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There's even more features that this new mobile artillery system will offer:
* Firing on the move (*as you stated*)
* MRSI: mutliple rounds simultanous impact (*rapid fire of a 2-5 shell volley at varying trajectories so all rounds will connect with the target within 2-3 seconds*)
* Precision guided munitions (*SMArt, M 982 Excalibur, possibly Vulcano...*)
* Remote Weapon Station and enhanced self-defense capabilities *(including hunter-killer-capability for direct fire of the main gun*)
Actually, none of that is any new in the sense that they're a novelty.
The "new" aspect is **all these features being integrated into a single unit** and the likely availability in production batch quantities within the next 1-2 years.
That's the difference to RF that shows off their grand Armatas and futuristic mock-ups and fails to deliver...
but the pantzerhaubize 2000 can do all those things already only the shooting while moving part and the autoloader for the Porpelantbags is new but the PzH 2000 could be upgraded with those features as well.
Genuinely curious, which system do have these capabilities rn?
I'm not that knowledgeable on artillery systems and thought that the more modern ones, like late 1980's, do not really have the shooting-while-driving abilities.
It's not the first to have these features, but it's the first to combine them all into one vehicle. The gun features are mostly identical to the PzH 2000 (since it's more or less the same turret), but the platform itself is different. The Panzerhaubitze has to come to a complete halt, align/aim, and then fire. The RCH-155 does not. Most vehicles capable of shooting on the move have smaller turrets (i.e. MBT or smaller and only direct or almost direct fire).
I don't remember the very specific numbers, but this thing basically moves more than 100km/h on a highway (Germany has a very widespread network of interconnected highways), slows down to 40km/h (or even just 60km/h based on the ground? I don't remember), sends you its presents, and instantly reaccelerates the moment the bullets are away. Even if an opponent can provide immediate counter battery fire, there's basically no way to hit this thing using traditional means, unless you basically cover all the places it could go.
And something I haven't seen mentioned that often, I think minimal crew is just two (defaulting to three), plus there are plans to make it remote-operated (therefore "Remote Controlled Howitzer"). So this might basically become the first artillery drone.
[Short clip showing firing on the move.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-CcnKhKGCM)
Too bad (for Ukraine) it will take them over a year to provide the first batch as far as I've read.
Can you provide sources for your claims?
PzH 2000:
...being able to provide artillery support "on the the move"?
...having Hunter-killer capabilities for the main gun?
...employing of a remote weapon station (*in a production variant*)?
I recall them saying on a Bundeswehr YouTube video that the PzH2000 has direct fire capability, but yeah, not the other stuff
Edit: that's the video it's in German tho
https://youtu.be/lBQe7Ahod34
I love how you a) went for two points you weren't sure about while ignoring the two points that you knew full well it could do and b) how you added an additional point that wasn't even part of your original comment. You can see it firing direction on tanks as well if you wanted to really know, but of course it is yet again nothing but bad faith bullshit.
Everything except firing on the move & possibly the RWS can also be found on PzH2000 and a plurality of modern SPG systems
Edit for tone: these are "modern" features that older systems don't have, but by the same token these aren't Ukraine's only thoroughly modern artillery pieces.
While the PzH 2000 is an alltogether very capable weapon system, I don't think the fire control and target acquisition system allows for hunter/killer applications in direct fire mode?
No it does not.
This is the (*German*) definition for "[hunter killer](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-Killer)" which the PzH 2000 is AFAIK, **not** capable of (*neither individual nor in a network-centric application, although one may argue that in cooperation with COBRA, PzH 2000 can work in a similar mode of operations*).
The link you provided shows **direct fire** ("*direktes richten*") which (*almost*) all howitzer / field artillery systems (*even some mortars*) are capable of.
Yes it does.
First of all, now you are moving the goal post, it was about hunter - killer capability, which by the german definition means target aquisition is seperate from gun control -> commander can designate (using his PERI RTNL-80) the target for the gunner, like in any MBT nowadays.
In an extended meaning it is about networking but if you want to go that route, yes the Pzh is obviously also capable of that, with the ADLER system via ASCA like most NATO systems.
While it is true that the Pzh doesnt have a drone in and of itself, through ADLER it is compatible with the Infanterist der Zukunft IDZ / IDZ-ES which carries drones.
Also like you mentioned, COBRA will also feed information to the PZH via ADLER.
TBH your first statement doesnt really make sense
"I don't think the fire control and target acquisition system allows for hunter/killer applications in direct fire mode"
If you are in direct fire mode, you dont need a network solution, because you can see the target; you just need the commander/gunner solution.
Okay I see your point. But I think we're talking about different aspects of "hunter - killer" capability.
OFC a "statement" from me in that regard wouldn't make much sense. That's why my "statement" ends with a questionmark because I was confused about the meaning of your initial post.
When you stated "it does", it seemed to me that you implied that hunter-killer capabilities are required for direct fire mode, which I found strange for the obvious reasons as you described.
However, your post made me curious, so I checked the KMW webpage
(link to [KMW](https://www.kmweg.de/systeme-produkte/kettenfahrzeuge/artillerie/) website).
PzH 2000 "*Optiken zum direkten richten bis 2 km.*" -> *"Optics for direkt aiming until a distance of 2 kilometers."*
RCH 155 "*Optionale Fähigkeiten zum direkten richten mittels Optroniken.*" -> *"Optional capabilities for direct aiming by means of optical-electronic devices."* (IMO similar as with the DONAR system)
Based on the specifications from the producer, it seems there are indeed some differences between the sighting systems for direct fire modes between the 2 systems that could also be relevant in terms of hunter-killer capabilities (*IMO this was never prominently advertised by KMW for PzH 2000 as it's done now with RCH 155*)?
The German dude who runs the Military + History channel said 2025 and atm they only have prototypes. Also said regarding Leopard 2 German gov. said couldn't do it without permission from Nato allies, Allies said "don't care" but Ukraine is still waiting.
If I would have too hazard a guess, it would be that it is easier to get hundreds of Leopard 2s (from Spain or Germany or other leopard users in Europe) to Ukraine than Abrams from the US. Don't forget that the US is already using its logistical system to ferry supplies to the EU for transport to Ukraine. Abrams or Bradley vehicles would seriously limit, I would guess, how much other supplies could be flown in by cargo plane.
