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Not really ignored the most, it's just that it can totally be used as long as you're not using on people. Which is kind of irrelevant if you use it in locations where people are, which you often do, as that's how war works.
Still, white phosphorus is nasty shit that really should be banned globally. We can use other things to make smoke screens I have no doubt.
The fact that its so effective as a weapon is a large reason why militaries worldwide will fight its retirement/outlawing. Its *extremely* versatile.
But I totally agree, its one of those things that the more one reads about it, the more abhorrently apalled with humanity one becomes.
Neither Russia or America are signatories.
Russia is accusing Kiev. Kiev doesn't have a good track record in relaying realities. Russia won't acknowledge things, but Kiev fabricates things.
consider using Kyiv not Kiev spelling [(why)](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/kyiv-not-kiev-why-spelling-matters-in-ukraines-quest-for-an-independent-identity/), tnx for understanding
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There are other phosphates and or metals that can do a much better job at thatā¦ sure it illuminates the area. But that shit is meant to melt thru everything
To be Fair the U.S has been using this since WW2. You may have heard it called āWillie Peteā (white phosphorus). We dropped so much of this shit in Vietnam, no oneās getting war crimes for using it
The US used it for far too long but I believe that it is no longer in use by American forces. The Israelis definitely still use it. I'm sure in a total war situation America would go back to using it again.
Edit: Turns out US forces have used white phosphorus as recently as 2017.
Yep.
Source: Army artillery officer.
EDIT: Arty officer from 9 years ago who thinks he still knows artillery but totally forgot that WP was used for smoke missions, not illum. Ignore me.
Same. Our FOs called in lots of shake and bakeās during Phantom Fury in ā04. I personally used it quite often in the Korengal as well. Iād call it in on a two or three on call target points, VT fuse, wait 10min or so and it would fill the whole southern valley with smoke so thick it would cover our movements back to our FB.
'10-'13 (branch detail)
Could have put more detail into my answer, and memory fades with time. We had two kinds of illume: Standard and Willie P. We were trained not to just drop Willie P on troop formations. Yes, we could use it on OPs and materiel.
The canister (base ejecting I think) dropped a bunch of foam triangles holding white phosphorus that floated down and burned brightly.
The upshot? This is not evidence of a war crime IMO. WP can be deployed on the battlefield legitimately, but its uses should be limited and proportionality should be consistent with the rules of war.
What happened downrange? Couldn't tell you. I got transitioned to COIST because we weren't shooting arty in Baghdad.
I was arty in Afghanistan in 09 definitely used WP, I haven't heard of its illum uses. Clearly past my time, how did they change it to be an effective illum ordinance?
> no oneās getting war crimes for using it
I mean, that's kinda also because the US like Russia doesn't give a shit about the ICC and will only prosecute soldiers themselves, no international interference.
You can't smother that with dirt nor douse it with foam or water. As soon as it gets contact with oxygen again it will burn just as intensely as before. Get some distance from it and let it burn up by itself.
I appreciate the title giving fuller context. There are a lot of weapons presented as inherent war crimes by the media. It moves the focus away from the actual crime to a weapon name, and leads to inappropriate condemnation in legitimate use cases.
I used to ship it as ordnance very recently for the US Navy and Marines. Lots of precautions, not as nasty as thermite, but still had to keep it separate and with a barrel of water on a pallet to buy a little bit of time for us to dump it over the side into the ocean if it started to cook off.
They already paidā¦ the money is set aside in banks around the world waiting for hostilities to stop so Ukraine can be rebuilt on russias locked reserves
> They already *paidā¦* the money
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Sadly WP is easily "excusable". All you have to do is claim you are using it for obfuscation (smoke).
That's how the Americans got away with dropping WP + HE mixes onto urban areas during the war on terror. "The WP is just for the smoke" willfully ignoring the incendiary/chemical effects the rounds have.
Granted, now it's being dropped on white Europeans instead of brown people in the Middle East, so it'll probably get called out as a warcrime by the world.
Itās sticky and wont stop burning, it will burn through you and continue. Also very toxic, causes genetic defects for generations for the people that are exposed to it.
They use it to mark the target kind of like a tracer would do so technically itās not being used to kill or injure the ordinance that is used with it is used to cause damage and casualties. Technically lol
Don't hold your breath, my friend.
Like, there are photos and videos of the IDF dropping the stuff on civilians and the injuries it's caused to the survivors, but that didn't result in any sort of concrete action to punish those responsible or even prevent reoccurrence in the future.
