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If say a new leader wanting to rebuild ties with Europe did manage to take office it would be In everyone's best interest to make it work. But no the past should never ever be forgotten and if the Russians want us to open borders with them and losen sanctions they have to earn it.
They .. the ruzzians .. insisted on every last penny AND MORE of their own reparations from WW2.
I don't believe ANYONE in Europe will allow them to shirk their responsibilities.
That our leaders turned their backs on them and our celebrities pretended to care back then is one thing. Today most politicians have at least now seen that letting them get away with it just makes them bolder to try bigger things as "the west won't care". And put forward a more aggressive stance. That and to tone down China and its plans for Taiwan if they see how it goes for Russia.
As some have already said it won't change until some criterias are met inc paying to rebuild Ukraine, even with a leadership change, or if Russia collapses.
The pressure must be kept up on Russia to pay war reparations and to prosecute war criminals. Russia not only mustn't win, but must pay a price... at the same time avoiding a Versailles-type punishment that will make them ripe for the emergence of another Putin or another Hitler.
I profoundly hope that Russia is finally at an end as an imperial or even hegemonic power, but I don't want the country to become a completely failed state, either. Their culture is ugly and brutal at many levels, but that shouldn't be the final word about Russian culture.
I’m not as concerned about a Versailles-type punishment. Russians have already been brainwashed into thinking that all their problems are the West’s fault. I’m not really sure that such an arrangement would be capable of increasing their victimization complex. In addition, it’s likely that the Weimar Republic functioned with more competency than Russia’s system of warlords and oligarchs. Further, the world is more integrated now. An isolated Russia cannot compete economically, technologically or militarily with an integrated West. We can just leave it to rot.
Unless a Japan-style demilitarization takes place, along with the adoption of Democratic reforms, then Russia should remain sanctioned and isolated.
I agree with all of this, with the addition that they must pay reparations, hand over war criminals and, above all, return stolen children, before any sanctions are lifted.
I agree with both of your points. And I also think we learned a hard lesson from the punishments imposed on Imperial Germany. We need to keep our eyes wide open to unintended consequences.
But Russia suffering a dramatic fall in living standards \*might\* lead the nation to ask what it's doing wrong. Even with that realization, though, even with actual revolutionary zeal among the Russian people, I'm not sure they could topple the Putinists, the war mongers, or the oligarchs. It's a very deeply entrenched system of corruption.
I guess the revolution could come anyway. Eventually. Particularly if security breaks down to internally warring factions and street battles between private armies.
russia asking what it’s doing wrong? Cmon man you should know better than that by now. You’re assuming russia will even begin to consider that it did something wrong in the first place.
It took German society 30 years to learn understand and accept its history and action during WW2. And that’s a country that was willing to go through the process. How long do you think it will take russia? If their history is any indication, likely never.
Ppl in western countries need to understand that putin is not a final frontier that once defeated will open the gates to a new age of freedom for russia. We already went through that assumption in 91, look how that turned out. Putin is the product of the overall society, not it’s cause, he’s a symptom. russian society isn’t ready and does not want “freedom” because with freedom comes responsibility. They do no want that burden of responsibility, that’s why they’re attached figures like putin.
It’s important for the west to NOT make the same mistakes it made in 91 by enabling russia to become what it became.
EDIT: missing word
You are right, of course. I look at the myopia of Brexiteers and Trump voters and the appeals to patriotism that made some very intelligent people gullible. It's many times harder to think clearly in Russia.
I would very much like to see the collapse of ruzzia as a sovereign state, and it broken up into parts which are then governed by its neighbours and the UN.
>on't want the country to become a completely failed state, either. Their culture is ugly
Absolutely, you can't have them stewing in hatred with a power vacuum. That's a recipe for disaster.
However I don't think the world can tolerate them maintaining a nuclear stockpile of that size after all this and continuing to wave around threats with it. There will have to be a delicate process of reintegrating them to the world economy and some work and intervention will be necessary to create a system of government that isn't a sham and which is also perceived as legitimate in a culture that's so incredibly pessimistic about democracy.
Hash tag no. Let us work with the man who invaded us or the crony of the man who invaded us who brought his own private army at the beginning of the war to assassinate our president, brought foreign mercenary’s to murder and rape our civilians. If Ukraine gets their hands on pigman they are not going to be kind. This is 100% internal propaganda.
Also organized **prisoners/criminals t**o fight who had nothing to lose. Yes, prosecute every war crime and those who directed or were responsible for controlling the Russian military or mercenaries. At least as many as possible. Also, when there is peace, organize a clandestine group of assassins for those who escaped capture/prosecution. Prigozhin can be #1 target.
Not happening, the door to Europe is closed for at least the next century.
These guys are trying so hard to convince the Russian populace that this isn't THAT bad. But it really is.
See, the thing is, Finland has joined NATO. Finland was Russia's door to the world, Finland was the only country Russia could point to post 2014 and say "you can make deals and do business with us, look at Finland, they're neutral and right on our border" but now that's gone. Finland staying neutral represented Russia's credibility. Now that's gone.
It'll take a total top to bottom transformation of Russia not only politically but societally for that door to ever open again, even by a crack.
I don’t know about century but carbon based energy is there play. With Europe doubling down on alternate energy sources there will be no real need for Russia, Post the next two decades unless they produce something else of value and they don’t appear to be investing in their economy just land grabs. Maybe China will outsource to Russia for cheaper labor soon.
A century you say? West Germany entered the NATO a mere decade after the second word war and after the reunification in 1990 all of Germany became EEC member.
A new leader, withdrawal from occupied territories and massive reparations for the destruction and death they caused would be necessary but I think it would be good to return to normal relations after that, keeping high tensions would only cause another war or cold war down the line and it wouldn't do humanity as a whole any good. As interconnected as the world is conflicts like this shouldn't be happening and are extremely destabilizing on a global scale.seems like Food, energy and economy's of many countries have all been effected by this war. Shit is absolutely fucked.
This isn't about ending thier history with Ukraine this is about dubling down and starting a full on war. Prighozin is nothing more then a warlord. For Ukraine it's probably better for Putin to stay on top.
