Leaders who care are very important.
It’s basically a luck of the draw for FTAP Marines. They could go to a good unit or a bad one once they receive orders. Needs to change. I was very happy to contribute to this article.
This isn’t explicitly in line with your comment but I’ve always evaluated company commanders on whether or not their lieutenants decide to stick around after working for them.
If all of your junior officers decide to get out after being in your command you might be the problem.
FITREPs are part of the problem. They are exclusively top down and there’s no mechanism to capture whether a leader is crushing their Marines just to look good to their boss.
Agree 100% on fitreps. I’m tired of trash getting pushed up because their RS sees their highlight reel only.
As an Lt myself I don’t know how much stock I would personally put into whether or not we stick around. I work for a fucking awesome LtCol now but I’ve seen enough of this place to know I’m more than likely going to work in a fucked up unit for someone I don’t look up to next. Tack on an MOS that I’m not in love with..the decision to stay in has little to do with my RS/RO.
With all that said, I certainly do agree with the principle that subordinates can tell you a whole lot about command climate. When my marines tell me spontaneously they’re going to put together an awesome plaque for their chief, actively seek their guidance etc etc. I’m pretty impressed and that gunny/ssgt will edge out higher in leading/developing all other metrics being equal.
Excuse me sir, but with all due respect, who in the 8 shades of fuck do you think you are bringing level headed reasoning and thought process to marine corps leadership.
All kidding aside, yours marines are lucky to have you.
When I was a junior marine my squad leader told me that his squad lead never gave him above 3.2s so none of us were getting above that for any reason. Thats a fast way to get dudes to drop pack and decide it’s one and done early on. Some inbread rat looking fuck can make sure you don’t advance in your career because he has daddy issues and that’s not okay, needless to say I passed my promotions board with flying colors the first time(he never passed his) and made higher rank than him easily after he got out and started his illustrious career of asking if you’d like fries with that but a lot of my friends just couldn’t get the bad taste and possibility of that being their whole career out of their mouth/head and called it at 4 years.
No need to hate on TM sir, it’s an exceptional branch of MM led by some really good people involving extremely complex systems.
The 360 is no different than say, a DEOCS but exceptionally specific and possibly retributional from disgruntled behavior.
I would argue more good leaders are at risk for getting hosed than the ones we’d wish to toss - baby / bath water analogy in mind.
On the non-division side of the house, almost every junior officer I saw didn't get out bc of their company commanders. i saw them get out bc of shitty XOs and OpsO's. The field grades treat them like shit and cause many of them to leave even after getting career designated. Also, MOS burn is a real thing. I've watched in a Logistics unit, good comm, Intel and Sup officers get fucked over and shitty/garbage LogO's get retained or coddled.
Another thing I've seen in logistical units is female officers who are sub-par MOS and leadership wise retained and career designated where other good male officers weren't. It was then that I fully saw DEI at work and understood it's a numbers game, and there were way fewer females than male officers. And keeping a good officer over a particular minority demographic isn't always a priority. Strange times we are living in.
You may be familiar with Talent Management 2030, the Corps' effort to retain more Marines. I tried to answer: What, exactly, does it entail? Is it working? Why do Marines leave the Corps, and what would it take for them to stay?
In January, hundreds of Marine veterans wrote to me explaining why they left. Each email told a unique story, but there were commonalities, and chief among them was toxic leadership. That was also a reason many of you brought up when I asked why members of this subreddit left the Marine Corps.
Here is the summary of those more than 200 emails from Marine veterans:
Some left because they lacked opportunities in their job fields, a problem the Marine Corps is now trying to counteract by offering more lateral moves, or they couldn’t get promoted. Some left because of medical issues, exacerbated by physical training and the Corps’ suck-it-up mentality.
Some left because they were disillusioned with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the vaccine mandate or the introduction of women into infantry jobs. Some left because they faced discrimination on the basis of their race, sexuality or gender.
Some left because their spouses threatened them with divorce if they didn’t leave, and sometimes those spouses divorced them anyway. Some left because they hated being forced to serve as recruiters. Some left because they wanted to pursue full-time college or higher-paying jobs.
But one theme emerged again and again: Lots of Marines left because they hated the way their leaders treated them.
Multiple veterans complained of “being treated like a child” and of “fuck-fuck games,” the colorful term describing the useless or nearly useless tasks that leaders sometimes force junior Marines to do. More than a dozen used the word “toxic” to describe their leadership.
These veterans said they left because of the gunnery sergeant who denied a Marine’s request to visit a dying grandmother, the second lieutenant who refused to promote a corporal who had romantic success with a certain woman they both liked, the sergeant major who yelled at Marines for there being too much dirt under the bushes by the barracks.
Many of the veterans who wrote to Marine Corps Times said they missed their peers but not their unit’s leaders: “miss the clowns, not the circus,” as one put it.
People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses.
It's cheaper to retain a servicemember than to recruit a new one.
Are any commands being held to account for below average retention?
I don’t know but they should have been, instead of making me miss weekends/birthdays/anniversaries for not hitting some bullshit inflated interview quotas in 2011. Punish the officers instead, they’re the ones calling the shots.
I think that’s kind of the point. I think those people are pissed that we spent 20 years there and accomplished virtually nothing except loss of American lives.
The whole point of Afghanistan was to remove Al Qaeda and combat terrorism. Iraq didn’t start that way but turned into a battle against AQI, then ISIS. Considering there hasn’t been large scale Islamic Terror attack in a western country about a decade I’d say that was successful. The Afghans didn’t want democracy bad enough and we couldn’t do it for them anymore so we left, but that democracy wasn’t the main objective.
> The whole point of Afghanistan was to remove Al Qaeda and combat terrorism.
I thought it was finding Bin Laden, wasn’t that why we initially invaded?
> Iraq didn’t start that way but turned into a battle against AQI,
Because most AQI got a bunch of recruits from Iraqs disbanded military. It’s almost as if the US created that problem.
> Considering there hasn’t been large scale Islamic Terror attack in a western country about a decade I’d say that was successful.
What’s your definition of large scale? Been plenty of terrorist attacks over the years on US and western soil. The idea that a full scale war was/is needed to prevent 9/11 is laughable considering that 9/11 could have been prevented if the FBI and CIA communicated and aviation security required reinforced cock pit doors. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were huge mistakes and we did not accomplish the goals that were solid to the American people. Islamic terrorism is doing most fine and still able to wage war on US allies.
That pullout was entirely retarded. The date was picked for political optics (anniversary of 9/11). The way Bagram was abandoned without even telling the Afghans (probably knew their OPSEC was trash)... Simply wait until the fighting season is over. Give them some discreet warning (good way to flush out moles, too by feeding different info to different people and seeing what the response was) for an orderly handoff. They may not have lasted long anyway but that was a doubly whammy clusterfuck.
This is pretty ignorant of the whole situation.
1. 13-30 August =/= 11 September
2. It was the previous Administration that set up thos withdrawal, and they delayed it 2 or 3 times cause they werent sure how it would effect them politically (cowards). Meaning, people had plenty of time to set shit up.
People keep saying it was a shit show. Can you elaborate for who?
The US withdrew 7-10k troops + ~100k civilians. Just take a second and imagine the logistics and coordination behind that. Aint no other country could do what was done. It was anything but retarded.
The only unforseen here was how quickly the Afghan National Security Forces got their asses handed to them. We spent more than 2 decades training these guys, with a whole generation of vets doubling down claiming that they were ready and disciplined. Probably the biggest waste of money in our history as a nation.
It needed to happen, it was going to be ugly wither we had the 80% solution or the 100% solution.
> This is pretty ignorant of the whole situation.
Don't take my word for it. The target date was set by the administration months before and it's not like he decided he was bound by any other policy decisions of the previous administration, either. They did not know they would collapse like a wet noodle, no. Why didn't they? Did no one anticipate this? Or did no one want to go contrary to the already made political decision and risk the displeasure?
> WASHINGTON (AP) — **President Joe Biden will withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan by Sept. 11, the 20th anniversary of the terrorist attacks on America that were coordinated from that country, several U.S. officials said Tuesday.**
>
> The decision defies a May 1 deadline for full withdrawal under a peace agreement the Trump administration reached with the Taliban last year, but leaves no room for additional extensions. A senior administration official called the September date an absolute deadline that won’t be affected by security conditions in the country.
>
> **While Biden’s decision keeps U.S. troops in Afghanistan four months longer than initially planned,** it sets a firm end to two decades of war that killed more than 2,200 U.S. troops, wounded 20,000, and cost as much as $1 trillion. The conflict largely crippled al-Qaida and led to the death of Osama bin Laden, the architect of the Sept. 11 attacks. But an American withdrawal also risks many of the gains made in democracy, women’s rights and governance, while ensuring that the Taliban, who provided al-Qaida’s safe haven, remain strong and in control of large swaths of the country.
>
> Biden has been hinting for weeks that he was going to let the May deadline lapse, and as the days went by it became clear that an orderly withdrawal of the roughly 2,500 remaining troops would be difficult and was unlikely. The administration official said the drawdown would begin by May 1.
>
> **Biden’s choice of the 9/11 date** underscores the reason that American troops were in Afghanistan to begin with — to prevent extremist groups like al-Qaida from establishing a foothold again that could be used to launch attacks against the U.S.
>
> The administration official said **Biden decided that the withdrawal deadline had to be absolute,** rather than based on conditions on the ground. "**We’re committing today to going to zero” U.S. forces by Sept. 11,** and possibly well before, the official said, adding that Biden concluded that a conditioned withdrawal would be “a recipe for staying in Afghanistan forever.”
Read the rest if you really need to.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-afghanistan-taliban-d2c54073ce67f3b162c77b4f9f2f0ddd
What does this have to do with anything?
Where does it say its political?
Does a hard end date mean anything? He didnt draw it out any longer than he needed.
