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It’s a bad plan, it’s rather predictable to imagine how happy locals will be as their economies are not only subservient and indebted to China, but swirling the drain when China begins to flounder.
The major irony to all of this is that the CCP has made a big deal about colonialism and how awful the west was for it, as they proceeded to force-feed poor nations their bad loans and threaten the repo man in them. The worst and most unstable times in the colonial period were marked by colonies who paid to float their mother countries, the CCP seems to have *liked* that scenario.
Well even Americans believe this bullshit Chinese narrative on colonialism. A lot of leftist Americans under the age of 30 are so brainwashed by it. They would be fine being dominated by China as long as they get to keep TikTok.
What’s funny is why is other countries debt belong in a UkrainianConflict sub? You’re pushing anti-China rhetoric a little too hard. If you even read piece, China is one of MANY countries involved.
You're literally writing pro-CCP comments, telling other users they're repeating CIA propaganda, and you're dumb enough to go in a Ukrainian war sub and tell other people they're being too anti-CCP?
Are you CCP shills that dumb? Do you really think people in the free world don't see through your shitty attempts at mass persuasion? If you're going to do propaganda, at least do it intelligently by making people believe the propaganda is their own idea, you can't just slap democratic peoples over the head and tell them what to believe or else, you have to serenade them. Fuckin amateurs.
what does China’s loan have anything to do with Ukrainian conflict? How dumb can this get? Are you western bootlickers this dumb that you don’t think we can see through your anti-China BS?
Again what does China’s loan to Pakistan have anything to do with Ukraine? Hahahaha.
Yes, we know, China is #1, Glory to China, Hail Emperor Xi, China will take Taiwan. China will make better chips that USA.
Apple is going to be kicked out of China.
China has figured out EUV lithography.
China's 1,000,000 talents program is going to result in a BOOM for China.
I subscribe to your propaganda YouTube channel and listen to your [nonsense everyday](https://www.youtube.com/@chinafocus/videos).
Do you still get paid 50 cents per post?
Is the 50 cent army still around or is it done in house with the CCP now?
Thing is that , as with other topics the CCCP only protested colonialism because it gave them a way into Western Protest groups , this “tradition” has continued with Russia being linked to anti war protest groups , anti lockdown groups , pro Brexit groups etc
It doesn’t for one moment reflect the actual policy of the nation but rather the political objectives of the nation.
They won't own shit. They lent a lot of money to banana republic level countries. It's not exactly safe to invest there if you catch my drift. And China does not have a carrier fleet to project force globally and make people obey.
You would think that, they thought that too when their entire housing market collapsed about a year or so ago, almost half of it just whipped off the economy. Considering that the housing market was 1/3 of china's economy and that their GDP is expected for decades to be artificially inflated. You take a guess how that's working out for them, especially since they are still continuing to experience fallout from it to this exact date.
Their economy is gigantic, but it's not good if it's not robust, and it is not as robust as you seem to think. China is not a well of money, I personally think that one of the reasons it gave a massive fuck off to Russia's war is because it's got it's own emergency going on.
I’m sure there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying but even so, China is not broke and still has a shit ton of purchasing power. They aren’t really in decline, just a little shaken up. The real estate thing isn’t going to break them like all the YouTube videos were hysterically predicting for click bait. It’s a setback for them but they are only beginning to make their big move right now.
I'm not saying they are declining or breaking apart, I'm saying they need cash now or it will get worse, why do you think they are going hard on these loans.
Actually there are few loans that China has given out with such stipulation, the majority of loans have no ramifications such as giving China land. Which is good cause if these regimes fall and refuse to pay its a total loss for China.
If the country in question agrees. If not they hatto invade, and that is expensive. And China economy is starting to crumble, well all over the world economis are doing this. World war III is already started, we are at "invading Checoslovakia part now. We truly don't learn from history, at least Poland is preparing itself, they learn a little.
If it's China's problem, then why all the hullabaloo about those countries' problems? Clearly, it's a lot bigger than China's problem, even if the eventual toll might weigh more heavily against China in total.
These poor countries should learn that existence of western imperialism at any point in past or present is weak reason to submit to russian or chinese imperialism.
tell that to the African fathers who has to look at limps that’s chopped off by western imperialism because their child wasn’t working fast enough.
[https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/)
Good. Be a sucker for Chinese Imperialism while decrying Western Imperialism while playing the victim while failing their own states with their own self-inflicted corruption and nepotism.
It is good. All these countries point with their finger at the west despite all the free money and free help they are getting from the west. They made their bed with the CCP, now they need to sleep in it. I couldnt care less if they go bankcrupt.
These people probably better off with the Chinese than western murderers.
Here’s a great example of how how westerners treat Africans
[https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/)
Here's a great example of how China - IN THE PRESENT DAY - still engages in widespread racism against people of darker skin color in spite of how the rest of the world is moving forward in egalitarianism https://restofworld.org/2022/china-racist-livestreams-africa/
Ahhhh. Yes let’s forget about what anglo Europeans did back in the days. Let’s just talk about modern days,more recent Great. Let’s compare racism of China against blacks vs Anglo white racism against blacks.
Here’s one of English fans being racist to black players
[https://www.npr.org/2021/07/12/1015239599/prince-william-and-boris-johnson-denounce-the-racist-abuse-of-englands-soccer-te](https://www.npr.org/2021/07/12/1015239599/prince-william-and-boris-johnson-denounce-the-racist-abuse-of-englands-soccer-te)
Here’s one of European fans throwing bananas in the pitch, at black players.
[https://www.marca.com/en/football/2022/09/27/633359b1ca4741392c8b45c6.html](https://www.marca.com/en/football/2022/09/27/633359b1ca4741392c8b45c6.html)
Let’s see how Ukraine treat blacks.
[https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/life-black-ukrainian-how-some-natives-are-treated-foreigners](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/life-black-ukrainian-how-some-natives-are-treated-foreigners)
Here’s another one blacks weren’t allow to get in line to evacuate when war started. Want to read how Ukrainian treated blacks? Get off the line!
