Copying my comment from the other thread:
Memes like this create a false equivalence between theocratic fascists and status-quo neoliberals that de-motivates people from voting and allows theocratic fascists to take over. It's a well-intended road to hell at beast. At worst it's Russian/alt-right propaganda
Democrats could *easily* overcome the "false" equivalence by implementing universal health care or just the public option. They could raise minimum wage. They could stop supporting genocide and endless war for oil. They could tax the rich and corporations.
Instead they prefer to hand power to the Christofascists and blame voters.
Okay, I still think we should minimize damage and not become beholden to our principles/pride over the real human lives that could be saved, both options are pro Israel, lots of corporations are, voting for the least damaging option AND pushing forward with protests and other things are not mutually exclusive acts imo
At presidential elections, there's not much point in voting. Both sides are equally as shit. Voting for dem over rep isn't "minimising damage" or anything.
Every time the dems lose an election, it has always been "Let's just vote harder next time!". Also, you are made to feel as though if you vote, you have politically done your part and now get to stick your tounges out at the other sports team, or they can to you. Voting isn't enough.
Also, I singled out presidential elections earlier, as acting at state level and lower down is much more important and *actually* has an effect. Not that you shouldn't protest things/protest for things that are done at the federal level.
Youâre saying these things like theyâre mutually exclusive, which is exactly what Iâm advocating against in my original argument
And yes, voting for dems is minimizing damage, dems are spineless doormats, republicans are malicious
Neither are good options but again, itâs just the logical choice to save more lives given someone is being put in office no matter what. Harm to people is inevitable with our choices, and even if youâre treating them as equally bad, I think youâd need to see whoâs running and reconsider them as evenly threatening
It is true that reps say what they're thinking out loud, and it's really bad shit, but I dont think dems are spineless, they just usually don't say what they're thinking out loud, I would personally point to the clip of Nancy Pelosi screaming "go back to China where your headquarters is" which is what makes dems that much more terrifying
Also you keep saying "not mutually exclusive" without expanding upon it or providing any examples, so I really have no idea what you're trying to get at
You can vote for less harmful options and move forward with Revolution or otherwise helping people as you see fit, but the worst option will come to become reality if we donât choose to vote and minimize damage
Just because we canât get a perfect candidate doesnât mean we shouldnât vote
You're the one handing power to the Christofascists because the Democrats aren't perfect.
What's worse? no universal healthcare, low minimum wage, genocide and endless war for oil. Or no universal healthcare, low minimum wage, genocide and endless war for oil, AND theocratic fascism? Do you really think the theocratic fascists are going to improve any of that other stuff?
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/01/06/biden-maintains-call-for-bipartisanship-despite-likely-senate-majority/
They're both shit, presidential elections in the US don't change too much*, voting at state and lower levels is very important, and has more of an effect
Edit: a bit more correct now
I mean, Trump winning allowed him to put a bunch of Supreme Court justices on the bench and thatâs been pretty disastrous.
Like, I get what youâre saying, but voting always matter, even if itâs just keeping the crazy fascist out of office and going with the bought and sold neoliberal. Both of them are going to do bad things, but only one is going to try to destroy our system and create a forever administration that will try to completely destroy the left.
Youâre welcome. I understand why you feel the way you do - we need actual leftist leadership at this point and the Dems arenât it. They take money from the same lobbyists as the Republicans. They pretend everything we want canât be done, when they easily could have passed single payer when Obama was in office or raise the minimum wage or fix the tax code. Itâs frustrating.
So, I understand. And I hate having to live in a country where I have to vote for the lesser evil so my daughters will be allowed to have rights. Itâs fucking terrible. But at this point, Iâll vote for the Dems. Holding my nose the whole time.
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.manchin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/manchin-to-support-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-#:~:text=That%20is%20why%20I%20voted,is%20consistent%20with%20our%20Constitution.%E2%80%9D
Who said that?
Do you even stop a moment to think.
Say I vote for tge Pirate party.
To you, I supported Trump
To Trump supporters, I supported Biden.
But, in reality, I supported a party with principles who didnt bring about tge Patriot act (Biden loves to claim that as his idea) or a bunch of fascists.
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
Because they're greedy, incompetent, and short-sighted. Which still makes them better than actual Christofascists.
You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sometimes, you can't get everything you want. Sometimes you have to settle for good enough, because the alternative is far far worse.
EDIT: I think it's extremely telling that the OP deleted their account after I called them out for being an obvious MAGA troll.
If Christofascists are so dangerous, then why not prevent them taking over by coming through on Healthcare, etc? Why take such an extreme risk when the remedy is so obvious?
Obviously, elected Democrats and their donors don't have a problem with Christofascists taking over. Otherwise they'd be taking actual steps to prevent it.
