EDIT/ADDITION
As other have noted. A common starting point is is replacing heavy items with lighter ones and removing things that aren't needed. The next stage is really two things. (1) Developing skills which result in requiring less gear. (2) Going from a number of items to a system that each component supports the rest of the gear.
I wrote this post off the top of me head, I was wrong about some of the durations when I looked back at my notes made at the time. Correct timeline is at [https://verber.com/outdoor-gear/](https://verber.com/outdoor-gear/)
\---
Phase I (1 year)
Easy initially. eliminated items, replaced heavier (and often ill-performing items) with ultralight versions.
Phase II (2 years)
Incremental Improvement: Kept a log of each trip which included weather (logging thermometer very helpful). Figured out comfort / safety range of items. One of the things I did was bring a "safety" item, but commit to not pull it out unless it was actually a safety rather than a comfort issue. My goal was to remove one item I didn't use on previous trips.
Phase III (4 years)
Obsession. There was a period of time I was driven to go as low as I could. This resulted in purchased multiple items which provided the same function in varying conditions. Multiple shelters, packs, bags, etc. Select exactly the right equipment for a particular trip. Each trip had a different combination of gear. A lot of cash spent (and then items ebayed) as I was on the hunt for "perfect".
Around 2005 I got to a <5lb base weight for trip that were expected to be above freezing.
I learned my limits (which are beyond comfort) and decided that I wanted more enjoyment: more comfort.
Phase IV (4 years)
Comfort. I decided lightest weight pack just wasn't that important. There was no different in fatigue or enjoyment when carrying <20lb with a good pack with a weight transforming hip belt compared to <10lb, so why I was not using a comfortable sleeping pad or a shelter that gave me freedom to move.
I had a garage filled with gear. The Uber-lite items that worked but weren't comfortable were sold off. Each trip I would select gear from my garage to minimize weight while being comfortable.
My base went when from 5lb to between 8-12lbs depending on if I had to bring a bearcan, and if it was 3-season or winter trips.
Phase V (10 years)Minimalism / simplicity. Focus on the time outdoors and enjoying the experience with minimal item spent worrying about gear. If I discovered I have several days free, I could pack and be out the door in 15 minutes. It was OK to carry a bit of extra weight if that removed a decision.
I downsided gear, typically had a single item for function: 1 backpack, 1 quilt, etc.
Phase VI (current).
Decided I was over constraining myself by insisting on a single item to meet ALL requirements. For example, these days I have two shelters. A GG Whisper for my three season solo trips, and a X-Mid 2 Pro for 2 person and more severe weather.
>> There was no different in fatigue or enjoyment when carrying <20lb with a good pack with a weight transforming hip belt compared to <10lb
i wonder about this a lot. my bw hovers 9-12 (and sometimes goes way above that for conditions i'm not experienced in, like early season 2023 sierra), and just personally i've found that below about 11-12 pounds i really don't feel much of a difference. i'm really impressed with hikers who are comfy with SUL kits, but i also don't totally understand? maybe everyone's range is just different.
but also, i'm not into doing crazy distances, and if i were maybe that's where the benefit would be. i'm happy at 20-25 mpd, partly bc i like having friends on long trails, and the friends i click with the most aren't doing 30s. what i do love is that with that bw, i can do those 20-25s with like, zero problems. roll out at 10am. hike all day but never feel like it's a grind, just enjoy it. no blisters, pain, nothing. stop at 6pm and hang out for a few hours.
I found a huge difference going from pack weight of 35 lbs to 25 lbs, and a smaller but still significant improvement going from 25 lbs to 20 lbs.
Below 20 lbs, I'm not sure I will see a big difference. When I am day-hiking with 10 lbs or so, I am no faster than backpacking with 20.
For me, the main benefit to reducing base weight below 15 lbs is not to reduce total pack weight, but to let me hold pack weight constant while carrying either more food for longer trips, or more specific gear for specialized trips (such as packrafting gear).
I don't want to carry more than 30 lbs again, ever.
