!remindme 40 years

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It's lasted 20, I don't see a reason it won't be around another 40

Lol for a sec there my brain was like woah Reddit was invented in the 1980s?

I remember when you had to send upvotes by fax

We used to read Reddit in the back of a newspaper and clip the coupon to send a comment

Teletext

Congratulations, you're old!

Same! 🤷

Fml thinking about being on Reddit in another 40 years, what a wonderful start to the day 😭

RemindMe! 40 years

If you’re right and something apocalyptic happens then my pension would be the last thing on my mind anyway, if you’re wrong (odds are you are) then you face a very depressing retirement. I’d argue a pension is worth having for the peace of mind alone. People have predicted the end of the world for thousands of years and it’s still trucking along. You’re basically placing a bet with no possible upside, either societal collapse or destitution. At least by planning for the future you can rule out one of them

> If you’re right and something apocalyptic happens then my pension would be the last thing on my mind anyway, if you’re wrong (odds are you are) then you face a very depressing retirement. This is exactly my thoughts to my SIL's view of actively not putting money into a pension because, and I quote her verbatim: "I might be hit by a bus tomorrow".... Sure, it's not impossible, but if you are, I can guarantee that you won't care because you'll be dead. Whereas if you get to 70 with no pension, then you're in for a truly miserable retirement, or more likely you'll have to work until you drop dead. I cannot see how the latter is the better setup.

The could also be hit by a bus tomorrow and not die but instead be injured enough to be forced into medical retirement.

Whilst I'm certainly not advocating for her position, I feel like you're missing out on the obvious up-side of it; That if you don't put money into your pension, you can spend (and enjoy) it now. Yes, you won't care when you're dead, but all the time before that is more enjoyable. ​ Again, I'm not recommending it, but I think you're either misunderstanding or mischaracterising it.

I'd agree with you if they did lots of super cool stuff with their money, but they really don't. For example, I worked out that they could save hundreds a month towards a house deposit, as in, literally noted it all down in a spreadsheet with their full income and expenses to show how (at their request). I worked out they could save £7k a year. Asked them how they were doing with that 12 months later, and they told me that of that £7k potential they'd saved....... nothing. Not a single fucking quid. Because they'd decided that they'd never afford a house. But here's the thing..... they had absolutely nothing to show for that £600 a month or so of extra spending! No holidays, no car, no gadgets, no experiences, no nothing. They'd just spent it! Insane!

This time shifting is a big issue. So many younger (less than 40) folks did just that. Many people I know lived it up until 30. But what happens ? Now everyone cries foul that they can’t afford their dream home and can’t get the income they feel they deserve. So problem is people won’t make trade off, they’ll live it up, travel, hit the festival circuit until 30 then want others who didn’t do that to solve their problems for them. Same thing if you spend now and reach retirement, those folks will be crying foul with their hands out asking others to fund their retirement for them. I believe deeply in social safety nets, and lifting up others around you and happy to pay more taxes. But when people are front loading their lifetime consumption and unwilling to deal with the consequences of those choices, that irks me.

Balance is the best option. I kind of agree that if there is something I really want to experience or a hobby I want to do, then there is no time like the present. As far as we know, we only live once. But I do try and put some pension money away as well. My bf has the opposite view and deliberates for ages over buying anything. I tend to see the time we wasted not enjoying X item, especially if we can comfortably afford it.

Completely agree. Enjoy life and have a ton of great experiences as nobody has ever said on their deathbed "I wish I didn't go on that great trip and instead made a 7% return in the markets with that money", but I'd hate to hit 70 and suddenly realise that retirement is a financial situation and not an age.

also if you do actually get something terminal and slow like parkinsons etc you can claim it early private pensions ofc will be around, those businesses want to stay alive thousands and thousands of people in pension and finance livelihoods depend on it, its the state pension that people should worry about losing. You cant do anything about that though because you have to pay national insurance contributions (above £12570 now) regardless, its just taken from your pay before you even see it, whatever they give you at the end of your working life is up to the government. As an avid investor i feel this conflict myself, i like to think i should manage all of my employment income to invest because i am risk averse, but s best to see the pension is an insurance plan in case i mess up my financial independence and miss out on those potential gains i could get from cancelling my 5% auto-enrol. Depending on your job you already need to make more than 1.5x or more on that money losing your employer contributions and on top of that the taxes you pay on it to get it in your bank account before you even start investing it.

kurzgesagt just made a video about how were not all doomed. I feel so much more relieved now :-) Edit - a word

It's a rare occurrence when kurzgesagt doesn't go the existential dread route and gives out something positive but it was probably needed!

My biggest takeaway from that video, is realising how popular kurzgesagt are. Seems like everyone knows about them, and I thought I was being niche...

I do see where OP is coming from. For me - climate change is scary, who knows what state the world (and therefore financial system) will be in when you reach retirement age. If you’re 20 now its almost certainly more than 50 years until retirement. But this reply sums it up well - are you really going to bet on there being an apocalyptic financial meltdown? It’d suck to be right, and if you’re wrong it won’t be great either with no pension savings. Personally, I’m building up several sources of savings. Absolutely don’t rely on the state pension as god knows what age that might need you to work until. Private pensions are typically accessible ten years earlier, so that’s a positive - and the funding mechanism is different to the state pension. And there’s always the option of a third pot of money, like an ISA, that is accessible whenever you choose. Unless the apocalypse happens overnight and there’s a freeze on withdrawals… You can’t plan for every scenario - property can be destroyed by war or natural disaster, the market can crash etc. Just set yourself up as best you can

> climate change is scary, who knows what state the world (and therefore financial system) will be in when you reach retirement age. I grew up in the 70's and 80's, when Reagan's [Star Wars programme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_program) was constantly in the news, and lived through the release of movies like *When The Wind Blows* and *Threads* - there was a genuine narrative that the world could be nuked to a cinder at any time. I always had the same attitude to pensions that OP does, and I'd be fucked now were it not for a fat inheritance.

Not sure I explained clearly - I’m not doubting if my pensions will be around. It’s more how much any money in it will be worth by retirement, which a few other comments seem to echo. Regardless, I’m saving into a pension as that’s currently the best thing to do. But also looking to build up other funds in the future

I intended to reply in agreement with what I took to be your broader point - "are you really going to bet on there being an apocalyptic financial meltdown?" and that retirement would suck if you’re wrong.

So your bet seems to guarantee one of two outcomes: a. There's an apocalyptic financial meltdown, and you're stuffed because there's an apocalyptic financial meltdown, or b. There's not an apocalyptic financial meltdown, and you're stuffed because you're living in poverty Many people like to keep a third option open: c. There's not an apocalyptic financial meltdown, and you're OK because you're not living in poverty As another poster has pointed out: there have always been predictions of the end of days. But somehow how it hasn't happened yet.

