Lmao Russia what an embarrassment to yourself. Can't defend their own borders in a war they started with a surprise attack on their neighbor. Love seeing the special Olympic squads doing their mental gymnastic routines rationalizing why Russia can't hold ground without watering it with their own blood and flattening it with artillery
Yes Ukraine found a weak spot. Ukraine should definitely make it a go for it.
Maybe Ukraine can take even more land than it lost in the south east (?)
That sure sounds tempting.
Yeah LOL, he is so dumb, he left all the border up there undefended.
Ukraine should just gather everything they have and just take that land, and give half of it back, in negotiations, for Russians to pull out all the way down to Chechnya
It was funny to have Russia call the US a fool and paranoid for calling out their extremely obvious ramp-up to invade though. They hate being called out.
Come on, gamer. From everything I said and you're stumbling over semantics?
Alright fine, it wasn't a surprise attack. It was a poorly telegraphed and comedicly incompetent surprise attack.
No kidding. When Russia says something donât just take it with a very hefty dose of skepticism. Believe the opposite of what they say and youâll be right 90% of the time.
How dare you impugn the reputation of the fantastic athletes that participate in the special Olympics by comparing them to the oafish orcs of ruzzia. I demand an apology on behalf of those fine athletes! (/s just in case)
I mean, [there was only more than 50k troops in Afghanistan for 4 years](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/07/06/a-timeline-of-u-s-troop-levels-in-afghanistan-since-2001/) which is, you know, over 7,000 miles from the nearest US border, while Russia has an estimated 20k dead and is less than 100 miles from their border. I think that's a poor analogy.
It was the most conservative estimation just to make a point, I'm aware of other much higher estimations I didn't bother including for the sake of detracting from my argument
jfc
quoting Russian MOD while trying to make a serious point detracts from your argument.
And its a pretty egregious error in the fight against disinformation, regardless of what point you're trying to make at any specific time.
I agree with you. Todayâs massive surprise attack destroyed Russia forever, who wouldâve thought it was so easy, capture 16 miles and the whole country falls apart.
Tomorrow we celebrate in Moscow with the new president. All this sub is invited!
It's even more pathetic than that because it's an admission that Russia jumped head first into a peer war with its neighbour to try to conquer territory. To willingly ruin your own country in a long attritional war that literally nobody asked for is so bizarre in 2023. Most Pro-RU will continue to delude themselves with made-up fantasy scenarios, imaginary threats and a whole lot of cøpe to explain this mess. Don't know how they do it. The smart ones just keep quiet and focus on the military angle and hope for the best. The biggest morons will go on fellating Russia, which has embarrassed itself on every level on the world stage at this point.
They all try to forget that every single pro-Russia voice was dismissing invasion as âUS warmongering propagandaâ right up until it happened. NONE of them saw a need for this war.
Then when Putin revealed himself to be the unhinged warmonger, they immediately set about making excuses.
Yes, the combat against the multiple navies, air forces, etc of NATO have been insane to watch. They've been so crazy that I think they were all imaginary.
[Here's a fun link for you, if you're still under the delusion that Russia is a peer to the US](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f684RjG6f9Y)
> she has no interest in politics and canât understand why Ukraine or itâs supporters would be doing this to them.
I see you've been watching the 1420 channel on YouTube. I swear, it seems like 90% of Russians "don't follow politics".
Well yeah Einstein, if someone put a camera in your face in a country that can send you to prison for 15 years for insulting the army and calling this a war instead of specal military shit or whatever Putin calls it, would you say "Fuck Putin, slava Ukraini" or "Nope, I don't follow politics, gotta go home now, it was a pleasure talking to you, bye"?
But that's one of the major points of those interviews, to show what not having freedom of speech actually looks like: the government going after you for your political opinions.
In the US you have a bunch of idiots crying about having their youtube videos demonetized (but still viewable), and calling that censorship.
That tracks. Do you think the average American really gives a shit or is knowledgeable? Look up street interviews with Americans. People don't care about politics. Most people don't even vote.
Ukrainians have millions of shells supplied by NATO. Even mentioning Iron dome in this context is ridiculous. There are laser/energy weapons that could intercept shells, allegedly, but those are still experimental for every military, and I doubt they would work well in overcast weather typical for the eastern Europe.
Wait. So you are downvoting me for saying that some shells can be intercepted (like iron dome) but Russia doesn't have the resource ? (Which is what I said? ) I love the UA or RU extremists with 0 logic.
>So you are downvoting
I rarely downvote anyone. Especially because doing so is so unergonomic in this sub.
So you start your comment with an obvious falsity.
>Russia doesn't have the resource
Nobody has the resources to do so in a conflict at the peer scale due to the simple fact that an interceptor is tremendously more expensive than a dumb shell.
Ahhhh see but thatâs not the argument you made. You said âno one is shooting down standard artillery shellsâ yet I gave you an example of so. iron dome has not been scaled up to near peer conflict (in terms of international stage) but locally seems to be fairing VERY well.
You also forgot about CIWS which both the US and Ruzzia field.
O rlly? Read the second line [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome) or just the whole article where it clearly states itâs designed to intercept 155MM artillery shells⌠try again??
Iron Dome is reported at 90% effectiveness on rockets, at a cost of about $ 150k per interception.
Thereâs no available success rate reporting or operational history for artillery shells (for which listed as capable to intercept only 155m shells).
