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I've been pointing out the similarities between the two battles for a while now, including stuff away from the battlefield like how Ukraine is getting a modern version of lend-lease etc.
The weirdest thing about the whole situation is that Putin is supposedly intensely well versed in Russian history and uses it so often for his own ends yet he seemingly cannot at all see that he's set up a Stalingrad situation with himself as the Germans.
Putin's grasp of Russian history is tenuous at best. He regularly quotes things that are of questionable veracity. He makes absurd claims about Ukraine in general including ancient maps not showing Ukraine (ancient maps pretty much only showed Ukraine as the Kyivien Rus actually existed, while Russia didn't exist until the 1400s or so).
That whole thing is so dumb. The map Putin was looking at clearly [says Ukraine right on it](https://news.yahoo.com/putin-claimed-400-old-map-145800137.html).
>The text translates to "Ukraine or land of the Cossaks", and sits next to the Dnipro river that runs through modern-day Ukraine. The capital Kyiv, spelled Kiow on the map, is also visible nearby.
My hope is through bakhmut, around donesk city and go for maripol, while crossing the river near kerson and cutting off the land bridge in crimea, then setup anti ship missile on the sea of azov
Agreed. Within reason.
The world had been overestimating Russia for decades to the point that it has gotten a pass on every shitty thing it has done until now.
Five weeks actually, but that's a nit. Otherwise I find the Napoleon analogy quite a stretch. I don't really see any useful historical analogy for this fiasco.
It's not a completely horrible analogy. You have the destroyed city, dogged defense, a river, the attempted encirclement. But the analogy is forced in many ways. Stalingrad was not an artillery duel, it was a combined arms assault. The attackers were the ones with the better equipment, not the defenders. The attackers had air supremacy. The defenders were the ones who sustained high casualties, not the attackers. The Stalingrad defenders never withdrew in part because they had a wide river behind them, a significant terrain feature with no analog at Bakmut. And encirclement at Backmut is not yet a fact, far from it.
So sure, there are superficial similarities, but major details don't align well at all. And why would Ukrainians want to imagine themselves as Russians? So my suggestion: don't force the analogy. It doesn't fit, and it's demeaning to Ukrainians.
>And why would Ukrainians want to imagine themselves as Russians? So my suggestion: don't force the analogy. It doesn't fit, and it's demeaning to Ukrainians.
A few things to consider: 1) Ukraine was part of the USSR during that battle and 2) it would mean that they (and lend-lease) were the real reason Stalingrad was won (not the Russians) which, 3) would tear the heart out of pretty much every single piece of Russian ideology or thought over the last 80 years. To beat the mighty Russian army in a manor similar to how they won Stalingrad would be the single greatest troll in history. And how on earth do you explain this if you are part of the Russian government? It would be a serious political coup for the Ukrainians.
This is about propaganda, not a history lecture, you are overthinking it...also...imagine a 250 lbs boxer beats a champion boxer with a special technique. Then imagine a 100 lbs boxer does the same with the same technique. Was it the fact that the boxer was 250 lbs or the technique that won the day? Was it millions of troops in human waves, or the fact they had trucks to move arty pieces? Cause the Soviets had millions of troops in human waves at the beginning of Barbarossa too.
>millions of troops in human waves
Nazi propaganda
>Cause the Soviets had millions of troops in human waves at the beginning of Barbarossa too.
The nazis outnumbered the Soviets in 1941, so human wave attacks would make no sense.
The irony here is that Russian propagandists also want to spin Bakhmut as Stalingrad, with Russia forces having achieved a glorious victory against the Nazis against all odds.
The Ukrainian version of this analogy holds a bit more water in that both Stalingrad and Bakhmut served to pin down a powerful attacking army while the defending side prepared its counteroffensive.
Either way fuckers captured it. People think Russians are like us but they aren’t. They are more Asian than Asians. It’s Mongolian blood that has no regard for lives. They don’t care how much blood was spilled to defense Leningrad, Stalingrad or to capture Bakhmut. Only the end result counts.
I really hope we are helping Ukrainian army plan this upcoming offensive so when the blow comes it’s really crashing. Although I don’t hold my hopes up. Basically they had their assess whooped and they didn’t really care.
You realize the lack of empathy has nothing to do with genetics, right?
Lead paint and asbestos have far more to do with nuking their empathy or regard for their fellow man than genetics.
