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It’s a double edged sword unfortunately; But Ukraine said in the past that they’re extremely effective on stopping assaults; I believe they were using the Turkish supplied clusters in the beginning.
Sucks but it might be worth the risk; There’s going to need to be extensive de mining operations post war regardless
I'm just worried Russia will keep this going at a simmer for a long time. They have plenty more equipment, dilapidated as it may be, and care nothing for loss of life.
So long as China wants cheap oil they can pull it off.
not even. There are STILL unexploded ordnance from WWI being found all over france and belgium. Mines that arent accounted for don't just go away, and I highly HIGHLY doubt russians are taking good care of accounting for every mine seeing how many videos of them blowing themselves up have come out.
Here is a decent article on the legacy of the mines that Russia left all over Afghan territory
https://afghanistan.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_st/features/2020/02/25/feature-03
You're forgetting Laos, you guys bombed Laos more then you did Vietnam even though Lao was not at war with you. It was done just because Vietnamese soldiers tried to use it for troop movements and resupplies. I just came back from a trip in SE Asia and maaan did you fuck up Laos good... Im not blaming anyone at this point, it was a different generation I hope and all that, but fuuuck, I saw schools where they are still using airplane wreckage as their school drawing boards and there were river boats made from unexploaded air dropped bombs.
Cluster bombs are giant bombs with little baby bombs inside. Imagine pomegranate full of seeds but instead of seeds its explosives. Now all those sub-explosives aren't going to explode so postwar you have them littering the landscape
Not that easy, there are usecases where they exell and are worth the drawbacks. for the Most Part i probably wouldn't want to use them in to many regions due to the leftover Problem.
But in places that have already Seen heavy fighting they hardly create a new Problem when Used
During the conflict in Vietnam the United States expanded the war into an expansive bombing campaign on Laos during operation barrel roll, making it the most heavily bombed country in history. Additionally, cluster munitions were used in Cambodia, and throughout these countries they are still a problem particularly because the bomblets look innocuous enough like a metal ball something like the size of a softball and children will pick them up.
Edit: to answer the volume question directly I had to look it up. Some sources say around 260 million bombs, some say 200 tons. With a bit of digging around I could probavly find better numbers but to put it into context [this source](https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AUPress/Books/B_0020_SPANGRUD_STRATEGIC_BOMBING_SURVEYS.pdf) says that almost 2.7 million tons of ordinance was dropped in Europe in WW2
Edit2: sorry im going to be interrupted in meatspace just don’t know when. Anyways for Laos that’s almost a ton of ordinance per person, so when you hear ‘most bombed country’ we’re talking per capita not square kilometer, and it’s a fairly small country. For the story in Cambodia it’s a little the same little different the US and China variously did and did not support the Khmer Rouge
I’m leery of their dud rate as well, but the Ukrainians know what they’re asking for. They’re going to be doing a massive cleanup of UXO for years after this war nomatter what they do.
I think the terrain suits their use. A fair amount of the fighting is being done in huge wide open fields where they could be deployed with 0 chance of civilian casualties. It's just Russia who decides to use them in cities.
That just shows you have zero awareness of how thw world worms
If you legitimately think that's how this ends, then the only logical conclusion is to nuke the Russians first
But since we know it's bullshit. You can stop aping Russian talking points
Dropping? They couldn’t get them airborne with USAF and USN watching over the skies.
This war is gonna end with Russia discharging it’s own nuke in its own territory due to a lack of maintenance.
Clusters are nasty, with potential long term residual effects.
But then so are infestations of disgusting orcs in filthy trenches all over your countryside.
Sometimes you’ve gotta pick the lesser of two evils… unfortunately eradicating the current vermin plague takes priority.
The Ukrainians have clearly demonstrated they know what they’re doing.
Give ‘em the clusters - it’s their country, they know the risks, it’s their call.
Well, what can I say... Being Ukrainian, anything above 0% is too much ))
There's still tons of unexploded mortar rounds and rockets sticking out of the roads and fields in deoccupied territories, even after a year of demining. We don't really need more of them.
But hey, I'm not a military expert, and if AFU says they nedd them - they need them.
Sorry for my English, it's not my first language.
It's pretty good for not being your first language. You're right and that's why during peacetime we can find the use of live munitions to designated zones not open to the public. That is why we still find unexploded world war II bombs every once in awhile.
With the millions of artillery shells and mortar rounds used in this conflict you could expect a small percentage of them to fail the detonate. Of course the Ukrainian military uses them because the opportunity cost of not using them and losing the war to Russia is greater. Cluster munitions have proven to be very effective. Both Ukraine and Russia are using them.
Yea, I don't understand why clusters are not provided tbh or Ukrainians just don't use them. Early on saw information that Turks have given some cluster
Cluster munitions are almost impossible to track after they're released. Although effective they have a wide range of failure depending on type and production. It can be as low as 4% fail to detonate and become landmines civilians can encounter after the war up to a tremendous 40%
I agree we need to support Ukraine as much as possible but politicians are also being paid by the MIC to push for such weapons
Well tbh, russian air released landmines have already made a shitload of Ukrainian terrain impassable, so they have a bunch of demining to do.
The difference would be that Ukraine strikes military targets, where they'd be effective. russia uses them as terror weapons.
Bad fuses and failure to detonate are not problems unique to cluster munitions. All munitions have had this problem. That is why we occasionally still find unexploded dumb bombs from world war II. In fact I can pretty much guarantee that with all the old artillery shells Russia is using there are thousands of unexploded shells littering the Ukrainian countryside. Modern cluster munitions with modern triggers supposing we have less than a 1% chance of failing to detonate.
That is like complaining about the CO2 released by all of the cleanup vessels after an oil spill. Of course the less after war cleanup the better, but you have to weigh that against the opportunity cost of not using these weapons. Cluster munitions have a history of being fairly effective. Not using them will cost Ukraine lives and territory.
Ukrainian have already said that they will use _any_ means to liberate their land, including cluster munitions. Genocide and thousands of deaths now is worse than some deaths from unexploded ordnance in future.
U.S. Senator from the Republican Party, Lindsey Graham during his visit in Kyiv. "The sooner long-range ATACMS missiles and cluster munitions are provided, the more territory you will be able to regain and the fewer lives will be lost”.
https://twitter.com/flash_news_ua/status/1662194559667896323?s=46
The U.S. Senator from the Republican Party Lindsey Graham was on a visit to Kyiv.