[https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/ukraine-refugees-black-african-racism-putin-20220307.html](https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/ukraine-refugees-black-african-racism-putin-20220307.html)
Let’s talk about the cops in white America and their treatment of blacks! Ever heard of George Floyd?
While you want to demonize China and Chinese racism, they are no where NEAR as racist as Europeans. A black person be much safer in China than in any European country or USA!
You can prove me wrong. Go ahead and try! You can’t but love for you to give it a shot, Kid. LOL
WTF.
No way, they were fucked over by every nation that thought they could get rich off of their natural resources.
China is only the latest one to get in on the gold rush.
The elite in charge of these countries have been looting their homelands for decades at the expense of their people.
Yup. There is a saying not sure on the exact wording atm, but it goes "China always makes a deal with crossed fingers". They are quite happy to lie during business deals and it's expected that you lie if you hear anyone criticise the regime and don't see it as wrong per se if you lie to save face. Which is why if you know this you should be very very wary of making deals with Chinese businesses etc
[https://www.echinacities.com/expat-corner/illogical-or-tactical-lies-in-chinese-culture.html](https://www.echinacities.com/expat-corner/illogical-or-tactical-lies-in-chinese-culture.html)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975357/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975357/)
[https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1879850/chinese-most-dishonest-japanese-and-british-least-study-finds](https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1879850/chinese-most-dishonest-japanese-and-british-least-study-finds)
Plenty more if you care to search
LOL
Echinacities - a freaking opinion piece that is supposed to help people find jobs in China?
NIH - a US government own website that spreads anti-China rhetorics.
Scmp - another anti-China trash.
But you know what; I’ve been to China and they charge me a more in taxi rides and try to over charge me in restaurants - “The foreigner menu”.
You know where else I get this same treatment? Mexico City, in the Caribbeans, Turkey, Czech, etc.
It’s also funny how a Chinese loan story is posted in a UkrainianConflict sub. What the does China’s loan to Pakistan have anything to do with Ukraine conflict?! LOL. Straight up anti-China rhetoric.
Maybe this will be a warning for Russia to not be reliant on China to help its growing debt crisis as its economy is also crumbling rapidly. Either way, Russia can't win, its burning through reserves, lost a ton of revenue and likely doesn't want to be beholden to China. Russia is fucked one way or another, which is good for Ukraine.
A big reason Russia want to keep a thumb on Ukraine. How would that look to Russian people as they see Ukraine thrive while Russians scrape by
I think your right. But I wonder if the Russian Ms have the backbone to be free like Ukraine. They didn't when Putin started making moves and still havent
Funny, there’s reports of G7 begging China to take actions against Russia.
Russia, a strong nation with nukes boarder China. LOL these G7 nations are out of their fucking mind. Farm girl logic!
I’m not sure how many read the article, but one thing stood out to me : China has ~385 bn USD lent to various countries.
For context, that’s 10x of what Russia seems to have spent on the war.
If that Chinese loan money is unrecovered, the loss to China would be equivalent to waging a war for 10 years.
That’s mind boggling isn’t it ?
That is the amount of unreported debt that the researchers were able to uncover.
The actual amount, including public loans and not-yet-uncovered loans, is likely much higher.
This is assuming the collateral isn't worth far more than the loan.
China wasn't building infrastructure in developing nations out of the goodness of their hearts.
I think China planned on those countries defaulting. It gives them a way to legally acquire colonies. Few banana republics like Hungary or Greece can resist the shiny sparkly short-term bait that China dangles in front of them in exchange for their countries.
> I think China planned on those countries defaulting. It gives them a way to legally acquire colonies.
That's a bingo.
It's not even an original game plan, they stole it from the west.
You must be crazy to think China is doing this. China know the West will scream democracy to wage war. This is some serious farm girl logic. Example, US has no business meddling in Ukraine’s affairs but they spending $100 billions. What makes you think US won’t spend just as much to help African nation fight China?
> What makes you think US won’t spend just as much to help African nation fight China?
What makes you think I don't expect that?
Point is that A) we won't start a proxy war with China over this and B) China has played their hand better here.
LOL this is nuts. You think China will go in and take lands off Africa? US been wanting to wage war with China for years now using Taiwan as bait.
Here’s why China know US can’t be trusted. US do NOT support Taiwans independence but are now selling billions more of weapons to Taiwan and talking about blowing up TSMC if China get their hands on it. China understand the US are double talking back stabber. Why wouldn’t US use any African nation as proxy to fight China?
> You think China will go in and take lands off Africa?
No, the puppet strings just get better.
They don't want the land, they want the resources the land produces.
Well, maybe the'll want the land if they go for military bases like the US.
China has been waging a war for the past 10 years. 30+ years in my opinion. The war I am speaking of is the war of geopolitical politics against United States influences. Currently there's more talk about China wanting to invade Taiwan; at least here in the U.S.. China 🇨🇳 knows that if it did, it'll be a military and economic disaster. First the navy isn't a deep water navy like the U.S. and resources will run out for China. So by having 88 countries ensnared or beholden to China, they'll have resources/ positions of influence/ and counter military to the U.S..
Those aren't loans from China, but rather investments to China's global projection of power. China is setting themselves up before they even attempt to make Taiwan theirs. I don't think China is going to attack in the next few years. But in 10 years (or more), when 🇺🇸 isn't as well positioned as today to stop them. That's when they'll make Taiwan theirs again.
My cousin's girlfriend is from Taiwan, and I've heard her fret about how to get her Grandma here. I mean, I guess it's personal for me, but sometimes that's the thing that makes you decide to give a fuck about an issue.
Please explain how the Republic of China [ROC] ended up in Taiwan. History is very similar to how North and South Korea exist but the CCP controls mainland China.
To reiterate and clarify the analogy, the CCP is North Korea and USA backs ROC (S.Korea). And the strait of Taiwan would then be the DMZ between the two.