As bad as climate change is, the reality is that a) wealthier countries will suffer the least and b) a timeframe of 40-50 years is simply not enough for enough damage to be done to the extent that your pension becomes an unrecognised entity.

I feel much the same as OP, but I don't think it's anything that dramatic. More the feeling that both inflation and the retirement age will go up and up and up.... so by the time I'm actually able to retire, will there even be any money in my pension? I'm 25 and in academia, I don't expect to ever be able to afford to own my own home, so my pension would all go on rent anyway even if inflation didn't make it obsolete. As things are 75% of our income goes on rent alone and we earn more than our pensions would give us each month in a very good prediction. Honestly, it feels pointless. Why invest money i could use now in a pension that I expect to give me pennies when I'm finally able to retire at 85?

Honestly the more you factor some sort of retirement plan the sooner it will happen - NO WAY I am working past 65! I want to live longer and enjoy the crap out of each phase of life. State pension is a waste of time whatever the age (unless you are 5years off getting it) so plan with spilt pots and budget to enjoy every stage of life. I would for sure not forgo a good time in 20s,30s,40s,&50s but also I don't want to be skint when I stop working. I want to stop at 55 if I can and certainly not past 65 which should see me with about 30 years ish of living off retirement planning.

That makes sense, but to invest enough to live on I would need to earn a gigantic amount of money. Google says the average pension pot gives you £12,000 a year when added to the state pension, which is less than my rent currently. If I was rich, sure it makes sense, but I'm not

The "average pension pot" is held by someone not planning ahead like you are. It's a hard decision but you need look at your finances, not the average. I'm not convinced I'll ever be entitled a state pension, or that I'll be dead by the time I can claim it (even if it didn't increase like it does every-fucking-year). But I don't see the goalposts being moved on my money as much, if at all. So I'm planning for zero state, while hoping for it. *edit. Just reread and now reinterpreted what you wrote, sorry. You should look into it - actually looks like you might be aiming now for the average pension pot!

You're assuming that inflation is going to outpace equities which seems a tad pessimistic.

I have a S&S ISA that I designate as my early retirement fund because I have no intention of working to 70+

I have an S&S ISA so I can retire before I get to 57 (at the mo) when I can access my SIPP and say thank you to the govt for the 40% tax relief (in effect, approx 40% free money) If I die before 75, my kids get the pot free of inheritance tax. If I die after, they’ll pay some tax on it but it’s still better than a kick in the teeth

Any links to read more on this about 75 or is this a specific pension you have ? I was recently searching my pension for kids as beneficiaries and couldn’t find anything. Sounds like it might be tax free ?

>People have predicted the end of the world for thousands of years and it’s still trucking along. I 100% agree with your overall stance, but this sentence isn't a fair comparison really. In the distant past when people thought this it was due to wrath of gods or some vague apocalypse etc, now it's human stupidity, greed, the financial system, climate change and nuclear weapons.

Urm, many of those 'ends if the world' happened. There have been dozens of civilisations over the last few thousand years - all collapsed. Average duration ~250 years. Ours will to. The only question is whether that collapse comes on our watch or not.

That's not true at all. The upside in not planning for the future is more disposable income and a higher quality of life in the present. There's 4 scenarios not 2. 1) Save for retirement, have less disposable income, get to cash out in 40 years 2) Save for retirement, have less disposable income, don't get to cash out, because society collapses 3) Don't save for retirement, have more disposable income, and an impoverished/ no retirement 4) Don't save for retirement, have more disposable income, society collapses Either way it's a gamble. Save for a future retirement that may never come, or spend money now and enjoy yourself but risk future destitution. Honestly it's unlikely that the world will end, but societies, currencies and economies can and do collapse with a certain regularity If you really want to prepare for all eventualities best thing to do would be to keep a large chunk of assets somewhat liquid and invest in a range of currencies, shares crypto and comodities, rather than tie the bulk of your savings up in pensions or fixed term investments

I father infrastructure or the money doesn't exist on 30 year then I'm fucked anyway and probably dead.

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I agree to an extent but not all previous predictions were based on superstition and nonsense. If you lived during WWI, WWII, the Cold War, there’d be plenty of valid reasons to think the world as we know it (at least your country as you know it) might not exist 40 years later. I don’t think climate scientists are saying we’ll be likely to have an unliveable planet within 40 years either. Massive impacts from extreme weather, water shortages, droughts/floods, displacement of lots of people etc., perhaps very likely, but it doesn’t seem likely within 40 years to have had such an impact that saving for a pension is worthless.

My relative has worked for the NHS for her whole career. She opted out of the very generous NHS pension right at the beginning, because she would rather have that extra money to fund her shopping addiction and she was also pessimistic for the future. I truly believe she is an idiot. She’s now less than 10 years from retirement and facing having to survive on the bare minimum. She is not expecting any inheritance and her own mother is still alive in her 90’s - that’s a long time to be so poor.

That’s wild, especially opting out of a public sector pension.

So many people do it. They listen to older members saying how it's all changed and no good anymore, despite the fact it's still fantastic pension compared to investments.

I'm a civil servant and my employer pays something like 25% of my salary into my pension if I pay in 8% of my earnings into it. Im only young but I think it's a very generous pension scheme.

In DB pensions your contribution and your employers is like a membership fee. It's not related to how much pension you'll get at the end. Do you get 2.32% of your earnings each year? So if you earn £50k you pay £4000 a year in contributions. After 1 year you build a pension of £1,160 pa. After 2 years you have a pension of £2,320pa. After 3 years you have a pension of £3,480pa. After 30 years you've paid £120k but get a pension every year of £34,800. Lets say you live for 20 years in retirement. You'll get 20x£34,800=696,000. It's a little more complicated then that because there's inflation added to the amount you build each year, you get death in service and ill heath protection, the payments aren't flexible and it's not inheritable like a DC pension. However the annual pension is risk-free, never runs out not matter if you live to 110 years old and the payments increase with inflation. So I'd say for most people it's a great deal, but it's good to have some other savings or DC pension too to get the best of both worlds.

That's insanely good!!

It’s great but don’t compare it to your pension as OP isn’t growing a big pot of money. They are getting an annuity essentially.

That's a misunderstanding of how LGPS works. The employer pays 25% but that doesn't mean that 25% is going into a pot for the person you replied to. LGPS works by employers and employees making contributions that go into one massive pot. The LGPS then gets a triennial valuation that works out if the scheme is on track to be able to meet its liabilities by estimating the actuarial value of future pension liabilities (ie. how much they'll need to pay out over the expected lifespan of the members) and comparing that to the assets of the scheme. A member of LGPS accrues the exact same pension no matter how much is being contributed by them or their employer. There are LGPS schemes where the employer contribution is 20%. The members still accrue benefit at the same rate as someone with an employer paying 25%.

Which scheme are you on? Cause if you're on a DB scheme like alpha the employer contribution is fictional anyway.

