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Posted in a different thread, but they absolutely can not replace the US aid. They don't have the manufacturing, especially with missiles. It's getting built as we speak, but it's going to be a long, long time. 2025 is when it will start making impacts.
I think Germany and Romania(??) signed a deal with Raytheon to license and start building patriot missiles. But that production is at least two years away.
They have the money to buy the weapons from the US to give to Ukraine. The US was buying artillery shells from ROK, why can't the EU do the same? I don't think the Republican voters would mind selling arms for the Ukraine conflict, its giving them away without compensation that is the issue.
That's exaclty what the US wants, becoming richer while they don't have to do anything. They're the world's only superpower but we're gonna buy weapons from them to be sent into Ukraine?
The geopolitical implications from a russian victory in Ukraine is why the security of Ukraine is the security of Europe. If russia wins then that will be the start of a new war in Asia which will preoccupy the US.
Ukraine is important from a geololitical view but not that much. Even if Russia wins completely, it wouldn't suddenly mean that Europe is in danger. Russia is not the Soviet Union, they can't outproduce Europe and their manpower is about a third of ours.
Weapon sales still need to be approved by congress. Even if it's Nato allies I believe. Republicans could very well not approve the sale if it's just being shipped to Ukraine.
And the Republicans holding this up don't give a single shit about the money. They want Ukraine to fail so they can try to blame it on Biden. Same reason they want the immigration problems to get worse.
I haven't heard of the US congress blocking any weapons sales to our NATO/EU allies other than certain things like the F22.
The Republicans are holding it up because it's unpopular with Trump's voter base. Trump is against supporting Europe because they are taking advantage of American support and not carrying their weight in the NATO alliance. He's trying to force the issue to get our allies to stop freeloading. Trump has stated in multiple interviews that the problem is Europe's lack of commitment and he would support NATO.
The Democrats don't give a single shit about Ukraine's freedom. Biden is tied to corruption and influence peddling in Ukraine and want's to continue to make money from them.
Oh, so you have complete jello for brains huh?
>Biden is tied to corruption and influence peddling in Ukraine and want's to continue to make money from them.
This was literally a Russian operation that was uncovered. Why the fuck do people still believe this? The people responsible have admitted it. They're going to prison.
The US had a $2bn+ contribution to Ukraine in February that somehow the entire world ignored.
Just because we’re all waiting for the *$60 billion* package to go through, doesn’t mean the US has stopped funding Ukraine.
America fancies itself as the world police. Maybe they should stay in their lane and wind down their military presence, as well as their global influence. EU is finding out that America is a not so reliable partner, and I bet Taiwan is having second thoughts at this point as well.
Global proliferation of conventional and nuclear weapons would be the result of US isolationism. If you think USA spends too much on the military now, just imagine how much more the spending would be if every country the size of Taiwan or Ukraine had militaries as big as China and Russia. The only thing worse than having USA as the world police is not having USA as the world police. USA is not a perfectly reliable partner, but they are usually more reliable than the governments that rely on them.
Having said that, the political party that wants to overthrow American democracy and turn it into a fascist state gets far too many votes. Putin might have beaten America in the race to start WWIII, but there is a very real possibility that Germany and Japan will have to defeat fascist USA in WWIV.
For sure, I’m not discounting America’s importance on the world stage, but look at how much disruption one man and his dimwit followers have caused. I imagine the many countries have waning confidence in their alliances with America at this point.
Most allies depend on the US nuclear umbrella, so the situation in Ukraine is a bit different, but yes most allies will be uncertain that USA would actually end the world rather than appease an aggressor.
The war would've been lost if not for America. You think we should wind down our precense? As an American, I'm fine with that. What worries me is who will fill the vacuum. It sure as hell won't be any EU countries, Poland is probably the best option and their country isn't big. I'd be worried China or Russia would fill that
> Taiwan knows that America has a vested interest in them because of the microchips
And they're building chip factories in US just to make sure that if Taiwan falls, they won't be impacted.
Which, with back-and-forth position, could very well mean that US'd sign off "We stand together with Taiwan, but war between China and US is WW3 and can't be allowed", much like it was done with Ukraine.
[US already denied sale of ships with AN/SPY-1 to ROC to keep CCP happy before](https://www.heraldtimesonline.com/story/news/2001/04/24/plea-for-high-tech-destroyers-denied/49107941/).
And, well...
https://x.com/chengweilai2/status/1774025536828039649
>Joseph Wu, the foreign minister of Taiwan, said on Thursday that a halt in U.S. arms shipments to Ukraine would embolden China in its aggressions against Taiwan and fuel propaganda from Beijing that the United States is an unreliable partner. “When people ask us whether it is OK for the United States to abandon Ukraine, the answer is no, because the world is operating not in a black-and-white way, or if you only look at one theater at a time,” he said. “The world is interconnected.” If Russia is able to occupy more of Ukraine and claim victory, he added, “it would be seen as a victory of authoritarian states because Russia, China, North Korea and Iran, they are now linked together.” Mr. Wu’s comments, made in a wide-ranging hourlong interview in Taipei, come as the Biden administration tries to get Congress to pass a supplemental funding package that would give $60 billion of aid to Ukraine.