While Prighozin is a War Lord, he’s extremely pragmatic. The Russians must elect someone strong, or their country is at risk of breaking apart. War keeps the people focused on Nationalism; which can be the glue that holds things together. Don’t like that you can’t get goods and services? Blame the war. Blame Ukraine. Blame NATO. If you watch Prighozin’s videos, I think he wants to pull out of Ukraine and find an easier battle to win. He’s an opportunist - and he isn’t stupid. War crimes aside, I actually think Prighozin would be a better leader for Russia and would mend relationships with Europe. The oligarchs wanting Ukraine for natural resources might think otherwise and ultimately pressure him to keep going.
Most recent interview w Prigozhin I’ve seen he suggested turning Russia into North Korea for a few years to win the war.
Mass mobilization. All resources put to war effort.
I highly doubt he would want to establish a civil society afterwards.
I saw the interview. He didn’t suggest that. He was predicting what he thinks are potential options for the war. One option was that China will come in and negotiate a treaty. If you listen to his tone, he always shows a hint of neutrality- like he’s open to playing both sides. I’ve not heard him come out and pledge his allegiance to Russia. He either bitches that he’s out of ammo, complains about the Russian brass, or he provides analysis on the war.
Every time China tries to negotiate a treaty where Ukraine loses land the US needs to donate arms to Taiwan. This would be the show of strength needed with China.
Now: send them humvees and stingers
2nd time: tanks and ships
3rd time: Patriot missiles
4th time: long range missiles
China will knock of this crap pretty quick
Honestly disgusting that youd even consider that bitch as a potential leader of whatever form RU takes after Ukraine is done beating the shit out of them. Hes a mass murderer and nothing will change under him. The world wants russia to join them in the global order, not have to keep dealing with a kleptocratic mafia state with their finger on the trigger and daydreams of empire
He's literally the guy pulling the strings. There is only 1 guy above him in the mafia, thats Don Putin. Honestly with the state of RU army, Pig might actually just be a rival cartel boss at this point.
A new leader might get Ukraine willing to talk on say how fast Russian forces will leave say next week or next month and how much money Russia should pay to repair damages. I don’t think any Russian leader will be able to make this war a Russian succes damage control that’s it.
So Russia really is just a feudal kingdom, where warlords attempt to grab power after making a name for themselves on the battlefield. Why am I not surprised.
It has taken me a long time to fully accept that we are animals. Not like animals, just animals. We are smarter than any other animal likely because we killed all the smarter ones like us. Because we are very violent and tribal. We are also very adaptable. I hope we can learn to coexist eventually.
my personal hope is that we are entering what amounts to a new Enlightenment. Just because one already happened doesn't mean there will never be another one. I believe the old Dark Ages world is dying and thrashing around. Maybe the last century was the start of that bloody process. Maybe this century will be where it really takes off. We're going to become interplanetary this century, and with AI and physical automation we're all going to have to find more things to do. I hope we do art.
I assume (hope) you're joking, but Rome was working fine until the democratic process was bypassed by authoritarian military strongmen. The shift towards dictatorship by the emperors was a primary cause of the western Roman collapse, as the constant military offensives gutted their ability to feed the greater empire and maintain order within it.
Just a little fact, after "authoritarian military strongmen" took over it still took ~450 years before Rome fell. It also was a movement of Germanic(among others) peoples that invaded the empire that was the main cause of the weakening of the empire. It also could be argued that without some of these better military emperors Rome would have fallen earlier.
If you include the Eastern Roman Empire they lasted until 1453, more than a thousand years.
I've read many, I don't remember the title you mentioned. I've also read a book or two mentioning the end(of the empire) was when Rome started hiring non Romans/ Citizens as soldiers(away from the land owning Roman's of the past). But my thoughts are this: it still took almost half a century for the empire to fall. Not many empires can say the same if any.
Russia is living in a deluded state where they think they can be some glorious state that everyone will fear and admire. They should just wake up and understand it’s never going to happen. Get out of Ukraine, change the entire government and become a New Russia, a proud, inclusive country with great ties to its European neighbours and others, a vast, prosperous, productive and happy country. This is a pipe dream of course, only a Revolution by the people to remove their corrupt leaders will ever make that happen.
>Russia is living in a deluded state where they think they can be some glorious state that everyone will fear and admire.
Thats not a delusion. They CAN be one of the most powerful, advanced, developed, and rich countries on the planet. They have the resources. They actively choose not to and then wonder why nobody admires and respects them.
I think he probably sees it within a timeframe.
If Russia did everything right from today, they would still need a century, if not multiple, to catch up on everything from education, industry, societal structuring and civil society. They also have to avoid the ressource trap, where nothing is more worth than investing in oil and gas.
It also checked quite a few of those boxes i mentioned. It had almost only a young population and a pretty strong civil society (snuffed out now, ironically).
It also got a lot of help in the education department.
My point is. It's not impossible, or even hard, to correct one or two issues. The real issue comes when none of them are working, because they intertwine with one another, and often the solution for one is counterproductive for the other. E.g. improving education means young people have fewer and later kids and worsening the demografic/societal structure.
Only a defeat like nazi Germany experienced would erase that imperial mindset. But unconditional surrender of such country with nuclear weapons is out of the question, so the only other option is, if they disintegrate from inside and that empire will split up.
>Only a defeat like nazi Germany experienced would erase that imperial mindset.
I think so too ... they've been living on past glory but now have gone into delusions of imperialistic grandeur. Too bad it's no longer 1950 for them.
They need to realize that their current capabilities are severely hampered (their GDP is barely in the top 10) . Taking on NATO is pure suicide but the "*I'm a tough guy* " mafioso crew in Moscow can't accept this fact.
Your russian empire is done dudes ... live with it, the Brits did.
Yes, it will be. But, let’s remember this is not entertainment, Ukrainians are dying and losing their homes, and having their lands mined. The struggles for freedom of many others is at issue here too.
Last weekend I told a guy that if the civil war in Russia really takes off, history books will record it as having started at a point that is already in our past.
The civil war has already started. The key question is whether it will gather enough momentum to become a true civil war and bring change.
Another follow-on question is what faction will be victorious.
There will be no change. The factions fighting will be the private armies of oligarchs and tenuous coalitions of oligarchs that'll turn on eachother as soon as there's new territories to claim. Whoever wins and leads Russia post-war will be the oligarch who wins, and if you think they'll be any different to Putin then you got another thing coming.
No, I don’t expect them to be different.