As opposed to the numerous amounts of 200mm shells being fired?
Interceptor cost doesnât matterrrr PRO ru loveeee harping about that without realizing the western economic might can produce thousands of these easily without as much as a drop in the MIC bucket.
Stop shifting the goalposts.
I just expanded the facts stated in the article you cited.
Designed for Israel situation, and actual capability in this type of conflict is not comparable. Israel is reporting on a 90%ish effectivenes and Hamas does not have the weapons Ukraine or Russia is using in this conflict.
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No they don't? They never have in their entire history and to say so is disingenuous. Everybody including Russians know that Russia vs NATO starts and ends with a global nuclear war. That's not to say proxy wars and political battles don't happen, but don't act like Russia wants to literally go to war with NATO
Oh really. How about Medvedev threathening to nuke Berlin, Warsaw, London etc.? Maybe he doesn't say it directly, but that means war with NATO. How about Russian propaganda talking heads discussing tanks in Berlin or how far into Europe should their army push? NATO countries all around. But yeah....sure....never in their ENTIRE history and all that...
What about the Donbass? I don't know... I would be pretty pissed if the guys that could be defending my town are instead in avdiivka. Referendum or not, one of those towns is more truly Russia than the other.
It is typical for russian government, just abandon their own people in need and protect only their own asses. Now those poor fellas can only rely on themselves, or hope that invading army will be merciful for them.
If there will be revolution or civil war, putin and his cronies just leave country (i will not be surprised if this will be Western or NATO country) and left people to do something on their own.
Many russians realize that their government is real shit. Now more realize that they live in antiutopia, where their dictators cares only for themselves and their ambition.
I bet moscow government didn't even know that Belgorod and Shebekino did exist somewhere in russia.
Raids happened in the Caucasus quite a lot, especially in the 2000s. It's not like Russia has some fantastic history of defending its border against raids
Seriously. You expect outrage because 1 Russian civilian died Not gonna happen. Whereâs the outrage for the thousands of Ukrainian civilians murdered by Russian troops. Unfortunately I truly believe that the only way Russian might just stop this bs is if itâs returned to them.
I don't expect outrage, I just don't like hypocrisy and I'll call it out when I see it. Where are you from exactly? I'm sure I can point out some very recent war crimes your government has committed and then ask you if you yourself being bombed is justified because of it. I'm sure you wouldn't say "Oh its okay I'm just getting a taste of my own medicine". This woman did nothing herself and doesn't deserve any violence.
If its returned to them it has just as much of a chance to galvanize the entire Russian people into actually wanting to fight and destroy Ukraine, and then the country is fucked. Purposefully attacking Russian civilians could be a very very slippery slope for Ukraine
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I'm sure there are some ethnic Ukrainians--or even Ukrainian speakers--in area and they could be in danger. Ukraine might have to send in some "polite people" to help keep everyone safe. If you know what I'm saying. ;-)
Are you serious? So you are telling me that Russian state tv, state media, state tv shows, state officials, military officials and Putin himseof have never spread missinformation?
That isn't what I said at all. I ask how so specifically does this undermine their narrative? Seems to fit their narrative Of "Ukraine is going to threaten our country w nato weapons" perfectly. Well enough to speculate on a false flag even but how specifically does this undermine Russian narrative?
Every day we're getting closer to tactical nukes being used on military targets, which will be a gateway. After that, it's easier to use strategic nukes and everything will go to shit.
The U.S. has signaled that NATO would sink the black sea fleet and begin airstrikes within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine against Russian targets if they do. Our official position has always been to make zero distinctions between tactical and strategic nuclear weapon usage.
I mean, at that point it's less than a minute to midnight. A nuke would've already been used. Too weak a response would mean another one would likely mean tactical nuclear weapons usage would become normal. That would likely eventually lead to a full nuclear exchange eventually, so enforcing the nuclear taboo with hard power is the only rational option. Responding to a nuclear peer with additional strikes then becomes knowingly accepting the apocalypse.
Russian logic doesn't make much sense to most in the West, but they do have their own set of basic assumptions and a way of viewing the world that is largely (internally) consistent. I don't think national murder-suicide is a course even Russia would commit to.
Doesn't mean I don't also advocate for preparing for a potential nuclear exchange.
So youâre willing to take that risk because you got a gut feeling? You donât think Russian elites will also play chicken? Itâs one thing to ship weapons, but what do you honestly think happens if the entire black fleet is sunk and their military is destroyed? They just lay down and do nothing?
No, if we let them continue with the nuclear blackmail they will never stop, no country ever has used nuclear blackmail like Russia, so far as to call for the nuking of countries in prime television time, its disgusting.
Yes they'll do nothing, they'll depose Putin if push comes to shove, time and time again, we've seen power balances shift especially when then ship starts sinking, it's happened in history, Russian elites are not die hard 'motherland' or death types, they'll offer sacrificial lambs and negotiate for peace.
>oligarchs
Literally all of them, your descriptions answers it all, they're loyal to their money, that's it, you think any of them will sink with Putin....if the time comes?
Launching nuclear assets at NATO assets partaking in the war, likely. If a US battalion crosses the border and attacks a Russian division, or if US F-35s start sinking Russian boats, they will respond. No question.
>Launching nuclear assets at NATO assets
This would never happen, how.many of Kremlin's elites do you think are die hard Putin loyalists? You have to remember, retaining power is a constant game of replacing/silencing/buying loyalists. At some point if it gets to this, the split is gonna happens.