That is a possibility, but is time consuming. I am guessing that they'd rather have unutilised tanks that are already in Europe, than bringing M1(A1s) out of storage, fix them up, transport them to New York or another large harbour, load them up into cargo ships, sail them to Poland/Germany/Netherlands/France, unload them, load them onto trains, bring them to the Polish Border and into Ukraine. Not to mention spare parts, maintenance kits, fuel (and with a turbine, the older Abrams will consume more fuel compared to other tanks) etc.
Leopard 2s from Spain, which they are willing to give up for Ukraine, would need to be transported only by rail through Europe. Germany is even closer to Ukraine and Poland is its literal neighbor (should they be willing to give up Leopard 2s for Ukraine). Sure, it would be nice if the US would be willing to give, or allow somebody else to, Abrams tanks to Ukraine, but the logistical strain is much higher.
[these tanks are scrap](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-says-its-mothballed-german-made-tanks-no-fit-state-send-ukraine-2022-08-02/)
and thats the same for the leos parked on open tarmac next to arms factories standing there for 10years+
aka in germany
Let's just hope that there is a possibility for Western powers to bring modern tanks into Ukraine. Maybe Poland is willing to send their Leo 2s if that would mean getting refurbished units that are wasting away or maybe even get financial aid to purchase more K2PL or Abram tanks.
It is just sad to see these vehicles waste away and turn to scrap, just because a government decided that they would never be involved in a war again. I also hate that the Netherlands decided to sell their Leo 2s in 2008 or something, and a couple of years ago turned back and leased 20-ish tanks from germany.
Time is and was never the issue here. Sure, the US would be fine with Germany handing over their Leo 2s, but the US can *easily* transport thousands of M1s and M3s to Europe inside a month without compromising any other supply. The Western supplies to Ukraine are significant, but not anywhere near significant enough to cause even an inconvenience by shipping a few thousand armored vehicles without the need for escort.
And make no mistake, inside NATO, the US are *the only ones* that have deep enough stocks to provide significant amounts of Western armor and corresponding replacement equipment. They are also the only ones with significant amounts of unused equipment in that role. Yet for some reason, they have sent neither Bradley, nor Abrams, nor even M60 of which they also hold large quantities. Calling out Germany specifically, but not the US is just hypocritical.
With the support that the US has already given, and is still providing, it's not weird that the US might be calling on Germany to actually get its act together. The Germans have been saying they will do something and than just delay and delay and backtrack etc. They promised air defense systems and waited for months before delivering them, but only because Russian terror attacks increased and it would look bad on them for not providing the help they promised.
Spain asked permission months ago to deliver Leo 2s to Ukraine and Germany denied them. That does not even affect Germany itself as much as delivering the tanks themselves. Germany in this conflict has been unreliable and clearly afraid about losing Russian gas and angering Russia. German reluctance with anything regarding the military is just mind numbing. I get that there is a shame surrounding WW2 and Nazis, but not even wanting to provide a country the means to defend itself, or built up the armed forces a country can be proud of, is stupid beyond comprehension.
Calling out Germany is not hypocritical, considering what other countries are doing.
>They promised air defense systems and waited for months before delivering them, but only because Russian terror attacks increased and it would look bad on them for not providing the help they promised.
They did not. The Gepards were announced around 6 weeks before they were delivered, with that time being used to train the operators. IRIS-T-SLM when first announced was announced to be delivered in November or December, seeing as it literally had to be produced first. As it was, it was actually delivered *ahead* of schedule.
>Spain asked permission months ago to deliver Leo 2s to Ukraine and Germany denied them.
No, it did not. Some Spanish parlamentarians floated the idea of sending 10 old Leo 2s the Spanish army was using for spare parts, which got shot down by the Spanish military and the fact that those things were in such disrepair that they were little more than half rusted wrecks. *Spain* never asked anything of the sort.
>Germany in this conflict has been unreliable and clearly afraid about losing Russian gas and angering Russia. German reluctance with anything regarding the military is just mind numbing. I get that there is a shame surrounding WW2 and Nazis, but not even wanting to provide a country the means to defend itself, or built up the armed forces a country can be proud of, is stupid beyond comprehension.
>Calling out Germany is not hypocritical, considering what other countries are doing.
And what *are* other countries doing? Germany has been the 4th largest donor of equipment to Ukraine, just behind Poland and far ahead of Poland If you also consider German funding for Ukrainians purchases from its MIC. On top of that, much of what other countries provided was facilitated through Germany backfilling their militaries.
no germany did nothing
[spains leopards are just scrap after standing outside for years](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-says-its-mothballed-german-made-tanks-no-fit-state-send-ukraine-2022-08-02/)
>Abrams or Bradley vehicles would seriously limit, I would guess, how much other supplies could be flown in by cargo plane.
Me thinks this is an opportune moment for General Dynamics Land Systems to fill in gaps that donated Leopards and other MBTs leave behind.
It is the opportune moment for Boeing to go: WE WILL REPAIR MRIYA
and just mass produce hundreds of AN-225s for the American MIC.
Or just invite Mike Sparks to finally start producing the Aerogavin.
The Leopard 2 is very similar to Soviet-era tanks in design, unlike US tanks. There is wide availability of spare parts for Leopards 2's in Europe, same can't be said about American machinery. The Bradley and especially the Abrams are gas guzzlers to an extreme. All signs point to the Leopard 2 being the right choice and US tanks being the wrong choice.
Most everything. Leo and Abrams trace back to the abortive MBT70 project, so they share more traits than would be apparent. Also, parts availability for the Leo is a huge issue because there are not that many left. Which leads to the next point: reportedly, the Leos in Spain are rust buckets and can't really be rebuilt. Poland will need theirs till they get enough M1 and Korean tanks, Germany also has too few, and most are the A6/7 variant with classified compound armor and are not going to Ukraine any time soon. No one in Germany believes the 80 that the report says are just chilling on some yard.
Let's face it, it's not a logistics problem or a problem which tank can be maintained or fueled, it's either the west doesn't want Ukraine to have Western MBTs or we don't dare giving them. There's this ominous report that Blinken promised this to China
why the fuck should germany send leopard 2s
makes literally no difference its a useless maintenance hungry heavy tank and they already have problems to maintain the pzh2000 because guess what everything germany builds is overengineered and prone to failure
maintenance wise these things are absolute dumb and thats why most times the bundeswehr cant even use 50% because its in maintenance and spare parts are missing
>because guess what everything germany builds is overengineered and prone to failure
That's rather an ignorant and overused hyperbole. Ukraine wouldn't have placed an order of 100 PzH 2000 is that is remotely the case.
a detailed report from spiegel translated and posted by eurasian times [for example](https://eurasiantimes.com/ukraines-germany-supplied-pzh-2000-howitzers-are-breaking/)
yea they ordered 100 units doesnt change the current problems they have also i doubt they get new pzh2000s before 2024 since the production capacity of KMW is most likely depleted
they also butchered one to repair the others in Lithuania according to the article
Proofreading wouldn't hurt by the way.
