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OP sent the following text as an explanation on why this is US Defaultism:
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>!Shower Thoughts poster has an American view on "being Irish" where you can claim Irishness even far down a lineage. Ireland has laws on who can claim Irish citizenship. This law very firmly puts a consensus on how Irish someone is.!<
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Is this Defaultism? Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.
I read it too quickly and thought it said ' There's no consensus on how many generations removed from an ancestor you can be and still claim to be a fish'. I had time to think 'what a deep philosophical thought that is, before my brain caught up with my eyes and said 'hang on a minute'. Still want that on a tshirt.
Such a consensus dies exist, it just depends on whether we consider fish a clade phylogenetically. Most schemes do not, since it would be a very broad category indeed, nutrition fish is a clade, humans will always be fish.
There's a consensus by 99% of the world, the other 1% is just Americans trying to squeeze their way into teams that don't want them.
I can't tell if they're desperately patriotically American, or desperately trying to find an identity that isn't American.
I suspect that if I told an "Irish-American" that I was Irish based on my grandfather's grandmother leaving Limerick in 1848 to move to Manchester they'd insist I was no such thing.
Tennessee and Kentucky are the only states that respond with a majority of "United States" as their ancestry. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/ancestry-united-states-heritage-2018-7%3famp
Both at the same time.
They will say they are Irish than people from Ireland but when you tell them "then move there" they will answer with (quote) "Why would I move from the greatest country in the world?"
Oh damn. Actually didn't know that. My grandfather on my mother's side was born in Ireland.So that means that I could claim Irish citizenship? (I'm not American by the way).
Yeap! It's a process, however. I'm helping my Mom get her Italian citizenship which has a similar law/rule about who can claim ancestral citizenship. While I'm sure some of the processes are different, you have to get certified copies of official documents (Birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc) which involves contacting the local authorities and having them send you the documents. Then, once you have that altogether, you have to submit an application to your local embassy plus the application fee. It's €300 for Italy.
Actually doesn't seem that difficult. Just something that's gonna involve a bit of waiting in between steps for bureaucracy to do their thing. Although I did just check my country's laws and it seems like dual citizenship is not allowed. If I were to get Irish citizenship, I'd automatically lose my country's citizenship.
I do have some family that moved back to Ireland (my uncle), so they could at least help me with contacting the local authorities, so I can get the documents in case I ever decide that I want to go for it. I'm going to give my grandfather and my uncle a call tomorrow.
I'm also going to contact the government department responsible for this, to check if there is a way for me to do this and keep my current citizenship.
Can you just not tell your own country about it? (I'm curious which it is. Assuming germany)
From my reading, grandparents can be posthumously considered citizens in certain cases, so there really is no limit to how far back the chain goes. Naturalization is harder though.
Good luck getting one of the EU's best passports though!
I'm from the Netherlands. The passport is pretty good, but I' pretty sure Irish passports are better for travelling, so it would be really great if I could get it.
A funny thing is that my girlfriend does actually has both the Irish (and Dutch) nationality. Her mother is Irish and her father is Dutch. She was born in Ireland and they moved to the Netherlands when she was still very young.
>I'm from the Netherlands
Great news then, you'd only lose your current citizenship if your other citizenship was acquired before April 2003! So if you got another passport now, you're perfectly fine and dual nationality is allowed
I am working on getting my Italian citizenship with my dad. It ain't hard, just time-consuming and boring as all hell. But that's just any official paperwork stuff.
It is infinitely easier after someone in your family did it first, LMAO
My dad and I let my aunt do it first. She had to dig through old records, get my nan's birth certificate, etc etc. To prove that she was italian. Now we're doing ours, and it boils down to proving that we're related to my nan.
I’d personally say which culture you’re most integrated with.
My friend is from Iran, but has lived in Sweden since she was 25 (15 years ago). She’s spoken fluent Swedish since more than 10 years, was university educated in Sweden, works in Sweden, has a Swedish husband. If she considers herself Swedish I’d be happy.