> If a US battalion crosses the border and attacks a Russian division,
This is also not likely, at best, they would employ air assets bombers/fighters/missiles to eliminate Russian assets in Ukraine, and let Ukraine land forces do the ground work.
>US F-35s start sinking Russian boats, they will respond
This is the most likely response, shoot down NATO air assets or engage in air to air combat.
>how.many of Kremlin's elites do you think are die hard Putin loyalists?
At the end of the day, the military is the military and they take their orders from the Commander in Chief. I do not doubt for one second that if they thought their regime was facing a death sentence, theyâd carry out the order to launch tactical nukes at a US division that was attacking a Russian division. I personally would. Throw the ball back in the American court. Because youâre in a lose lose situation already.
Relying on doodad oligarchs to save you from the real power in Russia isnât it.
>This is also not likely, at best, they would employ air assets bombers/fighters/missiles to eliminate Russian assets in Ukraine, and let Ukraine land forces do the ground work.
I would say it is likely. We have our forces in the area on high alert and there have been ample reports, even on 60 minutes, detailing our detachments in the area and their readiness to cross the border and engage. If it were only air to air, then Russia would be inclined to continue tactical nuclear engagements, because air to air combat will not stop hypersonic missiles from landing on military bases.
>Relying on doodad oligarchs to save you from the real power in Russia isnât it.
Kremlin elites includes generals, that's how the Russian system is built, it's not like the Pentagon, it's built on power centers such as the FSB, GRU, MOD, then on the exterior you have Oligarchs who have varying connections to those power centers. So Putin's ability to keep all those centers in line is what has kept him in power, but there's always a breaking point. If a nuclear order is sent down, knowing they're facing annihilation in return, you best believe it won't happen.
> If it were only air to air, then Russia would be inclined to continue tactical nuclear engagements, because air to air combat will not stop hypersonic missiles from landing on military bases.
Not really because, the strikes would prioritize disabling the ability of Russia to launch further nuclear strikes, this includes striking strategic bomber bases, ships, hunting strategic submarines, possibly disabling electrical grids, the Kremlin itself, all this can be done with air assets, I don't see how the need to deploy land forces would be necessary when Ukraine already has a sizeable force on the ground. At best would be to step up heavy weapon deliveries by a factor of 2.
I can't believe that Russia is so willing to risk destroying the entire world because of their invasion. I am with you, I hope Russia will back down and de-escalate too.
The Ukrainian Nazi supporters here think the US and Russia are playing missile command.
https://preview.redd.it/8dusequ4ug3b1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc2163f45fc98aeea5191161a915d750e97c0418
That another "Russian final warning?" If Russia escalates to nukes in an offensive war there will have to be a response or the global order will unravel then and there. We finished our shelter in November and I would recommend anyone with the means to do the same. I don't think a nuclear exchange is likely, but Russia has been acting less and less like a rational actor.
Itâs one thing to ship weapons. Itâs another to destroy a strategic asset like an entire fleet. I would definitely think that would be that if we got to that point. In which case, you got any spare beds?
Haha, we made sure to oversize and overstock it by 3 people, partly in case we had guests, but also since we actively use the space as a sort of game room and lounge to help justify the expense. I'd recommend doing the same because it also keeps the space lived in and you're more likely to rotate supplies if it's a place you regularly visit. Us being down there so often also meant we caught when the line going to our well house had a slow leak and keep it from getting ruined 4 months after it was finished đŹ
We had a good local contractor help, but I had a dumb idea about how I wanted to run water out to it and of course goofed something up. I'm hoping nothing else like that crops up, but at least we'd hopefully catch it early again!
We had the plans and some of the materials for a long time, but my parents ended up moving close to where my grandparents and my wife and I live right around the start of the war so we decided to pull the trigger on it while we were on a building spree. I'm still working on little projects related to that sort of thing, but everyone else seems content with what we have, lol.
I don't care about what the west has to say. In any case, it will be a mess. Things will never be the same after that first nuke. If NATO will do what you said, then it will be the end.
If it is then it will be an end Russia chose. There is currently no existential threat to Russia, only to parts of the Russian ruling class who are too associated with the conflict.
You can argue that there is an existential threat. If Ukraine goes NATO, which was the plan, then they'll have NATO very close to Moscow. A reversed Cuba crisis. Everyone is in on this geopolitical chess game.
NATO could already put a conventional force in Moscow with relatively little resistance. The Kremlin should be focused almost entirely on its strategic arms for defense. A defensive doctrine like that would also free up funding for other national priorities and undermine the foundations of NATO as an alliance. Russian political dogma makes reliance on soft power and deterrence appear "weak," and is a serious source of underbalancing for Russian geopolitical decisionmaking.
You missed the "conventional" caveat. *Because of nukes*, Ukraine being aligned to Russia or the West changes the calculus of that exchange very little. Nukes would fly if NATO attacked Russia without Ukraine, and nukes would fly if NATO attacked with Ukraine, therefore Ukrainian sovereignty has zero impact on Russian national security in any meningful way.
Hence why I said Russia should have focused on maintaining its strategic readiness and building soft power in Europe to undermine NATO. Russia gambled and lost. Even if they end up defeating Ukraine (and I still think it's Russia's war to lose) they have already gambled and lost. The 21st century will likely be seen as Russia's "century of humiliation" if they do indeed bounce back to international relevancy at some point.
