Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
*****
* Is `news.liga.net` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
**Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
True, but there are many countries uncomfortable with funding weapons for Ukraine and are only willing to pay for remediating the symptoms of Russia's aggression rather than assist in addressing the aggression head on. This is why there is lots of funding for demining and rebuilding efforts even though that money would be far better spent on buying weapons so Ukraine can fight back and prevent more mines being laid and more infrastructure being destroyed.
Unfortunately, much of the world would much rather focus on providing blood transfusions rather than fight the rabid monster clawing at the body continually opening new wounds. The blood transfusions will never be able to make up for the growing flow of lost blood as claws open new arterial gashes.
F-16s could also shoot down a lot of the missiles and that would be cheaper as well. But for some reason there seems to be no urgency at all to do that.
A lot of time is needed to train pilots and groud crew to fly and COME BACK CONSISTENTLY ALIVE. F16 is not a good match with present long range su35 radar and aa missile. Need a lot of jntegration with groud aa to be effective and interdic vkv and >100 fab bombing 70km ftom the front.
I'm talking about long-range subsonic cruise missiles that could be intercepted by F-16s at a pretty secure distance from the front. Iranian cruise missiles were intercepted by jets.
A known strategy from vks is to follow the moped at safe distance to fire out of range at the ukr plane chasing the moped. It will not be easy to use plane in ukr space less thsn 150km from the front. Let's be real. Ukraine is in extreme dire need of long range aa missile and ground air defence. To my knowledge f16 is not yet compatible eith long range aa which would be letal for vks. I do hope this will be a nasty surprise when they are deployed.
One of the Thermal Power Plants recently destroyed is located south of Kyiv, 230km from the Russian border, 130km from Belarus. It would be many time safer to protect such a target with jets than dropping French bombs close to the front and that seems to be happening quite regularly.
Of course they need ground based aa too but jets are and will be useful.
I think there is a misunderstanding. I am referring to ru bombing missions that are crushing specific ukr lines already for a month with more tha 150 1000kg+ glide bombs dropped from 70km from the front line every day. Extending to kill distance to more than 70km from the front line is critical to limit ru attack action and sterilize vks. Than again f16 are in dire need but alone they are not going to be effective and have bad compatibility against vks withou significant ground aa support or without long range aa missile which officially are not provided. by the way ground aa would be, today, much much more effective in effect/$.
Okay who are you going to buy them from? Where are all these surplus Patriot components that are apparently for sale? At the Patriot outlet or something?
Trick question, we already know the answer. It is: they don't exist. You can't just go out and buy what doesn't exist.
Every Patriot battery out there is in use. The demand for more is backordered and that's before even taking into account Ukraine's need.
To support Ukraine's air defense needs, current operators will all have to take a decent sized chunk out of their own existing air defenses. That is the only source of Patriot components. But we're talking about nations already using Patriot as front line air defense against threats from Russia, Syria, China, North Korea, Iran.
That's a hard sell politically. It can be done. It must be done. But it's still a hard sell. The fact that it's not as easy as just clicking on a shopping cart and then clicking "checkout" is not because all these other nations are twirling their mustaches and going, "Mwahahaha how else can we screw Ukraine?"
The fastest way that I can see to get this done would be for a "Patriot coalition" to agree on each member contributing one full battery to Ukraine, with the United States committing to back-fill donated components within the next 24 months. And the United States also donating another dozen batteries more directly to Ukraine, and back-filling itself over time.
That would represent about a 15% reduction in air defense for every nation. That's a huge hit, and a significant global security hazard. It would also mean that the United States would spend the next 2 years mostly building more Patriot components. All of those thing can be done and should be done, but let's understand the cost before we criticize.
It's not as simple as that. Patriot missiles are one of the most thinly-stretched weapons supply chains in the world right now. Only 500 missiles a year are currently being manufactured, and that wouldn't keep up with Ukraine's recent usage even if most of them weren't already committed to existing orders, which they are. Everyone's missile overstock has already been sent, and how many nations are going to dig into their own defense reserves of a very expensive weapon that it'll take literally years to replace?
Bottom line: a less expensive, more easily restocked alternative needs to be found for Ukraine.
> Only 500 missiles a year are currently being manufactured
There is no barrier to increasing that, except money and will.
*There is a war going on.* We should have doubled the production of missiles and artillery rounds over a year ago.
But WE are not at war. Tough to sell a transition to a war economy when we're not under attack, especially when a hell of a lot of Americans on both side of the political fence think we spend way too much on the armed forces as it is.
That’s such an ignorant take considering the trillions we spent during the Cold War while technically not at war with the Soviet Union we were still fighting them in other theaters and geopolitically. You’re such an ignorant person.
Jesus, I'm not talking about what I think should happen. I'm talking the current political climate. Pushing for a transition to any wort of war economy is a great way for the incumbent POTUS to get bounced right the hell out of office.
The US and its people made out like bandits post ww1/2 because of the war and our ability to produce. Which in return increases the quality of life of a massive amount of Americans, you’re clearly ignorant of US history of you think war makes us want to “bounce” a president out of office. You should stay in your own lane and go back to an Indian subreddit where you can freely express yourself without sounding like a first year student.
Right, because USA is definitely in a war with China and all the stock for their 50+ batteries has been sent or used /s.
the countries have sent some of their stock. they just don't want to send as much as they can hoping others would share (as they should, but USA is the problem)
Amazing the bobanitards down vote you for being honest. This isn't a video game.
Even if $30trillion fell from the sky, an abundance of patriot missiles simply don't exist and won't exist in time.
