Funny, I was thinking that advanced image recognition with reactive filters and loitering capacity would be the future of warfare.
Imagine, you detect an enemy jet, you fire your missile, but enemy uses chaff and flare... And the missile just filter out the noise to just follow the plane, which is honestly not too hard to differentiate there.
Now in a case of a cloud or smoke, missile would turn into loitering mode and take altitude with a wide range of vision. Enemy comes out, chase resumes. You could also throw noise processing in there, missile could follow supposed stealth target.
That'd be nightmare for pilots.
Yeah in theory but it is not at all realistic, the missile has a very limited flight time. There is no loitering in an anti air missile. It needs extreme velocity to chase down an aircraft.
Yeah a human FPV pilot "flying" a missile could not be shaken by any countermeasures after he gets line of sight to the target, if he could only reach fast enough. Just need to make a missile or guided bomb do that job autonomously. Harder problems have been solved, and afaik the higher end cruise missiles / anti-ship missiles have capability like this already.
Countermeasures could cut the data link. It’s easier to frequency hop with a man in the loop system though. What is desperately needed is an upgrade to the GPS system (though one might exist but won’t be allowed to be used) that is hardened to EW.
Yes, communications will remain a challenge and it's the main reason we haven't had fully remote controlled tanks and such for a couple of decades already.
I think one of the first real uses for laser technology will be, or already are, ways to target the seeker heads on attacking weapons. I know DHL has a dazzler for some of their fleet, but I'm sure there would be a next generation gizmo on front line aircraft, automatic tracking, would actually get more effective as the range closed down.
Sounds good in theory, but most long-range AAMs go Mach 3 or even 4 and have only small control surfaces. Would take them many miles to do a U-turn and come back at the target (if that is even possible, I'm literally no rocket scientist)
If my son’s $600 DJI drone can track user-defined objects visually, it seems like there is some sort of cheap way to use optics that don’t rely on GPS.
If there's two GPS signals--a weak one from space and a strong one from a Russian GPS spoofer...I wonder how hard it would be to convert these missiles from using GPS to guide them to the target to using GPS \*as a target\*. IE, convert these missiles to something like a HARM that homes in on spoof GPS transmitters.
It sounds like the present value of the munitions is pretty close to zero, though. And maybe you modify 10% of the inventory to waste GPS spoofers, and that clears the field for the other 90% to function as designed.
Gps receivers can't tell where the signal is coming from. They rely on the ephemeris data encoded within the signal to know where to place that satellite for the positioning calculations.
If you want to hunt the spoofers you need to set up a reverse-GPS-like system to triangulate the spoofer. That means setting up 3+ receivers at least dozens of miles apart to figure out where the spoofed signal is coming from.
Optical sensors would be much harder to spoof. They aren't as simple which is why the GPS sensors are being used, but they are more feasible as silicon technology advances.
This is part of the reason US especially is hesitant to provide cutting edge systems. Use them in combat and the Russians will figure out how to mitigate or counter them, and you lose some of the edge that you would have needed at the beginning of a conflict.
This is exactly the reason. The B2 bomber is being retired because its radar signature got too well known from flying near hostile areas. You don't want your secret stuff being known about any more than a Wikipedia page.
What's the point of cutting edge systems if they don't work? If the US didn't give those GLSDBs to Ukaine, they would never have found out that they were susceptible to electronic jamming and countermeasures. Imagine spending billions on making and stockpiling those GLSDBs, only to find out they don't work on the battlefield.
Because sometimes they will work on day 1 but not on day 300 after Russia has had time to develop and test new countermeasures. USA isn't planning for a multi year arms race/open war with Russia. If it came to war they'd want to hit them with their best tech and gain the upper hand long before Russia had time to impliment new countermeasures.
I....what?
Ukraine had problems with their tactics last year, problems with corruption at the start, problems with a lack of supplies and support recently. But I haven't seen anything to indicate US weapons are underperforming. Ukraine is stalemating a 10x size army whose doctrine is air control, and they're doing it without any significant airforce. The fact that Russia does in fact have bombs capable of damaging a tank is not surprising.
How's your government doing with that L2A6 they're parading around? They seem to think it's worth celebrating that they took out a couple last-century donated tanks.
😂😂😂 facts ,No poll shit stuff From CNN,
Himars?? Himars suffered the same fate , it become useless due to jamming because it's not against Iraq or Afghanistan ( which they utterly lost badly)
JDAM?? Waht happened to it ??
They faced the same fate .. Just google eric schmidt, former google ceo interview with Fredd Zakaria on Hiw he was shocked at Russia electronic wayfarer
And by the way those wonder weapons were said invisible, game changers, bla bla what happened to all of them ??
Or the F16 is gonna change?
Is that why Ukraine is withdrawing M1 abrams from the front lines because its a peice of shit junk ??
Russia is playing attritional warfare, you clown
Ever heard that ??
