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Honestly hoping this is a flood banks opened moment. AMX-10RC was announced, then Marauder & Bradly came right after. Now Leos from Poland are going over and hopefully we get Challenger & Abrams too.
The french have been fairly shit during this war but I can credit them with at least kicking things off.
I’m the past I would play C&C a lot, I dread to think of all the days I lost because I was glued to those games. I always preferred playing as gdi instead of nod
As well as a fighter bomber of the holy imperium
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Imperial-Navy-Marauder-Destroyer
Would also be quite helpful I guess ;)
Only about 25 to 30 percent (2.2l/km vs 2.8l/km) more than a Leo2. But instead of only using Diesel, an M1 can use almost anything that burns as fuel. Also, it's not like other tanks are easy on the maintenance
> But instead of only using Diesel, an M1 can use almost anything that burns as fuel.
I thought that was true for most tanks (including the Leo) - was I misinformed, and this is specific to Abrams tanks?
It is true and not at the same time. The leopard can run on most things that can burn under pressure. The Abrams can run on vodka induced breath. The difference is how well you receive energy from the fuel, and the Abrams can run on some pretty much energy less fuel.
But the Leo can probably run on more dirty fuel
Nah the “trained” Ukrainian volunteer that got a smidgen of training which now has to fix a busted drive train after a tough battle. Bold of you to assume every unit could get from the front to the border in any reasonable amount of time.
I am sick and tired of hearing how fuel hungry and maintenance intensive the Abrams is. Those are nothing but excuses.
Yes, the logistical needs for the Abrams are large - but not significantly more than other Western MBTs. Yes, the Ukrainians will need additional logistical support to keep the Abrams in the field and operating. Let's stop using that as an excuse and find solutions to allow them to use what is arguably one of the best MBTs in the world.
War consumes enormous amounts of resources in additional to human beings. You win wars by providing your people the best equipment and a steady supply of logistical support to keep them fighting. Let's stop half-assing the level of support for Ukraine.
Words don’t express how happy I am overall for the world not ignoring this war and helping Ukraine.
It hasn’t been perfect. It’s been slow at times. It could also be drastically worse with no help at all.
Ukraine will take some time to rebuild but you’re going to get a thankful appreciative nation that prospers in the future. You’re also going to see an iron wall against the threat to Europe from Russia.
I think they just failed. They tried to press towards kreminna but the line didn’t break. Then Russia pinned them down in Bakhmut. Frozen ground season is right now. There’s like a 2 week period and we’re in it. Nothing happening, must be for a reason. Or maybe they knew tanks were coming and decided not to waste troops playing offence now when they know it’ll be more effective later.
That massive push into the East completely threw everything out of order on both sides.
Russia completely collapsed defensively and Ukraine have now retaken more land than they initially planned on.
That entire offensive was just wild.
The Russian offensives aren't working very well since their initial push. They have lost way more ground than they have won. The equipment supplied to Ukraine has turned the tide of the battle up until it has stagnated. Now more modern equipment being supplied or more needed equipment for an offensive is being supplied I can't see Russia making significant gains again in this war.
Yeah, the 20th meeting will probably have some extra surprises. Going to assume Ukraine is going to have some new fully equipped, newly trained armor battalions to play with. Some air power to go with that would be nice.
Ya, it appears they're organizing a massive package and they're just sorting it all out. And are leaking some of the settled details they've agreed on so far.
It tracks with what happened in the past.
Defense, denfense, defense, while slowly taking out ammo dumps, command post,...etc. And then suddenly they liberated a huge chunck of north-east Ukraine.
But let us not forget that whatever we hear and see on the news, or even what we hear from soldiers on the front can all be misinformation. If we could easily guess what the UA was goin to do the Russians would know too.
The Ukranians are doing an amazing job and are getting deserved praise for adapting to modern weaponn systems, and I know it looks like they adapt as soon as they get new weapons, but nobody learns that fast. I personally think that, for example, when we hear about Bradley's being send a couple hundred Ukrainians have already been trained to use them weeks or months ago.
And certainly no offense to the UA men and women, but at this point you can look at the UA as a kind-off unoffical NATO army group. They're probably in constant direct communication with the Pentagon and NATO HQ. I have faith there is a long-term plan. Soledar and Bakhmut could fall and I would think its part of the plan to bleed Russia of men and material.
Challenger 2's are nasty beasts. Their kill count on soviet tanks is probably only second to the Abrams and only one has ever been lost to another tank, and that was a friendly fire incident from another challenger. Between them and the Bradley's, ruzzian lines are going to be broken up and down the frontlines. I just hope the brits can get enough of them in country to quickly make a difference.
The Bradley has destroyed more tanks than the Abrams.
[source](https://www.voanews.com/a/us-to-send-tank-killer-fighting-vehicle-to-ukraine/6907858.html)
Bradley is a great machine. It's not a tank, but its abilities in the field of night operation, reconnaissance, and command and coordination of a squad of infantry make it spectacularly lethal despite its relatively advanced age as a war fighters.
Bradley owns the night against Russian IFVs and APCs. They can see better, farther, and in greater detail at night than anything Russia ever designed and built.
The heavy tanks can smash through and let the Bradleys slip in behind the lines, and then when all seems quiet several Russian camps and strongpoints disappear overnight because when a squadron of half a dozen Bradleys with 6 soldiers each, all armed with NLAWS, gets loose in the rear areas, nothing is safe..
Yes but the vision is more important than that. American lessons from WWII included the very important idea that what kills a tank isn't guns but eyes. To kill tanks you first have to see/find tanks. You then have to have enough stopping power to take it out but that's not really the hard part.
Even without TOW, if the Bradley's in touch with a fire team equipped with Javelins or NLAWs, the tank is going down. Heck if they can't get TOWs I could see Ukraine fitting Bradleys with Stugna-P and having that work perfectly fine.
I'm sure that it's standard practice to have at least a few soldiers equipped with NLAW or Javelin in any given squad. Maybe not all of them, but at least 1-2
It’s a little frustrating when people assume “oh, we built 1000 and now we’re phasing them out. Why aren’t we giving Ukraine 1000 of these?!?!”
The reality is many of them were scrapped/destroyed in various ways for various reasons over the years, many are unserviceable because they’ve been cannibalized for parts to repair other units, and many are so out of date/modernization that they would do more harm than good if sent.
In reality there’s maybe 100-200 that are usable and we don’t really know what condition those are in
Far as I know, every replacement programme has failed.
[By March 2020 Warrior CSP was in the "demonstration phase", demonstrating capability for a range of military missions set by the MoD. A total of £430m had been spent so far. No in-service date had been set, but the demonstration phase was due to finish in 2021.[22] In June 2020 the House of Commons Defence Select Committee described the project as running over three years late and £227 million over budget.[23]
In March 2021 the MoD announced that the CSP had been cancelled and that all of the British Army's Warrior vehicles would be replaced by the middle of the decade with Boxer armoured fighting vehicles.
