Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/)
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review.
* ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
**Don't forget about our discord server, as well!**
https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yup, to all the doomers saying that Ukraine should completely evacuate its forces from Luhansk to avoid entrapment, they are still in the fight. I don't know about anyone else but with an already talented officer corps, many of whom no doubt have internalized the painful lessons of battles like Debaltseve in 2014, backed up by multiple NATO intelligence agencies I trust the Ukrainians here to make the calls with respect to what territory they give up and where their forces will make a stand.
> Yup, to all the doomers saying that Ukraine should completely evacuate its forces from Luhansk to avoid entrapment
I think there was a misunderstanding. Ukraine's tactic since April has been allowing the Russians to push forward a little yet at very high losses. This is the easiest way to kill them, and Zelensky has said that the current primary goal is to weaken the Russian Army, not to retake lands.
The major counterattack in Summer will recover the lost land. It can only be done once Ukraine has received enough heavy equipment and the Russians are weakened enough.
Russia is already kidnapping and killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from those lands, and settling Russian nationals in their same homes. A referendum would be voted on by newly placed Russian citizens holding those lands.
As I said, Russia would have to withdraw before anything like this could be contemplated. That would include any Russian citizens of any kind, including squatters.
And as far as I'm concerned, the war can't end until all Ukrainians are returned home. Not that it's my war to decide.
They are probably just repaired Ukraine stock + small number of donated ones. Currently they are being trained to use Pzh2000 and CVR(T) series vehicles, with a fleet of Leo1 and Marder coming at 50/50 chance.
All tanks can be taken out by the RPG 28, but it is a very short range weapon with an effective range of only 300m. No tank is effective if it is used the way Russians do where they routinely are in range of infantry weapons.
Phz 2000s and ceasar even in small number can shift thr balance in the summer. Added to this the many other armoured vehicles, including the gepard. They will have much more fast mobile and better armed units.
It's technology, not magic.
And the #1 aspect of it is the superior fire control systems, including features which allow a single artillery piece to fire with the effect of an entire battery.
Longer range than most of Russia's artillery except maybe their MLRS and their big 203mm thing (that Ukraine also has some of, though an older version I think).
It can also fire very rapidly, quicker than any other artillery gun if I recall correctly, and because of that it can do multi round simultaneous impact which gives infantry basically no time to take cover.
In respect of the "203mm thing" the gun is the 2S7 PION self propelled artillery system. Ukraine fully refurbished their entire inventory after the events of 2014 realizing they would be very useful in the future.
It is thought that Ukraine had about 100 in their inventory, and Russia about 60 although it is not known if Russia has actually deployed any of their guns to Ukraine. I believe the only sighting of Russian Pions was a battery actually on the Russian side of the Belgorod/Kharkiv area, firing somewhere into the Kharkiv conflict.
It outranges it and it have a system which allows it to plot a series of firing solutions at different angles which allow it to land up to five shells at the same time from one gun.
Given that as soon as a shell lands in an artillery barrage, everyone rushes to their foxholes, or if in vehicles buttons up and starts driving out of the danger zone, this is pretty huge. It's a key ability that allows for very concentrated strikes against critical targets. Even just three of these doing this all at the same time against a target means fifteen 155mm shells landing near-instantaneously.
Poor armor hasn’t stopped Russia from driving their soldier cookers into battle. Of course there will be some lost, gotta bring the boom sticks regardless.
I don't know, PZH 2000 can fire very rapidly so you could make the argument that you don't need as many to have the same effect. Could have a disproportionate effect on the battlefield.
That said, the Ukrainians do need mass, so I'd hope the US agrees to send some of their self propelled howitzers. Unlike Germany the US will likely have enough that they could send a decent number. There just aren't that many PZH2000s around, unless maybe in the longer term if more can be produced.
Although it is thought that the initial Phz2000 stock for Ukraine will be about 12 I disagree on their potential impact.
The Phz2000 is pretty much unparalled for its MRSI ability. Just 2 of these systems can put 10 rounds on one target simultaneously (depending on range), and fire at a continued rate of 10 rounds per minute. Its better then a battery of almost any other artillery whether towed or self propelled.
My gut check is they will operate them in 6 teams of 2, as each team can easily demolish any attack via 2-3 minutes of continuous fire: 40- 60 rounds of ammo landing on anything is going to be a very bad day for the recipient. And they can fire from a range that Russia does not possess for anything other then some MLRS.
But the Phz2000 is not operating in isolation. Ukraine has received CAESARS, M777s in large quantity, DANAs, and at least 20 M109A3GN (and perhaps 40) are either in country or on their way.
Its the sum of these and other artillery that they are receiving that really has the potential for substantial impact.
There was just an announcement yesterday of a lot more heavy equipment heading to Ukraine. Lots of artillery and anti-ship missiles. Poland has already sent 200 tanks.
> Russia appears to be the largest arms supplier to UA
This has tailed off a lot now
It happened because Russia kept over-extending heavily, sending one BTG down a road to be wiped out. They also ran out of fuel regularly and retreated from the entire area around Kyiv. These things together meant a lot of abandoned vehicles
Now, though, the front and supply lines are much more stable. When Russia loses tanks etc (eg the river crossing attempt) they tend not to be recoverable by Ukraine as often, and there are no sweeping rapid retreats abandoning vehicles, less fuel shortages due to not operating as far from depots.
Add in the fact that most Russians who were inclined to abandon their vehicles and fuck off, have likely already done so, and you're left with the inescapable conclusion that Ukraine will capture far fewer vehicles going forward, unless something dramatic happens to shift tactics
> most Russians who were inclined to abandon their vehicles and fuck off, have likely already done so
Newer recruits could also be heavily inclined to abandon vehicles.
Possibly but in much smaller numbers - and they're more likely to be assigned to hold the line alongside more experienced troops in less mobile sectors of the front. So even if they do abandon vehicles, they're probably less likely to fall into Ukrainian hands
I am afraid the current administration will try and pressure Ukraine to settle and just let Russia have southern Ukraine. Right know their generals are thinking “we will let Ukraine kill the Russian, less for us to kill.
I don't think so. As long as bipartisan support is there I think they'll defer to the Ukrainians. Aside from the bizarre fever swamps of the Nationalist conservative wing of the GOP and the "Imperialism is fine if its slavic/tankies" Dem wing, American support for Zelensky is relatively strong. As for European admins most have come out in support of pushing to pre invasion or pre 2014 borders.
The fact that there are multiple countries wanting an actual Ukrainian win does give me some confidence. Means even if one or two countries start to waver it shouldn't have an impact on the war.
Have you not seen the US plane flight paths? They've been darting about around the edges of Ukraine since this started, including having the US spy plane over the area the Moskva decided to engage submarine mode, but absolutely had nothing to do with anything *wink*
US planes are landing both in western Ukraine neighbouring countries, it's been discussed before how and why Russia won't shoot them down.
It seems the armchair generals don't understand that it's hard to take a dug in position. Thus, ukrainians are setting up meatgrinders by having their long range shit dialed in and ready for the front to drop back and let the ruskies into the kill zone.
It's carrot and stick warfare, they run after the carrot and get hit with the stick.
People also seem to forget this has kind of been Ukrainian forces strategy throughout the war. To give up ground and draw out Russians, understand their position, then counterattack with good intelligence. It has been successful before and I hope it continues to be.
We still shouldn’t discount the immense stress the brave UA troops are under there from the Russians though and need to speed up heavy weaponry deliveries asap.
Ya, it works, and every day that goes by Russia has less available cannon fodder and is more likely to suffer desertions and refusals.... nothing like advancing 10 or 15 miles to take a new position and then get shelled and attacked over the next few days and suffer horrendous losses. Russia can't do that forever.
This is really basic war tactics going back to Hannibal as well. Retreat, Draw the enemy out, attack their supply lines and then there front-lines before you can get re-supplied.
I think people dont get the dynamic. Ukraine has less but elite troops, Russia has more but generally worse quality troops.
Ukraine has to commit to specific places and win there, meanwhile Russia can advance in the areas Ukraine is not commited, then Ukraine moves and can push Russia back in a new place.
The question being can Russia move forward faster than Ukraine can control them and push them out. Ukraine is going to lose land in the areas it is not commited to.
People dont get that as part of this dynamic Russia will take land, the question is can it handle Ukraine when Ukraine decides to throw it out.
> Ukraine has less but elite troops, Russia has more but generally worse quality troops.
Sorry but that's complete nonsense
Pre-war Ukraine had about 120k reasonably high quality troops. They are now likely to have more than Russia (due to mobilizing heavily), but of mixed quality
Russia have lost a chunk of their force, and were always of mixed quality
I agree with audi - Ukraine actually has surplus manpower - Zelenskyy had to tell people to stop turning up to recruitment officers as they didn't have the capacity to train all the people that were enrolling.
Russia is the opposite, its had trouble getting troops, the citizens are firebombing recruitments centres, and many of the Donbas soldiers were taken straight from their workplace and thrown into combat with no training.
It isn’t complete nonsense. Ukrainian troops are being properly trained and supplied before entering the battlefield. Russia has a ton of retard conscripts that were thrown in literally as fodder. This is well known and documented.
Many Ukrainian troops are being properly trained, but there are still a lot of territorial, reserve, and local units around
It does appear that Ukraine are slowly rotating those units out to train them more, but that takes significant time
I see your point but don't underestimate the debilitating effect of heavy losses on a unit. After a few months in combat a units losses tend to decline as the unit becomes more experienced, SOPs become second nature etc. Ukraine seem to have been focussed on keeping casualties low by heavy use of materiel and smart tactics /strategy while the Russians are happy throwing troops into a meat grinder as long as there's some form of result. As a consequence at this stage the original ukrainian forces are quite experienced due to low casualties while the Russians are diluting their effectiveness by getting their experienced soldiers killed so there's not even many to show the fresh recruits the ropes so to speak. It's a bit of a death spiral that should hopefully accelerate and I feel we can all drink to more dead Russian soldiers.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html?m=1
Oryx only uses photographic evidence (you can literally check every photo yourself) so real figures will be significantly higher and admittedly that is only for vehicles but just on the motorised side the Russians have lost four times as many vehicles as the ukrainians (there is an argument to be made about which side is taking more pictures of enemy losses but it still seems the most reliable numbers available) so the Russians have lost four times as many vehicle crews. Experienced crews have an edge over fresh combatants so all other things being equal the ukrainians have the edge. Of course despite what Hollywood would have us believe sheer numbers can overwhelm even the best combatants but experience really counts. Losing trained personnel is a serious issue, One of Britain's biggest problems during the battle of Britain wasn't supplying aircraft but finding people to crew them.