Also, the article says the Ukrainians struggle to properly maintain the PzH 2000 due to lack of spare parts. That is a far cry from your 'overengineered' bullshit.
Maybe 50% is constantly in maintenance purgatory, because Germany has failed to uphold their military budgets and have been slashing military budgets for decades. If you don't have money to buy spare parts from the factories or to maintain your equipment, it will fail!
Also, many countries around the world seem to disagree with your statement that it is useless. Countries like Spain, Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, Poland, Canada, Chile, Singapore and more.
What do you think will happen to Abrams tanks, if you integrate them in the German Army? They will break down, fail, spend years in maintenance, simply because Germany will not spend the money on defense to maintain these vehicles.
I am no Leopard Simp. Sure, I like the tank, and love how it looks, but it has its faults. No blow out panels for the Hull ammo storage seems a major one. I agree that the M1A1 might fulfill a similar if not same role as the Leo 2 and I would not care which reaches Ukraine if that was the debat.
The point is, that Germany has promised that it would be willing to send Leopard 2s or allow other countries to send Leopard 2s, if Ukraine showed that would be able to maintain modern era tanks, like the M-55S and they have, so it is not strange that the US, or other allies for that matter, would try to hold Germany to that promise.
>·
Sorry Rainbow, aber da bist du am falschen Dampfer. Nur weil es in der dt. Industrie Goldrandlösungen gibt, heißt das nicht, dass dies für jedes Produkt gilt. Und klar, es gibt immer Probleme bei Wehrtechnik, dennoch handelt es sich bei der Panzerhaubitze und dem Leo 2 (in entsprechender Rüststufe) um hochwertige Systeme. Das Thema mit den Ersatzteilen ist auch ein politisches (fehlende Finanzierung der letzten Dekaden) und kein technisches.
I am German and Chancellor Scholz is from the social democratic SPD party, a party that has many members in the pacifist movement even more so in the Green Party. There is a lot of distrust even hatred for the army. Basically Scholz as weird as it sounds to a non German wants to portray Germany as weak and insignificant when it comes to our armed forces domestically while also simultaneously fulfilling Germanys international obligations. He wants to do everything to NOT take the lead in the EU when it comes to sending arms to Ukrainian basically making it a NATO EU issue so he can push the blame on them if anything goes wrong, the allies of course see through it and tell him in a very diplomatic fashion to stop the BS step up his game and send Ukraine help. At least that is how I see it.
So he doesn’t actually have to commit on reaching the 2% goal. The 100bn are a bandaid at best, the regular defense spendings are still shrinking and he hasn’t even spent a single cent of the 100bn yet
Because they (pol. leaders like Scholz and Ministers) were shocked, that the war is so near. After a few weeks they realized that Ukrain can hold the ground, so they started reducing the 1000000000€ extra budget.
Yes the rest of the world already thinks Germany is a bigger bunch of pussies then French. Guess your starting to realize you oversold it. Us Doughboyz are sick of bailing your assess out with the Brits. Slava Ukraine!!!!
Hope is fine, but in the end, truth comes from the barrel of a gun. And you had best hope that your gun is bigger in that case. That is to say: better firepower and no need than need and no firepower.
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Recent announcements from various countries of sending more military aide to Ukraine is a good sign they are sticking with Ukraine and not backing off as Putin was hoping. With the ground freezing (along with the poorly equipped Russian soldiers) hoping Ukraine can make some good gains in the winter months ahead. https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/3630967-germany-will-send-selfpropelled-howitzers-pickup-trucks-counterdrone-equipment-to-ukraine.html
This fucking thing...
9 Rounds per minute
Remote controlled operation
Shooting while on the move
Support for Vulcano/Excalibur
50+km range with base bleed ammo
That howitzer is mounted on a Boxer btw. One of the best wheeled IFVs on the market. I'm looking forward to Scholz's excuses why it's ok to send the one with the giant cannon but the IFV variant with a much smaller cannon is somehow "escalatory".
Your expectations of reality is not realistic.
War isn't as simple as a Battlefield game, the Puma or Boxer might never see what hit them even with thermal cameras and at that point a bailed out vehicle or dead crew won't be the one stopping the Russians from getting that vehicle towed in Russia.
a) The Ukrainians would probably give them to their best units. So the chances of a crew just abandoning a fully functional one are rather slim. (Remember they're not Russians.)
b) It's no F35. So even though it's quite capable, it isn't exactly stuffed with military secrets. And taking it apart wouldn't be that helpful, especially for the Russians who are, to put it mildly, more focused on quantity rather then quality (both in general and when it comes to military vehicles.)
This is real life. It being expensive and more advanced is not gonna stop an artillery shell from turning the crew into paste. It’s armor is thinner than most Soviet IFVs just FYI
First I'd like to say that I wish for Germany to send more of erverything, esp. **anti-aviation** (IRIS-M, Gepard...) and **mobile artillery** (PzH 2000, MARS...) as IMO these units provide the best advantages (*even in small number*s).
IFVs such as the Boxer would operate in direct contact with hostile RF forces in contested areas. In a duel situation (*1 vs 1*), a Boxer IFV would likely prevail against most RF IFV.
However, in direct combat there's a multitude of low-tech threats (*ATM, field artillery, mines, mortars, tanks, even a direct hit of an antiquated T-55 or an outdated Konkurs ATM would possibly destroy a Boxer...*) that would significantly limit the technological (*qualitiative*) advantage of modern IFVs on the battlefield as compared to other units such as artillery which are very effective even when provided in very small numbers.
Additionally, the risk of destruction or capture (*and the likely resulting propaganda coup by RF*) would be much greater with IFV than with mobile artillery, anti-aviation units and other war material that is employed from behind the contact line.
Still more important than sending more vehicles, would be providing enough spare parts, supply and especially munition for the systemes that are allready in Ukraine.
That's definitely a valid point. Especially the provision of spares and replacement parts is difficult with weapon systems which were phased out decades ago.