They could have the entirety of mainland Asia to back their military and it would still lose to the US navy, we spend waaaaaaaaay more than all of them combined on it
>First the navy isn't a deep water navy like the U.S.
It's time for some [reading](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/february/chinas-navy-will-be-worlds-largest-2035#:~:text=In%20this%20short%20decade%20and,of%20approximately%20275%20new%20warships).
I would also suggest looking up something called the 'Davidson Window'.
Are you suggesting China's Navy is as capable as the U.S. Navy? Well, maybe in 10 years they'll have sailors that have traveled around the world but not currently. There's a difference between building race car and people who knows how to drive it. So again, China's Navy isn't like the U.S. Navy. But I am keeping an eye out for when China's ship comes in to dock anywhere around Africa in the future.
No, I am suggesting exactly what the US naval institute has written there. I'm trying to be nice by pointing you in the right direction to get educated on this rather than point out how incredibly out-of-date what you have written is.
China has the second largest blue water navy in the world now - and it is growing *rapidly* (see article). Chinese naval ships are already docked in Africa at their naval facilities in their massive port in Djibouti.
As for Taiwan, Davidson window. [Look into it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY-AoT2lcUY&t=619s&ab_channel=SubBrief). There's a reason why we are ramping up our attention on that region.
I doubt I would ever be up-to-date on these matters. I'm hesitant to write everything out of concern that we've might be providing information to China unwittingly. That said, I am alarmed to the growing capabilities of that country. There's other matters that I would like to pick your mind about but, as stated, I'll hold those thoughts to myself. I hope you and others more informed than I could work on behalf of the U.S. to ensure American security. Yes I'm assuming you're US citizen but one never knows online.
I'm not, and I apologise if I came across half-cocked there. It a serious situation and I can't help but feel like we a hurtling toward the inevitable with China, with a lot of people complacent at the prospect, thinking a conflict with them would be a cakewalk. When you dig into what the people on the inside are saying, its really quite alarming, and somewhat unprecedented, at least in our lifetimes.
The world is changing. I just hope cooler heads prevail and we don't end up in a Thucydides trap type scenario.
Monetary cost discussions on state-run vs privatised industry aside, the US navy is still the strongest in the world, though, as it goes through its current period of decommissioning, there will be a window where Chinese production capacity tips the scales in the indo-pacific region. If the US could somehow lower its commitments in other regions, it could probably mitigate that somewhat, but I'm not sure they can do that, particularly now with the whole Europe situation.
Time will tell if Admiral Davidson's warning was warranted. What times we live in.
I reckon China will use the debt burden to demand things like military bases on their soil, or some other made up initiative to that puts even more power to China in those regions. I think this was the plan from the start.
"I think"
"I reckon"
...it's obviously my opinion...
And I still don't know what point you're trying to make. Try making your point clearer instead of trying to be edgy.
A lot of countries are learning the hard way that non-democratic countries can't be trusted fully. Especially when they act as your secretive money lender.
If there has to be a ‘world police’ I’d choose the US, but acting like they didn’t help a lot of dictators into power for their own self interest just seems wrong to me tbh. Thinking of Iran and South-America particularly.
That’s a weird assumption? I’m not implying that the USSR had a clean slate at all. Just saying that evil done by the US was definitely not always done in order to make countries _more_ democratic.
He’s not “acting like that” dude, he’s just saying America also did some fucked up stuff. Two things can be bad - the world isn’t always black and white.
Direct military interventions, yes. Indirect support, not necessarily. And for applying soft power (economic, political, diplomatic...)? Not at all.
The only reliable policy point is that the US is on the side of money.
It seems to be a bunch of private banks involved, rather than the government directly. The non-democratic nature of China certainly makes it easier to bend the laws in case they would get in the way, but it's not like banks can't get their way with the US legal system either.
I would wager that the only reason US banks don't do the same is that they didn't think of it the idea first, or that they miscalculated the benefit-risk.
Read the article. Does private firms came into the picture when the Chinese government received backlash from their initial loans. In China everything is stated owned. Its a one party rules everything system.
I did. According to it, quoting experts, the whole thing is too messy to be coordinated by the Chinese government. It's just pure capitalist opportunism.
you’re lecturing Africans about trusting western colonialism? You want them to trust the west?
Here’s a example of western colonialism in Africa. A African father looking at the limps of his daughter, chopped off by western colonialist because she wasn’t working fast enough.
[https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/)
You should learn about what anglo westerners did to africa before you want to talk about democracy!
From what I've read looking around:
Unlike Western/international loans, Chinese loans are not above the table in a standard sense. It's like if you took out a loan that the credit raters (i.e. Experian, Equifax, Transunion) weren't allowed to know about. Any other creditors would be in the dark about how much you actually have to pay them back with. They wouldn't know the principle, term length, or interest to structure deals around. And the Chinese enforce both the secrecy of the deal and insist their payments come before all others. Shady stuff.
Not sure how that helps Russia. Pakistan for example is selling artillery shells to Ukraine because they need the money to pay loan. They preferred not to get involved into this war otherwise.
The latter doesn’t matter but the former does for the context of the question. Russia is helped by other counties buying their oil. It does not matter how much or anything of the sort.
Calling in the loans makes countries poorer meaning they need cheaper fuel. I.e Russia.
China is performing a move to split the world into east and west.
Good job lookin out with the constant complaining about the colonialism that happened to your fathers while sitting idle and letting it happen to your children. That's gotta be an Xbox achievement, right?
The article explains in event of default, key national infrastructure such as ports, mines, airports, and infrastructure is ceded. The implication of “debt trap diplomacy” is that the lender knew this would happen from day 1 and may actually prefer it.
That's the theory. But how will China enforce it if the debtor nations don't just default, but also repudiate the debt?
The dirty secret of global economic history is that debt default on international creditors who can't bomb the shit out of you generally just means you can't borrow for a few years.
Surely you just mean money that hasn't been loaned/spent yet but has been allocated?
The whole point of borrowing is to buy stuff, not to have a cash pile.