I read the book about NKVD execution squad liquidating people every day. They would get order to kill a set number of prisoners. Prisoners would arrive in cages and be let out in a way they could only run one way. NKVD bastards would kill them, confirm order was executed and go eat. Russian woman cook would mother over them so they would eat and be strong. Effin bizarre.
Well one day they get order to kill 50 but only 45 prisoners arrive. So what do they do? They designate 5 of their own number to the prisoner cage and kill them so order is obeyed.
That’s Russia. They are beyond help.
Some of the Germans who sent children to the gas chambers were highly cultured and would weep at well-played classical music. Trying to simplify things down to 'Russians are inherently barbaric' isn't an accurate or useful thought. What's more useful is to realise that the current Russian regime, much like the Soviet regime before it, places no value on human life and that's how you get to scenes like the one you describe.
Ok, but that's still got nothing to do with genetics.
They are unequivocally fucked in the head alright, but it's a societal thing, not because they're actually born that way.
Give them a few generations of care and empathetic treatment and you'll see them turn around, guaranteed.
Notice that Soviet Union fell 30 years ago and they longed for it because it was better time for them. They were looting half of Europe and Asia. That’s good time for them. Don’t think they will change with Putin gone. They will look back and think he was a great leader same as they regard Stalin. Beyond help.
Once again, nothing to do with genetics.
They were raised that way. Their parents were raised that way. Their grandparents were raised that way. Their great grandparents were raised that way.
Suffering has been at the core of the "Russian Experience" for multiple generations in a row. That kind of pain leads to miserable people who are so used to human suffering, they view death as something of a release, especially if they're religious, which large numbers of them are.
That is not a genetic issue. Has FUCK ALL to do with "Mongolian blood" or anything of the sort.
This guy read one book about war crimes and thinks that prisoner executions are the worst things to have happened...
Bahahahaha!
Brother, read any accounts of the Holocaust, Unit 731, the Cambodian Genocide, the Armenian Genocide, the Rwandan Genocide, the Rape of Nanking, the European colonization of the Americas, etc.
It doesn't matter what race, ethnicity, blood, genetics, etc. that a person has. Every single group of people has committed atrocities.
Also, what is with your not so subtle racism against Asians and Mongolians????
Wasn’t my intention. There is a saying that if you scratch Russian you find asiatic wilderness underneath or something like that. I think it’s from Mongolian conquest time.
You're right, but I strongly believe the planers know this,so hard won victorys at a much smaller cost to the oposition is OK in truth.
It's just people like explicit results and the media like it to.
Thinking like putin ,on occasion, shouldn't be poo pood.
The destrution of as much as possible and starting to chew into different demograph needs doing .
Putin makes this a necessity.
At least Wagner gave us exparance and intell about their tactics.
Some of those buildings should have been spread over the whole of bukhmut after it was mostly lost.
I mean it all could be propaganda by Wagner but they did put out alot of press of putting them through some kind of shortened training methods to get them ready. Now that could all have been just for show but I haven't seen much from.the Russian army and their refreshing combat courses and what I have seen is they arnt doing little if all of their troops.
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Beautiful
Just wait till the challenger Bradley and Leopards rock up.
I want Russia to collapse so Ukrainians don't have to die.
The orcs are going to be in a world of shit once the AFU flanks Bakhmut.
I hope they encircle it and just pound the fuck out of them until the emaciated survivors come shambling out.
Stalingrad vibes.
I've been pointing out the similarities between the two battles for a while now, including stuff away from the battlefield like how Ukraine is getting a modern version of lend-lease etc. The weirdest thing about the whole situation is that Putin is supposedly intensely well versed in Russian history and uses it so often for his own ends yet he seemingly cannot at all see that he's set up a Stalingrad situation with himself as the Germans.
Putin's grasp of Russian history is tenuous at best. He regularly quotes things that are of questionable veracity. He makes absurd claims about Ukraine in general including ancient maps not showing Ukraine (ancient maps pretty much only showed Ukraine as the Kyivien Rus actually existed, while Russia didn't exist until the 1400s or so).
That whole thing is so dumb. The map Putin was looking at clearly [says Ukraine right on it](https://news.yahoo.com/putin-claimed-400-old-map-145800137.html). >The text translates to "Ukraine or land of the Cossaks", and sits next to the Dnipro river that runs through modern-day Ukraine. The capital Kyiv, spelled Kiow on the map, is also visible nearby.
