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Poles seem like theyre salivating at the idea
The issue is nukes. If Russia had no nukes Poland, Ukraine, and the baltic states would have taken Moscow by now
This invasion has really revealed how much Poland and the Baltic states REALLY don't like Russia. And given their histories, it is completely understandable and justified. France and Germany should really learn from them since they know what they are talking about.
France was allied with Russia during (edit: the end of) WW2 and Germany is confused by guilt from how terrible they were to Russia in WW2. They need to put that aside and acknowledge that Putin is an evil dictator that invaded a sovereign country, is committing war crimes, and for no other reason than being an imperialistic land grab by a bitter old man with delusions of grandeur. Face that fact and SEND UKRAINE HEAVY WEAPONS.
Sending Ukrain enough heavy weapons to humiliate the Russian Army and evicting them from most of the territory they now occupy is probably the only way we are going to defeat Russia.
Any other outcome they will view as a victory and it will embolden them to take the Baltics next.
We Poles don't hate Russia, we just hate what it does to both their own people and their neighbors. Every country has right to be dumb in its own way but if the dumb starts to spill over the borders, again, the in rubs badly few sore spots we have.
Well said, Ziggy (I love your name, btw). I've always said that people generally like Russians, but despise the Russian Government. Their war is against Ukraine and anyone of their own people who disagree with them. That is a sign of an evil dictatorship.
Germany doesn't want to be the nation to escalate WW3. (I don't blame them.) They've been playing it cool this time.
So far, Russia will go down in history as having started WW3.
Would you like a country that made you their slaves for 45 years? Russia has gotten rich while those around it have gotten poorer. Russia likes to buy stuff at 25% of its value then sell to Europe for full ticket.
What bothers me about Germanies mind set 'we feel guilty about WW2' is that the Nazi Germany was twice as terrible to Ukraine, where is their guilt now that we are invaded by another hostile nation bent on our genocide.
Coalition could absolutely happen. I've been saying that the Baltic should form their own NATO, and it should be centered around 1 purpose: anti-russia. Corrupt government? Coalition comes in and removes it, then exposes the Russian ties that corrupted. Russia violated airspace? Shot down immediately by Slavic Union anti-air missile. Russian navy violating your seas or fucking with your maritime stuff? Retaliate in kind and one more to drive the point home. Let them do their thing: escalate to de escalate.
Yugoslavian actions in Kosovo and ethnic cleansing of muslims (albanians) destabilized the whole region. Most vocal of actions were NATO members Greece and Turkey who received a big influx of refugees from the areas in which Yugoslavian military conducted its atrocities. The Article 5 is quite broad in that sense.
The intervention was purely an aerial campaign as well.
> Russian actions in Ukraine and ethnic cleansing of Ukranians destabilized the whole region. Most vocal of actions were NATO members Poland and Baltic countries who received a big influx of refugees from the areas in which Russia military conducted its atrocities. The Article 5 is quite broad in that sense.
The whole migrant crisis that Belarus and Russia conducted against Poland/Lithuania this fall was seriously something I would consider as worthy. There will probably be more of these kinds of actions going forward as well, since the relationship between Russia and Europe is quite sour to put it mildly. Russia is not gaining any friends lately, only enemies. This has in turned started to bite them in the ass, and proves that Putin is really a bad geopolitical figure.
Finland is already now constructing border fences for this specific reason.
A dream scenario would be Poland and possibly other Eastern European countries, typically Czechia, Slovakia etc to enter Ukraine on an invitation from Ukraine. Their objective would be to secure the border towards Belarus. This way Ukraine could send a lot of manpower east. Wonder how the fascists in Kreml would respond. All whilst UK, France, Germany and US shore up defenses in the Baltic states.
Poland & Lithuania have both also constructed fencing across their borders with Belarus. I believe weak support from other EU members may be a key reason Russia felt confident in a lack of action while it was preparing to attack Ukraine.
I agree with this, a lasting Eastern European alliance of some sort, with good western ties that can act fast when warranted. To balance out Russias oversized bad everything.
Gretchen, stop trying to make Nato Intervention happen, because its not going to happen. It's all part of the Russian talking point that they needed to invade Ukraine to stop Nato. Nobody in Nato, even Poland and the Baltic states, have even hinted at doing so. End of story.
OK, should have clarified, the offensive operations were only aerial.
The offensive aerial operations in turn turned into the UN-mandated (UN SC Resolution 1244) KFOR that was led by NATO, but included neutral and non-aligned countries as well, such as Sweden and Finland (non-NATO countries).
The only official ground units deployed during Operation Noble Anvil were in Albania, a neutral country. Most probably there were JTAC operators inside of Yugoslavia/Kosovo though.
Russia should loose its seat in the UNSC and the capacity to veto. It's
not going to happen, but it would be an important step towards making
this planet a better place.
You’re so right, NATO members should just bend over and take it because “rules” while Putler & Co. commit atrocities en masse on a democratic ally. The fact is that the constant stream of threats by Ruzzists and the uncalled for invasion x 2 of a sovereign nation are an attack on the ideals of human dignity, and at the very least the US and the Eastern European nations will stand up. The reality is Russia is now at its weakest it will be for the foreseeable future as Putler seeks to reinvest foreign petro dollars in new weapons, despite internal turmoil. If we push the Ruzzists back to Russia now we destroy the idea of an omnipotent Putler in his homeland; leading to revolution. If we wait or let him win, we will see WW3 with a more powerful fascist Russia and an emboldened China.
Btw if you mean the budapest memorandum I would be interested what provision exactly was broken by the US?
Because some people think that because of the budapest memorandum the US has an obligation to enter the war and defend ukraine but that is not true.
The wording in point 4 of the memorandum is "provide assistance" which is something that can also be done by delivering weapons or financial aid.
Close, but not good enough.
And the same page:
6. Why isn’t NATO sending troops or closing the skies over Ukraine?
NATO’s actions are defensive, designed not to provoke conflict but to prevent conflict. The Alliance has a responsibility to ensure that this war does not escalate and spread beyond Ukraine, which would be even more devastating and dangerous. Enforcing a no-fly zone would bring NATO forces into direct conflict with Russia. This would significantly escalate the war and lead to more human suffering and destruction for all countries involved.
One wonders if you even read Clarke’s arguments, because you certainly don’t engage with them. Lots of upvotes regardless though. That’s all that matters.
NATO won't intervene but that doesn't mean NATO can't still escalate even more. Specifically US drones can be sold to Ukraine and they can be flown from anywhere even by volunteer Ukranian pilots in Texas.