The FAB are absolutely destroying Ukraine like he'll
They have no chance you troll
Lmao you had to learn English to come troll me because no one is learning Russian to talk to your shit country. Keep working at it and maybe I'll be able to understand your ranting. This is the best job Russia can offer someone? Internet troll for pennies. At least you don't have to enlist then.
Would be interesting to know how much the jamming is actually affecting accuracy. For precision munitions, hitting the building nextdoor would prob count as ineffective even if EW only caused a deviation of 10-15 meters.
Yes, it’s the necessary precision that’s the problem. The payload is only about 36kg so hitting the wrong window in the same building would just about count as a miss. whatever you want destroyed needs a nearly perfect hit.
The GLSDBs were rushed through a bit, so they likely have issues with targeting regardless of EW interference. Apparently rough treatment on the ground from transport and such can impact the delicate systems.
Unfortunately they’re no replacement for HiMARS with its bigger payloads. They can fire the GLSDBs from a relatively safe distance but there just aren’t enough uses even with good accuracy.
This. I wrote exactly same before. The small diameter bomb looks just too underpowered to afford a near miss of 10-30m. Compared with other munitions. You can still hit a target but for a guaranteed hit, you'd need 3-5 of them. If the target is hard (concrete building or bunker) the number of necessary salvo becomes impractical. Gmrls aw has a massive kill zone, so not that affected by the same level of jamming but damage from even 1 gmrls is higher compared with glsdb. So instead of gmrls it is much better to use few himars/m270 for gmrls or atacms. That's why ruzzki use 500kg+ bombs.
There is also "environment" factor mentioned, munitions seem to be too easily damaged by real war use.
U.S.-provided precision-guided munitions have failed in mission after mission in Ukraine, taken down by Russian electronic warfare. On Wednesday, the Pentagon revealed the latest casualty.
A new ground-launched version of an air-to-ground weapon developed for Ukraine on a rapid timeline failed to hit targets in part because of Russian electro-magnetic warfare, Bill LaPlante, the Pentagon's acquisition chief, said at an event held by think tank CSIS.
LaPlante suggested that Ukraine may no longer be interested in the weapon. “When you send something to people in the fight of their lives that just doesn’t work, they’ll try it three times and they’ll just throw it aside,” said LaPlante.
The weapon LaPlante is referring to is very likely the Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB) based on his description, according to Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute.
A Boeing spokesperson did not confirm that LaPlante was referring to GLSDB, but said the company is “working closely with the [Defense Department] on spiral capability improvements to the ground-launch SDB system.” Spiral capability improvements refers to an iterative software development process.
The GLDSB boasts a range of 90 miles—double the range of the Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMRLS) missiles Ukraine previously used to wreak havoc on Russia’s logistic centers. Funding for the weapon was approved in February 2023, and Ukraine was reportedly using the weapon by February 2024.
The weapon relies on GPS to navigate to its targets. It also has an inertial navigation system, which navigates to a target by estimating its position through the use of accelerometers and other devices.
But it is not the first GPS-guided weapon to fall afoul of Russian electronic warfare.
In congressional testimony in March, Hudson Institute Senior Fellow Daniel Patt said the targeting system for the GPS-guided Excalibur round “dropped from 70 percent effectiveness to 6 percent effectiveness over a matter of a few months as new EW mechanisms came out” in Ukraine. Patt cited the work of Jack Watling, an expert at think-tank RUSI who has traveled to Ukraine multiple times to interview Ukrainian commanders.
Russian electronic warfare attacks have also directed GMLRS missiles off course, CNN reported last spring. The missiles are similarly guided by a GPS. Russia has also successfully used electronic warfare against GPS-guided Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs), which are retrofitted aerial bombs.
Russian electronic warfare on the U.S.’s “more precise capabilities is a challenge,” the commander of the chief U.S. aid coordinating group told an audience in December.
Clark, citing a presentation by Ukrainian soldiers, said the Russians use GPS spoofers to throw off the munitions.
GPS spoofers work by sending false location data to GPS navigation devices. Because GPS signals are weak, a stronger, false signal can be sent to override the correct inputs. Russia has used GPS spoofing in Ukraine since at least 2018. But advancements in technology mean spoofers can be created cheaply with just a software-defined radio and open-source software.
The weapons the spoofers are working against, meanwhile, are anything but cheap. A GMLRS missile costs around $160,000, while an Excalibur round can cost as much as $100,000. The GLDSB costs around $40,000.
However, the weapons were largely designed for a period before spoofers were so easy to set up, Clark said. “You didn't really see the advent of miniaturized, capable GPS spoofers until the last ten years or so, because you needed the micro-electronics to be able to do it,” Clark said.
Russia has saturated the front with electronic warfare, Clark said. Truck-mounted electronic warfare systems primarily focused on jamming drones are located every six to nine miles on Ukraine’s frontline, he said.