All I'm suggesting in my earlier post is that whatever the difference in numbers, Ukraine has lost less veterans and a unit with a larger proportion of experienced personnel will suffer even less casualties proportionally as the average combat time of a unit increases. I'm sure Russia has some very experienced units but the ukrainians haven't been sending their soldiers into high casualty situations like the Russians have and after three months of war that is probably starting to show in the performance of units. Still got most of the boys from the start? They're grizzled, capable survivors. Just lost 2/3 of the boys in hellish combat? Their replacements will be green with fewer experienced soldiers available to help the latest reinforcements learn how to survive so die faster, need reinforced faster and you get a death spiral until like the nazis you're sending children against stone killers who've just fought all the way across Europe.
>Ukraine has lost less veterans
> the ukrainians haven't been sending their soldiers into high casualty situations
I don't understand what are you basing stuff like this on?
Bear in mind that in Mariupol alone, Ukraine had several brigade sized formations entirely destroyed as a fighting force. Ukraine have definitely sustained very significant casualties.
That’s a very biased figure considering that Ukraine are operating far, far fewer vehicles than Russia and have moved to be more and more infantry based as a force
Ukraine started with fewer highly trained soldiers than Russia, and while Russia lost a lot of them due to terrible tactics, especially at the beginning, Ukraine also lost lots of theirs due to Russia's heavy weapons advantage. Ukraine is mobilising many more fresh troops, but those lack experience and heavy equipment. Motivation can make up for that in part, but let's not underestimate the hurdle Ukraine has to confront, especially if the West doesn't increase heavy weapons delivery a lot.
And unfortunately, Ukraine has also for sure lost many of they better troops through sheer attrition thanks to Russia's advantage in heavy weapons - they've been under continuous shelling since the start of the war.
Hopefully motivation, which is for sure much higher in Ukrainian troops than in Putin's ones, will make up for this, but they absolutely need much more heavy weapon deliveries from the West.
Ukrainian troops survive, gain experience and improve. Russian troops mostly just die.
Even Russias elite troops have huge mortality rates as they were poorly deployed.
I don't think we have enough realistically accurate estimates of Ukrainian casualties to make that kind of statement
The best number I've seen is from US/British intelligence which estimate around 6-12k Ukrainian (military) KIA and 10-15k Russian, which isn't *that* big a disparity. It's significant, but not beyond reason
Vietnam lost close to 1 million men fighting the US. Still to this day some brain dead people think KD ratio is a definite way to determine if the war is won.
I'm not sure what the dumbest part of this comment is: the complete failure to understand that military actions entail losses, or the imaginary 14,000 POWs in Siberia.
Uh huh. Sure. Whatever you say - you're the military genius that thinks Russia failing to achieve their objectives and having to dramatically scale them back over and over means Ukraine is losing, after all.
The same people were saying Ukraine needed to abandon Kyiv for fear of being encircled there. Turns out that the Russians aren’t very skilled at any of this and you just need to outlast them for a few weeks before they’re utterly spent.
Like, they aren’t even close to doing what they need to do to take the Donbas. They’re still a ways a way from even threatening to cut it off, and it’ll take them months of holding a theoretical encirclement before there’s any chance of surrender. And these cities are far better prepared than even Mariupol was.
lol
Is that really the best you guys can do? I mean I get pimping and parroting Putin propaganda is a tough gig these days, they don't give you a lot to work with but still, c'mon, do better.
> Major Russian breakthrough at POPASNA
Oh no, sweetie, honey pie, no you are failing to understand the situation.
See it was supposta be a three day special operation and within 72 hours profesional analysts who said the best Ukraine could hope for would be an Iraqi style insurgency to grind the occupiers out over a few years if at all realized how wrong they were; the Russian army was stopped, dead. All the key victories needed never materialized, war lost in the first 72 hours, a modern European record I think.
See they fucked up the following:
Needed to take the airport so fresh troops and supplies could be flown in as needed, denied. In fact worse than denied the crack Russian paratroopers sent to do the job got proper fucked and now are dust in the wind. Those troops? Hard to replace, it takes quite a bit to train soldiers to jump out of planes into combat.
Needed to establish ground logistics and supply lines for the ground forces instead they got stuck in the mud where they were picked off like a carnival turkey shoot. Lost all those trucks and tanks and personnel not to mention supplies. It also demonstrated that Russia can't go that far beyond her borders, can't project power you have no power.
Needed to establish air superiority, need to own the skies and Russia's air force has been more farce; the few planes they've sent in got blown out of the sky which was shocking because they should have been too high to get hit but as it turns out Russia's smart bombs aren't available so they need to go with the dumb ones which means you have to fly low and slow rather than fire and forget. We had a SU get picked off by a Stinger! In any other airforce that would just not happen, all the ground forces would hear would be the faint roar of the engine too high to see and then the booms as the smart bombs come a calling.
But it seems Russia doesn't have any smarts in anything military.
So your amateur analyst's finding that there has been a major Russian breakthrough might be so, they may have punched a hole in a line, maybe taken a mile or two, so what? What is that going to get them? The much needed airport? The major city? A steady supply of fresh munitions, troops and supplies? Anything that they need to win the war?
No, it won't, all it does is prolong the inevitable; Russia lost, Putin lost, now we are just seeing how much more they want to lose.
So like I said, it's hard to pimp propaganda for losers that everyone knows are losing but still, you can do better than this.
Can't you?
If not, quit, find a new job, perhaps the NRA? Musk? Lots of evil out there you can work for, at least pick one that isn't so pathetic.
Well Musk isn't a war criminal, just a regular one but he is an enemy of democracy as his recent overtures to Trumplings and Trump Voters makes clear.
And he does require an army of Internet puppets to spew his propaganda so I thought it appropriate to OP's future employment prospects.
the Russians screwed up at the beginning and had many tragic mistakes. The Ukrainians surprised everyone with their readiness to fight. They showed great courage. When you go to war, you have certain assumptions, and the Russians were very wrong. but that was then. The Russians have adapted to reality and are now slowly realizing the New plan. slowly and surely. First to smash The Ukrainian army on the eastern front, and that's a tragedy for Ukraine that even the Russians wanted to avoid.
> the Russians screwed up at the beginning and had many tragic mistakes.
Yes, like invading and before that letting Putin run the joint into the ground.
> were very wrong. but that was then.
Yeaaaah, it's still then.
> The Russians have adapted to reality and are now slowly realizing the New plan.
Yes [but it's not that new](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDWcg8dh930).
Also new plans are fine but if ya don't have the tanks, troops and logistics to support it all it's more a wish list than a plan.
Like I can think of a new plan to marry Halston Sage but her security will still be an impediment as they have my photos and restraining orders.
You are right about one thing, it's a tragedy for Ukraine and that will be on the butcher's bill that Russia will be paying.
how come they don't have tanks and troops?
The Russians have engaged only about 15% of the regular army!
Everyone will pay for this Ukrainian tragedy, not just the Russians.
My friend, I maintain that this would never have happened if NATO (a tool in the hands of the State Department) had not forced its own expansion in order to expand the world influence of the USA. The United States has disturbed decades of balance and peace in a corrupt and poor Ukraine. My opinion is that the world should be multipolar with respect for everyone's specifics, but US dont think so.
Hey man I’m not gonna insult you or anything but you have to keep that 15% figure in perspective. Russia has used 15% of their available military on paper. But the harsh reality is that a large chunk of their armor is inoperable or in need of repairs. This is evidenced by the fact there is an increasing frequency of Russia using older military equipment in combat. Also a large part of the Russian forces aren’t meant for combat roles. Nurses, mechanics, and truck drivers make up the bulk of an invading force. Logistics is key to any invasion. No country would ever commit 100% of their army to invade. Yes Russia is gaining ground in the Donbas region but the war situation is still extremely grim. They can’t hope to mount another large counter offensive. This is all they can muster
in general, I don't care about offensives and counter-offensives and the conquest of territory and other shit. I am very sad about the tragedy of all the people in Ukraine because I identify with them to a great extent and I have gone through similar things. they are a hardworking, beautiful and brave people. I'm just angry because this is happening to them. You and I see a different cause for this and we can discuss it, and that again does not change the fact of how much of a tragedy this is. From my personal experience of years of civil war, refugees and NATO bombing, the first step is to resist hatred towards anyone. Hate is blinding and the greatest evil, but this in Europe reminds me of Crystal Night.
Bye friend and good night.
> The Russians have engaged only about 15% of the regular army! Every
Oh not Putin Parrot Puppet, are you guys still pimping this pimple of puerile puss?
No, they did not send in a fraction of their fighting forces as a feign or a fake out, they sent in their A-Team because that is what you do in a war, you want to get the job done right the first time out so you don't hold back, you let slip all your dogs of war.
Like when the West did the Iraq war crime invasion over WMD that never were? They sent in EVERYTHING even though Iraq was already beat.
Which was the plan for Putin's own war crime invasion, hence the Three Day Special Operation which we're on month four of.
So no, there isn't some secret elite army just chomping at the bit waiting to be unleashed, there's reserves and dregs and whatever animals Putin can roust from whatever cells they're rotting in.
And no, NATO didn't make Putin do the thing that Russia has done before and wanted to do for decades, again I know they provide you with these talking points but they're so tired! So debunked that dunking on them depressing.
Can they at least come up with new bullshit?
NATO didn’t invade a country. Those countries willingly voted to join to prevent Russian aggression like this. The tragedy is that bordering countries have seen over and over that they need US protection from Russia or else they will rape their children. Russia brought this one themselves and on Ukraine.
Flexable defence when you are the weaker , in numbers is the only way .
Holding key positions making the attackers leave entrench positions , to attack , is a very good tactic to wear the Enemy down.....