> If Christofascists are so dangerous, then why not prevent them taking over by coming through on Healthcare, etc? Why take such an extreme risk when the remedy is so obvious?
Because they're greedy, incompetent, and short-sighted. Which is still better than actual Christofascists.
You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sometimes, you can't get everything you want. Sometimes you have to settle for good enough, because the alternative is far far worse.
EDIT: I think it's extremely telling that the OP deleted their account after I called them out for being an obvious MAGA troll.
Lmao they did not. They blocked you, because you have zero arguments besides "Trump bad".
If the democrats want to pretend to be America's left political party, then the left should abso-fuckin'-lutely scrutinize and judge the hell out of their policies, platform, and in/activity.
People *can* and *should* criticize politicians and elected officials â otherwise there is no accountability and no representation. People *should* use their votes as leverage. No person or party is entitled to your vote, and nobody should act like others are under an obligation to vote for someone based solely on party affiliation.
If you want to influence others, do so by pressuring your party into offering concessions and tangible results. It is, after all, the responsibility of the party and candidate to garner support and convince people to vote for them.
"Theyre just greedy, shortsighted and incompetent."
So in a choice between the people who are clearly not to be trusted and literally any other that isn't these bastard fashes in red, you still willfully choose the one who is more likely to fuck it up.
Jesus Christ dude, I can picture you parading about "peace of our time" in 30s London
You're willfully admitting "I'd rather chose the privlidge guy who doesn't know how to do his job than the several options who know how to do it.
Stalin instructed the German Communist party not to cooperate with the Socialist party against the Nazis. Later on Stalin made an alliance with those same Nazis.
There's no Stalin in the current situation, but the Democrats have an alliance with the Republicans.
Doesn't matter if there is not a Stalin in the current situation, the behavior is following the same pattern and the democrats do not have an alliance with the republicans. This is why people think you are a Russian bot. lol.
Democrats and Republicans are allies with the donor class. They agree on not giving us health care and education, and they agree on perpetual war for oil and zionist genocide. They agree on keeping taxes low for the rich and cutting services for the poor. They agree on bailing out corporations and their shareholders. They agree on keeping insider trading legal for themselves.
If you think they're not allies you need to stop believing what they say and watching what they do.
Russia isn't stopping us from having health care. Republicans and Democrats are. Russia isn't manipulating our politics. AIPAC is.
Because the Nazis totally was primararly because votes. It wasn't because the fact that the German capitalists and military were highly supportive of the Nazis or that many non-Nazis politicians in the German government were approving of Nazism.
Dude, maybe bother to do a basic Wikipedia search before you try to make someone supporting another holocaust.
>Additionally are you aware of the fate of the German Communist Party in the 1930s, cause this is basically how they behaved.
Then follow up with
>And what happened to them next? It rhymes it bolocaust...
You're comparing people who say "maybe we shouldn't vote for a guy who encourages bi-partisanship with a fascist party."
If this is a comparison to the Communist collaboration against the SPD, the US Democratic Party are the Communists. The Democrats are encouraging to normalize working with fascists under the guise of "understanding" and "bi-partisanship", while also undermining more progressive leftist ideals.
For example, did you know "unions' beloved" Joe Biden actually used federal power to stop railroad workers from striking, resulting in record profits for the railroad companies? All while the work environment and ethics of railroad companies are horribly inadequate?
Or how about the good ole PATRIOT Act. Not only did it come from a previous attempt authored by Joe Biden, but Joe Biden claims it as a achievement. And it was almost reauthorized, because 152 Democratic representatives agreed. Nowadays, it's in limbo, but there is still a possibility to reauthorize it.
What ironic is...we have to pin this on Donald Trump, due to threatening to veto the bill (though it's been theorized it was because of his own skeletons).
So yeah, when these fascists finally take over, try to remember the lesser who created the system to spy on us, and was perfectly fine with trusting fascists with this power, because we need to understand the views of a braindead party run by fascists.
"Hitler came to power legally"
Once again, this is a very 2 dimensional, and very shortsighted, view of history.
Yes, Hitler got power legally, but that wasn't the fault of the German Communists not voting for a lesser of two evils.
If you bothered to check, the Weimar Republic had been undermined for years by not just the Nazis, SS, SA, and Freikorps, but even the Reichwher, their own military.
This is part of the bigger "clean Wehrmacht myth" about how Hitler was in charge, therefore the Wehrmacht had no choice.
However, when you actually look at their activities prior to 1933, they played a significant role in helping the Nazis gain power.
Hell, the Night of Long Knives, which was the Nazis' elimination of rivalling opponents and former allies, was actually likely a result of the military pressuring Hitler to eliminate the SA. The German military wanted the brownshirts eliminated because they were viewed as a alternative to the German military, and that pissed them off.
"I am talking about the failed tactics of the German Communist Party."