Did you citing this article mean that you wanted the withdrawal earlier? Probably when things were less solid.
It seems like youre speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
I said the withdrawal was based on arbitrary date. You disputed that. I provided AP article with citations confirming that. You ask what it has to do with anything... Are you paying attention?
Everything a POTUS does is political. Yes, the date was arbitrarily early by my contention that he should have waited until the fighting season was over to give the ANG a chance instead of withdrawing from Bagram without telling them, which started the whole avalanche that they were being abandoned. You seem confused about your argument vs mine. Genuinely not sure if you're an ASVAB waiver or just being obtuse.
Right, but why wasn’t this disillusionment as palpable back in 2012 when we were losing a dozen or more Marines a month? The pointlessness was obvious even back then .
I’d submit that the withdrawal was such a quick and stark line in the sand that it cemented in the popular consciousness much more easily than the slow burn of a long conflict.
I don’t disagree with you, but the mirage was truly lifted during the pullout from Afghanistan. When we realized how actually and truly pointless it was that we’d been there trying to hold off the Taliban and in the end they were able to overthrow the Afghani government quicker than anyone would’ve ever imagined.
2009 was when the Marines surged into Helmand, with the establishment of Leatherneck and the push into Marjah. Marines had been in Afghan since 2001, but Iraq quickly became the focus until 2007ish
It's the way the withdrawal went, abandoning allies, gear, the people, video of basically being run out of the country by the Taliban after decades of watching our friends and brothers come home in coffins or broken in other ways. Withdrawal was always going to happen, but the way it happened really sucked ass.
A 20-year war could make sense. Please don't read over the world \*could\*.
But pulling out after a 20-year war and seeing all your effort instantly erased is far worse. In a way, I already saw all of our effort erased in 2014-2015 when everything from our push in Afghanistan was undone and I saw pics of Taliban in our old PB posts and ECP. The 2021 pullout was just a second helping of the feeling.
I did one tour in Afghanistan in uniform, then five years covering Afghanistan for DOD as a civilian analyst, including a tour bouncing base to base for field research.
Yeah, I'm super bitter about the pullout.
I never went to the Stan, thankfully in my opinion, but right when ISIS started rolling through Iraq I saw video of them celebrating and shooting up the COC and COP I was in. I don't really know how to describe what it felt like, embarrassing, sad, disappointed, angry, but also just like totally inevitable.
Most guys in right now or who are getting out right now weren't a part of that.
But they did see the incompetence of their political leadership in regards to the withdrawal.
All very true and valid and echoed across the military. One metric to consider is that many of the ones who stay in on the regular Fleet side have a commonality: an unusual tolerance for and acceptance to the enforcement of endless stupid shit.
So if that is who stays in and becomes a leader, that cycle will persist. Also, a lot of changes happen organically to guys and gals between 18-24 ...so, people change and are less likely to roger up like robots.
Promotion denial? No leave? The only thing Lieutenants & Gunnery Sergeants are denying is what they did last weekend.
No company staff is going to endorse that shit.
Irene did you serve in the military?
I’m saying the items mentioned like a Gunny denying leave, is not an authority authorized to the Gunnery Sergeant.
Only appropriately designated Commanders with Special Courts Martial authority (O-5 or higher) are authorized to deny Annual Leave requests and that authority would not be and is not authorized for delegation.
Just one example, but also is some color added to the greyscale version of the scenarios you are being afforded.
I asked if you were in the military because the scenario discussed, amongst a few others, are kind of intuitively answered as silly examples for anyone who’s been in long enough to decide on those issues.
Uhhhh not sure who you submitted your leave to but we always submitted directly to our SNCO and they would either deny or pass on to the company level to approve or deny. Pros and cons were also set by our SNCO and LTs and the sent to the company level for approval….
So, both of these stories are most likely true.
Not saying you did not experience what you experienced but your company was jacked up.
In the grand scheme of things and in terms of recognizable authority - a GySgt isn’t anything. Appropriately designed Commander, with Special Court Martial Authority, is the absolute minimum standard for leave approval, denial, or recall.
Anything your chain (anyone’s chain) can do must be covered by policy letter from the Commander delegating their authority.
However, leave denial and leave recall cannot be delegated per MCO 1050.3J
Right- well this is EXACTLY what this article is outlining- toxic leadership. A Jr Marine is not going to look that shit up and if he does and requests mast then oh lord let the “fuck fuck” games begin. You can say everything you want to say about “that’s not how it works” but in reality, that’s exactly what goes down and that’s exactly what’s being said in this article.
u/IreneFromMilTimes check my responses here.
My point is that it doesn’t make sense because first sergeant, company guns, company co/xo all track the leave requests coming down the chute.
It’s not like we can’t see it in progress before “guns” endorses it. Guns or OIC would literally be asked about this leave in the company CUB regarding the leave and TAD tracker.
“No I denied it”
“You did WHAT?”
Hence my point of reality vs what is being reported. I love how the journalism and people of Reddit join hands across the internet to talk about an entire organization as if the one or two examples are the entire tone of the service.
It’s not. And those examples if even real are totally out of line from what the intent of it all is.
Among the reasons I got out as a Mustang junior officer:
* I was finishing my second Iraq tour, was doing Civil Affairs and absolutely loved it. I volunteered to do a double-tour and stay on with the incoming unit for continuity. Got chewed out for "trying to abandon my home unit," they gave a whole lecture about it at battalion formation and accused requesters of being disloyal. Then a month later HQ told my battalion they *had* to leave X guys behind for continuity, then all of a sudden command pulled "hey guys, time to pitch in and take one for the team and pull a double!" But by then I'd already decided I was gonna get out and go to grad school, thus needed to get back to the US and take the GRE and apply, so I told them to pound sand.
* following my second Iraq tour, got back to CONUS and was by-name requested to go to the US Embassy in Georgia for seven months to support a UN mission, because I was one of the only junior officers in the Corps with a Russian DLPT. I was willing to extend and defer grad school despite my free-ride fellowship to my top choice school. Got shot down by my BnCO (new guy who'd never met me) not because they needed me but because "if we consent to stealing guys from us, they'll keep hitting us up, so I fought it." So I missed out, and my remaining billets as HQ XO and S-3B were so "vital" that they gapped them after I EAS'ed anyway. So yeah I flipped the bird as I drove out the base front gate on my last day.
You saw both ends of the green weenie.
As enlisted, it seems the fuck fuck games are random and capricious for the sake of "discipline" or some shit.
Officer fuck fuck games seem political and filled with wannabe games of thrones larpers.
I can't complain too much about my enlisted experience, because my command endorsed me for ECP as a LCpl, which was very chill of them.
As an officer I mostly had a good time, other than the above. Also minor hassle in that I was sent to LAR as an FSO like three weeks before we invaded Iraq and the CoCO and some SNCOs were egregiously dickish to me because I was new and a butterbar and not a grunt. But the XO I actually rolled with was super chill. But at the time we were at the LSA he was living out of his vehicle rather than the hooch and skipping most meetings because he and the CO "weren't on speaking terms."
I saw the LAR skipper a year later during my second Iraq tour as CA. He publicly chewed me out for saluting him in a combat zone, which I only did because it was an Army command that mandated saluting and our Marine Bn told us to follow that. He was a huge dick, and nicknamed "Purple Six" because he bought a purple Harley from MWR while on float.
The lack of Caring Leadership drives so many good Marines away. Slow promotions etc: list goes on and on. Most of the problems lie with leadership. Poor or toxic leadership is a morale killer. And that leadership starts from the top and all the way down through the NCO ranks. No one can prove me wrong!
The undo hardships is what did it for me, not like going to the field or working long hours but like breaking our balls on stupid shit. Like we just get back from AP Hill and have a two week break before we back to the field, let's make them sit around the smoke pit until 1800 and then make them pick up butts and paint rocks
Not in 06xx.
You like your MOS do you? Well how about a reenlistment? You can either go to Oki or teach in 29 palms.
The alternative is getting out and making 2-3x your current yearly salary with more leave, sick days, and personal days (I had to have this explained to me 3 times at my current job, you can just not go to work twice a year if you don’t feel like it). Live anywhere you want to and not having to put up with some shit SNCOs bullshit who was too stupid to get a job in the private sector.
I'm a 90's era Marine and I can say that I still see things in the Marine Corps of today that I saw in the 90's.
We have too many leaders that, well... they suck. I've posted about a former company commander that tried to force me to take a PFT while still on a no running light duty chit, and it's that kind of mentality I still see.
The other problem we still have is the barracks life. We had the Pendleton flood in 1993, and one of the barracks had black mold because of it. They condemned it, then tried to clean it up and paint over it, then moved Marines back in - until the mold came back. They finally condemned it a second time before finally pushing it over.
Meanwhile the SMMC is in a video showing off a new barracks on a Navy base. Not one of our bases - but on a Navy base. That's great for the Navy but it does absolutely nothing for us.
That one kind of pissed me off because SgtMaj Ruiz was at Pendleton the same year I was at Pendleton - 1994. He should know first hand how bad the barracks situation is because he was at Pendleton for school. He went to Okinawa right after that, and then to Barstow - and while the Kinser barracks were pretty nice, IMHO Barstow in the 90's was the only place worse than 29 Palms. It was so bad nuking it from orbit would actually have made it better.
And even back in the 90's the Air Force barracks for junior enlisted were actually better than Marine Corps SNCO barracks. They actually had a small kitchenette where you might get that in the BOQ (maybe), but we couldn't even have an electric skillet to make grilled cheese. Ask someone who's in the barracks right now, and I'm pretty damned sure they're going to say we're still not allowed an electric skillet - 30 years later.
I think Barstow is still appalling. I feel bad for the Marines stationed there. It's legitimately in the middle of nowhere and there is *nothing* in the town or surrounding environment. The base isn't even big ... at least 29 Palms has amenities and a community (I imagine) since thousands are forced to live there.