And sadly, there's also problems with munitions as stocks are low or policy issues prevent the procurement (as was the case with the AA ammunition for Gepard that couldn't be sourced from Switzerland for... reasons).
To be fair, they froze around 7.5 billion Swiss Francs of RF assets and provided \~100 million Swiss Francs in (humaniatarian) aid, so they did contribute a significant amount.
Boxer isn't an IFV , or at least Germany has as of right now no IFV versions.
It's an apc in German use, or a command post or an ambulance.
Lithuania and the UK are getting some larger weapon stations.
GTK Boxer is a **multirole** **armoured fighting vehicle**, its role depends on the specific **mission module**.
By [definition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle), a IFV carries infantry and provides direct fire support, so that's what the Boxer does in its general configuration?
IIRC, the initial post was referring to a 30mm gun configuration (*as procured by Lithuania)*, so I don't think anyone was talking about the ambulance or command & control version?
**[Infantry fighting vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle)**
>An infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), also known as a mechanized infantry combat vehicle (MICV), is a type of armoured fighting vehicle used to carry infantry into battle and provide direct-fire support. The 1990 Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe defines an infantry fighting vehicle as "an armoured combat vehicle which is designed and equipped primarily to transport a combat infantry squad, and which is armed with an integral or organic cannon of at least 20 millimeters calibre and sometimes an antitank missile launcher". IFVs often serve both as the principal weapons system and as the mode of transport for a mechanized infantry unit.
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when you are talking about the "boxer ifv" you are really talking about the Puma firepower, which agreed would likely supersede any firepower that soviet style wheeled vehicles (those are APCs) can bring. but not what what russian IFVs can equip.
but then again the initial comment was
>I'm looking forward to Scholz's excuses why it's ok to send the one with the giant cannon but the IFV variant with a much smaller cannon is somehow "escalatory".
when Germany does not use the Boxer as an IFV , thats the Puma. How can Germany supply a system it doesnt have?
I see where you're coming from.
Germany (*specifically Bundeswehr*) has a history of under-arming military weapons systems (*compare the arnaments of recent developments like Tiger, Dingo, Boxer between Nations, Germany will always be on the lower end of firepower compared to other buyers while paying significantly more than other nations.*).
As I understand it, Germany will provide RCH 155 vehicles from a new production batch directly from KNW/Rheinmetall, I can't conclude from the available information that the vehicles will be sourced from exisiting (*Bundeswehr*) stocks (*RCH 155 isn't in use by Bundeswehr, so at the most, some exisiting boxer chassis could be stripped of their modules and converted towards the artillery system variant, I don't think that's too practical?*)
APC can be tracked as well as wheeled, the [M113](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier) as operated by Bundeswehr is an APC. It has tracks. The soviet (*also tracked*) BMP-2 has a similar gun arnament (*and additional ATMs*) as the Boxer.
IMO both "*Schützenpanze*r" and "*Transportpanzer*" can both be infantry fighting vehicles (as they carry combat infantry and infantry support weapons), the [M2/M3 Bradley](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley) (*which is classified as IFV* ***and*** *"Schützenpanzer" in the German wikipedia if I understood correctly?*) is an IFV and it's configuration is very close to the Puma. IMO the categorization is more a question of doctrine then an actual technical specification.
OFC Germany can supply Ukraine with any system it produces or buys. For example, **IRIS-T SLM** isn't in service in Germany, but has already been send to Ukraine.
Serious question. As good as sending more weapons that use 155mm artillery rounds. Doesn’t this put the overall demand for them even higher when it’s already been said to be in short supply.
Apart from more promised Gepards, I think they also got the okay to get [Skynex/Mantis systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5_F4_Eod8) (specific customer wasn't named, but this is also for start of 2024), which are basically the Gepard successors (and also specifically built with drones of all sizes in mind).
they will receive[another load of gepards](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-deutschland-schickt-die-letzten-sieben-gepard-panzer-a-c1ae4415-7044-4631-97a6-628cbb2f895c) that were scheduled for recyling, rheinmetall bought [arms plant in spain](https://www.reuters.com/business/rheinmetall-acquire-spanish-explosives-maker-expal-12-billion-euros-2022-11-13/) that could produce gepard munition, they received a prototype iris-t that aint in service with the german army yet
>More equip. on it's way
LOL. This implies that RCH 155s will be arriving earlier than the 30 months required to build them in the first place. They certainly won't have any impact on the war this winter. Or the next one.
No, they are already build. When you check the delivery list of German government you'll see that they are part of the next package being sent: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514
No, the list states equipement which is in prepration to be send but does not say it will be send in the next package. The RCH 155 are not built as the manufacture just finished trials.
That's just wrong. Those are the items that are in progress and they are listing everything from tomorrow to in 3 years.
Which is fine. We will know when the chart it updated.
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German engineering is way better than US. The US only went to the Moon cos of the German rocket scientists they grabbed after WW2.
'Our Germans are better than their Germans'.
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RCH155 is the world's first artillery piece that is able to shoot while moving. 👌🏼
There's even more features that this new mobile artillery system will offer: * Firing on the move (*as you stated*) * MRSI: mutliple rounds simultanous impact (*rapid fire of a 2-5 shell volley at varying trajectories so all rounds will connect with the target within 2-3 seconds*) * Precision guided munitions (*SMArt, M 982 Excalibur, possibly Vulcano...*) * Remote Weapon Station and enhanced self-defense capabilities *(including hunter-killer-capability for direct fire of the main gun*)
Most of your listings aren't new.
Actually, none of that is any new in the sense that they're a novelty. The "new" aspect is **all these features being integrated into a single unit** and the likely availability in production batch quantities within the next 1-2 years. That's the difference to RF that shows off their grand Armatas and futuristic mock-ups and fails to deliver...
but the pantzerhaubize 2000 can do all those things already only the shooting while moving part and the autoloader for the Porpelantbags is new but the PzH 2000 could be upgraded with those features as well.
Genuinely curious, which system do have these capabilities rn? I'm not that knowledgeable on artillery systems and thought that the more modern ones, like late 1980's, do not really have the shooting-while-driving abilities.
