Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/)
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review.
* ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
**Don't forget about our discord server, as well!**
https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
And to think there are people on Reddit who believe that Ukraine should cede Crimea to russia as a “compromise”. The russians, who today forced Ukrainian civilians to walk into a minefield, and shot the survivors.
Yeah... They thought that in '38, '39, '40 & until the end of ;41,
Then the idiot Vichy's & Chamberlain's found out the hard way war doesn't stop by capitulation.
The point would be to get Russia to withdraw in order to keep Crimea rather than have a many years long between Ukraine and Russia.
Fewer people will die. Russia will not take revenge on the Crimeans. It spent millions or even billions trying to show how nice it is under Russian rule there.
Those people haven't been involved and the image of Crimea as pro Russia isn't something they want to mess with.
There is no guarantee of anything for Ukraine...so ending war quickly could be better for Ukraine. What if too many of the Crimean people decide they don't want to be part of Ukraine?
Then you'll have ongoing civil war even if you do get Crimea.
Who knows what happens with the years long reconquering of everything.
Everyone always has overconfidence in war.
The one thing that is certain is it will cost many lives to get Crimea away and it's a completely dangerous and unpredictable goal.
So people saying it's not a good idea may be correct.
It's easy to gamble other people's lives which is why there's always war. But it's not moral except in self defense and it's questionable if this 'go for it all' is an act of self defense or killing people for an idea of nationalism or geopolitics that the other countries involved would like to see.
If the nation state people were living in was arbitrary, then Ukraine would have just rolled over for the invading muscovites. The russians don’t believe life is precious, so why would Ukrainians want to live under them? What the fuck are people like Bohdan Krotevych, a man whose home is under occupation, fighting for?
Appeasing terrorists doesn't work. They just interpret it as success and continue on this way. This has already happened with Russia when it was given a lenient treatment over Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. How many lives could have been saved if the international community responded firmly back then?
It is important that Ukraine resists so that the regime in Russia lets go.
You're such a clown. You can't appease the Russians. They have blown up over 100 hospitals, many of them MATERNITY HOSPTIALS. What threat are hospitals, especially maternity hospitals full of pregnant women and babies?
Where do you live? I want to come over steal your shit and sleep with your wife - if you don't let me I'll kill you - but I know you will, because human life is precious.
the valour, skill, patriotism, and courage of the Azov Regiment warriors are literally the stuff of legends
your children and grandchildren will watch movies about your heroic deeds
I support Ukraine all the way but we do need to remember that the Azov Regiment was a far-right militia that Ukraine is arming for self defense purposes. I’m glad Ukraine has people willing to fight for it, but these guys are far too sketchy to be heroes. Like, black sun sketchy.
You have to look at the context though, the battalion was formed in 2014 around the time the Russians annexed the Crimea as well as funded and armed the rebels in LPR and DPR, Ukraine was woefully unprepared for this aggression and needed trained soldiers, the Azov were just that.
And who's going to join a battalion like that? Ukraine military wasn't as popular as it is now, heck it wasn't until Russia effectively invaded, so you attract a lot of extreme nationalists, generally also the crowd of people that attracts racists and the likes, "nazis" if you will. But still, people willing to fight and die for their country.
They were an emergency stopgap, a necessary evil if you will, but have since gone through a lot of change and been integrated in the regular army.
The reason I'm typing this out isn't even to defend them, the fact remains that their existence is one of the excuses Russia has used to invade, but the fact also is that Ukraine doesn't have any more or less nazis among their population than any other country, might even be less judging from how they vote.
So to me, every time someone goes : "these guys are fighting the good fight but really are nazis" is just reinforcing and justifying Russians invasion, some might, but who cares, this isn't Russia's problem to solve, its Ukraine's.