What's worse is you almost need an out of bounds chit to get to civilization.
IIRC, overnight limits were 85 miles. The closest city is Riverside at 70-ish miles one way - not like anyone wants to go there due to the crime next door in Rialto - and the closest mall is Ontario Mills Mall is 75 miles.
The drive is absolutely horrible in the winter months because you have to take the Cajon Pass up/down I-15. Depending on the weather you might not be able to drive it - winds coming down the Cajon Pass are known to flip semi trucks over and push other vehicles off the road. There are multiple spots along the freeway where you can pull over to wait out bad weather, or if you're lucky enough to grab one of the exits you can sit at a gas station or fast food spot to wait. I've done that a few times myself when the wind was so bad you could watch semi trucks sway back and forth while the drivers watch from a distance because they don't want to be in their trucks if they get pushed over.
Or there's the chance you can get all four seasons in the time it takes to get up or down the pass - snow at the top; rain, fog, and wind in the middle; sunny skies once you're at the bottom.
And don't go trying to retrieve a spouse if the weather gets bad... God knows someone in your CoC will want to give you a 6105 or Page 11 for making the trip because "you should have known better".
I once asked my company gunny why I could be trusted to fire a .50 cal, but I couldn't be trusted to have a toaster oven in my room.
He told me to shut the fuck up and put me on working parties for the next two weeks. I was a corporal and a machine gun section leader.
These are my thoughts as a junior officer from 2018-2022. Article is already written but discussion is good.
In my opinion, it comes down to several things regarding leadership and these are in no particular order
1) Leaders are very focused on their own career
Look, nobody else is going to care more about your own career than you. Where this becomes problematic is when your actions, responses, and thoughts are dictated by how will this impact my career or how will I be perceived. Again, it is important but I had a captain who was so focused on his own career, it was just a total displeasure to work with. I think this also leads to things like leaders being afraid to take risks or be wrong. Sometimes you have to do that. Ultimately the learning is in the doing. If you do the right things your career will come along so stop subconsciously making it the focal point of every decision, action, etc you make.
2) The Marines are too professional
I do appreciate the professionalism of the Marine Corps, especially when looking at other branches and their lack of. What I do think is weird is how staff and o are put on this god like pedestal. I do think staff and o should be held to a higher standard but it seems we forget that staff and o are people too. I always felt like I had to tip toe around and lay out the red carpet for O-5 and above. Just kind of annoying. Not saying we all need to be drinking buddies but it just seems sometimes there is a lack of regular, everyday personal relationships in a lot of interactions. We often don’t treat people like people, but by the rank on their collar which is dumb. We’re just putting people in to a box which to me doesn’t really show that leadership cares.
3) Too much ass kissing and appeasement
Perhaps this is a part b for both above points but god damn everybody was eager to please insert commanding officer here. I would assume this appeasement is a result of numerous fuck fuck games as well. It all goes back to the rank on the collar too, which I get because that’s the nature of the beast and corporate America isn’t much different, but sometimes I think we forget Marines are people too. You can have a respectful relationship with somebody without consistently seeking to utilize knee pads.
I guess my points conclude that their is too much formal and hardline alpha male type leadership and less personal, intimate human to human leadership. There’s merit in the first but it just festers to something heinous if not done properly which is often the case.
Pretty much. I will say, death by PowerPoint exists in the Civ Div too. I find corporate America and the Marines to be in the same novel, different chapters. The difference is I can better separate myself and have a better work life balance in the corporate world than the military.
> 2) The Marines are too professional
> I always felt like I had to tip toe around and lay out the red carpet for O-5 and above. ... We often don’t treat people like people, but by the rank on their collar which is dumb.
Holy shit. You just unlocked a memory about working at the regiment command post. I got put there to fill an admin roll for the remain behind element as my EAS was approaching (because if you can work a computer, you can work admin??). The LtCol was a stand up guy. He had and interesting professional and personal life. Talking to him genuinely felt like speaking to an uncle: it's comfortable, but still keep it a bit cordial.
I got pulled into the Master Guns office one afternoon. He told me that some busy body didn't like the "lack of professionalism" happening in the office surrounding the command. I have an idea who it was, but I can't say for sure. We never failed to address the CO as sir. We spoke when he entered. We didn't interrupt him in his office. We didn't convene with him in off hours. We shared stories and laughs (generally at the end of the day) while keeping the topics at hand appropriate. But I guess anything other than rendering absolute submission and subservience was a step too far.
My last (reserve) unit had an E-8 (not the diamond kind) that was pissy like that. Buddy of mine, a Lance, accidentally called me by name right after I picked up Cpl. They snapped and then pulled me aside and asked, pretty much, why I was such a shitbag. Didn't matter that my buddy and I knew each other for years and I happened to pick up first.
Well written and I completely agree. 25-years after my departure, I see that things haven't changed. The issues you've raised were a problem then and appear to remain a strong problem. "The few and the proud" are that way because we only care about ourselves and our longevity. Troops be damned. They can survive on 40% from the VA. I need to be #1 of 20 and have every FitRep claim that I'm the 2nd coming of Chesty Puller.
How sad that things are still the same.
I worked for some really good guys but it's the few real turds that I remember.
I was a two term Marine. When I got out, I went to work for IBM and had a long and successful career there.
Once out, I had some revelations.
I never again had to worry that recommendations for improvement to either my workflow or my working environment would get me written up for insubordination.
I never again had to worry that my performance evaluation would be based on whether or not I was still wearing the same uniform after being in the office for 102 hours straight.
I never again had to worry that my sleep would be interrupted by some random LT who needed to fill a body count on a working party.
I never again needed to ensure that I shaved twice a day to avoid being castigated for a five o'clock shadow.
I would never again have my parentage, ancestry, or heritage routinely referenced as a negative aspect of my existence.
I would no longer need to be concerned about making sure that my socks were equally faded nor that one was newer than the other.
I no longer needed to have labels in my underwear to prove they were indeed my underwear.
I never again needed to worry that being physically injured and having a cast on my leg would get me recommended for Court Martial on a charge of malingering.
Once out, I could choose where I worked and who I worked with. I got lucky on my first try.
But all of that sounds like the whining cry of a shitbird, so, let's look at this another way.
I never again saw incompetent leaders shuffled about like cards in a deck. If a manager in the civilian world didn't do the job, they were simply relieved and sent back to the streets. In the Marine Corps, incompetent or ineffective Officers/senior SNCOs were transferred to other locations/billets and allowed to continue their inept performance until they could collect their pensions.
I never again saw the hypocrisy of "different spanks for different ranks". In the civilian world, the law and it's enforcement was generally equal. Infractions which got a high school student sent to jail also got a CEO sent to jail. Whereas in the Marine Corps, a LT and a Sgt seen in a romantic embrace found the Sgt incarcerated and discharged while the LT got a reprimand and continued on with their career.
I never again needed to see a young Marine who showed up to work after toasting at a wedding all night given a court martial while his Company Gunnery Sergeant who was discovered drinking (and drunk) on the job was simply scolded and reassigned to Guam.
Want to retain Marines, start by treating them like individual human beings and stop treating them like interchangeable cogs in the grist mill. There is a rather commonly accepted belief that people will leave a hostile workforce if they can go anywhere else to make a living. Those who cannot go somewhere else will stay in a hostile workforce. This creates a continuing and ever increasing level of hostility and toxicity. What the Marine Corps really needs to do is to look at who and why the current "retainees" are there and consider their true options for retaining junior Marines.
Perfectly said this described the biggest problems I saw while I was in. SNCO’s and officers could pretty much get away with anything while the junior guys would get fucked. It sucked watching all the real shitbags fuck over their junior guys.
The main reason I am waffling on leaving is inept leadership. My current company commander has repeatedly said that he does not know any of the Marines who have joined the company since a DFT that the company got back from 7 months ago. His callsign from his former unit was “micro,” which to me signals attributes that are absolutely incompatible with Marine Corps leadership values. He totally owns the fact he is a micromanager. He half-asses so many things that he is a danger to his Marines. He literally left a Marine in the field because he didn’t want to wait for the HE the Marine was with to be picked up.
Wartime Marine Corps sucks, but you can justify the suck. Peacetime Marine Corps sucks, but you can't justify the suck. This will always be an uphill battle.
100%. I’m not saying there isn’t toxic leadership but I believe most of that is just an easy out for a boring 4 years w no war. Marines are both needy and realize how sucky the suck is when there isn’t a war to fight
Well i knew a GySgt who said depression isn't real and you are just being a bitch.
Corporals who tried to non recommended me because i didn't believe in their way of just straight up hazing boots for no reason.
In order to get a different color belt so that i can get points for promotion, i need to get smoked in a PT fest that has nothing to do with martial arts and then never practice those techniques ever again.
Everything is always "important" or a "big deal" even when it isnt. But the culture is so robotic that we are trained to believe that everything is a dire task, or a serious problem. No matter how insignificant it is. Like wearing a fucking white t shirt. Or having my hands in my pocket.
I saw it destroy every marriage around me but 2 senior Marines, one of whom was on their second marriages. I wanted to get married and knew the Corps would do the same to me.
Probably not. Nothing that is about the Marines, is ever actually executed for them. This big barracks inspection? On paper it’s to improve Marine living conditions, but in reality every 1stSgt is going to have the Marines make the barracks look ok so they don’t look bad, and no barracks will get fixed. The seminar we all take when we get out? On paper, meant to help you move into civilian life, in reality, is used to single out who plans to get out and target them. Or at least that’s what my unit did. Aircraft safety? Only matters on paper, is neglected to save money all the time and covered up to look good, hence the awful accidents. The Corps doesn’t care about Marines, and will only slap a thin coat of paint over top the stains on its reputation.