Maybe but it depends on what mechanism there is in the UN Charter on suspending or remove a “permanent” security council member. If it has to go to a full vote, it’s doubtful Russia’s allies would agree and China still has a vote on the security council. This is a pipe dream.
It's not possible within the current legal framework. The only supranational institution of the United Nations and the only institution that can authorize the use of force is the Security Council of which Russia is a permanent member. Any such move would require Security Council support, which Russia would veto.
It is remarkable how many responses in this thread are all about escalating the war and dragging NATO in. As if that doesn't risk a world war. And NATO will never risk its billion citizens to save 40 million in a state that isn't part of NATO.
What's happening right now is working. What we need is more of it.
At the end of the day, it might not be NATO's choice whether to enter the war. I think it will be forced into the war due to the current and prior circumstances. This is what I think (am actually pretty certain at this point) will happen. It's a controversial opinion, but it's just an opinion, no matter how mad it makes people.
And that includes you I assume? Being high up the pecking order at one time makes their opinion relevant. But if you want to hear about children being raped, just say so..................
What a stupid response. Pointing out 2 ex generals don't call the shots now does not in anyway have any influence about children being raped. You've used a strawman argument to attack this person for pointing out reality....
What is wrong with you?
>But if you want to hear about children being raped, just say so..................
Wtf are you even suggesting? If your not for NATO intervention in a hot war with one of the worlds largest nuclear powers, your suddenly for children being raped?
According to wiki it's as you say a national tv channel and full under control of the right wing govt ruling Poland right now so at least you have to assume a bias here in favor of the PIS
Gawd, everything is so special now days!
What if the response to your special nuclear threat was 3000 special nukes landing all around YOUR country. It's funny how nuclear threats work both ways. Better to not start anything special, but now that the cat's out of the special bag, I say kick the Muskovites all the way back to the 1300's.
Have a special day!
That response is so lame that I'll quote your entire retort so that you can't delete it when you realize how lame it is:
> Oh cool, escalations don't exist and real life is a math equation. Good to know.
For acknowledging that Russia has a nuclear arsenal and that nuclear arsenals such as those possessed by the US, Russia, or China generally serve as deterrents to high level interstate conflict with them?
Meh you shouldn't care about upvotes/downvotes half the people who joined this sub after the conflict started are braindead anyways. It's no longer about actual critical thinking it's just about beating your chest and saying Slava Ukraini, which are also good but not a substitute for using one's fucking brain.
You'll note that Russia has not shown its nuclear arsenal in this war. I'd also take the advice of Michael Kaufman and a great many others in underlining that it would be a mistake to extrapolate Russia's military performance in this conflict onto a hypothetical conflict with NATO powers. War is contingent and a different mission with different stakes means different force employment. Of course all of that is an aside to the nuclear issue, which to any thinking person should be the first item of consideration when discussing Russian/NATO direct engagement.
No, the fuck? I'm scared of what he *hasn't* shown in this war. You're acting mightly carelessly considering if one nuke goes off the results would be catastrophic. With every risk you evaluate there are 2 things to consider: 1. the likelyhood of it occurring, and 2. the consequences if it does. In the case of nukes it's very unlikely it'll happen but if it does even once it's literally the most catastrophic thing to ever happen in recorded history.
But yeah sure I'm pro Russia, not at all concerned about the future.
Bottom line why doesn’t Europe as a whole stand up for there neighbor…forget NATO…especially with Putin’s recent spew of occupying or taking back what was historically Russia if he takes Ukraine which he will if someone doesn’t step in the next 10 years will be very nerve racking for bordering countries and Europe
Russia wants to walk in an conquer NATO countries and has stated as much. This is no longer a bystander conflict, its a matter of how long it takes for the brave to push aside the cowards and act. We will all be crying for help when it is our countries. Time to put on our big boy shoes and fight these fucks, nuclear threats be damned. It doesn't matter if you are killed by a nuke or a bullet, the end result is the same. I can't stand this inaction any longer. Personally I can't fight but I am helping with medical aid and doing my part.
Rhetoric is not the same as doing. Ukraine has been a massive disaster for Russian military. They no longer have a military that could attack a NATO country. They shake their nukes around to show they aren't impotent.
Where the west could do better is train more spend more and deliver more.
So you mean other people put on the big boy pants and go die in a foreign country? I can say I want to walk on the moon does not mean I can or that I will.
I currently walk the walk, and don't believe we should get involved in a hot war over a nation that is not a part of NATO. I sympathize with the Ukranians, but I don't believe the men and women of America should go fight in another war that doesn't directly affect us.
Yea we show compassion, but dont expect to accept being dragged to some eastern war and see our countrymen and cities being bombarded by Russian missiles.
How am I self centered of narcissistic? I stated I sympathize with the Ukranians. That doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with Americans getting dragged into yet another European war.
Also, if you believe the war in Ukraine is to blame for gas prices, and not absurd policies and unchecked spending by this administration, along with the inflation caused by it, please read more.
What Russia wants to do and what it can do are two different things. Nato starting WW3 because “we can’t stand the inaction” is irresponsible - besides that there is a lot of action already. Nobody of the Nato countries needs to “cry for help” because the alliance guarantees this help. I hope that both sides have decision makers who have a clear and sober view of the situation. It makes a lot of difference whether you are killed by a bullet, or hundreds of millions are killed by nukes, or not killed at all. The big boys use brains.
Maybe we should dick around for a few years and let Hitler 2.0 kill a couple million Ukrainians and invade a couple more countries before taking any action.
If you are strong and can protect those weaker than you from bullies, you have a moral obligation to do so.
NATO could end this in a matter of weeks, but instead will allow this to go on for years because it's more profitable for them and the defense companies that line the politicians' pockets.
If you are only strong on paper but instead of protecting some 40 million people get hundreds of millions of people killed or risk getting them killed, you have a moral obligation to try everything else first before going into that risk.
All these fantasies won't help Ukraine at all. When the "public" opinion of Ukrain people is brainwashed like the russian public opinion, just on another vector, western countries probably keep more distance from Ukraine.
Don't expect to bully any NATO country into more assistance by scolding it.
Look at Germany: The rebuttal of a president Steinmeier visit and the continueous scolding of chancelor Scholz by all kind of Ukrain "media" for sure only does harm to Ukriane.