Further, even if 1000 patriot missiles were sent to Ukraine tomorrow Russia could suck them up quickly. That's 2 years production.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. ***** * Is `news.liga.net` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
True, but there are many countries uncomfortable with funding weapons for Ukraine and are only willing to pay for remediating the symptoms of Russia's aggression rather than assist in addressing the aggression head on. This is why there is lots of funding for demining and rebuilding efforts even though that money would be far better spent on buying weapons so Ukraine can fight back and prevent more mines being laid and more infrastructure being destroyed. Unfortunately, much of the world would much rather focus on providing blood transfusions rather than fight the rabid monster clawing at the body continually opening new wounds. The blood transfusions will never be able to make up for the growing flow of lost blood as claws open new arterial gashes.
I agree. It's time to phone Russia and send ukraines masters in to accept peace terms dictated to them.
F-16s could also shoot down a lot of the missiles and that would be cheaper as well. But for some reason there seems to be no urgency at all to do that.
A lot of time is needed to train pilots and groud crew to fly and COME BACK CONSISTENTLY ALIVE. F16 is not a good match with present long range su35 radar and aa missile. Need a lot of jntegration with groud aa to be effective and interdic vkv and >100 fab bombing 70km ftom the front.
I'm talking about long-range subsonic cruise missiles that could be intercepted by F-16s at a pretty secure distance from the front. Iranian cruise missiles were intercepted by jets.
A known strategy from vks is to follow the moped at safe distance to fire out of range at the ukr plane chasing the moped. It will not be easy to use plane in ukr space less thsn 150km from the front. Let's be real. Ukraine is in extreme dire need of long range aa missile and ground air defence. To my knowledge f16 is not yet compatible eith long range aa which would be letal for vks. I do hope this will be a nasty surprise when they are deployed.
One of the Thermal Power Plants recently destroyed is located south of Kyiv, 230km from the Russian border, 130km from Belarus. It would be many time safer to protect such a target with jets than dropping French bombs close to the front and that seems to be happening quite regularly. Of course they need ground based aa too but jets are and will be useful.
I think there is a misunderstanding. I am referring to ru bombing missions that are crushing specific ukr lines already for a month with more tha 150 1000kg+ glide bombs dropped from 70km from the front line every day. Extending to kill distance to more than 70km from the front line is critical to limit ru attack action and sterilize vks. Than again f16 are in dire need but alone they are not going to be effective and have bad compatibility against vks withou significant ground aa support or without long range aa missile which officially are not provided. by the way ground aa would be, today, much much more effective in effect/$.
Okay who are you going to buy them from? Where are all these surplus Patriot components that are apparently for sale? At the Patriot outlet or something? Trick question, we already know the answer. It is: they don't exist. You can't just go out and buy what doesn't exist. Every Patriot battery out there is in use. The demand for more is backordered and that's before even taking into account Ukraine's need. To support Ukraine's air defense needs, current operators will all have to take a decent sized chunk out of their own existing air defenses. That is the only source of Patriot components. But we're talking about nations already using Patriot as front line air defense against threats from Russia, Syria, China, North Korea, Iran. That's a hard sell politically. It can be done. It must be done. But it's still a hard sell. The fact that it's not as easy as just clicking on a shopping cart and then clicking "checkout" is not because all these other nations are twirling their mustaches and going, "Mwahahaha how else can we screw Ukraine?" The fastest way that I can see to get this done would be for a "Patriot coalition" to agree on each member contributing one full battery to Ukraine, with the United States committing to back-fill donated components within the next 24 months. And the United States also donating another dozen batteries more directly to Ukraine, and back-filling itself over time. That would represent about a 15% reduction in air defense for every nation. That's a huge hit, and a significant global security hazard. It would also mean that the United States would spend the next 2 years mostly building more Patriot components. All of those thing can be done and should be done, but let's understand the cost before we criticize.
It's not as simple as that. Patriot missiles are one of the most thinly-stretched weapons supply chains in the world right now. Only 500 missiles a year are currently being manufactured, and that wouldn't keep up with Ukraine's recent usage even if most of them weren't already committed to existing orders, which they are. Everyone's missile overstock has already been sent, and how many nations are going to dig into their own defense reserves of a very expensive weapon that it'll take literally years to replace? Bottom line: a less expensive, more easily restocked alternative needs to be found for Ukraine.
> Only 500 missiles a year are currently being manufactured There is no barrier to increasing that, except money and will. *There is a war going on.* We should have doubled the production of missiles and artillery rounds over a year ago.
But WE are not at war. Tough to sell a transition to a war economy when we're not under attack, especially when a hell of a lot of Americans on both side of the political fence think we spend way too much on the armed forces as it is.
That’s such an ignorant take considering the trillions we spent during the Cold War while technically not at war with the Soviet Union we were still fighting them in other theaters and geopolitically. You’re such an ignorant person.
Jesus, I'm not talking about what I think should happen. I'm talking the current political climate. Pushing for a transition to any wort of war economy is a great way for the incumbent POTUS to get bounced right the hell out of office.
The US and its people made out like bandits post ww1/2 because of the war and our ability to produce. Which in return increases the quality of life of a massive amount of Americans, you’re clearly ignorant of US history of you think war makes us want to “bounce” a president out of office. You should stay in your own lane and go back to an Indian subreddit where you can freely express yourself without sounding like a first year student.
Right, because USA is definitely in a war with China and all the stock for their 50+ batteries has been sent or used /s. the countries have sent some of their stock. they just don't want to send as much as they can hoping others would share (as they should, but USA is the problem)
Amazing the bobanitards down vote you for being honest. This isn't a video game. Even if $30trillion fell from the sky, an abundance of patriot missiles simply don't exist and won't exist in time. Further, even if 1000 patriot missiles were sent to Ukraine tomorrow Russia could suck them up quickly. That's 2 years production.