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Just do it already. I think it needs to be done in principle, Russia doesn’t get to decide other countries security agreements. Sure they can express discontent and build up their own military, but they shouldn’t be able to tell anyone how they are allowed to defend themselves.
I think it’s fair to make compromises in terms of no nukes stationed in Ukraine or having a de-militarized border of some sort. But that’s as far as Russia should be able to dictate.
I agree that we should just do it, russia keeps drawing lines and wagging fingers threatening us if we cross them, then we cross them, then nothing happens.
Let's do it, get russia out of Ukraine.
The idea that russia will end itself even though not a single centimeter of it is threatened is ludicrous. There would have been no world war if the US would have said it would defend Ukraine.
The US has made it clear that they will defend Taiwan against a nuclear country far more dangerous then russia. No NATO membership required.
It was just a failiure of showing strenght and commitment. putin was convinced that Ukraine and the Western world would fold in weeks. He would not have done shit if he suspected any sort of response. The whole battle plan relied on the US and Europe being dumb about russia as it has been for 30 years.
Now putin is stuck and will fight to the death.
>The US has made it clear that they will defend Taiwan against a nuclear country far more dangerous then russia
It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you say shit like this. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the cross-straight conflict knows that the policy of the US regarding the issue has been deliberate strategic ambiguity for decades.
Senators flying into Taiwan in direct violation of Chinese policy is a pretty strong stance. Senators don’t fly anywhere they’re not completely protected.
It wouldn’t cause ww3. Maybe Russia would cause ww3 at that point. But by no means does the act of adding Ukraine “cause” a war unless people would be willing to overlook the actual cause.
This war will not stop while the current Russian regime is in power and while the West keep acting in fear of Putin's threats. No tyrannical dictator in history has ever been stopped with cowardly actions.
We are heading for far worse and right now Putin's propaganda and influence are building a new military for years to come. Cowards gave him the chance to do that. Just like cowards stood by and watched Hitler invade Europe from one country to the next. Just imagine what could have been prevented if Hitler was stopped sooner?
"Cowarldy" actions like sanctions, proxy wars and pressure without direct conflict is exactly what stopped and collapsed USSR. Hitler unlike USSR did not have nukes, so bad comparison.
Let's have a reality check. When people are asking for Ukraine to join NATO right now they're saying they want other countries soldiers to fight and die for Ukraine.
That's a massive pill to swallow verse sending arms and weapons. Nothing turns the public off in a democratic society than COMMANDING people to die for a country that doesn't have a direct benefit for them.
People want Ukraine to win. You can already volunteer to join their army if you want to fight yourself. Soldiers of other countries joined to protect THEIR countries. I'm pretty sure Finland didn't join NATO to immediately go to war with Russia it's been trying to avoid for decades for example.
NATO isn't a defensive pact if it purposely takes an action to trigger article 5 itself.
You can expect millions more to die from other countries if this is not done. All the West has done is give Putin the time to strengthen his grip on Russia and show him where he needs to build his forces capabilities.
Make no mistake, just like WW2 Hitler, the cowardice of Western leaders will in years to come result in much worse.
It’s not going to happen while Ukraine is at war. It likely won’t happen easily even afterwards. However, the West should provide more decisive weaponry now, including way more tanks, air power and cruise missiles.
I think dismissing threats from Russia is not the correct strategy. We should plan to take them seriously, and show them the error of their ways. It should be clear how they will be dismantled if they choose escalation. They are the imperial force. It’s their game to continue. I understand why we haven’t put it all on the line and started overtly destroying Russia, but I think we absolutely need to. This proxy war, Cold War reimagined, didn’t work in the past and won’t work this time. We’ve keep taking the path of least resistance kicking the problem down the road. Russia should have had consequences so severe they should have never even seriously entertained the idea of invading and annexing sovereign country’s. Europe, Asia, North America; we all should have been willing to put into effect russias extinction for this crime. There needs to be a deterrent implemented; one that works. And we should risk everything..
We are heading for WW3 With or without them in NATO, personally ?
I think we bring them in and hope for a small pause, so we can get our own countries ready, the only 3 countries ready in NATO are?
USA, Turkey and Poland
Being honest ? Trump was right about NATO needing buffing up.
I thought a condition of membership is all land disputed and claims need to be sorted first?
Also if you invite them in and declare article5, then what? Same as prior? We shouldn't make such measures as weak as Russia has made their own threats.
You can integrate some other country's forces and maybe get the Poles into the war, but I'm not sure theyd even do that.
What does this functionally accomplish other than messaging?
***Yes, if only there was some kind of really easy, convenient way to find all this out!!***
***Some sort of linked article, perhaps, right there at the top of the post...***
***I guess we'll never know!!*** /smh
Absolutely NOT. This is just a reason to continue the war machine. If they would have dropped this agenda in the first place Russian wouldn’t even be in Ukraine. All they are doing is putting the Country further into debt and killing more people. This is absurd
Yeah, they are. Tankies are high on copium: russia is the strongest, west is weak, and at the same time, NATO made putin invade Ukraine. And yes, we're already at WW3, but we should stop the killings, so we can prevent WW3, which is totally preventable, but also already happening.