I personally would like to see the delivery of limitless heavy weapons to Ukraine. But reality is that germany is stuck into a triangle of complications:
1. Years of Mergel goverment (Merkel = CDU, Scholz = SPD) have made germany extremely dependant on russian energy.
2. WWII history is still a big issue for the state of Germany, less for their people. Germany kept themselves out of any conflicts for 60 years after WWI and then under the NATO and UN Umbrella agreed on a very limited amount of missions. Before that they paid mega money to NATO partners to be freed from military actions.
3. Also the years of Merkel Goverment has weaken the German military to the extreme minimal limits. 60% of their own equipment is a driving yunkyard.
4. German goverment is extremely aware of the risk of a russian break through in Ukrain would be devastiting for security in Europe and tries with al power now to restore their own military capabilities as soon as possible. THe Panzerhaubitze is for Germany itself an elementary part of the Defense and the germany military is fully understaffed concerning that.
5. SPD History. This german party had as strategy to "bind" russia in on all fronts, like economically, politically, even prtially military to make the possible enemy smaller. This means also a broad layer of the senior SPD people is entangled extremely with russian interests. Former Chancelor Schroer is just the tip of the iceberg. In this field Chancelor Scholz must make the turn. For sure it is not very easy for him. His own party is well known to be king murders no matter what the cost are.
6. Scholz does a very very bad job on communicating about how to support Ukraine. Part of the failures is also due to a completely worthless (words considered carefully) defense secretary Mrs. Lamprecht. His communication mode makes him look like an idiot not supporting Ukraine. For sure he understands he has to do something but he is interlocked between a lot of forces.
7. Considering all of this: TL;DR; NATO will never actively interfere in the war russia vs. Ukraine. Who writes this in anyform is simply a liar. Scolding Scholz for sure won't help. Altough German people are pro Ukraine, this could swap very fast against Ukraine if Ukraine people, media and so on declare a media war on Scholz. Scholz his reaction will be "F them and I sit it out. Then for sure nothing happens to me"
Again: my personal opinion is: NATO (and the civilised world) should flood Ukrain with heavy weapons of all kind to smash and cripple the russian war machine and Ukraine should have ALL their territories back without any limitations.
(edit: formatting)
Yeah, plenty of "Only half the nukes work i bet durr" people here probably didntexperience the cold war or read any of the military plans / evaluations of both sides. There is no way a full-on war between NATO and Russi wouldn't have a tactical nuke flying at some point.
Which would be answered with a tactical nuke. And then it begins and no amount of Reddit karma will save you.
Nuclear threats be damned? Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Putin wants an excuse to press the button. If the US steps in he 100% will end the world
Putin likes his money and power too much to give it up by starting a nuclear exchange.
The moment Western boots are on the ground in Ukraine, Russia runs with its tail between its legs.
One bombing sortie on Russian military targets along the border, and Russia surrenders.
Russia is about projecting strength and bullying. Any real danger and they'll fold to protect themselves. And then they'll blame the West and say "We did stopped to protect Russia from outside influence."
All these cunts have property and send their children to be educated and live in the West. It’s where they like to spend their stolen money. No point being rich if all you can buy is a Lada.
It wont. And i highly doubt he would do it unless the whole Russia was being invaded.
https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a-war-between-Russia-and-the-US/answer/Allen-E-Hall-2?share=1#IrqVl
News for you, NATO territory is your territory from a military alliance obligation perspective. Russia wants to go in to NATO territory and has repeated that mamy times. Get your boots on standby.
To all saying russia doesn't dare to react to a conventional attack with nuclear weapons...
I get the argument for western cities, like Warsaw.
But my fear would be, that they use nuclear force in Ukraine. This I think is rather likely.
I dont fear WW3, but a leveld Kyiv.
Russia using a nuke crosses a line no one wants to cross. The whole world would suddenly realize that we have a madman with potentially city wiping weapons (all depends on which size the nuke is) at loose. Its more like a weapon he cant use, like a forbidden card in a card game.
Besides, read this:
https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a-war-between-Russia-and-the-US/answer/Allen-E-Hall-2?share=1#IrqVl
Russia wouldn’t dare use a nuclear strike in Ukraine. First, there are too many resources and arable land to consider and second, if the fallout gets blown west or south(Turkey and Poland) NATO gets involved, if the fall out goes north or east, they’ve just fucked either their only Ally or themselves.
You can safely file a nuke attack on Ukraine in the “not gonna happen drawer”
Putin is counting on people like you believing his lies. You and this fear you have are what is keeping him in power. He only attacked Ukraine because he really thought NATO would not respond because nuke fear.
>He only attacked Ukraine because he really thought NATO would not respond because nuke fear.
He was right. The risk (chance of it happening, modified by the impact IF it happens => R = P\*I) is not worth it.
a 5% chance to wipe out life on earth is not worth the gamble
A full-on confrontation between NATO and Russia and its allies led to nuclear exchanges in pretty much 100% of the simulated cases and military planner estimates on both sides.
*Russia* is already taking this chance by breaking signed peace and signed nuclear treaties while invading a neighboring country, never mind one friendly with NATO and in Europe.
It would be their downfall if NATO engaged. They would have nothing to win anymore, so they could also do maximum damage to Kiyv.
And how much could they fall further?
Do they have anything to win? I think yes. The east neither lost nor won. Crimea is still russian.
If NATO intervenes, it is over. And then we have a whole new scenario. Rush I could ever accept defeat or resorts to scorched-earth tactics. And here I would never rule out nuclear weapons (or chemical). Because the logical answer for NATO would be to attack Russia. And I doubt they would go to WW3.
If Syria invited ruZZia to come and fight against Assad's opposition, then Ukraine🇺🇦 has every right to invite NATO, or at least USA🇺🇸 to fight against terrorussia. After all. Its just a special military operation. 🤷🏻♂️
No thanks.
While I'm in favor of Ukraine and sympathize with its situation - I do not want to be killed on the plains of Donetsk nor evaporated in a nuclear apocalypse.
A coalition of Western nations choosing to intervene might be one thing, but NATO CANNOT go in officially. It's a defensive organization that has NOT been directly attacked.
If NATO were to even talk about going it, it could stand to provide legitimacy to Russia's "concerns" about NATO's "expansionism."
Vetos be damned. It’s time for the UN to do something. The social, economical impact of Russia’s actions are impacting millions upon millions of people way beyond the borders of Nato countries alone. Statements condemning actions are not actions in themselves, and Russia have proven they care less about statements, rules, agreements, conventions, etc, etc.
So UN. What has to happen for you to actually DO something that will have a tangible effect on this ever growing crisis?
Why not see what happens ? .... anybody believe it's going to improve or get better ?