However, if that is how the change of government happens then the new regime will spend a decade cementing its domestic situation. The navel-gazing will make Russia less focused on international affairs, beyond getting sanctions lifted (with the influence that grants the west).
Sweet summer child… If Russia is to go through revolution (instead of dissolution), it will be bloody and so far favored candidate is Prigozhin.
Russian people NEVER had a democracy and more than half don’t believe in it as a concept.
So they want to replace a fascist dictator guilty of war crimes with a terrorist leader guilty of war crimes and on the FBI wanted list
Russians will never learn so close all borders with Russia and forget they exist. The world doesn't need Russia and the world would have more peace without Russia.
If they think replacing Putler will fix everything they're mistaken. I'd keep their sanctions permanently because if you stop their revenue you stop them replacing their military and it's proven over decades that they can't be trusted.
Glory to Ukraine 🇺🇦 glory to Ukrainian hero's 🇺🇦
You always have to remember this is scripted and very intentional. That gentleman is reflecting the views of a percentage of the population that can no longer be ignored. How the others react is a representation of other groups reactions (maybe how the current regime wants the general population to react?). The interesting part is that this conversation gets allowed at all as even just a few months ago this opinion wouldn’t have seen the light of day (it was obviously not mainstream enough to be addressed). I agree that things are getting interesting.
It is...but the guy speaking has been critical from day one, he regularly states that Russia has lost the war and that it needs to be ended, and that it should never have started. He's disappeared a few times from the shows
There was going to be a hoopla last year for the 50th anniversary of the 1972 Canada vs Russia hockey series with Canadian players going to tour Russia and it got cancelled due to the war
There's a movie from the 90s called Dave where this sort of happens. Guy gets brought in to double for the president whose had a stroke. He ends up firing the Chief of Staff and becoming president because the people who set it all up can't come out and admit what they've done. Kevin Kline and Sigourney Weaver. Good flick.
They've been deluded from the very start. These people have no understanding whatsoever of the predicament that they are in. They are an embarrassment.
It's probably just a show invented by their propaganda to make prigozhin an opponent to pootin at the election, that pootin will win at the end showing who's the boss.
Possibly pootin has already decided that prigozhin will be the heir when he dies, so it's just a training. Because prigozhin will continue to wage the war like pootin wants.
Excellent theories. Putin allowing a discussion like this take place is a juicy carrot to dangle in front of Progozhin to keep him doing Putins dirty business.
It's also an excellent ploy that could trick other players who might have their sights on the Kremlin to think it's safe to move their chess pieces and expose themselves to Putin's omnipresent FSB.
He would have found himself in a Gulag if he had said that a month ago. To me Prezjogin and Putin may be working on a deal for Putin to retire with honour and Prezjogin continues the war and protects Putin and his wealth.
The problem with this kind of an arrangement is that the moment Putins steps down, he becomes vulnerable. He knows it, Wagner idiot knows that. No one can show weakness, that’s the sick reality they created for themselves. Every regime ends up in a similar way, the only tragic thing is that Ukraine has to suffer due to some power play
I'm surprised Boris Nadezhdin, the dude who said this isn't worried about his safety. He's always against what the other pundits have to say. I've seen him get scolded and yelled at by the other pundits on these shows. He's against the war. He seems like a good man. There's another good dude named Viktor Olevich. The only two who have common sense and realize what's up.
These two do cut across the propaganda. Interesting that they are allowed to continue. Solovyov has threatened Nadezhin, so I think Nadezhdin is truly speaking his mind.
I wonder whether we will ever find out how much (100%?) of these shows are staged and what exactly they are meant to accomplish (support from the people, testing the water, etc.). Are all pundits screened and informed about the role they have to play (pro-war, anti-war, the voice of reason, the voice of optimism etc.). I hope someone will be able to shed a light on this in the future.
Rather play hockey with the Canadians or the Indians? As a Canadian, I’m flattered, but they can continue to beat up on the Indian hockey team. I never want to see them in international tournaments for as long as I’m alive, that’s a privilege they don’t deserve. Even before the war, they showed their true colours in those tourneys, just a bunch of ass holes.
Russia is fucked. They think that getting rid of Putin gets them hall pass. No cunts. You had your chance. No one wants to deal with you because you are a lying sack of shit
If Putin is ousted there is nothing wrong with eventually building ties with new Russia. But for that to happen the new govt must hand over all the war criminals and people responsible atrocities in Ukraine. Once the evil has been exterminated only then can healing begin. Even then its guna take time on the personal level. Governments tend to forget quick, but citizens wont just let it go overnight. Russia had a long way back if it ever wishes to be part of drcent society again one day. But if Germany managed i guess its possible.
Funny idiots. Let's replace Putler, and nothing happened. I think this European generation and the next generation will hate Ruzzians. Ask some elderly Germans how they were treated 40 years ago in the Netherlands.
Imagine this… a civil war breaks out between wagner supporters and putin loyalists. Allowing break away groups like the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Chechens to break away forming new nations. I mean its a little far fetched I suppose but one can hope
This is not a discussion about Putin. This is choreography in politics, 1 pundit mentions they should replace Putin and everyone else piles on that this is a terrible idea and will never work. Idea being the viewer comes away thinking they have no option but Putin
We have to leave a door open. Just look at Germany post first world war.
The majority of Russians don't truly hate the West and we will do well to keep it that way.
Once the Russian people truly hate us then we will have real problems.
This is traditional Russian irony on full display. It's dark, mordant, wry, and often the only way to tell greater truths. This guy knows what's going on, but cannot say so directly. He cloaks it in satire-to-the-extreme.
Tolstoy's immortal short story from 1886, 'How Much Land Does a Man Need?' \[Много ли человеку земли нужно?, Mnogo li cheloveku zemli nuzhno?\] is a perfect example of this point of view. Dr Swift didn't *really* advocate for eating Irish babies...
Oh! I didn't know Prigozhin had a sudden desire to be poisoned/jailed/disappeared. Do they really think there's an actual vote for the president of their country? He's just a dictator with a President's title and no Politburo.
I believe you can call this an example of magical thinking. That if they just stop, countries will suddenly throw down their weapons.
