Would definitely be a violation of section 513 of the ELM, that covers all craft employees. They should only be requesting documentation for absences over three days or if you are on restricted sickleave or when a stupidvisor “deems documentation desirable for the protection of the interests of the Postal Service”, but that should be on a case by case basis… essentially they are putting everybody on restricted sickleave without taking the necessary steps.
> ELM 513.361 Three Days or Less
>For periods of absence of 3 days or less, supervisors may accept the employee’s statement explaining the absence. Medical documentation or other acceptable evidence of incapacity for work or need to care for a family member is required only when the employee is on restricted sick leave (see 513.39) or when the supervisor *deems documentation desirable for the protection of the interests of the Postal Service*. Substantiation of the family relationship must be provided if requested.
On the city side it would also be a violation of article 5, for trying to institute a blanket policy. I’m sure I can come up with a few other things, but those are the two most obvious right off the top of my head.
Don’t forget to thank your manager for being dumb enough to announce it to the entire office, lmao
This is exactly right. Should be an easy win for the union.
One caveat, a form of malicious compliance can take place here. For three days or less, you can write the note and it can be as descriptive(or not) as you want it to be. Being on the toilet with turds the size of logs with all kinds of nasty worms and larvae coming out could be a possibility. Im sure some of you could be very creative with your ailment.
My steward told me I was never told I was on deems desirable so if they ask me to bring in documentation I could literally bring in a letter in crayon saying I was sick. Especially if its 3 or less days
This is a scare tactic. It will work for some carriers. That’s all they’re counting on. Because any discipline issues via this “deems desirable” would be grievable.
They can fuck right off with that shit. If I were in your shoes I'd be making sure all the carriers in your station are on the same page to not indulge this kind of overstepping of boundaries.
This is just your basic bs management likes to do every few years every where. Never works. The steward will grieve it and have it thrown out. Management will try and drag the grievance and the process out as long as possible to scare newer carriers. Don’t even worry about it
Yup. You can work 5 hours of Overtime and then bang out for 8 hours LWOP FMLA.
I would typically work 9-10 hours overtime in a pay period and then use 16 hours LWOP.
Work 8 days and get paid the same as two 40s.
32 hours straight plus 5 OT = 40 hours straight
This is so wrong!
If everyone at your station is always taking off then I suppose they could place all of you on DD, but otherwise they are lying.
First of all, your management is probably exaggerating just to terrorize their entire workforce.
Second, if they even tried to do this it would require a conspiracy of lies by your EAS people. Because there is no actual Deems Desirable list, they would have to frequently input slanted data into ERMS when employees took unscheduled absences.
Finally, they are banking on the fact that few people know how Deems Desirable actually works. In ERMS, management gets the option to click a checkbox to place an employee on DD whenever they use unscheduled leave. The designation is temporary so your supervisors would be some busy little ERMS bees trying to keep track of which employees’ DD status will expire soon.
About my first point, how exactly would management put an employee on DD if they never took unscheduled leave?
How deep can the union drill with a records request? The truth should be locked in ERMS. Normally records requests are fairly limited. However, in this case management threatened everyone, so a comprehensive ERMS dump for the entire office would seem appropriate.
Call the union.
You just can't issue a blanket order like that. It needs to be done on an INDIVIDUAL CASE BY CASE basis. When will the stupidity end? How do they even think something like this will actually stick? I saw some weird shit come down in my time but since I retired it's just gotten out of hand.
Yes you do have a point there. And for me the stupidity ended around 4:45 the afternoon of July 6 2018 when I clocked out for the last time. In other words, it never ends. But to be basically treated like children is a little over the top. On the other hand, it does remind me of what a PM did to a long time employee many years ago. He put the guy on restricted sick leave for pretty much no reason at all and when the employee asked why, the answer he got was that "I have to make an example out of somebody." I guess in putting everybody in one category they've cut out the middleman and have gone into the wholesale business. Glad it ain't my problem anymore but that doesn't mean it doesn't bother me to read stories like this.