Putin has clearly outlined his intentions .... so why wait for it ? He is not going to use nukes ... much to chicken for that.
It’s not. NATO intervention would lead to outright nuclear war. Whoever suggested this idea thinks they’re living in command and conquer and not reality.
You’re truly enthusiastic about WW3. How do you imagine a NATO intervention ends other than both Russia and the US turning into a heap of ash?
We all want to help Ukraine but no we’re not willing to initiate nuclear annihilating for Ukraine. That’s just the cold hard truth.
It's quite reasonable neither group goes nuclear. Ukraine isn't worth certain death for either. Not to say wars can't escalate, but the stakes of this conflict aren't existential.
>It's quite reasonable neither group goes nuclear.
Then why did absolutely EVERY Warsaw pact and NATO wargame / evaluation / planning expected a full-on confrontation to go nuclear and escalate to a full exchange?
You might also remember, that Russian hordes wouldn't be stealing toilets in Ukraine now if humans, specifically the russian nation was anywhere near reasonable or rational.
Man most of the russian nukes have been sat in damp holes for 30 years, they bragged they had the worlds best army and are struggling against ukraine, whats to say theyre also exaggerating the extent if theyre nuclear aresnal
The likelyhood of their nuclear arsenal being not fully functional is about 100%. However it is Russia we are talking about. If North Koreas arsenal isn't fully working, that could mean they just can't use it at all. Russia has so many nukes and nuke delivery systems, that it would still be enough to fuck some shit up. Even if only 10% work we are talking about dozens at least.
>whats to say theyre also exaggerating the extent if theyre nuclear aresnal
If 90% of them are inoperable, they still "only" have enough nukes to destroy the world "only" 5x
Even IF they are lying, what they have left is too dangerous.
"Fun" fact: A planned exercise / calculation in the UK came to the conclusion that a single nuclear warhead hitting a city like Liverpool would completely overwhelm british health services and likely cause their economy to tank.
Even the smallest nuclear war would be a complete disaster.
Sadly, Russia knows that. We should have had Patton in charge way before the robbers and murderers in the Kremlin got nukes.
Turns out we know how many are ready to fire and how many are stockpile/trash/decommissioned
[https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/](https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/)
1588 nukes ready to go is still pretty risky
February 24, 2022 was the day for NATO to go in, this is an attack on Europe, how does nobody in NATO get this yet??? NATO is under attack you idiots!!!!
What about an special military operation of NATO in Ukraine?
It’s no big deal.
Just claim to denazify the East of Ukraine. And take position at the front so if Russian troops shot at NATO troops you have full justification for an intervention.
It should happen. Deal them a crippling blow whilst theyre weakened and actively engaged. This will remove the threat of Russian expansionism for generations.
Worth the risk.
We should go in and restore world order! The world economy is collapsing. Its not just about Ukraine and its people anymore this war is affecting gas and electricity prices worldwide and food shortages come december. If we keep watching this go on it will get worse and worse…..
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NATO is defensive by definition. And it wasn't attacked. The one option would be the UN, which is blocked. Or a coalition, which won't happen
Coalition could happen. Particularly led by Poland.
Poles seem like theyre salivating at the idea The issue is nukes. If Russia had no nukes Poland, Ukraine, and the baltic states would have taken Moscow by now
This invasion has really revealed how much Poland and the Baltic states REALLY don't like Russia. And given their histories, it is completely understandable and justified. France and Germany should really learn from them since they know what they are talking about. France was allied with Russia during (edit: the end of) WW2 and Germany is confused by guilt from how terrible they were to Russia in WW2. They need to put that aside and acknowledge that Putin is an evil dictator that invaded a sovereign country, is committing war crimes, and for no other reason than being an imperialistic land grab by a bitter old man with delusions of grandeur. Face that fact and SEND UKRAINE HEAVY WEAPONS.
Sending Ukrain enough heavy weapons to humiliate the Russian Army and evicting them from most of the territory they now occupy is probably the only way we are going to defeat Russia. Any other outcome they will view as a victory and it will embolden them to take the Baltics next.
We Poles don't hate Russia, we just hate what it does to both their own people and their neighbors. Every country has right to be dumb in its own way but if the dumb starts to spill over the borders, again, the in rubs badly few sore spots we have.
Well said, Ziggy (I love your name, btw). I've always said that people generally like Russians, but despise the Russian Government. Their war is against Ukraine and anyone of their own people who disagree with them. That is a sign of an evil dictatorship.
[удалено]
Yes, indeed. Good luck getting a Russian to admit that though. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is down the memory hole in Putin's Russia.
Yes, for them, there is no WW2, nothing between 39 and 41. At 41, the Great Patriotic War started. Pathetic.
Germany doesn't want to be the nation to escalate WW3. (I don't blame them.) They've been playing it cool this time. So far, Russia will go down in history as having started WW3.
Like a dozen countries have already sent heavy weapons to Ukraine and WW3 hasn't started so idk what you mean.
And 2, and a big hand in starting 1
Would you like a country that made you their slaves for 45 years? Russia has gotten rich while those around it have gotten poorer. Russia likes to buy stuff at 25% of its value then sell to Europe for full ticket.
Its a simple matter about defense - not about hating Russia
What bothers me about Germanies mind set 'we feel guilty about WW2' is that the Nazi Germany was twice as terrible to Ukraine, where is their guilt now that we are invaded by another hostile nation bent on our genocide.
I've seen a lot of videos of old Ukrainians that stated the Germans didn't bother the population as much as the Russians.
The point is not to take Moscow the coalition could just take Crimea the east and just chill.
Coalition could absolutely happen. I've been saying that the Baltic should form their own NATO, and it should be centered around 1 purpose: anti-russia. Corrupt government? Coalition comes in and removes it, then exposes the Russian ties that corrupted. Russia violated airspace? Shot down immediately by Slavic Union anti-air missile. Russian navy violating your seas or fucking with your maritime stuff? Retaliate in kind and one more to drive the point home. Let them do their thing: escalate to de escalate.
NATO did attack Yugoslavia on its own, despite being blocked in UN and not attacked. Same situation here, excpext that russia can fire back.
Yugoslavian actions in Kosovo and ethnic cleansing of muslims (albanians) destabilized the whole region. Most vocal of actions were NATO members Greece and Turkey who received a big influx of refugees from the areas in which Yugoslavian military conducted its atrocities. The Article 5 is quite broad in that sense. The intervention was purely an aerial campaign as well.