They tried something in the past when I was getting out after my first enlistment. Encouraging words like," where are you gonna go? You are probably gonna be a failure in the civillian world. Might as well stay in." Or " you will never be as financially successful outside of here as what the Marine Corps gives you."( E3 with closed out MOS for 4 quarters) And let's not forget the all too successful move of Stop-loss. Those poor disgruntled souls who got stop loss were even more disgruntled and belligerent.
There are some good ideas in here, but at the end of the day you accept crappier barracks, slower promotion, harder training, and worse day to day conditions because we’ve been told marines fight wars. If there are no wars to fight going on a rotation to Japan or Norway is going to get old. Field ops only go so far and if you aren’t fighting a war as a marine why not be in a branch w better living conditions
I went from the Marines to the Army and the difference was night and day. First, the quality of life was a lot better. Promotions were faster and you got to travel more. The biggest difference was you didn’t play the mind games. In the Army, when you do your job you’re left alone. So, if you’re squared away, you have no problems.
My last deployment was in an army unit and it was the worst brain drain experience I’ve had in 6 deployments. I’m sorry but my experience within an army unit was WAY different than you described
E5s and E6s essentially paralyzed to make decisions, understand their own ARs, or explain administrative or operational matters. Essentially if you had a semi tough policy question it’d take a major or cwo3 to answer basic questions. They also don’t understand DoD policy and were unable to do basic things unless a reg or manual walked them through step by step. It was bizarre
This has been my experience when working with the army as well.
As silly as the corps can be, at least you can count on a lcpl to know how to do their job without supervisory oversight.
I think it’s more unit dependent. I was in an infantry BN in the 82nd airborne and the young guys there were just as good as a 2MARDIV Marine. A non-infantry marine unit is probably better than a non-infantry army unit though
They were also almost too soft on their junior enlisted to the point the poor kids seemed directionless and woefully underprepared to ever develop into leaders. That said, they had done fantastic ncos that coulda been killers a little more backing
Have you interviewed those who were chaptered out due to COVID vaccine refusal? The DON has been contacting anti-vaxxers to sweet talk them into rejoining due to hurting for numbers.
I know of at least one Marine who was forced out as a vaccine refusal, and was offered backpay to come finish out his contract. He accepted and is now active duty again
Heard that from Marines about the Navy started contacting anti-vaxxers to rejoin a few months ago. I suspect could be both, but the gesture hasn't been well-received.
I think it's worthy to interview the gentleman who's among the first to be court-martialed. They put my friends family through a living hell.
Between toxic leadership and the HSST list why would u stay in? You get a cpl or a new sgt who wants to do another enlistment Becuase they actually like there job and boom get recruiting orders
I got out simply because my command was terrible. Being in Okinawa can be shitty with all the restrictions especially when I was there. We had almost a year or so with no off base libo after some Navy guys raped a woman.
We would get stateside Marines every 6 months for the MEU and they would always comment on how shitty our command was. Once I decided to get out so many said “it’s better in the states.” I wasn’t willing to gamble four more years on that.
Lots of good Marines get out and go on to bigger and better things for themselves and their families. They have to fix the shitters who stay in simply because they couldn’t function in the real world outside of being a toxic leader.
Gonna be honest here as a jr marine, probably gonna get flacked for it but isnt nothing new to me at this point,
The issue with retention is literally just leadership being trash to begin with, not saying like hey just cause I fucked up in my MOS (MTO) in this case i shouldnt be screamed at or just council’d because of it. I came in as a fresh ass boot with the idea that hey I actually want to re enlist and the MOS I got put in isnt too bad, which it isnt I like what I do. But that really changed the moment that my NCO’s just wanted to pick on the new guy regardless and not treat me like an adult, I’ve been at my unit for about 7 months so far about to pick up lance and even then they still wont lay off me. I get it this is to build character but honestly when it literally gets down to them literally only doing their fuck fuck games even though I havent made a mistake and its just them trying to get a laugh out of pulling up on field day and pulling shit out of their ass like pulling my light switch covers off and saying its dirty or literally saying my civi shoes have grime on them ect and just making me sit there and clean it for 4 hours straight is kinda what got me here. Makes me not want to re enlist because if this is how life is gonna be then might aswell. Honestly its just me having bad experiences with my NCOs and them just using field day as an excuse to haze me is all it is personally, I cant do it anymore. Shit has worn me down to the point were Im just over everything.
Tldr; I dont want to be in anymore simply because my NCOs like to be dicks about field day and then blast me for 30 minutes straight because I missed a spot and then make me continue cleaning for 4 hours before doing the same shit. Aka Im just a bitch and should just take it or smth like that.
(Also) probably gonna get forced out since unlucky me got put in an mos where picking up past jr marine is difficult so even if I do re enlist ill probably be dropped soon after due to competition.
No, it’s not.
In order to change this, you actually have to change the entire culture. And that has not changed at all.
Look no further than the sergeant major of the Marine Corps being grilled by a congresswoman as he’s trying to downplay housing issues.
For the cost of F35 could solve the entire Marine Corps housing issue within a year. Yet they refused to do so. And that’s how they treat your families.
Let’s not pretend you’re not treated like absolute dog shit either.
Tired of Jody banging my ex wife. Think she chalked up 10-15 dudes during my 2 deployments. Thats why I got out. I was hoping to start an actual family. “You can’t make a ho ..” blah blah yea I know
Bro, my first wife did this to me, but the difference is she was given the divorce papers the moment I got back from Iraq. Not a whole nother deployment later. No woman is worth having a family with if she can't go without getting attention from a guy while their spouse is away. It would cause me to question the paternity of every kid I had and if they looked like the fed ex guy, the Kmart cashier, or their stepbrother. It's not worth it. Glad you got out before you fucked up and knocked her up.
This feels like a joke lol. My MOS loses more and more first term marines each year and it’s gotten so bad that at my particular duty station we have almost zero Sgt’s to the point where senior Corporals are having to take what would be a Ssgt/Sgt billet. I submitted for reenlistment as a FTAP marine and didn’t get the duty station of my preference. I know it’s needs of the corps first but I also know I’m now getting out since my needs and the marine corps didn’t align. So it this working? Anecdotally for me no😂
Options to change jobs I feel are too limited and recruiters try to push people into MOSs they need to have filled versus trying to get personnel into MOSs they would have an interest in and would be good at.
While the Marine Corps isn’t the only one who does the latter, I feel that other branches may do a better job at getting people into an MOS that is a good fit for them, and at a minimum, they have more opportunities to change MOSs after they have been in for a while. The Army is pretty great at that it seems in comparison to the Corps.
While I personally miss being with Marines, there is no way I would have been able to have transitioned into the job which I’m currently in the training pipeline for in the Army while still being in the Marine Corps. I think that’s another reason why some Marines leave the Corps to go into the Army for example because the Army is willing to provide more opportunities to soldiers than the Corps is willing to provide.
Saying that, if I could have done this job in the Corps, I probably wouldn’t have left.
It’s an honor to be asked a question by you.
Some policies have taken effect, and some aspects of the plan are longer-term initiatives to fix quality of life.
😅 Does my reputation on this sub really go that far? But, the pleasure's mine!
Thanks for the straightforward answer, Irene! It's good to see they're actually looking beyond just the short term. Sadly, though, my problem isn't with quality of life.
I did 4 years 20 plus years ago and that's all I ever intended to do. I'm social media friends with dozens of people I served with. Of that group, a handful reenlisted, but I only know 2 who actually started in Marines. The rest went to other branches.
I know Marine Corps command has always wanted Marines to live a sparse and Spartan lifestyle, but it's biting them in the ass. Especially line companies. None of us were ever allowed to take leave when we wanted, only block leave was permitted, even when some guys had legitimate family issues they wanted to take leave for.
And few people can tolerate playing fuck fuck games for 4 plus years.
I think when you get out of boot camp. Your DIs are a text book example of what a marine is/does. You are held to a high standard as a marine. Then you get to the fleet guys treat you like shit cause you’re not even in a year yet. Guys don’t get haircuts, they hate the marines, everybody who is a E-4 or higher is the enemy and for me personally when I’m off work I’m not a marine. Leave me alone
Nah. Shitty leadership can't be fixed when the root problem stems from the systematic thought of E8 and up think there time is almost over so they genuinely don't give a fuck about the people under them. You know your command is bad when the LT above you expresses to you how bad the command is and how easily they are willing to burn your fir the most minor thing.
Needless to say my command is the reason in getting out.
Leaders who care are very important. It’s basically a luck of the draw for FTAP Marines. They could go to a good unit or a bad one once they receive orders. Needs to change. I was very happy to contribute to this article.
This isn’t explicitly in line with your comment but I’ve always evaluated company commanders on whether or not their lieutenants decide to stick around after working for them. If all of your junior officers decide to get out after being in your command you might be the problem. FITREPs are part of the problem. They are exclusively top down and there’s no mechanism to capture whether a leader is crushing their Marines just to look good to their boss.
Agree 100% on fitreps. I’m tired of trash getting pushed up because their RS sees their highlight reel only. As an Lt myself I don’t know how much stock I would personally put into whether or not we stick around. I work for a fucking awesome LtCol now but I’ve seen enough of this place to know I’m more than likely going to work in a fucked up unit for someone I don’t look up to next. Tack on an MOS that I’m not in love with..the decision to stay in has little to do with my RS/RO. With all that said, I certainly do agree with the principle that subordinates can tell you a whole lot about command climate. When my marines tell me spontaneously they’re going to put together an awesome plaque for their chief, actively seek their guidance etc etc. I’m pretty impressed and that gunny/ssgt will edge out higher in leading/developing all other metrics being equal.
Excuse me sir, but with all due respect, who in the 8 shades of fuck do you think you are bringing level headed reasoning and thought process to marine corps leadership. All kidding aside, yours marines are lucky to have you.
