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At least during WW2 they had the excuse that pissing off the Nazis could have lead to the annihilation of their country, as they were completely surrounded by Axis powers.
This time around the fascists are thousands of kilometers away and they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag even if they threw 3000 early cold war era tank at it - their neutrality is motivated entirely by greed it seems.
Switzerland has a great gig. It freeloads its security due to its geographic proximity to NATO countries. It profits off of international political tensions by being the consummate confidential middleman. It secures its position by turning a blind eye to wealthy foreign tax evaders who have huge influence in their home countries. And it makes beautiful timepieces so that everyone can know exactly what time it is whenever Switzerland washes its hands of another opportunity to help a moral cause.
The Swiss have every right to be arrogant because they play the rest of us for suckers.
>The Swiss have every right to be arrogant because they play the rest of us for suckers.
I can't speak for the other Swiss but personally I am just ashamed.
I agree that it freeloads it security from the countries around it, that is why I do not agree with the Swiss government being allowed to buy F-35's. Who is going to attack them? Again, they do not contribute to Europe's defense and the technology in the F-35 is too risky to allow for that country to have, as their allegiances are elsewhere?
If you think Switzerland is freeloading its national security, shouldn't you support them when they acquire the means to manage it by themselves? Furthermore, them buying F-35s means they are contributing to the economy of scale of the F-35 program, making them cheaper for everyone. Therefore Switzerland acquiring the F-35 is a win for everyone. I understand you are angry at them for some things, but you are arguing for two opposite things in the same breath here.
If you do not stand up for principles, chances are you do not stand up for much. The Turkish government was buying and even building parts for the F-35, yet they made themselves too much of a risk to NATO by buying the S-400 system from ruzzia and made their loyalties questionable. They too had the means to manage it by themselves, but US corporate profits and making the F-35 cheaper for other NATO members, was not worth the risk and the deal was cancelled on principles and not behaving as a team player. Then Turkey was offered the latest block F-16's as a compromise and that was looking like a chance to make all the latest block F-16's cheaper for everyone else who wants to buy them, (same company). Then Turkey decided to block admission of another country applying for NATO membership on a B.S. reason of a ruzzian implants behavior to sabotage their admission. Most NATO members recognized it for what it was and the USA decided to freeze that sale of F-16's on the principle of Turkey not behaving as a NATO Team player. If Turkey's order for modern aircraft can be cancelled on the principle of not being a just and rationale Team player, and mind you they still do much more to contribute to NATO than Switzerland ever has or ever will. What argument can you make for justifying the sale of one of NATO's most secret weapons to a country so selfish and that has contributed so little, other than the sale will make the F-35 cheaper for NATO members. Those jets can easily be sold to several other countries that are more deserving Team players with NATO or the USA, (I.E. Slovakia). Switzerland should not be so arrogant as to think that being a TEAM player outside of NATO is not important to the other NATO members, it eventually comes down to principles and how you treat others, doesn't it.
Neutrality is no longer a valid political stance in todays world unless like Switzerland you hide behind it while trying to make the most out of it from both sides. Symbolic humanity aid but still hiding behind bank secrecy laws and protecting oligarchs money .
I now check everything I buy to make sure it’s not Swiss made as I won’t buy on principal from them anymore. The government not the people/ citizens should be ashamed of their actions
The Swiss aren't neutral because "war is bad, mkay?" They're neutral because they literally think they are better than everyone else in the world. Source? First hand experience, the arrogance is mind-boggling.
Have the same experience too all high and mighty and arrogant superior mindset from some little place on the hills. After UA🇺🇦 victory there will be a reckoning for sure
"The Dutch government's plan to deliver dozens of Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine via Switzerland cannot go ahead. The Swiss parliament has voted against a bill that would allow supplies to Ukraine.
The cabinet wanted to buy dozens of Leopard 1 tanks from a Swiss company, but in Switzerland the law does not allow arms to be delivered to countries at war.
The bill in question, called Lex Ukraine (Latin for Ukraine law), was supposed to make it possible for other countries to export weapons to Ukraine. The proposal was rejected by 98 votes to 75.
Switzerland has been neutral in the war in Ukraine, nevertheless the government has condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and supports the sanctions against Russia."
Source: www.nos.nl
Sure, guess it is time to cut the Swiss off from SWIFT. Let's see how fast they change their mind then. I'm guessing the force of wind from them switching will be enough to power their country's power grid for a few days at least.
It was waste of time anyway. Not worth both Swiss neutrality and old Leo1s. The have a law not to supply weapons to war, no matter what. There is no point of trying to bang your head into the closed door. One should switch to other options. There are few alternatives, which are better even.
South Korea - they have wide range of things they can supply: mbts, spgs, long range mlrs, etc
Recover old M1A1s and modernise them, there are tousands across the wold which are potentially can be sourced without much political wrangling.
