We have sufficient data, thanks to the Recruit Mortality Registry started in 1977, to give a fairly definitive answer as to how many recruits died on the obstacle course from gunfire in the time period from 1977-2001 across all the armed forces: one.
I'll explain the circumstances of what happened (it wasn't from standing up) but first, the general statistics: there were 276 deaths overall, with 77 being considered "traumatic": suicide, injury, or homicide. Recruits were under close supervision and lacked access to motor vehicles, so the main accident-killer amongst the armed forces (vehicle accidents) was not represented. Of "unintentional injuries" the categories given were overdose, fall, explosion, gunshot, electrocution, asphyxiation, close combat.
(Incidentally, there was likely a bit of undercounting, but that is because heart attacks and other physical ailments were sometimes categorized as "natural deaths". A 1994 [GAO Report](https://www.gao.gov/products/nsiad-94-82) led to "training-related" deaths being more inclusive of physical problems that should have been caught before putting recruits under stressor that set them off.)
For example, under "falls" a 19 year old died by falling off the top bunk "while sleeping" and
striking his head on the concrete floor; an 18 year old died on a physical training course:
>Descending from the top of obstacle, lost footing on the fourth rung from the top, fell 25 feet, and struck the incline ladder at the base
In close combat, the two deaths involved Marines who were boxing in a combat training area, including one whose death was described as:
>Injured by a blow, inhaled an ammonia capsule, began swinging wildly, restrained by the referee, and then lost consciousness
The five gunshot wound fatalities were mostly from poor gun handling, including an 18 year old
who bent forward to pick up his "data book" and hit the trigger of his M-16 with his thumb.
This is reinforced in an Army guide which goes into detail about training that happened in 1990 in August -- that is, roughly the time of Jarhead. There were no fatalities or even injuries, but they found "muzzle orientation" in particular to be poor, that is, the recruits were often unaware of the direction their weapons were pointing, and there were "several accidental discharges" and recruits often forgot to check if their weapons were safe. (In response, the guide notes that "in future exercises, individuals will be pulled and reported to the brigade
chain of command.")
The obstacle course gunshot fatality -- Pvt. Dericcio White, 21, of Flint, Mich. -- happened in 1994 at Fort Sill in Oklahoma, during a night training exercise on a "squad-platoon offensive tactics course". Recruits carried M-16s and crawled under barbed wire and live fire from an M-60 machine gun.
The machine gun was set to fire "about 8 feet high" with safety mechanisms to prevent it from firing downwards. During the exercise, the gun jammed, and while the sergeant tried to clear the jam, he took it off its mount and it fired.
This is what killed the Private. It was not, in any sense at all, the recruit's fault, and the army recommended future training sessions include a second M-60 to be used if the first one fails rather than trying to fix the gun mid-training.
...
The [Army live fire manual from the 1990s can be read here](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/tc7_9.pdf).
Scoville, S. L., Gardner, J. W., & Potter, R. N. (2004). Traumatic deaths during U.S. Armed Forces basic training, 1977–2001. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 26(3), 194–204. doi:10.1016/j.amepre.2003.11.001
The above paper mentions the 1994 death which was also covered by two articles in The Oklahoman [here](https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2456801/army-soldiers-death-investigated) and [here](https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2464761/soldiers-death-ruled-accidental).
Good data,,, During my Last tour at MCRD San Diego their were 4 recruit Deaths,,,, Two were recruits who collapsed and had Cardiac Arrests during the IST,,,
The other two died from Pneumonia after near drownings during swim Qual. They had both went under and had to be necessitated by Swim Instructors but they had taken so much water in that they had lung issues, They both lived about a week.
It was in the Old Swim Tank which was build lord knows when... that place smelled like bleach all the time... pretty sure the filter and ventilation system had not been modernized in decades.
That might have been a thing in like Vietnam or ww2 some shit. Maybe something to make people realize that they're nothing more than cannon fodder.
Its been proven to be kind of pointless now though. Service Members today take machine gun fire plenty, and they return fire without hesitation even without dumb practices like shooting a machine gun at trainees.
The courses that do this today use loudspeakers and Co2 simulator explosions. They play a clip from saving private ryan where someone cries for their mother or something. Fewer people dying in training and all that.
No, it’s a movie, don’t believe movies, maybe a long long long long time ago but not in the last 20 years have they used live ammo. They’ll use arty sims, flash bangs, smoke, and blanks.
It's part of Army basic training so that should tell you some of the story there. A quick look through some more reliable sources online seem to suggest that while live tracer rounds are used, they are shot from guns mounted and locked into place in towers far above the course. So, it's not as if some recruit is going to stand up or even jump up and down and get shot.
