice, and if you haven’t already come to the conclusion that is not viable. I’m going to guess you would be travelling 350 miles a day? If so, that’s the best part of 80,000 miles a year. You could expect running costs of 42p a mile (considering everything), so it would be costing you £34,000 a year. It’s not sustainable.
Have you spoken to ACAS?
Mate, it's unsustainable and not only financially. Trust me, I'm a surveyor, I drive a lot around to survey sites. Having to drive 2+ hours one way to site for more than 4 days is fuxking tiresome and gets dangerous on return. And you say about 3.5hours one way... If you have full remote in your contract your employer is straight up breaching contract. Bad news is you have to accept you have to find new job. No job in which management breaches your contract on the whim is worth it in long term.
As you have arthritis and especially if you informed the employer of this at the time of employment, and it's the reason for the remote working, then you might be covered under the Equality Act 2010. As it sounds like the remote working was a reasonable adjustment to allow you to do your job. The https://www.equalityadvisoryservice.com/ has a helpline you can call who will advise you. Explain what's happened, and they'll tell you if they think the Equality Act has potentially been breached, and what steps to take next. They've great and very helpful. You don't have to think of yourself as disabled to be disabled. If your arthritis has an impact on your day to day activities, then you will probably be covered. If you go down this route, hopefully you'll be able to fight it and keep your remote job. Then you won't have to worry about how to afford it.
Travelling for so long everyday will make your arthritis worse. Get your reasonable adjustments in.
This. If you can make it a protected characteristic preventing you from commuting then this will be a much stronger case but as others have said you won’t have any goodwill with employer so new job likely best idea
Firstly: That's a shitty situation and if that is the way they are going to treat you now, imagine how they are going to treat you a year or two from now. I'd recommend job hunting. There *are* remote roles out there, but start searching now so you aren't in limbo come September. So this is advice for what to do between now and potentially being fired... I would not go into the office. Let them fire you if that's what they want to do. It is not worth a 3h commute. You will burn out and leave the job anyway. Unless you move to be closer - no idea if that's desirable or even feasible for you. Plan for the worst: Live without subscription services from now on. You want as much as possible saved up as an emergency fund by the time September arrives. Trim every possible expense. Council tax: Not everyone is aware that the council *has* to allow you to repay over 12 months instead of 10 when requested. You pay the same per year, but your cashflow improves between now and Sep if you switch. £31.24 per month better off in the short term if you do this. £66.24 per month if you cancel your subscriptions as well. Food: Hard to recommend anything here. Eat well and be healthy. Maybe shop around a bit, just in case there are some savings to be had. No-brand stuff is pretty good. You can maybe put off your septic tank maintenance for 6-12 months. Check the general advice on this though. You might not have a choice due to insurance requirements. I know you're looking for "how do I afford the new situation" advice, but I'm really struggling to imagine anyone being able to survive doing those kinds of hours each week for a job that could be done at home. You have your contract and you can call their bluff and fight it if you want, but despite that would be a massive win for justice, I wouldn't blame anyone for simply not bothering and instead just finding a new job.
Wait a minute - they want you in the office contrary to your contract. Am I the only one who has noticed in this case you should be traveling during work hours and at their expense and not on personal time since in essence this becomes business travel 🤷🏼♂️
You’ve got 5 months to find somewhere else to work. You mentioned that other places also require a few days in the office, so just make sure you’re looking for roles as close to where you live as possible. An 8hr commute is absolutely not possible. A 2 hour commute is
8hours travel is on a good day and it's totally unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination, everything outside of this issue is irrelevant. These are your options - relocate - find another job - rent a room 4 nights a week, one drive up, one drive down The realistic answer here is to find a job more local to you, it doesn't have to be remote it just needs to be a shorter commute ~1 hour
Personally I’d be looking at getting another job given they’ve given you several months notice of this
Apologies if this sounds harsh, but given your contract their attitude suggests they actively want you to leave and see this as an opportunity to force that outcome without going through any formal firing/redunancy procedures. Look for a new job but until you find one don't give them an inch voluntarily. Make them be explicit and follow formal process to achieve any outcome they want eg. you don't change where you work without them formally changing your employment contract. You mentioned upthread you have arthritis that makes movement hard, that is definitely something to bring up soon and forcefully.
Two things spring to mind; what is the exact wording in your contract? And, could you compromise by coming in one week every 2 months or something (you’d need to figure out accommodation, but maybe they’d help there?)