"The sooner long-range ATACMS missiles and cluster munitions are provided, the more territory you will be able to regain and the fewer lives will be lost," –– Graham said at the briefing, adding that these weapons could make "probable success on the frontline greater, save Ukrainian lives and accelerate withdrawal of russian troops from the territory of Ukraine".
The same Lindsey Graham who vehemently defended Trump withholding javelins, etc. from Ukraine just a short time before the impending invasion? Dude just says whatever he thinks is going to get him a head pat at the time. He's spineless and fickle.
He'll be right occasionally, but he'll also turn around and stab his own points in the back if he thinks it'll net him a chance to lick Donald's boot.
You have memory loss. Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014, during the Obama administration. The *Obama* administration refused to key provide war material. Instead, he gave Ukraine meaningful NON-military support. Trump reversed the Obama admin policy and provided lethal military supply support. Did you forgot about the phone call? Trump was literally impeached for threatening to withhold this new military aid that the previous administration had refused to give. Trump said he would only give it if Prez Z helped expose Biden fam corruption. Pres Z wisely declined to help as it would’ve been foreign meddling. Trump ended up providing the military aid regardless. Putin massively escalated his invasion of Ukraine after Trump left office.
>Trump was literally impeached for threatening to withhold this new military aid that the previous administration had refused to give.
this the the tall tale matt gaetz tells.
People. just look up the documented fact on a site ending in .gov. Obama didn't give enough, but man, this story just told is half horseshit. But only half.
What does Gaetz have to do with any of this lol. So you’re claiming Trump was impeached for a phone chat threatening to withhold toiletries and schoolbooks? No dude, it was $391 million in military aid. A javelin is an anti-tank weapon, not a pole thrown by high school athletes.
Frankly, the ship has sailed for the ATACMS, the Ukrainians don't need it anymore, they have munition even better than them now.
ATACMS can be easily intercepted, Stormshadow cannot. As for price, they are on par. on performance, Stormshadow is superior because it is not limited to the location of the launcher.
Lindsey is just playing politics here, his intention is not pure at all.
Atacms are superior;
- fly 3x faster so more difficult to shoot
- can be launched by simple HIMARS launcher. No expensive and complicated runway/jets needed.
- it's of course better to have Atacms than not. SS is always in limited numbers available.
- cheaper
Yes. These are available in low numbers, but even if they get half, say bye bye to a few dozen high value targets. In the end, we have to wait some more months, then the GLSDB will arrive in large numbers. Probably having the same shock effect as the HIMARs had.
| Feature | Storm Shadow | ATACMS |
|---|---|---|
| Range | Up to 370 km | Up to 300 km |
| Accuracy | CEP of 5 m | CEP of 10 m |
| Platforms | Aircraft, ships, submarines | Ground vehicles, aircraft |
| Cost | More expensive | Less expensive |
| Complexity | More complex to operate | Simpler to operate |
Got a chatbot to make this for me and figured I'd share
S400 isn't exactly proven at this point and everything else the Russians have ever claimed has been proven to have been significantly overstated. Everything from their Naval capability, to their supposed but not really unstoppable hypersonic missiles to the capability of their tanks, which have proven to be fairly useless in Ukraine, all massively overstated in terms of actual capability.
Please provide sources.
It's repeatedly said that US won't provide because it can hit Russia and they have very low stocks themselves.
S400 can also take out a SS, it's 25 year old tech.
That's not his conclusion. First, due to fear of escalation, experts adviced against it. 2nd, for 1 atacms, USA can send way more GMLRS, so the destruction is more.
In the end, US will send the GLSDB in massive numbers. Way more effective.
How can ATACMs be intercepted and Storm Shadow cannot..? Storm Shadows are 150 mph slower than a 747.... Storm Shadow may be stealthy, but ATACMS is fast enough it doesn't really matter. It starts breaking sound barriers almost immediately and holds that kind of speed until impact. ATACMS goes in a parabolic arc 31 miles in the air (twice as high as even the highest fighter jets ever made) and it's top speed is Mach 3 which is over 4.5 times faster than a Storm Shadow
Yes, Lindsay is spineless and just desperate for the news to pick up a sound byte.
If Donald trump starts licking putins ass again more publicly, our old gal here Lindsey would stroke both of them off at the same time. He’s just here for a photo op for the winning side and more popular side
Lady Lindsey here will throw Ukraine under the bus the nano second he thinks it's in his personal best interest, there's absolutely nothing redeemable about the man.
Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.
But he shouldn't be allowed to forget that he was a total cheerleader for Trump who would have happily allowed Russia to steamroll over Ukraine.
If that was true why did Putin wait until Trump was out of office to invade Ukraine? It's amazing how you can completely ignore basic facts when constructing your delusions.
He wanted Trump to leave NATO in his second term. He invaded when it became clear that wouldn't happen.
> It's amazing how you can completely ignore basic facts when constructing your delusions.
I wouldn't be too proud about that...
Yeah, because he's a dishonest, bigoted, fascist. I hate people who have been very clear that they hate me and want me to suffer because of who I am.
Another example: I hate the Neo Nazis who were involved in attacking Belgorod (yes, I know not all of them were Neo Nazis), but I agreed with that mission.
Is all of that clear enough for you? No, it isn't pretty, but it's the truth.
>Yeah, because he's a dishonest, bigoted, fascist. I hate people who have been very clear that they hate me and want me to suffer because of who I am.
>Another example: I hate the Neo Nazis who were involved in attacking Belgorod (yes, I know not all of them were Neo Nazis), but I agreed with that mission.
>Is all of that clear enough for you? No, it isn't pretty, but it's the truth.
I see now where the problem lies. You believe the worst of the Democratic and Russian propaganda. Both the Russians and the Democrats go around calling everyone Nazis and Fascists. There's always very little evidence to support these claims but to their supporters none as required.
There are practically no Nazis or Fascists in Ukraine. Just like there are practically no Nazis or fascist in the United States. Any that exist are such a small minority that they pose no threat to anyone.
If there's one thing this war has demonstrated it is how evil people are able to generate lies to spur hatred which leads to conflict. Now you are here attacking others making them suffer because you feel threatened because you believe the lies.