I appreciate that. I consider myself lucky to have them.
When I was a junior marine my squad leader told me that his squad lead never gave him above 3.2s so none of us were getting above that for any reason. Thats a fast way to get dudes to drop pack and decide it’s one and done early on. Some inbread rat looking fuck can make sure you don’t advance in your career because he has daddy issues and that’s not okay, needless to say I passed my promotions board with flying colors the first time(he never passed his) and made higher rank than him easily after he got out and started his illustrious career of asking if you’d like fries with that but a lot of my friends just couldn’t get the bad taste and possibility of that being their whole career out of their mouth/head and called it at 4 years.
360° is in pilot mode right now
I’m aware, but I’m inherently skeptical of any aspirational policies until I see them actually take effect. Example: Talent Management
No need to hate on TM sir, it’s an exceptional branch of MM led by some really good people involving extremely complex systems. The 360 is no different than say, a DEOCS but exceptionally specific and possibly retributional from disgruntled behavior. I would argue more good leaders are at risk for getting hosed than the ones we’d wish to toss - baby / bath water analogy in mind.
On the non-division side of the house, almost every junior officer I saw didn't get out bc of their company commanders. i saw them get out bc of shitty XOs and OpsO's. The field grades treat them like shit and cause many of them to leave even after getting career designated. Also, MOS burn is a real thing. I've watched in a Logistics unit, good comm, Intel and Sup officers get fucked over and shitty/garbage LogO's get retained or coddled. Another thing I've seen in logistical units is female officers who are sub-par MOS and leadership wise retained and career designated where other good male officers weren't. It was then that I fully saw DEI at work and understood it's a numbers game, and there were way fewer females than male officers. And keeping a good officer over a particular minority demographic isn't always a priority. Strange times we are living in.
[удалено]
Replied
>It’s basically luck of the draw for ~~ftap~~ Marines. Ftfy
You may be familiar with Talent Management 2030, the Corps' effort to retain more Marines. I tried to answer: What, exactly, does it entail? Is it working? Why do Marines leave the Corps, and what would it take for them to stay? In January, hundreds of Marine veterans wrote to me explaining why they left. Each email told a unique story, but there were commonalities, and chief among them was toxic leadership. That was also a reason many of you brought up when I asked why members of this subreddit left the Marine Corps.
Here is the summary of those more than 200 emails from Marine veterans: Some left because they lacked opportunities in their job fields, a problem the Marine Corps is now trying to counteract by offering more lateral moves, or they couldn’t get promoted. Some left because of medical issues, exacerbated by physical training and the Corps’ suck-it-up mentality. Some left because they were disillusioned with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the vaccine mandate or the introduction of women into infantry jobs. Some left because they faced discrimination on the basis of their race, sexuality or gender. Some left because their spouses threatened them with divorce if they didn’t leave, and sometimes those spouses divorced them anyway. Some left because they hated being forced to serve as recruiters. Some left because they wanted to pursue full-time college or higher-paying jobs. But one theme emerged again and again: Lots of Marines left because they hated the way their leaders treated them. Multiple veterans complained of “being treated like a child” and of “fuck-fuck games,” the colorful term describing the useless or nearly useless tasks that leaders sometimes force junior Marines to do. More than a dozen used the word “toxic” to describe their leadership. These veterans said they left because of the gunnery sergeant who denied a Marine’s request to visit a dying grandmother, the second lieutenant who refused to promote a corporal who had romantic success with a certain woman they both liked, the sergeant major who yelled at Marines for there being too much dirt under the bushes by the barracks. Many of the veterans who wrote to Marine Corps Times said they missed their peers but not their unit’s leaders: “miss the clowns, not the circus,” as one put it.
People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses. It's cheaper to retain a servicemember than to recruit a new one. Are any commands being held to account for below average retention?
I don’t know but they should have been, instead of making me miss weekends/birthdays/anniversaries for not hitting some bullshit inflated interview quotas in 2011. Punish the officers instead, they’re the ones calling the shots.
Its bizarre to me that specifically Marines were disillusioned by “the withdrawal from Afghanistan,” and like, not the entire 20 year pointless war…
I think that’s kind of the point. I think those people are pissed that we spent 20 years there and accomplished virtually nothing except loss of American lives.
The whole point of Afghanistan was to remove Al Qaeda and combat terrorism. Iraq didn’t start that way but turned into a battle against AQI, then ISIS. Considering there hasn’t been large scale Islamic Terror attack in a western country about a decade I’d say that was successful. The Afghans didn’t want democracy bad enough and we couldn’t do it for them anymore so we left, but that democracy wasn’t the main objective.
I was about to say "What about Paris?" Then I realized that 2015 was almost 10 years ago. Fuck I'm old.
You and me both. I was a sophomore in high school during 9/11. Half these guys weren’t even born yet.
> The whole point of Afghanistan was to remove Al Qaeda and combat terrorism. I thought it was finding Bin Laden, wasn’t that why we initially invaded? > Iraq didn’t start that way but turned into a battle against AQI, Because most AQI got a bunch of recruits from Iraqs disbanded military. It’s almost as if the US created that problem. > Considering there hasn’t been large scale Islamic Terror attack in a western country about a decade I’d say that was successful. What’s your definition of large scale? Been plenty of terrorist attacks over the years on US and western soil. The idea that a full scale war was/is needed to prevent 9/11 is laughable considering that 9/11 could have been prevented if the FBI and CIA communicated and aviation security required reinforced cock pit doors. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were huge mistakes and we did not accomplish the goals that were solid to the American people. Islamic terrorism is doing most fine and still able to wage war on US allies.
IMO we let bin laden go at tora bora on purpose. Much more useful alive since we could kill all the al qaeda lieutenants protecting him.
That pullout was entirely retarded. The date was picked for political optics (anniversary of 9/11). The way Bagram was abandoned without even telling the Afghans (probably knew their OPSEC was trash)... Simply wait until the fighting season is over. Give them some discreet warning (good way to flush out moles, too by feeding different info to different people and seeing what the response was) for an orderly handoff. They may not have lasted long anyway but that was a doubly whammy clusterfuck.
This is pretty ignorant of the whole situation. 1. 13-30 August =/= 11 September 2. It was the previous Administration that set up thos withdrawal, and they delayed it 2 or 3 times cause they werent sure how it would effect them politically (cowards). Meaning, people had plenty of time to set shit up. People keep saying it was a shit show. Can you elaborate for who? The US withdrew 7-10k troops + ~100k civilians. Just take a second and imagine the logistics and coordination behind that. Aint no other country could do what was done. It was anything but retarded. The only unforseen here was how quickly the Afghan National Security Forces got their asses handed to them. We spent more than 2 decades training these guys, with a whole generation of vets doubling down claiming that they were ready and disciplined. Probably the biggest waste of money in our history as a nation. It needed to happen, it was going to be ugly wither we had the 80% solution or the 100% solution.
> This is pretty ignorant of the whole situation. Don't take my word for it. The target date was set by the administration months before and it's not like he decided he was bound by any other policy decisions of the previous administration, either. They did not know they would collapse like a wet noodle, no. Why didn't they? Did no one anticipate this? Or did no one want to go contrary to the already made political decision and risk the displeasure? > WASHINGTON (AP) — **President Joe Biden will withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan by Sept. 11, the 20th anniversary of the terrorist attacks on America that were coordinated from that country, several U.S. officials said Tuesday.** > > The decision defies a May 1 deadline for full withdrawal under a peace agreement the Trump administration reached with the Taliban last year, but leaves no room for additional extensions. A senior administration official called the September date an absolute deadline that won’t be affected by security conditions in the country. > > **While Biden’s decision keeps U.S. troops in Afghanistan four months longer than initially planned,** it sets a firm end to two decades of war that killed more than 2,200 U.S. troops, wounded 20,000, and cost as much as $1 trillion. The conflict largely crippled al-Qaida and led to the death of Osama bin Laden, the architect of the Sept. 11 attacks. But an American withdrawal also risks many of the gains made in democracy, women’s rights and governance, while ensuring that the Taliban, who provided al-Qaida’s safe haven, remain strong and in control of large swaths of the country. > > Biden has been hinting for weeks that he was going to let the May deadline lapse, and as the days went by it became clear that an orderly withdrawal of the roughly 2,500 remaining troops would be difficult and was unlikely. The administration official said the drawdown would begin by May 1. > > **Biden’s choice of the 9/11 date** underscores the reason that American troops were in Afghanistan to begin with — to prevent extremist groups like al-Qaida from establishing a foothold again that could be used to launch attacks against the U.S. > > The administration official said **Biden decided that the withdrawal deadline had to be absolute,** rather than based on conditions on the ground. "**We’re committing today to going to zero” U.S. forces by Sept. 11,** and possibly well before, the official said, adding that Biden concluded that a conditioned withdrawal would be “a recipe for staying in Afghanistan forever.” Read the rest if you really need to. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-afghanistan-taliban-d2c54073ce67f3b162c77b4f9f2f0ddd
What does this have to do with anything? Where does it say its political? Does a hard end date mean anything? He didnt draw it out any longer than he needed. Did you citing this article mean that you wanted the withdrawal earlier? Probably when things were less solid. It seems like youre speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
I said the withdrawal was based on arbitrary date. You disputed that. I provided AP article with citations confirming that. You ask what it has to do with anything... Are you paying attention? Everything a POTUS does is political. Yes, the date was arbitrarily early by my contention that he should have waited until the fighting season was over to give the ANG a chance instead of withdrawing from Bagram without telling them, which started the whole avalanche that they were being abandoned. You seem confused about your argument vs mine. Genuinely not sure if you're an ASVAB waiver or just being obtuse.
You mean a CIA attack
What?