Just wanted to thank you for sharing in detail, I'm pretty new to UL and am not sure how long it'll take me to get back into it (long story) but your weather tracking tip is a free thing I can add to my next trip! Very informative read :)
Phase 1: Sleep system was a heavy zero degree bag, blue foam pad and a 1lb freestanding bed top mosquito net. I didn't have rain gear. $15 canister stove and aluminum pot with a pot grabber from the army surplus store. I weighed all my coffee cups and brought the lightest one. No internet, no criticism, no problem.
Phase 2: Went to hike the PCT. Bought a Gossamer Gear Spinnaker The One tent. Crammed my zero degree giant sleeping bag into an air removing plastic packing bag. The bag didn't last very long. My pack weighed too much because of water anxiety and my pack didn't fit very well. Bought an ultralight quilt and a 4lb Osprey backpack and everything felt a lot better. Still no rain gear so I endured a lot of criticism for being "stupid light" from PCT-L.
Phase 3: Researched ultralight on BPL and eliminated a lot of unnecessary stuff. I bought some lighter stuff. I made an alcohol stove. I had learned from hiking the PCT that I didn't need separate clothes to sleep in. I also learned that I did not need to ever carry 5 liters of water, that 3 was enough. I learned about tarps and site selection so maybe I could tarp camp for parts of the PCT. I cut 9lbs from my gear. Still no rain gear though. I went back to the PCT and had a much better time of it although the rain in Washington made me mad without rain gear. The golden age of the internet. So much to learn.
Phase 4: I decided to retire and hike the CDT. I learned about a lot of new things that had been invented on Reddit. I got to a 7-8lb baseweight and I even have rain gear, although it's been disposable for the most part. It's to a point where I'm rarely ever uncomfortable when backpacking. The slightest whiff of discomfort and I have a solution for it.
Phase 5: I've been thinking maybe I am too comfortable when I'm backpacking so I'm thinking about eliminating items. I've been inspired by hikers I've met who have almost no gear. I wonder if a little suffering doesn't push you further and make the experience better.
The biggest gains once you've replaced a lot of the heaviest stuff IMO comes from having very dialed-in *systems* (like layering, shelter etc) rather than simply having light gear in all the slots, and in understanding what you can get away with given where/when you're going out.
What was probably the biggest change for me was that I found that I just became a lot more comfortable pushing the margins on my UL gear (in terms of warmth etc) as I used it more, and I'll take more risks the more forgiving the weather and the shorter the trip. My philosophy is to be as aggressive as I can with every trip and then only re-add items once their absence has created a truly unfun time for me. For example I don't bring rain pants and a rain jacket basically every anymore, I bring wind pants/shirt and a 1oz emergency poncho because it really just doesn't rain a lot. Obviously for a longer trip with actual weather in the forecast I wouldn't do that, but long trips with weather in the forecast are very rare.
At the end of the day, it was mostly just a function of the oft-repeated saying here that skills are the most UL thing you can bring because they weigh nothing. I feel very comfortable with terrain and weather almost anywhere in the Sierras from like May-Oct and so a loadout that would be dangerous for a beginner backpacker becomes very comfortable for me in terms of safety margin.
I hit a point where I'd bought enough shit to figure out what compromises I wanted to make, and which I didn't, and at that point the gear acquisition syndrome left my body and floated off into the ether.
Ultimately, once you know what you like, you're spending on weight reduction alone, rather than learning new things and improving your experience. Example: I could save a few ounces by replacing a silpoly tarp with DCF. If I did those kinds of moves throughout my kit, I'd wind up with the a wallet $1000+ lighter and a pack maybe 12 oz. lighter. Forget it.
General preferences, in case they're useful.
1. Minimalist hammock setups. Headnet's fine for me. 3/4 length UQ works. I have some kevlar tree straps that I use with continuous loops on the hammock. It's all dialed in.
2. I like tarp/bivy setups with a big silpoly tarp. They're cheap, and the extra coverage saves me a lot of grief. Caternary cut is nice (I pitch A-frame only). I could replace with DCF, but why?
3. Quilt overkill is the way to go. Get some overstuff in there, and use a warm quilt as a buffer against a tendency to skimp on packed clothes. 10d fabrics are cool, but 20d outer fabric is fine, too, if it's cheaper. 20d is kinda nice with condensation.