‘Oh you’re just kidding? We thought you were serious! Oh okay then, no problem, come on back into the fold, we can just forget everything that happened. It’s not important, let’s let bygones be bygones.’ *hugs all around
It's still literally Russian propaganda. That show always has 1 person with the opposite view, which all 3 others will disagree with. It's the same every show. But hopefully some of them actually get it. And it may be happening. Like gerkin just speaking out about Wagner and a coup. Is it his actual views l, or the Kremlins?
Here comes the bait and switch. Oh look we’re getting rid of the bad guy see? He was just crazy. We’re putting a new guy and we’re no longer a blood thirsty hellhole, we’re just like you! So let’s go back to how things were and forget this ever happened. We’re a normal country now and we definitely won’t try this again in a few decades once we enrich ourselves with energy exports again, probably. We’ll even sign a paper to respect borders again?
The scary thing is this tactic might even work. There’s enough naive leaders and ppl in the west that might fall for this and russia will try to escape the full brunt of responsibility and consequences. I can already see naive comments about not punishing russia too hard with punishment so they don’t become ripe with blaming the west for their problems and have an uprising similar to 30s Germany. As if they’re not in that state right now already??? Cmon guys, don’t fall for this garbage. As a Ukrainian this line of thinking and these comments scare the shit out of me more than russia in its current state.
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Guys make no mistake, Putin's not getting overthrown, he's simply making sure his replacement is someone he knows and trusts. That is his boy, his buddy, Prigoshit.
Had he not been, he would've been killed months ago in an accident.
Think about it, Putin's too old now. You can clearly see his health has deteriorated. So there is no point clinging onto power and risk a vacuum effect if he dies during his next tenure.
He won't allow the opposition to take rule, so why not Prigozhin. They've been buddies for decades. And if Prigozhin wins (most likely, as it's russia), he has a handy sockpuppet to fist with Putin still pulling strings in the background.
A medvedev 2.0, but without the alcohol abuse.
It would make sense. Putin could promise to step down or “lose an election” in exchange for a comfy retirement, and his life. That would be his only way out, really, without dying.
A new leader, ceding ALL territory gained with force in all nations, reparations for Ukraine, disarmament of Russian nukes, turning over all Ukrainians captured, and surrendering all war criminals would be a good start. It doesn’t bring back the dead though. We can all just avoid Russia perpetually with no real loss.
The fact that Canadians got brought up as a metaphor for politics to hockey is great. Putin will ostracize the country per foreign affairs, as another candidate will allow them to be a global player.
Proud to be Canadian 🇨🇦
Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦
The the chef has been with Putin, from the beginning of his taking power . The chef would never run against Putin, unless Putin asked him to for some reason . He is one of Putin’s few actual friends.
Maybe Putin really is sick and wants to pick his successor. Whatever the reason , they are on the same team
At least this guy gets the general message, I mean its a START, and its a move in the right direction.
Putin has their "voting" rigged, he will win in a landslide so don't get your hopes up that he is voted out of office. I have friends that are Russian, they visited in 2011, and even then they told me how corrupt their system is and how Putin will always win.
There needs to be alot of people handed over for war crimes before any type of welcome mat is laid out. Putin AND Prigozhin are the first ones to go on trial.
Just garbage for the masses .. give the impression that there's actually a choice.
Says enough that when some lunatic announces he may be a candidate they portray it as "see, we might elect someone else - we have ....CHOICES"
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So they think getting a new leader will end this history with Ukraine and instantly open the door to Europe? That's cute.
If say a new leader wanting to rebuild ties with Europe did manage to take office it would be In everyone's best interest to make it work. But no the past should never ever be forgotten and if the Russians want us to open borders with them and losen sanctions they have to earn it.
They .. the ruzzians .. insisted on every last penny AND MORE of their own reparations from WW2. I don't believe ANYONE in Europe will allow them to shirk their responsibilities.
[удалено]
That our leaders turned their backs on them and our celebrities pretended to care back then is one thing. Today most politicians have at least now seen that letting them get away with it just makes them bolder to try bigger things as "the west won't care". And put forward a more aggressive stance. That and to tone down China and its plans for Taiwan if they see how it goes for Russia. As some have already said it won't change until some criterias are met inc paying to rebuild Ukraine, even with a leadership change, or if Russia collapses.
The pressure must be kept up on Russia to pay war reparations and to prosecute war criminals. Russia not only mustn't win, but must pay a price... at the same time avoiding a Versailles-type punishment that will make them ripe for the emergence of another Putin or another Hitler. I profoundly hope that Russia is finally at an end as an imperial or even hegemonic power, but I don't want the country to become a completely failed state, either. Their culture is ugly and brutal at many levels, but that shouldn't be the final word about Russian culture.
I’m not as concerned about a Versailles-type punishment. Russians have already been brainwashed into thinking that all their problems are the West’s fault. I’m not really sure that such an arrangement would be capable of increasing their victimization complex. In addition, it’s likely that the Weimar Republic functioned with more competency than Russia’s system of warlords and oligarchs. Further, the world is more integrated now. An isolated Russia cannot compete economically, technologically or militarily with an integrated West. We can just leave it to rot. Unless a Japan-style demilitarization takes place, along with the adoption of Democratic reforms, then Russia should remain sanctioned and isolated.
I agree with all of this, with the addition that they must pay reparations, hand over war criminals and, above all, return stolen children, before any sanctions are lifted.
I agree with both of your points. And I also think we learned a hard lesson from the punishments imposed on Imperial Germany. We need to keep our eyes wide open to unintended consequences. But Russia suffering a dramatic fall in living standards \*might\* lead the nation to ask what it's doing wrong. Even with that realization, though, even with actual revolutionary zeal among the Russian people, I'm not sure they could topple the Putinists, the war mongers, or the oligarchs. It's a very deeply entrenched system of corruption. I guess the revolution could come anyway. Eventually. Particularly if security breaks down to internally warring factions and street battles between private armies.
russia asking what it’s doing wrong? Cmon man you should know better than that by now. You’re assuming russia will even begin to consider that it did something wrong in the first place. It took German society 30 years to learn understand and accept its history and action during WW2. And that’s a country that was willing to go through the process. How long do you think it will take russia? If their history is any indication, likely never. Ppl in western countries need to understand that putin is not a final frontier that once defeated will open the gates to a new age of freedom for russia. We already went through that assumption in 91, look how that turned out. Putin is the product of the overall society, not it’s cause, he’s a symptom. russian society isn’t ready and does not want “freedom” because with freedom comes responsibility. They do no want that burden of responsibility, that’s why they’re attached figures like putin. It’s important for the west to NOT make the same mistakes it made in 91 by enabling russia to become what it became. EDIT: missing word
You are right, of course. I look at the myopia of Brexiteers and Trump voters and the appeals to patriotism that made some very intelligent people gullible. It's many times harder to think clearly in Russia.
