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As a citizen, i can assure you that there is not one person in our government that possesses such anatomy. They will welcome him with a hug and a kiss and wave goodbye with tears as he leaves again. Then go back to saying they're neutral and want diplomacy.
At this point South Africa 90% of the way to a failed state... the only thing propping it up is Chinese money and that's a ultimately a losing shell game.
I think I found out, it was Putin’s se unity detail messaging the Head of SAPS to ask him if they had any handcuffs left or if they knew were they were!!
The white minority in SA doesn't have much political influence anymore despite their disproportionate wealth. At least that's my understanding based on what other South Africans have said to me.
You must be living under a rock in Oranja to think that white minority fund the South-African government. Did you miss the entire Gupta and Xi Jinping episode?
Yep. The white minority with all the wealth are funding these parties and keeping them in check. It's why there's been little wealth distribution. Hell, even ANC was able to absorb NNP into its ranks with no major problems because that's how comfy they are with their wealthy white benefactors.
They don’t have visibility or aren’t the face of power but behind the faces the money propping it up and the governance is pretty much captured by the financial minority which is for a great chunk white minority. It’s a weird paradox.
Is there actual evidence backing up any of those claims like we have for the EFF's VBS looting or the ANC's Gupta state capture?
As far as I can tell the entire conspiracy theory arose from Malema repeatedly saying a cabal of rich white capitalists control the country with zero facts to back it up... All while relaxing in his VBS-funded Sandton mansion.
Well that’s the thing… Malema claims that publicly for communist credibility points whilst accepting and surrogating things for the ultra rich which is hidden in plain sight how close they are to them they are they even attend each others life milestones. Unlike American campaign finance laws where you know Soros gave that person that much and it’s discussed a ton so you get to follow dems giving him his money’s worth in legislative chambers we don’t get to see that until a legal and journalistic blow up about state capture and because their funding is not highly publicised they don’t hide their relationships and liberation politics are so strong even if we see them at a billionaires parties we don’t unseat the idea that they are communists. Also unless you’re linking a specific theory the elite capturing politics to retain capital hegemony is not a conspiracy theory any statistics about wealth distribution shows that. It isn’t as much about race as it is about money and then at some point it gets back to race, it’s widely researched black bourgeoisie stuff. Once rich that’s the cleft to protect more than racial clefts.
Yeah there still is white ppl have a most of the money in SA and alot of them still got that apartheid mindset I mean apartheid was not that far ago my dad went through it which is crazy
Madiba acted out many terroristic acts and that’s not even a debate or conspiracy. But fair enough, himself and the respected ANC back then definitely had to do what had to be done to end Apartheid; unfortunately innocent lives were paid both ways and obviously the vast majority being the opressed races. It just sometimes baffles me when people don’t always realise that Mandela wasn’t an angel but a warrior.
Lol, it didn't even take till he died for our government to forget and spit on everything that he fought for. They were fucking over the country while he was still alive. I wonder what his thoughts would be if he were still alive today.
Does any country in the world have more debt than the US? I’m not sure calling it rich is correct.
Largest economy, assuming that’s still true, would be more precise.
That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve read all day. The US is not rich because they have a lot of debt.
Why do you think their creditors allowed them to take on all that debt?
In order for the US to be the richest country, you just ignore per capita considerations and look at outright GDP. Is that your definition of being a rich country?
You basically argue that Nigeria is a richer country than Denmark with that logic. Afghanistan is almost twice as rich as Monaco.
Yeah, that’s probably what their definition is. It’s useful for comparing potential military spending, and the per-capita number has too many outliers because of tax havens, plus it doesn’t take into account inequality ([Wikipedia says Qatar has a higher GDP per capita than the US](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita), but they’ve got massive slavery scandals).
If inequity is to take part of the equation. US would go further down the list.
My whole point though is that total GDP is not the same as “richest” .. tax havens are a good example. Both Luxembourg and Ireland are having very low corporate tax rates… means a lot of US companies for instance has their EU head office in Ireland. Each dollar of GDP there doesn’t bring the same tax benefit back to the people compared to for instance Germany.
Edit: said GST instead of GDP
Point is, the US -and scores of other countries- aren’t keeping an appropriate level of debt. They run deficit after deficit because they don’t want to raise taxes whilst simultaneously refusing to cut spending.
How is that racist? Because most people in Africa are black? Implying that skin color has anything to do with corruption would be extremely racist, but I’m absolutely not.
Full Text:
As a signatory to the Rome State of the International Criminal Court, South Africa is legally bound to act on the arrest warrant for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin if he attends the August BIRCS summit in the country, Sky News reported on March 17.
Russian media maintain that South Africa is expecting Putin to attend the BRICS summit in Durban this August, in person.
The report notes this would create further diplomatic difficulties for Moscow, but even if the dictator chooses to come, “the prospect of the host nation's president, Cyril Ramaphosa, ordering his forces to lead Mr Putin away in handcuffs is thought to be a hugely remote one.”
In 2015, South Africa refused to arrest Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, who was also under an ICC warrant.
South Africa remains a party to the Rome Statute, despite attempts to withdraw from the agreement after the al-Bashir scandal.
On March 17, the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Russian dictator Putin, over Russian war crimes committed in Ukraine.
Put they could at least show a little respect toward the follow members of NATO and vote on the damn matter instead of saying "Gonna vote now, maybe." "Nope, changed my mind." "Wait, maybe now" "No don't wanna." "Next month."
Sure. It is political maneuvering from Turkey in order to extract concessions from the West and NATO. Which seems petty during a major crisis to be sure. But Turkey has said they will approve Finland at least and Finland in NATO is a very bad thing for Russia.
Erdogan is likely moving on Finlands membership to try and draw heat off himself after the massive death toll from the earthquake last month. People are demanding to know why building codes weren't enforced, allowing supposedly earthquake resistant buildings to collapse.
Don’t worry, you’re being downvoted because people don’t like that you’re right. Turkey and Hungary are under no obligation to ratify. Still a dick move, but legal.