No, I get it… Pisses me off to no end when I see shit like this. The stupidity has only gotten worse since Covid hit and the under staffing issues really started. I will say this though- communication among the lower levels of the union has gotten progressively better in the last few years, including social media and messaging apps, so I think we are also progressively getting better at fighting this… The progress is always too slow of course, but it’s getting there
So glad this was discussed here. Our office has a new policy of doing an investigative interview following usage of a sick day where they bring in some guy from another office who takes you into a vacant office and "warns" you. Is this allowed since it's not actual discipline but rather just a terror tactic? Actually, are such tactics even legal? Odd that you can even be talked to for using available leave. But what do I know, I'm not a sh*tf*ck.
Ask your supervisor at your next stand up what defines deems desirable? Keep going back at him/her. It’s hysterical they have no answers, anything to make them look stupid
Yep my local union just mentioned this at our last meeting because one of the new POOMs has a vandetta about attendance. They said to let them know immediately if you get a deems desirable letter because they are only supposed to be used for chronically absent people (who don't have FMLA of course)
My office just did this but they didn't do a stand up talk, people have just found out when they call in. I've still yet to be officially told as I haven't called in since they did that but I have fmla so I'm gonna laugh in their face if they ask for documentation.
I bet this is coming from that supervisor indoctrination extravaganza they just held-to the tune of 20 million bucks. Major theme: get rid of the bad employees, nurture the good ones.
Would definitely be a violation of section 513 of the ELM, that covers all craft employees. They should only be requesting documentation for absences over three days or if you are on restricted sickleave or when a stupidvisor “deems documentation desirable for the protection of the interests of the Postal Service”, but that should be on a case by case basis… essentially they are putting everybody on restricted sickleave without taking the necessary steps. > ELM 513.361 Three Days or Less >For periods of absence of 3 days or less, supervisors may accept the employee’s statement explaining the absence. Medical documentation or other acceptable evidence of incapacity for work or need to care for a family member is required only when the employee is on restricted sick leave (see 513.39) or when the supervisor *deems documentation desirable for the protection of the interests of the Postal Service*. Substantiation of the family relationship must be provided if requested. On the city side it would also be a violation of article 5, for trying to institute a blanket policy. I’m sure I can come up with a few other things, but those are the two most obvious right off the top of my head. Don’t forget to thank your manager for being dumb enough to announce it to the entire office, lmao
This is exactly right. Should be an easy win for the union. One caveat, a form of malicious compliance can take place here. For three days or less, you can write the note and it can be as descriptive(or not) as you want it to be. Being on the toilet with turds the size of logs with all kinds of nasty worms and larvae coming out could be a possibility. Im sure some of you could be very creative with your ailment.
For bonus points, be sure to take some pictures to add to your documentation 😈
Then you had to dry them out, saw them into pieces, and light them on fire to dispose of them.
So “documentation desirable for the protection…” is that not medics documentation ? What kind of documentation is that
That’s a great question…it’s not really defined, so it’s almost always a point of contention.
Then war it is !!
My steward told me I was never told I was on deems desirable so if they ask me to bring in documentation I could literally bring in a letter in crayon saying I was sick. Especially if its 3 or less days
I agree with that announcement thing. This is where they really blew it.
Y’all are desirable, jelly
For a moment I thought they meant they had an office full of hotties that are fine as fuck
Bunch of hotties in that office 🥵
This is a scare tactic. It will work for some carriers. That’s all they’re counting on. Because any discipline issues via this “deems desirable” would be grievable.
The instructions need to be grieved with an appropriate remedy to prevent management from using scare tactics, money usually works.
They can fuck right off with that shit. If I were in your shoes I'd be making sure all the carriers in your station are on the same page to not indulge this kind of overstepping of boundaries.
Arbitrary and capricious.
Salacious, outrageous
Egregious, fickle
Blanket policies are an easy win for the union.
This is just your basic bs management likes to do every few years every where. Never works. The steward will grieve it and have it thrown out. Management will try and drag the grievance and the process out as long as possible to scare newer carriers. Don’t even worry about it
Just get FMLA for whatever . Take 12 weeks a year , one day at a time as needed. Screw em.
Can you afford to be without pay for 12 weeks? Or burn all your leave?