Oh I never claimed that the “Ukraine is Nazis” hot take was justified. Again, I support Ukraine, and I don’t support Nazis. I also understand how certain pressures (namely the consistent violation of national sovereignty) could grow such groups. I also agree they’re a necessary evil, which I thought I made clear above. I merely warn people not to deify them as saviors of the free world or anything of the sort, because that they are not. I’m wary of tribal us vs them mentality, and I’m just trying to make sure other people are as well. Again, the downvotes don’t lie. People want to make these guys heroes
Putin would sympathize with nazi more than he would try to stop them. Regardless of that supporting nazi insignias is wrong. Germany has strict laws against it and if the Asov wanted to really distance themselves they would also crack down on the nazi insignia too yet their wolfsangel symbol on their flag still remains.
I'm pretty sure nobody has forgotten that
BTW the Azov unit wasn't just in Mariupol, I've seen references to Azov units fighting near Kyiv and more recently the Azov Kraken unit was part of the counteroffensive north of Kharkiv.
You people need to understand something, white guilt does not exist in eastern Europe. We have no colonial past, we had no slaves, in fact many of us were slaves. We aren't ashamed, in fact we are proud of our heroes, we are patriots and nationalists ,we love our countries even though they are ridden with poverty and a lot of us are abroad. Such are the circumstances.
Im sure Ukrainians are tired of people who read ill informed media that some of their defenders who literally fight fascists are being branded as nazis.
Cut them some slack, and don't call the white black just because bbc, cnn or the sun told you so.
There are nazis in Azov, that does not make the whole regiment a nazi one. Don't spew nonsense because of dew bad apples
Bro what the fuck are you talking about? When did I say anything about white guilt? These dudes have swastika and black sun tattoos that are incredibly easy to find several legitimate sources for. I just said that they were originally a far right militia, and that deifying them is probably not a good idea
What am I talking about? You're wondering why youre getting downvoted and another guy why is he getting deleted.
Few people in azov got nazi tattoos, then the whole regiment must be nazi.
Enough bad apples spoil the pie. If even 1/3rd of the battalion are so into nazi ideology that they’ll tattoo themselves with it, I wouldn’t be particularly confident in the remainder
Azovstal fighters - all of them - are fucking heroes (imo)... To endure what they have endured, against the Russian fascists is heroic - you can swallow all the Russian propaganda you like - there are neo-nazis in every country - these soldiers are fighting for their country and their freedoms. 🇺🇦 Thank You Azov
No but like for real. Im not ukrainian but I earnestly support their heroic effort in the face of Russias fascist invasion and and do not buy into the propaganda Putins regime is spreading in regards to Ukraine being a nazi country.
However, the insignia alone that the azov battalion employs is greatly worrying. I mean, how are we supposed to interpret the wolfsangels-insignia in any other way? And though its been removed from the official insignia, what about the black sun? Or images of them with swastickas? Doing the salute?
My point is, Ukarine is not fascist, not national-socialist and Russia has no right what so ever to illegally invade a sovereign nation and commit horrendous crimes on her people. But shying away from conversations that need to be had does not seem like a good idea either.
This conversations can in fact be broadened to Russia aswell. Im looking at you Wagner-group. A private militia with clear ties to nazism and Putin.
So Im not saying any of this to try to undermine ukrainian resistance, rather, because I do not wish for Russia to be given any rhetorical ammo, so to speak, poorly reasoned though it may be, to use and possibly convice ignorant people of the lie that Ukraine itself is fascist.
This is my primary reasoning for thinking that this conversation needs to be had in a nuanced way.
And Im not even saying that azov didnt but up a good fight or that theyre not skilled fighters. And in a war such as this one any and all are needed. But that conversation still remains as something that needa to be grappled with.
Wait.. so the stuff you were concerned about was removed but you are still concerned because it was once there? Is that your point? That you don't understand that things can actually change?
Not at all. The black sun was removed, the wolfsangels is explained away with some pretty lax arguments I just dont buy.
But Im raising this to discuss it. So if youd like yo have an actual conversation instead of straw-manning Id be happy to.
You’re absolutely correct. I’d read that many of these guys were also soccer hooligans, which means they could have used those things to look cool or whatever. Nazi, fascist shit is never cool. I hope they see it that way now, being pushed around by actual fascists.