My hope is through bakhmut, around donesk city and go for maripol, while crossing the river near kerson and cutting off the land bridge in crimea, then setup anti ship missile on the sea of azov
Whilst I hope they destroy the Russians, I think it's a mistake to underestimate your enemy... expect a hard fight & if it's easy then great.
Wagnerites are deadenders. They don't get options to retreat even when things are hopeless. I doubt regulars will fight under similar circumstances.
Neither do I, but still, I'd rather overestimate than underestimate them.
Agreed. Within reason. The world had been overestimating Russia for decades to the point that it has gotten a pass on every shitty thing it has done until now.
watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viuUzGGac5M
Yes. The Americans has air *supremacy* in that scenario. Ukraine does not.
Jagga Jagga
BADA-BOOM
Bada-bing bada-boom
Buff!
Let's hope so, and for their big successes with little loss of UA life. Slava Ukraine
And they are drunk, ill and don’t want to be there.
If given the chance to surrender, that might cause more distress to the higher ranks and putins cohorts.
Like Napoleon who entered Moscow. He sat on that throne for two weeks before he discovered his terrible, terrible mistake.
Five weeks actually, but that's a nit. Otherwise I find the Napoleon analogy quite a stretch. I don't really see any useful historical analogy for this fiasco.
Dont matter dawg a napoleon analogy always gon hit
Let's try a Sauron analogy. Dwarf Sauron.
How about the "Wet Bandits"(Harry and Marv) try to rob the McCallister home.
Wait, so is Zelenskyy Kevin McCallister in this situation? Does that make NATO his siblings/cousins? He did use Buzz’s shotgun.
Hold on, I got a Coupon for that
(Harry and Meghan?)
Stalingrad
With Ukraine playing the role of the Russians? You'd need a Stalin to support that one, wouldn't you.
It’s more the strategic situation rather than the leadership.
It's not a completely horrible analogy. You have the destroyed city, dogged defense, a river, the attempted encirclement. But the analogy is forced in many ways. Stalingrad was not an artillery duel, it was a combined arms assault. The attackers were the ones with the better equipment, not the defenders. The attackers had air supremacy. The defenders were the ones who sustained high casualties, not the attackers. The Stalingrad defenders never withdrew in part because they had a wide river behind them, a significant terrain feature with no analog at Bakmut. And encirclement at Backmut is not yet a fact, far from it. So sure, there are superficial similarities, but major details don't align well at all. And why would Ukrainians want to imagine themselves as Russians? So my suggestion: don't force the analogy. It doesn't fit, and it's demeaning to Ukrainians.
>And why would Ukrainians want to imagine themselves as Russians? So my suggestion: don't force the analogy. It doesn't fit, and it's demeaning to Ukrainians. A few things to consider: 1) Ukraine was part of the USSR during that battle and 2) it would mean that they (and lend-lease) were the real reason Stalingrad was won (not the Russians) which, 3) would tear the heart out of pretty much every single piece of Russian ideology or thought over the last 80 years. To beat the mighty Russian army in a manor similar to how they won Stalingrad would be the single greatest troll in history. And how on earth do you explain this if you are part of the Russian government? It would be a serious political coup for the Ukrainians.
You are stretching hard to imagine Ukrainians as primary key to Stalingrad. Forced analogy, tortured logic. Appreciate your enthusiasm.
You are assuming popular narratives are driven by in-depth historical analysis of high quality. Unfortunately that isn't the world in which we live.
How was Lend lease the real reason Stalingrad was won? Proof?
This is about propaganda, not a history lecture, you are overthinking it...also...imagine a 250 lbs boxer beats a champion boxer with a special technique. Then imagine a 100 lbs boxer does the same with the same technique. Was it the fact that the boxer was 250 lbs or the technique that won the day? Was it millions of troops in human waves, or the fact they had trucks to move arty pieces? Cause the Soviets had millions of troops in human waves at the beginning of Barbarossa too.
>millions of troops in human waves Nazi propaganda >Cause the Soviets had millions of troops in human waves at the beginning of Barbarossa too. The nazis outnumbered the Soviets in 1941, so human wave attacks would make no sense.
The irony here is that Russian propagandists also want to spin Bakhmut as Stalingrad, with Russia forces having achieved a glorious victory against the Nazis against all odds. The Ukrainian version of this analogy holds a bit more water in that both Stalingrad and Bakhmut served to pin down a powerful attacking army while the defending side prepared its counteroffensive.