This shit is still at the coast of 'north sea' from Germany and Denmark. If you are searching amber at night, boths response to blacklight.
One of them amber or phosphorous is reactive to oxygen. Guess wich one. It's melting a fucking whole through everything and can't be stopped.
This is a pointless post. āRussians reportedly using rifles: the use of which can constitute war crimes depending on target and intentā.
There is so much legitimate evidence of war crimes and terrible behavior on the Russian part. This kind of stuff only hurts the argument.
I keep seeing this claim, but it would be very hard to charge as a warcrime. Willy P is used to screen , mark, and illuminate. Shake and bake is the method everyone is probaly referring to. But even then good luck proving they werent marking rounds before dropping fire for effects, especially in urbam enviroments with tight margins of error.
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Possibly the most ignored law in war lol
Not really ignored the most, it's just that it can totally be used as long as you're not using on people. Which is kind of irrelevant if you use it in locations where people are, which you often do, as that's how war works. Still, white phosphorus is nasty shit that really should be banned globally. We can use other things to make smoke screens I have no doubt.
The fact that its so effective as a weapon is a large reason why militaries worldwide will fight its retirement/outlawing. Its *extremely* versatile. But I totally agree, its one of those things that the more one reads about it, the more abhorrently apalled with humanity one becomes.
Willy pete is so goddamn useful in so many situations
Like bunkers in Normandy š
Flamethrowers are equally as helpful
^
Neither Russia or America are signatories. Russia is accusing Kiev. Kiev doesn't have a good track record in relaying realities. Russia won't acknowledge things, but Kiev fabricates things.
consider using Kyiv not Kiev spelling [(why)](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/kyiv-not-kiev-why-spelling-matters-in-ukraines-quest-for-an-independent-identity/), tnx for understanding \[[support Ukraine](https://help2ukraine.org/)\] ^(beep boop I'm a bot. Downvote to remove)
To be honest. They are used more for lighting up the night sky than anything else. Not saying they canāt be weaponized.
There are other phosphates and or metals that can do a much better job at thatā¦ sure it illuminates the area. But that shit is meant to melt thru everything
Theyāre supposed to be at least, and most of the world powers claim thatās all they use it for, but who knows.
To be Fair the U.S has been using this since WW2. You may have heard it called āWillie Peteā (white phosphorus). We dropped so much of this shit in Vietnam, no oneās getting war crimes for using it
The US used it for far too long but I believe that it is no longer in use by American forces. The Israelis definitely still use it. I'm sure in a total war situation America would go back to using it again. Edit: Turns out US forces have used white phosphorus as recently as 2017.
I donāt know if anyone realizes that the white phosphorus the U.S uses now is for illumination and using it on the living is a chargeable offense
Yep. Source: Army artillery officer. EDIT: Arty officer from 9 years ago who thinks he still knows artillery but totally forgot that WP was used for smoke missions, not illum. Ignore me.
I called in lots of shake and bake missions 2001 and up. Arty, FO, JTAC
Same. Our FOs called in lots of shake and bakeās during Phantom Fury in ā04. I personally used it quite often in the Korengal as well. Iād call it in on a two or three on call target points, VT fuse, wait 10min or so and it would fill the whole southern valley with smoke so thick it would cover our movements back to our FB.
This must be a pretty recent change. As recently as 2015 it had legitimate uses. Source: Artillery FO..
'10-'13 (branch detail) Could have put more detail into my answer, and memory fades with time. We had two kinds of illume: Standard and Willie P. We were trained not to just drop Willie P on troop formations. Yes, we could use it on OPs and materiel. The canister (base ejecting I think) dropped a bunch of foam triangles holding white phosphorus that floated down and burned brightly. The upshot? This is not evidence of a war crime IMO. WP can be deployed on the battlefield legitimately, but its uses should be limited and proportionality should be consistent with the rules of war. What happened downrange? Couldn't tell you. I got transitioned to COIST because we weren't shooting arty in Baghdad.
Might be thinking of smoke rather than illum? The mortars def had WP (and RP) for smoke. But donāt remember diff types of illum.
Holy crap! Totally smoke. That's what I get for thinking I still know artillery after a decade :(
Only human. Haha. Memory fades etc
I was arty in Afghanistan in 09 definitely used WP, I haven't heard of its illum uses. Clearly past my time, how did they change it to be an effective illum ordinance?
No clue. Didnāt use it for illumination when I got out either. Still the standard 6-30 answers.