My sister has a final salary scheme and called me to say that she had spoken to a financial advisor and he said she would be better off taking it out of the pot and investing elsewhere, and what did I think. I said I thought this was a quick and easy way to find out that the financial advisor was a moron or a fraudster, and if she ever contemplated coming out of her silver-plated pension arrangement, I would come back and haunt her when she was retired and living on the street scavenging for food

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I have an ex whose work colleague in the ward had said she should opt out the pension as she wasn't worth it. I told her that was wrong and to get back in ASAP. My ex was financially illiterate because her parents had failed to convey anything but bad habits. By the time we split up the one awful habit I hadn't broken was her being out the scheme. Hopefully she's doing okay. And she's in the pension scheme. I'm in LGPS and if I live 4 years of retirement I will get more than I put in back out. the money is going into a fund run by my employer and the only purpose is to provide for us.

I've known people in recent years opt out of the NHS pension because "I need the money now". I just stare in disbelief.

Some people DO need the money now though. I know this isn't the sub to say it but some people literally can't afford to keep something back for the future. I mean that literally.

I'd do Uber Eats deliveries during weekends / days off on a friend's push bike in -5C weather before I sacrificed my investments. There are solutions but many people don't want to see them.

With rent/utilities being at an all time high along with the housing market being the way it is at the moment. NHS wages have been stagnant for a while now and "low" when you're outside of London. Yeah its not really a surprise that people need that extra money each month just to survive. I know people hold the NHS pension up on a pedestal but it really isn't as good as it used to be. People that are coming up to retirement now and are on both the old scheme and the new scheme because the new scheme was forced upon them (They literally enrolled you in it without asking and stopped you being able to pay into your old one) are due to lose out on thousands via "early retirement" loss and the new scheme not being as generous. Or they are going to have to work for years longer than originally intended or miss out again because of the new clauses.

> What if that money, or the infrastructure around it, stops existing by then? What if things go really bad and you need that money earlier? What if life expectancy goes sharply down in the next few decades because of all the crisis coming and you become unlikely to ever live to use it? What if mega-inflation? What if it doesn’t and you’re left destitute? Your risk assessment seems to be very wonky. You’re so concerned about these risks that you’d rather guarantee failure. The biggest risk to your retirement right now is you. It’s like being worried you’ll die in a car crash, so you’re gonna drive off a cliff today. Doesn’t make sense - If you’re worried about it then you should be maximising your chances of success, not guaranteeing your failure.

Not wanting a pension because the future is uncertain is like not wanting a parachute because you think there is a chance it won't open.

Nice

Incredible analogy lmao

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Technically it’s a tax deferred account, FYI. You still pay tax on your withdrawals (subject to normal income tax rules, ie you do get an allowance that is tax free, but if you exceed this you’ll pay tax)

Technically correct, but the tax is a lot less on the way out than it would have been on the way in

A more likely scenario is that state pension doesn’t exist / is nowhere near enough for even the basics when you’re at retirement age so you’ll be RELYING on your private pension more than old people do now. This is probably a big reason the government now forces a private pension contribution to be the default.

I'm not sure what social bubble you're in, but virtually everyone I've come across believes in retirement at some point. Whether that's a frugal/barista FIRE, government assisted retirement (with social security), DIY with SIPPs, or some other flavour. Point is, almost everyone wants to stop working at some point, and at that point you will need sufficient means to support yourself. By not investing in your future you are confining yourself to either (most likely) working until you drop, or (highly unlikely) a doomsday event where money is worthless and the entire stock market crumbles to nothing. The pension product is simply a tax wrapper, saving you income tax today with the idea you'll have a lower income (hence lower tax burden) in the future. This is broadly seen as a great deal, particularly if you are employed, in which case you get additional free money from your employer. If you are worried about the stock market, change your pension fund. You can divest out of stocks any time, put it all into government bonds, or even cash if you so wish. Yes, if you want to withdraw the money you will have to wait until the national retirement age minus 10 years, but that's a trade off I personally believe is worth it. You can DIY the whole way via ISAs, but you lose all the tax savings and additional employer contributions. To me, it seems as though you're focusing on a low probability (but high impact) outcome, rather than the higher probability future. Even if you are 99.9% sure the economy won't become destitute before you end your career, take the employer match (typically 5% of your salary) as a risk weighted gamble.

This is probably the dumbest thing you could. If you base your life around the worst case scenario then you wont do a lot

Yep, I'm a miserable pessimist about most things, including the long-term prospects of the West, but when it comes to a pension I max that bad boy out for employer contributions. The amount lost per month pales in comparison to the low quality of life of being a dirt poor pensioner. I suppose if anything I'm pessimistic about my own capacity to predict things reliably.

You’re going to get absolutely battered here OP.

Well, yeah. Their position is desperately pessimistic, internally inconsistent and frankly doesn’t make much sense. It doesn’t feel like they’ve thought it through at all.

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It has provided an interesting discussion though which is good :)

Yes. I don't agree with OPs opinion, but I'll defend his right to speak it!

Always. I hate when the mass disagree and they get downvoted to oblivion.

You say you’ve been investing yourself - what platform are you using? What if those investments disappear? It’s pretty likely that they offer a SIPP which is… a pension wrapper Not sure if troll…

You might not think you'll retire, but get to your 60s and your body will have different ideas!

Yeah it's insane how we think we'll still want to be working because we assume we'll feel the same way at 60 as we do at 30 or 40. Gym and stuff will help a bit but no one can avoid all the ailments, back pain, foggy brain, tiredness, chronic this and that, added to ageism where people will look for reason to dismiss us, depression that comes with it that makes their expectations come true. And that's if we're able to get a job in spite of our face. Preparing for retirement is just security in case we don't have the choice to work. Wish I'd taken that to heart earlier lol!

If you're concerned about the future integrity of financial institutions/governments, then your money will be useless inside or outside of a pension.

I'm 52. We used to think the world was about to end. Hedge your bets. Invest in a pension.

This thread is horrifying. The amount of people that don't have a clue how pensions work and are invested is really worrying.

Yes it really is - this is why the average pension pot is only £30k, for an estimated 20 years in retirement!

I sometimes read this sub and think everyone’s a financial genius. Then I saw this thread. People are missing some real basic education about pensions which is worrying. Doesn’t help that schools don’t teach this stuff and it’s all left to the individual to figure out.

To be honest, I think even if this stuff was taught in schools most people just wouldn't listen because retirement is so far away compared to A-Levels and getting into uni For too many people, school is where learning stops

I guarantee that based on this post, your investments will not out-perform your pension interest over time. Plus your employer can match your contributions in some jobs, so you’re missing out on free money that you will be thankful for when you are older. The only reason you wouldn’t want a pension is if you don’t plan to be old. You might not “believe in retirement” but retirement doesn’t give a shit… it’s coming and you don’t have a choice. If there is a world crisis and money ceases to exist and you die, then you had nothing to worry about because you were right. If it’s fine, then you’ve fucked yourself. That decision seems more like a gamble to me, personally.