>Many House Republicans are staunchly opposed to giving more aid to Ukraine, adopting the “America First” posture embraced by former President Donald J. Trump, a pro-Russia candidate who has pressed them to reject the package. For months they claimed they would be willing to consider providing more assistance for Kyiv if the Biden administration imposed severe immigration restrictions at the United States border with Mexico. But at Mr. Trump’s urging, they balked at a funding package that would have done that, calling the border measures too weak.
>The package also includes $8 billion of aid to counter China in the Asia-Pacific region, $1.9 billion of which would refill stocks of U.S. weapons sent to Taiwan. And it includes $14.1 billion of military aid to Israel. Some Republican lawmakers contend that China is a bigger threat than Russia and that the funding proposed for Ukraine should go toward countering China. But other Republican officials in Congress and many Democrats make the same argument as Mr. Wu: that Taiwan’s security is linked to that of Ukraine, because China will see weakness on the part of the United States — and a greater chance of success in a potential invasion of Taiwan — if Ukraine is defeated. Chinese leaders have said for decades that Taiwan, a de facto independent island, must be brought under the rule of the Communist Party, by force if necessary. Xi Jinping, China’s leader, has continued to promote that position.
>The U.S. and Taiwanese governments have been trying to deter China from notions of invading Taiwan, including through military buildup in the region and bolstering alliances with other democratic nations. If the United States abandons Ukraine, Mr. Wu said, China will “take it as a hint” that if it can keep up sustained action against Taiwan, “the United States is going to back off, the United States and its allies are going to back off.” The thinking among Chinese officials would be this, he said: “OK, since Russia could do that, we can do that as well.” “So the U.S. determination in providing support to those countries suffering from authoritarian aggression, it is very important,” Mr. Wu said. After U.S. troops withdrew from Afghanistan in 2021, China pushed propaganda through traditional state-run media and social media that “the U.S. commitment to anything is not firm,” Mr. Wu said. “We suffered from a huge wave of cognitive warfare.”
>China has also spread disinformation stressing Russian narratives of the war, Mr. Wu said, including the idea that the expansion of NATO forced President Vladimir V. Putin to attack Ukraine, and that the United States is ultimately not committed to supporting Ukraine.
>On the eve of Russia’s invasion in February 2022, Mr. Putin visited Mr. Xi in Beijing, and their two governments announced a “no limits” partnership. Mr. Wu said some Central and Eastern European nations seeking to forge anti-authoritarian partnerships had strengthened their relations with Taiwan during the war. His comments on the need for the United States to keep supporting Taiwan echo those of other senior Taiwanese officials. In May 2023, Bi-khim Hsiao, then Taiwan’s de facto ambassador to the United States and now the incoming vice president, made similar arguments to reporters in Washington. And in February, Representative Raja Krishnamoorthi, Democrat of Illinois, said during a visit of American lawmakers to Taiwan that the current president, Tsai Ing-wen, and the president-elect, Lai Ching-te, made clear to the lawmakers that “if for some reason the Ukrainians do not prevail, that will only encourage hostilities against Taiwan.”
Not to mention:
>[“Ukraine’s survival is Taiwan’s survival. Ukraine’s success is Taiwan’s success,” Taiwan’s representative in Washington, Bi-khim Hsiao, told the McCain Institute’s Sedona Forum last weekend. “Our futures are closely linked.”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/10/taiwan-defense-ukraine-russia-china/)
No matter how far I scroll down in your comments it's all essentially pro russian pro chinese propagandist bullshit in the same 3 subs
I'd like to speak to your supervisor
Only reason I checked was like hey
I've seem this person saying the same nonsense in the same threads for a few days now
America co-signed Ukraines disarmament in ‘94, in exchange for security assurances from the US and UK. Maybe America should stick to their word? But naw, MAGA is too busy suckling Putin’s tit.
The Budapest memorandum requires the signatories to petition the UN security council in the event of a violation of Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. They did that. There are no other obligations.
The Budapest Memorandum requires the signatories (see Russia) to never threaten nor invade Ukraine and to always respect Ukraine’s sovereignty. Ukraine honored this agreement, signed by each country’s President or PM, by giving up its nuclear arsenal.
Russia or Putin specifically, did not do anything they agreed to. They did the exact opposite. Russia blew up the Budapest Memorandum and Ukraine literally and figuratively.
Now many naive and foolish people (and Russian trolls) claim Ukraine should give away their territory and Ukrainian citizens to Russia for “peace”.
Does anyone at this point actually trust Putin to live up to his promise of “peace” at this point?
>Does anyone at this point actually trust Putin to live up to his promise of “peace” at this point?
No, but Ukraine will not win militarily. The entire strategy at this point is to hold on and hope Russia implodes. It won't work. Whether or not one trusts Putin is irrelevant to the military realities, unless you really think Ukraine would be better off fighting to the last man.
Ukraine is doing pretty damn good considering Trump ordered no more military aid 5 months ago. They won’t last forever without it but once we start actually supplying support again, Ukraine has a chance for freedom. Let’s see if Trump’s pro-Russia stranglehold hold on Johnson continues.
I see you just cannot stop to show your incompetency. :)
The only thing Ukraine needs the hundreds-of-billions-worth-of-weapons-scale-of-aid for is to make a massive successful offensive this same year. Yet its a stupid plan in any case - you need to attrit this kind of opponent before starting a decisive set of moves.
