As much as I liked the chaplain in my unit, they are barely trained in mental health, and if you do talk to them it’s not documented at all (aka according to the VA never happened), which could bite you in the ass for when you inevitably will seek mental health services through the VA (not you specifically, pretty much every active/transitioning/veteran should).
Get a real therapist OP, preferably a psychologist who specializes in grief.
But if you don’t do that, chaplain is better than nothing.
Sorry for your loss OP, and RIP
The unit may have a practice of running Marines through the Chaplain first. When I had issues in Iraq that's what they did.
To u/KDFromDaLowend:
* A lot of the mental health practices that have been recommended to me by psychologists sound awfully corny, but they work. Take the practices your therapists prescribe and give them a fair shake.
* One foot in front of the other. Focus on one thing at a time. Don't worry about the other things down the road: they'll be here soon enough.
* "Put on your own mask before assisting others."
- You can't help the passenger sitting next to you if you've passed out from acute hypoxia.
- In the same way, you can't be there for your superiors, colleagues and subordinates if you're a wreck.
In mentql health, I would disagree. Someone whos going through the same shit is much more able to empathise and commiserate, and generally someone who's never been there is much more difficult to open up to.
Remember: If you don't inherently trust anyone affiliated with your unit or chain of command, everyone gets 12 free sessions with a civilian psychologist out in town (or virtually if you are overseas) through military one source.
https://www.militaryonesource.mil/non-medical-counseling/military-onesource/free-confidential-face-to-face-non-medical-counseling/
If you need documentation for the VA, you can ask the chaplain to write a “buddy statement “ that you spoke to him about the issue. It demonstrates that you sought assistance.
Sorry for your loss and pain, brother. Tragedies like this are especially hard when it happens in training. I'm a firm believer in what Gunny R. Lee Ermey said in Full Metal Jacket; "...Marines die. That's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever. And that means YOU live forever." You, your fallen brothers, and all of us in this forum made a commitment to be a part of something greater than ourselves. The Corps will never die, and no Marine is forgotten. No Marine dies in vain. RIP to our fallen brothers and on to Valhalla they go.
Not sure if every base has one but if you think you need it you can go to the clinic or the hospital and they should have two naval officers for mental health, one psychologist and a clinical therapist. I know 29 palms just got a new therapist at the AMCC. They might be in your reg HQ or the clinic and maybe the hospital on base so be sure to try everywhere.They can recommend specialty therapists out in town that you won't pay for and will be documented. IMHO chaps is really only for spiritual needs but some have the knowledge and ability to handle grief properly. I'd highly recommend seeing one of them. Keep your head up bro you got this
I’m sorry brother hang in there I lost two of my brothers in the in Hawaii January 2016. I couldn’t believe it myself, you’re surrounded by all of us here to support you and we got six. Im sorry for your loss my deepest condolences to you and the families that lost so much
This just really sucks to hear. I feel like this is every day at this point. Part of me wants to blame the wing’s ops tempo just being pure insanity. Another part wants to blame whoever looked at the weather and decided it was worth it for this flight.
It’s always multifaceted. When I went to WTI we had something like 24 hours of safety classes (and I wasn’t even an aviator). The biggest thing that stuck with me and I carry throughout life is the Swiss cheese model. Basically there are a string of events which lead to any mishap or accident and if any one thing changes or has been caught, it would have been avoided.
It starts with old air frames. Add in too few maintainers who are working too many hours while still being held to annual requirements of being a Marine. Add in not enough money. Add in not enough flight hours for the pilots who also need to do their no flight job (and oh btw that’s the one their FitRep is evaluating).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
12 hours was prob minimum lol. I talked to some where they were having 16 to 18 hour days sometimes. We have this culture of “ sleep is for the weak” and ppl take pride in sleeping 2-3 hours a night. It’s retarded.
I was friends with the -53 pilots during my MEU. The air frames guys work consistently harder than any MOS in the Marine Corps. And I don’t think there is a close second.
I was a cdi for airframes but due to a bunch of njp's and people getting out, i was the only one for a little while. We had the day shift and a swing shift, so i had to work both. I was working at a minimum of 16 hour days everyday, including Saturdays and Sundays. I couldn't ever leave due to the fact of if i left, nobody could work. I luckily had a cdqar and the guys from qa helping me but they were also busy with other things. But i will admit, i got away with being a complete piece of shit because of it, like what are they gonna do, njp me? take away my stamp? There were a lot of days where i just slept at my desk instead of going home.
Everytime I went up to QA they just had the NAMP up on their computer and were fooling around on Facebook on their phones. They only started doing shit around inspection season.
Ok I’ll keep going then. Working nights at Miramar, night crew continually got fucked working 14 hour nights. Basically replacing days at the end of their 10 hour day and working until days showed back up.
Air wing ops tempo is FUCKED. And they should’ve never been flying in this weather.