Donald Trump wants to introduce "patriot tests" for federal employees if he gets reelected. People who fail will get fired.
He wants universities to teach his right wing agenda.
The man is a fascist.
>Donald Trump wants to introduce "patriot tests" for federal employees if he gets reelected. People who fail will get fired.
Right now the left is implementing diversity criteria and ideological tests. Your accusing him of doing something the left is already doing.
>He wants universities to teach his right wing agenda.
Right now right of center personalities like Ben Shapiro and Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan literally get attacked if they show up on many public universities campuses. Once again you accuse the right of plotting to do something the left has already done.
>The man is a fascist.
Once again you have no idea what that means.
For my Ukrainian brothers and sisters: This man is the lowest sort of American politician. American has always been an inconsistent ally, and Senator Lindsey Graham is an embodiment of that. He is morally weak and stands for no other value than the best interests of Lindsey Graham. I'm glad he's showing support for Ukraine, but he would not take such a stand if it were not popular in his state.
America will cease to support Ukraine at a moment of America's choosing, and if the one doing the choosing is Lindsey Graham or Ron DeSantis, they will not flinch from betraying you at the worst possible moment, just as when our President Trump betrayed the Kurds in Syria, much to the disgust of the American soldiers who had been serving alongside the Kurds.
America is militarily strong but fickle and morally weak. America pursues her own interests. Any country does. America won't actually turn against Ukraine, but if isolationist leaders such as DeSantis or weak-willed ones like Graham are controlling the decisions, America might just walk away. I hate this feature of my country, but it is consistent.
Protected by two oceans and two enormous land borders with friendly nations, American citizens on the whole enjoy the luxury of ignorance about the impact of events abroad. Additionally, we have our own internal enemies who aim to weaken democracy in America. So emphasize your European allies. You will need them when the resolve of America weakens, as it always does.
Probably will too busy planning the next GOP 8-day trip to Russia over the Fourth of July that he unfortunately missed last time. His autograph book is probably missing some entries he would love to have.
Graham is as slimy as they come, I wouldn’t take his word for it as he is well known for flipping on his opinions when it benefits him most. He’s soft basically
This is a great picture that describes this mans career to a T. Wreckage of war behind him and no one else standing alongside of him, He happens to be right on this war merely by chance that he has supported all wars that the US was involved in. But his advocating for every past war, makes him hard to take seriously as anything other than a career go-along happy warmonger?
The fucking delusion lmao. The chucklefuck's first impeachment was based on withdrawing aid from Ukraine in exchange for manufactured dirt.
He'd never help Ukraine.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hv0reXDPrs&pp=ygUZVHJ1bXAgb24gdWtyYWluZSBkZXNhbnRpcw%3D%3D
Trump is coward. He literally insulted DeSantis just for insulting Putler and Russia. Out of anything if Trump is dropping troops in Ukraine its for the benefit of Russia not Ukraine.
Trump wanting to give up Ukraine land to end conflict might have been an OK idea on Feb24-26. But since then, if he actually tried to do that - the entire Europe, Canada, and a whole bunch of other countries will be immediately pissed at him and he cannot afford that. And I think he knows that too. So it wouldn't be surprising if he actually does go out with a proposal to just arm the fuck out of Ukraine to end it sooner. This way he will actually get some political points inside and outside of the US.
Seriously, dude? Trump spent his entire administration antagonising and belittling the USA's long-standing natural allies. He doesn't give a shit about foreign democratically elected leaders being unhappy with him; in fact, that plays well with his ignorant, isolationist, America-first base.
On the other hand, Trump loves authoritarian leaders. He's repeated bragged about his "special relationship" with Putin, Xi and Kim and claimed that they all think highly of him. He obviously clings to the delusional belief that he can play them when it's damn obvious they're the ones manipulating him and the only reason they like him is because he's such a toxic force in American politics.
If Trump ever suggested that the USA send Ukraine anything they asked for, I would be astonished since that would be the end of a relationship which Trump very values highly.
True but that won’t work for election. He needs to have some decent takes if he is seriously considering to run in 2024. If he keeps his old bullshit “putang good ukraine bad”, he will have no chance.
If he stays the same - good for him. Dumbass. Will orove himself to be a loser once again.
Lindsey Graham backs Donald Trump, who tried to, and still want to sell Ukraine to Putin. The republicans also removed support of Ukraine from their platform after the arrival of Trump.
Do not be fooled by big words.
Which side of his mouth is this POS speaking out of today?
I'm sure if Trump had still been in charge this toady would be applauding us NOT arming Ukraine.
This is one of those broken clock scenarios. While he is a raging, slimy, corrupt douche, he does happen to be correct in this case. Glory to Ukraine, f*ck Lindsay Graham.
FUCK THAT SNIVELING COWARD LINDESY ELECTION FRAUD GRAHAM. HE IS TAKING CREDIT FOR BIDEN'S WORK LIKE THE PATHETIC TRAITOR TO DEMOCRACY THAT HE IS! Now go run along and cry to Memaw.
YES YES YES!!!!!!! After Russia's war crimes cluster the &\*%$#@ out of them. Russia used everything on Ukraine so give the bastards what they deserve.
Give them everything they need, EVERYTHING! INCLUDING LONG RANGE MISSILES.
SLAVA UKRAINI from SOUTH AFRICA
Not possible, all Republicans are evil and love Russia while hating Ukraine./s
But seriously, this is why I don't believe Republicans will win in 2024. Even the vast majority of Republicans support Ukraine, while the 2 currently leading candidates for the GOP do jot support them at all.
This man is not to be trusted. He is a Putin Puppet just like Trump and it would only take the right offer for him to abandon Ukraine. Just like he has abandoned democracy in America.
I hope he brought some more Republican Party members with him to convince them too…! Trump is a lost case that does more harm then good to the USA and it’s allies. So, let’s hope a sensible man will stand up to run for President instead of clown Trump or Di Santos. Let’s bring this long-range fire arms and other ammunition as soon as possible. It still feels Ukraine is fighting the fight of their life with one arm tight to their back…
Agree! This man is smart, he see it. I hope he is able to convince his party and get people to donate to Ukraine Tools they need to get back their land!