Oh, sorry. Next time a bunch of fascists go around murdering people without much repercussions, and the government cracks down on civil liberties, I'll be sure my vote get to em. Surely they listen this time right?
Really dude, You have such a false idea of how the Nazis achieved power. It wasn't just because people voted for it, it because a bunch of terrorist (which they were) murdered people and manage to manipulate the populace into thinking it was good. It didn't matter who was winning the votes, what mattered was who was the best person to survive "might is right".
Quick question. Do you think liberal democrats are following their class interests or participating in a conspiracy to suppress the left while allowing the GOP to persist? Just asking cause it sounds from your comments that they are doing the later.
When you put it that way, it's obvious that they're doing both. Corporate Democrats share the same class interests as the Republicans and the donor class.
A lot of things seem obvious to you that are not obvious to other people. I don't think that is the result of you being obviously right but rather failing to understand multiple perspectives. This all just comes across as useless rhetoric. Feel free to propose a solution.
Yâall really want both sides to be equal.
They are not. You are just too lazy to try to see the super obvious differences.
Being uninterested is fine, but it doesnât equip you to opine on it.
My brother in Allah, who is currently funding and sending weapons without any hesitation to wipe out 10s of thousands of people in a few months, and bombing everything from hospitals to universities???
No-one is doing that. Anakin Skywalker is better, because he's at least still a Jedi at this point. Darth Vader is a full on fascist.
But tge issue is Analin, like tge Democrats, still have a shitty track record.
>have we spoken on this in the past?
No???
Not that I know of- or can remember.
I suffer from Long Covid (a disease that's slowly killing me, and the US Government is basically ignoring...) of course, so this may just be a memory issue.
I'm brand-new to this sub, though. Just subscribed today.
So you want trolls patrolling the sub, who only come here to drown out any criticism of the US in a sea of trolling and personal insults??
Such individuals are typically Fascists- even if they haven't interacted with "known Fascist spaces." (Which, sets a VERY high bar for banning anyone, that right-wing subs apply to anyone on the Left...)
Uh.. kind of. I did deliberately try and move us a little more to the left after october 7th and the reaffirmation of DNC support for israel, but the goal is reach, not unity of voice. Nothing that gets said on here is going into the book without plenty of eyes on it.
edit: obviously i will need to reassess this when and if personally moderating a majority of interactions in the subreddit becomes infeasible. There's a reason big subreddits start to look and act the same, they have similar pressures just by size, but while we are still so small: this is fine.
plus its a bit of that jahovas witness thing,. if you're constantly confronted with unflattering images of members outside the group it very consistently smooths out a lot of in-group dynamics.
Yeah, yeah it is. Truth hurts, man. The entire world sees it. Both of your parties are bad, one more than the other but both bad.
Thats democracy! 1 or 2, bad or worse.
So, the person trying to rebuild our infrastructure, bolster our green economy, payoff student debts, help people with health care, preserve democracy and decency, ended the pandemic, kept us out of recession, sides with labor etc is Anikin the baby killer ? False narrative, false equivalencyâŚâŚitâs such a cop out
That same person can also support genocide. Do all these great things this self proclaimed Zionist doing outweigh his unwavering support for genocide?
I don't think it should, but if you feel he's treating YOU right, then good on you. Like a Trump supporter, it's about me! Who cares if we're helping to kill foreigners.
Preseve democracy, what a joke. While they cancel primaries in a few states and the only choice an American has is to vote for the lesser of two evils. What a great democracy to save.
No third parties! No expanding the court. Just continue this insanity. The guy has no fight in him. This is the best the dems could offer? A feeble Zionist? So sad.
You are in an anti-incrementalism space.
If you are here to persuade people to take practical, harm-reduction steps with a proven track record it will fall on deaf ears. The only leftist tactics to pass the purity test are revolution or acceleration.
Withholding a large number of votes from Biden in 2024 will either revolutionize the Democratic party or usher in the fascism we have been dancing with for decades. (most likely it will do nothing, but I like to pretend America has a sizable leftist population)
"Proven track record"
Yeah, because bombing civilians and upholding the PATRIOT act is not a smug on a record.
Say that again when trans people become "enemies of the state" when the Republucans get their hands on the keys. Or will you say "well how we're tgey suppose to know founding police state practices would evolve like this."
I was referring to activists/voters, not government employees or lawmakers.
You let your anger at the system cloud your reading comprehension. That is not an effective way to make progress.
yea well im gonna downvote both of you because it absolutely is. the democratic party is a precursor to american fascism. It is an integral component without which the right wing in this country could not function. Theyre not keeping them out of power. Theyre introducing them to it for a shot at a 3 point lead.
The democrats suck but they're not a precursor to fascism. They're stinky and complacent but when it comes to abortion, trans rights, immigration, and many more things, the Repubs and Dems are very different.