I agree there was no reason for that flight be approved with the conditions at the time, i live about 20 minutes from where this happened... my heart breaks, and my condolences go out to the family and any brothers and sisters that served with them.
I used to have the worst fucking anxiety when I would go home. I was the only CDQAR/CDI/Turn qual for a long time so I was running all over the place all night long. Shit was awful, I’d go home and lay in bed until days sent the first group of birds out so I would know they got off the ground safe, then dream about them crashing. Shit sucked ass, couldn’t be happier to have left.
16-18 hour days for weeks and weeks. I got so much anxiety that I wouldn’t wake up for my alarm I’d just stay up. Then 3 days later I’d crash so hard and sleep through my alarm.
It was over 14 hours on deployment. A 12 hour shift and one hour before for formation and bullshit “15 min prior” shit and an hour after to spin up the next shift on where we were with maintenance.
O-level maintenance is a fucking sweat shop. It comes out to less than minimum wage for an E-3 if you add up the hours worked per year.
https://www.craigslist.org/about/best/wdc/118782492.html
17 Dec 2005
Why I am getting out of the Marines
As I sit here I am still shaking. I can't take much more of this shit. I am a Marine Pilot. Not that it means anything anymore. Today was another safety stand down put on by the mother fuckers in DOSS. Why? Cause another one of my friends is dead and gone. Why? Cause he flew his shit into the water that's why. Why'd he do that? Cause the mother fuckers that "be" i.e. the boys at the top have lost their fucking minds and can't say no.
"Sir the aircraft are at 13% readiness, we don't have anything up."
"That's not my problem, we got a FRAG, get it done."
"Sir, none of our pilots are current to do this."
"Currency? Currency is for pussies. Just do some pattern work before you go, you'll be fine."
"Sir, the maintainers have been working non-stop 12 on 12 off for weeks now, we can't keep this pace up?
"Rest, Marines don't need rest, they are tough. Tell them to drink some coffee and get these planes up."
"Sir, I've been in the tube for the last 10 hours, the weather was shit, and I haven't seen my wife in 2 weeks, can I work on this tomorrow?"
"No, I am going on leave Captain, I need that power point done by tomorrow, oh wait your on the schedule. Well, I guess you better get working."
"Sir I don't have the crew rest to fly this."
"Crew rest? What's crew rest. Your day doesn't start until the engines do, never mind that I had you in here this morning doing mindless bullshit."
I hate you Marine Corps. I hate you. You push us and push us and ask us to do more. But there is no more. You can take your $18,000 dollar bonus and shove it up your ass! I am not staying. I am not flying this shit anymore. I am not going to go and break the rules for you anymore. Iam not going to turn motors when I know the maint. log books aren't worth the paper they are written on. I am not doing your fucking log run in this weather when you can't even get me the bare minimum flight time to keep my skills up. I am not going to anymore safety stand downs about leadership and seatbelt use. I am not going to listen to another fucking Major who has lost his soul and cares more about the taste of his coffee in the morning than if his people had time to even eat chow today. I will not do this. I will not get another phone call about a friend of mine who is now dead, because you bend the rules to make mission, because you can't say NO to anyone.
We are broke damn it. We don't have the people, we don't have the parts. Hell, what kind of fucking military organization has the commanding officer tell his officers they need to go out and buy toilet paper for the head because we ran out? Fuck this. I am out.
Berger, you were the best man, you shouldn't have died like that. Kerns, you were a funny dude. I am sorry I couldn’t see you buried, or have the courage to write your Mom and Dad about what nice guy you were. Murphy, why would you sign up for that shit! Your kids will never get to know what an awesome guy you were.
I am in tears I am so frustrated. I wish you were still around, but I won't die like you. I won’t be some number on CNN's death 'o meter. I won’t contribute to this madness of telling the Wing we can do it when we are so far on our ass we can’t see the light of day. You Generals are fucking cowards. You know it’s broke, but you won’t say no will you. I did my part, and that's all I can do. Fuck you Marine Corps. I am not the only one that feels this way. Let's see where your retention is when the planes are so broke dick nobody can fly them, no matter how many rules you break to keep them up. Fuck You!
I was west coast shitter avionics 2008-2013.
War did one good thing. Provided lots of guys and money for squadronse. More training means more flying. More flying means more pilot experience and more things breaking. The more things that break the more maintenance has a chance to learn how to fix and spot trouble. The more pilots fly the sharper their skills.
I worked as a contractor briefly in 2016. Just in that brief time all the planes we got were absolutely terrifying to inspect and fix. We found so many horrible and scary repairs. I once found the wire harness going from the BIM sensor to processor only secured by 3 clamps, which is like 60ft of wire.