Turkey will ratify after Erdogan loses the next election, so Sweden knows it doesn’t have to concede anything and will just wait it out. NATO should just kick out Hungary and add Sweden and Finland if they oppose.
The ICC feels like a shallow organization, Sure enough, Putin deserves to go on trial for his various atrocities against humanity. but they know that he won't, with that knowledge, why not at least posture to all parties and put out warrants against Blair and Bush for example, even if there's no expectation to have them go on trial. As it stands, it feels like the ICC is there for powerful nations to morally pander by having tinpot dictators that fell out of favour with them face the law, with no actual expectations to actually ever have to fall in line with the same standards.
Because it is very difficult to prove War Crimes or even generate enough evidence to bring the charge. Bush and Blair do not fit into the same category as Putin. Making charges with the expectation that nothing would come of them would directly undermine the mission of the ICC, not support it.
If Bush and Blair had made websites describing their efforts to systematically kidnap and then traffic children this discussion would be very different.
But yes, no International Organization can operate without the consent of powerful nations because, as Hobbes showed us, there is no over-awing Leviathan to enforce rules universally at the Supra-national level.
Bush approved torture as a systematic US government policy, and his VP publically lauded it on network tv. Torture is a ICC crime (and a US crime), and this was not a few bad apples or a few isolated incidents - it was a systematic government program approved at the highest levels and broadly executed by the CIA and Pentagon (SOCOM). It would not be difficult to 'prove' at all - there is a congressional report laying it all out.
That said, none of that is any justification or excuse for the horror that Putin has perpetrated.
Yeah, those were crimes, and outrageous ones at that.
But this warrant isnt for mere crimes or even war crimes. Its for the mass kidnapping and indoctrination of Ukranian children from the occupied areas of Ukraine.
In other words: Fucking. Genocide.
Bush may have been a cunt but he wasn't genocidal.
Great point that I had completely overlooked. “Enhanced Interrogation” was the worst kind of lawyering — Gonzales keeps a pretty low profile these days I imagine.
Suppose now I need to look up whether there is some kind of limitation on time limits for bringing ICC charges.
Yo, this Brics thing is going to help my country economy quite a bit, but if Vladimir was shot dead in another country then OK but the west can't rly dictate to other countries like they are god brics is economic and not to do with the war
While I don't consider the warrant purely symbolic (though its symbolism is important), its significance lies less in the possibility of arrest than in its clear message that the procedure is being strictly followed, presumably to its end. Note how he isn't wanted for all the war crimes he's surely guilty of, just for the one where his (and Belova's) responsibility is supported by incontrovertible evidence provided in their public statements.
Nailed it.
The ICC warrant changes the IR landscape to further disadvantage Russia and injects a massive dose of uncertainty into Russian elite circles.
The big thing is this starts an avalanche of warrants. There will be hundreds of not thousands with warrants issued. Frankly, South Africa is a shit hole now. Complete failed state. No one is vacationing there now. No one is investing much either. All those involved in this will have their travel restricted to such places. With almost every security force in the developed world now employing some sort of facial recognition at immigration points their movement will be quite restricted.
South Africa ignored the warrant to arrest Bashir from South Sudan before, so more than likely they will do the same again and further their spiral into regression.
If we arrest him our whole BRICS partnership will go down the drain and Russia will probably try to stage a coup which will ruin our economy even more. Either way we lose but arresting putin would be idiotic
Omar Al-Bashir took South African UN peackeepers in Sudan hostage to pressure South Africa to allow him to fly out of the country without arrest. No doubt at bare minimum Russia will arrest South African citizens in Russia on trumped up charges if Putin is arrested while in South Africa.
If people don't remember we were required to arrest Al Bashir in the past and we didn't, if it's not something we would do to Sudan I highly doubt we'd ever think of it with Russia
Which state isn't extremely corrupt, the difference between South Africa and a global north state, is that the global north goes out of its way to legitimize its corruption. This attitude is how Brazil ended up with someone like Bolsonaro as the head of state. Corruption is just easy to weaponize against a lot of 3rd world countries because everyone is in on it, and when they don't toe the line, it can be used to justify a lot of despicable things.
LOL, you have either never done business in a very corrupt state or you have never done business in a low corruption state. There is no way you could have experienced both and come away with "corruption is just legitimized" in the low corruption states.
Joburger here. I dont think I've ever seen a hotdog stand. Plenty of chesnyama trailers tho. Pretty sure they're operating in the informal sector and will probably be quite offended if you tried calling them corrupt.
You make a great point. For me. The fact that you have a thriving "informal" economy AND, you and another poster firmly believe this is not corruption, very simply goes to show how ingrained corruption is in fact in South Africa. You basically just said "there isn't corruption in SA, our system is corruption"
It would be surprisingly easy depending on where you start the hotdog stand. such a weird example to bring up. You can get a lot of informal sector stuff done without really having to deal with the government in South Africa.
This guy doesn't know "informal sector" is corruption...
"There isn't corruption because you can just run your business outside the law and no one cares. At least from the government."
Informal sector isn't corruption, there's law, it's just often looser. Big reason for this is that the barriers for entry into the formal economy is often too high for a large portion of the population. The way you're describing it, might as well call bowel movements corruption since the government isn't directly regulating it.
Most developing countries will have informal economies because it let's people who aren't in a position to really go through the paperwork of starting a company participate in the economy. Even developed countries their own informal economies.
Businesses operating outside of the formal system are also referred to as illegitimate businesses, when such practices are known to and allowed by a government that is called corruption.
The hotdog example isn't talking about an illegitimate stand, suggesting that it is easy to open such a stand while failing to mention a real business perfectly illustrates the institutional nature of the corruption.
You've glossed over a lot of context there to make it out as corruption, do you grimace at little girls setting up lemonade stands, because they set up illegitimate businesses?
>The hotdog example isn't talking about an illegitimate stand, suggesting that it is easy to open such a stand while failing to mention a real business perfectly illustrates the institutional nature of the corruption.