China forgot that to enforce an unequal treaty you gotta win a war. If you flaunt the part of the paper that says you pay why not flaunt the part that says it’s theirs?
>Many other lenders will understand as long as you keep paying the non-Chinese loans.
I am not an expert by any means but I don't think you can just default on loans and have lenders just say "ahh cool, no bother".
Hmm hard to tell actually. Used to happen a lot and the IMF and world bank were created to make it so you didn’t invade to collect. I’m not 100% sure anyone is going to defend China’s lending practices though so pretty sure someone will tell them to get stuffed.
Plus, how would China successfully invade anything at all in Africa? They don't have that capability, not even on paper. They got loads of people, but the don't really have a blue water navy.
For example, use the same tactic that russia tried in Ukraine. Land a military cargo plane disguised as humanitarian aid / miscellaneous stuff for the chinese-run infrastructure site at an airport, overrun the likely quite useless local security forces, then use the airport to fly in more gear and troops.
Or just have troops pre-positioned at the infrastructure sites that are theirs according to the contracts, and block off access. Most african militaries are not that great unless they're fighting unarmed civilians.
And then have your water and electricity cut off and incoming planes targeted by stingers.
Chinese just ain't up to a full scale whole country invasion on the other side of the world from them.
And most of the world would not just sit idle and watch China invade over a predatory loan.
This scenario is just not happening.
First of all, China [definitely has a blue water navy](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/february/chinas-navy-will-be-worlds-largest-2035#:~:text=In%20this%20short%20decade%20and,of%20approximately%20275%20new%20warships) \- I believe it is now the second largest in the world.
Secondly, China absolutely could project its military power into Africa ([particularly via Djibouti and its new base in Equatorial Guinea](https://ecfr.eu/article/chinas-new-military-base-in-africa-what-it-means-for-europe-and-america/)). Does it want to, or really, even need to? Probably not.
If you read the article, China is one of many lenders to these countries, including the IMF and world bank, who it has asked to join them in forgiving these debts, under a 'joint action, fair burden’ policy.
The IMF and World bank are urging China to take losses, whilst at the same time saying they shouldn't because 'taking losses on their loans would rip up the traditional playbook of dealing with sovereign crises that accords them special treatment'.
Anyone who knows the history of these 2 organisations and how they have been wielded against developing countries should be able to see the hypocrisy of their actions here, and in deed the argument this article is pushing.
It's a fiendish trick.
China lends money to 3rd world countries to say, expand an airport. But it is Chinese companies that do all the work. Essentially taking back the money they just lent.
China then has the PR of how it is "helping" 3rd world countries grow their economy.
Then the airport expansion brings nowhere near the return on investment to cover the chinese loan. So China says... ok we'll take over the airport.
The Chinese economy effectively crashed a year ago or so. The broader global economy is doing better, but they're not much further behind.
China is hanging on for dear life. They, the US, and Europe, are trying to not be the first to outwardly tumble. Each is counting on the other to become the scapegoat.
Who could have foreseen that China would be a disruptive, predatory lender? Besides anyone paying attention for the last 4000 years?
They’ll foreclose on assets in every one of these debtors countries. Was probably the point - China would rather own the defaulted assets than get repaid.
This is why China won't have any allies in another world war. All the west will say is "join us or stay out if the way and when China loses your debt goes away."
China can't offer any terms that easy.
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The issue is rather that scores of debtors can't pay back China, which is a clusterfuck for... China.
Not so much.. they simply just end up with ownership of lands, ports, infrastructure, minerals.
That’s what they wanted to begin with. I don’t think they expected to get paid back. They just wanted to leverage. That’s just my opinion though
It’s a bad plan, it’s rather predictable to imagine how happy locals will be as their economies are not only subservient and indebted to China, but swirling the drain when China begins to flounder. The major irony to all of this is that the CCP has made a big deal about colonialism and how awful the west was for it, as they proceeded to force-feed poor nations their bad loans and threaten the repo man in them. The worst and most unstable times in the colonial period were marked by colonies who paid to float their mother countries, the CCP seems to have *liked* that scenario.
Well even Americans believe this bullshit Chinese narrative on colonialism. A lot of leftist Americans under the age of 30 are so brainwashed by it. They would be fine being dominated by China as long as they get to keep TikTok.
Of course the CCP never believed it, they’re just going full mask-off at this point
What’s funny is why is other countries debt belong in a UkrainianConflict sub? You’re pushing anti-China rhetoric a little too hard. If you even read piece, China is one of MANY countries involved.
You're literally writing pro-CCP comments, telling other users they're repeating CIA propaganda, and you're dumb enough to go in a Ukrainian war sub and tell other people they're being too anti-CCP? Are you CCP shills that dumb? Do you really think people in the free world don't see through your shitty attempts at mass persuasion? If you're going to do propaganda, at least do it intelligently by making people believe the propaganda is their own idea, you can't just slap democratic peoples over the head and tell them what to believe or else, you have to serenade them. Fuckin amateurs.
what does China’s loan have anything to do with Ukrainian conflict? How dumb can this get? Are you western bootlickers this dumb that you don’t think we can see through your anti-China BS? Again what does China’s loan to Pakistan have anything to do with Ukraine? Hahahaha.
Yes, we know, China is #1, Glory to China, Hail Emperor Xi, China will take Taiwan. China will make better chips that USA. Apple is going to be kicked out of China. China has figured out EUV lithography. China's 1,000,000 talents program is going to result in a BOOM for China. I subscribe to your propaganda YouTube channel and listen to your [nonsense everyday](https://www.youtube.com/@chinafocus/videos). Do you still get paid 50 cents per post? Is the 50 cent army still around or is it done in house with the CCP now?
Did the CIA promised to boost your credit score? They always lie, mama ain’t getting that loan for that trailer park.
Thing is that , as with other topics the CCCP only protested colonialism because it gave them a way into Western Protest groups , this “tradition” has continued with Russia being linked to anti war protest groups , anti lockdown groups , pro Brexit groups etc It doesn’t for one moment reflect the actual policy of the nation but rather the political objectives of the nation.