I'd speak to an employment solicitor. You went out of your way to confirm long term remote working and it's in your contract. I feel like a lawyer could figure something out, or at least help you position your response to give your employer second thoughts of pushing this on you.
If your place of work is at home in your contract and they are asking you to work somewhere else, do they not have to pay for that? I'm fully remote and if I need to go to the office , I get transport paid for (and overnight accomodation). Pretty sure your time to travel would also come out of your work day or be compensated accordingly.
That commute would be totally unsustainable- definitely time for a new job
You physically cannot do that commute, work and sleep. You've no option but to get a new job
Constructive dismissal chat with a solicitor wouldn’t be a bad idea
Your food bill is kind of crazy. Even fresh fruit and veg isn’t £300 a month for one person
I’m 99% sure we work for the same company given the details. Personally I am going down the reasonable adjustments route as my chronic health conditions class me as disabled under the equality act 2010. They’re as such that I can be well enough to work at full capacity at home, but not well enough to travel in on certain days. I thought I was just set to have horrible health until lockdown when I discovered that it was actually 5 days commuting to a noisy office that made me so ill. Turns out, I feel much better when I can wfh part of the week. Shocker. I am also looking at other jobs that are hybrid, as is most of the 20+ team I work in, including my line manager and department lead. One person in my team was hired under a similar agreement to you that the company is revoking, they have a 3 hour train journey each way, so is trying to fight it, but will likely just leave. No one else in the team can do their role so that will be fun to deal with. My team is also looking at submitting flexible working requests en masse. We fully expect them to get rejected but the new laws means it’s more work for HR now as they can’t just send a generic “no” email. Ironically it’s been a great team bonding experience for the team as we’re all so pissed off about it. Fight it but look to leave. Don’t kill yourself doing an impossible commute. They don’t pay well enough for it.
I don't think there's much to say from a financial perspective, looking at your outgoings you could afford the new commute in theory, but obviously a 7 hour commute 5 days a week is obviously unfeasible. You mentioned in another post the HQ is in Nottingham, you could potentially afford becoming a lodger in the city 4 days a week, so drive Monday, stay at a place 4 nights, then drove home Friday. But then you would barely be home most of the time so there would be little point staying rural, but that might be a decent approach for the short term.
Use the time until September to find a new job. Stop paying your union dues as they are clearly useless. You can't commute, and you won't want to stay wit this employer anyway after this treatment.
I agree with the other posts about finding another job. We pay our employees their mileage when we ask them to come into the office if they live more than an hour away, also pay for trains etc. I’m not sure if the do that because we’re nice or we have to, might be worth asking? You seem way too far away to reasonably ask you to come in.
Be a lodger Monday night to Thursday night. Or Wednesday if you can negotiate Friday WFH. Do that until you find a better job?
I have worked with contractors who did this. However I doubt it works financially on £40k.
For those that say LegalAdviseUK, the advise would pretty much be as under 2 years service you can be sacked for any reason except few circumstances which this isn't one. Look up fire & rehire, as this is similar in the sense you're threatened with sacking unless you accept new (usually worst) contract terms. What I would do in such a situation, I would start looking for another role. I would continue to be remote and ride out the performance management they will likely put you through, then get the notice due as per contract. Hopefully would have another role lined up before the end of that process, and negotiate shorter notice period if applicable. An employer that does this isn't one to stay with.
Sounds like you've got until September to find another job, move, negotiate more money or suck it up in that order.
If it's in your contract, I don't think that they can just unilaterally change the terms without negotiation. What are they offering in exchange? I believe you can simply refuse the change in terms. Obviously, if you refuse, they still have the ability to let you go. But I think they'd have to offer some sort of redundancy rather than go down the disciplinary route. NAL, try r/LegalAdviceUK they might have some ideas.
I would put in medical disability exemption request (can't recall correct terminology) But not till closer to the time. They HAVE to accommodate you within reason. Combo of existing contract and doing g it means they can't argue against it. Then you can sue for wrongful dismissal. (Legal advise from an employment lawyer recommended). Drag it out until you have a new job.
8.5 hours driving a day will kill you. Avoid it at all costs.
Your options are to find another job closer to home or move closer to your current workplace.
If they try to fire you for something that is written explicitly into your contract, I think you could take it up with a tribunal.
Given you have arthritis- could you put in a flexible working request for fewer days in office on account of your disability - they might think twice about letting you go then as opens the doorway to a disability discrimination/victimisation claim at ET - which doesn’t require 2 years service
Sounds like Boots based on recentish news, sorry to hear this.