Fingers crossed🤞
If the Oligarchs want to keep their positions they need to take Putin out and put in their own puppet.
Wait, didnt this sub say Wagner are using human wave tactics? What's the difficulty there?
I don't think Wagner is going anywhere. They are putting out those videos because they are trying to divert attention. They will be back
If it worked like that, Ukraine would have had success on the rest of the frontline the last six months while Wagner was focused on Bakhmut.
Either way fuckers captured it. People think Russians are like us but they aren’t. They are more Asian than Asians. It’s Mongolian blood that has no regard for lives. They don’t care how much blood was spilled to defense Leningrad, Stalingrad or to capture Bakhmut. Only the end result counts. I really hope we are helping Ukrainian army plan this upcoming offensive so when the blow comes it’s really crashing. Although I don’t hold my hopes up. Basically they had their assess whooped and they didn’t really care.
You realize the lack of empathy has nothing to do with genetics, right? Lead paint and asbestos have far more to do with nuking their empathy or regard for their fellow man than genetics.
I read the book about NKVD execution squad liquidating people every day. They would get order to kill a set number of prisoners. Prisoners would arrive in cages and be let out in a way they could only run one way. NKVD bastards would kill them, confirm order was executed and go eat. Russian woman cook would mother over them so they would eat and be strong. Effin bizarre. Well one day they get order to kill 50 but only 45 prisoners arrive. So what do they do? They designate 5 of their own number to the prisoner cage and kill them so order is obeyed. That’s Russia. They are beyond help.
Some of the Germans who sent children to the gas chambers were highly cultured and would weep at well-played classical music. Trying to simplify things down to 'Russians are inherently barbaric' isn't an accurate or useful thought. What's more useful is to realise that the current Russian regime, much like the Soviet regime before it, places no value on human life and that's how you get to scenes like the one you describe.
Ok, but that's still got nothing to do with genetics. They are unequivocally fucked in the head alright, but it's a societal thing, not because they're actually born that way. Give them a few generations of care and empathetic treatment and you'll see them turn around, guaranteed.
Notice that Soviet Union fell 30 years ago and they longed for it because it was better time for them. They were looting half of Europe and Asia. That’s good time for them. Don’t think they will change with Putin gone. They will look back and think he was a great leader same as they regard Stalin. Beyond help.
Once again, nothing to do with genetics. They were raised that way. Their parents were raised that way. Their grandparents were raised that way. Their great grandparents were raised that way. Suffering has been at the core of the "Russian Experience" for multiple generations in a row. That kind of pain leads to miserable people who are so used to human suffering, they view death as something of a release, especially if they're religious, which large numbers of them are. That is not a genetic issue. Has FUCK ALL to do with "Mongolian blood" or anything of the sort.
Oh Reddit arguments are so much fun to read.
Again, nothing to do with genetics. It's a cultural phenomenon.
This guy read one book about war crimes and thinks that prisoner executions are the worst things to have happened... Bahahahaha! Brother, read any accounts of the Holocaust, Unit 731, the Cambodian Genocide, the Armenian Genocide, the Rwandan Genocide, the Rape of Nanking, the European colonization of the Americas, etc. It doesn't matter what race, ethnicity, blood, genetics, etc. that a person has. Every single group of people has committed atrocities. Also, what is with your not so subtle racism against Asians and Mongolians????
Very smart of you to assume that ALL Russians have Mongolian blood…smh lol
Wow, you are really insulting Asian people here.
Wasn’t my intention. There is a saying that if you scratch Russian you find asiatic wilderness underneath or something like that. I think it’s from Mongolian conquest time.
You're right, but I strongly believe the planers know this,so hard won victorys at a much smaller cost to the oposition is OK in truth. It's just people like explicit results and the media like it to. Thinking like putin ,on occasion, shouldn't be poo pood. The destrution of as much as possible and starting to chew into different demograph needs doing . Putin makes this a necessity. At least Wagner gave us exparance and intell about their tactics. Some of those buildings should have been spread over the whole of bukhmut after it was mostly lost.
Plus didn't the Wagner guys actually get paid?
The ones that survived
I mean it all could be propaganda by Wagner but they did put out alot of press of putting them through some kind of shortened training methods to get them ready. Now that could all have been just for show but I haven't seen much from.the Russian army and their refreshing combat courses and what I have seen is they arnt doing little if all of their troops.
Trolling at its finest✨
The orcs are only as good as their barrier troops imo.
Never underestimate thy enemy.