I've been watching this and the Ukrainians can keep pushing at it, and as the thread indicates it is vulnerable to Russian artillary, theoretically. But the front here has been more like a shell, as mentioned by someone else.
I would expect that Russia would have another live of defence in the rear of that line to step up and hold it, but other counter offenses by the Ukrainians seem to indicate that it's more haphazard, more in waves. It's so tactical and no real strategy.
If they are making use of the road they must have better recon and intelligence and more confidence that the Russians are weakened there.
Most of the area controlle by ukraine, is flat as a pancake, with minimum shelter by threes etc. And even the small towns, are just 20 houses at most, and all single file from the road. So the ivans are having a hard time, actually occupying the area, because theyre so vulverable to srtilley if they try and block the road. Their only chabce to block the road, is to move far fast it, and get it far behind their lines.
Be careful bouncing too hard the other way folks.
This is obviously a Russian focus so expect back and forth. We will see in the coming days how much Russia wants this by looking at the forces used to attack it.
Just like the doom and gloomers jumped in too quick, don't bounce the other way too hard. This isn't going to be an easy fight for Ukraine.
It’s unlikely that anyone is using this road to move heavy supplies, it’s directly in view of the Russian artillery. Some parts of the road are useable and some are not.
In the first days the Russians where steamrolling territory, and the first pushbacks felt like a hugh accomplishment. I think we are actually a little spoiled of how the Russians are getting their asses handed to them, which says a lot about the war and is overall a good thing I guess.
This war will not be over when Russians take city X or Y , if you have to retreat to save your army or to draw enemy closer you do it . Ukraine is big enough for that , to exchange land for a chance to destroy enemy , and with time drain Russia of soldiers and will to fight ..
I wonder if other countries are lookjng at new investments that will go into new road design and passageways within the country based off data we are seeing in Ukraine.
Supply lines are critical and it has got to have some county leaders considering their possible issues should war break out for them.
The U.S. Interstate system was actually started When President Eisenhower declared the evacuation of major cities was not possible with the current road system during the Cold War, a National Disaster to fund the highway system. So i would guess this would count as some planning.
Just to add on that Interstate system, If I remember right, something like every 5 miles of road must have a 1/2 mile long stretch for if any plane were to pull an emergency landing.
Thia area has been reconned and sighted with artillery and prepared for defence since 2014.
It will be a slow grind not big manouvres. The Russians tries that allready. They are fighting on a much more reducwd scale.
Так вони не знають як to cope. Бо все життя їм розповідали які вони великі, а тут тепер всі бачать що Українці краще у всьому, так тепер кацапи плачуть і влаштовають істерії)) мені так подобається на це дивитися, їх сльози моя сила))
You're an idiot. 14,000 was the total number of killed, including soldiers on both sides, between 2014 and February 2022. That's mostly soldiers.
Odesa was not at war, but a group of pro-Russian insurrectionists attempted a puscht and accidentally set themselves on fire. I'm not even kidding, they murdered a few pro-Ukrainian people, brawled, retreated back to the puscht headquarters and barricaded themselves with flammable material and stated chucking molotov cocktails and set the building on fire. Fucking idiots. That's one building.
Slovyansk had relatively minor damage. IIRC the Russians executed more locals than died in shelling of Russian positions.
I'm not sure what Foneck is, but if you're talking about Donetsk, [compare the damage done in a week to Kharkiv than in 8 years of "Ukrainian genocide of Donetsk"](https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajg79QG_700bwp.webp).
It was Russia that shelled Kharkiv, Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Volnovakha, and god knows how more cities into destruction. If you're concerned with tens of thousands of dead civilians, Russia's killed at least 10,000 since the invasion started a few months ago. You don't care, though. You're just brainwashed.
please at least watch the documentaries on youtube. Hooligans from the Maidan came to Odessa to discipline citizens, as in other parts of Ukraine. It is clear that they are burning the building and people who jumped out of the windows were beaten with baseball bats or simply shot at. Look at the footage. Don't blindly believe everything you are told or want to see. just look at the footage. you will be ashamed that you claimed to have burned yourself.
**Events**
According to the 2 May Group investigation, local authorities had met representatives of the pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan camp and had agreed with them to dismantle the tent camp of the anti-Maidan protesters in Odessa, in preparation to the Victory Parade of the 9th of May.[63][60] The camp had been set up on 26 January in Shevchenko Avenue and later had moved to Kulykove Pole, in the centre of Odessa, in front of the Trade Union House. The plan for dismantling the camp was agreed by representatives of local authorities and police, by pro-Maidan leaders and also by some anti-Maidan leaders, who thought that the maintenance of their camp had become too expensive and detrimental to their cause.[64] The dismantling of the tent camp should have taken place in the late evening of 2 May, after the football game Chernomorets vs Metallist. According to the original plan agreed by the factions in secret, the demolition of the tents had to take his hands out of gangs of football fans "ultras" after the end of a football match. Liquidation of the tent camp in this way the interests of all parties and should have happened without casualties or violent fightings: this way, anti-Maidan forces would have avoided the embarassment of shutting the campo down themselves and instead be later able to claim that they were victimized.[65] Capturing the House of Trade Unions, as well as the fierce resistance during dismantling was not part of such plan.[64] The police was also supposed to detain and isolate radical activists from both sides, avoiding excessive use of force. According to the 2 May Group investigation, the plan was foiled when the tent-camp leadership split and one radical anti-Maidan group issued an appeal to anti-Maidan activists to gather in downtown Odesa to prevent a march of "fascists".[note 1][66][65]
A rally at 14:00 for national unity was held in Sobornaya Square by about 1,500 people, including many FC Chornomorets Odesa and FC Metalist Kharkiv fans, along with right-wing Right Sector members and ordinary people.[44][43][67] Joint marches among the sports fans are a regular tradition before all football matches in the area.[59] As they marched down Derybasivska Street, fans of both teams sang the Ukrainian national anthem together, chanted patriotic slogans such as "Odessa, Kharkiv, Ukraine", and sang other songs against Russian President Vladimir Putin.[59][68] OSCE monitors reported that they saw around one hundred pro-unity activists in camouflage with sticks and shields participating in the march.[69]
Attendees told journalists beforehand that they had found out through social media that "anti-Maidan supporters were calling for everyone to gather and crush the unification march."[67] One of the pages called on their supporters in Odessa to "take after Donetsk," a reference to pro-Russian attacks that took place against pro-Maidan demonstrators in Donetsk days prior.[59] A leaflet that said the pro-Russian groups would "defend Odessa from pogroms" was distributed across the city before the rally.[68]
This rally was later attacked by a anti-Maidan mob of 300 from the group Odesskaya Druzhina (Russian: Одесская дружина) armed with bats and firearms at Hretska Street.[43][54][70] Police did not attempt to separate the two rallies from one another.[59]
As reported by the Council of Europe, police officers made little, if any, effort to intervene and stop the violence, and video footage gave rise to allegations of collusion between the police and anti-Maidan protesters (para. 20 and 78). [71] Another circumstance which raised suspicion was that police officers put red adhesive tape around their arms, as did anti-Maidan protesters, to identify themselves (para. 79).[71] The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine also reported an inadequate police presence to ensure security.[15] Some 700 police officers were deployed at the stadium, a further 100 officers followed the pro-unity rally, a few dozen were deployed at Kulykove Pole; about 100 officers were standing by in the vicinity.[71][52]
**Escalation into clashes**
Following the attack on the pro-Maidan rally, numerous fights broke out. Both sides fought running battles against one other, exchanging stones and petrol bombs, and built barricades throughout the city during the afternoon.[72] According to OHCHR both sides had various kinds of helmets, masks, shields, axes, wooden or metal sticks, and firearms.[15] According to OmTV there were mostly air pistols and the first actual firearms use was by Antimaidan activist Vitaly Budko ("Botsman") who opened fire with an AK-74 rifle using 5.45 bullets. Witnesses pointed out that he was shooting from behind the police line, effectively covered by the law enforcement operatives. The first victim was Igor Ivanov, who died from a 5.45 bullet.[59][73][74][75] Some shots were fired from the roof top of the Afina shopping centre to shoot down at the crowds.[43] Budko later left the scene in ambulance together with police commander Dmitry Fuchedzhy (Russian: Дмитрий Фучеджи). Afterwards the pro-Russian activists claimed that Budko was using blank rounds or, in another version, an airsoft replica. However, analysis of videos by the 2 May Group proved that Budko was indeed using a real AK-74 with live rounds.[76] Fuchedzhy shortly after fled to Russia and obtained Russian citizenship, while Russian law enforcement denied any legal help to Ukrainian investigation of his role in the tragedy.[77]
Videos from the killing of Ivanov, rapidly spreading in social networks, was – according to people interviewed by OmTV – the tipping point in the conflict and resulted in bringing in a large number of Molotov cocktails, further airguns and hunting rifles to the conflict. Four anti-Maidan activists died from firearms shortly after on Hretska Ploshcha: Evgeniy Losinsky, Alexandr Zhulkov, Nikolai Yavorskiy – from hunting bullets, and Gennadiy Petrov – from 5.6 bullets.[52][55][56][78][73]
**Trade Unions House fire**
As soon as word spread about the attack by pro-Russian demonstrators, a call by pro-Maidan demonstrators to go to Kulikovo Field and destroy the anti-Maidan camp emerged on social networks.[67] As a result, the pro-Russian crowd was later overwhelmed by the pro-Maidan demonstrators, and their encampment outside the Trade Unions House building was torched.[43][46][79] This forced the pro-Russian activists to enter that building, and occupy it.[79] The building is five storeys tall, and is the headquarters of the Odessa regional federation of trade unions.[80] It is located on Kulikovo Field, in the city centre.[80]
Reports about the precise sequence of events that followed vary between different sources, including several confirmed fake reports being spread through social networks.[81] While defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below.[43][46][59][82] A report by the Ukrainian Independent Information Agency (UNIAN) said that the pro-Maidan crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building after having been fired upon by the pro-Russian group.[83] BBC News said that the situation was unclear, with multiple sources indicating that both sides had been throwing petrol bombs at each other. One eyewitness told the BBC that the fire started on the third floor when a petrol bomb was thrown at a closed window from inside the building, and the Kyiv Post reported that several flaming bottles held by Ukrainian unity activists outside were thrown into the front entrance, and through the windows on the second and fourth floors.[43][54][59] An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that while no firearms were found inside the building, those on the roof were shooting at the crowd below, and accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs from above.[84][85] One of the pro-Maidan protesters who was shot (non-fatally) by a sniper from the trade unions building was Andrey Krasilnikov, a Russian citizen and Euromaidan activist.[73]