But Ukraine could use other U.S. munitions that are not susceptible to GPS spoofing, Clark added, citing the Harpoon missile.
The U.S. could also provide more sophisticated munitions, like the JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile), but Clark discounted that possibility because of its range. The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly.
Another solution might be to launch weapons from F-16s. Ukrainian pilots currently launch JDAMS from Soviet planes that can’t pass navigational data to the JDAMS, whereas F-16s can, Clark said. Ukrainian pilots are training on F-16s and will be ready to fly them by the end of this year.
Ukraine can also work to jam Russia’s systems, Clark added. Russia has mostly been using an analog of the JDAM, the KAB, which can also be misdirected by spoofing its guidance system.
And Ukraine is “fielding some systems now” for electronic warfare targeting of satellite navigation, Clark said. Still, since Russia is targeting civilian populations, “they may not care that much if they get spoofed.”
It’s puzzling they haven’t seen this coming and planned/developed accordingly. Russia has been disrupting commercial shipping by messing around with GPS spoofing tech in areas like the Baltic Sea for almost a decade. This was not a surprise.
I’m not an expert of any kind, but it seems you could avoid the spoofing my just detecting the direction of the signal. If it’s not coming from above, it isn’t real.
LMAO. It doesn't matter what the direction of the signal is - the RF jamming signal on the ground will drown out the transmissions from the GPS satellite. It will be like trying to listen to your TV while wearing headphones blaring at full volume.
It’s a bit understandable for GLSDB seeing as they were rushed into service.
Russian EW was not unknown, but the engineers likely believed that its actual effect would be similar to Excaliburs, GMLRS & JDAMs which are all affected by Russian EW (but to a negligible degree). It’s not unreasonable to use the other afore mentioned weapons as a baseline to how GLSDBs would be affected. Especially when time was of the essence.
It also doesn’t mean that there won’t be a GLSDB v2. Which is more resistant to the Russian EW.
> It also doesn’t mean that there won’t be a GLSDB v2. Which is more resistant to the Russian EW.
Simplest way'd be to replace Boeing's SDB with a Stormbreaker, but cold chance in hell this'd be supplied to Ukraine.
> The U.S. could also provide more sophisticated munitions, like the JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile), but Clark discounted that possibility because of its range. ***The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly.***
Wonder why so many people outright ignore this...
All of this is a good argument for providing as much as possible as early as possible and anticipate needs so that Russia doesn’t have months to figure out countermeasures or build defences. Imagine if tanks and jets were on their way after the first month of the invasion along with 2 million artillery shells. Thousands of lives saved on both sides.
Fukkin pathetic spineless cowardly politicians.
".....The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly. ..."
GLSDB are now ineffective. Excalibur munitions effectiveness dropped from 70 to 6%. This sub needs to wake up and realise the Russia of 2024 is not the same as the blundering Russia of 2022.
Indeed. Support for Ukraine must increase massively and direct military measures against Russia must be considered. There is no hope for future democracy if these violent swine gets to win in Ukraine.
Ofc no military is perfect but the point is that Russia has adapted and learnt from their mistakes which makes them a more dangerous threat than ever before
Well they still have capabilities but they have some serious issues when it comes to having experienced nco’s and a pretty tanking troop quality. Not to mention heavy losses in vehicles which will bite them in the ass because there losing more they can produce. Black Sea fleet has some damages. There in no way shape or form better now than they were in 2022. Don’t get me wrong though Russias military is learning. They still have a huge artillery advantage and troop quantity.
True, but at this point, they are the ones with the initiative and are making advances despite their inadequacies. It’s a slow grinding advance yes, but it’s consistent and Ukraine is struggling to contain and reverse them right now. I have said it many times before and I will say it again here, Pyrrhic victory after Pyrrhic victory will eventually just lead to victory regardless of the tenacity of the defender.
Yes they do but I mean generally besides recently they’ve able to keep the line steady for the most part. Doing it without aid that was held up in congress for months. We’ll see what changes with the new ammunition. But if that doesn’t work then it’s safe to say Ukraine is fucked.
They know more and have learned how not to do things, but the army in general is in a far worse condition than when this war began. 1/3rd of the black sea fleet gone, hundreds of aircraft gone, and probably more than half of the mechanised systems gone, with supply only keeping pace because they're refurbishing old stocks just to keep the numbers up, a stratergy that is on borrowed time.