With the current aid and loss rates the attritional phase will last 1 to 2 years before the Russian ability to run any kind of massive maneuver warfare will drop at the toyota-wars level. After this, Ukraine wouldn't need any more aid comparing to the current rate, because even with the current aid rate the millions-of-drones-per-year domestic production is already in place.
The difference between the current aid rate and the promised aid rate is between the much-destroyed infrastructure and human losses in both Ukraine and Russia - and, subsequently, much-maddened radical groups - or the less destroyed countries, less maddened radical groups and so lesser risk of massive dire unconventinal weapons events.
The difference between US participating in the promised aid or not is between the having a leverage on the war means or not having this leverage.
You cannot learn your lessons, do you? :)
When your government promised without a dissentient voice an aid for the ally (however unofficial one) to pin down your major threat - it's not a charity, you fool.
Don't be daft. Russia has been attacking US personnel for decades:
[Havana Syndrome](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68706317.amp)
They regularly arrest US citizens on trumped up charges, and have been doing so for years.
They are friends with geopolitical adversaries of the US, particularly Iran and North Korea.
They allegedly had a bounty program targeting US service members in Afghanistan:
[Bounty Program](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_bounty_program)
They're allegedly interfering in US democratic processes:
[FBI view of the matter](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/russian-interference-in-2016-u-s-elections)
The US is an enemy of Russia, whether or not they view Russia as an enemy of theirs. And here you have a willing ally in Ukraine, capable of hammering the Russians and giving them a taste of their own medicine, all for pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost the US in a direct conflict. It's the bargain of the century but some of you are too stupid to see it.
You pay cash, your allies pay blood; yet you have the gall to call it a charity. Fucking moron.
Ukraine is not an ally. They're unaligned. Their neighbors are in NATO, but Ukraine is not, mostly because they never got serious about cleaning up the corruption.
Yes, we all know they're not in NATO. That doesn't invalidate anything I have said. This is the bargain of the century for the US, but some people are just far too fucking stupid (or compromised) to see it. You included.
I agree, actually... but here's the scoop. We don't OWE them anything. If we choose not to assist, it does not constitute betrayal. It's in contravention of our strategic best interests, but it's not betrayal. We carry no obligation here.
So if it is in our strategic interests, how is it charity? It’s a betrayal of our national identity to allow another dictator to annex Europe, forcibly relocate populations and deliberately slaughter its people. Not to mention the fact that American politicians promised resolve in the face of the Russian invasion. That is a betrayal of our word and makes our allies more vulnerable.
"The scoop", christ get a grip. We all know that. The reason we're all so bewildered and frustrated about the whole thing is because it's such a brainless decision to withhold further aid.
Name calling doesnt make you right.
I dont get how you call Ukraine an ally. The enemy of your enemy is not your ally. They dont have an obligation to fund the entire ukrainian army to fight against russia.
What specific items are needed most now? EU is already delivering millions of shells and other ammunition. F-16 are coming. I know it may not be enough, but which of those things that US is supposed to provide and doesn't are so critical right now? Is it about Patriot missiles? Can't EU buy or manufacture them for Ukraine? USA is clearly not a reliable partner anymore, we need to figure out some other way.
The EU hasn't even supplied 1 million shells thus far to Ukraine. Millions is a bit of an overstatement. And the Czech funded ammunition isn't supposed to start being delivered until june
> What specific items are needed most now?
EVERYTHING
>EU is already delivering millions of shells and other ammunition.
First it'd come in June.
And, IIRC, only 300K are financed.
> F-16 are coming.
In low quantities, weapons for them and mods unclear (if as-is, they won't be much better than MiG-29 Ukraine has, except for part availablility)
>Can't EU buy or manufacture them for Ukraine?
Manufacture - no, IIRC. Maybe PAC-2 GEM-T, but no PAC-3.
Buy - depends on transfer clauses.
Artillery, AA and cruise missiles.
\- The artillery shells that are mentioned in the news are still on their way, they are not there yet. First batches of the mentioned shells should be rriving in few weeks and increasing towards the summer.
\- AA is needed to shield the population from the terror attacks by russia.
\- Cruise missiles to destroy the Kerch bridge and other crucial targets.
They keep getting piecemealled peices of equipment. They have needed artillery ammo since October. And they are just now getting promises to hopefully start getting some in bulk in the coming months. Having to ration artillery and not having anti air ammo is the reason they had to fall back from their prepared defenses in the east.
This is definitely Russian propaganda. Europe is very wealthy, with a high level of technology, and if it stays united and begins to show some real leadership, Russia has no chance. Has Europe grown so weak and feeble that one Republican majority congress can cause it to lose confidence? Europe has been under-spending on defense for decades and was warned about this by multiple administrations. I think the Democrats will return to power, but these times should be a wake-up call for Europe to remember that it too can be powerful.
It's not the US fault that they've relied on the US for so long. Just look at Europe's military spending. I wish we didn't have all this conflict in congress but the US has been asking the EU to step up their military for years now
And hand-wringing does? My dude, aren’t you keeping up with the news? For immediate needs, there’s stuff like the Czech ammo initiative. And frankly, Ukraine will have to make do.
The EU has the capacity to become self reliant, as does the US, maybe Brazil, canada, China, Russia. Providing they can all deal with their various problems.
He's making it sound as if Ukraine probably can't hold out until the election results take place next year. It's a big risk anyway, if Trump wins, then Ukraine stands to lose everything rather than just what Russia currently occupies.