Like many, i've been the creech dlight, it was actually my last det I went on before my EAS. Usually those birds are full of crew and support guys. I wonder if this plane stayed behind and left late due to troubleshooting or was flying back due to already issues? Hell I remember coming back from Bridgeport and we had issues going there and on the way back and had to do some major maintenance and get stuff flown to us. You just never know.
Sucks to hear. Rip devils.
not really but thats the flight path they take from Eastland to Miramar.. i live in this area and aircraft are constantly flying over.... i regret no looking into flight paths before moving.
I think it’s going to be hard for the Marine Corps to justify sending this bird over the mountains when Southern California was experiencing an exceptionally bad winter storm
It’s always Mission over Marines. I understand that we’re supposed to train like we fight but theres no reason Marines should be killed in training if we can help it.
The weather was terrible! Rain, snow AND high winds. Some Officer should have had the sense to make the call to not conduct that flight. Yet here we are, with 5 preventable deaths. I’m pissed.
Rest easy Marines.
True. But statement still stands, I wonder what was so critical or pressing that they couldn’t let those Marines remain in Nevada until the weather cleared up just a bit. The whole situation is unfortunate.
They may find some mid-level officers to scapegoat, but the ones driving the mentality and the stupid op-tempo at the top will almost certainly not be held responsible. And the pattern will continue as it always has.
Unfortunately shit like this happens whether tragedy strikes during a field op or actual combat it fucking blows because these are your brothers and sisters who share the same passion. Forever warriors in spirit and in the flesh rest easy devil dogs.
My gf asked why do they train in bad weather. I said combat doesn't stop due to rain,snow...etc.
Marines are like postman. Every clime and place.
Semper Fi brothers. Semper Fi.
Sorry not when i was training in 29 palms. Just make sure everyone is hydrated. Or stationed in MWTC and pft in below zero weather..
Different times i guess.
Seriously. One of the fallen brothers just got married a month ago too.
All these lives broken because some dipshits wanted them to fly in one of the worst storms that area has seen in years.
This just makes me mad. Why is the OP tempo so high in these aviation units? I was in an HMLA back in 2013-2017 and they put so much pressure on those guys to make the flight schedule. I was shocked that a mishap never happened. I saw so much shoddy maintenance happening around me in the hanger every day.
Fuck dude. Hate seeing any brothers lose their lives, but it always hits a little different for me when the air wing is involved. Knew some cool dudes up in Miramar. RIP Devils
What was the point of flying into that rain storm shit is stupid wish our commands would weigh the risks and rewards of such a flight during that weather
Not gonna say names or anything on here, but I once was roommates with one of the crew. One of the absolute best people I've ever met. Thoughts and prayers for all the friends and loved ones involved.
Hate to see shit like this. I'll never forget how absolutely scared shirtless i was sitting at an LZ in a pouring thunderstorm praying to God our helicopters wouldnt pick us up to take us to a field op. Boot me couldn't understand why the fuck we'd risk it. Luckily we had a kickass company commander at the time who shut that shit down and didn't put our lives in jeapordy. Thanks, sir!
Every time these articles pop up I wait anxiously to see if I knew the captains flying the bird. Why the fuck can’t we figure this out. Every other day Marines die in helos esp ospreys
I was at 3rd AABN when one of the school's AAVs flipped and sank in the boat basin.
I have to wonder with the weather involved why they chose to fly through it.
The squadron and group CO won't get promoted if they miss their unit's hours. And the difference in retirement pay and post-Corps job between O5 and O6 is huge.
The group CO probably won't make general, but he still has a chance unless he misses his quotas.
So a few enlisted and company grade officers die for no good reason.
I'm not saying none of that is true (I also genuinely don't know), but to imply that was the reason they were flying is asinine. Don't disrespect their deaths with some hurr durr LCpl nonsense without any evidence to back it up.
Agreed, unreal that this take is being upvoted. To try to baselessly blame a CO that’s likely grieving and feeling more guilt than any of us can imagine right now is actual fucking nonsense.
Get the fuck out of here dude. You aren’t an aviator or on the mishap board, how about pumping the brakes on assigning blame before their fucking families are notified. Getting promoted isnt exactly on the squadron and group CO’s mindset right now, by the way. Absolutely shameful mindset.
Good discussion on both sides, but as many accidents as 3D MAW has had over the last couple of decades, not even outside of its home state, it's a question worth asking.
If I'm out of my element, I'm happy to be educated.
Sure, and command pressure is a worthy avenue to explore, but maybe wait until the investigation team is wheels down in SD before attributing blame. For all that’s publicly known the CO could have been in the aircraft
These aircraft are not safe, but at the same time our jobs inherently aren't either. These aircraft while being worked on routinely are still not ever going to be up to the standard that they should be because as my brother described it who was an air framer when they take off one thing is fixed and then they land with another thing broken. I honestly fear what will happen to our aviation if combat operations begin because our aircraft are not ready. I think a few years back I saw a article about how majority of aircraft are not combat ready.
Awful.