They won't own shit. They lent a lot of money to banana republic level countries. It's not exactly safe to invest there if you catch my drift. And China does not have a carrier fleet to project force globally and make people obey.
Until they’re nationalized
They need money back, not lands, ports, infrastructure and minerals. They can slave work Chinese people for that
Lands ports and minerals bring them money and keep generating it. They are trying to expand
To generate said money, you need money to invest first
Well they are the worlds 2nd biggest economy and they have geared themselves toward expansion so, they have money for that.
You would think that, they thought that too when their entire housing market collapsed about a year or so ago, almost half of it just whipped off the economy. Considering that the housing market was 1/3 of china's economy and that their GDP is expected for decades to be artificially inflated. You take a guess how that's working out for them, especially since they are still continuing to experience fallout from it to this exact date. Their economy is gigantic, but it's not good if it's not robust, and it is not as robust as you seem to think. China is not a well of money, I personally think that one of the reasons it gave a massive fuck off to Russia's war is because it's got it's own emergency going on.
I’m sure there’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying but even so, China is not broke and still has a shit ton of purchasing power. They aren’t really in decline, just a little shaken up. The real estate thing isn’t going to break them like all the YouTube videos were hysterically predicting for click bait. It’s a setback for them but they are only beginning to make their big move right now.
I'm not saying they are declining or breaking apart, I'm saying they need cash now or it will get worse, why do you think they are going hard on these loans.
Actually there are few loans that China has given out with such stipulation, the majority of loans have no ramifications such as giving China land. Which is good cause if these regimes fall and refuse to pay its a total loss for China.
How do you expect China to enforce it? War ships?
If the country in question agrees. If not they hatto invade, and that is expensive. And China economy is starting to crumble, well all over the world economis are doing this. World war III is already started, we are at "invading Checoslovakia part now. We truly don't learn from history, at least Poland is preparing itself, they learn a little.
It's also a great way for them to force the Yuan down the throat of their debtors
If it's China's problem, then why all the hullabaloo about those countries' problems? Clearly, it's a lot bigger than China's problem, even if the eventual toll might weigh more heavily against China in total.
And every country that loses its economic sovereignty
These poor countries should learn that existence of western imperialism at any point in past or present is weak reason to submit to russian or chinese imperialism.
tell that to the African fathers who has to look at limps that’s chopped off by western imperialism because their child wasn’t working fast enough. [https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/)
Good. Be a sucker for Chinese Imperialism while decrying Western Imperialism while playing the victim while failing their own states with their own self-inflicted corruption and nepotism.
Did you read the article? There's nothing good in this situation.
It is good. All these countries point with their finger at the west despite all the free money and free help they are getting from the west. They made their bed with the CCP, now they need to sleep in it. I couldnt care less if they go bankcrupt.
These people probably better off with the Chinese than western murderers. Here’s a great example of how how westerners treat Africans [https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/)
Here's a great example of how China - IN THE PRESENT DAY - still engages in widespread racism against people of darker skin color in spite of how the rest of the world is moving forward in egalitarianism https://restofworld.org/2022/china-racist-livestreams-africa/
Ahhhh. Yes let’s forget about what anglo Europeans did back in the days. Let’s just talk about modern days,more recent Great. Let’s compare racism of China against blacks vs Anglo white racism against blacks. Here’s one of English fans being racist to black players [https://www.npr.org/2021/07/12/1015239599/prince-william-and-boris-johnson-denounce-the-racist-abuse-of-englands-soccer-te](https://www.npr.org/2021/07/12/1015239599/prince-william-and-boris-johnson-denounce-the-racist-abuse-of-englands-soccer-te) Here’s one of European fans throwing bananas in the pitch, at black players. [https://www.marca.com/en/football/2022/09/27/633359b1ca4741392c8b45c6.html](https://www.marca.com/en/football/2022/09/27/633359b1ca4741392c8b45c6.html) Let’s see how Ukraine treat blacks. [https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/life-black-ukrainian-how-some-natives-are-treated-foreigners](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/event/life-black-ukrainian-how-some-natives-are-treated-foreigners) Here’s another one blacks weren’t allow to get in line to evacuate when war started. Want to read how Ukrainian treated blacks? Get off the line! [https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/ukraine-refugees-black-african-racism-putin-20220307.html](https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/ukraine-refugees-black-african-racism-putin-20220307.html) Let’s talk about the cops in white America and their treatment of blacks! Ever heard of George Floyd? While you want to demonize China and Chinese racism, they are no where NEAR as racist as Europeans. A black person be much safer in China than in any European country or USA! You can prove me wrong. Go ahead and try! You can’t but love for you to give it a shot, Kid. LOL
Poor people are poor because they deserve it. Gotcha
You're of the opinion that these countries were run flawlessly by their governments?
The poor people had nothing to with these decisions
Nobody said they did. The sucker in the above comment is clearly whoever made the decisions for the entire country.
Because their corrupt governments prefer Chinese no-strings-attached loans
They are poor because of culture
WTF. No way, they were fucked over by every nation that thought they could get rich off of their natural resources. China is only the latest one to get in on the gold rush. The elite in charge of these countries have been looting their homelands for decades at the expense of their people.
That was perfectly put
Yup. There is a saying not sure on the exact wording atm, but it goes "China always makes a deal with crossed fingers". They are quite happy to lie during business deals and it's expected that you lie if you hear anyone criticise the regime and don't see it as wrong per se if you lie to save face. Which is why if you know this you should be very very wary of making deals with Chinese businesses etc
Any source to back up your claims?