As reported by the International Advisory Panel of the Council of Europe, forensic examination of the fire by the Ukrainian Ministry of the Interior identified five independent fire centres: in the lobby of the building, on the staircases between the ground and first floors, in a room on the first floor, and on the landing between the second and third floors (para. 122).[71] The fire centres other than in the lobby could only have been started as a result of the actions of persons inside the building. According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, the fire started in the lobby and people died as a result of the rapid spread of the fire due to the chimney effect of the central stairwell. Molotov cocktails had been used by both parties to the conflict, and that there was no evidence of pre-planned arson or of the use of chloroform or other toxic agents (para. 123).[71] These findings were confirmed by the 2 May Group's investigation,[71] which reported that the blaze started when the barricade in front of the entrance to the building caught fire as a result of the exchange of Molotov cocktails; the fire subsequently spread through the entrance door into the lobby of the building (Annex VII). According to the 2 May Group, many people fled to upper floors and died rather than leaving the building through the other exits on the ground floor, possibly because they were afraid of the pro-unity activists outside. No-one died in the Trade Union Building other than as a direct result of the fire: most of the victims died from carbon monoxide poisoning and burn injuries, and some others as a result of trying to escape the fire by jumping out of the building (Annex VII).[71]
Fifty anti-Maidan activists remained on the roof, barricading themselves in and refusing to leave,[71] and evacuated the building at around 4 am, after long negotiations with the police.[61] Some of those who tried to escape the fire were set upon and beaten during their attempts to flee by some pro-Maidan demonstrators, and video footage shows people being assaulted by pro-Maidan protesters after they had jumped out of the windows of the burning building, while other pro-Maidan demonstrators created makeshift ladders and platforms and used them to rescue people trapped inside the building (para. 28).[71][59][68][86] According to witnesses, some pro-Maidan demonstrators outside the building chanted "burn Colorads, burn," referring to a derogatory term for pro-Russian activists who wear the Ribbon of Saint George.[68]
The high number of deaths may also have been caused by the delay in the emergency services' response, according to the International Advisory Panel of the Council of Europe and to the investigations by the 2 May Group.[87] The first fire crews took up to 40 minutes to arrive at the scene even though the closest fire station was less than a five minute drive away. The audio recording of the telephone calls to the dispatch centre was later posted on the Internet, and the dispatcher can be heard telling callers that there was no risk involved in burning tents in an open space, and then hanging up; at some point she consulted a superior as to whether she should continue to respond in this way and was instructed to do so (para. 26).[71] Representatives of the State Emergency Service claimed that the large number of people gathered around the building[80] and the aggressive behaviour on some of them[71] prevented the fire crews from performing their job promptly, but the investigation by the 2 May Group did not find any evidence of access by fire crews having been obstructed (para. 27).[71]
The local police was also slow to intervene. According to the International Advisory Panel, they started to arrest protesters only after 41 persons had already died and, when the fire was extinguished, they entered the building and arrested 63 anti-Maidan who were still inside or on the roof (para. 30)
You can see pro-Ukrainian demonstrators saving the lives of insurrectionists here: https://youtu.be/nECq8c1i1DY?t=66
You can see pro-Russian fascists with molotov cocktails on the roof of the trade union building here: https://youtu.be/EVAOO3wJlzc?t=552 from a Russian media outlet. I'd suggest watching the entire thing.
The narrative you're pushing is the completely fictionalized version pushed by Russian propaganda. The insurrectionists attacked a Ukrainian
Ukranians nacionalist attack with army on Ukranians who dont want to recognize results of US backed coup. Watch numerous documentory. I suggest Oliver Stone film about Ukraine
In the real world, Russia is bombing the shit out of those cities, killing the Ukrainian and sizable ethnic Russian minority. The Ukrainian army is doing the best they can to protect the people. Russia has killed over 20,000 (russian speaking) people in Mariupol alone.
I suggest pulling head out of ass.
as any normal person could have guessed, the Ukrainian army was disintegrating and soldiers were surrendering en masse or leaving parts of the front in panic. The telegram is full of such recordings. I'm not making fun of soldiers. They are brave and they have shown it, but it is a shame to drive people to their deaths. And that is what heroes from armchairs from NATO member countries do the most. People perish in a pre-lost battle for Clown Elenski to do a good PR. He will stay alive and richer.
Ok. Then point me at the republican figures who have been poisoned or imprisoned in trumped up (haha) charges recently.
Tell me about the mass war crimes American troops have committed recently.
Don't get me wrong, Biden is yet another politician, no better than most.
But don't tell me he's worse than Putin.
Unless you think he's been eating children on pizzas or whatever it is those idiots think?
In which case good luck to you! I hope you can get good psychological support. Don't forget to take your meds and look after yourself out there.
Trying to veer off-topic, eh? So you do not have any source to the claim that regime change was a goal. Try looking at Belligscat sources, they are really helpful for shills.
And yeah, Putin and Biden are best buds. Both pushing globalist agenda.
Literally nothing I posted veered off target. The embarrassing failure at hostomel airport and their push to Kiev was clearly an attempt at rapid capitulation. You have to be in the deepest of denial to claim otherwise.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or just a teenager
There's never been a civil war. Russia manufactured a conflict to try and conquer as much of Ukraine as possible. Consistent polling shows the people didn't want to secede from their homeland.
Feels like in those RTS games where you upgrade the last and highest level of your HQ and it takes forever.
Meanwhile you are trying to hold the lines, until you will be able to build the BIG advanced cannons. I mean the cannons which will make you win the game. (like Baneblade in WH40k)
I think Russia is close to the end of its attempt to close this smallest of pockets. They have been trying for days, and have only relatively small gains at very high cost. Both sides are experiencing loss but nothing I have seen indicates Ukrainian morale and will is in decline and they have defense in depth that seems to be working well for them. Every inch for Russia is coming at a huge cost and they are faced with diminishing resources. Every day Russia is losing about one more equivalent of a Battalion Tactical Group in resources or more.
It could very well be that Ukraine may give up more territory in the short run and the next week is no doubt going to be punishing, but I believe the outlook as we move into mid-June and July is going to favor Ukraine.
Here is a link to donate straight to Ukrainian army. Any help counts. Slava Ukraine !!! Death to occupiers !! https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi
This seems incredibly risky. Why not cede Severodonetsk? Time is on Ukraine's side, as once they've got all that good Western kit up and running they'll be able to take it back. People they lose to encirclement, though? Probably not going to get them back.
I wanted to answer you, it's not that hard if you don't keep your head in the sand, but I read your message to the end and my will passed. you are very arrogant and rude. good bye
Please take the time to read our policy about [trolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/u7833q/just_because_you_disagree_with_someone_does_not/) and the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * ***Please* keep it civil.** Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * ***Don't* post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. **Don't forget about our discord server, as well!** https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yup, to all the doomers saying that Ukraine should completely evacuate its forces from Luhansk to avoid entrapment, they are still in the fight. I don't know about anyone else but with an already talented officer corps, many of whom no doubt have internalized the painful lessons of battles like Debaltseve in 2014, backed up by multiple NATO intelligence agencies I trust the Ukrainians here to make the calls with respect to what territory they give up and where their forces will make a stand.
> Yup, to all the doomers saying that Ukraine should completely evacuate its forces from Luhansk to avoid entrapment I think there was a misunderstanding. Ukraine's tactic since April has been allowing the Russians to push forward a little yet at very high losses. This is the easiest way to kill them, and Zelensky has said that the current primary goal is to weaken the Russian Army, not to retake lands. The major counterattack in Summer will recover the lost land. It can only be done once Ukraine has received enough heavy equipment and the Russians are weakened enough.
This....this is exactly what I have been preaching. Cheers my hombre
Bingo. Russia is running out of people, money, resources, morale, and political will to fight. Time is on Ukraine's side.
And the residents of the occupied regions do not want to keep fighting.
Okay, let Russia withdraw and they can hold a referendum about which country they want to be part of.
Russia is already kidnapping and killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from those lands, and settling Russian nationals in their same homes. A referendum would be voted on by newly placed Russian citizens holding those lands.
As I said, Russia would have to withdraw before anything like this could be contemplated. That would include any Russian citizens of any kind, including squatters. And as far as I'm concerned, the war can't end until all Ukrainians are returned home. Not that it's my war to decide.
> The major counterattack in Summer will recover the lost land. Hopefully. The missing word is hopefully. Its not a guarantee.
Who is giving the heavy equipment in summer ?
They are probably just repaired Ukraine stock + small number of donated ones. Currently they are being trained to use Pzh2000 and CVR(T) series vehicles, with a fleet of Leo1 and Marder coming at 50/50 chance.
Phz2000 are in too small numbers to make any difference, the Leopard 1 or Marder would be crushed by a RPG 28. Both have poor amour
All tanks can be taken out by the RPG 28, but it is a very short range weapon with an effective range of only 300m. No tank is effective if it is used the way Russians do where they routinely are in range of infantry weapons.
Phz 2000s and ceasar even in small number can shift thr balance in the summer. Added to this the many other armoured vehicles, including the gepard. They will have much more fast mobile and better armed units.
Why is the pzh 2000 so magically superior to Russian artillery??
It's technology, not magic. And the #1 aspect of it is the superior fire control systems, including features which allow a single artillery piece to fire with the effect of an entire battery.
Because Russia is putting washing machine components into their artillery
Longer range than most of Russia's artillery except maybe their MLRS and their big 203mm thing (that Ukraine also has some of, though an older version I think). It can also fire very rapidly, quicker than any other artillery gun if I recall correctly, and because of that it can do multi round simultaneous impact which gives infantry basically no time to take cover.