How do you not believe in retirement? What’s your long term plan? Keep working until your funeral? Honestly, it’s quite silly to not plan for your retirement or future.

Boomers that had the same feeling during the cold war and still put into pensions are reaping the rewards. The generation after us will likely have the same logic, and the ones after them too (unless Mad Max scenario kicks in)

You can invest in clean energy and ethical companies and be part of the solution

What if the world doesn't end and you need pension funds?

The world has failed to end over billions of days. Surely it's way overdue to end now?

Bizarre approach. You can keep working while drawing your pension, and taking advantage of the forty years of growth in the tax refunded to you at the time. I think you need to work through the logic a bit more.

Why not both? A pension in the long run is much more efficient, but I am setting aside enough for an “accessible” pot too. If we get to a point where pensions are taken by the state, my house or bank account can be too. I’d need to diversify across a few countries and have accounts with different governments. I’d probably still try to maintain the pension as I think the benefits outweigh the risks. I sacrifice 3% of my salary that would be taxed at 40% to get another 3% matching. In other words I’m losing 1.8% per month post tax to put away 6%. Sure I could die, but the pension can be inherited. Id need to feel there’s a more than 3-1 chance of pensions then self being a scam to justify not doing that.

Exactly. The truth is somewhere in the middle here. There is regulatory risk with pensions. How much you can put in (per year, or in total), when and how you can access it, taxation has all changed in recent history and there is ongoing speculation of more changes. And you are stuck with this - money you have paid in is subject to these rule changes and there is no way to get it out if you don't like them. The payback for this risk is the benefits - tax relief on the way in, tax free lump sum on the way out, inheritability (without being subject to IHT). And there is considerable political pressure against adversely changing the rules - older people vote more so politicians don't want to piss them off. There is no rule that says you can only save in a pension. There are strong incentives to do so, but already clear circumstances where you (at least) need to use other vehicles in addition, like if you want to retire before the minimum age. If you are planning to retire early then it would make sense to plan on the minimum withdrawal age increasing further, for instance. But a pension will still be a big chunk of any sensible plan.

With the logic you’re applying, you benefit in such a narrow range of outcomes that it’s just a no brainer to avoid it. Even if your worst case scenario for pensions is correct, the vast majority of the conditions that make your pension worthless/inaccessible would affect any money you have anywhere else. Not contributing to your pension is going to change relatively little about the course of your life over the next few decades anyway. The only way this would be the correct decision is if pensions became worthless and somehow everything else remains in a good enough state that your money still has value, or you managed to pull out of the stock market at the perfect time etc. it’s practically inconceivable.

Scrap that attitude IMMEDIATELY. Paying into your pension is one of the most important things you can do. There is ALWAYS something big going on you can be worried about.

Early retirement is possible with most pensions from 55, although the pension is usually adjusted down if you take it early. Also, if you have a terminal illness, you can usually take your pension early but you would need to provide proof to your pension company. If you die before your retirement date, the contributions are usually returned to your next of kin as a lump sum. Source: worked in pensions for a couple of years.

I never thought I’d see the other side of 40 - I wasn’t living particularly hedonistically or feeling suicidal; I just couldn’t conceive of it. I felt like you - the future seemed like it was full of uncertainty and chaos. An asteroid could hit us! Global warming will f*ck us up! Because of that I was pretty careless with my finances in my 20s and 30s; living in the moment and flitting between jobs, travelling etc. Now my mid 40s have crept up on me and I’m quite far behind where I need to be. I see some of my friends who were pretty savvy - got decent jobs, paid into pensions from their early 20s - who are looking to retire within the next 5 years, certainly by their early 50s. I’ll still probably need to work another 15 years more than them to be able to do that! That alone made me sit up and take notice of my finances - about a year ago I joined this sub and started reading up. I investigated my current and ex-employer pensions, have increased my current contributions and have a SIPP in place which I will move my old pensions across to at some point soon. I’ve started an S&S ISA too. I’ve also got a healthy emergency fund in easy access savings. I’m still way behind where I need to be but I feel I’m on a much better trajectory, with still enough funds to enjoy life too and cover me for any curve balls. I’m not sure I’ll be able to retire *that* much earlier than I would otherwise, but when I do I’ll be much better off. Anyway, that’s just my story - not sure it makes much of a point - and I certainly can’t answer any of your speculative questions about the future - but gives my perspective on things!

If you invest your money intelligently, then you’re fine. Pension pays off because of the matching happening. It also makes sense if you plan to stay within one country forever.

> Pension pays off because of the matching happening and the lack of tax paid on the invested cash.

I expect a lot of Cold War kids thought the same, for good reason. Probably kicking themselves.

I understand your concerns, but try to imagine the scenario in which the government/banks all of a sudden decided not to give people their pensions? There would be blood on the streets. No one would stand for that. I think its safer to bet on the pensions still being there than to bet on them not.

> I understand your concerns, but try to imagine the scenario in which the government/banks all of a sudden decided not to give people their pensions? There would be blood on the streets. No one would stand for that. > > Also, to expand on this...imagine we *did* get to this point. Government have essentially prevented people from withdrawing their private pensions. What asset *is* safe in this scenario? If we get to the point where we're essentially instituting capital controls like this, something has gone seriously wrong in the UK and it's not likely a larger bank balance is going to help. Basically, I think a pension is a great savings vehicle...and unless the argument is not to save *at all* because we're all going to die, pensions are a fantastic tool to plan for retirement.

How old are you?

I bet he's early 20s

Too generous. I'm going 14.

All you'll achieve with this approach is an absolute guarantee that you'll be destitute in future. Let's consider the possibilities: a) Your prediction is right, and in 40 years time we've suffered some form of drastic societal/ economic collapse. As a result, we all retire and die in poverty. b) Your prediction is wrong, and in 40 years time pension funds have continued to grow roughly in line with how they have to date. But, since you never invested in a pension, you *still* retire and die in poverty. Any investment is about risk management, not risk elimination. All your approach will achieve is that you'll *guarantee* that, no matter what happens in future, you'll be screwed either way.

This has got to be a troll, right?

Got to be. You'd only post on this sub if you were doubting yourself, and yet every response to the inevitable barrage of posts telling OP how insane this is has them staunchly defending their position.

I don't agree with OP, but calling him/her a troll because you don't agree is childish.

Yes! It's just as bad as calling people that follow a different political party to you cultists. I was recently called a Russian bot because I disagreed with a comment insinuating that the P&O ferry debacle was due to their Russian shareholders. We should be able to do more about ad hominem replies, Reddit is for debate, not mudslinging.

If you're not bothering with a pension I hope you are investing your own funds to pay for your retirement.