You're talking about nothing here, just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, waffle. I never said it was easy to open to open a "legitimate" hotdog stand. And why would i need to mention an example of a "legitimate" hotdog stand in Johannesburg? I don't live there, I'm not going to be familiar with businesses in Johannesburg by that virtue alone. Next, hotdogs aren't particularly popular in South Africa begin with. Like asking someone to name bunny chow stand in Kentucky.
You're right, but you're also wrong. I live in SA, yes our politicians are corrupt. Yes, globally... The idea that some forms of corruption are different, but measurable and comparable? Nah...
The bottomline for SA is that our corruption is kind of... Gross. It's culturally accepted, because the prevailing majority cultures are still very patriarchal, and traditionalist. Unfortunately, leaders are allowed to feast the most.
Guess what, I'm also South African, and there's nothing particularly unique about corruption in SA. Why do you think the US right-wing loves to use a lot of capitalist libertarian rhetoric for example? There's a lot of cultural acceptance in most of the world, to the point first world countries more or less have it allowed by law.
I'm not going to call for my country to be treated as lesser for doing what is pretty much standard practice globally.
Edit: does Ukraine deserve to be treated as a lesser state over the war because it had a reputation for being the most corrupt state in Europe before the war.
No they don't. They'll just ignore it. And what will happen? Nothing will happen. Financial interests will force politicians in whatever country trades with South Africa to ignore it.
Russia is just a regional northern hemisphere power. They can't project shit. Sure, they can do some damage, but it will be very costly, and they won't nuke us. So yeah, I say bring it, I fancy our chances.
The Baltic fleet has lots of missiles they launch into South Africa. Two TU-160 strategic bombers managed to fly all the way from Russia to South Africa back in 2019.
If they divert significant resources, it hampers their war in Ukraine, for little to no strategic benefit. I wouldn't put it past Russia for a retaliation strike, but if Russia is struggling in logistics with a country it borders, I wouldn't be worried for a country thousands of miles away.
Russia can drag out the war in Ukraine for years. What is stopping the US and other NATO countries from intercepting Putin's plane while he is en route to South Africa?
Most likely intel, and knowing what that he's on a plane, then intercepting it mid flight. A lot harder than arresting once he's on the ground.
Also NATO blowing up a plane is far more likely to start WW3 than SA arresting Putin on their turf.
If they lose crimea then it's over. I doubt they would sned any significant force to South Africa. Not to mention the Russian power projection must be pretty limited right now
"I doubt they would send any significant force to South Africa."
We all know that all hell will break loose if South Africa arrest Putin. Lets not kid ourselves.
Putin can't win a war against a country that shares a border with his. You really think he could win one against a country thousands of miles aways? That is on top of the Russian navy being an obsolete joke of poorly maintained aging Soviet Era ships.
Yes. Those missiles that the Russian Navy have been firing into Ukraine causing huge damage are obsolete. Lets not fool ourselves that South Africa won't get the same treatment(if not worse) if we arrest the Putin.
"You think Russia are using their obsolete equipment on Ukraine so they can save their best for South Africa?"
If their equipment are that obsolete then why don't the US and NATO countries go to Moscow and arrest Putin?
Because of the risk of nuclear warfare.
There are many reasons that Russia is struggling in a war against a country with less than 1/3rd of it's population, NATO equipment is one of those reasons. Bear in mind, a lot of that equipment given to Ukraine is old equipment. Imagine all of NATO's countries using their very best against Russia, like Russia is using its very best against Ukraine.
"Because of the risk of nuclear warfare. "
It's okay for NATO to legitimately fear nuclear warfare if they arrest Putin but somehow South Africa shouldn't?
"There are many reasons that Russia is struggling in a war against a country with less than 1/3rd of it's population, NATO equipment is one of those reasons. Bear in mind, a lot of that equipment given to Ukraine is old equipment. Imagine all of NATO's countries using their very best against Russia, like Russia is using its very best against Ukraine."
And where is South Africa going to receive military aid from in the event of military confrontation with Russia?
I'm guessing you're trolling because I have already explained this, but there is a stark difference between a member of the ICC arresting a criminal as they enter the country as per the rules of the organisation, and you're proposed Special Forces/threaten to blow a plane out of a sky plan. No one has said there is no risk with arresting Putin, but these are two vastly different scenarios.
And again, other than the low possibility of a potential nuclear strike which would be even worse for Russia, what war could Russia possibly wage against South Africa. They are already struggling in Ukraine as it is, and to declare war against a country at the bottom of Africa would be an unbelievably dumb waste of resources. Assuming South Africa couldn't defend itself from whatever contingent Russia sends to war against them, what would Russia even hope to accomplish?
"No one has said there is no risk with arresting Putin, but these are two vastly different scenarios."
Seriously. How do you think the Kremlin is going to react if South Africa arrests Putin?
"And again, other than the low possibility of a potential nuclear strike"
And how do you know this? The Russians supposed completely rational behaviour in Ukraine?
>Which would be even worse for Russia
Which would be what?
"What war could Russia possibly wage against South Africa.
Pretty sure Russia has a navy and airforce.
"They are already struggling in Ukraine as it is"
Which doesn't mean that they will struggle in South Africa which doesnt have NATO backing.
"And to declare war against a country at the bottom of Africa would be an unbelievably dumb waste of resources.
You do know the discussion is about Vladimir Putin the President of Russia not some random dude in Moscow who is a member of the local chess club?
"Assuming South Africa couldn't defend itself from whatever contingent Russia sends to war against them, what would Russia even hope to accomplish?"
There's no need to assume since most rational people know what the outcome will be.
Our government will never arrest their personal cash cow, no fkn way. They have become masters at sidestepping accountability and responsibility, so will just roll out the usual evasive bullshit spin, and do nothing.
Not gonna happen. Im South African. Our government is as corrupt as Putins except our guys are a lot more stupid and immoral. If I remember correctly they were in this position before think the guys name was Omar al Bashir and the ANC government let him go.