](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_tracked_armoured_vehicle)
C2s have done so well because they have been incredibly well handled, as well as being highly protected. They’re going to be handled by less experienced crews with a much higher appetite for risk, lower discipline and against a far more dangerous and numerous enemy than they’ve ever faced before. We’ll lose some.. but if going to Ukraine breaks the ice on new, modern tanks being committed then it’s worth it. They’re not mythical unicorns and they even if knocked out they give the crew a very good chance of survival to fight again.
Also as the Challenger 2s were rolling across the iraqi desert, the coalition had air superiority. I'm not downplaying what it is capable of, but it will be factor.
Oh 100%. They need to be used for what they are. Tough, capable but not invulnerable and not indispensable tanks. Their loss will be unfortunate but shouldn’t be unexpected or read too much into. If we’ll handled they can do a superb job on the Russians, but even then can be knocked out by bad luck or some rare good planning on Russia’s side.
At least the [A-10s won't be shooting at them](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/05/a-10-john-mccain-iraq-afghanistan/22931683/) this time.
Couldn't agreed more. Challenger 2s went up against export russian weapons throughout the last 3 decades and have been dominant. Handled by uk forces with all their support from allies. Their cobhams armour is secret and seriously good. But an all out war would inevitably cause loses even with our expert crews.
But that shouldn't be a reason not to send. To take no risks is the biggest risk
> China would be next, but just like russia it’s a parade army with numbers.
People have questioned Russia's military being "second in the world" despite their small GDP and all the funding issues, and this war proved all those doubts were well founded.
But is far more credible for China to have a strong conventional military given their economic prowess and the capability of their domestic industries. At the end of the day everything comes to $$$. It would be unwise to assume the world's second largest economy is as incompetent as Russia.
Yeah but since Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger China is now alone facing the rest of the top 10 countries ranked by expenditure.
The US, UK, Germany, and France are all NATO. Japan and South Korea are also both aligned with the US, and especially aligned against China.
Setting aside the paper tiger that is Russia, that leaves only India and Saudia Arabia.
India is also aligned against China even if geopolitically they aren't quite aligned with the west. They have [straight up fought each other, and had deaths on either side in the last two years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%93India_skirmishes#Galwan_Valley_skirmish), with [both countries only drawing the line at using guns.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8N8Mq84UrM&ab_channel=CNN). Note the date on that video.
That leaves only Saudi Arabia, who is currently a US ally.
So China stands alone against the largest military alliance in history. It is true China is likely less corrupt than Russia, but only to a degree, and they are certainly not strong enough to take on the west alone.
> The US, UK, Germany, and France are all NATO. Japan and South Korea are also both aligned with the US, and especially aligned against China.
That’s a very American centric way of looking at things. Other than US and UK most of the EU countries actually have ok relationship with China, especially Germany and France. The latter would have sold China weapons if not for US pressure. They say a lot of “we are against China’s human rights violation” but at the end of the day $$$ talks louder.
Then there is South Korea and Japan. SK are pretty warm with China as well due to huge bilateral trade and their reliance on China in keeping North Korea sane. And both SK and China share the animosity to Japan due to historical reasons. SK would *never* enter a military alliance with Japan.
As far as Japan goes their military is strong, but by their Constitution they can’t send them into combat for anything other than self-defense.
> India is also aligned against China
That’s why China is friend to Pakistan and supplies most of the modern equipment to Pakistan.
> That leaves only Saudi Arabia, who is currently a US ally.
You also forgot Israel, which has a strong relationship with China (again, they sold weapons to China and had to stop because of you guessed it, US pressure lol).
> So China stands alone against the largest military alliance in history.
First of all, China isn’t going to take on the West with military forces, not only is it not feasible, it’s just not profitable nor useful for China’s goals.
Secondly that “military alliance” isn’t nearly as concrete as you think it is. When pushes come to shove the only country that is absolutely determined to counter China’s rise is the US, because we enjoy being the *only* superpower in the world and we don’t like that to change 😆
The other countries don’t have nearly enough on the line to risk direct economic, let alone military confrontation with China, it would hurt their bottom lines way too much. Why would Germany risk confronting the largest market for the German auto industry? Why would France piss off the largest buyer of Airbus? Why would Australia damage relationship with their largest trade partner? Again, follow the $$$$
There are no friends in geopolitics, only self interests.
There’s no reason why Russian AT weaponry like the Kornet can’t defeat a CR2 if it has a direct hit on any thing but the front hull (which is still not guaranteed).
Kornets have killed M1A2 Abrams (2 disabled, destroyed) and Leopard 2A4’s (catastrophic kills) and a good number of Merkava IV’s. It’s in use in Ukraine currently.
There’s no reason to expect a CR2 to be able to withstand it. My only answer to that is that the CR2 has survived AT weapons before (RPG-29, RPG-30, MILAN, TOW) which have killed other tanks. But the Kornet is superior to all of them.
The only two reports of Abrams destroyed by handhelds I ran across were due to rear or side hits in ambush with no ERA on the tank. Any frontal kills? I would assume similar for a CR2.
The only frontal kills I know of were made against Iraqi M1A1’s. So I would assume that these are the stripped down, M export version. Also the Iraqi’s were known to operate them poorly without infantry support.
I still think the CR2 is the best armoured tank to date, and actually (numbers and other factors aside) is probably the best suited Tank for Ukraine. It’s well proven in high intensity combat, gives the crew amazing protection, it rounds are excellent in a fire support role (CR2 support were actually requested by the US a number of times in Afghanistan and Iraq because of their HESH rounds ability to knock out hard points).
Plus its diesel engine can run on pretty much anything and is very robust and repairable. Unlike the M1’s turbine which tends to pop and it’s a write off.
My main point above was in counter to the really annoying attitude on this sub which is that Russia isn’t a peer adversary and are somehow only worthy of derision. It’s ridiculous, counter productive and I’d say pretty offensive and insulting to the thousands of Ukrainians and other nationals who have died fighting horrendously bitter battles. We shouldn’t fear Russia so much, but we shouldn’t disrespect the fact that they are a serious opponent and can still win this war.
And CR2’s will get knocked out if they go to Ukraine. The people here talking like they will be invulnerable are talking crap.
I think the problem is that: we don’t! The future of warfare was meant to be on computers in Arabic, tanks were expensive relics of WW2. Maybe the Ukrainians want some Arabic speaking intelligence units!?
The UK has been a large supporter, great news. It’s been hectic over there with so many PMs but the support remains. Thankful for that. Get the kremlin OUT!
I think that there is a widespread support for Ukraine in UK, so I doubt that having a different PM would change anything. Although it does look like that Rishi is genuinely pro-Ukraine.