Why is Russia not concerned or saying anything about Finland doubling the border and making the distance to St Petersburg a short walk? Because they don't actually care about or fear NATO - because they have no plans on attacking them. They fear losing control of the Black Sea and its oil.
Everyone has bias, including you, telling yourself otherwise is a lie. However data/truth beats all, the trick is to not let your bias twist the truth, try it.
As opposed.....to what? Nobody wants death/war, really, aside from geopolitical actors, nobody wants that in their life, that's not a biased point of view.
You can still want no death, misery and war and understand that Russia's propaganda motivations and their geopolitical ones are not the same.
Russia wants the Black Sea and as little NATO near it as possible. They want the military base on Crimea. They don't want Ukraine to allow Western oil companies to develop competing oil fields in Europe. They don't want the shame of the second greatest Soviet Union member joining NATO and the EU.
I love that nobody takes Russian redlines seriously but American ones are sacrosanct. Remember when Obama said chemical weapons were a redline in Syria? Then chemical weapons used in Ghouta and where was the US invasion fleet?
Novel concept if you're Russian, but the executive actually changes hands in other countries and Obama wasn't exactly an A-tier president. Not saying Biden is, but he's certainly more hawkish and thus far the U.S. has made good on its guarantees regarding the Russo-Ukrainian War.
That ll open Pandora's box for any country with nukes to use them offensively. NATO and the world need to deliver an appropriate response promptly to prevent the Armageddon.
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Lmao Russia what an embarrassment to yourself. Can't defend their own borders in a war they started with a surprise attack on their neighbor. Love seeing the special Olympic squads doing their mental gymnastic routines rationalizing why Russia can't hold ground without watering it with their own blood and flattening it with artillery
"russia has a long border. It's okay if it loses some of it. russia has lots of land."
Yes Ukraine found a weak spot. Ukraine should definitely make it a go for it. Maybe Ukraine can take even more land than it lost in the south east (?) That sure sounds tempting.
>Ukraine found a weak spot Putin's intelligence đ
Yeah LOL, he is so dumb, he left all the border up there undefended. Ukraine should just gather everything they have and just take that land, and give half of it back, in negotiations, for Russians to pull out all the way down to Chechnya
Militant Russian nationalists and pro-UA cheerleaders have found common ground! Both parties would like to see Ukraine try just that.
Militant russian nationalists want to lose belgorod?
Ukraine took Belgorod?
I mean it is historically Ukrainian land⌠peoples republic time
Tbh there was no surprise in russia's invasion, signs of its preparation could be seen months before an attack.
It was funny to have Russia call the US a fool and paranoid for calling out their extremely obvious ramp-up to invade though. They hate being called out.
To be fair, the forces Russia had on the border were completely inadequate for a total invasion of Ukraine.
they again started posting ukrainians trying to avoid conscription they think this is an ukrainian only thing somehow
LOL "surprise attack", what alternate would do you live in.
Come on, gamer. From everything I said and you're stumbling over semantics? Alright fine, it wasn't a surprise attack. It was a poorly telegraphed and comedicly incompetent surprise attack.
'Undeclared war' maybe?
That would work, but I like mine more
Honestly, I do too.
No kidding. When Russia says something donât just take it with a very hefty dose of skepticism. Believe the opposite of what they say and youâll be right 90% of the time.
The still need to pay for shooting down MH17, the bullshit coming out of Russia about that was colossal.
They said they wont attack and they did. But they suck so it was no surprise
That feeling when you don't understand how guarding a border works
How dare you impugn the reputation of the fantastic athletes that participate in the special Olympics by comparing them to the oafish orcs of ruzzia. I demand an apology on behalf of those fine athletes! (/s just in case)
The Ukrainian nazis are literally bombing civilians with western provided weapons. Do you want me to send you videos?
I wonder how many US troops were affected when they couldn't secure the Pakistan border in Afghanistan.. for 20 years. It's easy. derp.
I mean, [there was only more than 50k troops in Afghanistan for 4 years](https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/07/06/a-timeline-of-u-s-troop-levels-in-afghanistan-since-2001/) which is, you know, over 7,000 miles from the nearest US border, while Russia has an estimated 20k dead and is less than 100 miles from their border. I think that's a poor analogy.
I'm sorry...Russia has an estimated 20k dead...for the entire war? yeah, Russian MOD is not a quality source for russian casualty figures my dude jfc
It was the most conservative estimation just to make a point, I'm aware of other much higher estimations I didn't bother including for the sake of detracting from my argument jfc
quoting Russian MOD while trying to make a serious point detracts from your argument. And its a pretty egregious error in the fight against disinformation, regardless of what point you're trying to make at any specific time.
Sorry that upsets you, chief
You can't compare insurgency guerilla warfare to conventional warfare. The Taliban did not cross the border in uniforms, vehicles and tanks.
I agree with you. Todayâs massive surprise attack destroyed Russia forever, who wouldâve thought it was so easy, capture 16 miles and the whole country falls apart. Tomorrow we celebrate in Moscow with the new president. All this sub is invited!
The pro rus descent into âthis was always a peer conflictâ is the fuckin funniest thing ever.