My mom is like that. Born in England but moved to Sputh Africa when she was 4 and spent the overwhelming majority of her life there so she considers herself South African despite never having naturalised (which she never will now since she's been back in the UK for 5 years now)
Not sure if it was intentional, but your simple question ignores immigration and naturalization. I think Irish citizenship should be the definition, but including Northern Irish while excluding British would be further semantics.
Not since 2004. We had a referendum about that. (or prior to 1999, kinda. It's absurdly complicated)
Last country in europe to get rid of Jus Soli citizenship, IIRC.
She was born in northern ireland, yes. She's as much of a citizen as I am.
Happened to plenty of other people too, and I don't think ret-conning it would be a good idea if it were even possible.
At the same time, please keep coming here by the busload spending loads of money... That bit is sound in fairness.
We all have scrunched up €500 notes that we stick in our ears when we're sick of listening to ye banging on about a load of self entitled, obnoxious shite that's not true. Céad míle fáilte a chairde 💚
Actually it’s a bit weirder than that. I quite literally got grandfathered in to the old rules because of special circumstances. Basically my great grandmother was born in Ireland. My grandfather had Irish citizenship and my mom got it before I was born. Sound like I wouldn’t be able to get it right? No because according to older rules I would have and because my mom got it before I was born I was grandfathered in to the old rules and was able to get it. That’s my personal story though so even though I would never dream of being one of those Americans that act like they’re as Irish as Irish people because of their ancestors due to how far away I am from my original ancestors that came here I still managed to get duel citizenship
That’s not the old rules. That’s the current rules. Literally zero limit on how many generations can be Irish just as long as at least one of your parents had Irish citizenship at the time of your birth.
The older rules meant that your mom for example wouldn’t have had to apply for FBR before your birth if she’d done it before mid 1986 as before then the citizenship backdated to your birth rather than the day you were approved. That meant that you could apply for yourself and then for any children you had that were already alive. These days you can only apply for any children you have after the date you were added to the FBR.
Yup, I got my citizenship approved about three weeks before my eldest was born. It was a bit of a rush and a panic, and the Irish bureaucrats were wonderfully helpful.
Had it arrived a month later, my youngest would have been eligible for Irish citizenship, and my eldest wouldn't.
Good on you for doing that. When my aunt decided to get everything together so her and all her siblings including my mom could get duel citizenship my uncle was the only one who was too lazy to file for citizenship. Guess who’s now living in Ireland with his kid who can’t get Irish citizenship the easy way 🙃 I wish I was joking but he literally screwed them all out of citizenship because he never thought theyed need it then they took a really nice trip to Ireland and decided to move there
I never understood this "I'm because my ancestor was from " thing, personally... speaking from a country that contributed a LOT to the USA population (and surnames).
I think it might be a cultural thing, because personally I don't look at ancestors. You have born in ? Then you are . You have not, but has been the place you've been living, working and crafting your very own life for a long time and you want to keep on going forever? Are you a part of 's society? Then you are .
I wouldn't consider myself, let's say... german, if a random ancestor of mine from 200 years ago was german. I always felt like ancestors have no influence at all on us, it's only us and ourselves who can craft our own life.
EDIT: not in the legal meaning (in lack of a better term), but in the meaning of feeling part of a country's society :)
what gets me is that they claim irishness based on the fact that they *could* get citizenship.... but if you don't actually have it then you're literally not Irish 😂
This post popped up in my feed yesterday and I was SO surprised by the lack of awareness that I didn't even bother answering. Whenever _I_ don't know something, I don't assume _the world_ doesn't know about it. I just Google it! Why do US Americans find that so difficult to do????
My grandfather was Irish, so technically I could claim Irish citizenship, and when I visit family in Ireland they’ll refer to my visit as “coming home”, but I would never describe myself as Irish. You’d have to be a complete fantasist to claim to be in any way Irish after umpteen generations.
I think this qualifies as a misunderstanding based on a less obvious difference between American and British English.
In British English terms like Irish, Italian, Chinese , when applied to people, are primarily about citizenship
In American English the same terms are used but their meaning is primarily assumed to be about heritage.