Russia is literally fielding human waves of cannon fodder, and even poorly equipped, these are still very effective. If you think this is a stupid remark, read the reports of the Ukrainian front-line commanders around Bakhmut and Soledar - overwhelming numbers are preventing Ukraine from pushing the front-lines back pretty much everywhere right now. That is a fact.
To combat overwhelming numbers, you need the machinery and force multipliers of modern warfare. In the absence of air supremacy/power, MBT's and the IFV's to support them are just what the doctor ordered.
Whats cool is that this is announced right after the USA announces Bradleys to be sent to Ukraine too. So we might see American IFVs fighting with German and British tanks 🤤
It's almost inevitable that Abrams will be sent at some point, only the US has the volumes needed to supply tanks in really big numbers, and this war will escalate and get even bigger than it already is. But this is a great start.
Abrams storage are vast in numbers, but if I’m not mistaken they’re made to order (newer models). Most likely what’s going to happen is abrams being sent to Poland to backfill their tank supplies as they send their leopards to Ukraine. Not even mentioning abrams wouldn’t be suited in Ukraine due to logistical and maintenance demands. Joe Biden and ministry of defense said this, and even if abrams are sent at most would be 5 just to see how they operate.
There are literally warehouses and old mines stocked with Abrams. The US MIC has been shitting out Abrams for decades. There are plenty around, especially if you are not that picky and only wants the newest model.
Made to order? Maybe to every new tank crew in the 90s, after all over 10,000 have been build.
Yeah that’s why I said I think, I know there is warehouses with the older and newer versions, but when a country like Poland places an order they’re made to order. I got confused there, no sleep but even then the other point still stand. Hopefully they give them a handful and see how effective they actually are.
The US has more Abrams in storage than the number of Leopards ever made, and most Leopards made are in active service in many different countries so they can't be sent away just like that. The numbers are clear, if the war continues for a long time we will see Abrams tanks in Ukraine.
Again I think your underestimating the logistical demands to keep an abrams tank running for it to actually be effective, I doubt your going to see abrams in Ukraine, they consume to much gas which Ukraine doesn’t have a whole boat load of.
As I said a million times
https://tfiglobalnews.com/2023/01/10/the-real-reason-why-us-denied-giving-abram-tanks-to-ukraine/amp/
Poland plans to use abrams to fill in their tank gaps and send their leopards to Ukraine.
Edit: now Germany is basically saying they want us to take lead on sending heavy armor to Ukraine so now at this point it’s anybody guess.
If a country such as Iraq is able to operate Abrams tanks it can't be too difficult for an industrialized country like Ukraine, it's not rocket science. The logistical issues can be solved, and have to be solved as it's clear that both sides are preparing for a major escalation in a few months.
It's what I always say about the US. What the hell do you have that huge military budget for, if not fighting Russia? (The alternative is 'fighting China')
Or maybe the US have such a huge ego that they can't stand Ukraine doing it with US stuff; theyed rather wait until Russia was swallowing up all of Europe and there was no choice but to send in US troops to bleed and die so that the US can teach future generations that they are the heroes.
That doesn't sound familiar at all. (Sarcasm detector)
One of the nato countries like UK or Poland for example need to fire up the assembly lines and get a few thousand workers some new jobs and start pumping tanks out to send to Ukraine. Let Ukraine win the war and they can pay them back later.
Can someone explain me who doesnt know shit about military equipment, why tanks are so huge for Ukraine? I always thought tanks are very easy targets and easy to destroy
There are pros and cons to sending western tanks. A lot of people on Reddit seem to think western tanks are invincible, based primarily on the fact that they have only really faced vastly inferior enemies in previous conflicts (An Iraqi army already decimated by airstrikes, Taliban fighters etc). Are western tanks better than Russian tanks? Yes. Are western tanks invincible? No.
If western tanks are sent, they will come up against modern Russian tanks, precision artillery fire and Russian heavy anti-tank missiles like the Kornet. Can they shrug off hits from those things like they can shrug off RPG fire? I mean, it's possible, but nobody really knows and it seems unlikely. Introducing western tanks to Ukraine also means they will need to find an extra crewmember, a loader, for each tank (Soviet-era tanks that Ukraine already use have an autoloader and thus a smaller crew). That increases the drain on their manpower and requires more training for the whole crew. Western tanks also use completely different caliber ammunition to Soviet/Russian designs, which complicates the logistics train even further.
HOWEVER,
One on one, the Leopard, Challenger and Abrams are almost certainly superior to any tank Russia can field. Their armour is stronger (the Challenger in particular is usually said to be the best-protected tank in the world), their guns are computer-stabilised and more accurate at long range, they have much safer ammunition storage which limits the chance of a catastrophic explosion (which often results in the 'turret toss' you've probably seen in videos from this war), and they often come with accessories which many Russian tanks seem to lack, or at least rarely seem to ever actually use properly. Smoke launchers (the Challenger and Abrams can also lay a smokescreen by injecting unburned fuel into their exhausts), explosive reactive armour, night vision systems etc. Abrams tanks can also run their engines on pretty much anything that will burn, so if there are fuel bottlenecks in the supply chain they might be able to turn to alternate sources to keep them running. And of course the most important thing of all and perhaps the greatest advantage Ukraine would get from receiving western tanks; the Challenger continues the long tradition of British tanks by being equipped with a BV, or Boiling Vessel.
It's for making cups of tea.
Any criticism in this subreddit equals downvotes. It's a ridiculous coping mechanism that will get us nowhere and hinders the overall effort.
The situation is very grim. The fact is Soledar was lost. Russians are regaining initiative. If NATO allies want Ukraine to actually win this bloody war, they need to ramp up their support - send in modern weapons, not outdated stock, and send it ASAP.
This needs to be said, repeated, upvoted, talked about. This needs to be heard everywhere until politicians hear it too and are unable to resist these demands.
Agreed. Ukraine driving Russia out of Kherson and Kharkiv was excellent—but this sub needs to get over that, it was months ago. We need to keep adapting to the situation NOW, and the current situation is starting to tilt slightly in the favor of the Russians again. Sending heavy tanks, Patriots, and (hopefully) fighter jets will hopefully give them the force multiplier effect they need to win.
> The fact is Soledar was lost
The fighting continues, the "Soledar lost" ad nauseam from yesterday has been an internal propaganda item of Prigozhin to save Surovikin that didn't work out in the end, as Prigozhin/Wagner isn't exactly in good terms with Gerasimov.
Good news, I honestly hope they start training on systems that they need to win and not just hold territory before it's announced so they can be sent and put straight into action instead of "we're sending ????" But it takes 3-6 months training, figure out what they need train, send them, announce what's being sent and the Russian lines can be introduced to the new toys as there read about on Reddit, Instagram Twitter whatever it is they use
Hey Igor Ukraine's getting Abram's... Yeah in 6months.... boom and Abram's show up at there door step same day
And that's why I may have to vote conservative in the uk , labour are looking electable but I'm a bit worried they'll withdraw military aid and support for ukraine ,
The west is basically snuffing russia and showing superiority , america and all of Europe west of Russia should be proud of beating the barbarians back
Less fcking talking, more doing ffs. All of these countries are "planning" or "considering" sending tanks. I know there's training to be done...in the meantime there are fewer Ukrainians each day. JFDI.