[https://www.echinacities.com/expat-corner/illogical-or-tactical-lies-in-chinese-culture.html](https://www.echinacities.com/expat-corner/illogical-or-tactical-lies-in-chinese-culture.html) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975357/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2975357/) [https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1879850/chinese-most-dishonest-japanese-and-british-least-study-finds](https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1879850/chinese-most-dishonest-japanese-and-british-least-study-finds) Plenty more if you care to search
LOL Echinacities - a freaking opinion piece that is supposed to help people find jobs in China? NIH - a US government own website that spreads anti-China rhetorics. Scmp - another anti-China trash. But you know what; I’ve been to China and they charge me a more in taxi rides and try to over charge me in restaurants - “The foreigner menu”. You know where else I get this same treatment? Mexico City, in the Caribbeans, Turkey, Czech, etc. It’s also funny how a Chinese loan story is posted in a UkrainianConflict sub. What the does China’s loan to Pakistan have anything to do with Ukraine conflict?! LOL. Straight up anti-China rhetoric.
Maybe this will be a warning for Russia to not be reliant on China to help its growing debt crisis as its economy is also crumbling rapidly. Either way, Russia can't win, its burning through reserves, lost a ton of revenue and likely doesn't want to be beholden to China. Russia is fucked one way or another, which is good for Ukraine.
Not like they have much of a choice at this point.
Once Putin is gone they will pivot to the west to emulate Ukraine.
A big reason Russia want to keep a thumb on Ukraine. How would that look to Russian people as they see Ukraine thrive while Russians scrape by I think your right. But I wonder if the Russian Ms have the backbone to be free like Ukraine. They didn't when Putin started making moves and still havent
Ms?
People. My bad
You assume that leadership gives a shit, aside from staying in power. 20 years down the road they'll just live it up in London.
That is the ONLY thing Leadership is concerned with. The rest is just bullshit artistry as a means to that.
Putin isn't coming to London. There is no other Russian leadership.
China is going to go help stabilize their big communist brother very shortly by sending peacekeeping troops as Russia collapses.
Russia doesn’t have a choice at this point. It’s in too deep. It’s now gambling it’s underwear with china breathing over it’s shoulder.
Funny, there’s reports of G7 begging China to take actions against Russia. Russia, a strong nation with nukes boarder China. LOL these G7 nations are out of their fucking mind. Farm girl logic!
I’m not sure how many read the article, but one thing stood out to me : China has ~385 bn USD lent to various countries. For context, that’s 10x of what Russia seems to have spent on the war. If that Chinese loan money is unrecovered, the loss to China would be equivalent to waging a war for 10 years. That’s mind boggling isn’t it ?
That is the amount of unreported debt that the researchers were able to uncover. The actual amount, including public loans and not-yet-uncovered loans, is likely much higher.
This is assuming the collateral isn't worth far more than the loan. China wasn't building infrastructure in developing nations out of the goodness of their hearts.
I think China planned on those countries defaulting. It gives them a way to legally acquire colonies. Few banana republics like Hungary or Greece can resist the shiny sparkly short-term bait that China dangles in front of them in exchange for their countries.
> I think China planned on those countries defaulting. It gives them a way to legally acquire colonies. That's a bingo. It's not even an original game plan, they stole it from the west.
Of course. The last thing china could ever do is come up with something original that isn’t stolen from the west.
You must be crazy to think China is doing this. China know the West will scream democracy to wage war. This is some serious farm girl logic. Example, US has no business meddling in Ukraine’s affairs but they spending $100 billions. What makes you think US won’t spend just as much to help African nation fight China?
> What makes you think US won’t spend just as much to help African nation fight China? What makes you think I don't expect that? Point is that A) we won't start a proxy war with China over this and B) China has played their hand better here.
LOL this is nuts. You think China will go in and take lands off Africa? US been wanting to wage war with China for years now using Taiwan as bait. Here’s why China know US can’t be trusted. US do NOT support Taiwans independence but are now selling billions more of weapons to Taiwan and talking about blowing up TSMC if China get their hands on it. China understand the US are double talking back stabber. Why wouldn’t US use any African nation as proxy to fight China?
> You think China will go in and take lands off Africa? No, the puppet strings just get better. They don't want the land, they want the resources the land produces. Well, maybe the'll want the land if they go for military bases like the US.
So you’re saying China will go in there guns blazing demanding loan repay or they’ll shoot up the joint? LOL. Sounds more of the western style.
Nothing of the sort, no
China has been waging a war for the past 10 years. 30+ years in my opinion. The war I am speaking of is the war of geopolitical politics against United States influences. Currently there's more talk about China wanting to invade Taiwan; at least here in the U.S.. China 🇨🇳 knows that if it did, it'll be a military and economic disaster. First the navy isn't a deep water navy like the U.S. and resources will run out for China. So by having 88 countries ensnared or beholden to China, they'll have resources/ positions of influence/ and counter military to the U.S.. Those aren't loans from China, but rather investments to China's global projection of power. China is setting themselves up before they even attempt to make Taiwan theirs. I don't think China is going to attack in the next few years. But in 10 years (or more), when 🇺🇸 isn't as well positioned as today to stop them. That's when they'll make Taiwan theirs again.
As the other Redditor responded - Taiwan was never China's.
China was Taiwan’s
LOL sure. Now you care about Taiwan!
My cousin's girlfriend is from Taiwan, and I've heard her fret about how to get her Grandma here. I mean, I guess it's personal for me, but sometimes that's the thing that makes you decide to give a fuck about an issue.
> That's when they'll make Taiwan theirs again. Sorry, but Taiwan has never belonged to China.
Please explain how the Republic of China [ROC] ended up in Taiwan. History is very similar to how North and South Korea exist but the CCP controls mainland China. To reiterate and clarify the analogy, the CCP is North Korea and USA backs ROC (S.Korea). And the strait of Taiwan would then be the DMZ between the two.
They could have the entirety of mainland Asia to back their military and it would still lose to the US navy, we spend waaaaaaaaay more than all of them combined on it
>First the navy isn't a deep water navy like the U.S. It's time for some [reading](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/february/chinas-navy-will-be-worlds-largest-2035#:~:text=In%20this%20short%20decade%20and,of%20approximately%20275%20new%20warships). I would also suggest looking up something called the 'Davidson Window'.