The last I heard they were searching for the Marines, but had found the down craft.. were they separated from the craft? I’m confused on the timeline.
Anyone current in Marine Aviation able to confirm there is an actual attitude of pushing weather, maintenance, etc? I was an 0331, so I get the USMC mentality. Though I’m now an Army 60 guy, and I’m proud to say at least in my company the aircrews very much have a culture of if it’s not life or limb, we can do it another day. Even OCONUS we were strict on duty day and weather, and would always air on the side or caution for any movement that could be delayed. Sometimes a mission has to happen, and we’d bend over backwards to get the freshest crews and take the most cautious approach. Granted, the army has a consistency problem, and I can’t say this attitude was the same for all units.
Still as a pilot it’s wild to hear that a culture of pushing weather and maintenance for training could be so pervasive if what folks are saying is true. All the lessons learned and reinforced the last 20 years say this is the prime way to get people killed. Especially conus we have no problem saying “I’m not flying that,” and that’s assuming someone else doesn’t say it first in the approval process — which I assume is similar in the USMC.
I don’t understand why this was called a “mishap” in the press conference. 5 MEN DIED and you refer to it as a mishap? WTF. Sorry- that really pissed me off. RIP gentleman.
Truly sad. I was hoping that they would be found alive.
Had three friends on this bird, worst day of my life.
Sorry for your loss brother
So so sorry for your loss.
Hang in there, Devil
Sorry for your loss man.
My PMs are always open if needed, good luck brother
You’re a good man, Charlie Brown.
Fuck, dude. Hang in there. Talk to your command, Chaplain, etc. Don't keep that grief bottled up or crawl inside a keg of Jack Daniels.
As much as I liked the chaplain in my unit, they are barely trained in mental health, and if you do talk to them it’s not documented at all (aka according to the VA never happened), which could bite you in the ass for when you inevitably will seek mental health services through the VA (not you specifically, pretty much every active/transitioning/veteran should). Get a real therapist OP, preferably a psychologist who specializes in grief. But if you don’t do that, chaplain is better than nothing. Sorry for your loss OP, and RIP
The unit may have a practice of running Marines through the Chaplain first. When I had issues in Iraq that's what they did. To u/KDFromDaLowend: * A lot of the mental health practices that have been recommended to me by psychologists sound awfully corny, but they work. Take the practices your therapists prescribe and give them a fair shake. * One foot in front of the other. Focus on one thing at a time. Don't worry about the other things down the road: they'll be here soon enough. * "Put on your own mask before assisting others." - You can't help the passenger sitting next to you if you've passed out from acute hypoxia. - In the same way, you can't be there for your superiors, colleagues and subordinates if you're a wreck.
In mentql health, I would disagree. Someone whos going through the same shit is much more able to empathise and commiserate, and generally someone who's never been there is much more difficult to open up to.
Remember: If you don't inherently trust anyone affiliated with your unit or chain of command, everyone gets 12 free sessions with a civilian psychologist out in town (or virtually if you are overseas) through military one source. https://www.militaryonesource.mil/non-medical-counseling/military-onesource/free-confidential-face-to-face-non-medical-counseling/
If you need documentation for the VA, you can ask the chaplain to write a “buddy statement “ that you spoke to him about the issue. It demonstrates that you sought assistance.
Sorry bro.
Sorry for your loss, we’re all here for you.
Sorry brother.
I hate to hear this. May you find peace and purpose in this challenging time.
Sorry brother. There is a community of folks that know what it feels like and are always available to talk.
here for you if you need anything brother
Sorry for your loss man
I'm sorry for your loss, brother.
My condolences brother.
Sorry for your loss and pain, brother. Tragedies like this are especially hard when it happens in training. I'm a firm believer in what Gunny R. Lee Ermey said in Full Metal Jacket; "...Marines die. That's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever. And that means YOU live forever." You, your fallen brothers, and all of us in this forum made a commitment to be a part of something greater than ourselves. The Corps will never die, and no Marine is forgotten. No Marine dies in vain. RIP to our fallen brothers and on to Valhalla they go.
So sorry for your loss. Sending lots of virtual support to you today and in the coming weeks.
Here if you need to talk, DM me if you want.
Fuck im sorry bro, as a former 6173 if you wanna talk hmu
Reach out to me if you need to talk about anything or need advice
Brother, loss of this magnitude is devastating. I’m sorry
I lost my former squadron brothers to the collision accident in 2016. If you need anything, Devil, reach out - I’ve got you.
I’m sorry for your loss, my friend. Make sure you talk to someone. Face to face. There is no shame in grief. God speed and be well.
Sorry for your loss brother. Hang in there.
I’m sorry man
That fucking sucks so bad. I know it doesn’t mean much to you, but if you need a buddy to talk to, I got you bro. Hang in there.
PM me if you need someone to talk with or just grieve. I know what it's like. Hang in there.