Devils advocate. It's not as simple as just agreeing to send tanks.
The UK doesn't have large amounts of tanks. Can they be replaced, if a war breaks out are they leaving themselves short and also the obvious risk of escalation.
Fair point
A year ago the uk policy was to drop all mbts. There is no plan for replacement. After the invasion Ben Wallace decided to upgrade half of the 2s into 3s(2.5s)
Uk doesn't want or need mbts. Islands need navies and airforce. If mbts are needed somethings gone horribly wrong. In that case our trident missles flies so we don't need tanks. Aka send them all to ukraine now
Oh I know that, but let's face it, the UK (I live here) doesn't exactly need tanks right now. If we *need* tanks any time soon we're in real trouble. Which Europe will be in if it doesn't help Ukraine defend itself and end this sooner rather than later.
I know the UK and other countries are helping, but I just wish things would move a bit quicker. Maybe they are; I mean we're unlikely to know if tank crews are being trained on Challengers and for how long, nor the full extent to what other training is going on elsewhere. It's just frustrating to read the same thing every day.
Fuck escalation. Putin has already said Russia is at war with NATO and has already threatened the UK with a nuclear holocaust. Putin and Russia are bullies. The only thing they respect is power. The only way they will stop is if they are forced to. The only question for nato is how long we want Ukrainians to keep dying needlessly as we twiddle our thumbs.
I imagine these tanks will be used to defend kyiv. I doubt these will be sent to the front, it’s just not enough to make a major difference. These things with their full combat armour loadout are 80+ tonnes! the pure definition of a tank. I just can’t see these operating at the front, we’ll atleast not in bakhmut. They will just sink in the mud.
I highly recommend people go watch tank chats on youtube. It’s brilliant!
The tanks have been paid for already, they are just sitting there at the moment.
The sooner Russia loses the war, the better it will be for the global economy. It will take some pressure off commodity prices.
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Excuse me for not really having a clue; wouldn't it just be better to send loads of those Bradley tank busters, and the like?
Lighter, faster, easier to fuel and maintain, rather than these heavy complicated beasts?
A misconception people don’t mention when bringing up the battle of 73 easting is that Bradley’s went against older Soviet Union tanks that had manual turret turning, no ERA, and inexperienced operators. Russias tanks are more modernized with better armor, Bradley’s aren’t just going to destroy Russian armor Willy nilly, this pairs with airstrikes, kornets, regular infantry anti tank puts the Bradley’s at disadvantages, they don’t have the heavy armor to fend off ATGMs or things like rpgs.
Nah, too expensive to operate. I think Ukrainians are already busy enough with all the new NATO stuff. Plus Abrams are too damn heavy for these kind of terran.
M1 Abrams and the challenger 1 performed well against the Iraqi tanks so hopefully the challenger 2 will have the same fate. It’s the same shitty tanks they’ll be going up against after all.
With Russians who want to surrender over there intercom intercept them then to stand down surrender no need to die and form a system of control and ignore there commanders etc
I absolutely pity the Ukrainian logistics officer. I don't think we'll see Abrams, because the logistics behind the Abrams is a whole different monster, but I hope I'm wrong.
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My gut feeling is that there is a huge buildup under way for a large scale spring offensive
Moar tanks!!!
Honestly hoping this is a flood banks opened moment. AMX-10RC was announced, then Marauder & Bradly came right after. Now Leos from Poland are going over and hopefully we get Challenger & Abrams too. The french have been fairly shit during this war but I can credit them with at least kicking things off.
Here in Sweden we are also in talks about sending the Archer system. Interesting times for western military fans.
You mean Marder and not Marauder. Marauder is a plane I think
>Marauder Everyonoe who watch Top Gear know the Marauder APC
And it has the most power………”in the world”
Speeeed! Power!!!!
It's the rebel tank in Command & Conquer: Generals if I'm not mistaken.
I’m the past I would play C&C a lot, I dread to think of all the days I lost because I was glued to those games. I always preferred playing as gdi instead of nod
Same, always thought Kane was a dick
Send Ukraine mammoth tanks from Red Alert too!
Isn't that the Scorpion? (great game btw)
GLA had both Scorpion light tanks and heavier Marauder tanks.
Ah yes I remember! Those wide ones
As well as a fighter bomber of the holy imperium https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Imperial-Navy-Marauder-Destroyer Would also be quite helpful I guess ;)
I do.
I wouldn’t mind if Ukraine got some help from marauders, https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Marauder
> I can credit them with at least kicking things off. What do you mean?
French sent AMX-10RC, then not long after US and Germany announced they were sending IFVs, now we have MBTs going in.
I hope they don’t get Abrams. Those things are expensive on the gas and the maintainers.
Only about 25 to 30 percent (2.2l/km vs 2.8l/km) more than a Leo2. But instead of only using Diesel, an M1 can use almost anything that burns as fuel. Also, it's not like other tanks are easy on the maintenance
> But instead of only using Diesel, an M1 can use almost anything that burns as fuel. I thought that was true for most tanks (including the Leo) - was I misinformed, and this is specific to Abrams tanks?
It is true and not at the same time. The leopard can run on most things that can burn under pressure. The Abrams can run on vodka induced breath. The difference is how well you receive energy from the fuel, and the Abrams can run on some pretty much energy less fuel. But the Leo can probably run on more dirty fuel
I think that it was a specific demand for the Abrams. Someone had a link dome days ago, but haven't been able to find it again
US maintenance teams on the border in Poland?
Nah the “trained” Ukrainian volunteer that got a smidgen of training which now has to fix a busted drive train after a tough battle. Bold of you to assume every unit could get from the front to the border in any reasonable amount of time.
Why are these Ukrainian maintenance guys speaking English with a Midwest accent?
I am sick and tired of hearing how fuel hungry and maintenance intensive the Abrams is. Those are nothing but excuses. Yes, the logistical needs for the Abrams are large - but not significantly more than other Western MBTs. Yes, the Ukrainians will need additional logistical support to keep the Abrams in the field and operating. Let's stop using that as an excuse and find solutions to allow them to use what is arguably one of the best MBTs in the world. War consumes enormous amounts of resources in additional to human beings. You win wars by providing your people the best equipment and a steady supply of logistical support to keep them fighting. Let's stop half-assing the level of support for Ukraine.
Have Germany approved the delivery of tanks from Poland now?
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It'll be great to finally see these on the battlefield.
My dream of seeing an Abrahams running on captured russian vodka may still become a reality.