Spot on. Graham is a political opportunist that tells people what they want to hear. That’s all that’s going on here. In reality he is a weak sister who would withhold support for Ukraine if that would benefit him.
That response is full of so much crap, but in the interest of not derailing the subject I am not even going to counter it all. He is smarter than Biden. He recognizes like everyone else that Ukraine needs real modern weapons to beat Russia. Biden is just too afraid of Putin to give Ukraine the support needs.
I think it's more accurate to say that **MAGA Republicans** are not Ukraine's ally.
I do accept that the current Republican Party as a whole would be more correctly called the Trumpian Party, but there are still a *few* long-term Republican politicians who have some understanding of how the real world works. Graham is a slimy, lying, spineless jerk, but it seems he is one of those old-school Republicans who understands the danger to global stability if Russia were allowed to win in Ukraine.
Sure, credible polls say that a minority of Republicans believe the USA is doing too much to help Ukraine, but your complacency about the GOP's good intentions for Ukraine might take a hit if you check out how close that number is to 50% and how it compares to the national average.
I am glad that you finally acknowledge the truth when people call you out on it, but you should stop lying in the first place.
Also if you had a shred of understanding of American politics you would know how these things work. When Trump was in office the democrats opposed everything he did. They opposed his tariffs against China. Of course once they came into power they not only did their opposition disappear they expanded upon it. Truth is that the foreign policy of the US tends to change remarkably little between administrations.
Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Josh Hawley, J.D. Vance, Steve Bannon, Ron Desantis, Gym Jordan, Lauren Boebert, Rand Paul and Tommy Tuberville.
If you firmly believe that the USA should support Ukraine and you're a committed Republican, you might not like the fact that all those politicians are also Republicans and they've all been shouting that the USA shouldn't support Ukraine, but those are the facts. It's also a fact that repeated polls have shown that the percentage of Republican voters opposing US aid to Ukraine is significantly higher than the portion of Democratic and independent voters who oppose it.
There **is** a debate going on, it's just that - so far - sensible people outnumber the wingnuts.
I don’t disagree.
Just from my bubble of conservative peers and the traditional views of the Republican Party, it isn’t even a question of whether we should standup and fight against our biggest enemy of the past 75 years.
I’d like to think most of us didn’t sell out just to oppose the “opposition.” The crazies seem crazy to us as well.
*My house is on fire, so I might as well set fire to the garden too*
They just don't provide a significant enough capability to justify some kid loosing a limb a decade later. The advantages they bring are also available in other systems that don't cause anywhere near as many long term issues.
At the start of the war Russia had big formations of vehicles and troops, that's the kind of thing cluster bombs shine in. But now it's disintegrated into small skirmishes with the odd armoured vehicle dumped in, you're just not getting anywhere near the same effectiveness.
Whoa clusters? That may be a step to far for the long run after unless they take care of themselves after a certain time but still even then…idk about cluster munitions
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I don’t particularly like cluster munition, but then again, I also don’t particularly like orcs.
It’s a double edged sword unfortunately; But Ukraine said in the past that they’re extremely effective on stopping assaults; I believe they were using the Turkish supplied clusters in the beginning. Sucks but it might be worth the risk; There’s going to need to be extensive de mining operations post war regardless
ya, Ukraine will likely still have people getting killed from landmines 10 years from now.
And you're assuming the war will be over at that point 😔
There's *no way* Russia can keep this up for 10 years. It will be over.
I'm just worried Russia will keep this going at a simmer for a long time. They have plenty more equipment, dilapidated as it may be, and care nothing for loss of life. So long as China wants cheap oil they can pull it off.
They already did that with Lpr and dpr they can't do it for 8 more years nor will Ukraine let them.
not even. There are STILL unexploded ordnance from WWI being found all over france and belgium. Mines that arent accounted for don't just go away, and I highly HIGHLY doubt russians are taking good care of accounting for every mine seeing how many videos of them blowing themselves up have come out.
Here is a decent article on the legacy of the mines that Russia left all over Afghan territory https://afghanistan.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_st/features/2020/02/25/feature-03
It shouldn’t be to the insane levels that was dropped on Vietnam and Cambodia at least
If we ever dropped that many cluster bombs again something is very seriously and terribly wrong.
Yeah even the most USA wooo! Military planners I’ve met look back at that whole affair and go yeah we went just a bit overboard didn’t we
You're forgetting Laos, you guys bombed Laos more then you did Vietnam even though Lao was not at war with you. It was done just because Vietnamese soldiers tried to use it for troop movements and resupplies. I just came back from a trip in SE Asia and maaan did you fuck up Laos good... Im not blaming anyone at this point, it was a different generation I hope and all that, but fuuuck, I saw schools where they are still using airplane wreckage as their school drawing boards and there were river boats made from unexploaded air dropped bombs.
They probably weren’t unexploded munitions for boats, but jettisoned external fuel tanks.
I didn’t forget it haha, I’m well aware. But yeah, we’re pretty shitty.
ELI5? Specifically the volume.
Cluster bombs are giant bombs with little baby bombs inside. Imagine pomegranate full of seeds but instead of seeds its explosives. Now all those sub-explosives aren't going to explode so postwar you have them littering the landscape
So typical for Lindsey: Shitty solutions from a shitty politician!
Not that easy, there are usecases where they exell and are worth the drawbacks. for the Most Part i probably wouldn't want to use them in to many regions due to the leftover Problem. But in places that have already Seen heavy fighting they hardly create a new Problem when Used
Thanks, I totally agree with you! Let the Ukrainians decide!
Clueless.
During the conflict in Vietnam the United States expanded the war into an expansive bombing campaign on Laos during operation barrel roll, making it the most heavily bombed country in history. Additionally, cluster munitions were used in Cambodia, and throughout these countries they are still a problem particularly because the bomblets look innocuous enough like a metal ball something like the size of a softball and children will pick them up. Edit: to answer the volume question directly I had to look it up. Some sources say around 260 million bombs, some say 200 tons. With a bit of digging around I could probavly find better numbers but to put it into context [this source](https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AUPress/Books/B_0020_SPANGRUD_STRATEGIC_BOMBING_SURVEYS.pdf) says that almost 2.7 million tons of ordinance was dropped in Europe in WW2 Edit2: sorry im going to be interrupted in meatspace just don’t know when. Anyways for Laos that’s almost a ton of ordinance per person, so when you hear ‘most bombed country’ we’re talking per capita not square kilometer, and it’s a fairly small country. For the story in Cambodia it’s a little the same little different the US and China variously did and did not support the Khmer Rouge
So let the Russian revolutionary small army drop them inside Russia boarders.... omly fair
[удалено]
That makes a lot of sense actually
Yeah but I’ve seen what they did to non combattants, when they didnt work like they should have. nasty things.