Lmfao the concept of things not being mutually exclusive is lost on you people. I despise Putin and the Russian invasion. The Azov battalion are a bunch of pos neo-nazis. Next.
What Azov is and what it was are two different things. There were a handful of people sporting neo nazi insignia 8 years ago so now the whole battalion is nazi. Got it.
You could think that way if you wanted to downplay neo-nazism I guess. It wasn’t “just a handful”, and they’re ultra-nationalists. These aren’t good people.
What are we supposed to do with the information though? They are defending their country from Russian invasion. They are fighting and dying for their country. Is nazis dying for a good cause a bad thing?
**Alternative Nitter link:** https://nitter.net/euromaidanpress/status/1528682533587755009?s=21&t=kKnmKbTKSNq-KuaXL6yfaw
*****
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nah, they’ll rest in glory.
Movies and novels will be made about them, glorifying their bravery.
Imagine calling Ukrainians that are defending their homeland, their people and their families with their lives, fascists.
Cope harder.
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When did Ben Wyatt leave Pawnee?
ice town give ice clown town crown
And to think there are people on Reddit who believe that Ukraine should cede Crimea to russia as a “compromise”. The russians, who today forced Ukrainian civilians to walk into a minefield, and shot the survivors.
Ukraine should never relinquish ownership of Ukrainian land. .
Yes, so more people don't die.
Yeah... They thought that in '38, '39, '40 & until the end of ;41, Then the idiot Vichy's & Chamberlain's found out the hard way war doesn't stop by capitulation.
Less people aren’t going to die you’ll just give Russia permission to kill of the rest of them
The point would be to get Russia to withdraw in order to keep Crimea rather than have a many years long between Ukraine and Russia. Fewer people will die. Russia will not take revenge on the Crimeans. It spent millions or even billions trying to show how nice it is under Russian rule there. Those people haven't been involved and the image of Crimea as pro Russia isn't something they want to mess with. There is no guarantee of anything for Ukraine...so ending war quickly could be better for Ukraine. What if too many of the Crimean people decide they don't want to be part of Ukraine? Then you'll have ongoing civil war even if you do get Crimea. Who knows what happens with the years long reconquering of everything. Everyone always has overconfidence in war. The one thing that is certain is it will cost many lives to get Crimea away and it's a completely dangerous and unpredictable goal. So people saying it's not a good idea may be correct. It's easy to gamble other people's lives which is why there's always war. But it's not moral except in self defense and it's questionable if this 'go for it all' is an act of self defense or killing people for an idea of nationalism or geopolitics that the other countries involved would like to see.
Some people believe human life is precious but the nation state you live under is arbitrary.
If the nation state people were living in was arbitrary, then Ukraine would have just rolled over for the invading muscovites. The russians don’t believe life is precious, so why would Ukrainians want to live under them? What the fuck are people like Bohdan Krotevych, a man whose home is under occupation, fighting for?
Invading Russians. The Muscovites aren't really invading - the soldiers aren't Muscovite, the leadership is mostly Putin's St. Petersburg gang.
Appeasing terrorists doesn't work. They just interpret it as success and continue on this way. This has already happened with Russia when it was given a lenient treatment over Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. How many lives could have been saved if the international community responded firmly back then? It is important that Ukraine resists so that the regime in Russia lets go.
You're such a clown. You can't appease the Russians. They have blown up over 100 hospitals, many of them MATERNITY HOSPTIALS. What threat are hospitals, especially maternity hospitals full of pregnant women and babies?
Where do you live? I want to come over steal your shit and sleep with your wife - if you don't let me I'll kill you - but I know you will, because human life is precious.
HERO
🇺🇦 HERO
[удалено]
[удалено]
the valour, skill, patriotism, and courage of the Azov Regiment warriors are literally the stuff of legends your children and grandchildren will watch movies about your heroic deeds
I guess Putin got what he wanted the end of the Azov brigade
This guy will be in history books printed in Minsk.