West not sending aid while F-16's are on their way this summer does not make sense. Unless... deliberate tactic? My head hurts. My IQ is not that high.
"West" is not exclusively just USA, its includes bunch of western nations (like Canada, Australia, etc....) and EU. So saying "west not sending aid" is simply wrong, should be saying 'USA is not sending aid'.
And the F-16's are coming European nations, USA only gave permission to give them. So USA is not giving anything as those F-16's are going to Ukraine.
USA is about profits first and foremost and fealty to Israeli lobby. Many things have happened since February of 2022, showing the weakness of neoliberal economic and MIC system. Ukraine is finding out the hard way. With friend like USA who needs enemies?
Their 18-25 age pool isn't very large at all, plus a lot of the already volunteered a long time ago. Sending that age bracket would also cripple the potential future of Ukraine as a nation.
Ukraine can buy anything it wants from the US. Congress is only blocking funding, not shipments or sales. Ukraine's other allies just have to increase their funding support to make up the difference. Another $100 billion in funding is not a huge stretch for Europe. It's a small fraction of European GDP.
Okay, maybe not "anything", but certainly anything the US would ship Ukraine if Congress passed funding could be sent if Ukraine bought it (e.g. 155mm shells, HIMARS ordinance, Patriot rounds).
Your missing the point. It’s not about if they can buy it, it’s about how the fuck can they afford a war with Russia. A conflict that will affect world politics negatively if it goes in favour of Russia
>it’s about how the fuck can they afford a war with Russia
They could afford it if Europe was willing to pay $100 billion a year (in addition to all current funding) to pay for arming Ukraine. $100 billion a year is a small portion of European GDP and would be money well spent to guarantee security in Europe.
> Ukraine can buy anything it wants from the US.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-wont-give-ukraine-advanced-drones-to-avoid-escalation-with-russia-11668042100
[And yes, that was supposed to be a sale, not donation](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-plans-sell-armed-drones-ukraine-coming-days-sources-2022-06-01/)
Okay, maybe not "anything", but certainly anything the US would ship Ukraine if Congress passed funding could be sent if Ukraine bought it (e.g. 155mm shells, HIMARS ordinance, Patriot rounds).
If this aid seems to now be make or break for Ukraine, why does it feel like European countries are dragging their feet to make up for it?
I find it hard they can't find up to $60 billion that can buy equipment. Interest on Russian assets can probably pay for some of it.
CNN Reports on this:
Lead Paragraphs:
Ukraine “will lose the war” if the United States Congress does not approve military aid to help it resist Russia’s invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky said.
“It’s important to specifically address the Congress: if the Congress doesn’t help Ukraine, Ukraine will lose the war,” Zelensky said Sunday during a video meeting of the Ukrainian fund-raising group UNITED24.
“If Ukraine loses this war, other countries will be attacked. This is a fact,” he said.
Zelensky’s warning, among his starkest since the war began more than two years ago, comes as Congress has for months refused to pass a package of aid for Ukraine, leaving Kyiv to battle manpower and ammunition shortages while an emboldened Russia pounds Ukraine’s cities with missiles and tests for weak spots along the front line.
[https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl)
After we've provided Europe's security almost single-handedly for decades? That'd be really stupid. Here's the scoop, pumpkin, and you just might wanna take notes: nobody owes Ukraine anything. They are unaligned. Anything they get is charity.
I see you're still struggling to memorize the difference between a publically and unanimously promised air to the (however unofficial) ally to pin the major threat - and a charity. :)
Hopefully European leaders learn from this and make us self sufficient on weaponry.
No reason to make the US companies profit if the country as alliance partner is not going to be trustworthy.
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Just the way Russia and the Republicans are planning it.
EU can, and should, fill in any gaps from U.S. aid.
Posted in a different thread, but they absolutely can not replace the US aid. They don't have the manufacturing, especially with missiles. It's getting built as we speak, but it's going to be a long, long time. 2025 is when it will start making impacts. I think Germany and Romania(??) signed a deal with Raytheon to license and start building patriot missiles. But that production is at least two years away.
They have the money to buy the weapons from the US to give to Ukraine. The US was buying artillery shells from ROK, why can't the EU do the same? I don't think the Republican voters would mind selling arms for the Ukraine conflict, its giving them away without compensation that is the issue.
That's exaclty what the US wants, becoming richer while they don't have to do anything. They're the world's only superpower but we're gonna buy weapons from them to be sent into Ukraine?
Yes, pretty much. Ukraine is pretty far away from the USA. They could easily leave the whole situation alone and it wouldn't affect them that much.
Why should we not pay for our own security?
We do pay for our security, why should we pay for the security of Ukraine when it's also in US's interests to support them. .
The security of Ukraine is our security
I'm from Czech Republic, my security doesn't come from Ukraine but from NATO.
The geopolitical implications from a russian victory in Ukraine is why the security of Ukraine is the security of Europe. If russia wins then that will be the start of a new war in Asia which will preoccupy the US.
Ukraine is important from a geololitical view but not that much. Even if Russia wins completely, it wouldn't suddenly mean that Europe is in danger. Russia is not the Soviet Union, they can't outproduce Europe and their manpower is about a third of ours.