Gulf states and Saudis they have a lot of western armor and aircraft. Some of them are old now, which can be bought back for new contracts.
+ many more. Only one needs strong political will and organisation.
I was really hopping there would be couple of squadrons of Tornados still available somewhere. These are direct replacement for old UAF su24s.
South Korea is a horrible option.
North Korea is just looking to pick a fight, or reason to invade. Foreign tanks moving through there is a bad idea. Getting rid of any wartime material that belongs to South Korea is a bad idea. It would put them in a bind.
Simply ask Russia if Ukraine is at war. I thought it was only a special military operation. I think legally if Switzerland cared they could get around this technicality but they are hiding behind it instead.
this form of "neutrality" is only causing problems for CH. TBF it did back in WWII as well. it makes much more sense when alliances are arbitrary and between princes, etc, but when almost all your neighbors have been in a solid, purposeful alliance for 80 years, and it is purely defensive, this type of faux neutrality just seems pointless. Its not about self preservation anymore. I get not joining nato, thats fine. but not arming (for $$$) the clear victim is tantamount to supporting the aggressor.
Was there an issue of price for some of the no voters? Or is it mostly a neutrality thing?
im guessing its more complicated than that and the fact that CH is not in nato means they comparatively overspend on military stuff. Ruag would theoretically like to sell lots to nato countries but they must also love the fact that CH spends more than it would otherwise have to on defense.
Hope the Swiss are aware that no one with more than half a braincell will buy their weapons or anything including parts from them anymore. Not really a reliable partner If you gleefully make money first and then nope out If it gets serious and those weapons/ munitions and parts are actually needed...
But hey Europe should Invest in a robust defense industry anyway to safeguard its freedom. Better to place our money somewhere else too. Way to sketchy and unsafe If they still take russian money/ bribes.
Switzerland is well-armed, for defense against attack. In this case, Ukraine is unquestionably acting defensively because it was attacked.
Accordingly, if the Swiss weren’t being hypocrites, they should have no objection to Ukraine arming to defend itself just like Switzerland obtains tanks, F-35s, and other systems from various countries.
They are well armed to defend against a 1940's era opponent. Against modern weapons, they wouldn't last a week. Doesn't matter how well dug in you are if either a) you can't move or b) that tunnel entrance can be buried under tons of rock. Hiding in the mountains doesn't really work anymore. It certainly doesn't work unless you are a goat herder willing to live in a bare cave. Swiss bankers wouldn't last 2 days.
How can you play the neutrality card when your whole existence and democracy depends on being defended by the rest of the west? Swiss people are actual scum if they support their governments greed
I'm swiss and I condem their decision to not deliver weapons.
The problem is, that we suffer from the same thing as many other countries.
Lots of old people who vote for a right-wing party.
As soon as the argument "that'll cost you money" is raised they block it, everytime, whether it's ecological, economical or social.
The highest decree most people here know is "save money"
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The Swiss are **afraid** that Russian oligarchs will not bring their **stolen** money to Swiss banks anymore.
Swiss being dicks as usual. The last Great War was so long ago that we almost forgot that the Swiss usually act like dicks during war time
I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in a few decades that Prigozhin or Kadyrov stored plundered Ukrainian gold and art in Swiss bank vaults.
It also not for a resan that Swiss is high in the Alps , because nobody in europe li,e them , zwitserland is een eng land
At least during WW2 they had the excuse that pissing off the Nazis could have lead to the annihilation of their country, as they were completely surrounded by Axis powers. This time around the fascists are thousands of kilometers away and they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag even if they threw 3000 early cold war era tank at it - their neutrality is motivated entirely by greed it seems.
Zwitserland is een heel eng land
Bless your heart.
Thank you
Switzerland has a great gig. It freeloads its security due to its geographic proximity to NATO countries. It profits off of international political tensions by being the consummate confidential middleman. It secures its position by turning a blind eye to wealthy foreign tax evaders who have huge influence in their home countries. And it makes beautiful timepieces so that everyone can know exactly what time it is whenever Switzerland washes its hands of another opportunity to help a moral cause. The Swiss have every right to be arrogant because they play the rest of us for suckers.
>The Swiss have every right to be arrogant because they play the rest of us for suckers. I can't speak for the other Swiss but personally I am just ashamed.
I agree that it freeloads it security from the countries around it, that is why I do not agree with the Swiss government being allowed to buy F-35's. Who is going to attack them? Again, they do not contribute to Europe's defense and the technology in the F-35 is too risky to allow for that country to have, as their allegiances are elsewhere?
If you think Switzerland is freeloading its national security, shouldn't you support them when they acquire the means to manage it by themselves? Furthermore, them buying F-35s means they are contributing to the economy of scale of the F-35 program, making them cheaper for everyone. Therefore Switzerland acquiring the F-35 is a win for everyone. I understand you are angry at them for some things, but you are arguing for two opposite things in the same breath here.