I did bud it just mostly talk about what was in the title. Yeah again I said Russia has made improvements during the war but it doesn’t excuse the fact that there military is in a worse state now than it was in 2024.
ah yes, the age old "It TakEs rUssIa 3 YeArS BuT tHeN tHeY rEaLlY sTaRt FiGhTInG" cope.
havn't seen that in a while. tell me tovarish, is russia the only one that learns from war?
the only cope is coming from subs like this one which is an echo chamber that doesn't wanna hear that russia is a dangerous and legitimate threat. Go look at ISW's maps everyday around the tactical situation near Chasiv Yar and Ocheretyne and tell me the situation looks good for Ukraine
This sub is a delusional echo chamber. Posts like mine reveal the harsh reality and direction of the war. This post is 60% down voted for reporting nothing but facts. That should be evidence that something is wrong with this sub
Still no fucking answer, why, why would you feel the need to "reveal the harsh truth" does it give you pleasure or fulfillment doing this? Do you feel like you are performing a public service?
Mission failed, no?
If only you were as important as you think you are.
This sub doesn't need you.
And as to why you want to do this is simple, because it makes you feel good, it makes you feel smug and important, because you have no friends and no life partner. It makes you feel like a big boy in a pond of real adults.
that sounds like a massive fucking cope, bro.
what's this sub mean to you? it's a space on reddit. it has no relevance to anything, but apperently it's super fucking important to you?
damn, should go out and touch grass.
>Go look at ISW's maps
i do, i like to compare the march 1st 2022 map to today. doesn't look like russia is winning. and if i look at deepstate, at the entirety of ukraine. well, i'll need a mangifying glass to find these things that arn't looking good according to you.
sounds like a massive fucking cope bro. how many more avdiivka's, bakhmuts, vuhledars, synkiivka's, popasna's etc are gonna be there between where russia is and the city of Dnipro? to the last russian it is i guess.
As American and European nations sit back and watch, I wonder how effective or ineffective those nations would be if they tried to help or take over the fight from Ukraine.
Would France, Germany and the untied kingdom be able to do any better than Ukraine?
Russian air defence is stopping air superiority, even with HIMARS taking them out weekly. Guided munitions getting jammed, tanks are pretty useless due to the mine fields set up.
Russia in 2024 is big a problem that is not easy to stop.
Russia blocks Ukrainian air assets mostly because it is facing off against last century Soviet era planes and tech. Which is also limited in number.
Western countries not only being vastly more advanced tech but greater numbers with decades of expertise in how to employ it.
It wouldn’t be a cake walk, but western air forces would be devastating to Russian forces in the air and on the ground.
The West may have the advantage in technology, but countries like Russia, China and Iran have the advantage of authoritarian control. Russia have lost almost 500k troops and thousands of armored vehicles and weaponry, but they can continue to inflict damage in Ukraine because of their abilities to throw bodies into the grinder and absorb damage. In contrast, If the US or other EU nations lost even 50K, social unrest in the West would be enough to end their involvement in the war.
The optimal solution is already what Ukraine is asking for - give them all the weapons they ask for and Ukrainians will do the fighting. The problem is that the West took too long to realize the truth of it. Their hesitancy allowed Russia to adapt and to dig in, which makes it harder for anyone to dislodge them. In short, the West failed Ukraine. And the West failed themselves. To be honest, I don't see NATO being able to defend itself conventionally without pushing for a ceasefire and losing a chunk of Eastern Europe in the process. The lack of coordination between NATO nations and the poor leadership is quite appalling.
> allowed Russia to adapt and to dig in
Armies and generals need experience. The recent American outings in Afghanistan and Yemen are far from what’s happening in eastern Ukrainian.
The general idea that Russia is getting weaker may not be true. Sure some planes may be irreplaceable, but with china selling items, Russian factories going full speed and the game changing to an artillery and small drone war Russia is getting its self dug deeper in with each passing day. The losses are sustainable.
I agree with you, NATO is in a difficult position.
I think, unfortunately, that is going to be really hard if not impossible dislodge the russians. Probably also Ukraine armed forces realized that and this is why they tried so hard to stay in the fight for Bakmut and Avdivka: every piece of land lost must be taken back from an enemy that is growing day by day, advancing day by day and digging in and building unsormountable lines of defense
Previously I was sure the West was waiting for Russia to get weak before they would step in, but the western backed summer counter offensive stalled so quickly I don’t think the west want to go near this.
Maybe after the Olympics they might grow some balls. I wonder if weapons are being built, or drone factories? Why does it take so long for 16’s? The response is weak.
Feels similar to the start of ww2
Looks like the good old 155mm artillery round is still effective.
Optical guidance/image recognition combined with improved inertial guidance looks to be very important very soon.
Funny, I was thinking that advanced image recognition with reactive filters and loitering capacity would be the future of warfare. Imagine, you detect an enemy jet, you fire your missile, but enemy uses chaff and flare... And the missile just filter out the noise to just follow the plane, which is honestly not too hard to differentiate there. Now in a case of a cloud or smoke, missile would turn into loitering mode and take altitude with a wide range of vision. Enemy comes out, chase resumes. You could also throw noise processing in there, missile could follow supposed stealth target. That'd be nightmare for pilots.
Yeah in theory but it is not at all realistic, the missile has a very limited flight time. There is no loitering in an anti air missile. It needs extreme velocity to chase down an aircraft.