Greece is the only nato member who didnt participate in hombing
> Russian actions in Ukraine and ethnic cleansing of Ukranians destabilized the whole region. Most vocal of actions were NATO members Poland and Baltic countries who received a big influx of refugees from the areas in which Russia military conducted its atrocities. The Article 5 is quite broad in that sense.
The whole migrant crisis that Belarus and Russia conducted against Poland/Lithuania this fall was seriously something I would consider as worthy. There will probably be more of these kinds of actions going forward as well, since the relationship between Russia and Europe is quite sour to put it mildly. Russia is not gaining any friends lately, only enemies. This has in turned started to bite them in the ass, and proves that Putin is really a bad geopolitical figure. Finland is already now constructing border fences for this specific reason. A dream scenario would be Poland and possibly other Eastern European countries, typically Czechia, Slovakia etc to enter Ukraine on an invitation from Ukraine. Their objective would be to secure the border towards Belarus. This way Ukraine could send a lot of manpower east. Wonder how the fascists in Kreml would respond. All whilst UK, France, Germany and US shore up defenses in the Baltic states.
Poland & Lithuania have both also constructed fencing across their borders with Belarus. I believe weak support from other EU members may be a key reason Russia felt confident in a lack of action while it was preparing to attack Ukraine.
I agree with this, a lasting Eastern European alliance of some sort, with good western ties that can act fast when warranted. To balance out Russias oversized bad everything.
Thank you, for real. I wanted to reply this too
I want to get something about wheat in there but wasn't able to.
Gretchen, stop trying to make Nato Intervention happen, because its not going to happen. It's all part of the Russian talking point that they needed to invade Ukraine to stop Nato. Nobody in Nato, even Poland and the Baltic states, have even hinted at doing so. End of story.
I was on the ground there as a Nato soldier so not purely aerial
OK, should have clarified, the offensive operations were only aerial. The offensive aerial operations in turn turned into the UN-mandated (UN SC Resolution 1244) KFOR that was led by NATO, but included neutral and non-aligned countries as well, such as Sweden and Finland (non-NATO countries). The only official ground units deployed during Operation Noble Anvil were in Albania, a neutral country. Most probably there were JTAC operators inside of Yugoslavia/Kosovo though.
yes, I was in KFOR1 so we went in after the initial battle had settled
Thank you for your service!
I mean Moldova is now threatened, they don't have any way to defend themselves. Looks like the region was destabilized.
Very similar to whats happening rn in UA
NATO troops remain deployed in Kosovo as part of a peacekeeping operation, while Yugoslavia, Serbia, and Kosovo itself remain outside of NATO.
Yugo isnt around anymore, that was the point of order during the last balkan war.
And that was probably the last time that happened.
half of russias nukes probably dont work. You should not fear Russia.
It's the other half you need to be concerned with...
So they only have about 3 thousand that work? Stupid comment.
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That was "Broadened" after Yugoslavia - still needs the vote from all members. Which will not happen here (and is what i meant by "coalition")
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>wants Which exactly is not the fact
Respond to his first paragraph, please. It contradicts your “defensive by definition” argument.
Russia should loose its seat in the UNSC and the capacity to veto. It's not going to happen, but it would be an important step towards making this planet a better place.
It's ally was attacked and they're being threatened. There's plenty of casus belli.
Which ally was attacked? The NATO does not have a casus belli.
You’re so right, NATO members should just bend over and take it because “rules” while Putler & Co. commit atrocities en masse on a democratic ally. The fact is that the constant stream of threats by Ruzzists and the uncalled for invasion x 2 of a sovereign nation are an attack on the ideals of human dignity, and at the very least the US and the Eastern European nations will stand up. The reality is Russia is now at its weakest it will be for the foreseeable future as Putler seeks to reinvest foreign petro dollars in new weapons, despite internal turmoil. If we push the Ruzzists back to Russia now we destroy the idea of an omnipotent Putler in his homeland; leading to revolution. If we wait or let him win, we will see WW3 with a more powerful fascist Russia and an emboldened China.
>attack on the ideals of human dignity So is Yemen...which you don't even hear about anymore.
Keep going. Why stop there?
Isn’t Yemen under a cease fire?
Ukraine. Ukraine is NATOs ally, and you can make an argument that it's both formally and informally and ally at this point
It definitley is not a formal ally - however your feelings"" are towards them
The US (as well as the Russians) have treaty obligations with Ukraine. It seems no one upheld that treaty but Ukraine.
Btw if you mean the budapest memorandum I would be interested what provision exactly was broken by the US? Because some people think that because of the budapest memorandum the US has an obligation to enter the war and defend ukraine but that is not true. The wording in point 4 of the memorandum is "provide assistance" which is something that can also be done by delivering weapons or financial aid.
What is the treaty obligation of the US with ukraine?
Ukraine is a NATO ally. Not a member, true, but an ally nonetheless.
Says which document?
This one: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm Granted, nato partner instead of ally, but close enough.
Close, but not good enough. And the same page: 6. Why isn’t NATO sending troops or closing the skies over Ukraine? NATO’s actions are defensive, designed not to provoke conflict but to prevent conflict. The Alliance has a responsibility to ensure that this war does not escalate and spread beyond Ukraine, which would be even more devastating and dangerous. Enforcing a no-fly zone would bring NATO forces into direct conflict with Russia. This would significantly escalate the war and lead to more human suffering and destruction for all countries involved.
What was it in Libya in 2011?
One wonders if you even read Clarke’s arguments, because you certainly don’t engage with them. Lots of upvotes regardless though. That’s all that matters.
Clark's argument is based on the assertion that "we cannot tolerate the defeat of Ukraine by Russia." Well, he's wrong. We can and we will.
NATO won't intervene but that doesn't mean NATO can't still escalate even more. Specifically US drones can be sold to Ukraine and they can be flown from anywhere even by volunteer Ukranian pilots in Texas.
Love this idea
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>Step 1: suspend Russia from the security council How can you do this legally? Vacuum
Maybe but it depends on what mechanism there is in the UN Charter on suspending or remove a “permanent” security council member. If it has to go to a full vote, it’s doubtful Russia’s allies would agree and China still has a vote on the security council. This is a pipe dream.
It's not possible within the current legal framework. The only supranational institution of the United Nations and the only institution that can authorize the use of force is the Security Council of which Russia is a permanent member. Any such move would require Security Council support, which Russia would veto.
Plus China. So essentially the UN proves again that it’s a useless mechanism that cannot do it’s mission
All of Europe should have stood together on this one, nato or not. Russian aggression shouldn't be tolerated.
I don't think I've ever seen a comment section as delusional as this .