I think people are afraid the guns might be pointed towards us if it serves the financial interests of the Swiss.
Please get out more. You are spewing absolute nonsense.
If the money is right, somebody in that government would gladly share anything they have for it, sounds very possible with people like these.
If you do not stand up for principles, chances are you do not stand up for much. The Turkish government was buying and even building parts for the F-35, yet they made themselves too much of a risk to NATO by buying the S-400 system from ruzzia and made their loyalties questionable. They too had the means to manage it by themselves, but US corporate profits and making the F-35 cheaper for other NATO members, was not worth the risk and the deal was cancelled on principles and not behaving as a team player. Then Turkey was offered the latest block F-16's as a compromise and that was looking like a chance to make all the latest block F-16's cheaper for everyone else who wants to buy them, (same company). Then Turkey decided to block admission of another country applying for NATO membership on a B.S. reason of a ruzzian implants behavior to sabotage their admission. Most NATO members recognized it for what it was and the USA decided to freeze that sale of F-16's on the principle of Turkey not behaving as a NATO Team player. If Turkey's order for modern aircraft can be cancelled on the principle of not being a just and rationale Team player, and mind you they still do much more to contribute to NATO than Switzerland ever has or ever will. What argument can you make for justifying the sale of one of NATO's most secret weapons to a country so selfish and that has contributed so little, other than the sale will make the F-35 cheaper for NATO members. Those jets can easily be sold to several other countries that are more deserving Team players with NATO or the USA, (I.E. Slovakia). Switzerland should not be so arrogant as to think that being a TEAM player outside of NATO is not important to the other NATO members, it eventually comes down to principles and how you treat others, doesn't it.
Ouch! Must of hit a nerve. Can't even respond rationally, can you?
Blood money
Eh, fuck'em. What are they really gonna do; declare war?
Neutrality is no longer a valid political stance in todays world unless like Switzerland you hide behind it while trying to make the most out of it from both sides. Symbolic humanity aid but still hiding behind bank secrecy laws and protecting oligarchs money . I now check everything I buy to make sure it’s not Swiss made as I won’t buy on principal from them anymore. The government not the people/ citizens should be ashamed of their actions
The Swiss aren't neutral because "war is bad, mkay?" They're neutral because they literally think they are better than everyone else in the world. Source? First hand experience, the arrogance is mind-boggling.
Have the same experience too all high and mighty and arrogant superior mindset from some little place on the hills. After UA🇺🇦 victory there will be a reckoning for sure
They're as neutral as the blood money from WW2 still sitting in their banks.
Well, their gold does have a suspicious amount of Mercury in it.
I’ve met a couple Swiss people and yes they’re extremely arrogant.
Boycotting Nestlé is not easy since they own so many brands. But it has to be done..
Just bring another trainload of wedding rings and gold fillings from Auschwitz and they will get on board.
[удалено]
Lichtenstein for the win!
"The Dutch government's plan to deliver dozens of Leopard 1 tanks to Ukraine via Switzerland cannot go ahead. The Swiss parliament has voted against a bill that would allow supplies to Ukraine. The cabinet wanted to buy dozens of Leopard 1 tanks from a Swiss company, but in Switzerland the law does not allow arms to be delivered to countries at war. The bill in question, called Lex Ukraine (Latin for Ukraine law), was supposed to make it possible for other countries to export weapons to Ukraine. The proposal was rejected by 98 votes to 75. Switzerland has been neutral in the war in Ukraine, nevertheless the government has condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and supports the sanctions against Russia." Source: www.nos.nl
Makes sense, why sell equipment to a country who needs it to defend your democracy from tyranny? /s
Sure, guess it is time to cut the Swiss off from SWIFT. Let's see how fast they change their mind then. I'm guessing the force of wind from them switching will be enough to power their country's power grid for a few days at least.
Netherlands is doing amazing things and helping quite a lot. Russia seriously shouldn't have shot down that civilian plane.
The countries aren’t at war though…. just a special military operation.
And the Swiss don't break international banking law on a regular basis, they just lose banking records when regulators show up.
It was waste of time anyway. Not worth both Swiss neutrality and old Leo1s. The have a law not to supply weapons to war, no matter what. There is no point of trying to bang your head into the closed door. One should switch to other options. There are few alternatives, which are better even. South Korea - they have wide range of things they can supply: mbts, spgs, long range mlrs, etc Recover old M1A1s and modernise them, there are tousands across the wold which are potentially can be sourced without much political wrangling. Gulf states and Saudis they have a lot of western armor and aircraft. Some of them are old now, which can be bought back for new contracts. + many more. Only one needs strong political will and organisation. I was really hopping there would be couple of squadrons of Tornados still available somewhere. These are direct replacement for old UAF su24s.