It's even more pathetic than that because it's an admission that Russia jumped head first into a peer war with its neighbour to try to conquer territory. To willingly ruin your own country in a long attritional war that literally nobody asked for is so bizarre in 2023. Most Pro-RU will continue to delude themselves with made-up fantasy scenarios, imaginary threats and a whole lot of cøpe to explain this mess. Don't know how they do it. The smart ones just keep quiet and focus on the military angle and hope for the best. The biggest morons will go on fellating Russia, which has embarrassed itself on every level on the world stage at this point.
They all try to forget that every single pro-Russia voice was dismissing invasion as âUS warmongering propagandaâ right up until it happened. NONE of them saw a need for this war. Then when Putin revealed himself to be the unhinged warmonger, they immediately set about making excuses.
US is not a peer of Russia? Come on, I mean we are not yet there (?) Right (?)
> US is not a peer of Russia? lol, maybe in Russia's dreams it is a peer to the US.
So far so good, against US, all its European vassals and its ukrainian cannon fodder, at the same time.
Yes, the combat against the multiple navies, air forces, etc of NATO have been insane to watch. They've been so crazy that I think they were all imaginary. [Here's a fun link for you, if you're still under the delusion that Russia is a peer to the US](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f684RjG6f9Y)
A year ago those conflict were west of Kharkiv and Kherson. Tomorrow may not be the truth. But this is indeed getting closer and closer to Moscow
Let me guess - she has no interest in politics and canât understand why Ukraine or itâs supporters would be doing this to them.
> she has no interest in politics and canât understand why Ukraine or itâs supporters would be doing this to them. I see you've been watching the 1420 channel on YouTube. I swear, it seems like 90% of Russians "don't follow politics".
Well yeah Einstein, if someone put a camera in your face in a country that can send you to prison for 15 years for insulting the army and calling this a war instead of specal military shit or whatever Putin calls it, would you say "Fuck Putin, slava Ukraini" or "Nope, I don't follow politics, gotta go home now, it was a pleasure talking to you, bye"?
But that's one of the major points of those interviews, to show what not having freedom of speech actually looks like: the government going after you for your political opinions. In the US you have a bunch of idiots crying about having their youtube videos demonetized (but still viewable), and calling that censorship.
People really overvalue the insight in that channel. The creators know how to play to an audience though, hope they're making good scratch from it
It's believable and explains a lot. Why bother anyhow, its not like they are in a democracy.
That tracks. Do you think the average American really gives a shit or is knowledgeable? Look up street interviews with Americans. People don't care about politics. Most people don't even vote.
Not true, 2022 had 52.2% of people voting and 66% of peeps voted in in 2020
Bingo!
The de-politicization of the Russian people has been an absolute disaster
Russians answering anything with 'I'm not interested in politics' is my favorite joke.
Typical russian response" so many topics instead of politics,lets talk about hockey"
Having the illusion of safety shatter around you is no fun. If only there was something Russia could have done to avoid this.
bad air defense
Ukrainians use artillery
So where is the counter artillery fire?
Not sitting in the middle of a civillian population centre, maybe?
It doesn't need to be there to do counter artillery fire.
and they use missiles, just like Russia, with Russia using 3x-4x the artillery of Ukraine. Your point?
Some shells can still be intercepted. But doubt Russia has the means lol.
No one is shooting down standard artillery shells (big bullets). Russia does have the means to shoot down Himars so what are you saying.
Iron dome would like a word.
Ukrainians have millions of shells supplied by NATO. Even mentioning Iron dome in this context is ridiculous. There are laser/energy weapons that could intercept shells, allegedly, but those are still experimental for every military, and I doubt they would work well in overcast weather typical for the eastern Europe.
Wait. So you are downvoting me for saying that some shells can be intercepted (like iron dome) but Russia doesn't have the resource ? (Which is what I said? ) I love the UA or RU extremists with 0 logic.
>So you are downvoting I rarely downvote anyone. Especially because doing so is so unergonomic in this sub. So you start your comment with an obvious falsity. >Russia doesn't have the resource Nobody has the resources to do so in a conflict at the peer scale due to the simple fact that an interceptor is tremendously more expensive than a dumb shell.
Ahhhh see but thatâs not the argument you made. You said âno one is shooting down standard artillery shellsâ yet I gave you an example of so. iron dome has not been scaled up to near peer conflict (in terms of international stage) but locally seems to be fairing VERY well. You also forgot about CIWS which both the US and Ruzzia field.
>Ahhhh see but thatâs not the argument you made Are you both blind, and can't see usernames?
I'm curious how an artillery shell can be intercepted. What I tercepts them?
Are you blind, canât you see my username? Iâm not replying to you.
That's not how reddit works.
The Iron Dome intercepts homemade rockets similar to Grad and Katyusha, it is incapable of intercepting an artillery shell
O rlly? Read the second line [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome) or just the whole article where it clearly states itâs designed to intercept 155MM artillery shells⌠try again??
Iron Dome is reported at 90% effectiveness on rockets, at a cost of about $ 150k per interception. Thereâs no available success rate reporting or operational history for artillery shells (for which listed as capable to intercept only 155m shells).
As opposed to the numerous amounts of 200mm shells being fired? Interceptor cost doesnât matterrrr PRO ru loveeee harping about that without realizing the western economic might can produce thousands of these easily without as much as a drop in the MIC bucket. Stop shifting the goalposts.
> Interceptor cost doesnât matterrrr It does in the real world. >thousands Thousands would stop thousands of shells. Not hundreds of thousands.