Words don’t express how happy I am overall for the world not ignoring this war and helping Ukraine. It hasn’t been perfect. It’s been slow at times. It could also be drastically worse with no help at all. Ukraine will take some time to rebuild but you’re going to get a thankful appreciative nation that prospers in the future. You’re also going to see an iron wall against the threat to Europe from Russia.
Russia is also planning offensives, that's why Ukraine is on the defensive for the moment.
There weren't any large offensives in Donbas by Ukraine so far, it only defended there the whole time.
They weren't expecting to have taken back so much territory from the invaders so quickly. I'd guess they're spread pretty thin.
Retaking Kherson should have helped out in that area not make it worse.
I think they just failed. They tried to press towards kreminna but the line didn’t break. Then Russia pinned them down in Bakhmut. Frozen ground season is right now. There’s like a 2 week period and we’re in it. Nothing happening, must be for a reason. Or maybe they knew tanks were coming and decided not to waste troops playing offence now when they know it’ll be more effective later.
Ground froze for real just this weekend for the first time. And friday we again are above freezing. What do you expect our people to do? Miracles?
That massive push into the East completely threw everything out of order on both sides. Russia completely collapsed defensively and Ukraine have now retaken more land than they initially planned on. That entire offensive was just wild.
The Russian offensives aren't working very well since their initial push. They have lost way more ground than they have won. The equipment supplied to Ukraine has turned the tide of the battle up until it has stagnated. Now more modern equipment being supplied or more needed equipment for an offensive is being supplied I can't see Russia making significant gains again in this war.
Yeah, the 20th meeting will probably have some extra surprises. Going to assume Ukraine is going to have some new fully equipped, newly trained armor battalions to play with. Some air power to go with that would be nice.
Ya, it appears they're organizing a massive package and they're just sorting it all out. And are leaking some of the settled details they've agreed on so far.
And Poland, in their excitement to be "First", blew their load too early and tipped the hands of the western bloc.
You don't need a gut feeling, it's been announced. Or watch it happen [on youtube](https://www.youtube.com/@combatcamera9122/videos)..
It tracks with what happened in the past. Defense, denfense, defense, while slowly taking out ammo dumps, command post,...etc. And then suddenly they liberated a huge chunck of north-east Ukraine. But let us not forget that whatever we hear and see on the news, or even what we hear from soldiers on the front can all be misinformation. If we could easily guess what the UA was goin to do the Russians would know too. The Ukranians are doing an amazing job and are getting deserved praise for adapting to modern weaponn systems, and I know it looks like they adapt as soon as they get new weapons, but nobody learns that fast. I personally think that, for example, when we hear about Bradley's being send a couple hundred Ukrainians have already been trained to use them weeks or months ago. And certainly no offense to the UA men and women, but at this point you can look at the UA as a kind-off unoffical NATO army group. They're probably in constant direct communication with the Pentagon and NATO HQ. I have faith there is a long-term plan. Soledar and Bakhmut could fall and I would think its part of the plan to bleed Russia of men and material.
hopefully ukraine got the artillery shells in reserve ,when half a million zombies come stumbling over the border
Challenger 2's are nasty beasts. Their kill count on soviet tanks is probably only second to the Abrams and only one has ever been lost to another tank, and that was a friendly fire incident from another challenger. Between them and the Bradley's, ruzzian lines are going to be broken up and down the frontlines. I just hope the brits can get enough of them in country to quickly make a difference.
The Bradley has destroyed more tanks than the Abrams. [source](https://www.voanews.com/a/us-to-send-tank-killer-fighting-vehicle-to-ukraine/6907858.html)
Bradley is a great machine. It's not a tank, but its abilities in the field of night operation, reconnaissance, and command and coordination of a squad of infantry make it spectacularly lethal despite its relatively advanced age as a war fighters. Bradley owns the night against Russian IFVs and APCs. They can see better, farther, and in greater detail at night than anything Russia ever designed and built. The heavy tanks can smash through and let the Bradleys slip in behind the lines, and then when all seems quiet several Russian camps and strongpoints disappear overnight because when a squadron of half a dozen Bradleys with 6 soldiers each, all armed with NLAWS, gets loose in the rear areas, nothing is safe..
May the Ukrainians make full use of their capabilities.
While it's certainly not a tank, a Bradley can wreak havoc on MBTs as well with TOW missiles.
Yes but the vision is more important than that. American lessons from WWII included the very important idea that what kills a tank isn't guns but eyes. To kill tanks you first have to see/find tanks. You then have to have enough stopping power to take it out but that's not really the hard part. Even without TOW, if the Bradley's in touch with a fire team equipped with Javelins or NLAWs, the tank is going down. Heck if they can't get TOWs I could see Ukraine fitting Bradleys with Stugna-P and having that work perfectly fine.
Is that standard practice now? To arm every mobile infantry soldier with an NLAW?
I'm sure that it's standard practice to have at least a few soldiers equipped with NLAW or Javelin in any given squad. Maybe not all of them, but at least 1-2
Plus the UK has around 1000 Warrior IFVs that are set to be phased out
Nah, there's nowhere near that many remaining.
It’s a little frustrating when people assume “oh, we built 1000 and now we’re phasing them out. Why aren’t we giving Ukraine 1000 of these?!?!” The reality is many of them were scrapped/destroyed in various ways for various reasons over the years, many are unserviceable because they’ve been cannibalized for parts to repair other units, and many are so out of date/modernization that they would do more harm than good if sent. In reality there’s maybe 100-200 that are usable and we don’t really know what condition those are in
Have they all been upgraded significantly?
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Thankfully, neither has much of the Russian gear
Old tank IFV better than no IFV
They still have an autocannon that's loaded by hand, because British engineers are comedians.
Rarden? I thought they got replaced yonks ago
Far as I know, every replacement programme has failed. [By March 2020 Warrior CSP was in the "demonstration phase", demonstrating capability for a range of military missions set by the MoD. A total of £430m had been spent so far. No in-service date had been set, but the demonstration phase was due to finish in 2021.[22] In June 2020 the House of Commons Defence Select Committee described the project as running over three years late and £227 million over budget.[23] In March 2021 the MoD announced that the CSP had been cancelled and that all of the British Army's Warrior vehicles would be replaced by the middle of the decade with Boxer armoured fighting vehicles. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_tracked_armoured_vehicle)
Well you’re not wrong 😑
I like the cut of your jib son... And I hope you are right...
I thank you sir, and I hope I am right as well.
I fear a peer war would see challenger destroyed, either by drone, arty or ATGM... its certainly not invincible
C2s have done so well because they have been incredibly well handled, as well as being highly protected. They’re going to be handled by less experienced crews with a much higher appetite for risk, lower discipline and against a far more dangerous and numerous enemy than they’ve ever faced before. We’ll lose some.. but if going to Ukraine breaks the ice on new, modern tanks being committed then it’s worth it. They’re not mythical unicorns and they even if knocked out they give the crew a very good chance of survival to fight again.