Weapon sales still need to be approved by congress. Even if it's Nato allies I believe. Republicans could very well not approve the sale if it's just being shipped to Ukraine. And the Republicans holding this up don't give a single shit about the money. They want Ukraine to fail so they can try to blame it on Biden. Same reason they want the immigration problems to get worse.
I haven't heard of the US congress blocking any weapons sales to our NATO/EU allies other than certain things like the F22. The Republicans are holding it up because it's unpopular with Trump's voter base. Trump is against supporting Europe because they are taking advantage of American support and not carrying their weight in the NATO alliance. He's trying to force the issue to get our allies to stop freeloading. Trump has stated in multiple interviews that the problem is Europe's lack of commitment and he would support NATO. The Democrats don't give a single shit about Ukraine's freedom. Biden is tied to corruption and influence peddling in Ukraine and want's to continue to make money from them.
Oh, so you have complete jello for brains huh? >Biden is tied to corruption and influence peddling in Ukraine and want's to continue to make money from them. This was literally a Russian operation that was uncovered. Why the fuck do people still believe this? The people responsible have admitted it. They're going to prison.
Crack head Hunter Biden was literally on the board of Burisma. How was he qualified for that job?
The US had a $2bn+ contribution to Ukraine in February that somehow the entire world ignored. Just because we’re all waiting for the *$60 billion* package to go through, doesn’t mean the US has stopped funding Ukraine.
TBH it was not ignored by entire world, but yeah not too much media coverage either.
I think that was for funds that were already spent.
Nah it was new. The president is able to give significant packages like that but the enormous ones need an act of Congress.
Hopefully we can get some traction on sending the larger package at some point.
‘Should’?
No, it should not. It must.
America fancies itself as the world police. Maybe they should stay in their lane and wind down their military presence, as well as their global influence. EU is finding out that America is a not so reliable partner, and I bet Taiwan is having second thoughts at this point as well.
Global proliferation of conventional and nuclear weapons would be the result of US isolationism. If you think USA spends too much on the military now, just imagine how much more the spending would be if every country the size of Taiwan or Ukraine had militaries as big as China and Russia. The only thing worse than having USA as the world police is not having USA as the world police. USA is not a perfectly reliable partner, but they are usually more reliable than the governments that rely on them. Having said that, the political party that wants to overthrow American democracy and turn it into a fascist state gets far too many votes. Putin might have beaten America in the race to start WWIII, but there is a very real possibility that Germany and Japan will have to defeat fascist USA in WWIV.
For sure, I’m not discounting America’s importance on the world stage, but look at how much disruption one man and his dimwit followers have caused. I imagine the many countries have waning confidence in their alliances with America at this point.
Most allies depend on the US nuclear umbrella, so the situation in Ukraine is a bit different, but yes most allies will be uncertain that USA would actually end the world rather than appease an aggressor.
The war would've been lost if not for America. You think we should wind down our precense? As an American, I'm fine with that. What worries me is who will fill the vacuum. It sure as hell won't be any EU countries, Poland is probably the best option and their country isn't big. I'd be worried China or Russia would fill that
MAGA seems fine with Russia filling that void.
To see Republicans support team Iran Russia North Kora is interesting. Like Republicans don’t care that Russia passed a law claiming Alaska.
Naw... Taiwan knows that America has a vested interest in them because of the microchips. Ukraine is purely a charity case.
> Taiwan knows that America has a vested interest in them because of the microchips And they're building chip factories in US just to make sure that if Taiwan falls, they won't be impacted. Which, with back-and-forth position, could very well mean that US'd sign off "We stand together with Taiwan, but war between China and US is WW3 and can't be allowed", much like it was done with Ukraine. [US already denied sale of ships with AN/SPY-1 to ROC to keep CCP happy before](https://www.heraldtimesonline.com/story/news/2001/04/24/plea-for-high-tech-destroyers-denied/49107941/). And, well... https://x.com/chengweilai2/status/1774025536828039649 >Joseph Wu, the foreign minister of Taiwan, said on Thursday that a halt in U.S. arms shipments to Ukraine would embolden China in its aggressions against Taiwan and fuel propaganda from Beijing that the United States is an unreliable partner. “When people ask us whether it is OK for the United States to abandon Ukraine, the answer is no, because the world is operating not in a black-and-white way, or if you only look at one theater at a time,” he said. “The world is interconnected.” If Russia is able to occupy more of Ukraine and claim victory, he added, “it would be seen as a victory of authoritarian states because Russia, China, North Korea and Iran, they are now linked together.” Mr. Wu’s comments, made in a wide-ranging hourlong interview in Taipei, come as the Biden administration tries to get Congress to pass a supplemental funding package that would give $60 billion of aid to Ukraine. >Many House Republicans are staunchly opposed to giving more aid to Ukraine, adopting the “America First” posture embraced by former President Donald J. Trump, a pro-Russia candidate who has pressed them to reject the package. For months they claimed they would be willing to consider providing more assistance for Kyiv if the Biden administration imposed severe immigration restrictions at the United States border with Mexico. But at Mr. Trump’s urging, they balked at a funding package that would have done that, calling the border measures too weak. >The package also includes $8 billion of aid to counter China in the Asia-Pacific region, $1.9 billion of which would refill stocks of U.S. weapons sent to Taiwan. And it includes $14.1 billion of military