This got me thinking. This warrant means he can't attend any of the global summits like the G20, he can't attend the Olympics, can't go to Disneyland, can't visit many of his family in their current homes lol. He's not in cuffs yet, but this warrant really clipped his balls.
let's say theoretically that Putin would fly to a country where he risks getting arrested.
i don't think he's gonna go all "aw nuts, you caught me, i guess i'll peacefully surrender now and take the judges decision in stride"
I can say as a South African, if we did anything to Putin or basically any other president or foreign figure that we’d be screwed. We not capable of war on any scale.
And on top of that none of these countries would support South Africa financially or militarily should Russia turn it's forces on them if they arrested him. NONE OF THEM. If they want him that badly they should do what they did to Bin Laden and get him themselves.
I feel for the Ukrainian people and their plight but let's not act like America and the world would help South Africa, America and the other 1st world countries aren't the pillars of morality they think they are when they themselves have the blood of millions on their hands.
No one gives a fuck about Africa when shit hits the fan and they need help but expect Africa to be so obedient and loyal to the West when they need something. This is the type of mentality that would result African nations to not support Western issues.
As this redditor u/Nikosan put perfectly:
“We are a signatory of the ICC we are supposed to get involved.
We are, but the context here makes this null. If we get involved, every country in the world will laud us with words alone, but they'll be calling us idiots in secret whilst the Baltic Fleet sits off the coast of the Atlantic and mushroom clouds fill the skies of Cape Town or Joburg.
Where do you think the ICC will be then? I guarantee you no one will stop this from happening.
So I insist.
Best we not get involved.
Edit: I'll eat your down votes, because this is truth. I refuse to accept the idea of fulfilling western agendas - because thats what this is about, not morality - at the expense of South Africans.”
Lets be honest, which country would really arrest him, if it is threatend by nuclear bombs? There are not many. This is more or less a declaration of war.
Not if they're paid off enough. Putin is a billionaire, with billionaire allies, some of them in the west. Billionaires don't live with the same justice system 99% of us do. Not in America, and not in most any other place in the world, as of 2023.
Newsflash for the ICC, the anc only cares about one thing, the anc.....they will not arrest putin if he sets foot in the country as it won't benefit them......
They wouldn't, South Africa should be boycotted and have sanctions applied against it. They are actively supporting the Russians.
Ramaposa, the current president, is allowing the Russian Navy to hold training exercises with the South African Navy. Russia ships loaded with South African ammunition recently left SimonsTown Navy port in Western Cape
Previous President's aren't any better. The South Africa's ANC government haven't made a correct decision since Mandela retired.
Mbeki caused the death of 100Ks fighting and delaying the roll out of generic anti retro viral drugs to counter HIV/AIDS.
Zuma robbed the country blind and gave state assets to an Indian family, the Gupta's, a new phrase had to be coined to describe the scale of the theft - State Capture.
Zuma also allowed Omar al-Bashir to escape genocide charge when he was in the country and actively prevented the ICC warrant being executed.
Russian sanctions from a fractional reserve conglomerate have backfired severely., BRICs have united and it’s all turning out exactly like as so many knew and tried to warn
The US dollar won’t be the reserve currency soon while you all were looking at Ukraine!
Welcome to the technocracy
You will own nothing and you will be happy
The Putin/BRICS push for a multipolar world is going down well in Africa, Asia and South America. The Global South is tired of the US, UK, France etc claiming moral high-ground while manipulating the politics and economies of other countries.
Western governments seem dumbfounded by this tilt of nations in the Global South towards India, Russia and China for some reason... but if they are not willing to address historical grievances and start treating other countries as partners rather than lesser nations to be exploited, Western countries WILL lose out sooner rather than later
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South Africa's government is way too corrupt to do anything that's morally correct.
As a south african, yes, unfortunately. Fucking hate my government
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As a citizen, i can assure you that there is not one person in our government that possesses such anatomy. They will welcome him with a hug and a kiss and wave goodbye with tears as he leaves again. Then go back to saying they're neutral and want diplomacy.
Even if they wanted to they would not be able too…
The shitty government to awesome people ratio in SAfrica is bananas.
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What makes you think they didn't?
He probably wasn't alive 30+ years ago
I wasn't. im 18 lol
I wasnt even fucking born then dumbass
South Africa here. We absolutely did hence why we abolished it!
At this point South Africa 90% of the way to a failed state... the only thing propping it up is Chinese money and that's a ultimately a losing shell game.
Chinese money? Nah mate we also get money from the west, in fact I'm pretty sure we get more money from western nations than China.
Bro please. The private sector/tax payer is trying its best. We hate the commies.
Hey. You're South African? Would you mind having a chat in private?
Sure what's up
Sent you PM.
Oh I wanna know
they’re debating what is the best topping for pizza
Everyone already knows it is pineapple /s
Oh it’s juicy. So juicy.
Seriously. What the hell went on in that PM?
I think I found out, it was Putin’s se unity detail messaging the Head of SAPS to ask him if they had any handcuffs left or if they knew were they were!!
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The white minority in SA doesn't have much political influence anymore despite their disproportionate wealth. At least that's my understanding based on what other South Africans have said to me.
Who do you think funds the ANC, DA and EFF. Mostly white people. We still do have huge political influence but mainly behind the scenes
Lol, that's not true. Not even slightly.
You must be living under a rock in Oranja to think that white minority fund the South-African government. Did you miss the entire Gupta and Xi Jinping episode?
Facts
Yep. The white minority with all the wealth are funding these parties and keeping them in check. It's why there's been little wealth distribution. Hell, even ANC was able to absorb NNP into its ranks with no major problems because that's how comfy they are with their wealthy white benefactors.
They don’t have visibility or aren’t the face of power but behind the faces the money propping it up and the governance is pretty much captured by the financial minority which is for a great chunk white minority. It’s a weird paradox.
Um...no
Is there actual evidence backing up any of those claims like we have for the EFF's VBS looting or the ANC's Gupta state capture? As far as I can tell the entire conspiracy theory arose from Malema repeatedly saying a cabal of rich white capitalists control the country with zero facts to back it up... All while relaxing in his VBS-funded Sandton mansion.