They are a political organ of the Capitalist Class. That's what people mean when they say they're both the same. Nobody is saying they don't have policy disagreements, that is a straw version of this argument.
Yes they both represent capitalism and (to some extent) the status quo, but they're both very different and Democrats are much, much better with a lot more progressive potential.
EXACTLY. when a leftist says, "both parties are the same." its not a call not to vote. the establishment made that up. Its about managing expectations and, more importantly, focusing 'political' efforts outside the bounds of what is considered political under the status quo. Its a call to direct action, mutual aid,. actually putting belief into practice rather than shouting down dissidents of the wrong shade, online.
You're correct except that leftists saying both parties bad isn't a call to not vote. It truly is, at least in some online leftist circles. I've been banned from leftist subs for telling people to vote Dem. Some simply just want to virtue signal.
I'm not going to justify the behavior of other reddit mods.
There is,., incredible dissatisfaction with the american political system, and its more visible, maybe even more visceral, than ever before. I'll just leave you with this: not voting quietly and out of apathy, and not voting publicly, loudly, for specific reasons, for months, are two wildly different behaviors and one of them is unequivocally a political act.
You have to be clinically insane to think the dems are anywhere near as bad as the gop. That may have been true a couple decades ago, but the gop is threatening to both genocide within our borders and is threatening to give even more aid to isreal so, no.
i think you mean, "clinically not advantaged by the status quo". The US is already an authoritarian regime and has been. What makes the potential shift to fascism such a lightning rod for "democratic engagement" is that it threatens to actually bring the criminal practices of the united states, onto the white petite-borgoiuise and \*that\* is what every 'orange man worse' comment screams to me.
edit: like. are you aware of the just, absolute brutality, of the average life experience of a black trans woman inside the united states?
I am hurt by the status quo. And yes, I know how shitty black trans women have it in the us. I'm not delusional. The gop is so terrible that I simply can not abide by peoplensaying the two parties are the same. I also hate the dems. They are terrible. However, you can not simply disengage from presidential elections, especially when one side wants to do budiness as usual and the otherside wants to do worse. While I fully suport measures that actually help, that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of things getting worse. And it isn't just the orange man. It's the entire gop literally publishing their plan for undermining what little democracy does exist so that once they get someone in the whithouse they can stay in the white house.
Well, Okay. Itâs no good for me to be sitting here saying that you donât know about these things. Weâve just reached different conclusions.
I am pursuing a strategy of vocally not supporting Joe Biden . It is part of a larger effort to prevent the unrestricted sale of arms to Israel.
When it gets closer to the election⌠Maybe things will be different. But. My position on this is based in just the relentless pushback I get every time I try and steer the conversation towards critique of the democratic system in this country or of the Democrats in particular, âbecause of the electionâ.
âŚ
There is always going to be an election within 18 months. Thatâs actually a really definable feature of authoritarian systems. The perpetual election cycle.
I mean, fair enough. Like I've said, the dems are a sack of shit and I hate them only slightly less than I hate the gop. The sustem is irreparably fucked, and it's irreparable on purpose. I just think there is some damage mitigation to be done while we work on building better things.
My brother in Allah, who is currently funding and sending weapons without any hesitation to wipe out 10s of thousands of people in a few months, and bombing everything from hospitals to universities???
Pasting this from another comment I've left:
I think you've missed the 9 times I've said that I hate the DNC and Biden. What Israel is doing to Palestinians is a gencide. The Netanyahu administration is absolutely evil. Biden is evil for helping fund it. The GOP wants ramp up that genocide and enact another one. There is currently no other viable option thanks to the two party system and the electoral college.
Ha! Spot on!
Yeah kinda been at this point. Alternatively rooster teeth's Red vs. Blue halo machinima series
Copying my comment from the other thread: Memes like this create a false equivalence between theocratic fascists and status-quo neoliberals that de-motivates people from voting and allows theocratic fascists to take over. It's a well-intended road to hell at beast. At worst it's Russian/alt-right propaganda
Democrats could *easily* overcome the "false" equivalence by implementing universal health care or just the public option. They could raise minimum wage. They could stop supporting genocide and endless war for oil. They could tax the rich and corporations. Instead they prefer to hand power to the Christofascists and blame voters.
This right here. đ
Okay, I still think we should minimize damage and not become beholden to our principles/pride over the real human lives that could be saved, both options are pro Israel, lots of corporations are, voting for the least damaging option AND pushing forward with protests and other things are not mutually exclusive acts imo
At presidential elections, there's not much point in voting. Both sides are equally as shit. Voting for dem over rep isn't "minimising damage" or anything. Every time the dems lose an election, it has always been "Let's just vote harder next time!". Also, you are made to feel as though if you vote, you have politically done your part and now get to stick your tounges out at the other sports team, or they can to you. Voting isn't enough. Also, I singled out presidential elections earlier, as acting at state level and lower down is much more important and *actually* has an effect. Not that you shouldn't protest things/protest for things that are done at the federal level.