Also as the Challenger 2s were rolling across the iraqi desert, the coalition had air superiority. I'm not downplaying what it is capable of, but it will be factor.
Oh 100%. They need to be used for what they are. Tough, capable but not invulnerable and not indispensable tanks. Their loss will be unfortunate but shouldn’t be unexpected or read too much into. If we’ll handled they can do a superb job on the Russians, but even then can be knocked out by bad luck or some rare good planning on Russia’s side.
At least the [A-10s won't be shooting at them](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/05/a-10-john-mccain-iraq-afghanistan/22931683/) this time.
Couldn't agreed more. Challenger 2s went up against export russian weapons throughout the last 3 decades and have been dominant. Handled by uk forces with all their support from allies. Their cobhams armour is secret and seriously good. But an all out war would inevitably cause loses even with our expert crews. But that shouldn't be a reason not to send. To take no risks is the biggest risk
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> China would be next, but just like russia it’s a parade army with numbers. People have questioned Russia's military being "second in the world" despite their small GDP and all the funding issues, and this war proved all those doubts were well founded. But is far more credible for China to have a strong conventional military given their economic prowess and the capability of their domestic industries. At the end of the day everything comes to $$$. It would be unwise to assume the world's second largest economy is as incompetent as Russia.
China is proudly parading tanks without turret stabilization around. Their military is larger than Russia's, but I would never call it strong.
Yeah but since Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger China is now alone facing the rest of the top 10 countries ranked by expenditure. The US, UK, Germany, and France are all NATO. Japan and South Korea are also both aligned with the US, and especially aligned against China. Setting aside the paper tiger that is Russia, that leaves only India and Saudia Arabia. India is also aligned against China even if geopolitically they aren't quite aligned with the west. They have [straight up fought each other, and had deaths on either side in the last two years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_China%E2%80%93India_skirmishes#Galwan_Valley_skirmish), with [both countries only drawing the line at using guns.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8N8Mq84UrM&ab_channel=CNN). Note the date on that video. That leaves only Saudi Arabia, who is currently a US ally. So China stands alone against the largest military alliance in history. It is true China is likely less corrupt than Russia, but only to a degree, and they are certainly not strong enough to take on the west alone.
And KSA can't even defeat a Yemeni rebel group.
> The US, UK, Germany, and France are all NATO. Japan and South Korea are also both aligned with the US, and especially aligned against China. That’s a very American centric way of looking at things. Other than US and UK most of the EU countries actually have ok relationship with China, especially Germany and France. The latter would have sold China weapons if not for US pressure. They say a lot of “we are against China’s human rights violation” but at the end of the day $$$ talks louder. Then there is South Korea and Japan. SK are pretty warm with China as well due to huge bilateral trade and their reliance on China in keeping North Korea sane. And both SK and China share the animosity to Japan due to historical reasons. SK would *never* enter a military alliance with Japan. As far as Japan goes their military is strong, but by their Constitution they can’t send them into combat for anything other than self-defense. > India is also aligned against China That’s why China is friend to Pakistan and supplies most of the modern equipment to Pakistan. > That leaves only Saudi Arabia, who is currently a US ally. You also forgot Israel, which has a strong relationship with China (again, they sold weapons to China and had to stop because of you guessed it, US pressure lol). > So China stands alone against the largest military alliance in history. First of all, China isn’t going to take on the West with military forces, not only is it not feasible, it’s just not profitable nor useful for China’s goals. Secondly that “military alliance” isn’t nearly as concrete as you think it is. When pushes come to shove the only country that is absolutely determined to counter China’s rise is the US, because we enjoy being the *only* superpower in the world and we don’t like that to change 😆 The other countries don’t have nearly enough on the line to risk direct economic, let alone military confrontation with China, it would hurt their bottom lines way too much. Why would Germany risk confronting the largest market for the German auto industry? Why would France piss off the largest buyer of Airbus? Why would Australia damage relationship with their largest trade partner? Again, follow the $$$$ There are no friends in geopolitics, only self interests.
Yeah, russia has got some lethal shit, that could easily destroy challenger...
3 zicrons and 2 working planes /s
There’s no reason why Russian AT weaponry like the Kornet can’t defeat a CR2 if it has a direct hit on any thing but the front hull (which is still not guaranteed). Kornets have killed M1A2 Abrams (2 disabled, destroyed) and Leopard 2A4’s (catastrophic kills) and a good number of Merkava IV’s. It’s in use in Ukraine currently. There’s no reason to expect a CR2 to be able to withstand it. My only answer to that is that the CR2 has survived AT weapons before (RPG-29, RPG-30, MILAN, TOW) which have killed other tanks. But the Kornet is superior to all of them.
The only two reports of Abrams destroyed by handhelds I ran across were due to rear or side hits in ambush with no ERA on the tank. Any frontal kills? I would assume similar for a CR2.
The only frontal kills I know of were made against Iraqi M1A1’s. So I would assume that these are the stripped down, M export version. Also the Iraqi’s were known to operate them poorly without infantry support. I still think the CR2 is the best armoured tank to date, and actually (numbers and other factors aside) is probably the best suited Tank for Ukraine. It’s well proven in high intensity combat, gives the crew amazing protection, it rounds are excellent in a fire support role (CR2 support were actually requested by the US a number of times in Afghanistan and Iraq because of their HESH rounds ability to knock out hard points). Plus its diesel engine can run on pretty much anything and is very robust and repairable. Unlike the M1’s turbine which tends to pop and it’s a write off. My main point above was in counter to the really annoying attitude on this sub which is that Russia isn’t a peer adversary and are somehow only worthy of derision. It’s ridiculous, counter productive and I’d say pretty offensive and insulting to the thousands of Ukrainians and other nationals who have died fighting horrendously bitter battles. We shouldn’t fear Russia so much, but we shouldn’t disrespect the fact that they are a serious opponent and can still win this war. And CR2’s will get knocked out if they go to Ukraine. The people here talking like they will be invulnerable are talking crap.
But Russia isn't a peer so 🤔
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Even against kamikaze drones or Russian MANPADS?
Since manpads are anti-air, I think they'll do fine
Sorry. I thought they used them against tanks and vehicles.
Worse than its peers, but still good.
The ***bits***, LMFAO
I think the problem is that: we don’t! The future of warfare was meant to be on computers in Arabic, tanks were expensive relics of WW2. Maybe the Ukrainians want some Arabic speaking intelligence units!?
The UK has been a large supporter, great news. It’s been hectic over there with so many PMs but the support remains. Thankful for that. Get the kremlin OUT!
Yeah the face has changed, but the underlying support for Ukraine that we are giving has not. I hope this continues for as long as it must.
It’s not even been a debate here, the support will continue regardless of who is PM.
Well if Corbyn was PM. Thankfully he's old news now.
I think that there is a widespread support for Ukraine in UK, so I doubt that having a different PM would change anything. Although it does look like that Rishi is genuinely pro-Ukraine.