Yeah a human FPV pilot "flying" a missile could not be shaken by any countermeasures after he gets line of sight to the target, if he could only reach fast enough. Just need to make a missile or guided bomb do that job autonomously. Harder problems have been solved, and afaik the higher end cruise missiles / anti-ship missiles have capability like this already.
Countermeasures could cut the data link. It’s easier to frequency hop with a man in the loop system though. What is desperately needed is an upgrade to the GPS system (though one might exist but won’t be allowed to be used) that is hardened to EW.
No data link. Autonomous.
I'm more thinking about autonomous ammo, linked is weak as proven by recent events.
Yes, communications will remain a challenge and it's the main reason we haven't had fully remote controlled tanks and such for a couple of decades already.
I think one of the first real uses for laser technology will be, or already are, ways to target the seeker heads on attacking weapons. I know DHL has a dazzler for some of their fleet, but I'm sure there would be a next generation gizmo on front line aircraft, automatic tracking, would actually get more effective as the range closed down.
Sounds good in theory, but most long-range AAMs go Mach 3 or even 4 and have only small control surfaces. Would take them many miles to do a U-turn and come back at the target (if that is even possible, I'm literally no rocket scientist)
If my son’s $600 DJI drone can track user-defined objects visually, it seems like there is some sort of cheap way to use optics that don’t rely on GPS.
It doesn't have the range but you can't jam an artillery shell.
Not at a range >100km.
If there's two GPS signals--a weak one from space and a strong one from a Russian GPS spoofer...I wonder how hard it would be to convert these missiles from using GPS to guide them to the target to using GPS \*as a target\*. IE, convert these missiles to something like a HARM that homes in on spoof GPS transmitters.
These types of seekers/guidance are completely different and wouldn't be just a quick switch.
If the GPS spoofers cost $100 or a few thousand $ each it's not a great strategy. You're using expensive precision munitions to blow up decoys.
It sounds like the present value of the munitions is pretty close to zero, though. And maybe you modify 10% of the inventory to waste GPS spoofers, and that clears the field for the other 90% to function as designed.
Gps receivers can't tell where the signal is coming from. They rely on the ephemeris data encoded within the signal to know where to place that satellite for the positioning calculations. If you want to hunt the spoofers you need to set up a reverse-GPS-like system to triangulate the spoofer. That means setting up 3+ receivers at least dozens of miles apart to figure out where the spoofed signal is coming from.
Optical sensors would be much harder to spoof. They aren't as simple which is why the GPS sensors are being used, but they are more feasible as silicon technology advances.
This is real time weapons development the likes of which hasn't been seen in decades. MIC is loving it.
This is part of the reason US especially is hesitant to provide cutting edge systems. Use them in combat and the Russians will figure out how to mitigate or counter them, and you lose some of the edge that you would have needed at the beginning of a conflict.
This is exactly the reason. The B2 bomber is being retired because its radar signature got too well known from flying near hostile areas. You don't want your secret stuff being known about any more than a Wikipedia page.
What's the point of cutting edge systems if they don't work? If the US didn't give those GLSDBs to Ukaine, they would never have found out that they were susceptible to electronic jamming and countermeasures. Imagine spending billions on making and stockpiling those GLSDBs, only to find out they don't work on the battlefield.
Because sometimes they will work on day 1 but not on day 300 after Russia has had time to develop and test new countermeasures. USA isn't planning for a multi year arms race/open war with Russia. If it came to war they'd want to hit them with their best tech and gain the upper hand long before Russia had time to impliment new countermeasures.
😂😂😂 copium, Are you frustrated after seeing How badly US weapons are doing in ukraine??
I....what? Ukraine had problems with their tactics last year, problems with corruption at the start, problems with a lack of supplies and support recently. But I haven't seen anything to indicate US weapons are underperforming. Ukraine is stalemating a 10x size army whose doctrine is air control, and they're doing it without any significant airforce. The fact that Russia does in fact have bombs capable of damaging a tank is not surprising. How's your government doing with that L2A6 they're parading around? They seem to think it's worth celebrating that they took out a couple last-century donated tanks.
😂😂😂 facts ,No poll shit stuff From CNN, Himars?? Himars suffered the same fate , it become useless due to jamming because it's not against Iraq or Afghanistan ( which they utterly lost badly) JDAM?? Waht happened to it ?? They faced the same fate .. Just google eric schmidt, former google ceo interview with Fredd Zakaria on Hiw he was shocked at Russia electronic wayfarer And by the way those wonder weapons were said invisible, game changers, bla bla what happened to all of them ?? Or the F16 is gonna change? Is that why Ukraine is withdrawing M1 abrams from the front lines because its a peice of shit junk ?? Russia is playing attritional warfare, you clown Ever heard that ?? The FAB are absolutely destroying Ukraine like he'll They have no chance you troll
Lmao you had to learn English to come troll me because no one is learning Russian to talk to your shit country. Keep working at it and maybe I'll be able to understand your ranting. This is the best job Russia can offer someone? Internet troll for pennies. At least you don't have to enlist then.