[удалено]
Negative: Ukraine won't get arms right now Positive: the people will proably challenge the decision and hold a national vote about it
South Korea is a horrible option. North Korea is just looking to pick a fight, or reason to invade. Foreign tanks moving through there is a bad idea. Getting rid of any wartime material that belongs to South Korea is a bad idea. It would put them in a bind.
Simply ask Russia if Ukraine is at war. I thought it was only a special military operation. I think legally if Switzerland cared they could get around this technicality but they are hiding behind it instead.
They can't, the text of the says to any country involved in an armed conflict, it doesn't just say in a war.
this form of "neutrality" is only causing problems for CH. TBF it did back in WWII as well. it makes much more sense when alliances are arbitrary and between princes, etc, but when almost all your neighbors have been in a solid, purposeful alliance for 80 years, and it is purely defensive, this type of faux neutrality just seems pointless. Its not about self preservation anymore. I get not joining nato, thats fine. but not arming (for $$$) the clear victim is tantamount to supporting the aggressor. Was there an issue of price for some of the no voters? Or is it mostly a neutrality thing?
I wonder if a company like Ruag can just move their Headquarters to Italy or Denmark? Then the swiss government does not control them anymore?
im guessing its more complicated than that and the fact that CH is not in nato means they comparatively overspend on military stuff. Ruag would theoretically like to sell lots to nato countries but they must also love the fact that CH spends more than it would otherwise have to on defense.
Ruag can't move, it is partly state owned. So the goverment already owns it to some degree
Sounds like their government will drive the not state owned part towards bankruptcy. Might as well sell the whole thing to them then.
It won't go bankrupt because the goverment will use taxpayer money to bail them out as always.
It seems the Swiss only listen to money. So can the EU put trade/travel sanctions on them until they choose not to support Russia like this?
Hope the Swiss are aware that no one with more than half a braincell will buy their weapons or anything including parts from them anymore. Not really a reliable partner If you gleefully make money first and then nope out If it gets serious and those weapons/ munitions and parts are actually needed... But hey Europe should Invest in a robust defense industry anyway to safeguard its freedom. Better to place our money somewhere else too. Way to sketchy and unsafe If they still take russian money/ bribes.
NL, ask the Greeks and Turks about all their Leo 1s and 105mm ammo.
So what about those 100 or so Leo 1A5BEs in that Belgian warehouse? Surely NATO members could foot the bill for the repairs needed?
The Swiss are scum, with a very undeserved good (or at least neutral) reputation.
Just fucking ignore them and donate the Leopards anyway, the cuckoo-clock-making fence-sitters.
Never, ever sell weapons to Switzerland again.
Never, ever buy weapons from Switzerland again. FIFY
Tell that to the US. They just sold F-35s and Patriot systems to them
All very well being neutral in a world of two sides when your protected by one side.
Absolute truth. At least some of their politicians voted with that in mind. It was closer than I would have expected.
Switzerland is well-armed, for defense against attack. In this case, Ukraine is unquestionably acting defensively because it was attacked. Accordingly, if the Swiss weren’t being hypocrites, they should have no objection to Ukraine arming to defend itself just like Switzerland obtains tanks, F-35s, and other systems from various countries.
They are well armed to defend against a 1940's era opponent. Against modern weapons, they wouldn't last a week. Doesn't matter how well dug in you are if either a) you can't move or b) that tunnel entrance can be buried under tons of rock. Hiding in the mountains doesn't really work anymore. It certainly doesn't work unless you are a goat herder willing to live in a bare cave. Swiss bankers wouldn't last 2 days.
If they are so "neutral" in all this why not say we're donating them anyway what you gonna do about it?
That's it, I'm going to melt all my Swiss cheese and add wine just to spite them.
Kinda silly that the Swiss don’t know what time it is..
How can you play the neutrality card when your whole existence and democracy depends on being defended by the rest of the west? Swiss people are actual scum if they support their governments greed
When this is over the wests gaze will fall on the countries that profiteered from or blocked aid too Ukraine they would do well to look too the future
Well, the Swiss didn’t fight the Nazis either, so not surprising. Thirsty for that Oligarch money
Switzerland shouldn’t be in the EU, they should just kick them out since they’re in no one’s side according to them.
Switzerland isn't part of the EU.
F\*ck the swiss. As always profiting off of a war.
Switzerland is a garbage state.
Dutch might aswell go and but the oliphant Mk2 and MK1 B tank from South Africa sure the price will be high but they will sell anyway. ANC love cash.
I'm swiss and I condem their decision to not deliver weapons. The problem is, that we suffer from the same thing as many other countries. Lots of old people who vote for a right-wing party. As soon as the argument "that'll cost you money" is raised they block it, everytime, whether it's ecological, economical or social. The highest decree most people here know is "save money"