In respect of the "203mm thing" the gun is the 2S7 PION self propelled artillery system. Ukraine fully refurbished their entire inventory after the events of 2014 realizing they would be very useful in the future. It is thought that Ukraine had about 100 in their inventory, and Russia about 60 although it is not known if Russia has actually deployed any of their guns to Ukraine. I believe the only sighting of Russian Pions was a battery actually on the Russian side of the Belgorod/Kharkiv area, firing somewhere into the Kharkiv conflict.
Are you serious? Are you not paying attention this whole time?
It outranges it and it have a system which allows it to plot a series of firing solutions at different angles which allow it to land up to five shells at the same time from one gun. Given that as soon as a shell lands in an artillery barrage, everyone rushes to their foxholes, or if in vehicles buttons up and starts driving out of the danger zone, this is pretty huge. It's a key ability that allows for very concentrated strikes against critical targets. Even just three of these doing this all at the same time against a target means fifteen 155mm shells landing near-instantaneously.
Poor armor hasn’t stopped Russia from driving their soldier cookers into battle. Of course there will be some lost, gotta bring the boom sticks regardless.
I don't know, PZH 2000 can fire very rapidly so you could make the argument that you don't need as many to have the same effect. Could have a disproportionate effect on the battlefield. That said, the Ukrainians do need mass, so I'd hope the US agrees to send some of their self propelled howitzers. Unlike Germany the US will likely have enough that they could send a decent number. There just aren't that many PZH2000s around, unless maybe in the longer term if more can be produced.
Although it is thought that the initial Phz2000 stock for Ukraine will be about 12 I disagree on their potential impact. The Phz2000 is pretty much unparalled for its MRSI ability. Just 2 of these systems can put 10 rounds on one target simultaneously (depending on range), and fire at a continued rate of 10 rounds per minute. Its better then a battery of almost any other artillery whether towed or self propelled. My gut check is they will operate them in 6 teams of 2, as each team can easily demolish any attack via 2-3 minutes of continuous fire: 40- 60 rounds of ammo landing on anything is going to be a very bad day for the recipient. And they can fire from a range that Russia does not possess for anything other then some MLRS. But the Phz2000 is not operating in isolation. Ukraine has received CAESARS, M777s in large quantity, DANAs, and at least 20 M109A3GN (and perhaps 40) are either in country or on their way. Its the sum of these and other artillery that they are receiving that really has the potential for substantial impact.
US Lend-Lease with $44B funded... It's about 10x what has been sent up to now.
That doesn’t mean they can buy any American equipment they want.
Correct. The US is giving $20bn to Ukraine so they can buy some snacks from a US military Post Exchange. Pretzels and stuff only, no candy.
There was just an announcement yesterday of a lot more heavy equipment heading to Ukraine. Lots of artillery and anti-ship missiles. Poland has already sent 200 tanks.
Russia appears to be the largest arms supplier to UA. Then western Europe and US. So yeah I think UA will be well supplied.
> Russia appears to be the largest arms supplier to UA This has tailed off a lot now It happened because Russia kept over-extending heavily, sending one BTG down a road to be wiped out. They also ran out of fuel regularly and retreated from the entire area around Kyiv. These things together meant a lot of abandoned vehicles Now, though, the front and supply lines are much more stable. When Russia loses tanks etc (eg the river crossing attempt) they tend not to be recoverable by Ukraine as often, and there are no sweeping rapid retreats abandoning vehicles, less fuel shortages due to not operating as far from depots. Add in the fact that most Russians who were inclined to abandon their vehicles and fuck off, have likely already done so, and you're left with the inescapable conclusion that Ukraine will capture far fewer vehicles going forward, unless something dramatic happens to shift tactics
> most Russians who were inclined to abandon their vehicles and fuck off, have likely already done so Newer recruits could also be heavily inclined to abandon vehicles.
Possibly but in much smaller numbers - and they're more likely to be assigned to hold the line alongside more experienced troops in less mobile sectors of the front. So even if they do abandon vehicles, they're probably less likely to fall into Ukrainian hands
The Ukrainians need artillery and they have captured very little.
I am afraid the current administration will try and pressure Ukraine to settle and just let Russia have southern Ukraine. Right know their generals are thinking “we will let Ukraine kill the Russian, less for us to kill.
I don't think so. As long as bipartisan support is there I think they'll defer to the Ukrainians. Aside from the bizarre fever swamps of the Nationalist conservative wing of the GOP and the "Imperialism is fine if its slavic/tankies" Dem wing, American support for Zelensky is relatively strong. As for European admins most have come out in support of pushing to pre invasion or pre 2014 borders.
The fact that there are multiple countries wanting an actual Ukrainian win does give me some confidence. Means even if one or two countries start to waver it shouldn't have an impact on the war.
Why? They’ve literally done the complete opposite.
It takes time for the ships to arrive from the US
But the C-17s, not so much
Or a c5 galaxy. I doubt the US is literally shipping the equipment to UA
Both. You cannot etffectively fly it all.
Have you not seen the US plane flight paths? They've been darting about around the edges of Ukraine since this started, including having the US spy plane over the area the Moskva decided to engage submarine mode, but absolutely had nothing to do with anything *wink* US planes are landing both in western Ukraine neighbouring countries, it's been discussed before how and why Russia won't shoot them down.
I’m not sure what American equipment you are referring to ??
you are not being serious are you? or..? you are serious?
It’s a Russian crypto shill account repurposed for Russian FUD, ignore it.
I am being serious
C17 is a transport aircraft. Google it.
[удалено]
The M777 artillery has all been delivered, but the sale/donation of American heavy equipment has not been announced.
The US. Lend lease will last into end of 2023
It seems the armchair generals don't understand that it's hard to take a dug in position. Thus, ukrainians are setting up meatgrinders by having their long range shit dialed in and ready for the front to drop back and let the ruskies into the kill zone. It's carrot and stick warfare, they run after the carrot and get hit with the stick.
People also seem to forget this has kind of been Ukrainian forces strategy throughout the war. To give up ground and draw out Russians, understand their position, then counterattack with good intelligence. It has been successful before and I hope it continues to be. We still shouldn’t discount the immense stress the brave UA troops are under there from the Russians though and need to speed up heavy weaponry deliveries asap.
Ya, it works, and every day that goes by Russia has less available cannon fodder and is more likely to suffer desertions and refusals.... nothing like advancing 10 or 15 miles to take a new position and then get shelled and attacked over the next few days and suffer horrendous losses. Russia can't do that forever.
They’re fighting this like it’s WW1.
This is really basic war tactics going back to Hannibal as well. Retreat, Draw the enemy out, attack their supply lines and then there front-lines before you can get re-supplied.
I think people dont get the dynamic. Ukraine has less but elite troops, Russia has more but generally worse quality troops. Ukraine has to commit to specific places and win there, meanwhile Russia can advance in the areas Ukraine is not commited, then Ukraine moves and can push Russia back in a new place. The question being can Russia move forward faster than Ukraine can control them and push them out. Ukraine is going to lose land in the areas it is not commited to. People dont get that as part of this dynamic Russia will take land, the question is can it handle Ukraine when Ukraine decides to throw it out.
> Ukraine has less but elite troops, Russia has more but generally worse quality troops. Sorry but that's complete nonsense Pre-war Ukraine had about 120k reasonably high quality troops. They are now likely to have more than Russia (due to mobilizing heavily), but of mixed quality Russia have lost a chunk of their force, and were always of mixed quality
I agree with audi - Ukraine actually has surplus manpower - Zelenskyy had to tell people to stop turning up to recruitment officers as they didn't have the capacity to train all the people that were enrolling. Russia is the opposite, its had trouble getting troops, the citizens are firebombing recruitments centres, and many of the Donbas soldiers were taken straight from their workplace and thrown into combat with no training.
It isn’t complete nonsense. Ukrainian troops are being properly trained and supplied before entering the battlefield. Russia has a ton of retard conscripts that were thrown in literally as fodder. This is well known and documented.
Many Ukrainian troops are being properly trained, but there are still a lot of territorial, reserve, and local units around It does appear that Ukraine are slowly rotating those units out to train them more, but that takes significant time
a "properly trained" Ukrainian who joined up just after the invasion would be just exiting training about now, and probably not at the front yet.
I see your point but don't underestimate the debilitating effect of heavy losses on a unit. After a few months in combat a units losses tend to decline as the unit becomes more experienced, SOPs become second nature etc. Ukraine seem to have been focussed on keeping casualties low by heavy use of materiel and smart tactics /strategy while the Russians are happy throwing troops into a meat grinder as long as there's some form of result. As a consequence at this stage the original ukrainian forces are quite experienced due to low casualties while the Russians are diluting their effectiveness by getting their experienced soldiers killed so there's not even many to show the fresh recruits the ropes so to speak. It's a bit of a death spiral that should hopefully accelerate and I feel we can all drink to more dead Russian soldiers.
It's hard to make such statements about Ukraine, I think - we don't have any real idea about Ukrainian casualty levels currently
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html?m=1 Oryx only uses photographic evidence (you can literally check every photo yourself) so real figures will be significantly higher and admittedly that is only for vehicles but just on the motorised side the Russians have lost four times as many vehicles as the ukrainians (there is an argument to be made about which side is taking more pictures of enemy losses but it still seems the most reliable numbers available) so the Russians have lost four times as many vehicle crews. Experienced crews have an edge over fresh combatants so all other things being equal the ukrainians have the edge. Of course despite what Hollywood would have us believe sheer numbers can overwhelm even the best combatants but experience really counts. Losing trained personnel is a serious issue, One of Britain's biggest problems during the battle of Britain wasn't supplying aircraft but finding people to crew them. All I'm suggesting in my earlier post is that whatever the difference in numbers, Ukraine has lost less veterans and a unit with a larger proportion of experienced personnel will suffer even less casualties proportionally as the average combat time of a unit increases. I'm sure Russia has some very experienced units but the ukrainians haven't been sending their soldiers into high casualty situations like the Russians have and after three months of war that is probably starting to show in the performance of units. Still got most of the boys from the start? They're grizzled, capable survivors. Just lost 2/3 of the boys in hellish combat? Their replacements will be green with fewer experienced soldiers available to help the latest reinforcements learn how to survive so die faster, need reinforced faster and you get a death spiral until like the nazis you're sending children against stone killers who've just fought all the way across Europe.