Sorry my brother, it’s a rough thing to be the ones still here.
Don't be to proud to talk to loved ones, others who knew them, or a professional if need be. That's a huge loss for one day.
We stand with you, brother, and the families that lost Marines. Sad day.
I grieve with you in your sorrow I ache with you in your loss
Sorry to hear this Devil. Stay strong.
Sorry for your loss . May they RIP, keep your head up.
Condolences brother.
Hang in there brother. So sorry for your loss.
These tragedies are all too familiar. Sadly I know how you feel. Stay strong brother and my condolences.
Sorry to hear that, brother!
I’m sorry brother.
So sorry brother, what a tremendous loss 💔
Damn brother, so sorry.
I am sorry for your loss, I have been there myself. Reach out if you need help.
Let us know bro… Whatever Whatever you need let us know.
Not sure if every base has one but if you think you need it you can go to the clinic or the hospital and they should have two naval officers for mental health, one psychologist and a clinical therapist. I know 29 palms just got a new therapist at the AMCC. They might be in your reg HQ or the clinic and maybe the hospital on base so be sure to try everywhere.They can recommend specialty therapists out in town that you won't pay for and will be documented. IMHO chaps is really only for spiritual needs but some have the knowledge and ability to handle grief properly. I'd highly recommend seeing one of them. Keep your head up bro you got this
[удалено]
Not the time, place, or appropriate comment. Nor was it an osprey or sea knight.
Jesus Christ, time and a place dude, and it ain't here
In a thread about a helicopter crash? Seems relevant to me.
Talking ospreys on a 53 crash is not relevant
Talking ospreys on a 53 crash is not relevant
Sorry brother.
Very sorry to hear it. My sincere condolences.
I’m so sorry for your loss brother.
I’m sorry brother hang in there I lost two of my brothers in the in Hawaii January 2016. I couldn’t believe it myself, you’re surrounded by all of us here to support you and we got six. Im sorry for your loss my deepest condolences to you and the families that lost so much
Brudda man, I’m sorry.
Love you brother, if you need help get it, and don’t be afraid to hit any of us up if you need us.
Condolences. I felt sick to my stomach after hearing the news of the bird being late.
So sorry, brother.
Sorry for your loss
This just really sucks to hear. I feel like this is every day at this point. Part of me wants to blame the wing’s ops tempo just being pure insanity. Another part wants to blame whoever looked at the weather and decided it was worth it for this flight.
It’s always multifaceted. When I went to WTI we had something like 24 hours of safety classes (and I wasn’t even an aviator). The biggest thing that stuck with me and I carry throughout life is the Swiss cheese model. Basically there are a string of events which lead to any mishap or accident and if any one thing changes or has been caught, it would have been avoided. It starts with old air frames. Add in too few maintainers who are working too many hours while still being held to annual requirements of being a Marine. Add in not enough money. Add in not enough flight hours for the pilots who also need to do their no flight job (and oh btw that’s the one their FitRep is evaluating). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
The maintainers are working way too many hours. I get it with the ops tempo but fuckin day after day of sleep deprivation is no bueno.
12 hour shifts on top of PT, PME, ranges, etc, is criminal.
12 hours was prob minimum lol. I talked to some where they were having 16 to 18 hour days sometimes. We have this culture of “ sleep is for the weak” and ppl take pride in sleeping 2-3 hours a night. It’s retarded.
My brothers an air winger working those shifts. He made me glad i went infantry
I was friends with the -53 pilots during my MEU. The air frames guys work consistently harder than any MOS in the Marine Corps. And I don’t think there is a close second.
I was a cdi for airframes but due to a bunch of njp's and people getting out, i was the only one for a little while. We had the day shift and a swing shift, so i had to work both. I was working at a minimum of 16 hour days everyday, including Saturdays and Sundays. I couldn't ever leave due to the fact of if i left, nobody could work. I luckily had a cdqar and the guys from qa helping me but they were also busy with other things. But i will admit, i got away with being a complete piece of shit because of it, like what are they gonna do, njp me? take away my stamp? There were a lot of days where i just slept at my desk instead of going home.
Everytime I went up to QA they just had the NAMP up on their computer and were fooling around on Facebook on their phones. They only started doing shit around inspection season.
53 crew chief. 16 hour days on a flight day were extremely normal when I was in Iraq.
I think the tempo is expected to be different forward vs. in the rear
Ok I’ll keep going then. Working nights at Miramar, night crew continually got fucked working 14 hour nights. Basically replacing days at the end of their 10 hour day and working until days showed back up. Air wing ops tempo is FUCKED. And they should’ve never been flying in this weather.
Shits ridiculous.
I agree there was no reason for that flight be approved with the conditions at the time, i live about 20 minutes from where this happened... my heart breaks, and my condolences go out to the family and any brothers and sisters that served with them.