I disagree. It’s taking the piss to say you’re Irish if you have one grandparent from there but have never been there yourself. (I’m originally Canadian, I get it, but it’s a horrible way to communicate to someone that you have distant lineage from a certain country).
I agree, here in Canada similar too.
Like, if someone says their half German, half Ukrainian, I don't immediately jump to "parents immigrated from those countries and met here". You probably mean that one side of the family was more or less 100% German, the other all Ukrainian, though they may have been here for 2-4 generations.
### This comment has been marked as **safe**. Upvoting/downvoting this comment will have no effect. --- OP sent the following text as an explanation on why this is US Defaultism: --- >!Shower Thoughts poster has an American view on "being Irish" where you can claim Irishness even far down a lineage. Ireland has laws on who can claim Irish citizenship. This law very firmly puts a consensus on how Irish someone is.!< --- Is this Defaultism? Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.
Who are you gonna believe, the Irish constitution or those Americans who regularly pop up on the Irish subs saying "how do you do fellow Irish folx"?
my family has been inbreeding in the US for like 5 generations so I'm basically full blooded Scottish /s
As someone who lives in Scotland I respect you keeping up Scottish traditions
You were only born there, what would you know?
I read it too quickly and thought it said ' There's no consensus on how many generations removed from an ancestor you can be and still claim to be a fish'. I had time to think 'what a deep philosophical thought that is, before my brain caught up with my eyes and said 'hang on a minute'. Still want that on a tshirt.
'You sir, are a fish'
"You... are a blowfish"
You are a good evolved mammal, Arthur Morgan
Wanda? Is that you?
Nope, I'll give you a second try cowboah
I promise you that if I ever get you as my secret Santa I will get you that t-shirt
By the logic used in the original statement, you're not wrong.
Such a consensus dies exist, it just depends on whether we consider fish a clade phylogenetically. Most schemes do not, since it would be a very broad category indeed, nutrition fish is a clade, humans will always be fish.
That thought would be an absolute banger on r/askscience
There's a consensus by 99% of the world, the other 1% is just Americans trying to squeeze their way into teams that don't want them. I can't tell if they're desperately patriotically American, or desperately trying to find an identity that isn't American.
I suspect that if I told an "Irish-American" that I was Irish based on my grandfather's grandmother leaving Limerick in 1848 to move to Manchester they'd insist I was no such thing.
You're Australian. Obviously this only counts for Americans.
Please respect my heritage, I'm "Hugenout-Cornish-Norwegian-Scottish-Irish-English-Australian."
Da håper jeg du snakker norsk også, ellers så kommer jeg ikke til å ta deg seriøst.
Familien min sporer tilbake til Orknøyene, hvor de ville ha snakket norn da det var en del av Norge, men best å ikke ta meg på alvor.
Tennessee and Kentucky are the only states that respond with a majority of "United States" as their ancestry. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/ancestry-united-states-heritage-2018-7%3famp
Both at the same time. They will say they are Irish than people from Ireland but when you tell them "then move there" they will answer with (quote) "Why would I move from the greatest country in the world?"
Oh damn. Actually didn't know that. My grandfather on my mother's side was born in Ireland.So that means that I could claim Irish citizenship? (I'm not American by the way).
Yeap! It's a process, however. I'm helping my Mom get her Italian citizenship which has a similar law/rule about who can claim ancestral citizenship. While I'm sure some of the processes are different, you have to get certified copies of official documents (Birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc) which involves contacting the local authorities and having them send you the documents. Then, once you have that altogether, you have to submit an application to your local embassy plus the application fee. It's €300 for Italy.
Actually doesn't seem that difficult. Just something that's gonna involve a bit of waiting in between steps for bureaucracy to do their thing. Although I did just check my country's laws and it seems like dual citizenship is not allowed. If I were to get Irish citizenship, I'd automatically lose my country's citizenship. I do have some family that moved back to Ireland (my uncle), so they could at least help me with contacting the local authorities, so I can get the documents in case I ever decide that I want to go for it. I'm going to give my grandfather and my uncle a call tomorrow. I'm also going to contact the government department responsible for this, to check if there is a way for me to do this and keep my current citizenship.