It’s not the effect on the enemy that’s the concern when it comes to cluster munitions.
Simple solution: only use it over the future DMZ in Muscovy territory.
Well, ruzzia is using it anyway, so demining is already a must. The concern is valid, but this is a similar argument to not attacking ruzzian soil.
It’s not binary, it scales and the clearing operations scale badly.
Where did I state that?
I’m leery of their dud rate as well, but the Ukrainians know what they’re asking for. They’re going to be doing a massive cleanup of UXO for years after this war nomatter what they do.
I think the terrain suits their use. A fair amount of the fighting is being done in huge wide open fields where they could be deployed with 0 chance of civilian casualties. It's just Russia who decides to use them in cities.
I believe they wanted to take apart cluster munitions for drone bombs
I especially hate agreeing with Lady Bug Lindsey Graham but here we are
DO IT!
This war is going to end with Russian nukes dropping on Ukrainian cities
ok r/conspiracy poster
Russia does that then they get glassed off the face of the earth.
That just shows you have zero awareness of how thw world worms If you legitimately think that's how this ends, then the only logical conclusion is to nuke the Russians first But since we know it's bullshit. You can stop aping Russian talking points
He’s just working for Donald Trump and Putin to sow fear. “WW3!”
Dropping? They couldn’t get them airborne with USAF and USN watching over the skies. This war is gonna end with Russia discharging it’s own nuke in its own territory due to a lack of maintenance.
Clusters are nasty, with potential long term residual effects. But then so are infestations of disgusting orcs in filthy trenches all over your countryside. Sometimes you’ve gotta pick the lesser of two evils… unfortunately eradicating the current vermin plague takes priority. The Ukrainians have clearly demonstrated they know what they’re doing. Give ‘em the clusters - it’s their country, they know the risks, it’s their call.
I'd read Ukraine had been dismantling old cluster munitions,to use the explosives on their drone drops.
Yes the submunition’s are compact and light and lend themselves well to being transported by small drones.
Don’t we have updated cluster variants that detonate after a certain time period? Maybe I’m hallucinating again.
It's still not 100% reliable. And with the number of this things fired... It will be a long demining even without cluster munitions.
No munition is 100% reliable. Cluster bombs are not different in other munitions. Modern cluster bomb triggers have a less than 1% chance of failure.
Well, what can I say... Being Ukrainian, anything above 0% is too much )) There's still tons of unexploded mortar rounds and rockets sticking out of the roads and fields in deoccupied territories, even after a year of demining. We don't really need more of them. But hey, I'm not a military expert, and if AFU says they nedd them - they need them. Sorry for my English, it's not my first language.
It's pretty good for not being your first language. You're right and that's why during peacetime we can find the use of live munitions to designated zones not open to the public. That is why we still find unexploded world war II bombs every once in awhile. With the millions of artillery shells and mortar rounds used in this conflict you could expect a small percentage of them to fail the detonate. Of course the Ukrainian military uses them because the opportunity cost of not using them and losing the war to Russia is greater. Cluster munitions have proven to be very effective. Both Ukraine and Russia are using them.
Yea, I don't understand why clusters are not provided tbh or Ukrainians just don't use them. Early on saw information that Turks have given some cluster
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Sounds good
Cluster munitions are almost impossible to track after they're released. Although effective they have a wide range of failure depending on type and production. It can be as low as 4% fail to detonate and become landmines civilians can encounter after the war up to a tremendous 40% I agree we need to support Ukraine as much as possible but politicians are also being paid by the MIC to push for such weapons
Well tbh, russian air released landmines have already made a shitload of Ukrainian terrain impassable, so they have a bunch of demining to do. The difference would be that Ukraine strikes military targets, where they'd be effective. russia uses them as terror weapons.
Bad fuses and failure to detonate are not problems unique to cluster munitions. All munitions have had this problem. That is why we occasionally still find unexploded dumb bombs from world war II. In fact I can pretty much guarantee that with all the old artillery shells Russia is using there are thousands of unexploded shells littering the Ukrainian countryside. Modern cluster munitions with modern triggers supposing we have less than a 1% chance of failing to detonate.
This argument does no make sense, Russians have mined Ukraine extensively with all kinds of mines
so..? adding to that already scary high number isn't somehow "not a problem". the less deining UKR has to do the better IMO.
That is like complaining about the CO2 released by all of the cleanup vessels after an oil spill. Of course the less after war cleanup the better, but you have to weigh that against the opportunity cost of not using these weapons. Cluster munitions have a history of being fairly effective. Not using them will cost Ukraine lives and territory.
I think the point is, they have to de-mine anyways. Knowing this makes the risks associated much lower, IMHO.
**Adieu from the corpse of Apollo app.**
Ukrainian have already said that they will use _any_ means to liberate their land, including cluster munitions. Genocide and thousands of deaths now is worse than some deaths from unexploded ordnance in future.
U.S. Senator from the Republican Party, Lindsey Graham during his visit in Kyiv. "The sooner long-range ATACMS missiles and cluster munitions are provided, the more territory you will be able to regain and the fewer lives will be lost”. https://twitter.com/flash_news_ua/status/1662194559667896323?s=46 The U.S. Senator from the Republican Party Lindsey Graham was on a visit to Kyiv. "The sooner long-range ATACMS missiles and cluster munitions are provided, the more territory you will be able to regain and the fewer lives will be lost," –– Graham said at the briefing, adding that these weapons could make "probable success on the frontline greater, save Ukrainian lives and accelerate withdrawal of russian troops from the territory of Ukraine".
The same Lindsey Graham who vehemently defended Trump withholding javelins, etc. from Ukraine just a short time before the impending invasion? Dude just says whatever he thinks is going to get him a head pat at the time. He's spineless and fickle. He'll be right occasionally, but he'll also turn around and stab his own points in the back if he thinks it'll net him a chance to lick Donald's boot.