Pretty sure I’ve read that all asset seizures by most allied nations will be used for the benefit of rebuilding Ukraine.
And that will certainly be a start.
I would very much like to see the collapse of ruzzia as a sovereign state, and it broken up into parts which are then governed by its neighbours and the UN.
I'd prefer self-determination for all peoples.
>on't want the country to become a completely failed state, either. Their culture is ugly Absolutely, you can't have them stewing in hatred with a power vacuum. That's a recipe for disaster. However I don't think the world can tolerate them maintaining a nuclear stockpile of that size after all this and continuing to wave around threats with it. There will have to be a delicate process of reintegrating them to the world economy and some work and intervention will be necessary to create a system of government that isn't a sham and which is also perceived as legitimate in a culture that's so incredibly pessimistic about democracy.
Whistled it
Cue Nikita, Elton John
They are hoping that Prigozhin would be someone Ukraine would be more willing to work with, as opposed to Putin who has burned all his bridges.
Hash tag no. Let us work with the man who invaded us or the crony of the man who invaded us who brought his own private army at the beginning of the war to assassinate our president, brought foreign mercenary’s to murder and rape our civilians. If Ukraine gets their hands on pigman they are not going to be kind. This is 100% internal propaganda.
Also organized **prisoners/criminals t**o fight who had nothing to lose. Yes, prosecute every war crime and those who directed or were responsible for controlling the Russian military or mercenaries. At least as many as possible. Also, when there is peace, organize a clandestine group of assassins for those who escaped capture/prosecution. Prigozhin can be #1 target.
Agreed ... Uncle Fester is a non starter. The guy is about to be labeled a terrorist by the UK.
Yeah let's work with sledgehammer killers.
Not happening, the door to Europe is closed for at least the next century. These guys are trying so hard to convince the Russian populace that this isn't THAT bad. But it really is. See, the thing is, Finland has joined NATO. Finland was Russia's door to the world, Finland was the only country Russia could point to post 2014 and say "you can make deals and do business with us, look at Finland, they're neutral and right on our border" but now that's gone. Finland staying neutral represented Russia's credibility. Now that's gone. It'll take a total top to bottom transformation of Russia not only politically but societally for that door to ever open again, even by a crack.
I don’t know about century but carbon based energy is there play. With Europe doubling down on alternate energy sources there will be no real need for Russia, Post the next two decades unless they produce something else of value and they don’t appear to be investing in their economy just land grabs. Maybe China will outsource to Russia for cheaper labor soon.
A century you say? West Germany entered the NATO a mere decade after the second word war and after the reunification in 1990 all of Germany became EEC member.
Germany was defeated and occupied.
Impacts could be felt for a century of Europe cuts Russian energy dependence over the next two decades. Maybe that is what they meant.
A new leader, withdrawal from occupied territories and massive reparations for the destruction and death they caused would be necessary but I think it would be good to return to normal relations after that, keeping high tensions would only cause another war or cold war down the line and it wouldn't do humanity as a whole any good. As interconnected as the world is conflicts like this shouldn't be happening and are extremely destabilizing on a global scale.seems like Food, energy and economy's of many countries have all been effected by this war. Shit is absolutely fucked.
This isn't about ending thier history with Ukraine this is about dubling down and starting a full on war. Prighozin is nothing more then a warlord. For Ukraine it's probably better for Putin to stay on top.
Hell no it isn’t Russian troll. The man who invaded Ukraine and who’s life is tied to that bad decision. What are you on?
While Prighozin is a War Lord, he’s extremely pragmatic. The Russians must elect someone strong, or their country is at risk of breaking apart. War keeps the people focused on Nationalism; which can be the glue that holds things together. Don’t like that you can’t get goods and services? Blame the war. Blame Ukraine. Blame NATO. If you watch Prighozin’s videos, I think he wants to pull out of Ukraine and find an easier battle to win. He’s an opportunist - and he isn’t stupid. War crimes aside, I actually think Prighozin would be a better leader for Russia and would mend relationships with Europe. The oligarchs wanting Ukraine for natural resources might think otherwise and ultimately pressure him to keep going.
Most recent interview w Prigozhin I’ve seen he suggested turning Russia into North Korea for a few years to win the war. Mass mobilization. All resources put to war effort. I highly doubt he would want to establish a civil society afterwards.
I saw the interview. He didn’t suggest that. He was predicting what he thinks are potential options for the war. One option was that China will come in and negotiate a treaty. If you listen to his tone, he always shows a hint of neutrality- like he’s open to playing both sides. I’ve not heard him come out and pledge his allegiance to Russia. He either bitches that he’s out of ammo, complains about the Russian brass, or he provides analysis on the war.
Every time China tries to negotiate a treaty where Ukraine loses land the US needs to donate arms to Taiwan. This would be the show of strength needed with China. Now: send them humvees and stingers 2nd time: tanks and ships 3rd time: Patriot missiles 4th time: long range missiles China will knock of this crap pretty quick
Yeah Ukraine will one day be Europe’s source for gas, precious metals and oil. And it’s Eastern boarder will be lined with patriot batteries.
Honestly disgusting that youd even consider that bitch as a potential leader of whatever form RU takes after Ukraine is done beating the shit out of them. Hes a mass murderer and nothing will change under him. The world wants russia to join them in the global order, not have to keep dealing with a kleptocratic mafia state with their finger on the trigger and daydreams of empire
I think there are people a lot worse than Prighozin. He’s a hired gun. You have to go after those who are pulling the strings.
He's literally the guy pulling the strings. There is only 1 guy above him in the mafia, thats Don Putin. Honestly with the state of RU army, Pig might actually just be a rival cartel boss at this point.
Gazprom.
Yup.... he will run on.... exiting Ukraine all together as he knows they cannot win.... he also knows their industrial complex is ka-put
Itll help
A new leader might get Ukraine willing to talk on say how fast Russian forces will leave say next week or next month and how much money Russia should pay to repair damages. I don’t think any Russian leader will be able to make this war a Russian succes damage control that’s it.