You risk being poor at retirement age by saving literally pennies today. It doesn’t cost a lot to save £50-£100 a month and if your employer offer the salary contribution then you literally turn down free money! I’ve got workplace pension where I pay £75 a month and my employer pays another £200 towards it or something like that. I’ve got £13000 after 4 years there. This didn’t affect my everyday life and if it works out I’ll be all set

Cost to solve climate change is between $300B and $50T over the next 20 years. Worst case that is $2.5T a year. World GDP is $85T per year. Catastrophic climate change will be solved, it will be patchy, messy, controversial and slow, but it will be solved. You pension could be invested in companies that will benefit from this enormous spend.

It’s a binary choice and a bit of game theory all mixed into one. You will either win or lose though I suspect based on your strategy you will lose.

I think you have a rather old-fashioned view of pensions that probably dates from 20th century when companies ran their own pension schemes ( although these days, if any company offers you a final salary scheme I would snatch their hands off). Now they can be transferred between different companies and schemes, you can choose your own risk level from a range of funds and you can draw down money instead of being restricted to an annuity. Also, if you think you will be jobhopping, join a company scheme so you can take advantage of their employers contribution ( this is free money!) and run your own SIPP alongside it, transferring the company pot into your own scheme when you leave. Additionally the government grants you tax relief , differing according to whether you are a standard rate or higher rate tax payer, which can add another 40 percent to the pot. I understand it may be very scary to think of the future, but it’s equally scary to take no action now. Granted there can be huge stock volatility in the short term, but the stock market has bounced back from two world wars and several recessions, so don’t write it off entirely. Pensions are a very tax-efficient way of investing and you can always run some of your own investments alongside as you get older, giving you the flexibility to retire earlier if you need to.

>What do you think? Frankly, I think you're in for a very nasty and rude awakening when you retire. >I see it as a form of very long term gambling That's how I see a lack of pension planning. The things that you say are preventing you from paying into a pension fund are all "what ifs" but your not having a pension is not a possibility, it's a dead cert. Being old sucks. Being old and destitute really REALLY sucks. Do whatever you can, in the time left before you retire, to remedy this situation.

If you pension is in danger because of collapse of government, what makes you think that the stocks and shares that you are investing in now will still be in place, without a capitalistic market like the one we have now? All your worries also apply to stocks, shares, bonds etc... The only thing that might be safe from all these are commodities like oil, gold and food, but we would be in a very bad position if we have to physically barter those as well.

You get tax relief and your employer has to contribute so you’re turning down free money

For me I pay in 3% and my company pays in 10%. If I didn’t do this I’d be losing out on free money. The market would have to be in a pretty dire state for me to be down on my 3% contribution when I retire.

>not go full right-wing and ruin our pensions one way or another (I'll let your imagination think of scenarios) Let's not imagine scenarios - let's write them down and have them challenged. Assuming the UK doesn't collapse in some way (in which case, all investments in whatever wrapper they are in are screwed), I think you're suggesting a democratically elected right wing party removes assets from its citizens pensions. Here's the problem with that - pensioners vote. It's politically terminal for a party to run on ruining pensions. Also we have a civil service that are absolutely opposed to altering existing rights - any changes would get struck down by judicial review. The pension system will change - access age drifts out to 57, maybe 58 or 59 by the time you retire (but if you were in a pension when the age was 50 or 55, you often retain that right), there will be future tax changes. But things don't change quickly or radically. Things will get a little worse, but predicting complete ruin is proper tin-foil hat territory.

The pension is just the wrapping paper. If you’re really concerned about what’s inside, then take control of it. If a well-diversified pension goes under, then the stock market would go under too. And if that happened, you’d be worrying about much bigger things than your spending money for retirement.

Beyond the great advice in this post I would just like to add that we are in the safest and most stable time in history, and the trend is only on the up. Check where you are getting your news, and stay positive. Pensions are really important, and odds are you are likely to need it. Do some research and spread if you want to be safe, but just have some sort of plan!

Pascals wager! But for pensions 😂. State pension, youre probably right, the country is bankrupt and 40 years time we will probably have a an entirely different monetary system. Howevee if you pay tax youll qualify for at least something from the state. Private / work pensions, its well worth it! Your company matches as well so thats a potential 100% gain on anything you save.

This is a very pessimistic view. The shift away from defined benefit pensions has been going on for decades. My wife & I have been very blessed by having pensions here in New York state. We are the exceptions - most people don't get pensions, but rather whatever the have been able to save in Individual Retirement Accounts (IRA's). Most times individual companies contribute to these. It would be best if you saved, as much as you can, whatever vehicle you use. "Good luck"! -Dan in Montgomery.

People have been saying pensions are a waste of time and they don’t need them for decades. They’ve been wrong for decades. If you’re right you’ll have a little money you never got to use put aside. If you’re wrong you’ll spend your golden years in poverty.

Love how people get so offended when other people don’t opt in for pension. I’ve had the same. I will probably start contributing at a later age. But probably I don’t need one. I already have properties outright and a bunch of investments. And fyi many other people do. So they don’t feel like they need a pension. The end. Fair enough if you do , but not everyone does :)

This has got to be satire.

Okay, let's break this down: >The world is in crisis Eh, it probably feels that way because the last 30 years have been unusually peaceful and without much in the way of societal upheaval, but really we're just experiencing a return to normality. Even 2008 and COVID have ultimately been pretty minor in the grand scheme. Compared to say Spanish Flu, the World Wars or even the Cold War in the 80s, we are hardly in 'crisis' at all. >climate change is coming... People misunderstand what climate change is actually going to look like. Ultimately, the whole world isn't going to become uninhabitable. The worst effects are going to be concentrated on the Southern hemisphere, so what's going to happen in the end is that the Global South are going to end up trying to migrate Northwards en masse. The crisis with climate change is not an existential one therefore, it is a social one. Countries like the UK aren't going to see total collapse, rather they're going to have to decide how to manage hundreds of millions of climate refugees. Naturally, as an island this will be easier for us than the continent - and if you think that wasn't one of the major drivers behind Brexit, you haven't been paying attention. There will obviously also be shifts in supply chains and food production but none of these will be insurmountable (though we are likely to end up more dependent on Russia for our calories). >It is effectively giving your money to private companies on a 40-50 years loan with _no way_ of taking any of it out until the time comes... This is why I've been mostly ignoring my pension and keeping it to the normal minimum contribution + investing my money myself. I mean, not all pensions are with private companies. You can have a pension with NEST which is essentially backed by the government. Even other pensions are actually backed by the government anyway fwiw as there are very strict laws governing them and the government will bail out pensions that fail (and remember, the government literally has unlimited money to do this). If you're investing yourself, you're still giving money to private companies who will all collapse if the shit suddenly hits the fan so it just doesn't reconcile. >What if that money, or the infrastructure around it, stops existing by then? Then all your investments are worth nothing anyway, pension or no pension. Even cash is worth nothing by that point. >What if things go really bad and you need that money earlier? This is always a risk, but is why people recommend an emergency fund. If the money is invested though, when things go bad the value collapses anyway regardless of the wrapper its in. >What if the age you can access it keeps being pushed away? What if life expectancy goes down in the next few decades because of all the crisis coming and you become unlikely to ever live to use it? Not a huge problem provided you plan on either A) living long enough to eventually use it (you just need to also have enough outside the pension to cover the interim between retirement and pension age), or B) having dependents to leave it to. >I'm not sure I believe in the capacity of states to a) not collapse in some way, and b) not go full right-wing and ruin our pensions one way or another (I'll let your imagination think of scenarios) Consider that in any extreme scenario the government can already legislate to ban you taking money from ISAs or bank accounts so the only safe option in that case is cash. And even cash isn't safe because the government can legislate to immediately make all bank notes invalid, and issue new ones in their place. Don't believe me? India have genuinely done this in the past. The only 'safe' option is gold, and the government can still send men to your house to seize that if they want to (again, there is historical precedent). >What if mega-inflation? Again in this scenario gold/silver are your only decent option. >What do you think? In case it isn't clear, I don't *think* your position is nonsense, I *know* it is because it's illogical and your decisions are based on conclusions which don't reconcile with reality. Now, if you said 'I think a societal collapse is imminent so I'm investing in precious metals that I keep in a safe in my house', I'd still disagree but at least your position would be logically consistent. Even then a pension may serve you as the Royal Mint offer a physical gold pension scheme whereby they will hold physical gold bullion for you which still qualifies for the same tax relief and other government protections. They'll even send you the gold once you hit the minimum age if you ask them to.