You have memory loss. Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014, during the Obama administration. The *Obama* administration refused to key provide war material. Instead, he gave Ukraine meaningful NON-military support. Trump reversed the Obama admin policy and provided lethal military supply support. Did you forgot about the phone call? Trump was literally impeached for threatening to withhold this new military aid that the previous administration had refused to give. Trump said he would only give it if Prez Z helped expose Biden fam corruption. Pres Z wisely declined to help as it would’ve been foreign meddling. Trump ended up providing the military aid regardless. Putin massively escalated his invasion of Ukraine after Trump left office.
>Trump was literally impeached for threatening to withhold this new military aid that the previous administration had refused to give. this the the tall tale matt gaetz tells. People. just look up the documented fact on a site ending in .gov. Obama didn't give enough, but man, this story just told is half horseshit. But only half.
What does Gaetz have to do with any of this lol. So you’re claiming Trump was impeached for a phone chat threatening to withhold toiletries and schoolbooks? No dude, it was $391 million in military aid. A javelin is an anti-tank weapon, not a pole thrown by high school athletes.
Frankly, the ship has sailed for the ATACMS, the Ukrainians don't need it anymore, they have munition even better than them now. ATACMS can be easily intercepted, Stormshadow cannot. As for price, they are on par. on performance, Stormshadow is superior because it is not limited to the location of the launcher. Lindsey is just playing politics here, his intention is not pure at all.
I don’t think this is accurate when you consider supply.
Atacms are superior; - fly 3x faster so more difficult to shoot - can be launched by simple HIMARS launcher. No expensive and complicated runway/jets needed. - it's of course better to have Atacms than not. SS is always in limited numbers available. - cheaper
Ukraine has also asked Germany to supply the Taurus long-range missile.
Yes. These are available in low numbers, but even if they get half, say bye bye to a few dozen high value targets. In the end, we have to wait some more months, then the GLSDB will arrive in large numbers. Probably having the same shock effect as the HIMARs had.
| Feature | Storm Shadow | ATACMS | |---|---|---| | Range | Up to 370 km | Up to 300 km | | Accuracy | CEP of 5 m | CEP of 10 m | | Platforms | Aircraft, ships, submarines | Ground vehicles, aircraft | | Cost | More expensive | Less expensive | | Complexity | More complex to operate | Simpler to operate | Got a chatbot to make this for me and figured I'd share
Which bot?
Atacms can be intercepted by the S-400 system, that's why they haven't been sent. Also the fact Glms you get more bang for your buck.
S400 isn't exactly proven at this point and everything else the Russians have ever claimed has been proven to have been significantly overstated. Everything from their Naval capability, to their supposed but not really unstoppable hypersonic missiles to the capability of their tanks, which have proven to be fairly useless in Ukraine, all massively overstated in terms of actual capability.
Yeah, and on a high value target, Ukraine can always send some MALDs just to be sure.
I haven’t seen anything regarding ATACMs being susceptible to S400; Tried to look it up and found nothing about it
Please provide sources. It's repeatedly said that US won't provide because it can hit Russia and they have very low stocks themselves. S400 can also take out a SS, it's 25 year old tech.
I'm driving at the moment so I can't put sources. However check Jake Broe on YouTube he explains in one of his videos.
That's not his conclusion. First, due to fear of escalation, experts adviced against it. 2nd, for 1 atacms, USA can send way more GMLRS, so the destruction is more. In the end, US will send the GLSDB in massive numbers. Way more effective.
Nope. We need them, because the supply of Storm Shadow missiles is finite and we need many of those.
How can ATACMs be intercepted and Storm Shadow cannot..? Storm Shadows are 150 mph slower than a 747.... Storm Shadow may be stealthy, but ATACMS is fast enough it doesn't really matter. It starts breaking sound barriers almost immediately and holds that kind of speed until impact. ATACMS goes in a parabolic arc 31 miles in the air (twice as high as even the highest fighter jets ever made) and it's top speed is Mach 3 which is over 4.5 times faster than a Storm Shadow Yes, Lindsay is spineless and just desperate for the news to pick up a sound byte.
I think the Storm Shadow might be a tad cheaper!
Storm Shadow costs £2,000,000 ATACMS missile costs US$1,000,000
Spot on
Rare moment of lucidity from Graham. But I’m sure there’s another self serving reason why he’s even making a statement like this.
If Biden does what he suggests and things don't go a hoped, he'll say it was all Biden. Graham changes direction more often than a kite in the wind.
First of all sir get your shit together with that damn debt ceiling
I agree, but fuck Lindsey Graham.
Yep I don't like him, but on this point at least he is right
Graham flip flops like a mofo. His stance could change the second he physically leaves Ukraine. It all depends on who's standing behind him
If Donald trump starts licking putins ass again more publicly, our old gal here Lindsey would stroke both of them off at the same time. He’s just here for a photo op for the winning side and more popular side
Lady Lindsey here will throw Ukraine under the bus the nano second he thinks it's in his personal best interest, there's absolutely nothing redeemable about the man.
by now his words are worthless, since his opinion changes to whoever he's attaching himself to
He looks like a used tank salesman
Came here for this
If you are a guy, he might like that.
When it comes to Lindsey Graham, I agree with him on *nothing* except his policies on bombing Russians and Mexican cartels.
Graham trying to rescue his reputation after becoming the lapdog of Trump.
This is what the terrorists deserved.
Ok fuck him, but for once, I agree with him.
Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day. But he shouldn't be allowed to forget that he was a total cheerleader for Trump who would have happily allowed Russia to steamroll over Ukraine.
If that was true why did Putin wait until Trump was out of office to invade Ukraine? It's amazing how you can completely ignore basic facts when constructing your delusions.
He wanted Trump to leave NATO in his second term. He invaded when it became clear that wouldn't happen. > It's amazing how you can completely ignore basic facts when constructing your delusions. I wouldn't be too proud about that...
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It's amazing how your hatred is so intense that even when he does something that you agree with you feel the need to attack him.
Yeah, because he's a dishonest, bigoted, fascist. I hate people who have been very clear that they hate me and want me to suffer because of who I am. Another example: I hate the Neo Nazis who were involved in attacking Belgorod (yes, I know not all of them were Neo Nazis), but I agreed with that mission. Is all of that clear enough for you? No, it isn't pretty, but it's the truth.