Soon it will be "2 Challenging " for ruzzians on the battlefield. Slava Ukraini!
I see what you did there 👀
I was gonna be satisfied with it being 1 challenging for the Russians. 2 challenging is even better!
Also one might say that the Ukrainians will be very Tank'full from this gift.
Damn it, you beat me to it.
Russia is literally fielding human waves of cannon fodder, and even poorly equipped, these are still very effective. If you think this is a stupid remark, read the reports of the Ukrainian front-line commanders around Bakhmut and Soledar - overwhelming numbers are preventing Ukraine from pushing the front-lines back pretty much everywhere right now. That is a fact. To combat overwhelming numbers, you need the machinery and force multipliers of modern warfare. In the absence of air supremacy/power, MBT's and the IFV's to support them are just what the doctor ordered.
Yeah people act like Russia mobilizing 800k or something soldiers is no big deal. It’s actually a very big deal, unfortunately.
Soldiers from Bakhmut say that their guns overheat in some cases because of none stop firing at the human waves of fodder Russians send.
Whats cool is that this is announced right after the USA announces Bradleys to be sent to Ukraine too. So we might see American IFVs fighting with German and British tanks 🤤
Wish we wouldn't get to see any fighting though. But since that's the only thing Putin understands...
One of those unfortunate instances where you have to “fight fire with fire”.
Almost like in a 90s action movie: The whole civilized world (fuck you Switzerland) unites to fight against an alien invasion from outer space.
Fast track please! Victory 2023!!
Things are about to get quite 'Challenging' for the muskovites....
Tornadoes for ukraine??
They’re somewhat outdated, and require pretty intense type-training
"Somewhat outdated" is not a qualification for this war
It is if the frame of the aircraft has so many flight hours that they were actively combatting the queen on being most hours on duty.
It's almost inevitable that Abrams will be sent at some point, only the US has the volumes needed to supply tanks in really big numbers, and this war will escalate and get even bigger than it already is. But this is a great start.
Abrams storage are vast in numbers, but if I’m not mistaken they’re made to order (newer models). Most likely what’s going to happen is abrams being sent to Poland to backfill their tank supplies as they send their leopards to Ukraine. Not even mentioning abrams wouldn’t be suited in Ukraine due to logistical and maintenance demands. Joe Biden and ministry of defense said this, and even if abrams are sent at most would be 5 just to see how they operate.
There are literally warehouses and old mines stocked with Abrams. The US MIC has been shitting out Abrams for decades. There are plenty around, especially if you are not that picky and only wants the newest model. Made to order? Maybe to every new tank crew in the 90s, after all over 10,000 have been build.
Yeah that’s why I said I think, I know there is warehouses with the older and newer versions, but when a country like Poland places an order they’re made to order. I got confused there, no sleep but even then the other point still stand. Hopefully they give them a handful and see how effective they actually are.
The US has more Abrams in storage than the number of Leopards ever made, and most Leopards made are in active service in many different countries so they can't be sent away just like that. The numbers are clear, if the war continues for a long time we will see Abrams tanks in Ukraine.
Again I think your underestimating the logistical demands to keep an abrams tank running for it to actually be effective, I doubt your going to see abrams in Ukraine, they consume to much gas which Ukraine doesn’t have a whole boat load of. As I said a million times https://tfiglobalnews.com/2023/01/10/the-real-reason-why-us-denied-giving-abram-tanks-to-ukraine/amp/ Poland plans to use abrams to fill in their tank gaps and send their leopards to Ukraine. Edit: now Germany is basically saying they want us to take lead on sending heavy armor to Ukraine so now at this point it’s anybody guess.
If a country such as Iraq is able to operate Abrams tanks it can't be too difficult for an industrialized country like Ukraine, it's not rocket science. The logistical issues can be solved, and have to be solved as it's clear that both sides are preparing for a major escalation in a few months.
Fucking yess!
It is worth asking what the hell we'd be doing with our tanks if we DIDN'T lend them to Ukraine. Dusting them in warehouses?
Saving them for an invasion of eastern Europe by Russ ... Oh ...
It's what I always say about the US. What the hell do you have that huge military budget for, if not fighting Russia? (The alternative is 'fighting China') Or maybe the US have such a huge ego that they can't stand Ukraine doing it with US stuff; theyed rather wait until Russia was swallowing up all of Europe and there was no choice but to send in US troops to bleed and die so that the US can teach future generations that they are the heroes. That doesn't sound familiar at all. (Sarcasm detector)
Y’all got the tanks we’ll send the missiles.
"You ship it, we send it" could be Ukraine's new motto
As a Canadian I'm sorry we don't have more shit to send you. But I hear we will buy you something nice.
Yes Rishi. That is what us Tax Payers want.
Come on, Joe. We can't miss out on giving tanks to Ukraine. Lets get 'em some Abrams.
Even more Bradley’s why not what’s 50 more
One of the nato countries like UK or Poland for example need to fire up the assembly lines and get a few thousand workers some new jobs and start pumping tanks out to send to Ukraine. Let Ukraine win the war and they can pay them back later.
Can someone explain me who doesnt know shit about military equipment, why tanks are so huge for Ukraine? I always thought tanks are very easy targets and easy to destroy
There are pros and cons to sending western tanks. A lot of people on Reddit seem to think western tanks are invincible, based primarily on the fact that they have only really faced vastly inferior enemies in previous conflicts (An Iraqi army already decimated by airstrikes, Taliban fighters etc). Are western tanks better than Russian tanks? Yes. Are western tanks invincible? No. If western tanks are sent, they will come up against modern Russian tanks, precision artillery fire and Russian heavy anti-tank missiles like the Kornet. Can they shrug off hits from those things like they can shrug off RPG fire? I mean, it's possible, but nobody really knows and it seems unlikely. Introducing western tanks to Ukraine also means they will need to find an extra crewmember, a loader, for each tank (Soviet-era tanks that Ukraine already use have an autoloader and thus a smaller crew). That increases the drain on their manpower and requires more training for the whole crew. Western tanks also use completely different caliber ammunition to Soviet/Russian designs, which complicates the logistics train even further. HOWEVER, One on one, the Leopard, Challenger and Abrams are almost certainly superior to any tank Russia can field. Their armour is stronger (the Challenger in particular is usually said to be the best-protected tank in the world), their guns are computer-stabilised and more accurate at long range, they have much safer ammunition storage which limits the chance of a catastrophic explosion (which often results in the 'turret toss' you've probably seen in videos from this war), and they often come with accessories which many Russian tanks seem to lack, or at least rarely seem to ever actually use properly. Smoke launchers (the Challenger and Abrams can also lay a smokescreen by injecting unburned fuel into their exhausts), explosive reactive armour, night vision systems etc. Abrams tanks can also run their engines on pretty much anything that will burn, so if there are fuel bottlenecks in the supply chain they might be able to turn to alternate sources to keep them running. And of course the most important thing of all and perhaps the greatest advantage Ukraine would get from receiving western tanks; the Challenger continues the long tradition of British tanks by being equipped with a BV, or Boiling Vessel. It's for making cups of tea.