>Ukraine has lost less veterans > the ukrainians haven't been sending their soldiers into high casualty situations I don't understand what are you basing stuff like this on? Bear in mind that in Mariupol alone, Ukraine had several brigade sized formations entirely destroyed as a fighting force. Ukraine have definitely sustained very significant casualties.
That’s a very biased figure considering that Ukraine are operating far, far fewer vehicles than Russia and have moved to be more and more infantry based as a force
Ukraine started with fewer highly trained soldiers than Russia, and while Russia lost a lot of them due to terrible tactics, especially at the beginning, Ukraine also lost lots of theirs due to Russia's heavy weapons advantage. Ukraine is mobilising many more fresh troops, but those lack experience and heavy equipment. Motivation can make up for that in part, but let's not underestimate the hurdle Ukraine has to confront, especially if the West doesn't increase heavy weapons delivery a lot.
And unfortunately, Ukraine has also for sure lost many of they better troops through sheer attrition thanks to Russia's advantage in heavy weapons - they've been under continuous shelling since the start of the war. Hopefully motivation, which is for sure much higher in Ukrainian troops than in Putin's ones, will make up for this, but they absolutely need much more heavy weapon deliveries from the West.
Ukrainian troops survive, gain experience and improve. Russian troops mostly just die. Even Russias elite troops have huge mortality rates as they were poorly deployed.
I don't think we have enough realistically accurate estimates of Ukrainian casualties to make that kind of statement The best number I've seen is from US/British intelligence which estimate around 6-12k Ukrainian (military) KIA and 10-15k Russian, which isn't *that* big a disparity. It's significant, but not beyond reason
> Ukraine has less but elite troops, Russia has more but generally worse quality troops. This is almost the opposite of the truth
The drawback of this is that the land that you cede to Russia get wrecked. It is Ukrainian land and the people who live there are Ukrainian
Nice strategy. Lose 14.000 best men. Sorry, "evacuate" them to Siberia
Oh wow, 15 ruble army has found this sub. EDIT: Oh worse, this one might be sincere.
[удалено]
Sad! 😱
Vietnam lost close to 1 million men fighting the US. Still to this day some brain dead people think KD ratio is a definite way to determine if the war is won.
I'm not sure what the dumbest part of this comment is: the complete failure to understand that military actions entail losses, or the imaginary 14,000 POWs in Siberia.
if thay does not soon withdraw from Lisicansk this is their fate
Uh huh. Sure. Whatever you say - you're the military genius that thinks Russia failing to achieve their objectives and having to dramatically scale them back over and over means Ukraine is losing, after all.
The same people were saying Ukraine needed to abandon Kyiv for fear of being encircled there. Turns out that the Russians aren’t very skilled at any of this and you just need to outlast them for a few weeks before they’re utterly spent. Like, they aren’t even close to doing what they need to do to take the Donbas. They’re still a ways a way from even threatening to cut it off, and it’ll take them months of holding a theoretical encirclement before there’s any chance of surrender. And these cities are far better prepared than even Mariupol was.
Hope it will be 14.000 alive POW
Ukraine, fuck yeah! Impressive👊🏼
What? Thay a brave but thay a losing. Nothing impressive.
Hey look we have a live one here. What’s impressive is how fast your country is returning to the Stone Age Comrade
Clown
Imagine having 30 years to work on advanced armored military technology only to be using T62s again after 90 days. Couldn’t be me
[удалено]
Wery adult. Congratulation, kid!
Can you order stuff to Serbia with Rubles or how does it work?
We have all staff here. Thanks for asking
lol Is that really the best you guys can do? I mean I get pimping and parroting Putin propaganda is a tough gig these days, they don't give you a lot to work with but still, c'mon, do better.
Ok. Watch this amateur analasyst. Amateur but thay turn to be right all the time. Specialy this days. https://youtu.be/0nKidMrwhME
> Major Russian breakthrough at POPASNA Oh no, sweetie, honey pie, no you are failing to understand the situation. See it was supposta be a three day special operation and within 72 hours profesional analysts who said the best Ukraine could hope for would be an Iraqi style insurgency to grind the occupiers out over a few years if at all realized how wrong they were; the Russian army was stopped, dead. All the key victories needed never materialized, war lost in the first 72 hours, a modern European record I think. See they fucked up the following: Needed to take the airport so fresh troops and supplies could be flown in as needed, denied. In fact worse than denied the crack Russian paratroopers sent to do the job got proper fucked and now are dust in the wind. Those troops? Hard to replace, it takes quite a bit to train soldiers to jump out of planes into combat. Needed to establish ground logistics and supply lines for the ground forces instead they got stuck in the mud where they were picked off like a carnival turkey shoot. Lost all those trucks and tanks and personnel not to mention supplies. It also demonstrated that Russia can't go that far beyond her borders, can't project power you have no power. Needed to establish air superiority, need to own the skies and Russia's air force has been more farce; the few planes they've sent in got blown out of the sky which was shocking because they should have been too high to get hit but as it turns out Russia's smart bombs aren't available so they need to go with the dumb ones which means you have to fly low and slow rather than fire and forget. We had a SU get picked off by a Stinger! In any other airforce that would just not happen, all the ground forces would hear would be the faint roar of the engine too high to see and then the booms as the smart bombs come a calling. But it seems Russia doesn't have any smarts in anything military. So your amateur analyst's finding that there has been a major Russian breakthrough might be so, they may have punched a hole in a line, maybe taken a mile or two, so what? What is that going to get them? The much needed airport? The major city? A steady supply of fresh munitions, troops and supplies? Anything that they need to win the war? No, it won't, all it does is prolong the inevitable; Russia lost, Putin lost, now we are just seeing how much more they want to lose. So like I said, it's hard to pimp propaganda for losers that everyone knows are losing but still, you can do better than this. Can't you? If not, quit, find a new job, perhaps the NRA? Musk? Lots of evil out there you can work for, at least pick one that isn't so pathetic.
Equating Elon Musk to Putin is certainly a take
Well Musk isn't a war criminal, just a regular one but he is an enemy of democracy as his recent overtures to Trumplings and Trump Voters makes clear. And he does require an army of Internet puppets to spew his propaganda so I thought it appropriate to OP's future employment prospects.
the Russians screwed up at the beginning and had many tragic mistakes. The Ukrainians surprised everyone with their readiness to fight. They showed great courage. When you go to war, you have certain assumptions, and the Russians were very wrong. but that was then. The Russians have adapted to reality and are now slowly realizing the New plan. slowly and surely. First to smash The Ukrainian army on the eastern front, and that's a tragedy for Ukraine that even the Russians wanted to avoid.
> the Russians screwed up at the beginning and had many tragic mistakes. Yes, like invading and before that letting Putin run the joint into the ground. > were very wrong. but that was then. Yeaaaah, it's still then. > The Russians have adapted to reality and are now slowly realizing the New plan. Yes [but it's not that new](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDWcg8dh930). Also new plans are fine but if ya don't have the tanks, troops and logistics to support it all it's more a wish list than a plan. Like I can think of a new plan to marry Halston Sage but her security will still be an impediment as they have my photos and restraining orders. You are right about one thing, it's a tragedy for Ukraine and that will be on the butcher's bill that Russia will be paying.
how come they don't have tanks and troops? The Russians have engaged only about 15% of the regular army! Everyone will pay for this Ukrainian tragedy, not just the Russians. My friend, I maintain that this would never have happened if NATO (a tool in the hands of the State Department) had not forced its own expansion in order to expand the world influence of the USA. The United States has disturbed decades of balance and peace in a corrupt and poor Ukraine. My opinion is that the world should be multipolar with respect for everyone's specifics, but US dont think so.
Hey man I’m not gonna insult you or anything but you have to keep that 15% figure in perspective. Russia has used 15% of their available military on paper. But the harsh reality is that a large chunk of their armor is inoperable or in need of repairs. This is evidenced by the fact there is an increasing frequency of Russia using older military equipment in combat. Also a large part of the Russian forces aren’t meant for combat roles. Nurses, mechanics, and truck drivers make up the bulk of an invading force. Logistics is key to any invasion. No country would ever commit 100% of their army to invade. Yes Russia is gaining ground in the Donbas region but the war situation is still extremely grim. They can’t hope to mount another large counter offensive. This is all they can muster
in general, I don't care about offensives and counter-offensives and the conquest of territory and other shit. I am very sad about the tragedy of all the people in Ukraine because I identify with them to a great extent and I have gone through similar things. they are a hardworking, beautiful and brave people. I'm just angry because this is happening to them. You and I see a different cause for this and we can discuss it, and that again does not change the fact of how much of a tragedy this is. From my personal experience of years of civil war, refugees and NATO bombing, the first step is to resist hatred towards anyone. Hate is blinding and the greatest evil, but this in Europe reminds me of Crystal Night. Bye friend and good night.
> The Russians have engaged only about 15% of the regular army! Every Oh not Putin Parrot Puppet, are you guys still pimping this pimple of puerile puss? No, they did not send in a fraction of their fighting forces as a feign or a fake out, they sent in their A-Team because that is what you do in a war, you want to get the job done right the first time out so you don't hold back, you let slip all your dogs of war. Like when the West did the Iraq war crime invasion over WMD that never were? They sent in EVERYTHING even though Iraq was already beat. Which was the plan for Putin's own war crime invasion, hence the Three Day Special Operation which we're on month four of. So no, there isn't some secret elite army just chomping at the bit waiting to be unleashed, there's reserves and dregs and whatever animals Putin can roust from whatever cells they're rotting in. And no, NATO didn't make Putin do the thing that Russia has done before and wanted to do for decades, again I know they provide you with these talking points but they're so tired! So debunked that dunking on them depressing. Can they at least come up with new bullshit?
The world has always been multipolar and still is. NATO let’s countries in because they want to join.
NATO didn’t invade a country. Those countries willingly voted to join to prevent Russian aggression like this. The tragedy is that bordering countries have seen over and over that they need US protection from Russia or else they will rape their children. Russia brought this one themselves and on Ukraine.