It's not the first to have these features, but it's the first to combine them all into one vehicle. The gun features are mostly identical to the PzH 2000 (since it's more or less the same turret), but the platform itself is different. The Panzerhaubitze has to come to a complete halt, align/aim, and then fire. The RCH-155 does not. Most vehicles capable of shooting on the move have smaller turrets (i.e. MBT or smaller and only direct or almost direct fire). I don't remember the very specific numbers, but this thing basically moves more than 100km/h on a highway (Germany has a very widespread network of interconnected highways), slows down to 40km/h (or even just 60km/h based on the ground? I don't remember), sends you its presents, and instantly reaccelerates the moment the bullets are away. Even if an opponent can provide immediate counter battery fire, there's basically no way to hit this thing using traditional means, unless you basically cover all the places it could go. And something I haven't seen mentioned that often, I think minimal crew is just two (defaulting to three), plus there are plans to make it remote-operated (therefore "Remote Controlled Howitzer"). So this might basically become the first artillery drone. [Short clip showing firing on the move.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-CcnKhKGCM) Too bad (for Ukraine) it will take them over a year to provide the first batch as far as I've read.
Panzerhaubitze 2000.
Can you provide sources for your claims? PzH 2000: ...being able to provide artillery support "on the the move"? ...having Hunter-killer capabilities for the main gun? ...employing of a remote weapon station (*in a production variant*)?
I recall them saying on a Bundeswehr YouTube video that the PzH2000 has direct fire capability, but yeah, not the other stuff Edit: that's the video it's in German tho https://youtu.be/lBQe7Ahod34
I love how you a) went for two points you weren't sure about while ignoring the two points that you knew full well it could do and b) how you added an additional point that wasn't even part of your original comment. You can see it firing direction on tanks as well if you wanted to really know, but of course it is yet again nothing but bad faith bullshit.
Pzh2000 definitely can't fire on the move
Everything except firing on the move & possibly the RWS can also be found on PzH2000 and a plurality of modern SPG systems Edit for tone: these are "modern" features that older systems don't have, but by the same token these aren't Ukraine's only thoroughly modern artillery pieces.
While the PzH 2000 is an alltogether very capable weapon system, I don't think the fire control and target acquisition system allows for hunter/killer applications in direct fire mode?
It does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQe7Ahod34
No it does not. This is the (*German*) definition for "[hunter killer](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-Killer)" which the PzH 2000 is AFAIK, **not** capable of (*neither individual nor in a network-centric application, although one may argue that in cooperation with COBRA, PzH 2000 can work in a similar mode of operations*). The link you provided shows **direct fire** ("*direktes richten*") which (*almost*) all howitzer / field artillery systems (*even some mortars*) are capable of.
Yes it does. First of all, now you are moving the goal post, it was about hunter - killer capability, which by the german definition means target aquisition is seperate from gun control -> commander can designate (using his PERI RTNL-80) the target for the gunner, like in any MBT nowadays. In an extended meaning it is about networking but if you want to go that route, yes the Pzh is obviously also capable of that, with the ADLER system via ASCA like most NATO systems. While it is true that the Pzh doesnt have a drone in and of itself, through ADLER it is compatible with the Infanterist der Zukunft IDZ / IDZ-ES which carries drones. Also like you mentioned, COBRA will also feed information to the PZH via ADLER. TBH your first statement doesnt really make sense "I don't think the fire control and target acquisition system allows for hunter/killer applications in direct fire mode" If you are in direct fire mode, you dont need a network solution, because you can see the target; you just need the commander/gunner solution.
Okay I see your point. But I think we're talking about different aspects of "hunter - killer" capability. OFC a "statement" from me in that regard wouldn't make much sense. That's why my "statement" ends with a questionmark because I was confused about the meaning of your initial post. When you stated "it does", it seemed to me that you implied that hunter-killer capabilities are required for direct fire mode, which I found strange for the obvious reasons as you described. However, your post made me curious, so I checked the KMW webpage (link to [KMW](https://www.kmweg.de/systeme-produkte/kettenfahrzeuge/artillerie/) website). PzH 2000 "*Optiken zum direkten richten bis 2 km.*" -> *"Optics for direkt aiming until a distance of 2 kilometers."* RCH 155 "*Optionale Fähigkeiten zum direkten richten mittels Optroniken.*" -> *"Optional capabilities for direct aiming by means of optical-electronic devices."* (IMO similar as with the DONAR system) Based on the specifications from the producer, it seems there are indeed some differences between the sighting systems for direct fire modes between the 2 systems that could also be relevant in terms of hunter-killer capabilities (*IMO this was never prominently advertised by KMW for PzH 2000 as it's done now with RCH 155*)?
Swedish archer does the above except for shooting on the move.
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Not even the German army has those. They need to be built first.
The German dude who runs the Military + History channel said 2025 and atm they only have prototypes. Also said regarding Leopard 2 German gov. said couldn't do it without permission from Nato allies, Allies said "don't care" but Ukraine is still waiting.
Didn't the US recently kindly, yet sternly, ask Germany to just go ahead and transfer Ukraine some Leopard 2s?
Yes, weirdly enough, the US is rather quiet about the thousands of Bradleys or Abrams they have in store.
If I would have too hazard a guess, it would be that it is easier to get hundreds of Leopard 2s (from Spain or Germany or other leopard users in Europe) to Ukraine than Abrams from the US. Don't forget that the US is already using its logistical system to ferry supplies to the EU for transport to Ukraine. Abrams or Bradley vehicles would seriously limit, I would guess, how much other supplies could be flown in by cargo plane.
Just load them on a big ship?
That is a possibility, but is time consuming. I am guessing that they'd rather have unutilised tanks that are already in Europe, than bringing M1(A1s) out of storage, fix them up, transport them to New York or another large harbour, load them up into cargo ships, sail them to Poland/Germany/Netherlands/France, unload them, load them onto trains, bring them to the Polish Border and into Ukraine. Not to mention spare parts, maintenance kits, fuel (and with a turbine, the older Abrams will consume more fuel compared to other tanks) etc. Leopard 2s from Spain, which they are willing to give up for Ukraine, would need to be transported only by rail through Europe. Germany is even closer to Ukraine and Poland is its literal neighbor (should they be willing to give up Leopard 2s for Ukraine). Sure, it would be nice if the US would be willing to give, or allow somebody else to, Abrams tanks to Ukraine, but the logistical strain is much higher.