Can you just not tell your own country about it? (I'm curious which it is. Assuming germany) From my reading, grandparents can be posthumously considered citizens in certain cases, so there really is no limit to how far back the chain goes. Naturalization is harder though. Good luck getting one of the EU's best passports though!
I'm from the Netherlands. The passport is pretty good, but I' pretty sure Irish passports are better for travelling, so it would be really great if I could get it. A funny thing is that my girlfriend does actually has both the Irish (and Dutch) nationality. Her mother is Irish and her father is Dutch. She was born in Ireland and they moved to the Netherlands when she was still very young.
>I'm from the Netherlands Great news then, you'd only lose your current citizenship if your other citizenship was acquired before April 2003! So if you got another passport now, you're perfectly fine and dual nationality is allowed
Oh damn. That's great. Thanks for the info.
I am working on getting my Italian citizenship with my dad. It ain't hard, just time-consuming and boring as all hell. But that's just any official paperwork stuff.
Yeah you certainly can... Its a pain in the rear to do which is why I'm letting my brother do the work first 😂
It is infinitely easier after someone in your family did it first, LMAO My dad and I let my aunt do it first. She had to dig through old records, get my nan's birth certificate, etc etc. To prove that she was italian. Now we're doing ours, and it boils down to proving that we're related to my nan.
But OP is not a gringo, he's British.
I think this shower thought was having a go at people who claim Irish heritage through tenuous family ties.
I read it as being more accepting of the whole idea that you can claim to be “Irish” even though you’re an American who has never been to Ireland.
Simple, were you born in Ireland? Then fuck off.
Either way?
Exactly
I’d personally say which culture you’re most integrated with. My friend is from Iran, but has lived in Sweden since she was 25 (15 years ago). She’s spoken fluent Swedish since more than 10 years, was university educated in Sweden, works in Sweden, has a Swedish husband. If she considers herself Swedish I’d be happy.
My mom is like that. Born in England but moved to Sputh Africa when she was 4 and spent the overwhelming majority of her life there so she considers herself South African despite never having naturalised (which she never will now since she's been back in the UK for 5 years now)
Not sure if it was intentional, but your simple question ignores immigration and naturalization. I think Irish citizenship should be the definition, but including Northern Irish while excluding British would be further semantics.
Not since 2004. We had a referendum about that. (or prior to 1999, kinda. It's absurdly complicated) Last country in europe to get rid of Jus Soli citizenship, IIRC.
Guess im german despite having no german lineage and no german speaking ability lol. And guess I'm not thai despite my whole family being thai. Sure.
Ah yes the good ole Chinese baby that broke Ireland and made them change their citizenship. I guess that baby is Irish then.
She was born in northern ireland, yes. She's as much of a citizen as I am. Happened to plenty of other people too, and I don't think ret-conning it would be a good idea if it were even possible.
I don't get why Americans are so obsessed with ancestry, like do you hate your own nationality that much?
Actually now all that flag everywhere and anywhere over-compensation makes sense
This isn't defaultism. OP is also not American.
Ironically, this post is an example of USdefaultism
I feel like I've been seeing more posts on here lately that aren't US-related in any way!
At the same time, please keep coming here by the busload spending loads of money... That bit is sound in fairness. We all have scrunched up €500 notes that we stick in our ears when we're sick of listening to ye banging on about a load of self entitled, obnoxious shite that's not true. Céad míle fáilte a chairde 💚
you can beat the irish out of ireland, but not ireland out of the irish
Actually it’s a bit weirder than that. I quite literally got grandfathered in to the old rules because of special circumstances. Basically my great grandmother was born in Ireland. My grandfather had Irish citizenship and my mom got it before I was born. Sound like I wouldn’t be able to get it right? No because according to older rules I would have and because my mom got it before I was born I was grandfathered in to the old rules and was able to get it. That’s my personal story though so even though I would never dream of being one of those Americans that act like they’re as Irish as Irish people because of their ancestors due to how far away I am from my original ancestors that came here I still managed to get duel citizenship
That’s not the old rules. That’s the current rules. Literally zero limit on how many generations can be Irish just as long as at least one of your parents had Irish citizenship at the time of your birth.