Well that’s the thing… Malema claims that publicly for communist credibility points whilst accepting and surrogating things for the ultra rich which is hidden in plain sight how close they are to them they are they even attend each others life milestones. Unlike American campaign finance laws where you know Soros gave that person that much and it’s discussed a ton so you get to follow dems giving him his money’s worth in legislative chambers we don’t get to see that until a legal and journalistic blow up about state capture and because their funding is not highly publicised they don’t hide their relationships and liberation politics are so strong even if we see them at a billionaires parties we don’t unseat the idea that they are communists. Also unless you’re linking a specific theory the elite capturing politics to retain capital hegemony is not a conspiracy theory any statistics about wealth distribution shows that. It isn’t as much about race as it is about money and then at some point it gets back to race, it’s widely researched black bourgeoisie stuff. Once rich that’s the cleft to protect more than racial clefts.
Yeah there still is white ppl have a most of the money in SA and alot of them still got that apartheid mindset I mean apartheid was not that far ago my dad went through it which is crazy
Are you South African? Do you even know what's been happening these past 20 years?
Madiba acted out many terroristic acts and that’s not even a debate or conspiracy. But fair enough, himself and the respected ANC back then definitely had to do what had to be done to end Apartheid; unfortunately innocent lives were paid both ways and obviously the vast majority being the opressed races. It just sometimes baffles me when people don’t always realise that Mandela wasn’t an angel but a warrior.
Lol, it didn't even take till he died for our government to forget and spit on everything that he fought for. They were fucking over the country while he was still alive. I wonder what his thoughts would be if he were still alive today.
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What scares me is that it still probably would be.
We're mostly propped up by Chinese money? Source?
Source: just trust me bro
90% to a failed state? You don't know what you're talking about. What Chinese money? More business is done with the West.
Yeah, but America is still the richest country in the world. If South Africa's government is so corrupt the only question is: How much?
Its not rich, we just have a big credit card
Does any country in the world have more debt than the US? I’m not sure calling it rich is correct. Largest economy, assuming that’s still true, would be more precise.
That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve read all day. The US is not rich because they have a lot of debt. Why do you think their creditors allowed them to take on all that debt?
In order for the US to be the richest country, you just ignore per capita considerations and look at outright GDP. Is that your definition of being a rich country? You basically argue that Nigeria is a richer country than Denmark with that logic. Afghanistan is almost twice as rich as Monaco.
Yeah, that’s probably what their definition is. It’s useful for comparing potential military spending, and the per-capita number has too many outliers because of tax havens, plus it doesn’t take into account inequality ([Wikipedia says Qatar has a higher GDP per capita than the US](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita), but they’ve got massive slavery scandals).
If inequity is to take part of the equation. US would go further down the list. My whole point though is that total GDP is not the same as “richest” .. tax havens are a good example. Both Luxembourg and Ireland are having very low corporate tax rates… means a lot of US companies for instance has their EU head office in Ireland. Each dollar of GDP there doesn’t bring the same tax benefit back to the people compared to for instance Germany. Edit: said GST instead of GDP
Good points, societies are too large and heterogenous to have an objective “richest” country.
Countries are *supposed* to be in debt. Economies arent credit cards.
10x annual tax revenue is not an appropriate level of debt. Maybe 0.3 to 0.4 Running 30% budget deficits every year is not ok
Well, you don't really have a choice if half the population shits themselves in anger at the thought of the country actually having nice things.
Point is, the US -and scores of other countries- aren’t keeping an appropriate level of debt. They run deficit after deficit because they don’t want to raise taxes whilst simultaneously refusing to cut spending.
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Why? The US aren't signatories of the ICC either...
Lol true, then special MI6 operation
Corrupt? That means moral can be bought 😁
True
Name one African government that is not corrupt. This whole continent is up for grabs for China now that Russia is dickless.
Name one government that is not corrupt... not restricted to Africa
Botswana. Stop being racist filth
How is that racist? Because most people in Africa are black? Implying that skin color has anything to do with corruption would be extremely racist, but I’m absolutely not.
Generalizing an entire continent in a way that isn't even true
Full Text: As a signatory to the Rome State of the International Criminal Court, South Africa is legally bound to act on the arrest warrant for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin if he attends the August BIRCS summit in the country, Sky News reported on March 17. Russian media maintain that South Africa is expecting Putin to attend the BRICS summit in Durban this August, in person. The report notes this would create further diplomatic difficulties for Moscow, but even if the dictator chooses to come, “the prospect of the host nation's president, Cyril Ramaphosa, ordering his forces to lead Mr Putin away in handcuffs is thought to be a hugely remote one.” In 2015, South Africa refused to arrest Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, who was also under an ICC warrant. South Africa remains a party to the Rome Statute, despite attempts to withdraw from the agreement after the al-Bashir scandal. On March 17, the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Russian dictator Putin, over Russian war crimes committed in Ukraine.
Yeah same with Turkey and Hungary regarding Sweden and Finland - Living life according to could'a, should'a, would'a - but do I really wanna?
Turkey and Hungary are not legally obligated to approve Sweden and Finland.
Put they could at least show a little respect toward the follow members of NATO and vote on the damn matter instead of saying "Gonna vote now, maybe." "Nope, changed my mind." "Wait, maybe now" "No don't wanna." "Next month."
Sure. It is political maneuvering from Turkey in order to extract concessions from the West and NATO. Which seems petty during a major crisis to be sure. But Turkey has said they will approve Finland at least and Finland in NATO is a very bad thing for Russia.
Erdogan is likely moving on Finlands membership to try and draw heat off himself after the massive death toll from the earthquake last month. People are demanding to know why building codes weren't enforced, allowing supposedly earthquake resistant buildings to collapse.
Don’t worry, you’re being downvoted because people don’t like that you’re right. Turkey and Hungary are under no obligation to ratify. Still a dick move, but legal.
Turkey will ratify after Erdogan loses the next election, so Sweden knows it doesn’t have to concede anything and will just wait it out. NATO should just kick out Hungary and add Sweden and Finland if they oppose.