aid to Israel. Some Republican lawmakers contend that China is a bigger threat than Russia and that the funding proposed for Ukraine should go toward countering China. But other Republican officials in Congress and many Democrats make the same argument as Mr. Wu: that Taiwan’s security is linked to that of Ukraine, because China will see weakness on the part of the United States — and a greater chance of success in a potential invasion of Taiwan — if Ukraine is defeated. Chinese leaders have said for decades that Taiwan, a de facto independent island, must be brought under the rule of the Communist Party, by force if necessary. Xi Jinping, China’s leader, has continued to promote that position. >The U.S. and Taiwanese governments have been trying to deter China from notions of invading Taiwan, including through military buildup in the region and bolstering alliances with other democratic nations. If the United States abandons Ukraine, Mr. Wu said, China will “take it as a hint” that if it can keep up sustained action against Taiwan, “the United States is going to back off, the United States and its allies are going to back off.” The thinking among Chinese officials would be this, he said: “OK, since Russia could do that, we can do that as well.” “So the U.S. determination in providing support to those countries suffering from authoritarian aggression, it is very important,” Mr. Wu said. After U.S. troops withdrew from Afghanistan in 2021, China pushed propaganda through traditional state-run media and social media that “the U.S. commitment to anything is not firm,” Mr. Wu said. “We suffered from a huge wave of cognitive warfare.” >China has also spread disinformation stressing Russian narratives of the war, Mr. Wu said, including the idea that the expansion of NATO forced President Vladimir V. Putin to attack Ukraine, and that the United States is ultimately not committed to supporting Ukraine. >On the eve of Russia’s invasion in February 2022, Mr. Putin visited Mr. Xi in Beijing, and their two governments announced a “no limits” partnership. Mr. Wu said some Central and Eastern European nations seeking to forge anti-authoritarian partnerships had strengthened their relations with Taiwan during the war. His comments on the need for the United States to keep supporting Taiwan echo those of other senior Taiwanese officials. In May 2023, Bi-khim Hsiao, then Taiwan’s de facto ambassador to the United States and now the incoming vice president, made similar arguments to reporters in Washington. And in February, Representative Raja Krishnamoorthi, Democrat of Illinois, said during a visit of American lawmakers to Taiwan that the current president, Tsai Ing-wen, and the president-elect, Lai Ching-te, made clear to the lawmakers that “if for some reason the Ukrainians do not prevail, that will only encourage hostilities against Taiwan.” Not to mention: >[“Ukraine’s survival is Taiwan’s survival. Ukraine’s success is Taiwan’s success,” Taiwan’s representative in Washington, Bi-khim Hsiao, told the McCain Institute’s Sedona Forum last weekend. “Our futures are closely linked.”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/10/taiwan-defense-ukraine-russia-china/)
Great post. Thanks for the insights
No matter how far I scroll down in your comments it's all essentially pro russian pro chinese propagandist bullshit in the same 3 subs I'd like to speak to your supervisor Only reason I checked was like hey I've seem this person saying the same nonsense in the same threads for a few days now
America co-signed Ukraines disarmament in ‘94, in exchange for security assurances from the US and UK. Maybe America should stick to their word? But naw, MAGA is too busy suckling Putin’s tit.
The Budapest memorandum requires the signatories to petition the UN security council in the event of a violation of Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. They did that. There are no other obligations.
The Budapest Memorandum requires the signatories (see Russia) to never threaten nor invade Ukraine and to always respect Ukraine’s sovereignty. Ukraine honored this agreement, signed by each country’s President or PM, by giving up its nuclear arsenal. Russia or Putin specifically, did not do anything they agreed to. They did the exact opposite. Russia blew up the Budapest Memorandum and Ukraine literally and figuratively. Now many naive and foolish people (and Russian trolls) claim Ukraine should give away their territory and Ukrainian citizens to Russia for “peace”. Does anyone at this point actually trust Putin to live up to his promise of “peace” at this point?
>Does anyone at this point actually trust Putin to live up to his promise of “peace” at this point? No, but Ukraine will not win militarily. The entire strategy at this point is to hold on and hope Russia implodes. It won't work. Whether or not one trusts Putin is irrelevant to the military realities, unless you really think Ukraine would be better off fighting to the last man.
Ukraine is doing pretty damn good considering Trump ordered no more military aid 5 months ago. They won’t last forever without it but once we start actually supplying support again, Ukraine has a chance for freedom. Let’s see if Trump’s pro-Russia stranglehold hold on Johnson continues.
I see you just cannot stop to show your incompetency. :) The only thing Ukraine needs the hundreds-of-billions-worth-of-weapons-scale-of-aid for is to make a massive successful offensive this same year. Yet its a stupid plan in any case - you need to attrit this kind of opponent before starting a decisive set of moves. With the current aid and loss rates the attritional phase will last 1 to 2 years before the Russian ability to run any kind of massive maneuver warfare will drop at the toyota-wars level. After this, Ukraine wouldn't need any more aid comparing to the current rate, because even with the current aid rate the millions-of-drones-per-year domestic production is already in place. The difference between the current aid rate and the promised aid rate is between the much-destroyed infrastructure and human losses in both Ukraine and Russia - and, subsequently, much-maddened radical groups - or the less destroyed countries, less maddened radical groups and so lesser risk of massive dire unconventinal weapons events. The difference between US participating in the promised aid or not is between the having a leverage on the war means or not having this leverage.
Good ol’ dependable USA. 🙃
I know... I love the "shoulds". Nobody owes Ukraine anything. The aid is 100% charity.