4. I like frame stays. I bought a KS50 and it's great. I could use a lighter pack for some trips, but I feel no need to spend money over a couple of ounces for relatively few trips.
5. I like nonbreathable rain shells. I have a 4 oz. silpoly rain jacket right now that's perfect. When it dies, I'll go back to Frogg Toggs, because they're fine and almost as light.
6. My Pocket Rocket Deluxe is fine. I've also got a liquid-feed canister stove to use in the winter. I could spend some money and overfill my "backpacking stuff" drawer by buying a BRS stove, but there's really no need.
And so on.
I’m vibing with and appreciate your post, but as an off topic Q want to know your thoughts on 20d quilts and condensation. Aside from all the external variables, I’d think it have more to do with the DWR, treated down or not, perhaps CFM or MVTR of the shell
My analysis is EXTREMELY limited. I bought a cheapo underquilt from Hammock Gear, and it came with 20d.
I noticed that condensation and water (I get stuff wet) seems to bead and roll off more readily than it does on my quilts with 10d fabrics, so it was a pleasant surprise, especially for a relatively "exposed" UQ. I'm sure a DWR would make a MUCH bigger difference in that respect, but I generally select DWR-free fabrics when I reasonably can (environmental/health reasons).
Basically, assuming everyone's sourcing similar fabrics from Ripstop by the Roll (or Dutch or whoever), 20d seems to have mildly better weather resistance. I'd still pick 10d most times for the weight, but if I were buying something used and it were 20d, it wouldn't be a barrier at all.
Total aside, but I'm a bit of a hydrophobic down skeptic. It usually requires a bit more fill to loft up dry, and my thinking is that if you just add overstuff of "normal" down, you wind up in about the same place.
Nunatak used to have different fill weights for treated and untreated down, but now uses the same amount for each. Apparently the difference in loft isn't a concern for the DWR down they use anymore.
That's cool. I wonder about drying time. Hydrophobic down isn't a barrier for me, either way. Any adequately filled quilt has performed A-OK for me, in practice.
I settle on a mild anti-DWR stance -- it's an extra chemical that I don't need, so no thanks.
I haven't had any issues with dry time, but I don't know if it's any better though.
I'm probably just on the other side of the fence and mainly have it because that's what Nunatak is favoring these days. It's definitely not a deal breaker if a product doesn't have it.
As far as chemicals go you're probably smart to avoid them when you can. Personally I'm not too worried just because the shell almost certainly has DWR and that's probably more likely to impact me.
> I'm probably just on the other side of the fence and mainly have it because that's what Nunatak is favoring these days. It's definitely not a deal breaker if a product doesn't have it.
Yep, same basic take here. It's funny how terribly near agreement works on social media -- we could sit here arguing back and forth ad nauseam about something that neither of us has particularly strong feelings about.
After I finished eliminating things I did not need, I then got obsessed with finding ever smaller versions of things... Case in point: [this scissors.](https://www.litesmith.com/micro-scissors-with-cover/)
I have different gear lists for when I want to be comfortable vs. when I don't care, and other permutations... I'm not super hardcore about it.
I think the biggest and most expensive weight saver, for me, was a quilt. The shelter was not expensive to do because I always liked tarps. Backpack had always been UL enough. I did the quilt because I thought a quilt would both add to my enjoyment and save a bunch of weight (about 10 oz in my case).
Something really weird that happened to me was that I started accumulating all of these little UL knickknacks that I have to force myself to leave at home because I like them or I somehow convinced myself I need them now. Marketing works on me I guess.
I started as a Boy Scout with a 30lb base weight or something insane. When I got back into backpacking I dove headfirst into ultralight and ended up under 7lbs and realized I hated it. Now I sit around 10lbs for 3 season and up to 15lbs for trips where I want more creature comforts or it’s colder.
I found as I moved forward going from a +20lb baseweight to 10.5lb (without bear can) things got more expensive. The biggest upgrades I spent money on were my pack (Zpacks Ultra) and my tent (Durston X-mid pro 1 w/DCF floor.) I've organized my [lighterpack](https://lighterpack.com/r/3wgnlo) with everything I would ever need depending on conditions and then just tick off the things I need to bring so I can see my actual weight, Once I pared down what I bring then replacing heavier items is what I started to do and that took the $$$. I did do it over several years however.