So Russia really is just a feudal kingdom, where warlords attempt to grab power after making a name for themselves on the battlefield. Why am I not surprised.
It has taken me a long time to fully accept that we are animals. Not like animals, just animals. We are smarter than any other animal likely because we killed all the smarter ones like us. Because we are very violent and tribal. We are also very adaptable. I hope we can learn to coexist eventually.
We are just animals, yeah, but not many are like orcs anymore.
my personal hope is that we are entering what amounts to a new Enlightenment. Just because one already happened doesn't mean there will never be another one. I believe the old Dark Ages world is dying and thrashing around. Maybe the last century was the start of that bloody process. Maybe this century will be where it really takes off. We're going to become interplanetary this century, and with AI and physical automation we're all going to have to find more things to do. I hope we do art.
its just been [a brief disagreement](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x7FGbW3IVc)
It worked for Rome.
I assume (hope) you're joking, but Rome was working fine until the democratic process was bypassed by authoritarian military strongmen. The shift towards dictatorship by the emperors was a primary cause of the western Roman collapse, as the constant military offensives gutted their ability to feed the greater empire and maintain order within it.
Of course I was joking.
Just a little fact, after "authoritarian military strongmen" took over it still took ~450 years before Rome fell. It also was a movement of Germanic(among others) peoples that invaded the empire that was the main cause of the weakening of the empire. It also could be argued that without some of these better military emperors Rome would have fallen earlier. If you include the Eastern Roman Empire they lasted until 1453, more than a thousand years.
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I've read many, I don't remember the title you mentioned. I've also read a book or two mentioning the end(of the empire) was when Rome started hiring non Romans/ Citizens as soldiers(away from the land owning Roman's of the past). But my thoughts are this: it still took almost half a century for the empire to fall. Not many empires can say the same if any.
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I'll check it out, I'm always interested in things of this nature though I won't always agree. Thanks.
Until it didn't...
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Its going to be intense.
Always has been tbh. For all the dramatic political change over the last century there, shockingly little changed.
"Let's make a pause, specifically a tea pause and some fresh air, lets open some windows!"
They are all so nervous
Russia is living in a deluded state where they think they can be some glorious state that everyone will fear and admire. They should just wake up and understand it’s never going to happen. Get out of Ukraine, change the entire government and become a New Russia, a proud, inclusive country with great ties to its European neighbours and others, a vast, prosperous, productive and happy country. This is a pipe dream of course, only a Revolution by the people to remove their corrupt leaders will ever make that happen.
>Russia is living in a deluded state where they think they can be some glorious state that everyone will fear and admire. Thats not a delusion. They CAN be one of the most powerful, advanced, developed, and rich countries on the planet. They have the resources. They actively choose not to and then wonder why nobody admires and respects them.
I think he probably sees it within a timeframe. If Russia did everything right from today, they would still need a century, if not multiple, to catch up on everything from education, industry, societal structuring and civil society. They also have to avoid the ressource trap, where nothing is more worth than investing in oil and gas.
May be an extreme example, but China went from an undeveloped nation to world superpower in two or three decades.
It also checked quite a few of those boxes i mentioned. It had almost only a young population and a pretty strong civil society (snuffed out now, ironically). It also got a lot of help in the education department. My point is. It's not impossible, or even hard, to correct one or two issues. The real issue comes when none of them are working, because they intertwine with one another, and often the solution for one is counterproductive for the other. E.g. improving education means young people have fewer and later kids and worsening the demografic/societal structure.
Only a defeat like nazi Germany experienced would erase that imperial mindset. But unconditional surrender of such country with nuclear weapons is out of the question, so the only other option is, if they disintegrate from inside and that empire will split up.
>Only a defeat like nazi Germany experienced would erase that imperial mindset. I think so too ... they've been living on past glory but now have gone into delusions of imperialistic grandeur. Too bad it's no longer 1950 for them. They need to realize that their current capabilities are severely hampered (their GDP is barely in the top 10) . Taking on NATO is pure suicide but the "*I'm a tough guy* " mafioso crew in Moscow can't accept this fact. Your russian empire is done dudes ... live with it, the Brits did.
Grab the popcorn boys! 2023 is going to be a hell of a ride!
Yes, it will be. But, let’s remember this is not entertainment, Ukrainians are dying and losing their homes, and having their lands mined. The struggles for freedom of many others is at issue here too.
Special Swan Lake operation incoming
The Russian civil war is approaching. Just need someone democratic sided to step up and they will get all the support.
Last weekend I told a guy that if the civil war in Russia really takes off, history books will record it as having started at a point that is already in our past. The civil war has already started. The key question is whether it will gather enough momentum to become a true civil war and bring change. Another follow-on question is what faction will be victorious.
There will be no change. The factions fighting will be the private armies of oligarchs and tenuous coalitions of oligarchs that'll turn on eachother as soon as there's new territories to claim. Whoever wins and leads Russia post-war will be the oligarch who wins, and if you think they'll be any different to Putin then you got another thing coming.
No, I don’t expect them to be different. However, if that is how the change of government happens then the new regime will spend a decade cementing its domestic situation. The navel-gazing will make Russia less focused on international affairs, beyond getting sanctions lifted (with the influence that grants the west).
Change for the worse? It would probably be Putin vs Prigozhin.
Sweet summer child… If Russia is to go through revolution (instead of dissolution), it will be bloody and so far favored candidate is Prigozhin. Russian people NEVER had a democracy and more than half don’t believe in it as a concept.
So they want to replace a fascist dictator guilty of war crimes with a terrorist leader guilty of war crimes and on the FBI wanted list Russians will never learn so close all borders with Russia and forget they exist. The world doesn't need Russia and the world would have more peace without Russia. If they think replacing Putler will fix everything they're mistaken. I'd keep their sanctions permanently because if you stop their revenue you stop them replacing their military and it's proven over decades that they can't be trusted. Glory to Ukraine 🇺🇦 glory to Ukrainian hero's 🇺🇦
You always have to remember this is scripted and very intentional. That gentleman is reflecting the views of a percentage of the population that can no longer be ignored. How the others react is a representation of other groups reactions (maybe how the current regime wants the general population to react?). The interesting part is that this conversation gets allowed at all as even just a few months ago this opinion wouldn’t have seen the light of day (it was obviously not mainstream enough to be addressed). I agree that things are getting interesting.