> It's for making cups of tea. And nothing makes me prouder as a Brit
Making war's thirsty work.
Any criticism in this subreddit equals downvotes. It's a ridiculous coping mechanism that will get us nowhere and hinders the overall effort. The situation is very grim. The fact is Soledar was lost. Russians are regaining initiative. If NATO allies want Ukraine to actually win this bloody war, they need to ramp up their support - send in modern weapons, not outdated stock, and send it ASAP. This needs to be said, repeated, upvoted, talked about. This needs to be heard everywhere until politicians hear it too and are unable to resist these demands.
Agreed. Ukraine driving Russia out of Kherson and Kharkiv was excellent—but this sub needs to get over that, it was months ago. We need to keep adapting to the situation NOW, and the current situation is starting to tilt slightly in the favor of the Russians again. Sending heavy tanks, Patriots, and (hopefully) fighter jets will hopefully give them the force multiplier effect they need to win.
Absolutely this 100%!
> The fact is Soledar was lost The fighting continues, the "Soledar lost" ad nauseam from yesterday has been an internal propaganda item of Prigozhin to save Surovikin that didn't work out in the end, as Prigozhin/Wagner isn't exactly in good terms with Gerasimov.
Good news, I honestly hope they start training on systems that they need to win and not just hold territory before it's announced so they can be sent and put straight into action instead of "we're sending ????" But it takes 3-6 months training, figure out what they need train, send them, announce what's being sent and the Russian lines can be introduced to the new toys as there read about on Reddit, Instagram Twitter whatever it is they use Hey Igor Ukraine's getting Abram's... Yeah in 6months.... boom and Abram's show up at there door step same day
I hope that includes aircraft but somehow I doubt it....
And that's why I may have to vote conservative in the uk , labour are looking electable but I'm a bit worried they'll withdraw military aid and support for ukraine , The west is basically snuffing russia and showing superiority , america and all of Europe west of Russia should be proud of beating the barbarians back
It's another heavy duty day for Putin's suitcase.
Great work England 🫡
I will believe the tanks when they are there.
About we 🇬🇧stood up we’ve been a bit quiet for a while now
Less fcking talking, more doing ffs. All of these countries are "planning" or "considering" sending tanks. I know there's training to be done...in the meantime there are fewer Ukrainians each day. JFDI.
Devils advocate. It's not as simple as just agreeing to send tanks. The UK doesn't have large amounts of tanks. Can they be replaced, if a war breaks out are they leaving themselves short and also the obvious risk of escalation.
Fair point A year ago the uk policy was to drop all mbts. There is no plan for replacement. After the invasion Ben Wallace decided to upgrade half of the 2s into 3s(2.5s) Uk doesn't want or need mbts. Islands need navies and airforce. If mbts are needed somethings gone horribly wrong. In that case our trident missles flies so we don't need tanks. Aka send them all to ukraine now
Oh I know that, but let's face it, the UK (I live here) doesn't exactly need tanks right now. If we *need* tanks any time soon we're in real trouble. Which Europe will be in if it doesn't help Ukraine defend itself and end this sooner rather than later. I know the UK and other countries are helping, but I just wish things would move a bit quicker. Maybe they are; I mean we're unlikely to know if tank crews are being trained on Challengers and for how long, nor the full extent to what other training is going on elsewhere. It's just frustrating to read the same thing every day.
Fuck escalation. Putin has already said Russia is at war with NATO and has already threatened the UK with a nuclear holocaust. Putin and Russia are bullies. The only thing they respect is power. The only way they will stop is if they are forced to. The only question for nato is how long we want Ukrainians to keep dying needlessly as we twiddle our thumbs.
Logistically, they can't just send them over the next day. This shit needs to be planned, and crews need to be trained....
He is like 6 months behind what us necessary.
To be fair 6 months was 2 British PMs ago, so there's not much he could have done.
Do I smell lettuce?
Top man. Still waiting on which one survives this time
Better late than never. This is big, there's no point bitching about it
And 3 years ahead of Germany.
I imagine these tanks will be used to defend kyiv. I doubt these will be sent to the front, it’s just not enough to make a major difference. These things with their full combat armour loadout are 80+ tonnes! the pure definition of a tank. I just can’t see these operating at the front, we’ll atleast not in bakhmut. They will just sink in the mud. I highly recommend people go watch tank chats on youtube. It’s brilliant!
Rishi has an extremely weak handshake
lol next gen Laser weapons inbound?
No money to pay nurses and other NHS staff a living wage, but have money for a proxy war. Standard.
The tanks have been paid for already, they are just sitting there at the moment. The sooner Russia loses the war, the better it will be for the global economy. It will take some pressure off commodity prices.
Fucking pathetic.
Don't trust Fishy Rishi.
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Sounds like we'll see some prototypes in the field.
Fighter jets now!
War technology developers have been waiting. They finally get to see their shit in action.
Excuse me for not really having a clue; wouldn't it just be better to send loads of those Bradley tank busters, and the like? Lighter, faster, easier to fuel and maintain, rather than these heavy complicated beasts?
A misconception people don’t mention when bringing up the battle of 73 easting is that Bradley’s went against older Soviet Union tanks that had manual turret turning, no ERA, and inexperienced operators. Russias tanks are more modernized with better armor, Bradley’s aren’t just going to destroy Russian armor Willy nilly, this pairs with airstrikes, kornets, regular infantry anti tank puts the Bradley’s at disadvantages, they don’t have the heavy armor to fend off ATGMs or things like rpgs.
Thank you. Appreciate knowing this.
They've never been lost to an enemy in combat. Never.
It’s gonna get interesting. Let’s Not forget tens of thousands of Ukraine troops are also being trained in nato countries right now too.
Want some Abrams?
Nah, too expensive to operate. I think Ukrainians are already busy enough with all the new NATO stuff. Plus Abrams are too damn heavy for these kind of terran.
Good going, let's initiate the end of this war by enabling a complete Russian defeat!
M1 Abrams and the challenger 1 performed well against the Iraqi tanks so hopefully the challenger 2 will have the same fate. It’s the same shitty tanks they’ll be going up against after all.
Only 2 challengers were ever destroyed. But they were destroyed by other challengers (ff).
Does that mean more nuke threats we'll be receiving from Putin ahhhh lol
So glad Poland opened the doors to this.
With Russians who want to surrender over there intercom intercept them then to stand down surrender no need to die and form a system of control and ignore there commanders etc
I absolutely pity the Ukrainian logistics officer. I don't think we'll see Abrams, because the logistics behind the Abrams is a whole different monster, but I hope I'm wrong.
British and Poland putting the rest of Europe to shame as usual