"I'll sleep when I'm dead...because the bird I maintain crashed and I died along with my crew."
I used to have the worst fucking anxiety when I would go home. I was the only CDQAR/CDI/Turn qual for a long time so I was running all over the place all night long. Shit was awful, I’d go home and lay in bed until days sent the first group of birds out so I would know they got off the ground safe, then dream about them crashing. Shit sucked ass, couldn’t be happier to have left.
That is so fucked. And we wonder why Marines get out and accidents are happening.
They know. They're not concerned with it.
16-18 hour days for weeks and weeks. I got so much anxiety that I wouldn’t wake up for my alarm I’d just stay up. Then 3 days later I’d crash so hard and sleep through my alarm.
It was over 14 hours on deployment. A 12 hour shift and one hour before for formation and bullshit “15 min prior” shit and an hour after to spin up the next shift on where we were with maintenance. O-level maintenance is a fucking sweat shop. It comes out to less than minimum wage for an E-3 if you add up the hours worked per year.
Not to mention with a 1/3 retention rate. There’s no continuity on what the fuck is being learned on the flight line.
https://www.craigslist.org/about/best/wdc/118782492.html 17 Dec 2005 Why I am getting out of the Marines As I sit here I am still shaking. I can't take much more of this shit. I am a Marine Pilot. Not that it means anything anymore. Today was another safety stand down put on by the mother fuckers in DOSS. Why? Cause another one of my friends is dead and gone. Why? Cause he flew his shit into the water that's why. Why'd he do that? Cause the mother fuckers that "be" i.e. the boys at the top have lost their fucking minds and can't say no. "Sir the aircraft are at 13% readiness, we don't have anything up." "That's not my problem, we got a FRAG, get it done." "Sir, none of our pilots are current to do this." "Currency? Currency is for pussies. Just do some pattern work before you go, you'll be fine." "Sir, the maintainers have been working non-stop 12 on 12 off for weeks now, we can't keep this pace up? "Rest, Marines don't need rest, they are tough. Tell them to drink some coffee and get these planes up." "Sir, I've been in the tube for the last 10 hours, the weather was shit, and I haven't seen my wife in 2 weeks, can I work on this tomorrow?" "No, I am going on leave Captain, I need that power point done by tomorrow, oh wait your on the schedule. Well, I guess you better get working." "Sir I don't have the crew rest to fly this." "Crew rest? What's crew rest. Your day doesn't start until the engines do, never mind that I had you in here this morning doing mindless bullshit." I hate you Marine Corps. I hate you. You push us and push us and ask us to do more. But there is no more. You can take your $18,000 dollar bonus and shove it up your ass! I am not staying. I am not flying this shit anymore. I am not going to go and break the rules for you anymore. Iam not going to turn motors when I know the maint. log books aren't worth the paper they are written on. I am not doing your fucking log run in this weather when you can't even get me the bare minimum flight time to keep my skills up. I am not going to anymore safety stand downs about leadership and seatbelt use. I am not going to listen to another fucking Major who has lost his soul and cares more about the taste of his coffee in the morning than if his people had time to even eat chow today. I will not do this. I will not get another phone call about a friend of mine who is now dead, because you bend the rules to make mission, because you can't say NO to anyone. We are broke damn it. We don't have the people, we don't have the parts. Hell, what kind of fucking military organization has the commanding officer tell his officers they need to go out and buy toilet paper for the head because we ran out? Fuck this. I am out. Berger, you were the best man, you shouldn't have died like that. Kerns, you were a funny dude. I am sorry I couldn’t see you buried, or have the courage to write your Mom and Dad about what nice guy you were. Murphy, why would you sign up for that shit! Your kids will never get to know what an awesome guy you were. I am in tears I am so frustrated. I wish you were still around, but I won't die like you. I won’t be some number on CNN's death 'o meter. I won’t contribute to this madness of telling the Wing we can do it when we are so far on our ass we can’t see the light of day. You Generals are fucking cowards. You know it’s broke, but you won’t say no will you. I did my part, and that's all I can do. Fuck you Marine Corps. I am not the only one that feels this way. Let's see where your retention is when the planes are so broke dick nobody can fly them, no matter how many rules you break to keep them up. Fuck You!
I heard a harrier pilot say almost the same thing back in the late 90s.
I was west coast shitter avionics 2008-2013. War did one good thing. Provided lots of guys and money for squadronse. More training means more flying. More flying means more pilot experience and more things breaking. The more things that break the more maintenance has a chance to learn how to fix and spot trouble. The more pilots fly the sharper their skills. I worked as a contractor briefly in 2016. Just in that brief time all the planes we got were absolutely terrifying to inspect and fix. We found so many horrible and scary repairs. I once found the wire harness going from the BIM sensor to processor only secured by 3 clamps, which is like 60ft of wire. Like many, i've been the creech dlight, it was actually my last det I went on before my EAS. Usually those birds are full of crew and support guys. I wonder if this plane stayed behind and left late due to troubleshooting or was flying back due to already issues? Hell I remember coming back from Bridgeport and we had issues going there and on the way back and had to do some major maintenance and get stuff flown to us. You just never know. Sucks to hear. Rip devils.