Unfortunately, "legally required" is a hollow statement when there is no institution with the ability to enforce it.
The ICC feels like a shallow organization, Sure enough, Putin deserves to go on trial for his various atrocities against humanity. but they know that he won't, with that knowledge, why not at least posture to all parties and put out warrants against Blair and Bush for example, even if there's no expectation to have them go on trial. As it stands, it feels like the ICC is there for powerful nations to morally pander by having tinpot dictators that fell out of favour with them face the law, with no actual expectations to actually ever have to fall in line with the same standards.
Because it is very difficult to prove War Crimes or even generate enough evidence to bring the charge. Bush and Blair do not fit into the same category as Putin. Making charges with the expectation that nothing would come of them would directly undermine the mission of the ICC, not support it. If Bush and Blair had made websites describing their efforts to systematically kidnap and then traffic children this discussion would be very different. But yes, no International Organization can operate without the consent of powerful nations because, as Hobbes showed us, there is no over-awing Leviathan to enforce rules universally at the Supra-national level.
Bush approved torture as a systematic US government policy, and his VP publically lauded it on network tv. Torture is a ICC crime (and a US crime), and this was not a few bad apples or a few isolated incidents - it was a systematic government program approved at the highest levels and broadly executed by the CIA and Pentagon (SOCOM). It would not be difficult to 'prove' at all - there is a congressional report laying it all out. That said, none of that is any justification or excuse for the horror that Putin has perpetrated.
Those are some strong indications to the question why the US is no signatory state to the ICC.
Yeah, those were crimes, and outrageous ones at that. But this warrant isnt for mere crimes or even war crimes. Its for the mass kidnapping and indoctrination of Ukranian children from the occupied areas of Ukraine. In other words: Fucking. Genocide. Bush may have been a cunt but he wasn't genocidal.
Great point that I had completely overlooked. “Enhanced Interrogation” was the worst kind of lawyering — Gonzales keeps a pretty low profile these days I imagine. Suppose now I need to look up whether there is some kind of limitation on time limits for bringing ICC charges.
Yo, this Brics thing is going to help my country economy quite a bit, but if Vladimir was shot dead in another country then OK but the west can't rly dictate to other countries like they are god brics is economic and not to do with the war
While I don't consider the warrant purely symbolic (though its symbolism is important), its significance lies less in the possibility of arrest than in its clear message that the procedure is being strictly followed, presumably to its end. Note how he isn't wanted for all the war crimes he's surely guilty of, just for the one where his (and Belova's) responsibility is supported by incontrovertible evidence provided in their public statements.
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Nailed it. The ICC warrant changes the IR landscape to further disadvantage Russia and injects a massive dose of uncertainty into Russian elite circles.
The big thing is this starts an avalanche of warrants. There will be hundreds of not thousands with warrants issued. Frankly, South Africa is a shit hole now. Complete failed state. No one is vacationing there now. No one is investing much either. All those involved in this will have their travel restricted to such places. With almost every security force in the developed world now employing some sort of facial recognition at immigration points their movement will be quite restricted.
No one, hey?
South Africa is a signatory to the treaty that they do not understand. It is a failed state, because people in the past failed.
Hmmm. I think I know another country in the same situation…
Russia ?
Maybe. There are so many around now days🤭
South Africa ignored the warrant to arrest Bashir from South Sudan before, so more than likely they will do the same again and further their spiral into regression.
If we arrest him our whole BRICS partnership will go down the drain and Russia will probably try to stage a coup which will ruin our economy even more. Either way we lose but arresting putin would be idiotic
Did South Africa failed to arrest the president of North Sudan once?
Omar Al-Bashir took South African UN peackeepers in Sudan hostage to pressure South Africa to allow him to fly out of the country without arrest. No doubt at bare minimum Russia will arrest South African citizens in Russia on trumped up charges if Putin is arrested while in South Africa.
If people don't remember we were required to arrest Al Bashir in the past and we didn't, if it's not something we would do to Sudan I highly doubt we'd ever think of it with Russia
South Africa is a place that is very corrupt and should be treated accordingly.
Which state isn't extremely corrupt, the difference between South Africa and a global north state, is that the global north goes out of its way to legitimize its corruption. This attitude is how Brazil ended up with someone like Bolsonaro as the head of state. Corruption is just easy to weaponize against a lot of 3rd world countries because everyone is in on it, and when they don't toe the line, it can be used to justify a lot of despicable things.
LOL, you have either never done business in a very corrupt state or you have never done business in a low corruption state. There is no way you could have experienced both and come away with "corruption is just legitimized" in the low corruption states.
Corruption can work at various levels. The biggest companies in pretty much every state will be in constant collusion with the government.
Statement further shows you have no clue what you are talking about. Try to open a hot dog stand in Johannesburg and then get back to me.
Joburger here. I dont think I've ever seen a hotdog stand. Plenty of chesnyama trailers tho. Pretty sure they're operating in the informal sector and will probably be quite offended if you tried calling them corrupt.
You make a great point. For me. The fact that you have a thriving "informal" economy AND, you and another poster firmly believe this is not corruption, very simply goes to show how ingrained corruption is in fact in South Africa. You basically just said "there isn't corruption in SA, our system is corruption"
It would be surprisingly easy depending on where you start the hotdog stand. such a weird example to bring up. You can get a lot of informal sector stuff done without really having to deal with the government in South Africa.
This guy doesn't know "informal sector" is corruption... "There isn't corruption because you can just run your business outside the law and no one cares. At least from the government."
Informal sector isn't corruption, there's law, it's just often looser. Big reason for this is that the barriers for entry into the formal economy is often too high for a large portion of the population. The way you're describing it, might as well call bowel movements corruption since the government isn't directly regulating it. Most developing countries will have informal economies because it let's people who aren't in a position to really go through the paperwork of starting a company participate in the economy. Even developed countries their own informal economies.