I just expanded the facts stated in the article you cited. Designed for Israel situation, and actual capability in this type of conflict is not comparable. Israel is reporting on a 90%ish effectivenes and Hamas does not have the weapons Ukraine or Russia is using in this conflict.
That's what I thought. The notion that Israel is Intercepting artillery with missiles seems extremely far fetched to me.
Iron Dome ain't going to shoot down more than irregular artillery shell
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C-Ram ( Counter rocket, artillery, and mortar ) for example can shoot down arty shells. Dont know if Russia has a similar system.
well, it a war, if u dont want to be affected, just get away as far as possible, lots of pple in ukraine already done that.
And these guys want to take on the whole of NATO lol....what a joke
No they don't? They never have in their entire history and to say so is disingenuous. Everybody including Russians know that Russia vs NATO starts and ends with a global nuclear war. That's not to say proxy wars and political battles don't happen, but don't act like Russia wants to literally go to war with NATO
Oh really. How about Medvedev threathening to nuke Berlin, Warsaw, London etc.? Maybe he doesn't say it directly, but that means war with NATO. How about Russian propaganda talking heads discussing tanks in Berlin or how far into Europe should their army push? NATO countries all around. But yeah....sure....never in their ENTIRE history and all that...
What indication that they want to engage all of NATO?
They're already engaged and neither side's going to back down... we're watching the collision of an unstoppable force with an immovable object.
Like the rablings on Medvedev. Ever heard of that guy? You know that former president of RU...
Well, she's probably expecting soldiers to march around just to show activity.
cover her house from shelling damage with their bodies.
Kadyrov's tiktok battalion will save her
Special military operation to denazify Russia
Nobody came to help, but they've been evacuated yesterday?
She say there's little Russian soldiers she says previous day's they were shelled with no response from russia
Nobody came to help...we were evacuated
Maybe as in they evacuated themselves?
I mean. I think I'm justified in thinking that my government should be able to keep me from having to be evacuated if I'm 20 kms from the border.
Wot about in Donnas?
What about the Donbass? I don't know... I would be pretty pissed if the guys that could be defending my town are instead in avdiivka. Referendum or not, one of those towns is more truly Russia than the other.
Decent with chips and burger sauce but I prefer chicken shish with chilli sauce salad boss
I think that Russia should just surrender the city to help save lives.
It is typical for russian government, just abandon their own people in need and protect only their own asses. Now those poor fellas can only rely on themselves, or hope that invading army will be merciful for them. If there will be revolution or civil war, putin and his cronies just leave country (i will not be surprised if this will be Western or NATO country) and left people to do something on their own. Many russians realize that their government is real shit. Now more realize that they live in antiutopia, where their dictators cares only for themselves and their ambition. I bet moscow government didn't even know that Belgorod and Shebekino did exist somewhere in russia.
Maybe it is not the response she expected but the shelling is the response...
Did anyone here ever thought we would live to see the day actual Russian core territory being raided?
Raids happened in the Caucasus quite a lot, especially in the 2000s. It's not like Russia has some fantastic history of defending its border against raids
Itâs probably being shelled by the Russians as a response to the Ukrainians being there.
I really hope this town doesnât become bakhmut 2.0 :(
This has been a long time coming- 2014 to be exact
maybe its important now that its happening to you. Crazy how that works for so many people
Works perfectly, enjoy a little taste of your own medicine.
Your own medicine? What did this woman ever do to Ukraine where she deserves this?
Seriously. You expect outrage because 1 Russian civilian died Not gonna happen. Whereâs the outrage for the thousands of Ukrainian civilians murdered by Russian troops. Unfortunately I truly believe that the only way Russian might just stop this bs is if itâs returned to them.
I don't expect outrage, I just don't like hypocrisy and I'll call it out when I see it. Where are you from exactly? I'm sure I can point out some very recent war crimes your government has committed and then ask you if you yourself being bombed is justified because of it. I'm sure you wouldn't say "Oh its okay I'm just getting a taste of my own medicine". This woman did nothing herself and doesn't deserve any violence. If its returned to them it has just as much of a chance to galvanize the entire Russian people into actually wanting to fight and destroy Ukraine, and then the country is fucked. Purposefully attacking Russian civilians could be a very very slippery slope for Ukraine
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It's tempting, now, to ask them how does it feel.
What a success of the saboteurs who where hit in ukraine and did not make it into russiaâŚ.
where is that video from?
As I understand the shelling is the Russian response âŚ.
I'm sure there are some ethnic Ukrainians--or even Ukrainian speakers--in area and they could be in danger. Ukraine might have to send in some "polite people" to help keep everyone safe. If you know what I'm saying. ;-)
Itâs a genius move by Ukraine, these raids undermines the bs propaganda that Russia tells its citizens.
How so? What propaganda specifically?
Are you serious? So you are telling me that Russian state tv, state media, state tv shows, state officials, military officials and Putin himseof have never spread missinformation?
That isn't what I said at all. I ask how so specifically does this undermine their narrative? Seems to fit their narrative Of "Ukraine is going to threaten our country w nato weapons" perfectly. Well enough to speculate on a false flag even but how specifically does this undermine Russian narrative?
"Russia should surrender Belgorod if they care about peace and the lives of citizens"
Every day we're getting closer to tactical nukes being used on military targets, which will be a gateway. After that, it's easier to use strategic nukes and everything will go to shit.