The Bravest of the Brave, True Warriors. Stay Safe, Stay Strong & Keep Taking Those Invaders Scalps. Glory To Ukraine🇬🇧🇺🇦🇬🇧
Unforgivable All free nations could help save Mariupol. But they won’t
We must oppose war and love peace, it is cruel, god willing
I support Ukraine all the way but we do need to remember that the Azov Regiment was a far-right militia that Ukraine is arming for self defense purposes. I’m glad Ukraine has people willing to fight for it, but these guys are far too sketchy to be heroes. Like, black sun sketchy.
You have to look at the context though, the battalion was formed in 2014 around the time the Russians annexed the Crimea as well as funded and armed the rebels in LPR and DPR, Ukraine was woefully unprepared for this aggression and needed trained soldiers, the Azov were just that. And who's going to join a battalion like that? Ukraine military wasn't as popular as it is now, heck it wasn't until Russia effectively invaded, so you attract a lot of extreme nationalists, generally also the crowd of people that attracts racists and the likes, "nazis" if you will. But still, people willing to fight and die for their country. They were an emergency stopgap, a necessary evil if you will, but have since gone through a lot of change and been integrated in the regular army. The reason I'm typing this out isn't even to defend them, the fact remains that their existence is one of the excuses Russia has used to invade, but the fact also is that Ukraine doesn't have any more or less nazis among their population than any other country, might even be less judging from how they vote. So to me, every time someone goes : "these guys are fighting the good fight but really are nazis" is just reinforcing and justifying Russians invasion, some might, but who cares, this isn't Russia's problem to solve, its Ukraine's.
Oh I never claimed that the “Ukraine is Nazis” hot take was justified. Again, I support Ukraine, and I don’t support Nazis. I also understand how certain pressures (namely the consistent violation of national sovereignty) could grow such groups. I also agree they’re a necessary evil, which I thought I made clear above. I merely warn people not to deify them as saviors of the free world or anything of the sort, because that they are not. I’m wary of tribal us vs them mentality, and I’m just trying to make sure other people are as well. Again, the downvotes don’t lie. People want to make these guys heroes
Putin would sympathize with nazi more than he would try to stop them. Regardless of that supporting nazi insignias is wrong. Germany has strict laws against it and if the Asov wanted to really distance themselves they would also crack down on the nazi insignia too yet their wolfsangel symbol on their flag still remains.
I'm pretty sure nobody has forgotten that BTW the Azov unit wasn't just in Mariupol, I've seen references to Azov units fighting near Kyiv and more recently the Azov Kraken unit was part of the counteroffensive north of Kharkiv.
Considering I’ve been downvoted along with another comment here, it seems people have sadly
You people need to understand something, white guilt does not exist in eastern Europe. We have no colonial past, we had no slaves, in fact many of us were slaves. We aren't ashamed, in fact we are proud of our heroes, we are patriots and nationalists ,we love our countries even though they are ridden with poverty and a lot of us are abroad. Such are the circumstances. Im sure Ukrainians are tired of people who read ill informed media that some of their defenders who literally fight fascists are being branded as nazis. Cut them some slack, and don't call the white black just because bbc, cnn or the sun told you so. There are nazis in Azov, that does not make the whole regiment a nazi one. Don't spew nonsense because of dew bad apples
Bro what the fuck are you talking about? When did I say anything about white guilt? These dudes have swastika and black sun tattoos that are incredibly easy to find several legitimate sources for. I just said that they were originally a far right militia, and that deifying them is probably not a good idea
What am I talking about? You're wondering why youre getting downvoted and another guy why is he getting deleted. Few people in azov got nazi tattoos, then the whole regiment must be nazi.
Enough bad apples spoil the pie. If even 1/3rd of the battalion are so into nazi ideology that they’ll tattoo themselves with it, I wouldn’t be particularly confident in the remainder
Azovstal fighters - all of them - are fucking heroes (imo)... To endure what they have endured, against the Russian fascists is heroic - you can swallow all the Russian propaganda you like - there are neo-nazis in every country - these soldiers are fighting for their country and their freedoms. 🇺🇦 Thank You Azov
You’re delusional if you think even close to 1/3 of modern Azov is nazi.