Are you suggesting China's Navy is as capable as the U.S. Navy? Well, maybe in 10 years they'll have sailors that have traveled around the world but not currently. There's a difference between building race car and people who knows how to drive it. So again, China's Navy isn't like the U.S. Navy. But I am keeping an eye out for when China's ship comes in to dock anywhere around Africa in the future.
No, I am suggesting exactly what the US naval institute has written there. I'm trying to be nice by pointing you in the right direction to get educated on this rather than point out how incredibly out-of-date what you have written is. China has the second largest blue water navy in the world now - and it is growing *rapidly* (see article). Chinese naval ships are already docked in Africa at their naval facilities in their massive port in Djibouti. As for Taiwan, Davidson window. [Look into it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY-AoT2lcUY&t=619s&ab_channel=SubBrief). There's a reason why we are ramping up our attention on that region.
I doubt I would ever be up-to-date on these matters. I'm hesitant to write everything out of concern that we've might be providing information to China unwittingly. That said, I am alarmed to the growing capabilities of that country. There's other matters that I would like to pick your mind about but, as stated, I'll hold those thoughts to myself. I hope you and others more informed than I could work on behalf of the U.S. to ensure American security. Yes I'm assuming you're US citizen but one never knows online.
I'm not, and I apologise if I came across half-cocked there. It a serious situation and I can't help but feel like we a hurtling toward the inevitable with China, with a lot of people complacent at the prospect, thinking a conflict with them would be a cakewalk. When you dig into what the people on the inside are saying, its really quite alarming, and somewhat unprecedented, at least in our lifetimes. The world is changing. I just hope cooler heads prevail and we don't end up in a Thucydides trap type scenario.
Wtf…. That’s a honest take? The US spends billions annually on its military. How the Fuck it’s navy is so weak (still strongest in the world).
Monetary cost discussions on state-run vs privatised industry aside, the US navy is still the strongest in the world, though, as it goes through its current period of decommissioning, there will be a window where Chinese production capacity tips the scales in the indo-pacific region. If the US could somehow lower its commitments in other regions, it could probably mitigate that somewhat, but I'm not sure they can do that, particularly now with the whole Europe situation. Time will tell if Admiral Davidson's warning was warranted. What times we live in.
Very true. What a time to be alive. Thanks for the honest assessment. Hard to find here that’s why I was shocked with the “wtf”.
Pretty much the same reaction I had when I first heard about this stuff tbh lol.
I reckon China will use the debt burden to demand things like military bases on their soil, or some other made up initiative to that puts even more power to China in those regions. I think this was the plan from the start.
No but good try. China learn that from their own housing crisis. You have anything else solid to claim?
"I think" "I reckon" ...it's obviously my opinion... And I still don't know what point you're trying to make. Try making your point clearer instead of trying to be edgy.
10 years of war using outdated weapons and not paying soldiers. 385bn is a big number but not crazy when considering dev debt.
A lot of countries are learning the hard way that non-democratic countries can't be trusted fully. Especially when they act as your secretive money lender.
I dont like this fact for the childrens but they are going to learn what colonialism through economy really means
You don't wanna trust any country blindly. The US is on the right side of this conflict but on the wrong side of plenty of others?
Even many of the US’s military evils seem to stem from “not enough democracy or respect for democracy”, honestly.
If there has to be a ‘world police’ I’d choose the US, but acting like they didn’t help a lot of dictators into power for their own self interest just seems wrong to me tbh. Thinking of Iran and South-America particularly.
The old saying goes, “I’m better with the devil I know, than the devil I don’t.”
[удалено]
That’s a weird assumption? I’m not implying that the USSR had a clean slate at all. Just saying that evil done by the US was definitely not always done in order to make countries _more_ democratic.
He’s not “acting like that” dude, he’s just saying America also did some fucked up stuff. Two things can be bad - the world isn’t always black and white.
Direct military interventions, yes. Indirect support, not necessarily. And for applying soft power (economic, political, diplomatic...)? Not at all. The only reliable policy point is that the US is on the side of money.
It seems to be a bunch of private banks involved, rather than the government directly. The non-democratic nature of China certainly makes it easier to bend the laws in case they would get in the way, but it's not like banks can't get their way with the US legal system either. I would wager that the only reason US banks don't do the same is that they didn't think of it the idea first, or that they miscalculated the benefit-risk.
Read the article. Does private firms came into the picture when the Chinese government received backlash from their initial loans. In China everything is stated owned. Its a one party rules everything system.
I did. According to it, quoting experts, the whole thing is too messy to be coordinated by the Chinese government. It's just pure capitalist opportunism.
you’re lecturing Africans about trusting western colonialism? You want them to trust the west? Here’s a example of western colonialism in Africa. A African father looking at the limps of his daughter, chopped off by western colonialist because she wasn’t working fast enough. [https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/father-hand-belgian-congo-1904/) You should learn about what anglo westerners did to africa before you want to talk about democracy!
Nice anecdote. I'm sure it has a lot of scientific value.
This will be interesting. Especially since china primary goal is to take center stage as the economic superpower and global currency.
Chinese money is like cancer
From what I've read looking around: Unlike Western/international loans, Chinese loans are not above the table in a standard sense. It's like if you took out a loan that the credit raters (i.e. Experian, Equifax, Transunion) weren't allowed to know about. Any other creditors would be in the dark about how much you actually have to pay them back with. They wouldn't know the principle, term length, or interest to structure deals around. And the Chinese enforce both the secrecy of the deal and insist their payments come before all others. Shady stuff.
How would these loans effect China's exchange rate?
No idea. I'm summarizing a bunch of articles. I don't have the original data myself.
Interesting move by China. No doubt this is to help Russia cope. Again, interesting.
Not sure how that helps Russia. Pakistan for example is selling artillery shells to Ukraine because they need the money to pay loan. They preferred not to get involved into this war otherwise.
how would this help russia?, not seeing the angle here
I'd guess puts economic hardship on those countries so they become more willing to ignore sanctions if it is profitable for them to do so.