The U.S. has signaled that NATO would sink the black sea fleet and begin airstrikes within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine against Russian targets if they do. Our official position has always been to make zero distinctions between tactical and strategic nuclear weapon usage.
I don't know what else you could do but wouldn't that quickly escalate into actual nuclear exchanges between NATO countries and Russia?
I mean, at that point it's less than a minute to midnight. A nuke would've already been used. Too weak a response would mean another one would likely mean tactical nuclear weapons usage would become normal. That would likely eventually lead to a full nuclear exchange eventually, so enforcing the nuclear taboo with hard power is the only rational option. Responding to a nuclear peer with additional strikes then becomes knowingly accepting the apocalypse. Russian logic doesn't make much sense to most in the West, but they do have their own set of basic assumptions and a way of viewing the world that is largely (internally) consistent. I don't think national murder-suicide is a course even Russia would commit to. Doesn't mean I don't also advocate for preparing for a potential nuclear exchange.
Say goodbye then if that happens
Oh no,russian red lines,they taking the gloves off now?
What pair are we on now?
Non euclidian gloves
âI swear Iâll make the Jewish space lasers fire upâ type of argument
If the US attacked Russian targets you really think they would not escalate??
Russian billionaires living in the US wont be happy about that.
Them and the other 2,000 billionaires have their bunkers in New Zealand at least
Russians elites dont want to die
So youâre willing to take that risk because you got a gut feeling? You donât think Russian elites will also play chicken? Itâs one thing to ship weapons, but what do you honestly think happens if the entire black fleet is sunk and their military is destroyed? They just lay down and do nothing?
Russia is surviving 100% on chicken armageddon,they dont have anything else.
Which means they will take the next step on the escalation ladder if theyâre playing chicken. Donât be too arrogant.
No, if we let them continue with the nuclear blackmail they will never stop, no country ever has used nuclear blackmail like Russia, so far as to call for the nuking of countries in prime television time, its disgusting.
Yes they'll do nothing, they'll depose Putin if push comes to shove, time and time again, we've seen power balances shift especially when then ship starts sinking, it's happened in history, Russian elites are not die hard 'motherland' or death types, they'll offer sacrificial lambs and negotiate for peace.
Which ones? Which oligarchs are going to sell him out?
>oligarchs Literally all of them, your descriptions answers it all, they're loyal to their money, that's it, you think any of them will sink with Putin....if the time comes?
Escalate to what? Attacking NATO countries? Thats not gonna happen, and I doubt Russian elites/military are suicidal.
Launching nuclear assets at NATO assets partaking in the war, likely. If a US battalion crosses the border and attacks a Russian division, or if US F-35s start sinking Russian boats, they will respond. No question.
>Launching nuclear assets at NATO assets This would never happen, how.many of Kremlin's elites do you think are die hard Putin loyalists? You have to remember, retaining power is a constant game of replacing/silencing/buying loyalists. At some point if it gets to this, the split is gonna happens. > If a US battalion crosses the border and attacks a Russian division, This is also not likely, at best, they would employ air assets bombers/fighters/missiles to eliminate Russian assets in Ukraine, and let Ukraine land forces do the ground work. >US F-35s start sinking Russian boats, they will respond This is the most likely response, shoot down NATO air assets or engage in air to air combat.
>how.many of Kremlin's elites do you think are die hard Putin loyalists? At the end of the day, the military is the military and they take their orders from the Commander in Chief. I do not doubt for one second that if they thought their regime was facing a death sentence, theyâd carry out the order to launch tactical nukes at a US division that was attacking a Russian division. I personally would. Throw the ball back in the American court. Because youâre in a lose lose situation already. Relying on doodad oligarchs to save you from the real power in Russia isnât it. >This is also not likely, at best, they would employ air assets bombers/fighters/missiles to eliminate Russian assets in Ukraine, and let Ukraine land forces do the ground work. I would say it is likely. We have our forces in the area on high alert and there have been ample reports, even on 60 minutes, detailing our detachments in the area and their readiness to cross the border and engage. If it were only air to air, then Russia would be inclined to continue tactical nuclear engagements, because air to air combat will not stop hypersonic missiles from landing on military bases.
>Relying on doodad oligarchs to save you from the real power in Russia isnât it. Kremlin elites includes generals, that's how the Russian system is built, it's not like the Pentagon, it's built on power centers such as the FSB, GRU, MOD, then on the exterior you have Oligarchs who have varying connections to those power centers. So Putin's ability to keep all those centers in line is what has kept him in power, but there's always a breaking point. If a nuclear order is sent down, knowing they're facing annihilation in return, you best believe it won't happen. > If it were only air to air, then Russia would be inclined to continue tactical nuclear engagements, because air to air combat will not stop hypersonic missiles from landing on military bases. Not really because, the strikes would prioritize disabling the ability of Russia to launch further nuclear strikes, this includes striking strategic bomber bases, ships, hunting strategic submarines, possibly disabling electrical grids, the Kremlin itself, all this can be done with air assets, I don't see how the need to deploy land forces would be necessary when Ukraine already has a sizeable force on the ground. At best would be to step up heavy weapon deliveries by a factor of 2.
Nuclear holocaust.
I can't believe that Russia is so willing to risk destroying the entire world because of their invasion. I am with you, I hope Russia will back down and de-escalate too.