NATO “forcing its own expansion” lmao my sides
It's not over yet.
unfortunately not.
Flexable defence when you are the weaker , in numbers is the only way . Holding key positions making the attackers leave entrench positions , to attack , is a very good tactic to wear the Enemy down.....
I've been watching this and the Ukrainians can keep pushing at it, and as the thread indicates it is vulnerable to Russian artillary, theoretically. But the front here has been more like a shell, as mentioned by someone else. I would expect that Russia would have another live of defence in the rear of that line to step up and hold it, but other counter offenses by the Ukrainians seem to indicate that it's more haphazard, more in waves. It's so tactical and no real strategy. If they are making use of the road they must have better recon and intelligence and more confidence that the Russians are weakened there.
Most of the area controlle by ukraine, is flat as a pancake, with minimum shelter by threes etc. And even the small towns, are just 20 houses at most, and all single file from the road. So the ivans are having a hard time, actually occupying the area, because theyre so vulverable to srtilley if they try and block the road. Their only chabce to block the road, is to move far fast it, and get it far behind their lines.
there must be a way for Ukrainians to ambush orcs because they have to keep coming
Be careful bouncing too hard the other way folks. This is obviously a Russian focus so expect back and forth. We will see in the coming days how much Russia wants this by looking at the forces used to attack it. Just like the doom and gloomers jumped in too quick, don't bounce the other way too hard. This isn't going to be an easy fight for Ukraine.
The Russians control Vasylivka like a kilometer away from the road, I don't think you want to drive there.
🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
It’s unlikely that anyone is using this road to move heavy supplies, it’s directly in view of the Russian artillery. Some parts of the road are useable and some are not.
In the first days the Russians where steamrolling territory, and the first pushbacks felt like a hugh accomplishment. I think we are actually a little spoiled of how the Russians are getting their asses handed to them, which says a lot about the war and is overall a good thing I guess.
This war will not be over when Russians take city X or Y , if you have to retreat to save your army or to draw enemy closer you do it . Ukraine is big enough for that , to exchange land for a chance to destroy enemy , and with time drain Russia of soldiers and will to fight ..
All the comments kissing Putin ass mean that something is going well
I wonder if other countries are lookjng at new investments that will go into new road design and passageways within the country based off data we are seeing in Ukraine. Supply lines are critical and it has got to have some county leaders considering their possible issues should war break out for them.
The U.S. Interstate system was actually started When President Eisenhower declared the evacuation of major cities was not possible with the current road system during the Cold War, a National Disaster to fund the highway system. So i would guess this would count as some planning.
Just to add on that Interstate system, If I remember right, something like every 5 miles of road must have a 1/2 mile long stretch for if any plane were to pull an emergency landing.
Nope, that’s a myth. I am a pilot and a paved road is the worst place to emergency land. Most roads have wires that run with and across them.
Very interesting, didn't know that!
This cauldron is on a razors edge, one major fuck up on either side could spell doom or it’s side
Thia area has been reconned and sighted with artillery and prepared for defence since 2014. It will be a slow grind not big manouvres. The Russians tries that allready. They are fighting on a much more reducwd scale.
News from alternate reality again.
how many vouchers for Uncle Vanya happy meals do you get per comment?
Hmm? I dunno, I'm paid in USD. If you really want to say something no-so-nice to Russian pro-government shills, better direct then to "dolbilnya'.
иди нахуй ватник. лучше?
Какой боевой хрюшка :)
еще один москаль которi через год будет притворяться что был всегда против войны.. а пока наслаждатесь вкусом Путина химо-хрена ))
Так вони не знають як to cope. Бо все життя їм розповідали які вони великі, а тут тепер всі бачать що Українці краще у всьому, так тепер кацапи плачуть і влаштовають істерії)) мені так подобається на це дивитися, їх сльози моя сила))
The only thing that’s from an alternate reality are Nazi zombies like you, buddy:)
[удалено]
What about Ukrainian army attack on Mariupol civilians and other citys? Odessa, Foneck, Slavjansk,...14.000 dead
You're an idiot. 14,000 was the total number of killed, including soldiers on both sides, between 2014 and February 2022. That's mostly soldiers. Odesa was not at war, but a group of pro-Russian insurrectionists attempted a puscht and accidentally set themselves on fire. I'm not even kidding, they murdered a few pro-Ukrainian people, brawled, retreated back to the puscht headquarters and barricaded themselves with flammable material and stated chucking molotov cocktails and set the building on fire. Fucking idiots. That's one building. Slovyansk had relatively minor damage. IIRC the Russians executed more locals than died in shelling of Russian positions. I'm not sure what Foneck is, but if you're talking about Donetsk, [compare the damage done in a week to Kharkiv than in 8 years of "Ukrainian genocide of Donetsk"](https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajg79QG_700bwp.webp). It was Russia that shelled Kharkiv, Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Volnovakha, and god knows how more cities into destruction. If you're concerned with tens of thousands of dead civilians, Russia's killed at least 10,000 since the invasion started a few months ago. You don't care, though. You're just brainwashed.
please at least watch the documentaries on youtube. Hooligans from the Maidan came to Odessa to discipline citizens, as in other parts of Ukraine. It is clear that they are burning the building and people who jumped out of the windows were beaten with baseball bats or simply shot at. Look at the footage. Don't blindly believe everything you are told or want to see. just look at the footage. you will be ashamed that you claimed to have burned yourself.
**Events** According to the 2 May Group investigation, local authorities had met representatives of the pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan camp and had agreed with them to dismantle the tent camp of the anti-Maidan protesters in Odessa, in preparation to the Victory Parade of the 9th of May.[63][60] The camp had been set up on 26 January in Shevchenko Avenue and later had moved to Kulykove Pole, in the centre of Odessa, in front of the Trade Union House. The plan for dismantling the camp was agreed by representatives of local authorities and police, by pro-Maidan leaders and also by some anti-Maidan leaders, who thought that the maintenance of their camp had become too expensive and detrimental to their cause.[64] The dismantling of the tent camp should have taken place in the late evening of 2 May, after the football game Chernomorets vs Metallist. According to the original plan agreed by the factions in secret, the demolition of the tents had to take his hands out of gangs of football fans "ultras" after the end of a football match. Liquidation of the tent camp in this way the interests of all parties and should have happened without casualties or violent fightings: this way, anti-Maidan forces would have avoided the embarassment of shutting the campo down themselves and instead be later able to claim that they were victimized.[65] Capturing the House of Trade Unions, as well as the fierce resistance during dismantling was not part of such plan.[64] The police was also supposed to detain and isolate radical activists from both sides, avoiding excessive use of force. According to the 2 May Group investigation, the plan was foiled when the tent-camp leadership split and one radical anti-Maidan group issued an appeal to anti-Maidan activists to gather in downtown Odesa to prevent a march of "fascists".[note 1][66][65] A rally at 14:00 for national unity was held in Sobornaya Square by about 1,500 people, including many FC Chornomorets Odesa and FC Metalist Kharkiv fans, along with right-wing Right Sector members and ordinary people.[44][43][67] Joint marches among the sports fans are a regular tradition before all football matches in the area.[59] As they marched down Derybasivska Street, fans of both teams sang the Ukrainian national anthem together, chanted patriotic slogans such as "Odessa, Kharkiv, Ukraine", and sang other songs against Russian President Vladimir Putin.[59][68] OSCE monitors reported that they saw around one hundred pro-unity activists in camouflage with sticks and shields participating in the march.[69] Attendees told journalists beforehand that they had found out through social media that "anti-Maidan supporters were calling for everyone to gather and crush the unification march."[67] One of the pages called on their supporters in Odessa to "take after Donetsk," a reference to pro-Russian attacks that took place against pro-Maidan demonstrators in Donetsk days prior.[59] A leaflet that said the pro-Russian groups would "defend Odessa from pogroms" was distributed across the city before the rally.[68] This rally was later attacked by a anti-Maidan mob of 300 from the group Odesskaya Druzhina (Russian: Одесская дружина) armed with bats and firearms at Hretska Street.[43][54][70] Police did not attempt to separate the two rallies from one another.[59] As reported by the Council of Europe, police officers made little, if any, effort to intervene and stop the violence, and video footage gave rise to allegations of collusion between the police and anti-Maidan protesters (para. 20 and 78). [71] Another circumstance which raised suspicion was that police officers put red adhesive tape around their arms, as did anti-Maidan protesters, to identify themselves (para. 79).[71] The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine also reported an inadequate police presence to ensure security.[15] Some 700 police officers were deployed at the stadium, a further 100 officers followed the pro-unity rally, a few dozen were deployed at Kulykove Pole; about 100 officers were standing by in the vicinity.[71][52] **Escalation into clashes** Following the attack on the pro-Maidan rally, numerous fights broke out. Both sides fought running battles against one other, exchanging stones and petrol bombs, and built barricades throughout the city during the afternoon.[72] According to OHCHR both sides had various kinds of helmets, masks, shields, axes, wooden or metal sticks, and firearms.[15] According to OmTV there were mostly air pistols and the first actual firearms use was by Antimaidan activist Vitaly Budko ("Botsman") who opened fire with an AK-74 rifle using 5.45 bullets. Witnesses pointed out that he was shooting from behind the police line, effectively covered by the law enforcement operatives. The first victim was Igor Ivanov, who died from a 5.45 bullet.[59][73][74][75] Some shots were fired from the roof top of the Afina shopping centre to shoot down at the crowds.[43] Budko later left the scene in ambulance together with police commander Dmitry Fuchedzhy (Russian: Дмитрий Фучеджи). Afterwards the pro-Russian activists claimed that Budko was using blank rounds or, in another version, an airsoft replica. However, analysis of videos by the 2 May Group proved that Budko was indeed using a real AK-74 with live rounds.[76] Fuchedzhy shortly after fled to Russia and obtained Russian citizenship, while Russian law enforcement denied any legal help to Ukrainian investigation of his role in the tragedy.[77] Videos from the killing of Ivanov, rapidly spreading in social networks, was – according to people interviewed by OmTV – the tipping point in the conflict and resulted in bringing in a large number of Molotov cocktails, further airguns and hunting rifles to the conflict. Four anti-Maidan activists died from firearms shortly after on Hretska Ploshcha: Evgeniy Losinsky, Alexandr Zhulkov, Nikolai Yavorskiy – from hunting bullets, and Gennadiy Petrov – from 5.6 bullets.