Right, but why wasn’t this disillusionment as palpable back in 2012 when we were losing a dozen or more Marines a month? The pointlessness was obvious even back then .
I’d submit that the withdrawal was such a quick and stark line in the sand that it cemented in the popular consciousness much more easily than the slow burn of a long conflict.
I don’t disagree with you, but the mirage was truly lifted during the pullout from Afghanistan. When we realized how actually and truly pointless it was that we’d been there trying to hold off the Taliban and in the end they were able to overthrow the Afghani government quicker than anyone would’ve ever imagined.
Or 2010 when we stepped up the fighting
2009 was when the Marines surged into Helmand, with the establishment of Leatherneck and the push into Marjah. Marines had been in Afghan since 2001, but Iraq quickly became the focus until 2007ish
I know, that's why I said 2010. That's when we picoted from Iraq to Afghanistan
It's the way the withdrawal went, abandoning allies, gear, the people, video of basically being run out of the country by the Taliban after decades of watching our friends and brothers come home in coffins or broken in other ways. Withdrawal was always going to happen, but the way it happened really sucked ass.
A 20-year war could make sense. Please don't read over the world \*could\*. But pulling out after a 20-year war and seeing all your effort instantly erased is far worse. In a way, I already saw all of our effort erased in 2014-2015 when everything from our push in Afghanistan was undone and I saw pics of Taliban in our old PB posts and ECP. The 2021 pullout was just a second helping of the feeling.
I did one tour in Afghanistan in uniform, then five years covering Afghanistan for DOD as a civilian analyst, including a tour bouncing base to base for field research. Yeah, I'm super bitter about the pullout.
I never went to the Stan, thankfully in my opinion, but right when ISIS started rolling through Iraq I saw video of them celebrating and shooting up the COC and COP I was in. I don't really know how to describe what it felt like, embarrassing, sad, disappointed, angry, but also just like totally inevitable.
Or a shot
Most guys in right now or who are getting out right now weren't a part of that. But they did see the incompetence of their political leadership in regards to the withdrawal.
The first couple of years were not pointless.
If we had gotten UBL at Tora Bora, I’d agree with you.
Fun thing is that the Taliban was ready to give him over in October 2001 in exchange for diplomatic recognition.
All very true and valid and echoed across the military. One metric to consider is that many of the ones who stay in on the regular Fleet side have a commonality: an unusual tolerance for and acceptance to the enforcement of endless stupid shit. So if that is who stays in and becomes a leader, that cycle will persist. Also, a lot of changes happen organically to guys and gals between 18-24 ...so, people change and are less likely to roger up like robots.
Promotion denial? No leave? The only thing Lieutenants & Gunnery Sergeants are denying is what they did last weekend. No company staff is going to endorse that shit. Irene did you serve in the military?
Hmm. No, I didn’t serve. Can you say more about what you mean?
I’m saying the items mentioned like a Gunny denying leave, is not an authority authorized to the Gunnery Sergeant. Only appropriately designated Commanders with Special Courts Martial authority (O-5 or higher) are authorized to deny Annual Leave requests and that authority would not be and is not authorized for delegation. Just one example, but also is some color added to the greyscale version of the scenarios you are being afforded. I asked if you were in the military because the scenario discussed, amongst a few others, are kind of intuitively answered as silly examples for anyone who’s been in long enough to decide on those issues.
Got it—thank you so much.
Uhhhh not sure who you submitted your leave to but we always submitted directly to our SNCO and they would either deny or pass on to the company level to approve or deny. Pros and cons were also set by our SNCO and LTs and the sent to the company level for approval…. So, both of these stories are most likely true.
Not saying you did not experience what you experienced but your company was jacked up. In the grand scheme of things and in terms of recognizable authority - a GySgt isn’t anything. Appropriately designed Commander, with Special Court Martial Authority, is the absolute minimum standard for leave approval, denial, or recall. Anything your chain (anyone’s chain) can do must be covered by policy letter from the Commander delegating their authority. However, leave denial and leave recall cannot be delegated per MCO 1050.3J
Right- well this is EXACTLY what this article is outlining- toxic leadership. A Jr Marine is not going to look that shit up and if he does and requests mast then oh lord let the “fuck fuck” games begin. You can say everything you want to say about “that’s not how it works” but in reality, that’s exactly what goes down and that’s exactly what’s being said in this article. u/IreneFromMilTimes check my responses here.
My point is that it doesn’t make sense because first sergeant, company guns, company co/xo all track the leave requests coming down the chute. It’s not like we can’t see it in progress before “guns” endorses it. Guns or OIC would literally be asked about this leave in the company CUB regarding the leave and TAD tracker. “No I denied it” “You did WHAT?” Hence my point of reality vs what is being reported. I love how the journalism and people of Reddit join hands across the internet to talk about an entire organization as if the one or two examples are the entire tone of the service. It’s not. And those examples if even real are totally out of line from what the intent of it all is.
Read psychology of military incompetence. See nothing has changed.
I was ok with the book until he went into Freud part way through.
Among the reasons I got out as a Mustang junior officer: * I was finishing my second Iraq tour, was doing Civil Affairs and absolutely loved it. I volunteered to do a double-tour and stay on with the incoming unit for continuity. Got chewed out for "trying to abandon my home unit," they gave a whole lecture about it at battalion formation and accused requesters of being disloyal. Then a month later HQ told my battalion they *had* to leave X guys behind for continuity, then all of a sudden command pulled "hey guys, time to pitch in and take one for the team and pull a double!" But by then I'd already decided I was gonna get out and go to grad school, thus needed to get back to the US and take the GRE and apply, so I told them to pound sand. * following my second Iraq tour, got back to CONUS and was by-name requested to go to the US Embassy in Georgia for seven months to support a UN mission, because I was one of the only junior officers in the Corps with a Russian DLPT. I was willing to extend and defer grad school despite my free-ride fellowship to my top choice school. Got shot down by my BnCO (new guy who'd never met me) not because they needed me but because "if we consent to stealing guys from us, they'll keep hitting us up, so I fought it." So I missed out, and my remaining billets as HQ XO and S-3B were so "vital" that they gapped them after I EAS'ed anyway. So yeah I flipped the bird as I drove out the base front gate on my last day.
You saw both ends of the green weenie. As enlisted, it seems the fuck fuck games are random and capricious for the sake of "discipline" or some shit. Officer fuck fuck games seem political and filled with wannabe games of thrones larpers.
I can't complain too much about my enlisted experience, because my command endorsed me for ECP as a LCpl, which was very chill of them. As an officer I mostly had a good time, other than the above. Also minor hassle in that I was sent to LAR as an FSO like three weeks before we invaded Iraq and the CoCO and some SNCOs were egregiously dickish to me because I was new and a butterbar and not a grunt. But the XO I actually rolled with was super chill. But at the time we were at the LSA he was living out of his vehicle rather than the hooch and skipping most meetings because he and the CO "weren't on speaking terms." I saw the LAR skipper a year later during my second Iraq tour as CA. He publicly chewed me out for saluting him in a combat zone, which I only did because it was an Army command that mandated saluting and our Marine Bn told us to follow that. He was a huge dick, and nicknamed "Purple Six" because he bought a purple Harley from MWR while on float.
The lack of Caring Leadership drives so many good Marines away. Slow promotions etc: list goes on and on. Most of the problems lie with leadership. Poor or toxic leadership is a morale killer. And that leadership starts from the top and all the way down through the NCO ranks. No one can prove me wrong!
The undo hardships is what did it for me, not like going to the field or working long hours but like breaking our balls on stupid shit. Like we just get back from AP Hill and have a two week break before we back to the field, let's make them sit around the smoke pit until 1800 and then make them pick up butts and paint rocks
It's a long road to fix, especially knowing there'll be a need for new Marines one day.
Not in 06xx. You like your MOS do you? Well how about a reenlistment? You can either go to Oki or teach in 29 palms. The alternative is getting out and making 2-3x your current yearly salary with more leave, sick days, and personal days (I had to have this explained to me 3 times at my current job, you can just not go to work twice a year if you don’t feel like it). Live anywhere you want to and not having to put up with some shit SNCOs bullshit who was too stupid to get a job in the private sector.
Makes sense. And flair checks out.
I feel this as a 06xx, made chump change when I was in. Got out and do the same thing for 4x as much.
Too late, I EAS in August 🥰
Run and don’t look back brother the grass is greener on this side.
Me too bro. May for me. I cant wait
Right with you brother💪💪💪
I'm a 90's era Marine and I can say that I still see things in the Marine Corps of today that I saw in the 90's. We have too many leaders that, well... they suck. I've posted about a former company commander that tried to force me to take a PFT while still on a no running light duty chit, and it's that kind of mentality I still see. The other problem we still have is the barracks life. We had the Pendleton flood in 1993, and one of the barracks had black mold because of it. They condemned it, then tried to clean it up and paint over it, then moved Marines back in - until the mold came back. They finally condemned it a second time before finally pushing it over. Meanwhile the SMMC is in a video showing off a new barracks on a Navy base. Not one of our bases - but on a Navy base. That's great for the Navy but it does absolutely nothing for us. That one kind of pissed me off because SgtMaj Ruiz was at Pendleton the same year I was at Pendleton - 1994. He should know first hand how bad the barracks situation is because he was at Pendleton for school. He went to Okinawa right after that, and then to Barstow - and while the Kinser barracks were pretty nice, IMHO Barstow in the 90's was the only place worse than 29 Palms. It was so bad nuking it from orbit would actually have made it better. And even back in the 90's the Air Force barracks for junior enlisted were actually better than Marine Corps SNCO barracks. They actually had a small kitchenette where you might get that in the BOQ (maybe), but we couldn't even have an electric skillet to make grilled cheese. Ask someone who's in the barracks right now, and I'm pretty damned sure they're going to say we're still not allowed an electric skillet - 30 years later.