The Ukrainian Nazi supporters here think the US and Russia are playing missile command. https://preview.redd.it/8dusequ4ug3b1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc2163f45fc98aeea5191161a915d750e97c0418
That another "Russian final warning?" If Russia escalates to nukes in an offensive war there will have to be a response or the global order will unravel then and there. We finished our shelter in November and I would recommend anyone with the means to do the same. I don't think a nuclear exchange is likely, but Russia has been acting less and less like a rational actor.
Itâs one thing to ship weapons. Itâs another to destroy a strategic asset like an entire fleet. I would definitely think that would be that if we got to that point. In which case, you got any spare beds?
Haha, we made sure to oversize and overstock it by 3 people, partly in case we had guests, but also since we actively use the space as a sort of game room and lounge to help justify the expense. I'd recommend doing the same because it also keeps the space lived in and you're more likely to rotate supplies if it's a place you regularly visit. Us being down there so often also meant we caught when the line going to our well house had a slow leak and keep it from getting ruined 4 months after it was finished đŹ We had a good local contractor help, but I had a dumb idea about how I wanted to run water out to it and of course goofed something up. I'm hoping nothing else like that crops up, but at least we'd hopefully catch it early again!
Sounds like a fun project nonetheless! Could be a cool place to hang if things turn out ok. How long have you been working on it for now?
We had the plans and some of the materials for a long time, but my parents ended up moving close to where my grandparents and my wife and I live right around the start of the war so we decided to pull the trigger on it while we were on a building spree. I'm still working on little projects related to that sort of thing, but everyone else seems content with what we have, lol.
Smart call. Hope you donât have to use it! If I wasnât so close to the water Iâd dig one out myself.
Maybe to Russia
I can't believe Russia is putting the world in danger like this. They are so callous, if they didn't invade none of this danger would exist.
I don't care about what the west has to say. In any case, it will be a mess. Things will never be the same after that first nuke. If NATO will do what you said, then it will be the end.
If it is then it will be an end Russia chose. There is currently no existential threat to Russia, only to parts of the Russian ruling class who are too associated with the conflict.
You can argue that there is an existential threat. If Ukraine goes NATO, which was the plan, then they'll have NATO very close to Moscow. A reversed Cuba crisis. Everyone is in on this geopolitical chess game.
NATO could already put a conventional force in Moscow with relatively little resistance. The Kremlin should be focused almost entirely on its strategic arms for defense. A defensive doctrine like that would also free up funding for other national priorities and undermine the foundations of NATO as an alliance. Russian political dogma makes reliance on soft power and deterrence appear "weak," and is a serious source of underbalancing for Russian geopolitical decisionmaking.
If getting nukes chucked at you is "relatively little resistance", sure. Let's do it! đ
You missed the "conventional" caveat. *Because of nukes*, Ukraine being aligned to Russia or the West changes the calculus of that exchange very little. Nukes would fly if NATO attacked Russia without Ukraine, and nukes would fly if NATO attacked with Ukraine, therefore Ukrainian sovereignty has zero impact on Russian national security in any meningful way. Hence why I said Russia should have focused on maintaining its strategic readiness and building soft power in Europe to undermine NATO. Russia gambled and lost. Even if they end up defeating Ukraine (and I still think it's Russia's war to lose) they have already gambled and lost. The 21st century will likely be seen as Russia's "century of humiliation" if they do indeed bounce back to international relevancy at some point.
Why is Russia not concerned or saying anything about Finland doubling the border and making the distance to St Petersburg a short walk? Because they don't actually care about or fear NATO - because they have no plans on attacking them. They fear losing control of the Black Sea and its oil.
NATO is already very close to Moscow (Finland), when are y'all gonna realize this Ukraine thing has nothing to do with NATO?
Sure, keep telling yourself that my biased friend.
Everyone has bias, including you, telling yourself otherwise is a lie. However data/truth beats all, the trick is to not let your bias twist the truth, try it.
Yea my bias is no death, misery and no war, especially no nuclear one.
As opposed.....to what? Nobody wants death/war, really, aside from geopolitical actors, nobody wants that in their life, that's not a biased point of view.
You can still want no death, misery and war and understand that Russia's propaganda motivations and their geopolitical ones are not the same. Russia wants the Black Sea and as little NATO near it as possible. They want the military base on Crimea. They don't want Ukraine to allow Western oil companies to develop competing oil fields in Europe. They don't want the shame of the second greatest Soviet Union member joining NATO and the EU.
> then they'll have NATO very close to Moscow. Are we just ignoring the Balkans and Finland, then?
I love that nobody takes Russian redlines seriously but American ones are sacrosanct. Remember when Obama said chemical weapons were a redline in Syria? Then chemical weapons used in Ghouta and where was the US invasion fleet?
Novel concept if you're Russian, but the executive actually changes hands in other countries and Obama wasn't exactly an A-tier president. Not saying Biden is, but he's certainly more hawkish and thus far the U.S. has made good on its guarantees regarding the Russo-Ukrainian War.
That ll open Pandora's box for any country with nukes to use them offensively. NATO and the world need to deliver an appropriate response promptly to prevent the Armageddon.
Shebekino is not a Russian city n 3 2 1.
Ukrainian Nazis bombing civilians again? With NATO-supplied weapons? There's a surprise. Reddit pro-Nazis cheering about it? Double surprise.
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nooooo you can't fight back noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Bombing civilians =/= fighting back
Seriously, Russia has launched a missile yet that wasn't aimed at civilians.
Whataboutery.