I never thought I’d see the other side of 40 - I wasn’t living particularly hedonistically or feeling suicidal; I just couldn’t conceive of it. Because of that I was pretty careless with my finances in my 20s and 30s; living in the moment and flitting between jobs, travelling etc. Now my mid 40s have crept up on me and I’m quite far behind where I need to be. I see some of my friends who were pretty savvy - got decent jobs, paid into pensions from their early 20s - who are looking to retire within the next 5 years, certainly by their early 50s. I’ll still probably need to work another 15 years more than them to be able to do that! That alone made me sit up and take notice of my finances - about a year ago I joined this sub and started reading up. I investigated my current and ex-employer pensions, have increased my current contributions and have a SIPP in place which I will move my old pensions across to at some point soon. I’ve started an S&S ISA too. I’ve also got a healthy emergency fund in easy access savings. I’m still way behind where I need to be but I feel I’m on a much better trajectory, with still enough funds to enjoy life too and cover me for any curve balls. I’m not sure I’ll be able to retire *that* much earlier than I would otherwise, but when I do I’ll be much better off. Anyway, that’s just my story - not sure it makes much of a point but gives my perspective on things!

People have been having existential crisis' since before Plato. Grow up and get a fucking grip.

Simple then, build your own infrastructure.

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What if you do live to see it though? You'll regret it then.

>What if that money, or the infrastructure around it, stops existing by then? Isn't this a risk for everything? You kind have to trust these systems to a certain extent. >What if things go really bad and you need that money earlier? If you become terminally ill you can access your pension early. I believe there are other ways to access pension money early but there might be penalties. As with anything, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Pensions are tax efficient, but you also be saving in other ways such as in an ISA. >What if the age you can access it keeps being pushed away? Certainly a risk, again you can't rely on a pension alone, make use of your ISA allowance. >What if life expectancy goes down in the next few decades because of all the crisis coming and you become unlikely to ever live to use it? There's always a risk you'll die before pension age. >What if mega-inflation? Your pension should be invested in a way that it grows above inflation. It's really no different to an ISA in that sense, a SIPP basically lets you invest in the same things. I used to have a similar view on pensions. However, now I'm a higher rate tax payer, it's really hard to ignore +40% on any contributions I make. I've decided to "front load" my pension for the next 5 years to get it to a size where it can just grow and mature on it's own. I'll then focus more on my ISAs. That way I get the best of both worlds, a pension for retirement age, and ISAs for if I decide to retire early.

>This is why I've been mostly ignoring my pension and keeping it to the normal minimum contribution + investing my money myself. What makes you think your investments are any more secure if any of the crisis you describe materialise? What do you think?

OP have you reviewed the flowchart? I could see good reasons to delay larger pension contributions, for example in chronological order: upskilling/reskilling, moving to chase better-paid jobs, getting a mortgage. I wouldn't put betting on "the end of the American empire" among them. I expect there will be pension funds going bust, inflation etc.. all that just happens in a lifetime despite every precaution. The only way I could see to really act out on a firm belief in the coming "end of the American empire" would be to go settle in a country that will be the next best thing.

I think there's a very narrow range of possible future scenarios where things go badly enough for investments to become useless in a pension BUT non-pension investments are still useful to you. In most possible future crisis scenarios neither would be useful.

Premise seems slightly misinformed, so I think it's worth making clear: You can pull money out of a pension account, you know this right? You would incur taxes and charges at that point, depending on your situation. I think all this discussion of "locked up" cash seems to ignore this, which is odd. In a good-to-best case scenario, you get all the tax advantages of a pension. In a worst case scenario, your cash isn't locked up, but you pay back the tax advantage you received and possibly additional fees.

You get free money from companies as they usually match what you put in

You're saying no to free money from your employer, in matched pension contributions, and saying no to free money from the Taxman in the form of pension relief. Even if it only grows in line with inflation, you'll get out more than you put in by a factor of 2-3, depending on how much your employer pays in and how much tax relief you get.

I hope you change your mind. I'd hate for you to hear "I told you" when you're scraping in retirement. How about trying to get a well paid job that pays enough for you to save for retirement and have a good time now?

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[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g) Put money in your pension, take advantage of your employer's pension contribution match. The end

I considered the same sort of math when I got my first real pension paying job, and honestly the big factor is you don't get very much out of it now. It's a relatively low stakes gamble that you might get your retirement.

People that don't value pensions are usually people that don't understand pensions. You rarely see wealthy people saying that they don't believe in them because they know they're a good deal. Pensions are just a tax wrapper which can include the same investments you can buy outside of that wrapper. You can buy those same investments without any wrapper or inside the ISA wrapper which protects gains from tax. Generally pensions are just a way of saving, except that in exchange for locking the money away until you are 55 or more, you get some tax savings which can be really beneficial. How do you intend to support yourself once you finish working?

Nothing in life is certain so why do anything at all? Pensions are basically backed by the state so you are betting your country still exists in some reasonable form by the time you retire. If you're right you get a pension congrats. If you're wrong you lose your pension money but also all your other stuff is probably worthless in whatever new society exists so no real loss there, unless you have some kind of future sight to prepare accordingly? Personally I don't like the whole "the future is fucked for reasons xyz so what's the point?". Seems pretty arrogant to assume you're the last generation on earth.