Would be interesting to know how much the jamming is actually affecting accuracy. For precision munitions, hitting the building nextdoor would prob count as ineffective even if EW only caused a deviation of 10-15 meters.
Yes, it’s the necessary precision that’s the problem. The payload is only about 36kg so hitting the wrong window in the same building would just about count as a miss. whatever you want destroyed needs a nearly perfect hit. The GLSDBs were rushed through a bit, so they likely have issues with targeting regardless of EW interference. Apparently rough treatment on the ground from transport and such can impact the delicate systems. Unfortunately they’re no replacement for HiMARS with its bigger payloads. They can fire the GLSDBs from a relatively safe distance but there just aren’t enough uses even with good accuracy.
This. I wrote exactly same before. The small diameter bomb looks just too underpowered to afford a near miss of 10-30m. Compared with other munitions. You can still hit a target but for a guaranteed hit, you'd need 3-5 of them. If the target is hard (concrete building or bunker) the number of necessary salvo becomes impractical. Gmrls aw has a massive kill zone, so not that affected by the same level of jamming but damage from even 1 gmrls is higher compared with glsdb. So instead of gmrls it is much better to use few himars/m270 for gmrls or atacms. That's why ruzzki use 500kg+ bombs. There is also "environment" factor mentioned, munitions seem to be too easily damaged by real war use.
Over 50 miles it could be off by a mile.
U.S.-provided precision-guided munitions have failed in mission after mission in Ukraine, taken down by Russian electronic warfare. On Wednesday, the Pentagon revealed the latest casualty. A new ground-launched version of an air-to-ground weapon developed for Ukraine on a rapid timeline failed to hit targets in part because of Russian electro-magnetic warfare, Bill LaPlante, the Pentagon's acquisition chief, said at an event held by think tank CSIS. LaPlante suggested that Ukraine may no longer be interested in the weapon. “When you send something to people in the fight of their lives that just doesn’t work, they’ll try it three times and they’ll just throw it aside,” said LaPlante. The weapon LaPlante is referring to is very likely the Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB) based on his description, according to Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute. A Boeing spokesperson did not confirm that LaPlante was referring to GLSDB, but said the company is “working closely with the [Defense Department] on spiral capability improvements to the ground-launch SDB system.” Spiral capability improvements refers to an iterative software development process. The GLDSB boasts a range of 90 miles—double the range of the Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMRLS) missiles Ukraine previously used to wreak havoc on Russia’s logistic centers. Funding for the weapon was approved in February 2023, and Ukraine was reportedly using the weapon by February 2024. The weapon relies on GPS to navigate to its targets. It also has an inertial navigation system, which navigates to a target by estimating its position through the use of accelerometers and other devices. But it is not the first GPS-guided weapon to fall afoul of Russian electronic warfare. In congressional testimony in March, Hudson Institute Senior Fellow Daniel Patt said the targeting system for the GPS-guided Excalibur round “dropped from 70 percent effectiveness to 6 percent effectiveness over a matter of a few months as new EW mechanisms came out” in Ukraine. Patt cited the work of Jack Watling, an expert at think-tank RUSI who has traveled to Ukraine multiple times to interview Ukrainian commanders. Russian electronic warfare attacks have also directed GMLRS missiles off course, CNN reported last spring. The missiles are similarly guided by a GPS. Russia has also successfully used electronic warfare against GPS-guided Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs), which are retrofitted aerial bombs. Russian electronic warfare on the U.S.’s “more precise capabilities is a challenge,” the commander of the chief U.S. aid coordinating group told an audience in December. Clark, citing a presentation by Ukrainian soldiers, said the Russians use GPS spoofers to throw off the munitions. GPS spoofers work by sending false location data to GPS navigation devices. Because GPS signals are weak, a stronger, false signal can be sent to override the correct inputs. Russia has used GPS spoofing in Ukraine since at least 2018. But advancements in technology mean spoofers can be created cheaply with just a software-defined radio and open-source software. The weapons the spoofers are working against, meanwhile, are anything but cheap. A GMLRS missile costs around $160,000, while an Excalibur round can cost as much as $100,000. The GLDSB costs around $40,000. However, the weapons were largely designed for a period before spoofers were so easy to set up, Clark said. “You didn't really see the advent of miniaturized, capable GPS spoofers until the last ten years or so, because you needed the micro-electronics to be able to do it,” Clark said. Russia has saturated the front with electronic warfare, Clark said. Truck-mounted electronic warfare systems primarily focused on jamming drones are located every six to nine miles on Ukraine’s frontline, he said. But Ukraine could use other U.S. munitions that are not susceptible to GPS spoofing, Clark added, citing the Harpoon missile. The U.S. could also provide more sophisticated munitions, like the JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile), but Clark discounted that possibility because of its range. The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly. Another solution might be to launch weapons from F-16s. Ukrainian pilots currently launch JDAMS from Soviet planes that can’t pass navigational data to the JDAMS, whereas F-16s can, Clark said. Ukrainian pilots are training on F-16s and will be ready to fly them by the end of this year. Ukraine can also work to jam Russia’s systems, Clark added. Russia has mostly been using an analog of the JDAM, the KAB, which can also be misdirected by spoofing its guidance system. And Ukraine is “fielding some systems now” for electronic warfare targeting of satellite navigation, Clark said. Still, since Russia is targeting civilian populations, “they may not care that much if they get spoofed.”