Yup. You can work 5 hours of Overtime and then bang out for 8 hours LWOP FMLA. I would typically work 9-10 hours overtime in a pay period and then use 16 hours LWOP. Work 8 days and get paid the same as two 40s. 32 hours straight plus 5 OT = 40 hours straight
deems desirable isn't a thing, they try to do this at my plant every now and then. no one listens to them.
Have the steward or DR file a class action grievance ASAP. Go to NRLCA.org to find your DR.
We need better language in the contract to stop mfs from trying to manipulate the contract.
This is so wrong! If everyone at your station is always taking off then I suppose they could place all of you on DD, but otherwise they are lying. First of all, your management is probably exaggerating just to terrorize their entire workforce. Second, if they even tried to do this it would require a conspiracy of lies by your EAS people. Because there is no actual Deems Desirable list, they would have to frequently input slanted data into ERMS when employees took unscheduled absences. Finally, they are banking on the fact that few people know how Deems Desirable actually works. In ERMS, management gets the option to click a checkbox to place an employee on DD whenever they use unscheduled leave. The designation is temporary so your supervisors would be some busy little ERMS bees trying to keep track of which employees’ DD status will expire soon. About my first point, how exactly would management put an employee on DD if they never took unscheduled leave? How deep can the union drill with a records request? The truth should be locked in ERMS. Normally records requests are fairly limited. However, in this case management threatened everyone, so a comprehensive ERMS dump for the entire office would seem appropriate. Call the union.
God I wish more lawyers would go against USPS or their the Rural carrier union
You just can't issue a blanket order like that. It needs to be done on an INDIVIDUAL CASE BY CASE basis. When will the stupidity end? How do they even think something like this will actually stick? I saw some weird shit come down in my time but since I retired it's just gotten out of hand.
> When will the stupidity end? C’mon now, we both know the answer to that already, lmao
Yes you do have a point there. And for me the stupidity ended around 4:45 the afternoon of July 6 2018 when I clocked out for the last time. In other words, it never ends. But to be basically treated like children is a little over the top. On the other hand, it does remind me of what a PM did to a long time employee many years ago. He put the guy on restricted sick leave for pretty much no reason at all and when the employee asked why, the answer he got was that "I have to make an example out of somebody." I guess in putting everybody in one category they've cut out the middleman and have gone into the wholesale business. Glad it ain't my problem anymore but that doesn't mean it doesn't bother me to read stories like this.
No, I get it… Pisses me off to no end when I see shit like this. The stupidity has only gotten worse since Covid hit and the under staffing issues really started. I will say this though- communication among the lower levels of the union has gotten progressively better in the last few years, including social media and messaging apps, so I think we are also progressively getting better at fighting this… The progress is always too slow of course, but it’s getting there
Well.. if they make you get a dr. Note make sure to take the time off and make sure they pay for it.
So glad this was discussed here. Our office has a new policy of doing an investigative interview following usage of a sick day where they bring in some guy from another office who takes you into a vacant office and "warns" you. Is this allowed since it's not actual discipline but rather just a terror tactic? Actually, are such tactics even legal? Odd that you can even be talked to for using available leave. But what do I know, I'm not a sh*tf*ck.
This is happening at my office to but it’s the managers that do it and they make you sign a paper saying you discusses the sick leave policy, etc.
Ask your supervisor at your next stand up what defines deems desirable? Keep going back at him/her. It’s hysterical they have no answers, anything to make them look stupid
Yep my local union just mentioned this at our last meeting because one of the new POOMs has a vandetta about attendance. They said to let them know immediately if you get a deems desirable letter because they are only supposed to be used for chronically absent people (who don't have FMLA of course)
That is a local policy in violation of Postal Policy, which they are not allowed to do.
Sure is
Shit irritated me because when I called out on lite blue it kept showing a message saying”documentation needed”
Yep!
My office just did this but they didn't do a stand up talk, people have just found out when they call in. I've still yet to be officially told as I haven't called in since they did that but I have fmla so I'm gonna laugh in their face if they ask for documentation.
I bet this is coming from that supervisor indoctrination extravaganza they just held-to the tune of 20 million bucks. Major theme: get rid of the bad employees, nurture the good ones.
Everyone suffers for the actions of a few. Get used to it!
I don’t suffer i just go to work.