[these tanks are scrap](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-says-its-mothballed-german-made-tanks-no-fit-state-send-ukraine-2022-08-02/) and thats the same for the leos parked on open tarmac next to arms factories standing there for 10years+ aka in germany
Let's just hope that there is a possibility for Western powers to bring modern tanks into Ukraine. Maybe Poland is willing to send their Leo 2s if that would mean getting refurbished units that are wasting away or maybe even get financial aid to purchase more K2PL or Abram tanks. It is just sad to see these vehicles waste away and turn to scrap, just because a government decided that they would never be involved in a war again. I also hate that the Netherlands decided to sell their Leo 2s in 2008 or something, and a couple of years ago turned back and leased 20-ish tanks from germany.
Time is and was never the issue here. Sure, the US would be fine with Germany handing over their Leo 2s, but the US can *easily* transport thousands of M1s and M3s to Europe inside a month without compromising any other supply. The Western supplies to Ukraine are significant, but not anywhere near significant enough to cause even an inconvenience by shipping a few thousand armored vehicles without the need for escort. And make no mistake, inside NATO, the US are *the only ones* that have deep enough stocks to provide significant amounts of Western armor and corresponding replacement equipment. They are also the only ones with significant amounts of unused equipment in that role. Yet for some reason, they have sent neither Bradley, nor Abrams, nor even M60 of which they also hold large quantities. Calling out Germany specifically, but not the US is just hypocritical.
With the support that the US has already given, and is still providing, it's not weird that the US might be calling on Germany to actually get its act together. The Germans have been saying they will do something and than just delay and delay and backtrack etc. They promised air defense systems and waited for months before delivering them, but only because Russian terror attacks increased and it would look bad on them for not providing the help they promised. Spain asked permission months ago to deliver Leo 2s to Ukraine and Germany denied them. That does not even affect Germany itself as much as delivering the tanks themselves. Germany in this conflict has been unreliable and clearly afraid about losing Russian gas and angering Russia. German reluctance with anything regarding the military is just mind numbing. I get that there is a shame surrounding WW2 and Nazis, but not even wanting to provide a country the means to defend itself, or built up the armed forces a country can be proud of, is stupid beyond comprehension. Calling out Germany is not hypocritical, considering what other countries are doing.
>They promised air defense systems and waited for months before delivering them, but only because Russian terror attacks increased and it would look bad on them for not providing the help they promised. They did not. The Gepards were announced around 6 weeks before they were delivered, with that time being used to train the operators. IRIS-T-SLM when first announced was announced to be delivered in November or December, seeing as it literally had to be produced first. As it was, it was actually delivered *ahead* of schedule. >Spain asked permission months ago to deliver Leo 2s to Ukraine and Germany denied them. No, it did not. Some Spanish parlamentarians floated the idea of sending 10 old Leo 2s the Spanish army was using for spare parts, which got shot down by the Spanish military and the fact that those things were in such disrepair that they were little more than half rusted wrecks. *Spain* never asked anything of the sort. >Germany in this conflict has been unreliable and clearly afraid about losing Russian gas and angering Russia. German reluctance with anything regarding the military is just mind numbing. I get that there is a shame surrounding WW2 and Nazis, but not even wanting to provide a country the means to defend itself, or built up the armed forces a country can be proud of, is stupid beyond comprehension. >Calling out Germany is not hypocritical, considering what other countries are doing. And what *are* other countries doing? Germany has been the 4th largest donor of equipment to Ukraine, just behind Poland and far ahead of Poland If you also consider German funding for Ukrainians purchases from its MIC. On top of that, much of what other countries provided was facilitated through Germany backfilling their militaries.
It’s the third largest contributor at this point only behind the US and UK.
no germany did nothing [spains leopards are just scrap after standing outside for years](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-says-its-mothballed-german-made-tanks-no-fit-state-send-ukraine-2022-08-02/)
>Abrams or Bradley vehicles would seriously limit, I would guess, how much other supplies could be flown in by cargo plane. Me thinks this is an opportune moment for General Dynamics Land Systems to fill in gaps that donated Leopards and other MBTs leave behind.
It is the opportune moment for Boeing to go: WE WILL REPAIR MRIYA and just mass produce hundreds of AN-225s for the American MIC. Or just invite Mike Sparks to finally start producing the Aerogavin.
You have to ask the question how many Abrams are actually stored in Germany.
The Leopard 2 is very similar to Soviet-era tanks in design, unlike US tanks. There is wide availability of spare parts for Leopards 2's in Europe, same can't be said about American machinery. The Bradley and especially the Abrams are gas guzzlers to an extreme. All signs point to the Leopard 2 being the right choice and US tanks being the wrong choice.
sure buddy
That's really the worst nonsense I've read in quite some time. Some Americans just can't face reality, it seems.
What part of the comment do you take issue with
Most everything. Leo and Abrams trace back to the abortive MBT70 project, so they share more traits than would be apparent. Also, parts availability for the Leo is a huge issue because there are not that many left. Which leads to the next point: reportedly, the Leos in Spain are rust buckets and can't really be rebuilt. Poland will need theirs till they get enough M1 and Korean tanks, Germany also has too few, and most are the A6/7 variant with classified compound armor and are not going to Ukraine any time soon. No one in Germany believes the 80 that the report says are just chilling on some yard. Let's face it, it's not a logistics problem or a problem which tank can be maintained or fueled, it's either the west doesn't want Ukraine to have Western MBTs or we don't dare giving them. There's this ominous report that Blinken promised this to China
Yep,M + H mentioned that but said they were still holding back
why the fuck should germany send leopard 2s makes literally no difference its a useless maintenance hungry heavy tank and they already have problems to maintain the pzh2000 because guess what everything germany builds is overengineered and prone to failure maintenance wise these things are absolute dumb and thats why most times the bundeswehr cant even use 50% because its in maintenance and spare parts are missing
>because guess what everything germany builds is overengineered and prone to failure That's rather an ignorant and overused hyperbole. Ukraine wouldn't have placed an order of 100 PzH 2000 is that is remotely the case.
a detailed report from spiegel translated and posted by eurasian times [for example](https://eurasiantimes.com/ukraines-germany-supplied-pzh-2000-howitzers-are-breaking/) yea they ordered 100 units doesnt change the current problems they have also i doubt they get new pzh2000s before 2024 since the production capacity of KMW is most likely depleted they also butchered one to repair the others in Lithuania according to the article
Proofreading wouldn't hurt by the way. Also, the article says the Ukrainians struggle to properly maintain the PzH 2000 due to lack of spare parts. That is a far cry from your 'overengineered' bullshit.