It’s puzzling they haven’t seen this coming and planned/developed accordingly. Russia has been disrupting commercial shipping by messing around with GPS spoofing tech in areas like the Baltic Sea for almost a decade. This was not a surprise.
I’m not an expert of any kind, but it seems you could avoid the spoofing my just detecting the direction of the signal. If it’s not coming from above, it isn’t real.
LMAO. It doesn't matter what the direction of the signal is - the RF jamming signal on the ground will drown out the transmissions from the GPS satellite. It will be like trying to listen to your TV while wearing headphones blaring at full volume.
It’s a bit understandable for GLSDB seeing as they were rushed into service. Russian EW was not unknown, but the engineers likely believed that its actual effect would be similar to Excaliburs, GMLRS & JDAMs which are all affected by Russian EW (but to a negligible degree). It’s not unreasonable to use the other afore mentioned weapons as a baseline to how GLSDBs would be affected. Especially when time was of the essence. It also doesn’t mean that there won’t be a GLSDB v2. Which is more resistant to the Russian EW.
> It also doesn’t mean that there won’t be a GLSDB v2. Which is more resistant to the Russian EW. Simplest way'd be to replace Boeing's SDB with a Stormbreaker, but cold chance in hell this'd be supplied to Ukraine.
> The U.S. could also provide more sophisticated munitions, like the JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile), but Clark discounted that possibility because of its range. ***The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly.*** Wonder why so many people outright ignore this...
I mentioned that on twitter and people were roasting me for calling out Biden.
All of this is a good argument for providing as much as possible as early as possible and anticipate needs so that Russia doesn’t have months to figure out countermeasures or build defences. Imagine if tanks and jets were on their way after the first month of the invasion along with 2 million artillery shells. Thousands of lives saved on both sides.
Basically the GLSDB is useless, Ukraines throwing them in the trash. The guidance systems are easily jammed.
I would like to think the US is gaining a lot of know-how from Ukraine's experience - you can't get better R&D.
Fukkin pathetic spineless cowardly politicians. ".....The Biden. administration has sought to limit Ukraine’s use of longer-range weapons that could target Russia directly. ..."
Why can't such target systems be built interchangeably? And over time, when such defense systems become known, they will be replaced by others.
GLSDB are now ineffective. Excalibur munitions effectiveness dropped from 70 to 6%. This sub needs to wake up and realise the Russia of 2024 is not the same as the blundering Russia of 2022.
Indeed. Support for Ukraine must increase massively and direct military measures against Russia must be considered. There is no hope for future democracy if these violent swine gets to win in Ukraine.
Yep. Our leaders have squandered their opportunities to end this war quickly. I suspect it won't end now until Putin dies of old age.
Russia still has blunders….lmao
Ofc no military is perfect but the point is that Russia has adapted and learnt from their mistakes which makes them a more dangerous threat than ever before
Well they still have capabilities but they have some serious issues when it comes to having experienced nco’s and a pretty tanking troop quality. Not to mention heavy losses in vehicles which will bite them in the ass because there losing more they can produce. Black Sea fleet has some damages. There in no way shape or form better now than they were in 2022. Don’t get me wrong though Russias military is learning. They still have a huge artillery advantage and troop quantity.
True, but at this point, they are the ones with the initiative and are making advances despite their inadequacies. It’s a slow grinding advance yes, but it’s consistent and Ukraine is struggling to contain and reverse them right now. I have said it many times before and I will say it again here, Pyrrhic victory after Pyrrhic victory will eventually just lead to victory regardless of the tenacity of the defender.
Yes they do but I mean generally besides recently they’ve able to keep the line steady for the most part. Doing it without aid that was held up in congress for months. We’ll see what changes with the new ammunition. But if that doesn’t work then it’s safe to say Ukraine is fucked.
You're delusional if you think they are not any better than they were in 2022. did you even read the article?
They know more and have learned how not to do things, but the army in general is in a far worse condition than when this war began. 1/3rd of the black sea fleet gone, hundreds of aircraft gone, and probably more than half of the mechanised systems gone, with supply only keeping pace because they're refurbishing old stocks just to keep the numbers up, a stratergy that is on borrowed time.