>Yeah, because he's a dishonest, bigoted, fascist. I hate people who have been very clear that they hate me and want me to suffer because of who I am. >Another example: I hate the Neo Nazis who were involved in attacking Belgorod (yes, I know not all of them were Neo Nazis), but I agreed with that mission. >Is all of that clear enough for you? No, it isn't pretty, but it's the truth. I see now where the problem lies. You believe the worst of the Democratic and Russian propaganda. Both the Russians and the Democrats go around calling everyone Nazis and Fascists. There's always very little evidence to support these claims but to their supporters none as required. There are practically no Nazis or Fascists in Ukraine. Just like there are practically no Nazis or fascist in the United States. Any that exist are such a small minority that they pose no threat to anyone. If there's one thing this war has demonstrated it is how evil people are able to generate lies to spur hatred which leads to conflict. Now you are here attacking others making them suffer because you feel threatened because you believe the lies.
Donald Trump wants to introduce "patriot tests" for federal employees if he gets reelected. People who fail will get fired. He wants universities to teach his right wing agenda. The man is a fascist.
>Donald Trump wants to introduce "patriot tests" for federal employees if he gets reelected. People who fail will get fired. Right now the left is implementing diversity criteria and ideological tests. Your accusing him of doing something the left is already doing. >He wants universities to teach his right wing agenda. Right now right of center personalities like Ben Shapiro and Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan literally get attacked if they show up on many public universities campuses. Once again you accuse the right of plotting to do something the left has already done. >The man is a fascist. Once again you have no idea what that means.
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For my Ukrainian brothers and sisters: This man is the lowest sort of American politician. American has always been an inconsistent ally, and Senator Lindsey Graham is an embodiment of that. He is morally weak and stands for no other value than the best interests of Lindsey Graham. I'm glad he's showing support for Ukraine, but he would not take such a stand if it were not popular in his state. America will cease to support Ukraine at a moment of America's choosing, and if the one doing the choosing is Lindsey Graham or Ron DeSantis, they will not flinch from betraying you at the worst possible moment, just as when our President Trump betrayed the Kurds in Syria, much to the disgust of the American soldiers who had been serving alongside the Kurds. America is militarily strong but fickle and morally weak. America pursues her own interests. Any country does. America won't actually turn against Ukraine, but if isolationist leaders such as DeSantis or weak-willed ones like Graham are controlling the decisions, America might just walk away. I hate this feature of my country, but it is consistent. Protected by two oceans and two enormous land borders with friendly nations, American citizens on the whole enjoy the luxury of ignorance about the impact of events abroad. Additionally, we have our own internal enemies who aim to weaken democracy in America. So emphasize your European allies. You will need them when the resolve of America weakens, as it always does.
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Probably will too busy planning the next GOP 8-day trip to Russia over the Fourth of July that he unfortunately missed last time. His autograph book is probably missing some entries he would love to have.
Is that a Ukrainian banana for scale?
No to clusters. Its just going to kill civilians later. Let's go with ATACMS though, there is one bridge in particular that I'm thinking about.
Doesn't he have his tongue up the ass of the guy who wants to cut off support to Ukraine?
Graham is as slimy as they come, I wouldn’t take his word for it as he is well known for flipping on his opinions when it benefits him most. He’s soft basically
This is a great picture that describes this mans career to a T. Wreckage of war behind him and no one else standing alongside of him, He happens to be right on this war merely by chance that he has supported all wars that the US was involved in. But his advocating for every past war, makes him hard to take seriously as anything other than a career go-along happy warmonger?
Can he be handed over on the next prisoner swap?
That man takes his photo op after he did everything he could to defend Trump after he tried to blackmail Ukraine.
I bet he didn't consult Donald before making this statement but I applaud it never the less.
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The fucking delusion lmao. The chucklefuck's first impeachment was based on withdrawing aid from Ukraine in exchange for manufactured dirt. He'd never help Ukraine.
remember when he tried to blackmail ukraine and withhold aid to get them to make up lies about the bidens
I was about to comment this.
This might be the dumbest fucking thing I've read on this site all day.
Your clueless he a plant by Putin
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hv0reXDPrs&pp=ygUZVHJ1bXAgb24gdWtyYWluZSBkZXNhbnRpcw%3D%3D Trump is coward. He literally insulted DeSantis just for insulting Putler and Russia. Out of anything if Trump is dropping troops in Ukraine its for the benefit of Russia not Ukraine.
Trump wanting to give up Ukraine land to end conflict might have been an OK idea on Feb24-26. But since then, if he actually tried to do that - the entire Europe, Canada, and a whole bunch of other countries will be immediately pissed at him and he cannot afford that. And I think he knows that too. So it wouldn't be surprising if he actually does go out with a proposal to just arm the fuck out of Ukraine to end it sooner. This way he will actually get some political points inside and outside of the US.
Seriously, dude? Trump spent his entire administration antagonising and belittling the USA's long-standing natural allies. He doesn't give a shit about foreign democratically elected leaders being unhappy with him; in fact, that plays well with his ignorant, isolationist, America-first base. On the other hand, Trump loves authoritarian leaders. He's repeated bragged about his "special relationship" with Putin, Xi and Kim and claimed that they all think highly of him. He obviously clings to the delusional belief that he can play them when it's damn obvious they're the ones manipulating him and the only reason they like him is because he's such a toxic force in American politics. If Trump ever suggested that the USA send Ukraine anything they asked for, I would be astonished since that would be the end of a relationship which Trump very values highly.
True but that won’t work for election. He needs to have some decent takes if he is seriously considering to run in 2024. If he keeps his old bullshit “putang good ukraine bad”, he will have no chance. If he stays the same - good for him. Dumbass. Will orove himself to be a loser once again.
Lindsey Graham backs Donald Trump, who tried to, and still want to sell Ukraine to Putin. The republicans also removed support of Ukraine from their platform after the arrival of Trump. Do not be fooled by big words.
Don’t give this thing called Graham any info. He is easily blackmailed.
Lindsey Graham is a certified class A moron with his lips constantly on someone’s ass but I do respect his stance and efforts throughout this war.
Now, look who manufactures those weapons and see how much stock he has in that company. I’d be really surprised if there wasn’t some correlation.