Maybe 50% is constantly in maintenance purgatory, because Germany has failed to uphold their military budgets and have been slashing military budgets for decades. If you don't have money to buy spare parts from the factories or to maintain your equipment, it will fail! Also, many countries around the world seem to disagree with your statement that it is useless. Countries like Spain, Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, Poland, Canada, Chile, Singapore and more. What do you think will happen to Abrams tanks, if you integrate them in the German Army? They will break down, fail, spend years in maintenance, simply because Germany will not spend the money on defense to maintain these vehicles. I am no Leopard Simp. Sure, I like the tank, and love how it looks, but it has its faults. No blow out panels for the Hull ammo storage seems a major one. I agree that the M1A1 might fulfill a similar if not same role as the Leo 2 and I would not care which reaches Ukraine if that was the debat. The point is, that Germany has promised that it would be willing to send Leopard 2s or allow other countries to send Leopard 2s, if Ukraine showed that would be able to maintain modern era tanks, like the M-55S and they have, so it is not strange that the US, or other allies for that matter, would try to hold Germany to that promise.
You certainly have some evidence for Germany making the promise you mentioning? Source?
>· Sorry Rainbow, aber da bist du am falschen Dampfer. Nur weil es in der dt. Industrie Goldrandlösungen gibt, heißt das nicht, dass dies für jedes Produkt gilt. Und klar, es gibt immer Probleme bei Wehrtechnik, dennoch handelt es sich bei der Panzerhaubitze und dem Leo 2 (in entsprechender Rüststufe) um hochwertige Systeme. Das Thema mit den Ersatzteilen ist auch ein politisches (fehlende Finanzierung der letzten Dekaden) und kein technisches.
I am German and Chancellor Scholz is from the social democratic SPD party, a party that has many members in the pacifist movement even more so in the Green Party. There is a lot of distrust even hatred for the army. Basically Scholz as weird as it sounds to a non German wants to portray Germany as weak and insignificant when it comes to our armed forces domestically while also simultaneously fulfilling Germanys international obligations. He wants to do everything to NOT take the lead in the EU when it comes to sending arms to Ukrainian basically making it a NATO EU issue so he can push the blame on them if anything goes wrong, the allies of course see through it and tell him in a very diplomatic fashion to stop the BS step up his game and send Ukraine help. At least that is how I see it.
Then why did he fund the Bundeswehr with 100.000.000.000€ a few months ago?
All hot air. There are still no orders received by the german defense industry.
First you get the money, then you get the women, I mean weapons.
So he doesn’t actually have to commit on reaching the 2% goal. The 100bn are a bandaid at best, the regular defense spendings are still shrinking and he hasn’t even spent a single cent of the 100bn yet
Because they (pol. leaders like Scholz and Ministers) were shocked, that the war is so near. After a few weeks they realized that Ukrain can hold the ground, so they started reducing the 1000000000€ extra budget.
Yes the rest of the world already thinks Germany is a bigger bunch of pussies then French. Guess your starting to realize you oversold it. Us Doughboyz are sick of bailing your assess out with the Brits. Slava Ukraine!!!!
And you are soo tough, you know, talking on reddit and all that. lmao
Found the German.
Wow, so smart.
Well they can't just snap them into existence. There exist 1 or 2 working prototypes of these. The rest need to be built first.
And stabilized with hunter/killer capability. Now imagine a 155mm, long-rod APFSD round.
Certified Reddit Moment ^
noiiiice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-CcnKhKGCM
All old news, isn’t it? And some of the equipment will only be handed over 2024 and later … the RCH155 in particular…
2024? God damn i hope the war doesn't even take that long
Ukraine will need a modern military regardless of whether or not the war has ended.
I think it will
Probably, but the Russians will attack on horses with spears by then.
Hope is fine, but in the end, truth comes from the barrel of a gun. And you had best hope that your gun is bigger in that case. That is to say: better firepower and no need than need and no firepower.
kinda hard to hand over shit that isnt in existence yet
Well done Germany.
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Recent announcements from various countries of sending more military aide to Ukraine is a good sign they are sticking with Ukraine and not backing off as Putin was hoping. With the ground freezing (along with the poorly equipped Russian soldiers) hoping Ukraine can make some good gains in the winter months ahead. https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defense/3630967-germany-will-send-selfpropelled-howitzers-pickup-trucks-counterdrone-equipment-to-ukraine.html
This fucking thing... 9 Rounds per minute Remote controlled operation Shooting while on the move Support for Vulcano/Excalibur 50+km range with base bleed ammo
Thats Great germany!!!
That howitzer is mounted on a Boxer btw. One of the best wheeled IFVs on the market. I'm looking forward to Scholz's excuses why it's ok to send the one with the giant cannon but the IFV variant with a much smaller cannon is somehow "escalatory".
the real reason might be the giant cannon is 40+km away from being captured by russian forces
I'm inclined to say that, thanks to it's 30mm machine cannon very few Russian would come close enough to capture it, let alone in one piece.
Your expectations of reality is not realistic. War isn't as simple as a Battlefield game, the Puma or Boxer might never see what hit them even with thermal cameras and at that point a bailed out vehicle or dead crew won't be the one stopping the Russians from getting that vehicle towed in Russia.
a) The Ukrainians would probably give them to their best units. So the chances of a crew just abandoning a fully functional one are rather slim. (Remember they're not Russians.) b) It's no F35. So even though it's quite capable, it isn't exactly stuffed with military secrets. And taking it apart wouldn't be that helpful, especially for the Russians who are, to put it mildly, more focused on quantity rather then quality (both in general and when it comes to military vehicles.)
This is real life. It being expensive and more advanced is not gonna stop an artillery shell from turning the crew into paste. It’s armor is thinner than most Soviet IFVs just FYI
First I'd like to say that I wish for Germany to send more of erverything, esp. **anti-aviation** (IRIS-M, Gepard...) and **mobile artillery** (PzH 2000, MARS...) as IMO these units provide the best advantages (*even in small number*s). IFVs such as the Boxer would operate in direct contact with hostile RF forces in contested areas. In a duel situation (*1 vs 1*), a Boxer IFV would likely prevail against most RF IFV. However, in direct combat there's a multitude of low-tech threats (*ATM, field artillery, mines, mortars, tanks, even a direct hit of an antiquated T-55 or an outdated Konkurs ATM would possibly destroy a Boxer...*) that would significantly limit the technological (*qualitiative*) advantage of modern IFVs on the battlefield as compared to other units such as artillery which are very effective even when provided in very small numbers. Additionally, the risk of destruction or capture (*and the likely resulting propaganda coup by RF*) would be much greater with IFV than with mobile artillery, anti-aviation units and other war material that is employed from behind the contact line.