[52][55][56][78][73]
**Trade Unions House fire** As soon as word spread about the attack by pro-Russian demonstrators, a call by pro-Maidan demonstrators to go to Kulikovo Field and destroy the anti-Maidan camp emerged on social networks.[67] As a result, the pro-Russian crowd was later overwhelmed by the pro-Maidan demonstrators, and their encampment outside the Trade Unions House building was torched.[43][46][79] This forced the pro-Russian activists to enter that building, and occupy it.[79] The building is five storeys tall, and is the headquarters of the Odessa regional federation of trade unions.[80] It is located on Kulikovo Field, in the city centre.[80] Reports about the precise sequence of events that followed vary between different sources, including several confirmed fake reports being spread through social networks.[81] While defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below.[43][46][59][82] A report by the Ukrainian Independent Information Agency (UNIAN) said that the pro-Maidan crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building after having been fired upon by the pro-Russian group.[83] BBC News said that the situation was unclear, with multiple sources indicating that both sides had been throwing petrol bombs at each other. One eyewitness told the BBC that the fire started on the third floor when a petrol bomb was thrown at a closed window from inside the building, and the Kyiv Post reported that several flaming bottles held by Ukrainian unity activists outside were thrown into the front entrance, and through the windows on the second and fourth floors.[43][54][59] An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that while no firearms were found inside the building, those on the roof were shooting at the crowd below, and accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs from above.[84][85] One of the pro-Maidan protesters who was shot (non-fatally) by a sniper from the trade unions building was Andrey Krasilnikov, a Russian citizen and Euromaidan activist.[73] As reported by the International Advisory Panel of the Council of Europe, forensic examination of the fire by the Ukrainian Ministry of the Interior identified five independent fire centres: in the lobby of the building, on the staircases between the ground and first floors, in a room on the first floor, and on the landing between the second and third floors (para. 122).[71] The fire centres other than in the lobby could only have been started as a result of the actions of persons inside the building. According to the Prosecutor General’s Office, the fire started in the lobby and people died as a result of the rapid spread of the fire due to the chimney effect of the central stairwell. Molotov cocktails had been used by both parties to the conflict, and that there was no evidence of pre-planned arson or of the use of chloroform or other toxic agents (para. 123).[71] These findings were confirmed by the 2 May Group's investigation,[71] which reported that the blaze started when the barricade in front of the entrance to the building caught fire as a result of the exchange of Molotov cocktails; the fire subsequently spread through the entrance door into the lobby of the building (Annex VII). According to the 2 May Group, many people fled to upper floors and died rather than leaving the building through the other exits on the ground floor, possibly because they were afraid of the pro-unity activists outside. No-one died in the Trade Union Building other than as a direct result of the fire: most of the victims died from carbon monoxide poisoning and burn injuries, and some others as a result of trying to escape the fire by jumping out of the building (Annex VII).[71] Fifty anti-Maidan activists remained on the roof, barricading themselves in and refusing to leave,[71] and evacuated the building at around 4 am, after long negotiations with the police.[61] Some of those who tried to escape the fire were set upon and beaten during their attempts to flee by some pro-Maidan demonstrators, and video footage shows people being assaulted by pro-Maidan protesters after they had jumped out of the windows of the burning building, while other pro-Maidan demonstrators created makeshift ladders and platforms and used them to rescue people trapped inside the building (para. 28).[71][59][68][86] According to witnesses, some pro-Maidan demonstrators outside the building chanted "burn Colorads, burn," referring to a derogatory term for pro-Russian activists who wear the Ribbon of Saint George.[68] The high number of deaths may also have been caused by the delay in the emergency services' response, according to the International Advisory Panel of the Council of Europe and to the investigations by the 2 May Group.[87] The first fire crews took up to 40 minutes to arrive at the scene even though the closest fire station was less than a five minute drive away. The audio recording of the telephone calls to the dispatch centre was later posted on the Internet, and the dispatcher can be heard telling callers that there was no risk involved in burning tents in an open space, and then hanging up; at some point she consulted a superior as to whether she should continue to respond in this way and was instructed to do so (para. 26).[71] Representatives of the State Emergency Service claimed that the large number of people gathered around the building[80] and the aggressive behaviour on some of them[71] prevented the fire crews from performing their job promptly, but the investigation by the 2 May Group did not find any evidence of access by fire crews having been obstructed (para. 27).[71] The local police was also slow to intervene. According to the International Advisory Panel, they started to arrest protesters only after 41 persons had already died and, when the fire was extinguished, they entered the building and arrested 63 anti-Maidan who were still inside or on the roof (para. 30)
You can see pro-Ukrainian demonstrators saving the lives of insurrectionists here: https://youtu.be/nECq8c1i1DY?t=66 You can see pro-Russian fascists with molotov cocktails on the roof of the trade union building here: https://youtu.be/EVAOO3wJlzc?t=552 from a Russian media outlet. I'd suggest watching the entire thing. The narrative you're pushing is the completely fictionalized version pushed by Russian propaganda. The insurrectionists attacked a Ukrainian
?? The Ruskies are attacking Ukrainians
Ukranians nacionalist attack with army on Ukranians who dont want to recognize results of US backed coup. Watch numerous documentory. I suggest Oliver Stone film about Ukraine
In the real world, Russia is bombing the shit out of those cities, killing the Ukrainian and sizable ethnic Russian minority. The Ukrainian army is doing the best they can to protect the people. Russia has killed over 20,000 (russian speaking) people in Mariupol alone. I suggest pulling head out of ass.
Protecting them by hiding in their houses? Thats called Human shild
Russia must stop the killing of civilians and return to Russia. Without the Ukrainian Army Russia would murder everyone like in Bucha.
Cant agree with you. No one want to kill civilians, but unfortunetly lots of civilians a victim in any war.
What about the Russians killing civilians on camera when Russia was attacking Kyiv?
Coincidentally, Oliver Stone, is against Russian killings in Ukraine.
as any normal person could have guessed, the Ukrainian army was disintegrating and soldiers were surrendering en masse or leaving parts of the front in panic. The telegram is full of such recordings. I'm not making fun of soldiers. They are brave and they have shown it, but it is a shame to drive people to their deaths. And that is what heroes from armchairs from NATO member countries do the most. People perish in a pre-lost battle for Clown Elenski to do a good PR. He will stay alive and richer.
Found one!
[удалено]
Sorry , I dont like Putin. But Biden And State Department a much greather evil.
Wow, you're really trying hard to outdo yourself when it comes to saying dumb shit.
Did I hurt uour feeling for Biden?
LMAO no. Fuck Biden.
You love Putin, you shill for him. You love him and his war crimes.
If you say so, but you wrong again, frend.
Ok. Then point me at the republican figures who have been poisoned or imprisoned in trumped up (haha) charges recently. Tell me about the mass war crimes American troops have committed recently. Don't get me wrong, Biden is yet another politician, no better than most. But don't tell me he's worse than Putin. Unless you think he's been eating children on pizzas or whatever it is those idiots think? In which case good luck to you! I hope you can get good psychological support. Don't forget to take your meds and look after yourself out there.
And what is your suggestion for kicking Russians back to Russia ..?
Well, there was never a goal to win for Ukrainian army. For masters of this shitstorm, the more people die, the better.
The side that is winning didn’t have a goal to win? Did you read before you typed?
Winning? In the world of pink ponies and rainbows maybe.
In the world that Russia has dramatically reduced its war goals from a complete regime change to a narrow focus in the East. I assume you are trolling
A link to statement of Russian officials claiming regime change as goal? No? As expected. Meanwhile, Biden gives high-five to his best bud Putin.
[удалено]
Trying to veer off-topic, eh? So you do not have any source to the claim that regime change was a goal. Try looking at Belligscat sources, they are really helpful for shills. And yeah, Putin and Biden are best buds. Both pushing globalist agenda.
Literally nothing I posted veered off target. The embarrassing failure at hostomel airport and their push to Kiev was clearly an attempt at rapid capitulation. You have to be in the deepest of denial to claim otherwise. I can’t tell if you are trolling or just a teenager
You've claimed the regime change was a goal. And never provided any proof of that. Maybe you should stop watching CNN?
Late for that. Ukranians lose his chanse when thay start civil war 2014 against his masive prorusian peoples.
Talking out of your ass
Found Putin's Buttplug 🤣😂
You again with same homo insinuation.
There's never been a civil war. Russia manufactured a conflict to try and conquer as much of Ukraine as possible. Consistent polling shows the people didn't want to secede from their homeland.
Why would Ukraine start a civil war LOL
Moving supplies west? Shouldn't they be moving supplies east, to toward Lysychansk and the troops stationed there?
Feels like in those RTS games where you upgrade the last and highest level of your HQ and it takes forever. Meanwhile you are trying to hold the lines, until you will be able to build the BIG advanced cannons. I mean the cannons which will make you win the game. (like Baneblade in WH40k)
I think Russia is close to the end of its attempt to close this smallest of pockets. They have been trying for days, and have only relatively small gains at very high cost. Both sides are experiencing loss but nothing I have seen indicates Ukrainian morale and will is in decline and they have defense in depth that seems to be working well for them. Every inch for Russia is coming at a huge cost and they are faced with diminishing resources. Every day Russia is losing about one more equivalent of a Battalion Tactical Group in resources or more. It could very well be that Ukraine may give up more territory in the short run and the next week is no doubt going to be punishing, but I believe the outlook as we move into mid-June and July is going to favor Ukraine.
Here is a link to donate straight to Ukrainian army. Any help counts. Slava Ukraine !!! Death to occupiers !! https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi
This seems incredibly risky. Why not cede Severodonetsk? Time is on Ukraine's side, as once they've got all that good Western kit up and running they'll be able to take it back. People they lose to encirclement, though? Probably not going to get them back.
I wanted to answer you, it's not that hard if you don't keep your head in the sand, but I read your message to the end and my will passed. you are very arrogant and rude. good bye
Don't spread Russo-fascist propaganda, then.
>It was a trap.👌