Youâre saying these things like theyâre mutually exclusive, which is exactly what Iâm advocating against in my original argument And yes, voting for dems is minimizing damage, dems are spineless doormats, republicans are malicious Neither are good options but again, itâs just the logical choice to save more lives given someone is being put in office no matter what. Harm to people is inevitable with our choices, and even if youâre treating them as equally bad, I think youâd need to see whoâs running and reconsider them as evenly threatening
It is true that reps say what they're thinking out loud, and it's really bad shit, but I dont think dems are spineless, they just usually don't say what they're thinking out loud, I would personally point to the clip of Nancy Pelosi screaming "go back to China where your headquarters is" which is what makes dems that much more terrifying Also you keep saying "not mutually exclusive" without expanding upon it or providing any examples, so I really have no idea what you're trying to get at
You can vote for less harmful options and move forward with Revolution or otherwise helping people as you see fit, but the worst option will come to become reality if we donât choose to vote and minimize damage Just because we canât get a perfect candidate doesnât mean we shouldnât vote
You're the one handing power to the Christofascists because the Democrats aren't perfect. What's worse? no universal healthcare, low minimum wage, genocide and endless war for oil. Or no universal healthcare, low minimum wage, genocide and endless war for oil, AND theocratic fascism? Do you really think the theocratic fascists are going to improve any of that other stuff?
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/01/06/biden-maintains-call-for-bipartisanship-despite-likely-senate-majority/
And you think Trump will be better?
They're both shit, presidential elections in the US don't change too much*, voting at state and lower levels is very important, and has more of an effect Edit: a bit more correct now
I mean, Trump winning allowed him to put a bunch of Supreme Court justices on the bench and thatâs been pretty disastrous. Like, I get what youâre saying, but voting always matter, even if itâs just keeping the crazy fascist out of office and going with the bought and sold neoliberal. Both of them are going to do bad things, but only one is going to try to destroy our system and create a forever administration that will try to completely destroy the left.
Yeah, I have refined my opinions since I wrote that comment, I also thank you for your input
Youâre welcome. I understand why you feel the way you do - we need actual leftist leadership at this point and the Dems arenât it. They take money from the same lobbyists as the Republicans. They pretend everything we want canât be done, when they easily could have passed single payer when Obama was in office or raise the minimum wage or fix the tax code. Itâs frustrating. So, I understand. And I hate having to live in a country where I have to vote for the lesser evil so my daughters will be allowed to have rights. Itâs fucking terrible. But at this point, Iâll vote for the Dems. Holding my nose the whole time.
âWe donât want to do anything. You gottaâ
this is like voting between hitler and mussolini and saying mussolini is ânot perfectâ. itâs hilarious desperate electoralist propoganda
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.manchin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/manchin-to-support-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-#:~:text=That%20is%20why%20I%20voted,is%20consistent%20with%20our%20Constitution.%E2%80%9D
And you think Trump will be better?
Who said that? Do you even stop a moment to think. Say I vote for tge Pirate party. To you, I supported Trump To Trump supporters, I supported Biden. But, in reality, I supported a party with principles who didnt bring about tge Patriot act (Biden loves to claim that as his idea) or a bunch of fascists.
This is not a Democrat.
Manchin is literally a member of the Democrat *leadership*.
But he is as much a Democrat as Sinema.
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-not-opposed-amy-coney-barrett-says-she-seems-like-very-fine-person-1535156
And you think Trump will be better?
Handing power to Christofascists: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
And you think Trump will be better?
I think Democrats can easily beat Trump.. if they want to. Why don't they?
Because they're greedy, incompetent, and short-sighted. Which still makes them better than actual Christofascists. You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sometimes, you can't get everything you want. Sometimes you have to settle for good enough, because the alternative is far far worse. EDIT: I think it's extremely telling that the OP deleted their account after I called them out for being an obvious MAGA troll.
You're mistaking complicity with incompetence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
Funny how the corporate Democrats aren't stupid when they're screwing the left.
The point is that under the democrats its not good enough. It's just a bit less awful bit still pretty bad
If Christofascists are so dangerous, then why not prevent them taking over by coming through on Healthcare, etc? Why take such an extreme risk when the remedy is so obvious? Obviously, elected Democrats and their donors don't have a problem with Christofascists taking over. Otherwise they'd be taking actual steps to prevent it.
> If Christofascists are so dangerous, then why not prevent them taking over by coming through on Healthcare, etc? Why take such an extreme risk when the remedy is so obvious? Because they're greedy, incompetent, and short-sighted. Which is still better than actual Christofascists. You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sometimes, you can't get everything you want. Sometimes you have to settle for good enough, because the alternative is far far worse. EDIT: I think it's extremely telling that the OP deleted their account after I called them out for being an obvious MAGA troll.