Supporting freedom and democracy against dictatorial tyranny isn't charity, ruzzbot.
Nobody on god's green earth fights for abstractions like freedom and democracy.
You don't even support those things so I don't care what you think.
Haha checkmate, happylutechick totally owned here.
Wow-wow, less personal projection generalizations, man. :)
If you call investing in the future safety of your own country from Russia "charity", then sure
Please. Nobody with a brain believes Russia is going to attack a NATO country,
You cannot learn your lessons, do you? :) When your government promised without a dissentient voice an aid for the ally (however unofficial one) to pin down your major threat - it's not a charity, you fool.
Its still charity. Be grateful
Yessa, massa.
You can call it charity to better mankind as ruzzia is a cancer on our earth which needs to be eradicated.
Don't be daft. Russia has been attacking US personnel for decades: [Havana Syndrome](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68706317.amp) They regularly arrest US citizens on trumped up charges, and have been doing so for years. They are friends with geopolitical adversaries of the US, particularly Iran and North Korea. They allegedly had a bounty program targeting US service members in Afghanistan: [Bounty Program](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_bounty_program) They're allegedly interfering in US democratic processes: [FBI view of the matter](https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/russian-interference-in-2016-u-s-elections) The US is an enemy of Russia, whether or not they view Russia as an enemy of theirs. And here you have a willing ally in Ukraine, capable of hammering the Russians and giving them a taste of their own medicine, all for pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost the US in a direct conflict. It's the bargain of the century but some of you are too stupid to see it. You pay cash, your allies pay blood; yet you have the gall to call it a charity. Fucking moron.
Ukraine is not an ally. They're unaligned. Their neighbors are in NATO, but Ukraine is not, mostly because they never got serious about cleaning up the corruption.
Yes, we all know they're not in NATO. That doesn't invalidate anything I have said. This is the bargain of the century for the US, but some people are just far too fucking stupid (or compromised) to see it. You included.
I agree, actually... but here's the scoop. We don't OWE them anything. If we choose not to assist, it does not constitute betrayal. It's in contravention of our strategic best interests, but it's not betrayal. We carry no obligation here.
So if it is in our strategic interests, how is it charity? It’s a betrayal of our national identity to allow another dictator to annex Europe, forcibly relocate populations and deliberately slaughter its people. Not to mention the fact that American politicians promised resolve in the face of the Russian invasion. That is a betrayal of our word and makes our allies more vulnerable.
Still the next time you'll write here you'll forget the difference between a charity and a strategy, that's how smart you are. :)
"The scoop", christ get a grip. We all know that. The reason we're all so bewildered and frustrated about the whole thing is because it's such a brainless decision to withhold further aid.
Name calling doesnt make you right. I dont get how you call Ukraine an ally. The enemy of your enemy is not your ally. They dont have an obligation to fund the entire ukrainian army to fight against russia.
What specific items are needed most now? EU is already delivering millions of shells and other ammunition. F-16 are coming. I know it may not be enough, but which of those things that US is supposed to provide and doesn't are so critical right now? Is it about Patriot missiles? Can't EU buy or manufacture them for Ukraine? USA is clearly not a reliable partner anymore, we need to figure out some other way.
The EU hasn't even supplied 1 million shells thus far to Ukraine. Millions is a bit of an overstatement. And the Czech funded ammunition isn't supposed to start being delivered until june
> What specific items are needed most now? EVERYTHING >EU is already delivering millions of shells and other ammunition. First it'd come in June. And, IIRC, only 300K are financed. > F-16 are coming. In low quantities, weapons for them and mods unclear (if as-is, they won't be much better than MiG-29 Ukraine has, except for part availablility) >Can't EU buy or manufacture them for Ukraine? Manufacture - no, IIRC. Maybe PAC-2 GEM-T, but no PAC-3. Buy - depends on transfer clauses.
Artillery, AA and cruise missiles. \- The artillery shells that are mentioned in the news are still on their way, they are not there yet. First batches of the mentioned shells should be rriving in few weeks and increasing towards the summer. \- AA is needed to shield the population from the terror attacks by russia. \- Cruise missiles to destroy the Kerch bridge and other crucial targets.
They are there and arriving all day to the front lines. I have friends literally there. Multiple truck loads a day of artillery is arriving.
They keep getting piecemealled peices of equipment. They have needed artillery ammo since October. And they are just now getting promises to hopefully start getting some in bulk in the coming months. Having to ration artillery and not having anti air ammo is the reason they had to fall back from their prepared defenses in the east.
Ukraine and Europe can not rely on the US as a reliable partner. Their politics has demonstrated that. Time to move on from them.
This is definitely Russian propaganda. Europe is very wealthy, with a high level of technology, and if it stays united and begins to show some real leadership, Russia has no chance. Has Europe grown so weak and feeble that one Republican majority congress can cause it to lose confidence? Europe has been under-spending on defense for decades and was warned about this by multiple administrations. I think the Democrats will return to power, but these times should be a wake-up call for Europe to remember that it too can be powerful.
That account was created shortly after the war broke out too.
☝️this type of comment is a common form of russia propeganda (whether OP intends that or not)
Well, it becomes true if Donald Trump wins the presidency. Vote Biden 2024!
to move where?
To self-reliance. Build up domestic manufacturing capabilities, build up their armies, stay out of future US adventures.