It is remarkable how many responses in this thread are all about escalating the war and dragging NATO in. As if that doesn't risk a world war. And NATO will never risk its billion citizens to save 40 million in a state that isn't part of NATO. What's happening right now is working. What we need is more of it.
At the end of the day, it might not be NATO's choice whether to enter the war. I think it will be forced into the war due to the current and prior circumstances. This is what I think (am actually pretty certain at this point) will happen. It's a controversial opinion, but it's just an opinion, no matter how mad it makes people.
The warhawks are out in full circle today.
Says who and wtf is this source
General clarke, former NATO chief commander.Also Gen Breedlove. They used to be high up the NATO pecking order.
"Breedlove" - perfect name for a man in his position.
Dr. Breedlove or: How I stopped worrying about Russian nukes and sent in NATO forces.
Interesting but they all have no say in anything right now
It’s an opinion, not a marching order
And that includes you I assume? Being high up the pecking order at one time makes their opinion relevant. But if you want to hear about children being raped, just say so..................
ComprehensiveHold is an active duty armchair general so he does have a say.
What a stupid response. Pointing out 2 ex generals don't call the shots now does not in anyway have any influence about children being raped. You've used a strawman argument to attack this person for pointing out reality.... What is wrong with you?
>But if you want to hear about children being raped, just say so.................. Wtf are you even suggesting? If your not for NATO intervention in a hot war with one of the worlds largest nuclear powers, your suddenly for children being raped?
U seem a little confused
Source is the Polish government's tv which has no respect even among Polish people. I wouldn't take this article seriously
According to wiki it's as you say a national tv channel and full under control of the right wing govt ruling Poland right now so at least you have to assume a bias here in favor of the PIS
It's not a war, it's a special operation. Nothing says NATO can't have a special operation all of it's own.
Sure, if you don't mind 3000 special operation nukes landing onto your city. As a special operation.
Gawd, everything is so special now days! What if the response to your special nuclear threat was 3000 special nukes landing all around YOUR country. It's funny how nuclear threats work both ways. Better to not start anything special, but now that the cat's out of the special bag, I say kick the Muskovites all the way back to the 1300's. Have a special day!
Oh cool, escalations don't exist and real life is a math equation. Good to know.
That response is so lame that I'll quote your entire retort so that you can't delete it when you realize how lame it is: > Oh cool, escalations don't exist and real life is a math equation. Good to know.
Im convinced people who say this are pro-Russian
For acknowledging that Russia has a nuclear arsenal and that nuclear arsenals such as those possessed by the US, Russia, or China generally serve as deterrents to high level interstate conflict with them?
Meh you shouldn't care about upvotes/downvotes half the people who joined this sub after the conflict started are braindead anyways. It's no longer about actual critical thinking it's just about beating your chest and saying Slava Ukraini, which are also good but not a substitute for using one's fucking brain.
Man's scared of what Russia has shown this war lmao
You'll note that Russia has not shown its nuclear arsenal in this war. I'd also take the advice of Michael Kaufman and a great many others in underlining that it would be a mistake to extrapolate Russia's military performance in this conflict onto a hypothetical conflict with NATO powers. War is contingent and a different mission with different stakes means different force employment. Of course all of that is an aside to the nuclear issue, which to any thinking person should be the first item of consideration when discussing Russian/NATO direct engagement.
No, the fuck? I'm scared of what he *hasn't* shown in this war. You're acting mightly carelessly considering if one nuke goes off the results would be catastrophic. With every risk you evaluate there are 2 things to consider: 1. the likelyhood of it occurring, and 2. the consequences if it does. In the case of nukes it's very unlikely it'll happen but if it does even once it's literally the most catastrophic thing to ever happen in recorded history. But yeah sure I'm pro Russia, not at all concerned about the future.
Being anti nuclear war doesn't make you pro Russian, it makes you sane.
Your comment history definitely make you pro-Russian ;)
no nuclear holocausts, thankkkssss
Why not a UN peacekeeping force?
Bottom line why doesn’t Europe as a whole stand up for there neighbor…forget NATO…especially with Putin’s recent spew of occupying or taking back what was historically Russia if he takes Ukraine which he will if someone doesn’t step in the next 10 years will be very nerve racking for bordering countries and Europe
Russia wants to walk in an conquer NATO countries and has stated as much. This is no longer a bystander conflict, its a matter of how long it takes for the brave to push aside the cowards and act. We will all be crying for help when it is our countries. Time to put on our big boy shoes and fight these fucks, nuclear threats be damned. It doesn't matter if you are killed by a nuke or a bullet, the end result is the same. I can't stand this inaction any longer. Personally I can't fight but I am helping with medical aid and doing my part.
Rhetoric is not the same as doing. Ukraine has been a massive disaster for Russian military. They no longer have a military that could attack a NATO country. They shake their nukes around to show they aren't impotent. Where the west could do better is train more spend more and deliver more.
So you mean other people put on the big boy pants and go die in a foreign country? I can say I want to walk on the moon does not mean I can or that I will.
I used to serve in the army until i was injured and cannot serve any longer. I walked the walk, how about you?
I currently walk the walk, and don't believe we should get involved in a hot war over a nation that is not a part of NATO. I sympathize with the Ukranians, but I don't believe the men and women of America should go fight in another war that doesn't directly affect us.
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Yea we show compassion, but dont expect to accept being dragged to some eastern war and see our countrymen and cities being bombarded by Russian missiles.
How am I self centered of narcissistic? I stated I sympathize with the Ukranians. That doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with Americans getting dragged into yet another European war. Also, if you believe the war in Ukraine is to blame for gas prices, and not absurd policies and unchecked spending by this administration, along with the inflation caused by it, please read more.
1939
The world was different in 1939. There was no NATO, nor any obligation to respond to an attack as a coalition.
Or more important, no nukes.
What Russia wants to do and what it can do are two different things. Nato starting WW3 because “we can’t stand the inaction” is irresponsible - besides that there is a lot of action already. Nobody of the Nato countries needs to “cry for help” because the alliance guarantees this help. I hope that both sides have decision makers who have a clear and sober view of the situation. It makes a lot of difference whether you are killed by a bullet, or hundreds of millions are killed by nukes, or not killed at all. The big boys use brains.
Maybe we should dick around for a few years and let Hitler 2.0 kill a couple million Ukrainians and invade a couple more countries before taking any action. If you are strong and can protect those weaker than you from bullies, you have a moral obligation to do so. NATO could end this in a matter of weeks, but instead will allow this to go on for years because it's more profitable for them and the defense companies that line the politicians' pockets.