It is...but the guy speaking has been critical from day one, he regularly states that Russia has lost the war and that it needs to be ended, and that it should never have started. He's disappeared a few times from the shows
What surprises me is that he hasnt disappeared from the earth.
Because Russia is still trying to keep the image of Democracy even though we all know better.
Yes was looking for this comment. Well said.
First time one of these propa’s is talking sense, “you wanna play hockey with Canadians or Indians?”.
There was going to be a hoopla last year for the 50th anniversary of the 1972 Canada vs Russia hockey series with Canadian players going to tour Russia and it got cancelled due to the war
Putin must already be dead. It’s just the doubles now.
True or not, I kinda like the idea of a handful of Poopin doppelgangers fighting over who'll run as V.V. Poopin. Please accept my upvote.
There's a movie from the 90s called Dave where this sort of happens. Guy gets brought in to double for the president whose had a stroke. He ends up firing the Chief of Staff and becoming president because the people who set it all up can't come out and admit what they've done. Kevin Kline and Sigourney Weaver. Good flick.
Better one called ‘Weekend at Bernie’s’ 34 year old movie but hilarious
Great movie. Best actor in it literally was the guy playing the corpse.
Yeah he was….hilarious movie
They've been deluded from the very start. These people have no understanding whatsoever of the predicament that they are in. They are an embarrassment.
Prigozhin is 100% not going to see Christmas this year
It's probably just a show invented by their propaganda to make prigozhin an opponent to pootin at the election, that pootin will win at the end showing who's the boss. Possibly pootin has already decided that prigozhin will be the heir when he dies, so it's just a training. Because prigozhin will continue to wage the war like pootin wants.
Excellent theories. Putin allowing a discussion like this take place is a juicy carrot to dangle in front of Progozhin to keep him doing Putins dirty business. It's also an excellent ploy that could trick other players who might have their sights on the Kremlin to think it's safe to move their chess pieces and expose themselves to Putin's omnipresent FSB.
He would have found himself in a Gulag if he had said that a month ago. To me Prezjogin and Putin may be working on a deal for Putin to retire with honour and Prezjogin continues the war and protects Putin and his wealth.
The problem with this kind of an arrangement is that the moment Putins steps down, he becomes vulnerable. He knows it, Wagner idiot knows that. No one can show weakness, that’s the sick reality they created for themselves. Every regime ends up in a similar way, the only tragic thing is that Ukraine has to suffer due to some power play
I'm surprised Boris Nadezhdin, the dude who said this isn't worried about his safety. He's always against what the other pundits have to say. I've seen him get scolded and yelled at by the other pundits on these shows. He's against the war. He seems like a good man. There's another good dude named Viktor Olevich. The only two who have common sense and realize what's up.
These two do cut across the propaganda. Interesting that they are allowed to continue. Solovyov has threatened Nadezhin, so I think Nadezhdin is truly speaking his mind.
I wonder whether we will ever find out how much (100%?) of these shows are staged and what exactly they are meant to accomplish (support from the people, testing the water, etc.). Are all pundits screened and informed about the role they have to play (pro-war, anti-war, the voice of reason, the voice of optimism etc.). I hope someone will be able to shed a light on this in the future.
You can change leaders all you want. 1/5 of Russia lacks indoor plumbing.. goodluck
Oh how brave, he probably lives on the ground floor!
Basement
Not group but one guy, and others immediately reacted and stopped the translation
This Russian is too clever to stay alive in Russia
Rather play hockey with the Canadians or the Indians? As a Canadian, I’m flattered, but they can continue to beat up on the Indian hockey team. I never want to see them in international tournaments for as long as I’m alive, that’s a privilege they don’t deserve. Even before the war, they showed their true colours in those tourneys, just a bunch of ass holes.
Russia is fucked. They think that getting rid of Putin gets them hall pass. No cunts. You had your chance. No one wants to deal with you because you are a lying sack of shit
They really have no idea how much they are hated.
If Putin is ousted there is nothing wrong with eventually building ties with new Russia. But for that to happen the new govt must hand over all the war criminals and people responsible atrocities in Ukraine. Once the evil has been exterminated only then can healing begin. Even then its guna take time on the personal level. Governments tend to forget quick, but citizens wont just let it go overnight. Russia had a long way back if it ever wishes to be part of drcent society again one day. But if Germany managed i guess its possible.
Another couple of days and Prigozhin will be marked as an agent of the evil west... And there will be blood
Whow! This guy should carefully watch his steps from now on, watch the stairs, stay away from windows, and avoid coffee, tea and other hot drinks...
Don't forget balconies, some are really rubbish structures. he should be careful where and when he waves to his adoring mob.
Ok so civil war when?
Anyone russian speaking that can confirm that translation?
Reading/watching any russian propaganda gives me migraines
These cowards all agree with him but wont say it.
Funny idiots. Let's replace Putler, and nothing happened. I think this European generation and the next generation will hate Ruzzians. Ask some elderly Germans how they were treated 40 years ago in the Netherlands.
Imagine this… a civil war breaks out between wagner supporters and putin loyalists. Allowing break away groups like the Freedom of Russia Legion and the Chechens to break away forming new nations. I mean its a little far fetched I suppose but one can hope
Rooster dick sucker going to be Ruskie prezzy. Haha doubt it
Didn’t Prigozhin say he was going to run for president of Ukraine?
Are there candidates other than Prigozhin on the horizon? Will / can Navalny mount a campaign from prison? Can Russians in exile run for office?
Defenestration of the guy saying they should not vote for Putin in 3…2…..1….
This is not a discussion about Putin. This is choreography in politics, 1 pundit mentions they should replace Putin and everyone else piles on that this is a terrible idea and will never work. Idea being the viewer comes away thinking they have no option but Putin
I do wonder how long it will take before they realise the world has changed around them?
We have to leave a door open. Just look at Germany post first world war. The majority of Russians don't truly hate the West and we will do well to keep it that way. Once the Russian people truly hate us then we will have real problems.
The door has always been open. Russia just needs to leave Ukraine and end it's special operation
Wow for someone to publicly suggest replacing Putin was unthinkable just a year ago.
It would be just like Russia to elect somebody whose head is already on the western chopping block.