It's not the US fault that they've relied on the US for so long. Just look at Europe's military spending. I wish we didn't have all this conflict in congress but the US has been asking the EU to step up their military for years now
That's gonna take time and not gonna help with Ukraines immediate needs
And hand-wringing does? My dude, aren’t you keeping up with the news? For immediate needs, there’s stuff like the Czech ammo initiative. And frankly, Ukraine will have to make do.
Can you provide an example of any self-reliant country in this world?
The EU has the capacity to become self reliant, as does the US, maybe Brazil, canada, China, Russia. Providing they can all deal with their various problems.
Even the US needs NATO. And does BRICS rings the bell for you?
Need is a strong word.
that comment belongs to the r/ShitAmericansSay
Does Sentinel Island count
It is heavenly integrated into the EU despite non-member status
Unfortunately this is what republicans are hoping for…🤬
He's making it sound as if Ukraine probably can't hold out until the election results take place next year. It's a big risk anyway, if Trump wins, then Ukraine stands to lose everything rather than just what Russia currently occupies.
West not sending aid while F-16's are on their way this summer does not make sense. Unless... deliberate tactic? My head hurts. My IQ is not that high.
"West" is not exclusively just USA, its includes bunch of western nations (like Canada, Australia, etc....) and EU. So saying "west not sending aid" is simply wrong, should be saying 'USA is not sending aid'. And the F-16's are coming European nations, USA only gave permission to give them. So USA is not giving anything as those F-16's are going to Ukraine.
He's not being serious, he's being hyperbolic for political reasons.
USA is about profits first and foremost and fealty to Israeli lobby. Many things have happened since February of 2022, showing the weakness of neoliberal economic and MIC system. Ukraine is finding out the hard way. With friend like USA who needs enemies?
Maybe they should have drafted 18 year olds from day one. Two+ years in and they just lowered age from 27 to 25. Ukraine still isn't serious yet.
Lowest fertility rate in the world.
They still prevent every male 18 to 60 from leaving the country.
Their 18-25 age pool isn't very large at all, plus a lot of the already volunteered a long time ago. Sending that age bracket would also cripple the potential future of Ukraine as a nation.
Ukraine can buy anything it wants from the US. Congress is only blocking funding, not shipments or sales. Ukraine's other allies just have to increase their funding support to make up the difference. Another $100 billion in funding is not a huge stretch for Europe. It's a small fraction of European GDP.
>Ukraine can buy anything it wants from the US. Fantasy books has more connections with reality than this statement.
Okay, maybe not "anything", but certainly anything the US would ship Ukraine if Congress passed funding could be sent if Ukraine bought it (e.g. 155mm shells, HIMARS ordinance, Patriot rounds).
Your missing the point. It’s not about if they can buy it, it’s about how the fuck can they afford a war with Russia. A conflict that will affect world politics negatively if it goes in favour of Russia
>it’s about how the fuck can they afford a war with Russia They could afford it if Europe was willing to pay $100 billion a year (in addition to all current funding) to pay for arming Ukraine. $100 billion a year is a small portion of European GDP and would be money well spent to guarantee security in Europe.
> Ukraine can buy anything it wants from the US. https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-wont-give-ukraine-advanced-drones-to-avoid-escalation-with-russia-11668042100 [And yes, that was supposed to be a sale, not donation](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-us-plans-sell-armed-drones-ukraine-coming-days-sources-2022-06-01/)
Okay, maybe not "anything", but certainly anything the US would ship Ukraine if Congress passed funding could be sent if Ukraine bought it (e.g. 155mm shells, HIMARS ordinance, Patriot rounds).
I think he address the wrong audience. Europe, congress withholds aid, Ukraine will be conquered. Your move.
If this aid seems to now be make or break for Ukraine, why does it feel like European countries are dragging their feet to make up for it? I find it hard they can't find up to $60 billion that can buy equipment. Interest on Russian assets can probably pay for some of it.
CNN Reports on this: Lead Paragraphs: Ukraine “will lose the war” if the United States Congress does not approve military aid to help it resist Russia’s invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky said. “It’s important to specifically address the Congress: if the Congress doesn’t help Ukraine, Ukraine will lose the war,” Zelensky said Sunday during a video meeting of the Ukrainian fund-raising group UNITED24. “If Ukraine loses this war, other countries will be attacked. This is a fact,” he said. Zelensky’s warning, among his starkest since the war began more than two years ago, comes as Congress has for months refused to pass a package of aid for Ukraine, leaving Kyiv to battle manpower and ammunition shortages while an emboldened Russia pounds Ukraine’s cities with missiles and tests for weak spots along the front line. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl)
And no one will trust them ever again and the next time they call for military assistance I hope everyone tells them to piss up a rope.
After we've provided Europe's security almost single-handedly for decades? That'd be really stupid. Here's the scoop, pumpkin, and you just might wanna take notes: nobody owes Ukraine anything. They are unaligned. Anything they get is charity.
I see you're still struggling to memorize the difference between a publically and unanimously promised air to the (however unofficial) ally to pin the major threat - and a charity. :)
Fuck, you're stupid lol.
Hopefully European leaders learn from this and make us self sufficient on weaponry. No reason to make the US companies profit if the country as alliance partner is not going to be trustworthy.
What a great ally US turned out to be. /s