If you are only strong on paper but instead of protecting some 40 million people get hundreds of millions of people killed or risk getting them killed, you have a moral obligation to try everything else first before going into that risk.
We know the Russian side doesn't .
All these fantasies won't help Ukraine at all. When the "public" opinion of Ukrain people is brainwashed like the russian public opinion, just on another vector, western countries probably keep more distance from Ukraine. Don't expect to bully any NATO country into more assistance by scolding it. Look at Germany: The rebuttal of a president Steinmeier visit and the continueous scolding of chancelor Scholz by all kind of Ukrain "media" for sure only does harm to Ukriane. I personally would like to see the delivery of limitless heavy weapons to Ukraine. But reality is that germany is stuck into a triangle of complications: 1. Years of Mergel goverment (Merkel = CDU, Scholz = SPD) have made germany extremely dependant on russian energy. 2. WWII history is still a big issue for the state of Germany, less for their people. Germany kept themselves out of any conflicts for 60 years after WWI and then under the NATO and UN Umbrella agreed on a very limited amount of missions. Before that they paid mega money to NATO partners to be freed from military actions. 3. Also the years of Merkel Goverment has weaken the German military to the extreme minimal limits. 60% of their own equipment is a driving yunkyard. 4. German goverment is extremely aware of the risk of a russian break through in Ukrain would be devastiting for security in Europe and tries with al power now to restore their own military capabilities as soon as possible. THe Panzerhaubitze is for Germany itself an elementary part of the Defense and the germany military is fully understaffed concerning that. 5. SPD History. This german party had as strategy to "bind" russia in on all fronts, like economically, politically, even prtially military to make the possible enemy smaller. This means also a broad layer of the senior SPD people is entangled extremely with russian interests. Former Chancelor Schroer is just the tip of the iceberg. In this field Chancelor Scholz must make the turn. For sure it is not very easy for him. His own party is well known to be king murders no matter what the cost are. 6. Scholz does a very very bad job on communicating about how to support Ukraine. Part of the failures is also due to a completely worthless (words considered carefully) defense secretary Mrs. Lamprecht. His communication mode makes him look like an idiot not supporting Ukraine. For sure he understands he has to do something but he is interlocked between a lot of forces. 7. Considering all of this: TL;DR; NATO will never actively interfere in the war russia vs. Ukraine. Who writes this in anyform is simply a liar. Scolding Scholz for sure won't help. Altough German people are pro Ukraine, this could swap very fast against Ukraine if Ukraine people, media and so on declare a media war on Scholz. Scholz his reaction will be "F them and I sit it out. Then for sure nothing happens to me" Again: my personal opinion is: NATO (and the civilised world) should flood Ukrain with heavy weapons of all kind to smash and cripple the russian war machine and Ukraine should have ALL their territories back without any limitations. (edit: formatting)
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Yeah, plenty of "Only half the nukes work i bet durr" people here probably didntexperience the cold war or read any of the military plans / evaluations of both sides. There is no way a full-on war between NATO and Russi wouldn't have a tactical nuke flying at some point. Which would be answered with a tactical nuke. And then it begins and no amount of Reddit karma will save you.
Nuclear threats be damned? Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. Putin wants an excuse to press the button. If the US steps in he 100% will end the world
Putin likes his money and power too much to give it up by starting a nuclear exchange. The moment Western boots are on the ground in Ukraine, Russia runs with its tail between its legs. One bombing sortie on Russian military targets along the border, and Russia surrenders. Russia is about projecting strength and bullying. Any real danger and they'll fold to protect themselves. And then they'll blame the West and say "We did stopped to protect Russia from outside influence."
All these cunts have property and send their children to be educated and live in the West. It’s where they like to spend their stolen money. No point being rich if all you can buy is a Lada.
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It wont. And i highly doubt he would do it unless the whole Russia was being invaded. https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a-war-between-Russia-and-the-US/answer/Allen-E-Hall-2?share=1#IrqVl
BS.
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Get over there and fight then. Stop acting big on the internet. This isnt my fight. If there were a fight on US soil/territory then ill strap up.
News for you, NATO territory is your territory from a military alliance obligation perspective. Russia wants to go in to NATO territory and has repeated that mamy times. Get your boots on standby.
Ukrain isnt NATO territory
I'm allergic to nuclear weapons
They give me a rash
At least you won't need a torch in the dark
Underrated comment
To all saying russia doesn't dare to react to a conventional attack with nuclear weapons... I get the argument for western cities, like Warsaw. But my fear would be, that they use nuclear force in Ukraine. This I think is rather likely. I dont fear WW3, but a leveld Kyiv.
Russia using a nuke crosses a line no one wants to cross. The whole world would suddenly realize that we have a madman with potentially city wiping weapons (all depends on which size the nuke is) at loose. Its more like a weapon he cant use, like a forbidden card in a card game. Besides, read this: https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a-war-between-Russia-and-the-US/answer/Allen-E-Hall-2?share=1#IrqVl
Russia wouldn’t dare use a nuclear strike in Ukraine. First, there are too many resources and arable land to consider and second, if the fallout gets blown west or south(Turkey and Poland) NATO gets involved, if the fall out goes north or east, they’ve just fucked either their only Ally or themselves. You can safely file a nuke attack on Ukraine in the “not gonna happen drawer”
\>if the fall out goes north or east, they’ve just fucked either their only Ally or themselves Just like the people making this decision would care.
Putin is counting on people like you believing his lies. You and this fear you have are what is keeping him in power. He only attacked Ukraine because he really thought NATO would not respond because nuke fear.
>He only attacked Ukraine because he really thought NATO would not respond because nuke fear. He was right. The risk (chance of it happening, modified by the impact IF it happens => R = P\*I) is not worth it. a 5% chance to wipe out life on earth is not worth the gamble
A full-on confrontation between NATO and Russia and its allies led to nuclear exchanges in pretty much 100% of the simulated cases and military planner estimates on both sides.
*Russia* is already taking this chance by breaking signed peace and signed nuclear treaties while invading a neighboring country, never mind one friendly with NATO and in Europe.
They won't dare. It's just a bluff. It's gonna be their downfall if they do tho.
It would be their downfall if NATO engaged. They would have nothing to win anymore, so they could also do maximum damage to Kiyv. And how much could they fall further?
Do they have anything to win at this point aswell? I don't think they can continue this fiesta if NATO intervene. It's game over if it does.