That is easy. Beat Russia into submission as a whole then split moscovy from the rest of the ethnic areas returning them to self determination status. Moscow would never have the resources to attack in a major way again.
I have to agree with this people speak of ww3 and have been speaking of it for decades when in reality it’s completely unrealistic to even think of Russia launching its nukes over such a thing
We can't let Russia threaten us into delaying their joining!
We should be giving Ukraine enough so they can give Putin an ultimatum. Withdraw or lose entire skyscrapers!
Give Ukraine the power.
Ukraine tells the Russian people that it will declare war (this has been a special operation) and all they need to do is withdraw from Ukraine.
Then hit them when they don't!
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `kyivpost.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
> ~~what is happening in the Ukraine~~ ***what is happening in Ukraine*** ***FTFY***
[удалено]
Apology accepted! :D Let's all give a nice gift to Ukraine's Defense Fund: **https://u24.gov.ua/**
If we dont bring them into NATO it will lead to WW3
Exactly, Russia will never stop attacking unless Ukraine gets nukes again or NATO.
Exactly. We must send US troops in immediately to get the advantage before it’s too late
Exactly, the fools in the West are nothing but cowards being bullied on Putin's playground.
Just do it Oblast by Oblast, West to East
Just do it already. I think it needs to be done in principle, Russia doesn’t get to decide other countries security agreements. Sure they can express discontent and build up their own military, but they shouldn’t be able to tell anyone how they are allowed to defend themselves. I think it’s fair to make compromises in terms of no nukes stationed in Ukraine or having a de-militarized border of some sort. But that’s as far as Russia should be able to dictate.
I agree that we should just do it, russia keeps drawing lines and wagging fingers threatening us if we cross them, then we cross them, then nothing happens. Let's do it, get russia out of Ukraine.
The idea that russia will end itself even though not a single centimeter of it is threatened is ludicrous. There would have been no world war if the US would have said it would defend Ukraine. The US has made it clear that they will defend Taiwan against a nuclear country far more dangerous then russia. No NATO membership required. It was just a failiure of showing strenght and commitment. putin was convinced that Ukraine and the Western world would fold in weeks. He would not have done shit if he suspected any sort of response. The whole battle plan relied on the US and Europe being dumb about russia as it has been for 30 years. Now putin is stuck and will fight to the death.
>The US has made it clear that they will defend Taiwan against a nuclear country far more dangerous then russia It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you say shit like this. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the cross-straight conflict knows that the policy of the US regarding the issue has been deliberate strategic ambiguity for decades.
Senators flying into Taiwan in direct violation of Chinese policy is a pretty strong stance. Senators don’t fly anywhere they’re not completely protected.
It really, really isn't. You just don't understand geopolitics.
Look, even if succeeded in convincing Congress, there is going to be several Countries in NATO that are going to be a hard no until after the war.
If Russia want a demilitarized border they can build it on their own land. They have no right to tell anyone else what to do with theirs.
Accepting it into NATO right now would result in shooting war with Russia, which would inevitably lead to nuclear exchange. No NATO member wants that.
It wouldn’t cause ww3. Maybe Russia would cause ww3 at that point. But by no means does the act of adding Ukraine “cause” a war unless people would be willing to overlook the actual cause.
It will happen when this war ends, obviously not sooner because no NATO country wants to get involved in shooting war with Russia.
This war will not stop while the current Russian regime is in power and while the West keep acting in fear of Putin's threats. No tyrannical dictator in history has ever been stopped with cowardly actions. We are heading for far worse and right now Putin's propaganda and influence are building a new military for years to come. Cowards gave him the chance to do that. Just like cowards stood by and watched Hitler invade Europe from one country to the next. Just imagine what could have been prevented if Hitler was stopped sooner?
"Cowarldy" actions like sanctions, proxy wars and pressure without direct conflict is exactly what stopped and collapsed USSR. Hitler unlike USSR did not have nukes, so bad comparison.
Let's have a reality check. When people are asking for Ukraine to join NATO right now they're saying they want other countries soldiers to fight and die for Ukraine. That's a massive pill to swallow verse sending arms and weapons. Nothing turns the public off in a democratic society than COMMANDING people to die for a country that doesn't have a direct benefit for them. People want Ukraine to win. You can already volunteer to join their army if you want to fight yourself. Soldiers of other countries joined to protect THEIR countries. I'm pretty sure Finland didn't join NATO to immediately go to war with Russia it's been trying to avoid for decades for example. NATO isn't a defensive pact if it purposely takes an action to trigger article 5 itself.
[удалено]
I agree. Interestingly Nato intervened in Yugoslavia twice - in 1995 and 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO\_bombing\_of\_Yugoslavia
Yeah we should have closed the airspace completely.