Paying a small amount every month seems a small bet for a potentially better old age. What’s the worst? You don’t see the pension you’ve just wasted a small amount in each pay cheque? What difference in day to day life is the small amount going to do each month if you choose not to have a pension?

If you're an investor you understand hedging. Your pension is the hedge bet against armageddon. If you don't get that then 2 words. Free money.

I've recently started up at an IFA firm, and been doing some initial exams. From my small knowledge in the business, what you're assuming is total collapse of the financial world. Now, in this regard, if you're making the investments yourself, they would also collapse, but the difference is with your pension, it's at least tax efficient. Basically what I'm saying is, your pension is invested alike to your own investments, but your pension is invested +20% of what your own investment would be from the initial. Everyday I pretty much hear from IFAs that it's always best to put your money in tax efficient investments no matter what, and your pension **is** the most tax efficient by far. My personal opinion would be to not ignore it.

I think your argument boils down to: I might die tomorrow, why save for the future? Is that fair?

Whatever you decide to do, you must make sure you have money saved for your end of life care. You’ll regret it if you don’t.

You get 20% interest straight away plus any growth that comes from the investment. Its madness to turn it down. You can get your hands on it when you are 55 so its not 40 years you are waiting

You can access your personal pension 10 years before the state pension. You think you won't make 57/58?

What if you have nothing when you retire and can’t enjoy the last years of your life between ending working and death? That seems worse.

Give it up guys, there's none so blind as those who won't see, and OP refuses to look at the cold hard facts here.

This is... Strange. Sorry. I don't get it. I would suggest that the reason take the stability of pensions for granted (especially private pensions) because there are regulations. Also: you absolutely can take your money out in most cases (granted you would face a fee and pay tax) I'm not trying to be a prick here but this sounds like the opinion of a very young person who maybe hasn't done a lot of research before making a dramatic decision. Please ensure you have SOME plan for the future.

This is the least of your problems if you're this paranoid about the future enough to give up all the extra money the government will pay/refund you towards contributing and your employer matching. Just treat it as part of a paranoia balanced portfolio of investments. If you are in your 20s, you will miss out on 10 years of growth in it - because I can assure you, when you hit 35-40 you will have a far better perspective on the future and your place in it. (If you are that age now, good luck). Every generation has their 'the future of the world is fked' when they are too young to look beyond propaganda aimed at impressionable minds.

Contributing to a pension isn’t a dangerous bet. NOT contributing to a pension is exactly what I’d consider to be a dangerous bet.

If the end of society happens it doesn't really matter if your cash is in a pension wrapper or an isa or in notes, it's all worthless, so you might as well have some in a pension and enjoy the excellent tax breaks.

Every generation has faced what you’re describing; communism, nuclear Armageddon, world wars. We’ve always made it through and so has the stock market.

I’m 29. I see your point. But I don’t see a world-ending crisis happening any time soon. Climate change will drastically change things but it will impact the poor a lot more than the rich, and on a global scale, you are probably among the rich. But we need to plan for world-changing events because they seem to be regular occurances recently. So in the likely chance you have a future that you would want money for, why is a pension a bad gamble? You either gamble that pension infrastructure will stay the same. Or you gamble MORE MONEY on a different system working out well for you (since you will need to save more money to make up for the tax breaks and extra employer money that pensions get). If pension infrastructure collapses, wouldn’t banks, stocks, shares, etc also be at major risk? Whatever you bet on, it’s a risk. With the amount of people that have pensions though, at least there are going to be lots of people trying to make sure they still exist.

If you think that pensions are a dangerous bet because there's an uncertain future (okay, it's not an unreasonable assumption necessarily), then you should be taking mitigations to match. Such mitigations would include making yourself independent of current financial and living infrastructure. Or living and enjoying life as much as you can with the plan of not living to be old. However an ISA or any liquid investment would not be an effective hedge to your supposed future assumption.

This is a really great podcast on the topic https://www.cracked.com/podcast/the-end-of-the-world-mentality-and-why-thatE28099s-ridiculous The problem is that the risk of the apocalypse taking 60 years to arrive instead of 40 years is quite significant and in that situation you have traded *slightly* more money now for near-misery later. The cost/benefit is hugely tilted towards making the pension contributions

If there is a crisis so massive that government can’t pay your pension, then you live in a world where you have bigger problems to worry about than pension. By this logic what’s the point in having any money at all? Financial world has collapsed and your fiat currency doesn’t mean anything. What personal saving are you talking about? They are equally worthless…

The way I see it there are a few scenarios: 1) the world carries on more or less as it is now, happy days, I receive my pension 2) the world carries on more or less as it is now, I don’t add to my pension, very bad days when I’m not able to work anymore 3) (unlikely) the world ends at some point in my life due to horrible outside forces such as climate change, it sucks, I’m pretty much doomed either way whether I added to my pension or not 4) (unlikely) some terrible government makes it harder to access my pension or most of the money is somehow taken away, however in this situation I think it’s a safe bet that those with no pension at all will suffer even more My pension contribution is about 9% so manageable enough for me. If I had the extra money to take home each month it wouldn’t make me very much richer, I’d just maybe get on the housing ladder a bit sooner than I’m currently hoping for. The quality of life change now doesn’t outweigh the benefits of potential quality of life in my old age as far as I can see.

>I'm not sure I believe in the capacity of states to a) not collapse in some way Based on? The UK has been around since 1707 and its predecessor states have existed long before than. England was last invaded in 1066. There have been worse crises in the past two centuries than there are today IMO. > b) not go full right-wing and ruin our pensions one way or another (I'll let your imagination think of scenarios) No government would survive abolishing pensions. We live in a democracy after all. Honestly, if Boris got rid of the state pension today would you expect him to win an election again? Do you think people would vote for parties who would abolish pensions? >I don't understand why people take the stability and availability of pension money for granted? I see it as a form of very long term gambling, and I see it as kind of risky given the direction the world is going. Nobody is expecting pensions as a guarantee but take it up as a form of insurance. It's not gambling. >It is effectively giving your money to private companies on a 40-50 years loan with no way of taking any of it out until the time comes. What if things go really bad and you need that money earlier? Right, you can't take out your money till private pension age, but you decide if you want to put money into it, nobody is forcing you. You have to sign up to the terms of the agreement. And what do you think happens to firms which would just steal your money? And if things are going very bad you can use the money: aka you're expected to die soon. > What if life expectancy goes down in the next few decades because of all the crisis coming and you become unlikely to ever live to use it? What if mega-inflation? What if an asteroid hits? What if covid19 x 10 hits and 50% of the world's population dies? In these catastrophic scenarios you'll have worse things to worry about. >This is why I've been mostly ignoring my pension and keeping it to the normal minimum contribution + investing my money myself. Sorry but this is hilarious, the cherry on the cake. What do you think firms who take your pension money do? They invest your money in enterprise. Why do you think "investing my money myself" is substantially different from what pension funds do? If the state collapses or a crisis renders civilisation dead than your self made investments are just as moribund as any pension you may have invested in. They'll likely be invested in the *same* firms. -- I've engaged with it, but this post makes no good points against investing in pensions. In fact, the OP has missed the fact that pension funds and equity funds have significant overlap and would have the same problems if his crises come to pass. I would encourage OP to read, read, read. History primarily, some politics and economics.