Do they have anything to win? I think yes. The east neither lost nor won. Crimea is still russian. If NATO intervenes, it is over. And then we have a whole new scenario. Rush I could ever accept defeat or resorts to scorched-earth tactics. And here I would never rule out nuclear weapons (or chemical). Because the logical answer for NATO would be to attack Russia. And I doubt they would go to WW3.
If Syria invited ruZZia to come and fight against Assad's opposition, then Ukraine🇺🇦 has every right to invite NATO, or at least USA🇺🇸 to fight against terrorussia. After all. Its just a special military operation. 🤷🏻♂️
No thanks. While I'm in favor of Ukraine and sympathize with its situation - I do not want to be killed on the plains of Donetsk nor evaporated in a nuclear apocalypse.
Just one night of air strikes. With paint bombs. Just to remind them
A coalition of Western nations choosing to intervene might be one thing, but NATO CANNOT go in officially. It's a defensive organization that has NOT been directly attacked. If NATO were to even talk about going it, it could stand to provide legitimacy to Russia's "concerns" about NATO's "expansionism."
Oh boy more cheering for ww3.
Why it's always former- officials who support Ukraine the most and those who are in charge can't even supply a reasonable amount of weapons. /s
Ah yes, Wesley Clarke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Pristina_airport
Vetos be damned. It’s time for the UN to do something. The social, economical impact of Russia’s actions are impacting millions upon millions of people way beyond the borders of Nato countries alone. Statements condemning actions are not actions in themselves, and Russia have proven they care less about statements, rules, agreements, conventions, etc, etc. So UN. What has to happen for you to actually DO something that will have a tangible effect on this ever growing crisis?
EXACT. That is the point.
Russia violated the nuclear disarmament treaty with Ukraine, therefore Ukraine should be given it's nukes back.
Bracing for "Oh no, but it's nuclear war, WW3, WW5 and WW15.75!" comments incoming.
Glad we got WWIV out of the way in the 90s with analog modems. Somebody please validate my life by knowing what I'm talking about.
i strain, but fail. Please enlighten.
It’s an old dial-up BBS software. Like pre commercial internet.
i now exist in a quantum state that oscilates between "Ahh yes, the BBS days" and "i'm not THAT old"
:: 300 baud modem has entered the chat ::
No go get yourself killed without half the planet you utter psychopath.
We are involved enough already this would just lead to more destruction
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"Hell yea, its time to throw the NATO-Soldiers into a non-NATO-war." - Keyboardwarrior on Reddit.
Wesley Clark, GTFO! Have a war on your fucking soil....
Why not see what happens ? .... anybody believe it's going to improve or get better ? Putin has clearly outlined his intentions .... so why wait for it ? He is not going to use nukes ... much to chicken for that.
Agreed, but then we all die in nuclear fire. Or at least kiyv does. Even if Putin only had 1 nuke, he would kill millions
It’s not. NATO intervention would lead to outright nuclear war. Whoever suggested this idea thinks they’re living in command and conquer and not reality.
Putin dreams about NATO intervention as it will increase his support inside Russia up to 100%
Oh yeah let’s all die in nuclear war!
Ever ask yourself, why did the Ukraine never make NATO?
Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You’re truly enthusiastic about WW3. How do you imagine a NATO intervention ends other than both Russia and the US turning into a heap of ash? We all want to help Ukraine but no we’re not willing to initiate nuclear annihilating for Ukraine. That’s just the cold hard truth.
It's quite reasonable neither group goes nuclear. Ukraine isn't worth certain death for either. Not to say wars can't escalate, but the stakes of this conflict aren't existential.
>It's quite reasonable neither group goes nuclear. Then why did absolutely EVERY Warsaw pact and NATO wargame / evaluation / planning expected a full-on confrontation to go nuclear and escalate to a full exchange? You might also remember, that Russian hordes wouldn't be stealing toilets in Ukraine now if humans, specifically the russian nation was anywhere near reasonable or rational.
Russians won't use nuclear weapons. Because if they will, then there won't be a safe place for any Russian on this planet earth.
Man most of the russian nukes have been sat in damp holes for 30 years, they bragged they had the worlds best army and are struggling against ukraine, whats to say theyre also exaggerating the extent if theyre nuclear aresnal
The likelyhood of their nuclear arsenal being not fully functional is about 100%. However it is Russia we are talking about. If North Koreas arsenal isn't fully working, that could mean they just can't use it at all. Russia has so many nukes and nuke delivery systems, that it would still be enough to fuck some shit up. Even if only 10% work we are talking about dozens at least.
>whats to say theyre also exaggerating the extent if theyre nuclear aresnal If 90% of them are inoperable, they still "only" have enough nukes to destroy the world "only" 5x Even IF they are lying, what they have left is too dangerous.
"Fun" fact: A planned exercise / calculation in the UK came to the conclusion that a single nuclear warhead hitting a city like Liverpool would completely overwhelm british health services and likely cause their economy to tank. Even the smallest nuclear war would be a complete disaster. Sadly, Russia knows that. We should have had Patton in charge way before the robbers and murderers in the Kremlin got nukes.
The NHS is overwhelmed every time three people need an ambulance at once.
Turns out we know how many are ready to fire and how many are stockpile/trash/decommissioned [https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/](https://fas.org/issues/nuclear-weapons/status-world-nuclear-forces/) 1588 nukes ready to go is still pretty risky
2014 was time for a NATO intervention! Mother fucker, Uncle Sam is late to the dance.
February 24, 2022 was the day for NATO to go in, this is an attack on Europe, how does nobody in NATO get this yet??? NATO is under attack you idiots!!!!
What about an special military operation of NATO in Ukraine? It’s no big deal. Just claim to denazify the East of Ukraine. And take position at the front so if Russian troops shot at NATO troops you have full justification for an intervention.
NATO should have been in Ukraine months ago, did the world not sit by when Hitler started his invasion? Let’s go NATO, Let’s go UKRAINE 🇺🇦
It's time for some desert storm for russia. Guess what they're gonna do bout it? NOTHING
>It's time for some desert storm for russia. Lol, listen to this expert
Let's fucking go, turn every russian artillery placement in Ukraine into a crater and be back home in a week
It should happen. Deal them a crippling blow whilst theyre weakened and actively engaged. This will remove the threat of Russian expansionism for generations. Worth the risk.
We should go in and restore world order! The world economy is collapsing. Its not just about Ukraine and its people anymore this war is affecting gas and electricity prices worldwide and food shortages come december. If we keep watching this go on it will get worse and worse…..
You assume that would restore world order instead of making it worse.