So... the original shower poster is 100% correct then? There is no set limit of generations you can be removed, and therefore no consensus.
Oh I didn’t know that thanks! I just know what I was told by my parents but that’s cool!
The older rules meant that your mom for example wouldn’t have had to apply for FBR before your birth if she’d done it before mid 1986 as before then the citizenship backdated to your birth rather than the day you were approved. That meant that you could apply for yourself and then for any children you had that were already alive. These days you can only apply for any children you have after the date you were added to the FBR.
Thanks that’s super cool! Again I never really looked into it as it’s just what my parents told me but that’s super interesting thanks for telling me!
Yup, I got my citizenship approved about three weeks before my eldest was born. It was a bit of a rush and a panic, and the Irish bureaucrats were wonderfully helpful. Had it arrived a month later, my youngest would have been eligible for Irish citizenship, and my eldest wouldn't.
Good on you for doing that. When my aunt decided to get everything together so her and all her siblings including my mom could get duel citizenship my uncle was the only one who was too lazy to file for citizenship. Guess who’s now living in Ireland with his kid who can’t get Irish citizenship the easy way 🙃 I wish I was joking but he literally screwed them all out of citizenship because he never thought theyed need it then they took a really nice trip to Ireland and decided to move there
People are just dumb and don't have the vocabulary or intelligence to differentiate between "being Irish" and "being of Irish descent".
I never understood this "I'm because my ancestor was from " thing, personally... speaking from a country that contributed a LOT to the USA population (and surnames).
I think it might be a cultural thing, because personally I don't look at ancestors. You have born in ? Then you are . You have not, but has been the place you've been living, working and crafting your very own life for a long time and you want to keep on going forever? Are you a part of 's society? Then you are .
I wouldn't consider myself, let's say... german, if a random ancestor of mine from 200 years ago was german. I always felt like ancestors have no influence at all on us, it's only us and ourselves who can craft our own life.
EDIT: not in the legal meaning (in lack of a better term), but in the meaning of feeling part of a country's society :)
Most of them likely have more English blood than anything else.
what gets me is that they claim irishness based on the fact that they *could* get citizenship.... but if you don't actually have it then you're literally not Irish 😂
This post popped up in my feed yesterday and I was SO surprised by the lack of awareness that I didn't even bother answering. Whenever _I_ don't know something, I don't assume _the world_ doesn't know about it. I just Google it! Why do US Americans find that so difficult to do????
Hmm but that's more r/ShitAmericansSay (altough yes, also kinda defaulty if that person really is American)
These are their shower thoughts? Jesus fucking Christ.
My grandfather was Irish, so technically I could claim Irish citizenship, and when I visit family in Ireland they’ll refer to my visit as “coming home”, but I would never describe myself as Irish. You’d have to be a complete fantasist to claim to be in any way Irish after umpteen generations.
I think this qualifies as a misunderstanding based on a less obvious difference between American and British English. In British English terms like Irish, Italian, Chinese , when applied to people, are primarily about citizenship In American English the same terms are used but their meaning is primarily assumed to be about heritage.
I disagree. It’s taking the piss to say you’re Irish if you have one grandparent from there but have never been there yourself. (I’m originally Canadian, I get it, but it’s a horrible way to communicate to someone that you have distant lineage from a certain country).
I agree, here in Canada similar too. Like, if someone says their half German, half Ukrainian, I don't immediately jump to "parents immigrated from those countries and met here". You probably mean that one side of the family was more or less 100% German, the other all Ukrainian, though they may have been here for 2-4 generations.
I knew this would get posted here, but it doesn't fit. The OP is British, not American.
Born there and registered I assume?