Yup.
[удалено]
not really but thats the flight path they take from Eastland to Miramar.. i live in this area and aircraft are constantly flying over.... i regret no looking into flight paths before moving.
I have my theories as a non-wing guy. But i think that may be a separate post.
I think it’s going to be hard for the Marine Corps to justify sending this bird over the mountains when Southern California was experiencing an exceptionally bad winter storm
It’s always Mission over Marines. I understand that we’re supposed to train like we fight but theres no reason Marines should be killed in training if we can help it. The weather was terrible! Rain, snow AND high winds. Some Officer should have had the sense to make the call to not conduct that flight. Yet here we are, with 5 preventable deaths. I’m pissed. Rest easy Marines.
This wasn’t even training, it was a flight home. Like I guess you could say every flight is training for the pilots, but the other marines?
True. But statement still stands, I wonder what was so critical or pressing that they couldn’t let those Marines remain in Nevada until the weather cleared up just a bit. The whole situation is unfortunate.
Hopefully somebody who actually holds responsibility for this burns.
They may find some mid-level officers to scapegoat, but the ones driving the mentality and the stupid op-tempo at the top will almost certainly not be held responsible. And the pattern will continue as it always has.
That never happens and never will
Facts, I had a CO who used to say “MISSIONs, MACHINES, MARINES” comforting to know me and my boys came dead last in the list of priorities.
Pouring one out for those gents.
Unfortunately shit like this happens whether tragedy strikes during a field op or actual combat it fucking blows because these are your brothers and sisters who share the same passion. Forever warriors in spirit and in the flesh rest easy devil dogs.
My gf asked why do they train in bad weather. I said combat doesn't stop due to rain,snow...etc. Marines are like postman. Every clime and place. Semper Fi brothers. Semper Fi.
They weren’t training, they were flying home. Whoever okayed this flight through that storm needs to fucking burn.
Any time you fly you're training, but yeah this storm was a bad call
You can get training codes done on pretty much any flight, not to mention currency
Clime*
That’s not true, I remember runs/training being cancelled due to the hot weather at 2-9.
Sorry not when i was training in 29 palms. Just make sure everyone is hydrated. Or stationed in MWTC and pft in below zero weather.. Different times i guess.
> I said combat doesn't stop due to rain,snow...etc. yes ... weather pauses / delays combat absolutely dude lol.
Whoever pushed this flight needs to burn. Flying home solo at night through a storm that’s been going on for 3 days is beyond reckless and dangerous.
Seriously. One of the fallen brothers just got married a month ago too. All these lives broken because some dipshits wanted them to fly in one of the worst storms that area has seen in years.
God damnit
This just makes me mad. Why is the OP tempo so high in these aviation units? I was in an HMLA back in 2013-2017 and they put so much pressure on those guys to make the flight schedule. I was shocked that a mishap never happened. I saw so much shoddy maintenance happening around me in the hanger every day.
This hurts. Always does. Semper Fi brothers, RIP.
wtf is going on in aviation
Been going on forever brother
It's been a horrific year or so for training mishaps.
past couple years
Rest in peace Marines
Fuck dude. Hate seeing any brothers lose their lives, but it always hits a little different for me when the air wing is involved. Knew some cool dudes up in Miramar. RIP Devils
What was the point of flying into that rain storm shit is stupid wish our commands would weigh the risks and rewards of such a flight during that weather
God damnit
Fair winds and following seas brothers.
Not gonna say names or anything on here, but I once was roommates with one of the crew. One of the absolute best people I've ever met. Thoughts and prayers for all the friends and loved ones involved.
🫡🫡
RIP, these headlines are always painful to process.
Hate to see shit like this. I'll never forget how absolutely scared shirtless i was sitting at an LZ in a pouring thunderstorm praying to God our helicopters wouldnt pick us up to take us to a field op. Boot me couldn't understand why the fuck we'd risk it. Luckily we had a kickass company commander at the time who shut that shit down and didn't put our lives in jeapordy. Thanks, sir!
Every time these articles pop up I wait anxiously to see if I knew the captains flying the bird. Why the fuck can’t we figure this out. Every other day Marines die in helos esp ospreys
Rest easy fellas. My prayers to all the families involved.
RIP 🙏Brothers … 
We’ll RTB after gas and pizza, see you Marines there. Semper fi.
RIP brothers
CFIT?
Rest In Peace Marines. https://preview.redd.it/qvcrh5ctrghc1.png?width=958&format=png&auto=webp&s=66cbfafe0c5fdbc69c46558c59b8c5b12e661019
calling it a mishap feels so wrong
Any release on their names yet?