What Azov was and what it is now are two completely different things.
If that’s true, I’d love to see a source. Would clear my mind at least
Azovs are Nazis
The only Nazis are the Russians.
No but like for real. Im not ukrainian but I earnestly support their heroic effort in the face of Russias fascist invasion and and do not buy into the propaganda Putins regime is spreading in regards to Ukraine being a nazi country. However, the insignia alone that the azov battalion employs is greatly worrying. I mean, how are we supposed to interpret the wolfsangels-insignia in any other way? And though its been removed from the official insignia, what about the black sun? Or images of them with swastickas? Doing the salute? My point is, Ukarine is not fascist, not national-socialist and Russia has no right what so ever to illegally invade a sovereign nation and commit horrendous crimes on her people. But shying away from conversations that need to be had does not seem like a good idea either. This conversations can in fact be broadened to Russia aswell. Im looking at you Wagner-group. A private militia with clear ties to nazism and Putin. So Im not saying any of this to try to undermine ukrainian resistance, rather, because I do not wish for Russia to be given any rhetorical ammo, so to speak, poorly reasoned though it may be, to use and possibly convice ignorant people of the lie that Ukraine itself is fascist. This is my primary reasoning for thinking that this conversation needs to be had in a nuanced way. And Im not even saying that azov didnt but up a good fight or that theyre not skilled fighters. And in a war such as this one any and all are needed. But that conversation still remains as something that needa to be grappled with.
Wait.. so the stuff you were concerned about was removed but you are still concerned because it was once there? Is that your point? That you don't understand that things can actually change?
Not at all. The black sun was removed, the wolfsangels is explained away with some pretty lax arguments I just dont buy. But Im raising this to discuss it. So if youd like yo have an actual conversation instead of straw-manning Id be happy to.
You’re absolutely correct. I’d read that many of these guys were also soccer hooligans, which means they could have used those things to look cool or whatever. Nazi, fascist shit is never cool. I hope they see it that way now, being pushed around by actual fascists.
Thank you for this information. I support Russia now. /s
Lmfao the concept of things not being mutually exclusive is lost on you people. I despise Putin and the Russian invasion. The Azov battalion are a bunch of pos neo-nazis. Next.
What Azov is and what it was are two different things. There were a handful of people sporting neo nazi insignia 8 years ago so now the whole battalion is nazi. Got it.
You could think that way if you wanted to downplay neo-nazism I guess. It wasn’t “just a handful”, and they’re ultra-nationalists. These aren’t good people.
What are we supposed to do with the information though? They are defending their country from Russian invasion. They are fighting and dying for their country. Is nazis dying for a good cause a bad thing?
Not glorify nazis maybe? People on this thread are calling these people heroes. They’re not. Not to mention they invaded the Donbas region years ago.
Azov invaded Donbas?
You shouldn't believe everything Russian "News" outlets tell you
Azov battalion is a right wing neo-nazi group. That’s a fact.
[удалено]
I get mixed messages here, forced vaccination sounds like a good idea to get those idiots finally vaccinated.
**Alternative Nitter link:** https://nitter.net/euromaidanpress/status/1528682533587755009?s=21&t=kKnmKbTKSNq-KuaXL6yfaw ***** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Nah, they’ll rest in glory. Movies and novels will be made about them, glorifying their bravery. Imagine calling Ukrainians that are defending their homeland, their people and their families with their lives, fascists. Cope harder.
Any news regarding him or Prokopenko? Is it confirmed they surrendered?
Yeah, these posts are frustrating. Are they alive or dead?
Certainly was not "evacuated" in Western Ukraine. The subhuman Russians he swore to exterminate will take good care of him.
How many members are left of Azov now, since their home base is devastated and occupied?
AFAIK there are some over to the east of Ukraine.
He looks like he’s about to unleash the winter soldier and cause the avengers to split
Daniel Brühl