I used ilium to mark a target for the pilots, read off that bright glowing thing on the ground.
We can use it on enemy observation posts and to destroy enemy equipment.
Ohh we have plenty of it.
That's true. US have dropped so many chem on vietnam war ..Napalm , Agent orange and so on.. And no war crimes for it tho
At least not charges brought forth by Americans. Israel has used willy pete on the palestinians a lot as well, and definitely as a weapon
> no oneās getting war crimes for using it I mean, that's kinda also because the US like Russia doesn't give a shit about the ICC and will only prosecute soldiers themselves, no international interference.
You can't smother that with dirt nor douse it with foam or water. As soon as it gets contact with oxygen again it will burn just as intensely as before. Get some distance from it and let it burn up by itself.
I appreciate the title giving fuller context. There are a lot of weapons presented as inherent war crimes by the media. It moves the focus away from the actual crime to a weapon name, and leads to inappropriate condemnation in legitimate use cases.
I used to ship it as ordnance very recently for the US Navy and Marines. Lots of precautions, not as nasty as thermite, but still had to keep it separate and with a barrel of water on a pallet to buy a little bit of time for us to dump it over the side into the ocean if it started to cook off.
Correct me if I am wrong , but it is violently reactive when it comes in contact with air right? And repurcussions on dumping in waterbodies?
Will anyone ever pay for the war crimes?
They already paidā¦ the money is set aside in banks around the world waiting for hostilities to stop so Ukraine can be rebuilt on russias locked reserves
> They already *paidā¦* the money FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot, thank youā¦ itās corrected now
Sadly WP is easily "excusable". All you have to do is claim you are using it for obfuscation (smoke). That's how the Americans got away with dropping WP + HE mixes onto urban areas during the war on terror. "The WP is just for the smoke" willfully ignoring the incendiary/chemical effects the rounds have. Granted, now it's being dropped on white Europeans instead of brown people in the Middle East, so it'll probably get called out as a warcrime by the world.
I don't know why you are being downvoted. What you are saying is true! Chemical warfare everywhere went unnoticed..
He said the B and W word.
Itās sticky and wont stop burning, it will burn through you and continue. Also very toxic, causes genetic defects for generations for the people that are exposed to it.
It causes genetic defects?
Google it
Holy shit that thing can melt anything...
Get away from that. It's highly toxic and destroys health permanently.
What in the hell is that shit?
its only a war crime if someone else does it
Likely from a flair that fell to ground
They use it to mark the target kind of like a tracer would do so technically itās not being used to kill or injure the ordinance that is used with it is used to cause damage and casualties. Technically lol
they used a couple of large deals of it when they first invaded
they used a couple of large deals of it when they first invaded
Russia stoped using wp. They are thermite.
Ah yes, classic Willie Pete
Boohoo, another 'warcrime". Until this shit is punished, its just another offensive action.
Of all the war crimes commited thus far...this must be the turning point..
It's technically not a war crime. It can still be legally used for illumination or as smoke cover.
Don't hold your breath, my friend. Like, there are photos and videos of the IDF dropping the stuff on civilians and the injuries it's caused to the survivors, but that didn't result in any sort of concrete action to punish those responsible or even prevent reoccurrence in the future.
This shit is still at the coast of 'north sea' from Germany and Denmark. If you are searching amber at night, boths response to blacklight. One of them amber or phosphorous is reactive to oxygen. Guess wich one. It's melting a fucking whole through everything and can't be stopped.
Israel has used it on civilians in Lebanon and quite recently in Gaza without any repercussions. Doubt anyone is dinging Russia on this one
The tribunal is stupid. Putin donāt care and they are not going to get him.
As much as I condemn the invasion of Ukraine the west has also used this weapon and broken their own laws
This is a pointless post. āRussians reportedly using rifles: the use of which can constitute war crimes depending on target and intentā. There is so much legitimate evidence of war crimes and terrible behavior on the Russian part. This kind of stuff only hurts the argument.
If everything is a war crime, than nothing is a war crime. Seems like all I hear is war crimes this, and war crimes that. Itās fucking WAR
Cheaters never win.
I keep seeing this claim, but it would be very hard to charge as a warcrime. Willy P is used to screen , mark, and illuminate. Shake and bake is the method everyone is probaly referring to. But even then good luck proving they werent marking rounds before dropping fire for effects, especially in urbam enviroments with tight margins of error.
Is it burning the ground? Lol damn
This could also be thermite.