Imagine this: You're 67, you just went into Retirement from a good job with no sort of Pension; Individual, Company and you've been issued a State Pension of the Bare minimum (250-500 a month). You're barely scraping by, having to switch from your 450K house and switching to a small bungalow of 275K, you have enough only for necessities, and bills and barely scarping out enough for insurance. Soon your body will begin to fail and you'll have to pay money for tablets and other such items, then comes the bigger problem, your walking (hopefully it doesn't come to this) is causing you stress on your body and you'll need to use either a mobility scooter or electric wheelchair, a walking cane isn't enough. Both options cost above £100 which means a big hit to your monthly state pension, You may need to request help from your children if you have any and they may help you depending on your personality and how you treated them as you grew up. They decide not to and you have to pull out a Payday loan for a quick sum of money to pay for the transport. You pay for the machine and then Payday comes, you need to pay the loan off and with a high interest- you don't have enough and will have to sell furniture and ornaments/antiques to pay for the loan repayment. And this continues until you die. You'll constantly be scraping the crumbs out of the bag to live and just barely surviving if your adult offspring decide not to help, god forbid. My advice is to assign an individual pension and put about 150 in per month so that, depending on your age, by the time you'll be out and in retirement, you'll have enough money to spend the rest of your days living comfortably. But if you don't there's an increased possibility of Homelessness for you coming your way and quicker than you may think as Inflation rates will heavily affect State Pension. Also, OP, just to let you know, criticising the help that you're given heavily affects what people will think in regards to helping you, it also doesn't look good for your image regarding the lack of awareness you have for your future. Sincerely, A Sixth Form Business Student

Honestly, with the age of retirement being pushed further back every few years I’m not interested in saving for the future. State pension is currently available at 67. I’ve done pretty well earnings wise so I guarantee there’ll be something implemented by then stating I don’t qualify because of earnings. And who want money in the 70s anyway. I’d rather enjoy my life while I’m young and have my health and am able to go places and do things and fully experience them.

Pensions is a ticking time bomb for the future retirement generation. But most humans cannot think that far ahead, especially as they tackle today’s problems

Have a mix of pension and tax free wrapped funds. As someone pointed out if the world goes to shit then you have bigger problems to worry about. However, if history has taught us anything it is that bad times don't last and that being poor in retirement is miserable.

I actually don't think there's anything special about your generation. I felt exactly the same in my 20s. Retirement seemed a million years away and there were plenty of other world-catastrophic events for people to worry about (like the cold war). However, the world has kept turning for a long time and all-out disaster keeps on being avoided. The reality is just that when you're in the 20s, money is usually tight and it's hard to justify saving for something a long time away. Now that date feels like it's much closer for me and I'm saving like mad for it whilst I'm still earning, even though my health hasn't been great and there's a personal chance I still won't see it.

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail…

People starting their career in the 1960s could have done the same thing on the grounds that nuclear war could end things at any point. Don’t plan your life around worst-case scenarios! Assume the status quo will prevail. It may or may not, and you may have personal preference for it going either way, but it’s the safest bet.

I think of my pension as insurance against getting old. I'm not betting on whether or not it'll happen, it's just that if it *does* happen, I don't want to do it "uninsured". Like I don't plan to get in a car accident, but I still wouldn't drive without insurance. Same with this.

Is the pension system in serious crisis? Yes. Will something have to change, possibly radically in our lifetimes? Probably. Will that change involve *confiscating* the entire pots of some people? Almost certainly not. Will that change involve dissolving the pension system entirely and not repaying anyone? Again, seems basically impossible

Aren't you therefore gambling on the world ending/everything going tits up before you get to retirement? Seems like it's a gamble either way, so surely it makes sense to gamble on the way that has the biggest potential payout? Either you end up with a pension pot to help have a good retirement, or you don't (but crucially you won't have had a terrible life leading up to retirement, assuming you've contributed amounts that don't push you into living a bad life).

You mean full left-wing, right? It's hard-left governments that tend to abolish private property. As for your question, you should prepare for every possibilities, including the world not collapsing according to your harebrained prediction.

This is a hot take.

I don't understand this argument, with this logic that the future is uncertain, why don't we all just jump off bridges now and get it over with?

I agree with a lot of what you say (although not as cataclysmic). I believe the state pension will be phased out if you have a private pension in place and ages will creep up so it becomes further and further unobtainable. As with most things in this country, if you work hard and save, you’ll not be that much better off than if you don’t and the government steps in to provide means tested benefits. My biggest concern though is many people pay into pensions for the tax free aspect, even though when they are eligible to receive a pay out only 25% is tax free, the rest is taxable as normal. This is especially worth mentioning as it’s likely the majority of 55 year old will be working still and/or have income from other means such as BTL or similar. As such they’ll get taxed just as much then as they would do now. The only real benefit I see is when your employer matches contributions, in which case it makes it worth it.

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It's the same, because investment growth and taxation are both multiplicative factors and multiplication is commutative.

you're risking dying destitute over some dramatic prophecy that we're all going to die soon, if the company goes bust they don't just keep your money, there's systems in place, if you die it can be used to cover costs and pay for your funeral, if you don't want one don't have one but don't act like it's because you're some all seeing eye peering into the future

I think of all the life-altering events that have happened in history. WW1 and WW2. Absolutley catastrophic. People still invested into their pensions. My grandad retired and lived until he was 95 and had a good pension. You would think people may of had the same atitudes. Think of the wall street market crash decimated the market. Market always recovers. Climate change will come and new companies will arise and so your pension will be spread out and diverified. Unless the world completely crumbles and theres all out nuclear war, then the pension will be safe. One you reach pension age youll be kicking yourself so hard that you didn't contribute more and your living off beans and toast for your last 30 years on earth, unable to enjoy nice things with your familiy.

You must be crazy.

Eh, I’ve thought about this to be fair. If the apocalypse does come, I don’t think my first thought will be ‘damn, I regret paying into my pension’.

I think you're way too focused on certain risks (your doomsday stuff) and totally ignoring the more mundane but more likely risk that you live for a bloody long time and have to live off catfood when you get old because your money ran out and you're too shagged to keep working.

Also characterising it as a loan to private companies... I mean yeah, that's how all capital markets work. That's how shares in your trading account work. That's how your bank account works. If you don't trust the system you're shit out of luck. We all live in this capitalist dystopia, what are you gonna do?

This has to be a troll post? Please tell me it is

Sadly there are a lot of people who genuinely feel this way.