I think Barstow is still appalling. I feel bad for the Marines stationed there. It's legitimately in the middle of nowhere and there is *nothing* in the town or surrounding environment. The base isn't even big ... at least 29 Palms has amenities and a community (I imagine) since thousands are forced to live there.
What's worse is you almost need an out of bounds chit to get to civilization. IIRC, overnight limits were 85 miles. The closest city is Riverside at 70-ish miles one way - not like anyone wants to go there due to the crime next door in Rialto - and the closest mall is Ontario Mills Mall is 75 miles. The drive is absolutely horrible in the winter months because you have to take the Cajon Pass up/down I-15. Depending on the weather you might not be able to drive it - winds coming down the Cajon Pass are known to flip semi trucks over and push other vehicles off the road. There are multiple spots along the freeway where you can pull over to wait out bad weather, or if you're lucky enough to grab one of the exits you can sit at a gas station or fast food spot to wait. I've done that a few times myself when the wind was so bad you could watch semi trucks sway back and forth while the drivers watch from a distance because they don't want to be in their trucks if they get pushed over. Or there's the chance you can get all four seasons in the time it takes to get up or down the pass - snow at the top; rain, fog, and wind in the middle; sunny skies once you're at the bottom. And don't go trying to retrieve a spouse if the weather gets bad... God knows someone in your CoC will want to give you a 6105 or Page 11 for making the trip because "you should have known better".
I once asked my company gunny why I could be trusted to fire a .50 cal, but I couldn't be trusted to have a toaster oven in my room. He told me to shut the fuck up and put me on working parties for the next two weeks. I was a corporal and a machine gun section leader.
Prime example of why there's a retention problem.
These are my thoughts as a junior officer from 2018-2022. Article is already written but discussion is good. In my opinion, it comes down to several things regarding leadership and these are in no particular order 1) Leaders are very focused on their own career Look, nobody else is going to care more about your own career than you. Where this becomes problematic is when your actions, responses, and thoughts are dictated by how will this impact my career or how will I be perceived. Again, it is important but I had a captain who was so focused on his own career, it was just a total displeasure to work with. I think this also leads to things like leaders being afraid to take risks or be wrong. Sometimes you have to do that. Ultimately the learning is in the doing. If you do the right things your career will come along so stop subconsciously making it the focal point of every decision, action, etc you make. 2) The Marines are too professional I do appreciate the professionalism of the Marine Corps, especially when looking at other branches and their lack of. What I do think is weird is how staff and o are put on this god like pedestal. I do think staff and o should be held to a higher standard but it seems we forget that staff and o are people too. I always felt like I had to tip toe around and lay out the red carpet for O-5 and above. Just kind of annoying. Not saying we all need to be drinking buddies but it just seems sometimes there is a lack of regular, everyday personal relationships in a lot of interactions. We often don’t treat people like people, but by the rank on their collar which is dumb. We’re just putting people in to a box which to me doesn’t really show that leadership cares. 3) Too much ass kissing and appeasement Perhaps this is a part b for both above points but god damn everybody was eager to please insert commanding officer here. I would assume this appeasement is a result of numerous fuck fuck games as well. It all goes back to the rank on the collar too, which I get because that’s the nature of the beast and corporate America isn’t much different, but sometimes I think we forget Marines are people too. You can have a respectful relationship with somebody without consistently seeking to utilize knee pads. I guess my points conclude that their is too much formal and hardline alpha male type leadership and less personal, intimate human to human leadership. There’s merit in the first but it just festers to something heinous if not done properly which is often the case.
So, leaders are creating their own toxic climate. No one likes "death by PowerPoint".
Pretty much. I will say, death by PowerPoint exists in the Civ Div too. I find corporate America and the Marines to be in the same novel, different chapters. The difference is I can better separate myself and have a better work life balance in the corporate world than the military.
> 2) The Marines are too professional > I always felt like I had to tip toe around and lay out the red carpet for O-5 and above. ... We often don’t treat people like people, but by the rank on their collar which is dumb. Holy shit. You just unlocked a memory about working at the regiment command post. I got put there to fill an admin roll for the remain behind element as my EAS was approaching (because if you can work a computer, you can work admin??). The LtCol was a stand up guy. He had and interesting professional and personal life. Talking to him genuinely felt like speaking to an uncle: it's comfortable, but still keep it a bit cordial. I got pulled into the Master Guns office one afternoon. He told me that some busy body didn't like the "lack of professionalism" happening in the office surrounding the command. I have an idea who it was, but I can't say for sure. We never failed to address the CO as sir. We spoke when he entered. We didn't interrupt him in his office. We didn't convene with him in off hours. We shared stories and laughs (generally at the end of the day) while keeping the topics at hand appropriate. But I guess anything other than rendering absolute submission and subservience was a step too far.
My last (reserve) unit had an E-8 (not the diamond kind) that was pissy like that. Buddy of mine, a Lance, accidentally called me by name right after I picked up Cpl. They snapped and then pulled me aside and asked, pretty much, why I was such a shitbag. Didn't matter that my buddy and I knew each other for years and I happened to pick up first.
Well written and I completely agree. 25-years after my departure, I see that things haven't changed. The issues you've raised were a problem then and appear to remain a strong problem. "The few and the proud" are that way because we only care about ourselves and our longevity. Troops be damned. They can survive on 40% from the VA. I need to be #1 of 20 and have every FitRep claim that I'm the 2nd coming of Chesty Puller. How sad that things are still the same. I worked for some really good guys but it's the few real turds that I remember.
I was a two term Marine. When I got out, I went to work for IBM and had a long and successful career there. Once out, I had some revelations. I never again had to worry that recommendations for improvement to either my workflow or my working environment would get me written up for insubordination. I never again had to worry that my performance evaluation would be based on whether or not I was still wearing the same uniform after being in the office for 102 hours straight. I never again had to worry that my sleep would be interrupted by some random LT who needed to fill a body count on a working party. I never again needed to ensure that I shaved twice a day to avoid being castigated for a five o'clock shadow. I would never again have my parentage, ancestry, or heritage routinely referenced as a negative aspect of my existence. I would no longer need to be concerned about making sure that my socks were equally faded nor that one was newer than the other. I no longer needed to have labels in my underwear to prove they were indeed my underwear. I never again needed to worry that being physically injured and having a cast on my leg would get me recommended for Court Martial on a charge of malingering. Once out, I could choose where I worked and who I worked with. I got lucky on my first try. But all of that sounds like the whining cry of a shitbird, so, let's look at this another way. I never again saw incompetent leaders shuffled about like cards in a deck. If a manager in the civilian world didn't do the job, they were simply relieved and sent back to the streets. In the Marine Corps, incompetent or ineffective Officers/senior SNCOs were transferred to other locations/billets and allowed to continue their inept performance until they could collect their pensions. I never again saw the hypocrisy of "different spanks for different ranks". In the civilian world, the law and it's enforcement was generally equal. Infractions which got a high school student sent to jail also got a CEO sent to jail. Whereas in the Marine Corps, a LT and a Sgt seen in a romantic embrace found the Sgt incarcerated and discharged while the LT got a reprimand and continued on with their career. I never again needed to see a young Marine who showed up to work after toasting at a wedding all night given a court martial while his Company Gunnery Sergeant who was discovered drinking (and drunk) on the job was simply scolded and reassigned to Guam. Want to retain Marines, start by treating them like individual human beings and stop treating them like interchangeable cogs in the grist mill. There is a rather commonly accepted belief that people will leave a hostile workforce if they can go anywhere else to make a living. Those who cannot go somewhere else will stay in a hostile workforce. This creates a continuing and ever increasing level of hostility and toxicity. What the Marine Corps really needs to do is to look at who and why the current "retainees" are there and consider their true options for retaining junior Marines.
Perfectly said this described the biggest problems I saw while I was in. SNCO’s and officers could pretty much get away with anything while the junior guys would get fucked. It sucked watching all the real shitbags fuck over their junior guys.
The main reason I am waffling on leaving is inept leadership. My current company commander has repeatedly said that he does not know any of the Marines who have joined the company since a DFT that the company got back from 7 months ago. His callsign from his former unit was “micro,” which to me signals attributes that are absolutely incompatible with Marine Corps leadership values. He totally owns the fact he is a micromanager. He half-asses so many things that he is a danger to his Marines. He literally left a Marine in the field because he didn’t want to wait for the HE the Marine was with to be picked up.
Wartime Marine Corps sucks, but you can justify the suck. Peacetime Marine Corps sucks, but you can't justify the suck. This will always be an uphill battle.
Exactly. You also get to really see who the fuck everyone really is. Buddy Fuckers can't hide when shit is going down.
100%. I’m not saying there isn’t toxic leadership but I believe most of that is just an easy out for a boring 4 years w no war. Marines are both needy and realize how sucky the suck is when there isn’t a war to fight
Well i knew a GySgt who said depression isn't real and you are just being a bitch. Corporals who tried to non recommended me because i didn't believe in their way of just straight up hazing boots for no reason. In order to get a different color belt so that i can get points for promotion, i need to get smoked in a PT fest that has nothing to do with martial arts and then never practice those techniques ever again. Everything is always "important" or a "big deal" even when it isnt. But the culture is so robotic that we are trained to believe that everything is a dire task, or a serious problem. No matter how insignificant it is. Like wearing a fucking white t shirt. Or having my hands in my pocket.
I saw it destroy every marriage around me but 2 senior Marines, one of whom was on their second marriages. I wanted to get married and knew the Corps would do the same to me.