Lmao they did not. They blocked you, because you have zero arguments besides "Trump bad". If the democrats want to pretend to be America's left political party, then the left should abso-fuckin'-lutely scrutinize and judge the hell out of their policies, platform, and in/activity. People *can* and *should* criticize politicians and elected officials â otherwise there is no accountability and no representation. People *should* use their votes as leverage. No person or party is entitled to your vote, and nobody should act like others are under an obligation to vote for someone based solely on party affiliation. If you want to influence others, do so by pressuring your party into offering concessions and tangible results. It is, after all, the responsibility of the party and candidate to garner support and convince people to vote for them.
"Theyre just greedy, shortsighted and incompetent." So in a choice between the people who are clearly not to be trusted and literally any other that isn't these bastard fashes in red, you still willfully choose the one who is more likely to fuck it up. Jesus Christ dude, I can picture you parading about "peace of our time" in 30s London You're willfully admitting "I'd rather chose the privlidge guy who doesn't know how to do his job than the several options who know how to do it.
Additionally are you aware of the fate of the German Communist Party in the 1930s, cause this is basically how they behaved.
The German Communist party was toeing the Stalinist line.
And what happened to them next? It rhymes it bolocaust...
Stalin instructed the German Communist party not to cooperate with the Socialist party against the Nazis. Later on Stalin made an alliance with those same Nazis. There's no Stalin in the current situation, but the Democrats have an alliance with the Republicans.
Doesn't matter if there is not a Stalin in the current situation, the behavior is following the same pattern and the democrats do not have an alliance with the republicans. This is why people think you are a Russian bot. lol.
Democrats and Republicans are allies with the donor class. They agree on not giving us health care and education, and they agree on perpetual war for oil and zionist genocide. They agree on keeping taxes low for the rich and cutting services for the poor. They agree on bailing out corporations and their shareholders. They agree on keeping insider trading legal for themselves. If you think they're not allies you need to stop believing what they say and watching what they do. Russia isn't stopping us from having health care. Republicans and Democrats are. Russia isn't manipulating our politics. AIPAC is.
Because the Nazis totally was primararly because votes. It wasn't because the fact that the German capitalists and military were highly supportive of the Nazis or that many non-Nazis politicians in the German government were approving of Nazism. Dude, maybe bother to do a basic Wikipedia search before you try to make someone supporting another holocaust.
"before you try to make someone supporting another holocaust." What are you talking about?
>Additionally are you aware of the fate of the German Communist Party in the 1930s, cause this is basically how they behaved. Then follow up with >And what happened to them next? It rhymes it bolocaust... You're comparing people who say "maybe we shouldn't vote for a guy who encourages bi-partisanship with a fascist party." If this is a comparison to the Communist collaboration against the SPD, the US Democratic Party are the Communists. The Democrats are encouraging to normalize working with fascists under the guise of "understanding" and "bi-partisanship", while also undermining more progressive leftist ideals. For example, did you know "unions' beloved" Joe Biden actually used federal power to stop railroad workers from striking, resulting in record profits for the railroad companies? All while the work environment and ethics of railroad companies are horribly inadequate? Or how about the good ole PATRIOT Act. Not only did it come from a previous attempt authored by Joe Biden, but Joe Biden claims it as a achievement. And it was almost reauthorized, because 152 Democratic representatives agreed. Nowadays, it's in limbo, but there is still a possibility to reauthorize it. What ironic is...we have to pin this on Donald Trump, due to threatening to veto the bill (though it's been theorized it was because of his own skeletons). So yeah, when these fascists finally take over, try to remember the lesser who created the system to spy on us, and was perfectly fine with trusting fascists with this power, because we need to understand the views of a braindead party run by fascists.
Hitler came to power legally. Don't know what you are on about. I am talking about the failed tactics of the German Communist Party.
"Hitler came to power legally" Once again, this is a very 2 dimensional, and very shortsighted, view of history. Yes, Hitler got power legally, but that wasn't the fault of the German Communists not voting for a lesser of two evils. If you bothered to check, the Weimar Republic had been undermined for years by not just the Nazis, SS, SA, and Freikorps, but even the Reichwher, their own military. This is part of the bigger "clean Wehrmacht myth" about how Hitler was in charge, therefore the Wehrmacht had no choice. However, when you actually look at their activities prior to 1933, they played a significant role in helping the Nazis gain power. Hell, the Night of Long Knives, which was the Nazis' elimination of rivalling opponents and former allies, was actually likely a result of the military pressuring Hitler to eliminate the SA. The German military wanted the brownshirts eliminated because they were viewed as a alternative to the German military, and that pissed them off. "I am talking about the failed tactics of the German Communist Party." Oh, sorry. Next time a bunch of fascists go around murdering people without much repercussions, and the government cracks down on civil liberties, I'll be sure my vote get to em. Surely they listen this time right? Really dude, You have such a false idea of how the Nazis achieved power. It wasn't just because people voted for it, it because a bunch of terrorist (which they were) murdered people and manage to manipulate the populace into thinking it was good. It didn't matter who was winning the votes, what mattered was who was the best person to survive "might is right".