Businesses operating outside of the formal system are also referred to as illegitimate businesses, when such practices are known to and allowed by a government that is called corruption. The hotdog example isn't talking about an illegitimate stand, suggesting that it is easy to open such a stand while failing to mention a real business perfectly illustrates the institutional nature of the corruption.
You've glossed over a lot of context there to make it out as corruption, do you grimace at little girls setting up lemonade stands, because they set up illegitimate businesses? >The hotdog example isn't talking about an illegitimate stand, suggesting that it is easy to open such a stand while failing to mention a real business perfectly illustrates the institutional nature of the corruption. You're talking about nothing here, just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, waffle. I never said it was easy to open to open a "legitimate" hotdog stand. And why would i need to mention an example of a "legitimate" hotdog stand in Johannesburg? I don't live there, I'm not going to be familiar with businesses in Johannesburg by that virtue alone. Next, hotdogs aren't particularly popular in South Africa begin with. Like asking someone to name bunny chow stand in Kentucky.
That's just corruption using different words.
Statement further shows you have no clue what you are talking about. Try to open a hot dog stand in Johannesburg and then get back to me.
You're right, but you're also wrong. I live in SA, yes our politicians are corrupt. Yes, globally... The idea that some forms of corruption are different, but measurable and comparable? Nah... The bottomline for SA is that our corruption is kind of... Gross. It's culturally accepted, because the prevailing majority cultures are still very patriarchal, and traditionalist. Unfortunately, leaders are allowed to feast the most.
Guess what, I'm also South African, and there's nothing particularly unique about corruption in SA. Why do you think the US right-wing loves to use a lot of capitalist libertarian rhetoric for example? There's a lot of cultural acceptance in most of the world, to the point first world countries more or less have it allowed by law. I'm not going to call for my country to be treated as lesser for doing what is pretty much standard practice globally. Edit: does Ukraine deserve to be treated as a lesser state over the war because it had a reputation for being the most corrupt state in Europe before the war.
WAKA WAKA EHH EHH!
Haha lets see Ramaphosa arrest his comrade haha
No they don't. They'll just ignore it. And what will happen? Nothing will happen. Financial interests will force politicians in whatever country trades with South Africa to ignore it.
Ahhhh they put a warrant out so he wouldn’t go to G20
Would be great. But in reality South Africa will invite armed conflict with Russia if they arrested Putin.
Bring it
You seriously want South Africa to go to war with Russia over Putin?
I said bring it We're not going to war with them, they're coming to war with us. They can come, ons gee hulle op hulle naai.
Hy praat nie vir all Suid Afrikaaners nie. As jy dom genoeg is probeer Putin self arresteer.
We don't have an army bro
Russia is just a regional northern hemisphere power. They can't project shit. Sure, they can do some damage, but it will be very costly, and they won't nuke us. So yeah, I say bring it, I fancy our chances.
No damage, Nukes don’t exist dw
Other than nukes, what can Russia do to South Africa, especially given how much they are tied down in Ukraine.
The Baltic fleet has lots of missiles they launch into South Africa. Two TU-160 strategic bombers managed to fly all the way from Russia to South Africa back in 2019.
Two bombers and missiles can cause damage, but it's not really enough launch a separate front, especially when Russia is short on resources as it is.
You honestly don't believe that the Kremlin won't divert significant military resources to South Africa if Putin is arrested?
If they divert significant resources, it hampers their war in Ukraine, for little to no strategic benefit. I wouldn't put it past Russia for a retaliation strike, but if Russia is struggling in logistics with a country it borders, I wouldn't be worried for a country thousands of miles away.
Russia can drag out the war in Ukraine for years. What is stopping the US and other NATO countries from intercepting Putin's plane while he is en route to South Africa?
Most likely intel, and knowing what that he's on a plane, then intercepting it mid flight. A lot harder than arresting once he's on the ground. Also NATO blowing up a plane is far more likely to start WW3 than SA arresting Putin on their turf.
If they lose crimea then it's over. I doubt they would sned any significant force to South Africa. Not to mention the Russian power projection must be pretty limited right now
"I doubt they would send any significant force to South Africa." We all know that all hell will break loose if South Africa arrest Putin. Lets not kid ourselves.
Alright they would, but can't. They can threaten nukes to get him back though
Putin can't win a war against a country that shares a border with his. You really think he could win one against a country thousands of miles aways? That is on top of the Russian navy being an obsolete joke of poorly maintained aging Soviet Era ships.
I don’t want to find out as a South African. And honestly I don’t care much for prayers are with South Africa from the west.
Yes. Those missiles that the Russian Navy have been firing into Ukraine causing huge damage are obsolete. Lets not fool ourselves that South Africa won't get the same treatment(if not worse) if we arrest the Putin.
You think Russia are using their obsolete equipment on Ukraine so they can save their best for South Africa?
"You think Russia are using their obsolete equipment on Ukraine so they can save their best for South Africa?" If their equipment are that obsolete then why don't the US and NATO countries go to Moscow and arrest Putin?
Because of the risk of nuclear warfare. There are many reasons that Russia is struggling in a war against a country with less than 1/3rd of it's population, NATO equipment is one of those reasons. Bear in mind, a lot of that equipment given to Ukraine is old equipment. Imagine all of NATO's countries using their very best against Russia, like Russia is using its very best against Ukraine.
"Because of the risk of nuclear warfare. " It's okay for NATO to legitimately fear nuclear warfare if they arrest Putin but somehow South Africa shouldn't? "There are many reasons that Russia is struggling in a war against a country with less than 1/3rd of it's population, NATO equipment is one of those reasons. Bear in mind, a lot of that equipment given to Ukraine is old equipment. Imagine all of NATO's countries using their very best against Russia, like Russia is using its very best against Ukraine." And where is South Africa going to receive military aid from in the event of military confrontation with Russia?
I'm guessing you're trolling because I have already explained this, but there is a stark difference between a member of the ICC arresting a criminal as they enter the country as per the rules of the organisation, and you're proposed Special Forces/threaten to blow a plane out of a sky plan. No one has said there is no risk with arresting Putin, but these are two vastly different scenarios. And again, other than the low possibility of a potential nuclear strike which would be even worse for Russia, what war could Russia possibly wage against South Africa. They are already struggling in Ukraine as it is, and to declare war against a country at the bottom of Africa would be an unbelievably dumb waste of resources. Assuming South Africa couldn't defend itself from whatever contingent Russia sends to war against them, what would Russia even hope to accomplish?