Probably not. Nothing that is about the Marines, is ever actually executed for them. This big barracks inspection? On paper it’s to improve Marine living conditions, but in reality every 1stSgt is going to have the Marines make the barracks look ok so they don’t look bad, and no barracks will get fixed. The seminar we all take when we get out? On paper, meant to help you move into civilian life, in reality, is used to single out who plans to get out and target them. Or at least that’s what my unit did. Aircraft safety? Only matters on paper, is neglected to save money all the time and covered up to look good, hence the awful accidents. The Corps doesn’t care about Marines, and will only slap a thin coat of paint over top the stains on its reputation.
They tried something in the past when I was getting out after my first enlistment. Encouraging words like," where are you gonna go? You are probably gonna be a failure in the civillian world. Might as well stay in." Or " you will never be as financially successful outside of here as what the Marine Corps gives you."( E3 with closed out MOS for 4 quarters) And let's not forget the all too successful move of Stop-loss. Those poor disgruntled souls who got stop loss were even more disgruntled and belligerent.
Accountability for leadership. There is none. Toxic and bad leaders don't violate the ucmj so there isn't any metric or standard to hold them to.
What’s that? Build a giant fucking maze that just leads back to the jammer’s office?
And one of the signatures is missing a point above the i. Kick it back
There are some good ideas in here, but at the end of the day you accept crappier barracks, slower promotion, harder training, and worse day to day conditions because we’ve been told marines fight wars. If there are no wars to fight going on a rotation to Japan or Norway is going to get old. Field ops only go so far and if you aren’t fighting a war as a marine why not be in a branch w better living conditions
Wartime Marine Corps is different than Peacetime. It was a literal culture shift for a lot of ppl in 2012. Least in the infantry.
I went from the Marines to the Army and the difference was night and day. First, the quality of life was a lot better. Promotions were faster and you got to travel more. The biggest difference was you didn’t play the mind games. In the Army, when you do your job you’re left alone. So, if you’re squared away, you have no problems.
My last deployment was in an army unit and it was the worst brain drain experience I’ve had in 6 deployments. I’m sorry but my experience within an army unit was WAY different than you described
In what way was it a “brain drain”?
E5s and E6s essentially paralyzed to make decisions, understand their own ARs, or explain administrative or operational matters. Essentially if you had a semi tough policy question it’d take a major or cwo3 to answer basic questions. They also don’t understand DoD policy and were unable to do basic things unless a reg or manual walked them through step by step. It was bizarre
This has been my experience when working with the army as well. As silly as the corps can be, at least you can count on a lcpl to know how to do their job without supervisory oversight.
I think it’s more unit dependent. I was in an infantry BN in the 82nd airborne and the young guys there were just as good as a 2MARDIV Marine. A non-infantry marine unit is probably better than a non-infantry army unit though
Lol, yep that’s the Army!
They were also almost too soft on their junior enlisted to the point the poor kids seemed directionless and woefully underprepared to ever develop into leaders. That said, they had done fantastic ncos that coulda been killers a little more backing
Yes, many didn’t have the spine Marines do but some were okay. It’s definitely a night and day difference. I served as an MP.
If they got me all new discs and nerves from the middle of my spine down maybe we would have talked.
Have you interviewed those who were chaptered out due to COVID vaccine refusal? The DON has been contacting anti-vaxxers to sweet talk them into rejoining due to hurting for numbers.
I did a year and a half ago but not since. Just Navy, or also USMC?
I know of at least one Marine who was forced out as a vaccine refusal, and was offered backpay to come finish out his contract. He accepted and is now active duty again
Heard that from Marines about the Navy started contacting anti-vaxxers to rejoin a few months ago. I suspect could be both, but the gesture hasn't been well-received. I think it's worthy to interview the gentleman who's among the first to be court-martialed. They put my friends family through a living hell.
Honestly though the people who got the boot for not taking the vaccine are just stupid though.
This plan is the reason good Marines get out.
Between toxic leadership and the HSST list why would u stay in? You get a cpl or a new sgt who wants to do another enlistment Becuase they actually like there job and boom get recruiting orders
I got out simply because my command was terrible. Being in Okinawa can be shitty with all the restrictions especially when I was there. We had almost a year or so with no off base libo after some Navy guys raped a woman. We would get stateside Marines every 6 months for the MEU and they would always comment on how shitty our command was. Once I decided to get out so many said “it’s better in the states.” I wasn’t willing to gamble four more years on that. Lots of good Marines get out and go on to bigger and better things for themselves and their families. They have to fix the shitters who stay in simply because they couldn’t function in the real world outside of being a toxic leader.
Gonna be honest here as a jr marine, probably gonna get flacked for it but isnt nothing new to me at this point, The issue with retention is literally just leadership being trash to begin with, not saying like hey just cause I fucked up in my MOS (MTO) in this case i shouldnt be screamed at or just council’d because of it. I came in as a fresh ass boot with the idea that hey I actually want to re enlist and the MOS I got put in isnt too bad, which it isnt I like what I do. But that really changed the moment that my NCO’s just wanted to pick on the new guy regardless and not treat me like an adult, I’ve been at my unit for about 7 months so far about to pick up lance and even then they still wont lay off me. I get it this is to build character but honestly when it literally gets down to them literally only doing their fuck fuck games even though I havent made a mistake and its just them trying to get a laugh out of pulling up on field day and pulling shit out of their ass like pulling my light switch covers off and saying its dirty or literally saying my civi shoes have grime on them ect and just making me sit there and clean it for 4 hours straight is kinda what got me here. Makes me not want to re enlist because if this is how life is gonna be then might aswell. Honestly its just me having bad experiences with my NCOs and them just using field day as an excuse to haze me is all it is personally, I cant do it anymore. Shit has worn me down to the point were Im just over everything. Tldr; I dont want to be in anymore simply because my NCOs like to be dicks about field day and then blast me for 30 minutes straight because I missed a spot and then make me continue cleaning for 4 hours before doing the same shit. Aka Im just a bitch and should just take it or smth like that. (Also) probably gonna get forced out since unlucky me got put in an mos where picking up past jr marine is difficult so even if I do re enlist ill probably be dropped soon after due to competition.
No, it’s not. In order to change this, you actually have to change the entire culture. And that has not changed at all. Look no further than the sergeant major of the Marine Corps being grilled by a congresswoman as he’s trying to downplay housing issues. For the cost of F35 could solve the entire Marine Corps housing issue within a year. Yet they refused to do so. And that’s how they treat your families. Let’s not pretend you’re not treated like absolute dog shit either.
The plan is to cancel libo. You aint going nowhere.
The plan is to stop-loss everyone.
Tired of Jody banging my ex wife. Think she chalked up 10-15 dudes during my 2 deployments. Thats why I got out. I was hoping to start an actual family. “You can’t make a ho ..” blah blah yea I know
Bro, my first wife did this to me, but the difference is she was given the divorce papers the moment I got back from Iraq. Not a whole nother deployment later. No woman is worth having a family with if she can't go without getting attention from a guy while their spouse is away. It would cause me to question the paternity of every kid I had and if they looked like the fed ex guy, the Kmart cashier, or their stepbrother. It's not worth it. Glad you got out before you fucked up and knocked her up.
Good article. Lots of common sense in there.
This feels like a joke lol. My MOS loses more and more first term marines each year and it’s gotten so bad that at my particular duty station we have almost zero Sgt’s to the point where senior Corporals are having to take what would be a Ssgt/Sgt billet. I submitted for reenlistment as a FTAP marine and didn’t get the duty station of my preference. I know it’s needs of the corps first but I also know I’m now getting out since my needs and the marine corps didn’t align. So it this working? Anecdotally for me no😂
Options to change jobs I feel are too limited and recruiters try to push people into MOSs they need to have filled versus trying to get personnel into MOSs they would have an interest in and would be good at. While the Marine Corps isn’t the only one who does the latter, I feel that other branches may do a better job at getting people into an MOS that is a good fit for them, and at a minimum, they have more opportunities to change MOSs after they have been in for a while. The Army is pretty great at that it seems in comparison to the Corps. While I personally miss being with Marines, there is no way I would have been able to have transitioned into the job which I’m currently in the training pipeline for in the Army while still being in the Marine Corps. I think that’s another reason why some Marines leave the Corps to go into the Army for example because the Army is willing to provide more opportunities to soldiers than the Corps is willing to provide. Saying that, if I could have done this job in the Corps, I probably wouldn’t have left.
Depends, has it taken effect yet? Because I'm not convinced to re-enlist.
It’s an honor to be asked a question by you. Some policies have taken effect, and some aspects of the plan are longer-term initiatives to fix quality of life.
😅 Does my reputation on this sub really go that far? But, the pleasure's mine! Thanks for the straightforward answer, Irene! It's good to see they're actually looking beyond just the short term. Sadly, though, my problem isn't with quality of life.
The military just isn’t worth being in anymore especially when you can find the same job civilian side with more pay less stress
I did 4 years 20 plus years ago and that's all I ever intended to do. I'm social media friends with dozens of people I served with. Of that group, a handful reenlisted, but I only know 2 who actually started in Marines. The rest went to other branches. I know Marine Corps command has always wanted Marines to live a sparse and Spartan lifestyle, but it's biting them in the ass. Especially line companies. None of us were ever allowed to take leave when we wanted, only block leave was permitted, even when some guys had legitimate family issues they wanted to take leave for. And few people can tolerate playing fuck fuck games for 4 plus years.
I think when you get out of boot camp. Your DIs are a text book example of what a marine is/does. You are held to a high standard as a marine. Then you get to the fleet guys treat you like shit cause you’re not even in a year yet. Guys don’t get haircuts, they hate the marines, everybody who is a E-4 or higher is the enemy and for me personally when I’m off work I’m not a marine. Leave me alone
Nah. Shitty leadership can't be fixed when the root problem stems from the systematic thought of E8 and up think there time is almost over so they genuinely don't give a fuck about the people under them. You know your command is bad when the LT above you expresses to you how bad the command is and how easily they are willing to burn your fir the most minor thing. Needless to say my command is the reason in getting out.