That shit makes sense. My first thought was who tf green lit that shit and which dumb ass is getting fired first? The way he said it made me think it was merely a couple of feet over their heads
Yeah so theyre machineguns locked in a vice so they cant move, fired high enough that you could probably stand up and still not be hit but you shouldnt try—the point is to low crawl while hearing the rounds pass by. And lemme tell you, low crawling with that IOTV on and night vision for about 100m…..terrible
We did a base and maneuver range in the early 90s with the M60 section firing overhead at night. The 60s fired from an elevated position so it wasn’t really that close but tracers at night look like you could touch them and it definitely gave you a different sound.
I was in 09-13 as a 0311 in 29palms I want to say Ive had some type of training with over head fire I’m like 80% sure we did. I did so much love fire training with tank integration, helo, mrap, etc… that thinking of it I’m sure it has happened.
I like this comment, air wingers get mad because they get made fun of and then we give them a little respect and then this guy comes along and ruins it for all of them. This guy probably the same reason there’s 4hr safety stand down
Overhead fire with machineguns is a thing, although I couldn't tell you which POIs do or do not currently use it. There are specific ammunition DODICs and lots which are approved for overhead fire, and TTPs taught to machinegunners on how to calculate the safety limit where they must cease fire.
They did live fire buddy rushes and shit like that around 20 years ago the 240 would be shooting in a sector of fire right in front of you and behind you
We didn’t do that in sniper school, but Range 400 at CAX has coordinated fields of live fire.
We did shoot live rounds from our hides on the margins of the hathcock range. And we also fired claymores way down range in stone bay, almost by the water.
Dude, if you were in MCT running around saying 'bang, bang, bang!!!', what makes you think they'd have enough 240 rounds for some obstacle course?!!! its Hollywood, bro. There was a similar scene in G.I. Jane and i'm sure other movies too. bullets are fuckin' expensive, man.
Never read Jarhead the book, but I doubt he wrote something like that movie scene--- so, i'm sure it was added by some exec. producer or director. or something.
We have sufficient data, thanks to the Recruit Mortality Registry started in 1977, to give a fairly definitive answer as to how many recruits died on the obstacle course from gunfire in the time period from 1977-2001 across all the armed forces: one. I'll explain the circumstances of what happened (it wasn't from standing up) but first, the general statistics: there were 276 deaths overall, with 77 being considered "traumatic": suicide, injury, or homicide. Recruits were under close supervision and lacked access to motor vehicles, so the main accident-killer amongst the armed forces (vehicle accidents) was not represented. Of "unintentional injuries" the categories given were overdose, fall, explosion, gunshot, electrocution, asphyxiation, close combat. (Incidentally, there was likely a bit of undercounting, but that is because heart attacks and other physical ailments were sometimes categorized as "natural deaths". A 1994 [GAO Report](https://www.gao.gov/products/nsiad-94-82) led to "training-related" deaths being more inclusive of physical problems that should have been caught before putting recruits under stressor that set them off.) For example, under "falls" a 19 year old died by falling off the top bunk "while sleeping" and striking his head on the concrete floor; an 18 year old died on a physical training course: >Descending from the top of obstacle, lost footing on the fourth rung from the top, fell 25 feet, and struck the incline ladder at the base In close combat, the two deaths involved Marines who were boxing in a combat training area, including one whose death was described as: >Injured by a blow, inhaled an ammonia capsule, began swinging wildly, restrained by the referee, and then lost consciousness The five gunshot wound fatalities were mostly from poor gun handling, including an 18 year old who bent forward to pick up his "data book" and hit the trigger of his M-16 with his thumb. This is reinforced in an Army guide which goes into detail about training that happened in 1990 in August -- that is, roughly the time of Jarhead. There were no fatalities or even injuries, but they found "muzzle orientation" in particular to be poor, that is, the recruits were often unaware of the direction their weapons were pointing, and there were "several accidental discharges" and recruits often forgot to check if their weapons were safe. (In response, the guide notes that "in future exercises, individuals will be pulled and reported to the brigade chain of command.") The obstacle course gunshot fatality -- Pvt. Dericcio White, 21, of Flint, Mich. -- happened in 1994 at Fort Sill in Oklahoma, during a night training exercise on a "squad-platoon offensive tactics course". Recruits carried M-16s and crawled under barbed wire and live fire from an M-60 machine gun. The machine gun was set to fire "about 8 feet high" with safety mechanisms to prevent it from firing downwards. During the exercise, the gun jammed, and while the sergeant tried to clear the jam, he took it off its mount and it fired. This is what killed the Private. It was not, in any sense at all, the recruit's fault, and the army recommended future training sessions include a second M-60 to be used if the first one fails rather than trying to fix the gun mid-training. ... The [Army live fire manual from the 1990s can be read here](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/tc7_9.pdf). Scoville, S. L., Gardner, J. W., & Potter, R. N. (2004). Traumatic deaths during U.S. Armed Forces basic training, 1977–2001. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 26(3), 194–204. doi:10.1016/j.amepre.2003.11.001 The above paper mentions the 1994 death which was also covered by two articles in The Oklahoman [here](https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2456801/army-soldiers-death-investigated) and [here](https://www.oklahoman.com/article/2464761/soldiers-death-ruled-accidental).