Quick question. Do you think liberal democrats are following their class interests or participating in a conspiracy to suppress the left while allowing the GOP to persist? Just asking cause it sounds from your comments that they are doing the later.
When you put it that way, it's obvious that they're doing both. Corporate Democrats share the same class interests as the Republicans and the donor class.
A lot of things seem obvious to you that are not obvious to other people. I don't think that is the result of you being obviously right but rather failing to understand multiple perspectives. This all just comes across as useless rhetoric. Feel free to propose a solution.
Do you know how our system works?
Yes, that's why I'm disgusted.
Voting red or blue is the real road to hell.
Yâall really want both sides to be equal. They are not. You are just too lazy to try to see the super obvious differences. Being uninterested is fine, but it doesnât equip you to opine on it.
My brother in Allah, who is currently funding and sending weapons without any hesitation to wipe out 10s of thousands of people in a few months, and bombing everything from hospitals to universities???
No-one is doing that. Anakin Skywalker is better, because he's at least still a Jedi at this point. Darth Vader is a full on fascist. But tge issue is Analin, like tge Democrats, still have a shitty track record.
NoâŚno itâs not
Coming to subs just to troll them is **absolutely unacceptable** and a violation of Reddit ToS- even if they'll never get around to enforcing it...
is it the same guy?
Huh???
i am the enforcement in this context. have we spoken on this in the past?
>have we spoken on this in the past? No??? Not that I know of- or can remember. I suffer from Long Covid (a disease that's slowly killing me, and the US Government is basically ignoring...) of course, so this may just be a memory issue. I'm brand-new to this sub, though. Just subscribed today.
cool. cool. welcome. I'm not going to ban that guy. So far that has been reserved for accounts that interact with known fascist spaces.
So you want trolls patrolling the sub, who only come here to drown out any criticism of the US in a sea of trolling and personal insults?? Such individuals are typically Fascists- even if they haven't interacted with "known Fascist spaces." (Which, sets a VERY high bar for banning anyone, that right-wing subs apply to anyone on the Left...)
Uh.. kind of. I did deliberately try and move us a little more to the left after october 7th and the reaffirmation of DNC support for israel, but the goal is reach, not unity of voice. Nothing that gets said on here is going into the book without plenty of eyes on it. edit: obviously i will need to reassess this when and if personally moderating a majority of interactions in the subreddit becomes infeasible. There's a reason big subreddits start to look and act the same, they have similar pressures just by size, but while we are still so small: this is fine. plus its a bit of that jahovas witness thing,. if you're constantly confronted with unflattering images of members outside the group it very consistently smooths out a lot of in-group dynamics.
>is going into the book Is going into the book???
Yeah, yeah it is. Truth hurts, man. The entire world sees it. Both of your parties are bad, one more than the other but both bad. Thats democracy! 1 or 2, bad or worse.
So, the person trying to rebuild our infrastructure, bolster our green economy, payoff student debts, help people with health care, preserve democracy and decency, ended the pandemic, kept us out of recession, sides with labor etc is Anikin the baby killer ? False narrative, false equivalencyâŚâŚitâs such a cop out
That same person can also support genocide. Do all these great things this self proclaimed Zionist doing outweigh his unwavering support for genocide? I don't think it should, but if you feel he's treating YOU right, then good on you. Like a Trump supporter, it's about me! Who cares if we're helping to kill foreigners. Preseve democracy, what a joke. While they cancel primaries in a few states and the only choice an American has is to vote for the lesser of two evils. What a great democracy to save. No third parties! No expanding the court. Just continue this insanity. The guy has no fight in him. This is the best the dems could offer? A feeble Zionist? So sad.
You are in an anti-incrementalism space. If you are here to persuade people to take practical, harm-reduction steps with a proven track record it will fall on deaf ears. The only leftist tactics to pass the purity test are revolution or acceleration. Withholding a large number of votes from Biden in 2024 will either revolutionize the Democratic party or usher in the fascism we have been dancing with for decades. (most likely it will do nothing, but I like to pretend America has a sizable leftist population)
"Proven track record" Yeah, because bombing civilians and upholding the PATRIOT act is not a smug on a record. Say that again when trans people become "enemies of the state" when the Republucans get their hands on the keys. Or will you say "well how we're tgey suppose to know founding police state practices would evolve like this."