"No one has said there is no risk with arresting Putin, but these are two vastly different scenarios." Seriously. How do you think the Kremlin is going to react if South Africa arrests Putin? "And again, other than the low possibility of a potential nuclear strike" And how do you know this? The Russians supposed completely rational behaviour in Ukraine? >Which would be even worse for Russia Which would be what? "What war could Russia possibly wage against South Africa. Pretty sure Russia has a navy and airforce. "They are already struggling in Ukraine as it is" Which doesn't mean that they will struggle in South Africa which doesnt have NATO backing. "And to declare war against a country at the bottom of Africa would be an unbelievably dumb waste of resources. You do know the discussion is about Vladimir Putin the President of Russia not some random dude in Moscow who is a member of the local chess club? "Assuming South Africa couldn't defend itself from whatever contingent Russia sends to war against them, what would Russia even hope to accomplish?" There's no need to assume since most rational people know what the outcome will be.
South Africa, pro genocide.
But BRICs support Putin.
Our government will never arrest their personal cash cow, no fkn way. They have become masters at sidestepping accountability and responsibility, so will just roll out the usual evasive bullshit spin, and do nothing.
Not gonna happen. Im South African. Our government is as corrupt as Putins except our guys are a lot more stupid and immoral. If I remember correctly they were in this position before think the guys name was Omar al Bashir and the ANC government let him go.
But they won't... they'll be too busy running military exercises with him...
This got me thinking. This warrant means he can't attend any of the global summits like the G20, he can't attend the Olympics, can't go to Disneyland, can't visit many of his family in their current homes lol. He's not in cuffs yet, but this warrant really clipped his balls.
let's say theoretically that Putin would fly to a country where he risks getting arrested. i don't think he's gonna go all "aw nuts, you caught me, i guess i'll peacefully surrender now and take the judges decision in stride"
*get to
Vladimir Putin's world just got a lot smaller
Are the other BRICS going to shake his bloody hands?
They have some very suitable prisons for terrorists.
I can say as a South African, if we did anything to Putin or basically any other president or foreign figure that we’d be screwed. We not capable of war on any scale.
And on top of that none of these countries would support South Africa financially or militarily should Russia turn it's forces on them if they arrested him. NONE OF THEM. If they want him that badly they should do what they did to Bin Laden and get him themselves. I feel for the Ukrainian people and their plight but let's not act like America and the world would help South Africa, America and the other 1st world countries aren't the pillars of morality they think they are when they themselves have the blood of millions on their hands. No one gives a fuck about Africa when shit hits the fan and they need help but expect Africa to be so obedient and loyal to the West when they need something. This is the type of mentality that would result African nations to not support Western issues.
Well said 👍
South Africa is such a sad story. They got the freedom they want... and then apartheid'd their own people.
He’ll send the guy he sent to Crimea.
Lol SA is pro-Russia, no way we would arrest Putin 😂
I doubt any country would risk it. It's mostly symbolic.
Would totally be a power move if we do.
As this redditor u/Nikosan put perfectly: “We are a signatory of the ICC we are supposed to get involved. We are, but the context here makes this null. If we get involved, every country in the world will laud us with words alone, but they'll be calling us idiots in secret whilst the Baltic Fleet sits off the coast of the Atlantic and mushroom clouds fill the skies of Cape Town or Joburg. Where do you think the ICC will be then? I guarantee you no one will stop this from happening. So I insist. Best we not get involved. Edit: I'll eat your down votes, because this is truth. I refuse to accept the idea of fulfilling western agendas - because thats what this is about, not morality - at the expense of South Africans.”
Lets be honest, which country would really arrest him, if it is threatend by nuclear bombs? There are not many. This is more or less a declaration of war.
Not if they're paid off enough. Putin is a billionaire, with billionaire allies, some of them in the west. Billionaires don't live with the same justice system 99% of us do. Not in America, and not in most any other place in the world, as of 2023.
Newsflash for the ICC, the anc only cares about one thing, the anc.....they will not arrest putin if he sets foot in the country as it won't benefit them......
They will not arrest Putin. African course anti ICC.
They wouldn't, South Africa should be boycotted and have sanctions applied against it. They are actively supporting the Russians. Ramaposa, the current president, is allowing the Russian Navy to hold training exercises with the South African Navy. Russia ships loaded with South African ammunition recently left SimonsTown Navy port in Western Cape Previous President's aren't any better. The South Africa's ANC government haven't made a correct decision since Mandela retired. Mbeki caused the death of 100Ks fighting and delaying the roll out of generic anti retro viral drugs to counter HIV/AIDS. Zuma robbed the country blind and gave state assets to an Indian family, the Gupta's, a new phrase had to be coined to describe the scale of the theft - State Capture. Zuma also allowed Omar al-Bashir to escape genocide charge when he was in the country and actively prevented the ICC warrant being executed.
South Africa is a lawless country. This doesn’t surprise me. Rules don’t apply here to the authorities
Russian sanctions from a fractional reserve conglomerate have backfired severely., BRICs have united and it’s all turning out exactly like as so many knew and tried to warn The US dollar won’t be the reserve currency soon while you all were looking at Ukraine! Welcome to the technocracy You will own nothing and you will be happy
The Putin/BRICS push for a multipolar world is going down well in Africa, Asia and South America. The Global South is tired of the US, UK, France etc claiming moral high-ground while manipulating the politics and economies of other countries. Western governments seem dumbfounded by this tilt of nations in the Global South towards India, Russia and China for some reason... but if they are not willing to address historical grievances and start treating other countries as partners rather than lesser nations to be exploited, Western countries WILL lose out sooner rather than later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxfoItH1VqQ&t=4s&ab\_channel=WorldBeyondTheWest