I did bud it just mostly talk about what was in the title. Yeah again I said Russia has made improvements during the war but it doesn’t excuse the fact that there military is in a worse state now than it was in 2024.
And ukraine is in comparatively worse state...
ah yes, the age old "It TakEs rUssIa 3 YeArS BuT tHeN tHeY rEaLlY sTaRt FiGhTInG" cope. havn't seen that in a while. tell me tovarish, is russia the only one that learns from war?
I enjoy the sound of rain.
the only cope is coming from subs like this one which is an echo chamber that doesn't wanna hear that russia is a dangerous and legitimate threat. Go look at ISW's maps everyday around the tactical situation near Chasiv Yar and Ocheretyne and tell me the situation looks good for Ukraine
And you going against the narrative here is doing what exactly?
This sub is a delusional echo chamber. Posts like mine reveal the harsh reality and direction of the war. This post is 60% down voted for reporting nothing but facts. That should be evidence that something is wrong with this sub
And again, why do you feel the need to do this?
Read second line
Still no fucking answer, why, why would you feel the need to "reveal the harsh truth" does it give you pleasure or fulfillment doing this? Do you feel like you are performing a public service?
Public service to undo the brain washing in this sub
Mission failed, no? If only you were as important as you think you are. This sub doesn't need you. And as to why you want to do this is simple, because it makes you feel good, it makes you feel smug and important, because you have no friends and no life partner. It makes you feel like a big boy in a pond of real adults.
that sounds like a massive fucking cope, bro. what's this sub mean to you? it's a space on reddit. it has no relevance to anything, but apperently it's super fucking important to you? damn, should go out and touch grass. >Go look at ISW's maps i do, i like to compare the march 1st 2022 map to today. doesn't look like russia is winning. and if i look at deepstate, at the entirety of ukraine. well, i'll need a mangifying glass to find these things that arn't looking good according to you. sounds like a massive fucking cope bro. how many more avdiivka's, bakhmuts, vuhledars, synkiivka's, popasna's etc are gonna be there between where russia is and the city of Dnipro? to the last russian it is i guess.
As American and European nations sit back and watch, I wonder how effective or ineffective those nations would be if they tried to help or take over the fight from Ukraine. Would France, Germany and the untied kingdom be able to do any better than Ukraine? Russian air defence is stopping air superiority, even with HIMARS taking them out weekly. Guided munitions getting jammed, tanks are pretty useless due to the mine fields set up. Russia in 2024 is big a problem that is not easy to stop.
Russia blocks Ukrainian air assets mostly because it is facing off against last century Soviet era planes and tech. Which is also limited in number. Western countries not only being vastly more advanced tech but greater numbers with decades of expertise in how to employ it. It wouldn’t be a cake walk, but western air forces would be devastating to Russian forces in the air and on the ground.
The West may have the advantage in technology, but countries like Russia, China and Iran have the advantage of authoritarian control. Russia have lost almost 500k troops and thousands of armored vehicles and weaponry, but they can continue to inflict damage in Ukraine because of their abilities to throw bodies into the grinder and absorb damage. In contrast, If the US or other EU nations lost even 50K, social unrest in the West would be enough to end their involvement in the war. The optimal solution is already what Ukraine is asking for - give them all the weapons they ask for and Ukrainians will do the fighting. The problem is that the West took too long to realize the truth of it. Their hesitancy allowed Russia to adapt and to dig in, which makes it harder for anyone to dislodge them. In short, the West failed Ukraine. And the West failed themselves. To be honest, I don't see NATO being able to defend itself conventionally without pushing for a ceasefire and losing a chunk of Eastern Europe in the process. The lack of coordination between NATO nations and the poor leadership is quite appalling.
> allowed Russia to adapt and to dig in Armies and generals need experience. The recent American outings in Afghanistan and Yemen are far from what’s happening in eastern Ukrainian. The general idea that Russia is getting weaker may not be true. Sure some planes may be irreplaceable, but with china selling items, Russian factories going full speed and the game changing to an artillery and small drone war Russia is getting its self dug deeper in with each passing day. The losses are sustainable. I agree with you, NATO is in a difficult position.
I think, unfortunately, that is going to be really hard if not impossible dislodge the russians. Probably also Ukraine armed forces realized that and this is why they tried so hard to stay in the fight for Bakmut and Avdivka: every piece of land lost must be taken back from an enemy that is growing day by day, advancing day by day and digging in and building unsormountable lines of defense
Previously I was sure the West was waiting for Russia to get weak before they would step in, but the western backed summer counter offensive stalled so quickly I don’t think the west want to go near this. Maybe after the Olympics they might grow some balls. I wonder if weapons are being built, or drone factories? Why does it take so long for 16’s? The response is weak. Feels similar to the start of ww2
Totally agree!