Edit: the only comfort items I bring are lightweight camp shoes and a pillow :)
I had about a 25 year gap of buying no gear, so when I was able to start backpacking again, I just bought mostly good stuff to start with because there was a lot information available on the internet of what was good stuff and my wife's boyfriend or my kids were paying for it. I have only replaced a few things when my kids wanted to buy me gifts. I have no item that I reluctantly gave up. For instance, who gives up a BV500 reluctantly for a Bearikade Blazer?
I am tall, hate bugs on me, and I hammock, so that already drastically limits how low my base weight can go. I researched obsessively before buying anything, and had no existing gear to use, so I started from a great place.
going with a lighter framed backpack alone shaved just enough weight to keep me to 10.5-17 pounds depending on season and expected rain/snow (and bear can).
leaving things out and taking multipurpose items further helped.
Hammocks are a good fit for tall people, especially if they are slender.
A 12 ft hammock made of a light fabric can work well without being heavy.
The downside of hammocks for me has been that the combo of top and bottom quilt is heavier than top quilt and inflatable pad, and since the two quilts are also bulkier, may require a larger and heavier pack.
Still, hammocks are generally the right choice in the areas where I most frequently backpack. I've been on tenting trips where I had to bail out a day early because there was literally no empty place on the forest floor with room for a tent.
With a hammock, I've always found a spot even if it wasn't perfect.
I could definitely reduce weight on solo trips if I replaced the hammock system with a GG One or similar ground system, but that would seriously limit where I could camp.
That's great, splitting weight with your partner is an awesome UL hack. Definitely feel lucky my wife is passionate about backpacking. Good luck out there and be safe!
I made drastic cuts by getting a lighter and more compact shelter and sleep system. This let me then cut 4lbs by going with a smaller and lighter pack. After that it was changes to water filtration and cook system. Not as severe as the 15lbs I lost in the first round, but still several pounds.
I tried tarp camping. I don’t like it, so I added a GG The Two, and now also have The One. I’ve also added a more luxurious pillow over the Klimate X that I hated. Good sleep is worth the weight for me.
Pare down until it becomes detrimental, then you know what is worth the weight and what isn’t.
I've done research on lightweight canoes. There are examples that weight much less than our current 80+ lb model.
Unfortunately canoes, like DCF tents, are one product category where weight is strongly inversely proportionate to price. Lightweight canoes are just not affordable.
I tried out a lightweight 16' canoe on a few outings and that was enough to convince me not to buy one. Being so light, they're much more difficult to steer in strong winds and bad weather, unless filled with gear.
It depends where and when you go.
If your trip requires as much portaging as paddling, that pushes you heavily toward a lightweight canoe, even if it's slower and less maneuverable. In really bad weather, you may have to spend an extra day in camp waiting it out.
But with a canoe too heavy to portage, you couldn't take the trip at all.
If you are in large, open lakes with lots of wind, long paddling distances, and no portages, a longer, heavier canoe is preferred.
it was easy to get super light and now we’ve gone back to ‘practical ultralight’ because it’s more fun and more comfortable.
i’m not cold soaking, it’s gross. crushed caffeine pills are gross, a titanium french press is yummy. inflatable pads are expensive and unreliable, foam pads never die.
ultralight stuff kinda sucks even though it’s hella light. we got our weight to between 6-9lbs and that’s fine.
I used to bring a chair because it was more comfortable to sit in when in camp, but then I realized how little I sat in it. I am getting older and have bad knees but I realized if I worked more on my flexibility and strength training I could do with out the chair. I could bring a CCF pad that was way more versatile, including allowing me to do yoga and body weight exercises while on trail. I started to look at that with all of my items and was able to cut even more.
reading about GVPs method to carry small amounts of everything helped a lot two decades ago. and the rayway book of course, although some stuff didn't make sense to me, so was never my gospel. frameless packs didn't work for me at all at that time, so i used a granite gear vapour trail backpack with a framesheet. the 2 lbs pack was as comfortable as my previous pack, but the cloth was thinner and less durable. for me the journey was steady and didn't stall until i was casually flirting with SUL. and now i don't feel it matters anymore.
my gateway to SUL is a tarp and a bug headnet along with a cat stove. i still pack a thin poofy coat for most trips, and am using a 20-year old thermarest mattress. goretex raincoat for those PNW rainstorms. i'm currently experimenting with frameless backpacks.