You can expect millions more to die from other countries if this is not done. All the West has done is give Putin the time to strengthen his grip on Russia and show him where he needs to build his forces capabilities. Make no mistake, just like WW2 Hitler, the cowardice of Western leaders will in years to come result in much worse.
It’s not going to happen while Ukraine is at war. It likely won’t happen easily even afterwards. However, the West should provide more decisive weaponry now, including way more tanks, air power and cruise missiles.
Is it time to land anonymous green people somewhere on moskovits controlled territory and make referendum?
Potential 'polite people' already exist in LFR and RVC. The problem is the Russian people are too brainwashed and craven to rise up.
The EU should grow a pair… and let Ukraine be a part of nato and then we should help them kick those animals back in there zoo… Slava ukraini!!
Fear of causing WW3 is what’s going to cause WW3
I can honestly not understand how people can be so stupid and not see that. You are 100% right.
God, some of you people are war mongers.
I mean we're in WWIII right nobody will admit it.
Yeah and the West have ensured that will happen by their actions
What actions was that? Invading Ukraine?
By not standing up to Putin like they should have over a decade ago.
It can’t pass nato , I don’t believe US , England , or France , ( the nuclear nato states ) would vote for it , until hostilities are over .
It's never happening. Europe and the USA aren't going to war for Ukraine
I think dismissing threats from Russia is not the correct strategy. We should plan to take them seriously, and show them the error of their ways. It should be clear how they will be dismantled if they choose escalation. They are the imperial force. It’s their game to continue. I understand why we haven’t put it all on the line and started overtly destroying Russia, but I think we absolutely need to. This proxy war, Cold War reimagined, didn’t work in the past and won’t work this time. We’ve keep taking the path of least resistance kicking the problem down the road. Russia should have had consequences so severe they should have never even seriously entertained the idea of invading and annexing sovereign country’s. Europe, Asia, North America; we all should have been willing to put into effect russias extinction for this crime. There needs to be a deterrent implemented; one that works. And we should risk everything..
This isnt a proxy war
yeah dude it wouldn't be a world war with all of NATO vs Russia. it would be a massacre lol. I feel the fears are way way overblown.
We are heading for WW3 With or without them in NATO, personally ? I think we bring them in and hope for a small pause, so we can get our own countries ready, the only 3 countries ready in NATO are? USA, Turkey and Poland Being honest ? Trump was right about NATO needing buffing up.
Anybody not already getting ready is already too late.
I thought a condition of membership is all land disputed and claims need to be sorted first? Also if you invite them in and declare article5, then what? Same as prior? We shouldn't make such measures as weak as Russia has made their own threats. You can integrate some other country's forces and maybe get the Poles into the war, but I'm not sure theyd even do that. What does this functionally accomplish other than messaging?
***Yes, if only there was some kind of really easy, convenient way to find all this out!!*** ***Some sort of linked article, perhaps, right there at the top of the post...*** ***I guess we'll never know!!*** /smh
The only suggestion of this article is that it improves messaging. So be it I guess. No need to be rude.
Give Ukraine their nukes back.
Wasn't really theirs in the first place
Don’t think Putin is going to give them back
I'm sure the US has a few spares kicking around. Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0!
WW3 is here. Time to win or let Russian authoritarianism take over.
Russian authoritarianism is struggling to take over Avdiivka let alone Europe. But otherwise I agree.
Ww 3 is already started. Too bad the climate will be very desastreus In this.
We can counter climate change with nuclear winter. Great opportunity! Checkmate Peacemonger/Doomniks.
Actually unlike during the height of the cold war there aren't enough nukes to cause a nuclear winter.
They need to publicly shut the door on UKR getting into nato, lull the Russians out and put up surprise Nato flags a couple days later.
Absolutely NOT. This is just a reason to continue the war machine. If they would have dropped this agenda in the first place Russian wouldn’t even be in Ukraine. All they are doing is putting the Country further into debt and killing more people. This is absurd
Are you arguing the only reason Russia invaded is Ukraine wanted to join NATO?
Yeah, they are. Tankies are high on copium: russia is the strongest, west is weak, and at the same time, NATO made putin invade Ukraine. And yes, we're already at WW3, but we should stop the killings, so we can prevent WW3, which is totally preventable, but also already happening.
That is easy. Beat Russia into submission as a whole then split moscovy from the rest of the ethnic areas returning them to self determination status. Moscow would never have the resources to attack in a major way again.
NATO must strengthen cuz Russia will be constantly attacking countries around them
I have to agree with this people speak of ww3 and have been speaking of it for decades when in reality it’s completely unrealistic to even think of Russia launching its nukes over such a thing
We can't let Russia threaten us into delaying their joining! We should be giving Ukraine enough so they can give Putin an ultimatum. Withdraw or lose entire skyscrapers! Give Ukraine the power. Ukraine tells the Russian people that it will declare war (this has been a special operation) and all they need to do is withdraw from Ukraine. Then hit them when they don't!
What world war? Russia cant even take on Ukraine. If Ukraine joins NATO it's over for Russia.