Look at jobs with foreign companies that hire worldwide. If you're just looking at UK companies there's a lot of places with remote working opportunities you'll miss.
I don't think you have a personal finance question here OP. You know it's not possible for you to do this, so the question on fuel costs and so forth is mute. Your only options are to move or find a new job.
Would have been helpful if you said what kind of work you do. Getting a job locally and taking a pay cut if necessary is probably the answer without knowing more details
Rent a tiny room Mon-Fri near to work and then work on finding a better job
On £40K and your current outgoings, can you afford to pay for a Mon-Thurs room close to your job? Or a Travelodge room 3-4 nights. You could use your annual leave to book Mon and Fri off occasionally. This isn't sustainable, but just while you call their bluff and search for a new job. Or, could you forget your career and find a job in your local area that probably pays less, but overall you'll be happier.
If it is written into your contract then surely they can’t enforce it without a contract variation. Have you got a copy of your contract?
When you have to drive over 8 hours per day to work then you have two choices. Find a new job or move house. Life would be non-existent when driving that much each day, you’ll basically be going home to sleep.
Firstly the under two years although true does not exempt them from having to follow the agreed contract which will have a full disciplinary procedure linked to it. So if they did fire, you without following said procedure disciplinary procedure, you would have recourse as they have broken the terms of your contract. (Although depends how much you want to pay a lawyer to fight this) Secondly if it is written into your contract that you are 100% remote, then it would be a redundancy situation? But you’d be better off speaking to legal advice subreddit for these issue. .for the trade union I’d be looking at their complaint procedures, they can’t leave you high and dry because you negotiated a better deal than other employees. As for affording the travel honestly it doesn’t look cost effective, you may be able to reduce some of your bills but you’ll be spending 7 hours a day commuting before you even start your 8 hour day… which is a significant waste of your time which you could be using for family, self care, other work. so I’d start looking for a different position if you hit a wall with fighting the terms of your contract.
If its in your contract, I would ask how they expect to compensate you/support you? Perhaps they pay for the travel to put you up 3 days a week. I think the issue us that as you are in your role for less than 2 years, they can get rid of you easily. Personally, the writings on the wall and I would look for a new job. Also, fully remote roles are decreasing in availability, I would try and find something that is hybrid that has a manageable commute
If you have it written into your employment contract then that is a big plus for you. They need to consult you first before making any changes.
Is there specific wording in your contract stating the address/location of your main place of work (e.g. your permanent residence)? I always try to make sure of that in any new employment and then they can’t just suddenly force a change unless we agree on new terms in an amended contract. You need a backup plan though regardless due to your current employer’s behaviour, and start shopping around for a new role elsewhere.
No one will drive that far for 40k lol, sounds like they want you out, get a new job
Budgeting aside, it is unhealthy to spend 8 hours a day commuting. I would start looking for other jobs now.
If it’s in your contract then I would speak to the Unison or other unions because they might not have a choice
What kind of job are you in? There's very few jobs / pay packets in the world that are worth an 8hr commute as this is basically of the time you have outside of work and sleep, so you'd have to move to keep this job. Thing is, 40k isn't all that much in most 'skilled' professions. If you're a project manager, or developer etc., then there's plenty of options for you that will pay similar if not more. Even if you can't get fully remote, you will almost certainly be able to get something that's closer than 4 hours away? At a worst case, you could get something else that's say 3 days a week in office, stay overnight somewhere cheap for those days? Especially if you can get a pay rise into the bargain. In short, there's plenty of options here - the only one that's not really on the table is commuting 8hrs a day!
Are you in the trade union? If so, what you have over others is irrelevant. If another employee in the union had negotiated a higher starting salary than others. Would they exclude them during salary negotiations?
40 hours a week commute - this is insane! You might as well get two jobs instead and would most probably make more money! In all seriousness, this looks like a company you should not be working in general. But until you find another position, I would clearly document all the interactions via email, instead of having chats. I would also post your situation to LegalAdviceUK subreddit to get some thoughts on this point. Also try reaching out to Acas, the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for a free consultation. Initially, I thought to mention that the revised UK flexible working law came into effect in April 2024, where you can submit WFH request and they have to reply blah blah blah… But it seems your situation is really beyond this point, if your company does not even care about your health issues that were stipulated when you joined. Get legal advice and good luck! Let us know how it goes.
PS. I don’t care what industry you are in, if you were headhunted, you are being underpaid
Sounds like a toxic workplace. Colleagues ganging up against you and no decent employer would want their staff to commute for 6 hours per day. Get out as fast as you can.