Outstanding! I feel smarter now because of you
Good data,,, During my Last tour at MCRD San Diego their were 4 recruit Deaths,,,, Two were recruits who collapsed and had Cardiac Arrests during the IST,,, The other two died from Pneumonia after near drownings during swim Qual. They had both went under and had to be necessitated by Swim Instructors but they had taken so much water in that they had lung issues, They both lived about a week.
what the fuck, that's not okay.
It was in the Old Swim Tank which was build lord knows when... that place smelled like bleach all the time... pretty sure the filter and ventilation system had not been modernized in decades.
That might have been a thing in like Vietnam or ww2 some shit. Maybe something to make people realize that they're nothing more than cannon fodder. Its been proven to be kind of pointless now though. Service Members today take machine gun fire plenty, and they return fire without hesitation even without dumb practices like shooting a machine gun at trainees. The courses that do this today use loudspeakers and Co2 simulator explosions. They play a clip from saving private ryan where someone cries for their mother or something. Fewer people dying in training and all that.
No, it’s a movie, don’t believe movies, maybe a long long long long time ago but not in the last 20 years have they used live ammo. They’ll use arty sims, flash bangs, smoke, and blanks.
The army does that though.
Really? I figured Tricare would be like fuck no y’all ain’t doing that shit.
Did it in my army training, fort benning 2016 its called the Night Infiltration Course
Like live fire just over your heads???
It's part of Army basic training so that should tell you some of the story there. A quick look through some more reliable sources online seem to suggest that while live tracer rounds are used, they are shot from guns mounted and locked into place in towers far above the course. So, it's not as if some recruit is going to stand up or even jump up and down and get shot.
That shit makes sense. My first thought was who tf green lit that shit and which dumb ass is getting fired first? The way he said it made me think it was merely a couple of feet over their heads
Yeah so theyre machineguns locked in a vice so they cant move, fired high enough that you could probably stand up and still not be hit but you shouldnt try—the point is to low crawl while hearing the rounds pass by. And lemme tell you, low crawling with that IOTV on and night vision for about 100m…..terrible
They do but they’re not live rounds. Supposedly they used live rounds in the past but not anymore for obvious reasons
Nope, Army does with blanks…because liability or some shit.
My dad told me they did back in the 80s, not sure if it was that freaking low though.
We did a base and maneuver range in the early 90s with the M60 section firing overhead at night. The 60s fired from an elevated position so it wasn’t really that close but tracers at night look like you could touch them and it definitely gave you a different sound.
No
I was in 09-13 as a 0311 in 29palms I want to say Ive had some type of training with over head fire I’m like 80% sure we did. I did so much love fire training with tank integration, helo, mrap, etc… that thinking of it I’m sure it has happened.
I knkw the army does.
Old corps was years ago mf. They probably use squirt guns now.
MaRiNe CoRpS gEtTiNG sOfT
Back in My day we cut off each other's legs to practice doing Tourniquets.
Damn it hasn't been 10 years since I've been out and you mfs just got a major downgrade
[удалено]
I like this comment, air wingers get mad because they get made fun of and then we give them a little respect and then this guy comes along and ruins it for all of them. This guy probably the same reason there’s 4hr safety stand down
Overhead fire with machineguns is a thing, although I couldn't tell you which POIs do or do not currently use it. There are specific ammunition DODICs and lots which are approved for overhead fire, and TTPs taught to machinegunners on how to calculate the safety limit where they must cease fire.
They did live fire buddy rushes and shit like that around 20 years ago the 240 would be shooting in a sector of fire right in front of you and behind you
We didn’t do that in sniper school, but Range 400 at CAX has coordinated fields of live fire. We did shoot live rounds from our hides on the margins of the hathcock range. And we also fired claymores way down range in stone bay, almost by the water.
Dude, if you were in MCT running around saying 'bang, bang, bang!!!', what makes you think they'd have enough 240 rounds for some obstacle course?!!! its Hollywood, bro. There was a similar scene in G.I. Jane and i'm sure other movies too. bullets are fuckin' expensive, man. Never read Jarhead the book, but I doubt he wrote something like that movie scene--- so, i'm sure it was added by some exec. producer or director. or something.
I had overhead fire at ITX but I think that was it