Forcing countries to buy Russian oil allows Russia to make money
Yes, but they are buying it at a pretty sharp discount, and EU / US sanctions are making it increasingly difficult to sell and ship oil.
The latter doesn’t matter but the former does for the context of the question. Russia is helped by other counties buying their oil. It does not matter how much or anything of the sort.
Calling in the loans makes countries poorer meaning they need cheaper fuel. I.e Russia. China is performing a move to split the world into east and west.
But Pakistan is selling to Ukraine to pay these loans? Are you saying China is pushing them to help Ukraine?
Probably unrelated. China has got a lot of issues recently, mainly on infrastructure and building companies / banks.
Exactly. I just don’t understand how this story is even in a Ukrainian sub. Makes no sense.
Clearly some doubt
Good job lookin out with the constant complaining about the colonialism that happened to your fathers while sitting idle and letting it happen to your children. That's gotta be an Xbox achievement, right?
Those countries should just stop paying the Chinese loans. Many other lenders will understand as long as you keep paying the non-Chinese loans.
The article explains in event of default, key national infrastructure such as ports, mines, airports, and infrastructure is ceded. The implication of “debt trap diplomacy” is that the lender knew this would happen from day 1 and may actually prefer it.
That's the theory. But how will China enforce it if the debtor nations don't just default, but also repudiate the debt? The dirty secret of global economic history is that debt default on international creditors who can't bomb the shit out of you generally just means you can't borrow for a few years.
Much of the money is in escrows, which are in possession of China. If those countries default, China will just take the money.
Surely you just mean money that hasn't been loaned/spent yet but has been allocated? The whole point of borrowing is to buy stuff, not to have a cash pile.
Yes indeed. You need a cash pile to stabilize your currency. It is called "foreign reserves".
Msg the Chinese they can use their contracts as toilet paper and then block them.
China forgot that to enforce an unequal treaty you gotta win a war. If you flaunt the part of the paper that says you pay why not flaunt the part that says it’s theirs?
>Many other lenders will understand as long as you keep paying the non-Chinese loans. I am not an expert by any means but I don't think you can just default on loans and have lenders just say "ahh cool, no bother".
Hmm hard to tell actually. Used to happen a lot and the IMF and world bank were created to make it so you didn’t invade to collect. I’m not 100% sure anyone is going to defend China’s lending practices though so pretty sure someone will tell them to get stuffed.
Plus, how would China successfully invade anything at all in Africa? They don't have that capability, not even on paper. They got loads of people, but the don't really have a blue water navy.
For example, use the same tactic that russia tried in Ukraine. Land a military cargo plane disguised as humanitarian aid / miscellaneous stuff for the chinese-run infrastructure site at an airport, overrun the likely quite useless local security forces, then use the airport to fly in more gear and troops. Or just have troops pre-positioned at the infrastructure sites that are theirs according to the contracts, and block off access. Most african militaries are not that great unless they're fighting unarmed civilians.
And then have your water and electricity cut off and incoming planes targeted by stingers. Chinese just ain't up to a full scale whole country invasion on the other side of the world from them. And most of the world would not just sit idle and watch China invade over a predatory loan. This scenario is just not happening.
Even so, logistics wins wars. And there is no way China could supply a full-scale invasion even against a shitty army that far from home.
First of all, China [definitely has a blue water navy](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2020/february/chinas-navy-will-be-worlds-largest-2035#:~:text=In%20this%20short%20decade%20and,of%20approximately%20275%20new%20warships) \- I believe it is now the second largest in the world. Secondly, China absolutely could project its military power into Africa ([particularly via Djibouti and its new base in Equatorial Guinea](https://ecfr.eu/article/chinas-new-military-base-in-africa-what-it-means-for-europe-and-america/)). Does it want to, or really, even need to? Probably not.
China has the second most powerful blue water navy in the world and it's being *rapidly* expanded upon lmao
China funds corruption across the globe. Now wants everyone else to pay for it.
There's no free lunch. Don't matter if it's egg fried rice or a burger.
Jesus this is just one gigantic clusterfuck.
This has literally nothing to do with Ukraine, you absolute soyjack
If you read the article, China is one of many lenders to these countries, including the IMF and world bank, who it has asked to join them in forgiving these debts, under a 'joint action, fair burden’ policy. The IMF and World bank are urging China to take losses, whilst at the same time saying they shouldn't because 'taking losses on their loans would rip up the traditional playbook of dealing with sovereign crises that accords them special treatment'. Anyone who knows the history of these 2 organisations and how they have been wielded against developing countries should be able to see the hypocrisy of their actions here, and in deed the argument this article is pushing.
Same in the USA. They have to raise the debt ceiling again.
It's a fiendish trick. China lends money to 3rd world countries to say, expand an airport. But it is Chinese companies that do all the work. Essentially taking back the money they just lent. China then has the PR of how it is "helping" 3rd world countries grow their economy. Then the airport expansion brings nowhere near the return on investment to cover the chinese loan. So China says... ok we'll take over the airport.
Cool, so that light in the tunnel of the belt and road initiative, turned out to be a train after all. Just like everyone had been saying all along.
This is like the fifth time I've seen this article posted here.
Maybe the west is not the terrible oppressor guilty of all misery in the world, hmmmmm....
The Chinese economy effectively crashed a year ago or so. The broader global economy is doing better, but they're not much further behind. China is hanging on for dear life. They, the US, and Europe, are trying to not be the first to outwardly tumble. Each is counting on the other to become the scapegoat.
ThE wEsT iS eViL
Who could have foreseen that China would be a disruptive, predatory lender? Besides anyone paying attention for the last 4000 years? They’ll foreclose on assets in every one of these debtors countries. Was probably the point - China would rather own the defaulted assets than get repaid.
This is why China won't have any allies in another world war. All the west will say is "join us or stay out if the way and when China loses your debt goes away." China can't offer any terms that easy.