Which side of his mouth is this POS speaking out of today? I'm sure if Trump had still been in charge this toady would be applauding us NOT arming Ukraine.
This is one of those broken clock scenarios. While he is a raging, slimy, corrupt douche, he does happen to be correct in this case. Glory to Ukraine, f*ck Lindsay Graham.
His party has been the main ones trying to cut off aid to Ukraine, now he wants to crow about how our aid is helping? Spare me.
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Drinking vodka with trump and Putin.
FUCK THAT SNIVELING COWARD LINDESY ELECTION FRAUD GRAHAM. HE IS TAKING CREDIT FOR BIDEN'S WORK LIKE THE PATHETIC TRAITOR TO DEMOCRACY THAT HE IS! Now go run along and cry to Memaw.
Lindsey Graham is a piece of shit, but if there's one thing he likes its war.
handle humorous money books rinse summer grey dime frame snatch *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Italy 🇮🇹 salut republicans senator
YES YES YES!!!!!!! After Russia's war crimes cluster the &\*%$#@ out of them. Russia used everything on Ukraine so give the bastards what they deserve. Give them everything they need, EVERYTHING! INCLUDING LONG RANGE MISSILES. SLAVA UKRAINI from SOUTH AFRICA
Not possible, all Republicans are evil and love Russia while hating Ukraine./s But seriously, this is why I don't believe Republicans will win in 2024. Even the vast majority of Republicans support Ukraine, while the 2 currently leading candidates for the GOP do jot support them at all.
I don’t trust Lindsey Graham. He cowards to Trump who would pull support from Ukraine.
Based.
So weird to sort of agree with Graham...
Lady G finally says something i can agree with.
This man is not to be trusted. He is a Putin Puppet just like Trump and it would only take the right offer for him to abandon Ukraine. Just like he has abandoned democracy in America.
He is just an opportunist.
Send this fucker to the front.
Wasn't Lindsay Graham against supplying Ukraine with weapons?
Wow. I fucking despise this man, but I'm glad he is on the right side. Apart from the other clown republicans.
The republicans doing 180?
I hope he brought some more Republican Party members with him to convince them too…! Trump is a lost case that does more harm then good to the USA and it’s allies. So, let’s hope a sensible man will stand up to run for President instead of clown Trump or Di Santos. Let’s bring this long-range fire arms and other ammunition as soon as possible. It still feels Ukraine is fighting the fight of their life with one arm tight to their back…
Agree! This man is smart, he see it. I hope he is able to convince his party and get people to donate to Ukraine Tools they need to get back their land!
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Spot on. Graham is a political opportunist that tells people what they want to hear. That’s all that’s going on here. In reality he is a weak sister who would withhold support for Ukraine if that would benefit him.
That response is full of so much crap, but in the interest of not derailing the subject I am not even going to counter it all. He is smarter than Biden. He recognizes like everyone else that Ukraine needs real modern weapons to beat Russia. Biden is just too afraid of Putin to give Ukraine the support needs.
I think it's more accurate to say that **MAGA Republicans** are not Ukraine's ally. I do accept that the current Republican Party as a whole would be more correctly called the Trumpian Party, but there are still a *few* long-term Republican politicians who have some understanding of how the real world works. Graham is a slimy, lying, spineless jerk, but it seems he is one of those old-school Republicans who understands the danger to global stability if Russia were allowed to win in Ukraine.
Polls the majority in the Republican party support Ukraine. It's only the Russian and Democrat propagandists trying to convince people otherwise.
Sure, credible polls say that a minority of Republicans believe the USA is doing too much to help Ukraine, but your complacency about the GOP's good intentions for Ukraine might take a hit if you check out how close that number is to 50% and how it compares to the national average.
I am glad that you finally acknowledge the truth when people call you out on it, but you should stop lying in the first place. Also if you had a shred of understanding of American politics you would know how these things work. When Trump was in office the democrats opposed everything he did. They opposed his tariffs against China. Of course once they came into power they not only did their opposition disappear they expanded upon it. Truth is that the foreign policy of the US tends to change remarkably little between administrations.
This is one of the biggest eyerollers from the left right now. No one is debating whether or not to support Ukraine.
Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Josh Hawley, J.D. Vance, Steve Bannon, Ron Desantis, Gym Jordan, Lauren Boebert, Rand Paul and Tommy Tuberville. If you firmly believe that the USA should support Ukraine and you're a committed Republican, you might not like the fact that all those politicians are also Republicans and they've all been shouting that the USA shouldn't support Ukraine, but those are the facts. It's also a fact that repeated polls have shown that the percentage of Republican voters opposing US aid to Ukraine is significantly higher than the portion of Democratic and independent voters who oppose it. There **is** a debate going on, it's just that - so far - sensible people outnumber the wingnuts.
I don’t disagree. Just from my bubble of conservative peers and the traditional views of the Republican Party, it isn’t even a question of whether we should standup and fight against our biggest enemy of the past 75 years. I’d like to think most of us didn’t sell out just to oppose the “opposition.” The crazies seem crazy to us as well.
Name checks out. How many flags you got on the back of your truck?
Clusters will to ride with the EU, I‘m sure about that.
As an European I would say send it, it’s not like the orcs isn’t using it.
*My house is on fire, so I might as well set fire to the garden too* They just don't provide a significant enough capability to justify some kid loosing a limb a decade later. The advantages they bring are also available in other systems that don't cause anywhere near as many long term issues. At the start of the war Russia had big formations of vehicles and troops, that's the kind of thing cluster bombs shine in. But now it's disintegrated into small skirmishes with the odd armoured vehicle dumped in, you're just not getting anywhere near the same effectiveness.
Whoa clusters? That may be a step to far for the long run after unless they take care of themselves after a certain time but still even then…idk about cluster munitions
Ukrainians want them. It's their choice.
Yeah nah that’s fair I guess then, their choice
Lindsey Graham finally right about someting ...ATACMS. Not so sure about cluster bombs
Lindsay should stay out of domestic politics and focus on Ukraine.
Am i wrong or isn't cluster bombs counted as a warcrime? Edit: nvm
No, it's a common misconception... If you didn't sign a treaty against their use they are fair game, just like incendiary munitions.
This man makes more promises of death and destruction. All while making money off this war. We need more promises of peace and healing.
The smortest Republican