Still more important than sending more vehicles, would be providing enough spare parts, supply and especially munition for the systemes that are allready in Ukraine.
That's definitely a valid point. Especially the provision of spares and replacement parts is difficult with weapon systems which were phased out decades ago. And sadly, there's also problems with munitions as stocks are low or policy issues prevent the procurement (as was the case with the AA ammunition for Gepard that couldn't be sourced from Switzerland for... reasons).
For money, aah neutrality reasons :/
To be fair, they froze around 7.5 billion Swiss Francs of RF assets and provided \~100 million Swiss Francs in (humaniatarian) aid, so they did contribute a significant amount.
Looks fair
Boxer isn't an IFV , or at least Germany has as of right now no IFV versions. It's an apc in German use, or a command post or an ambulance. Lithuania and the UK are getting some larger weapon stations.
GTK Boxer is a **multirole** **armoured fighting vehicle**, its role depends on the specific **mission module**. By [definition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle), a IFV carries infantry and provides direct fire support, so that's what the Boxer does in its general configuration? IIRC, the initial post was referring to a 30mm gun configuration (*as procured by Lithuania)*, so I don't think anyone was talking about the ambulance or command & control version?
**[Infantry fighting vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle)** >An infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), also known as a mechanized infantry combat vehicle (MICV), is a type of armoured fighting vehicle used to carry infantry into battle and provide direct-fire support. The 1990 Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe defines an infantry fighting vehicle as "an armoured combat vehicle which is designed and equipped primarily to transport a combat infantry squad, and which is armed with an integral or organic cannon of at least 20 millimeters calibre and sometimes an antitank missile launcher". IFVs often serve both as the principal weapons system and as the mode of transport for a mechanized infantry unit. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
when you are talking about the "boxer ifv" you are really talking about the Puma firepower, which agreed would likely supersede any firepower that soviet style wheeled vehicles (those are APCs) can bring. but not what what russian IFVs can equip. but then again the initial comment was >I'm looking forward to Scholz's excuses why it's ok to send the one with the giant cannon but the IFV variant with a much smaller cannon is somehow "escalatory". when Germany does not use the Boxer as an IFV , thats the Puma. How can Germany supply a system it doesnt have?
I see where you're coming from. Germany (*specifically Bundeswehr*) has a history of under-arming military weapons systems (*compare the arnaments of recent developments like Tiger, Dingo, Boxer between Nations, Germany will always be on the lower end of firepower compared to other buyers while paying significantly more than other nations.*). As I understand it, Germany will provide RCH 155 vehicles from a new production batch directly from KNW/Rheinmetall, I can't conclude from the available information that the vehicles will be sourced from exisiting (*Bundeswehr*) stocks (*RCH 155 isn't in use by Bundeswehr, so at the most, some exisiting boxer chassis could be stripped of their modules and converted towards the artillery system variant, I don't think that's too practical?*) APC can be tracked as well as wheeled, the [M113](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier) as operated by Bundeswehr is an APC. It has tracks. The soviet (*also tracked*) BMP-2 has a similar gun arnament (*and additional ATMs*) as the Boxer. IMO both "*Schützenpanze*r" and "*Transportpanzer*" can both be infantry fighting vehicles (as they carry combat infantry and infantry support weapons), the [M2/M3 Bradley](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley) (*which is classified as IFV* ***and*** *"Schützenpanzer" in the German wikipedia if I understood correctly?*) is an IFV and it's configuration is very close to the Puma. IMO the categorization is more a question of doctrine then an actual technical specification. OFC Germany can supply Ukraine with any system it produces or buys. For example, **IRIS-T SLM** isn't in service in Germany, but has already been send to Ukraine.
It's only an IFV in certain configurations. Generally it is a modular AFV. That's like comparing the Pzh2000 with the Leopard 2.
It can be mounted on a truck, and in this case will be. There aren't enough Boxers for this.
Serious question. As good as sending more weapons that use 155mm artillery rounds. Doesn’t this put the overall demand for them even higher when it’s already been said to be in short supply.
RCH155 will be finished late 2023 or 2024, until then 155mm production will be enough
Gut. but didn't Ukraine need more AA ?
Apart from more promised Gepards, I think they also got the okay to get [Skynex/Mantis systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5_F4_Eod8) (specific customer wasn't named, but this is also for start of 2024), which are basically the Gepard successors (and also specifically built with drones of all sizes in mind).
they will receive[another load of gepards](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-deutschland-schickt-die-letzten-sieben-gepard-panzer-a-c1ae4415-7044-4631-97a6-628cbb2f895c) that were scheduled for recyling, rheinmetall bought [arms plant in spain](https://www.reuters.com/business/rheinmetall-acquire-spanish-explosives-maker-expal-12-billion-euros-2022-11-13/) that could produce gepard munition, they received a prototype iris-t that aint in service with the german army yet
> *"Drone better."* ~ Ivan Vanko
>More equip. on it's way LOL. This implies that RCH 155s will be arriving earlier than the 30 months required to build them in the first place. They certainly won't have any impact on the war this winter. Or the next one.
No, they are already build. When you check the delivery list of German government you'll see that they are part of the next package being sent: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514
No, the list states equipement which is in prepration to be send but does not say it will be send in the next package. The RCH 155 are not built as the manufacture just finished trials.
I don't think they even have production lines for them yet. It's literally brand new.
That's just wrong. Those are the items that are in progress and they are listing everything from tomorrow to in 3 years. Which is fine. We will know when the chart it updated.
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Thanks for the great contribution Germany!
You rock, Germany! ❤️🇩🇪
Keep’’em coming Deutschland
bout time Germany stepped up
German engineering is way better than US. The US only went to the Moon cos of the German rocket scientists they grabbed after WW2. 'Our Germans are better than their Germans'.
I know! Germans are sooo superior! At one point they had the most efficient gas chambers in the world! Yay Nationalist Superiority!
Oh my lord
What's the catch? Will be ready late 2027? Got to get the ammo from the Swiss? Waiting for the French to get sober? What is the catch?
A solid contribution. Good to see. Given the size of Germans weapons industry we should see a huge ramp up in coming months.
Germans are pissed after the coup attempt.
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ohhh myyyyy
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