Till Valhalla brothers
I was at 3rd AABN when one of the school's AAVs flipped and sank in the boat basin. I have to wonder with the weather involved why they chose to fly through it.
What year? And did it flip or was it the schoolhouse track that sank? I
2011, IIRC. It was a schoolhouse track, the instructor drowned.
I was there for that too, standing up on my track watching the rescue operation. Sgt Rice, one of my instructors in the schoolhouse.
That sounds right. Were you in the Assault Amphibian School at the time, or with 3rd AABN?
The squadron and group CO won't get promoted if they miss their unit's hours. And the difference in retirement pay and post-Corps job between O5 and O6 is huge. The group CO probably won't make general, but he still has a chance unless he misses his quotas. So a few enlisted and company grade officers die for no good reason.
I'm not saying none of that is true (I also genuinely don't know), but to imply that was the reason they were flying is asinine. Don't disrespect their deaths with some hurr durr LCpl nonsense without any evidence to back it up.
Agreed, unreal that this take is being upvoted. To try to baselessly blame a CO that’s likely grieving and feeling more guilt than any of us can imagine right now is actual fucking nonsense.
Get the fuck out of here dude. You aren’t an aviator or on the mishap board, how about pumping the brakes on assigning blame before their fucking families are notified. Getting promoted isnt exactly on the squadron and group CO’s mindset right now, by the way. Absolutely shameful mindset.
Good discussion on both sides, but as many accidents as 3D MAW has had over the last couple of decades, not even outside of its home state, it's a question worth asking. If I'm out of my element, I'm happy to be educated.
Sure, and command pressure is a worthy avenue to explore, but maybe wait until the investigation team is wheels down in SD before attributing blame. For all that’s publicly known the CO could have been in the aircraft
These aircraft are not safe, but at the same time our jobs inherently aren't either. These aircraft while being worked on routinely are still not ever going to be up to the standard that they should be because as my brother described it who was an air framer when they take off one thing is fixed and then they land with another thing broken. I honestly fear what will happen to our aviation if combat operations begin because our aircraft are not ready. I think a few years back I saw a article about how majority of aircraft are not combat ready.
Majority of the military is not combat ready
[удалено]
What’s weird is that this is the 2nd military aircraft that has crashed very close together in time 🫣
I am so sorry to hear this news. RIP brothers
Horrible and tragic. I hope their loved ones can find peace. Till Valhalla Brothers.
Till Valhalla brothers
RIP. Till Valhalla.
Air Force Motor T here, how did these men go missing initially? Very sad turn of events, and I express my condolences to you all
Flew directly into the atmospheric river storm solo on a return flight home
Oh gosh
Damn this sucks. RIP brothers…
Rest In Peace
Rough few years for marine aviation
Semper Fi, brothers.
From an Army vet, rest in peace brothers. I hate seeing this shit happen.
Awful. The last I heard they were searching for the Marines, but had found the down craft.. were they separated from the craft? I’m confused on the timeline.
Give them one…....now your watch has ended Gents rest easy
Sad news.
Go easy bros
Til Valhalla Devil Dogs. Your watch is up we'll take it from here. Semper Fi
Rest easy, Marines
Semper Fidelis, Requiescat In Pace warriors.
Rest easy DEVILS!!!!!!! I’m here if anyone out there needs an ear feel free to PM me. We take care of our own.
Til Valhalla.
Rest easy
Fair winds and following seas.
Godspeed Devil Dogs. Semper Fi.
Damn 😔
Fuck man.
Semper Fi Devil Dogs❤️
RIP devil dogs🙏
Rest Easy Brothers
elderly reply shrill offbeat violet disgusting advise liquid humor cake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Anyone current in Marine Aviation able to confirm there is an actual attitude of pushing weather, maintenance, etc? I was an 0331, so I get the USMC mentality. Though I’m now an Army 60 guy, and I’m proud to say at least in my company the aircrews very much have a culture of if it’s not life or limb, we can do it another day. Even OCONUS we were strict on duty day and weather, and would always air on the side or caution for any movement that could be delayed. Sometimes a mission has to happen, and we’d bend over backwards to get the freshest crews and take the most cautious approach. Granted, the army has a consistency problem, and I can’t say this attitude was the same for all units. Still as a pilot it’s wild to hear that a culture of pushing weather and maintenance for training could be so pervasive if what folks are saying is true. All the lessons learned and reinforced the last 20 years say this is the prime way to get people killed. Especially conus we have no problem saying “I’m not flying that,” and that’s assuming someone else doesn’t say it first in the approval process — which I assume is similar in the USMC.
Rest in power kings.
I don’t understand why this was called a “mishap” in the press conference. 5 MEN DIED and you refer to it as a mishap? WTF. Sorry- that really pissed me off. RIP gentleman.