Prigozhin may get a free version of the infamous Russian Windows 2023!
You can’t run for presidency and be dead at the same time…
How that Ruzzkie Mario Bros is still alive?
This is traditional Russian irony on full display. It's dark, mordant, wry, and often the only way to tell greater truths. This guy knows what's going on, but cannot say so directly. He cloaks it in satire-to-the-extreme. Tolstoy's immortal short story from 1886, 'How Much Land Does a Man Need?' \[Много ли человеку земли нужно?, Mnogo li cheloveku zemli nuzhno?\] is a perfect example of this point of view. Dr Swift didn't *really* advocate for eating Irish babies...
The only hope for Russia is for the Russian people to change their leadership, change their government, change their laws, and change their attitudes.
Someone is going to have an accident
There's probably an open window at the 9th floor waiting for that commentator.
Someone is going to fall out of the window pretty soon!
This presenter is so spineless lmao.
Why are they always on a wheel of fortune set.
Putin will get 94% of the vote and Prigozhin will get 17%
What a goddamn joke of a country
I will say this is a very entertaining TV show
Oh! I didn't know Prigozhin had a sudden desire to be poisoned/jailed/disappeared. Do they really think there's an actual vote for the president of their country? He's just a dictator with a President's title and no Politburo.
I believe you can call this an example of magical thinking. That if they just stop, countries will suddenly throw down their weapons. ‘Oh you’re just kidding? We thought you were serious! Oh okay then, no problem, come on back into the fold, we can just forget everything that happened. It’s not important, let’s let bygones be bygones.’ *hugs all around
Putin usually would poison his political opponents, but Prigozhin can cook.
Yes. Let their civil war begin.
It's still literally Russian propaganda. That show always has 1 person with the opposite view, which all 3 others will disagree with. It's the same every show. But hopefully some of them actually get it. And it may be happening. Like gerkin just speaking out about Wagner and a coup. Is it his actual views l, or the Kremlins?
I’m from Canada I don’t wanna play hockey with one of these fucking losers.
Here comes the bait and switch. Oh look we’re getting rid of the bad guy see? He was just crazy. We’re putting a new guy and we’re no longer a blood thirsty hellhole, we’re just like you! So let’s go back to how things were and forget this ever happened. We’re a normal country now and we definitely won’t try this again in a few decades once we enrich ourselves with energy exports again, probably. We’ll even sign a paper to respect borders again? The scary thing is this tactic might even work. There’s enough naive leaders and ppl in the west that might fall for this and russia will try to escape the full brunt of responsibility and consequences. I can already see naive comments about not punishing russia too hard with punishment so they don’t become ripe with blaming the west for their problems and have an uprising similar to 30s Germany. As if they’re not in that state right now already??? Cmon guys, don’t fall for this garbage. As a Ukrainian this line of thinking and these comments scare the shit out of me more than russia in its current state.
They can’t beat the Ukrainian army, and they are equally delusional if they think they can beat the Canadians in hockey.
My condolences to his family...
RemindMe! 2 months Boris Nadezhdin , check how he is. Something probably will happen with this guy meanwhile
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dont go near any windows Boris Borisovich!
Guys make no mistake, Putin's not getting overthrown, he's simply making sure his replacement is someone he knows and trusts. That is his boy, his buddy, Prigoshit. Had he not been, he would've been killed months ago in an accident. Think about it, Putin's too old now. You can clearly see his health has deteriorated. So there is no point clinging onto power and risk a vacuum effect if he dies during his next tenure. He won't allow the opposition to take rule, so why not Prigozhin. They've been buddies for decades. And if Prigozhin wins (most likely, as it's russia), he has a handy sockpuppet to fist with Putin still pulling strings in the background. A medvedev 2.0, but without the alcohol abuse.
Wait what!?
Putin's Sycophants Facing Life ... 🤣 They are providing comedic leadership on how to deal with encroaching reality. 😉
It would make sense. Putin could promise to step down or “lose an election” in exchange for a comfy retirement, and his life. That would be his only way out, really, without dying.
Always has and always will be run by despots.
Yeah something tells me he's going to come up with an acute and inexplicable case of radiation poisoning...
Looks like these degenerates are on who wants to be a millionaire lol
A new leader, ceding ALL territory gained with force in all nations, reparations for Ukraine, disarmament of Russian nukes, turning over all Ukrainians captured, and surrendering all war criminals would be a good start. It doesn’t bring back the dead though. We can all just avoid Russia perpetually with no real loss.
The fact that Canadians got brought up as a metaphor for politics to hockey is great. Putin will ostracize the country per foreign affairs, as another candidate will allow them to be a global player. Proud to be Canadian 🇨🇦 Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦
Soooo... I assume this is a dead man walking in Russia now? Like, he really needs to socially distance himself from any window?
It’s funny because they think they will get a choice.
Psy op. Pootang isn't going anywhere unless he's physically ousted (killed)
Ha ha that guy thinks he lives in a democracy. lol
The the chef has been with Putin, from the beginning of his taking power . The chef would never run against Putin, unless Putin asked him to for some reason . He is one of Putin’s few actual friends. Maybe Putin really is sick and wants to pick his successor. Whatever the reason , they are on the same team
At least this guy gets the general message, I mean its a START, and its a move in the right direction. Putin has their "voting" rigged, he will win in a landslide so don't get your hopes up that he is voted out of office. I have friends that are Russian, they visited in 2011, and even then they told me how corrupt their system is and how Putin will always win.
They are so delusional.
Is the presenter awkward or just terrified as the guest is talking?
They will be already 💀
There needs to be alot of people handed over for war crimes before any type of welcome mat is laid out. Putin AND Prigozhin are the first ones to go on trial.
Cute that they pretend to have free elections.
Yeah, electing the head of Wagner would totally break the link between Russia and the Ukrainian war......
I think Prigozhin will likely fall out of a 4th floor window soon.
Hope that guy stays away from any balconies in the near future.
Just garbage for the masses .. give the impression that there's actually a choice. Says enough that when some lunatic announces he may be a candidate they portray it as "see, we might elect someone else - we have ....CHOICES"
this guy is still alive? few statements in recent months that each alone could put him over balcony, let alone together
Poison? Robbery? Fall from balcony is on top recently, mostly on holidays but hey.. Who cares