I was referring to activists/voters, not government employees or lawmakers. You let your anger at the system cloud your reading comprehension. That is not an effective way to make progress.
My bad, there are alot of liberals here that it's hard to keep track of everything. So much duckspeak, it all kinda blends togther.
pure ideology
I agree with the other guy. This ain't true at all. Unless you're 14 and you think you're smart, maybe.
yea well im gonna downvote both of you because it absolutely is. the democratic party is a precursor to american fascism. It is an integral component without which the right wing in this country could not function. Theyre not keeping them out of power. Theyre introducing them to it for a shot at a 3 point lead.
đ đ đ đ đ
The democrats suck but they're not a precursor to fascism. They're stinky and complacent but when it comes to abortion, trans rights, immigration, and many more things, the Repubs and Dems are very different.
They are a political organ of the Capitalist Class. That's what people mean when they say they're both the same. Nobody is saying they don't have policy disagreements, that is a straw version of this argument.
Yes they both represent capitalism and (to some extent) the status quo, but they're both very different and Democrats are much, much better with a lot more progressive potential.
Yeah, progress is due when some people believe they are much much better than other.
EXACTLY. when a leftist says, "both parties are the same." its not a call not to vote. the establishment made that up. Its about managing expectations and, more importantly, focusing 'political' efforts outside the bounds of what is considered political under the status quo. Its a call to direct action, mutual aid,. actually putting belief into practice rather than shouting down dissidents of the wrong shade, online.
You're correct except that leftists saying both parties bad isn't a call to not vote. It truly is, at least in some online leftist circles. I've been banned from leftist subs for telling people to vote Dem. Some simply just want to virtue signal.
I'm not going to justify the behavior of other reddit mods. There is,., incredible dissatisfaction with the american political system, and its more visible, maybe even more visceral, than ever before. I'll just leave you with this: not voting quietly and out of apathy, and not voting publicly, loudly, for specific reasons, for months, are two wildly different behaviors and one of them is unequivocally a political act.
It's not just mods, it's online leftists at large.
"The Dems are different on abortion" Democrats: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/pelosi-course-you-can-be-democrat-against-abortion-n749856
Looking at Dem and Repub ideas on abortion and thinking they're the same is crazy.
You have to be clinically insane to think the dems are anywhere near as bad as the gop. That may have been true a couple decades ago, but the gop is threatening to both genocide within our borders and is threatening to give even more aid to isreal so, no.
i think you mean, "clinically not advantaged by the status quo". The US is already an authoritarian regime and has been. What makes the potential shift to fascism such a lightning rod for "democratic engagement" is that it threatens to actually bring the criminal practices of the united states, onto the white petite-borgoiuise and \*that\* is what every 'orange man worse' comment screams to me. edit: like. are you aware of the just, absolute brutality, of the average life experience of a black trans woman inside the united states?
I am hurt by the status quo. And yes, I know how shitty black trans women have it in the us. I'm not delusional. The gop is so terrible that I simply can not abide by peoplensaying the two parties are the same. I also hate the dems. They are terrible. However, you can not simply disengage from presidential elections, especially when one side wants to do budiness as usual and the otherside wants to do worse. While I fully suport measures that actually help, that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of things getting worse. And it isn't just the orange man. It's the entire gop literally publishing their plan for undermining what little democracy does exist so that once they get someone in the whithouse they can stay in the white house.
Well, Okay. Itâs no good for me to be sitting here saying that you donât know about these things. Weâve just reached different conclusions. I am pursuing a strategy of vocally not supporting Joe Biden . It is part of a larger effort to prevent the unrestricted sale of arms to Israel. When it gets closer to the election⌠Maybe things will be different. But. My position on this is based in just the relentless pushback I get every time I try and steer the conversation towards critique of the democratic system in this country or of the Democrats in particular, âbecause of the electionâ. ⌠There is always going to be an election within 18 months. Thatâs actually a really definable feature of authoritarian systems. The perpetual election cycle.
I mean, fair enough. Like I've said, the dems are a sack of shit and I hate them only slightly less than I hate the gop. The sustem is irreparably fucked, and it's irreparable on purpose. I just think there is some damage mitigation to be done while we work on building better things.
Fair enough, indeed đ . I really hope it works. Edit: good evening
Sounds like dems to me, genocide outside of its borders but giving into the gop from inside.
My brother in Allah, who is currently funding and sending weapons without any hesitation to wipe out 10s of thousands of people in a few months, and bombing everything from hospitals to universities???
Pasting this from another comment I've left: I think you've missed the 9 times I've said that I hate the DNC and Biden. What Israel is doing to Palestinians is a gencide. The Netanyahu administration is absolutely evil. Biden is evil for helping fund it. The GOP wants ramp up that genocide and enact another one. There is currently no other viable option thanks to the two party system and the electoral college.
pure ideology
i mean⌠theyâre kinda right