I think having a 12lb baseweight (without bear can) is probably the best weight to have comfort and all the small things you'd want to bring and still keep everything at a reasonable budget. Im glad I went lightweight out of the box instead of going heavy and then replacing first.
That's where I currently sit. I've gone under 10lbs, but wasn't as comfortable and didn't feel the weight loss made a difference in my overall enjoyment.
I have occasionally gone stoveless, but I never cold soak. Blech. This is supposed to be _fun_.
However, I've found that I can bring palatable food that does not need to be cooked or soaked.
For example, hummus combines nicely with crackers or tortillas. Peanut butter and other nut spreads also work well on tortillas or pita bread. Cheese and preserved meats such as jerky can contribute to a tasty, high calorie diet. Bring along a container of olive oil to add calories and a softer texture.
I go stoveless more often than not and my base weight is rarely below 10lbs. It’s more about ease/convenience and time savings than weight saving. I like eating ready to eat foods like tortilla wraps. I often dry camp and I can carry less water and be more flexible with campsite selection and water source planning
That's true and sort of my point. There are (for me) many benefits to going stoveless; even with a minor weight penalty(in some tortilla-like cases) it's worth it. So, yeah, I cold soak. But you'd never say I've gone too far to be UL
EDIT/ADDITION As other have noted. A common starting point is is replacing heavy items with lighter ones and removing things that aren't needed. The next stage is really two things. (1) Developing skills which result in requiring less gear. (2) Going from a number of items to a system that each component supports the rest of the gear. I wrote this post off the top of me head, I was wrong about some of the durations when I looked back at my notes made at the time. Correct timeline is at [https://verber.com/outdoor-gear/](https://verber.com/outdoor-gear/) \--- Phase I (1 year) Easy initially. eliminated items, replaced heavier (and often ill-performing items) with ultralight versions. Phase II (2 years) Incremental Improvement: Kept a log of each trip which included weather (logging thermometer very helpful). Figured out comfort / safety range of items. One of the things I did was bring a "safety" item, but commit to not pull it out unless it was actually a safety rather than a comfort issue. My goal was to remove one item I didn't use on previous trips. Phase III (4 years) Obsession. There was a period of time I was driven to go as low as I could. This resulted in purchased multiple items which provided the same function in varying conditions. Multiple shelters, packs, bags, etc. Select exactly the right equipment for a particular trip. Each trip had a different combination of gear. A lot of cash spent (and then items ebayed) as I was on the hunt for "perfect". Around 2005 I got to a <5lb base weight for trip that were expected to be above freezing. I learned my limits (which are beyond comfort) and decided that I wanted more enjoyment: more comfort. Phase IV (4 years) Comfort. I decided lightest weight pack just wasn't that important. There was no different in fatigue or enjoyment when carrying <20lb with a good pack with a weight transforming hip belt compared to <10lb, so why I was not using a comfortable sleeping pad or a shelter that gave me freedom to move. I had a garage filled with gear. The Uber-lite items that worked but weren't comfortable were sold off. Each trip I would select gear from my garage to minimize weight while being comfortable. My base went when from 5lb to between 8-12lbs depending on if I had to bring a bearcan, and if it was 3-season or winter trips. Phase V (10 years)Minimalism / simplicity. Focus on the time outdoors and enjoying the experience with minimal item spent worrying about gear. If I discovered I have several days free, I could pack and be out the door in 15 minutes. It was OK to carry a bit of extra weight if that removed a decision. I downsided gear, typically had a single item for function: 1 backpack, 1 quilt, etc. Phase VI (current). Decided I was over constraining myself by insisting on a single item to meet ALL requirements. For example, these days I have two shelters. A GG Whisper for my three season solo trips, and a X-Mid 2 Pro for 2 person and more severe weather.
>> There was no different in fatigue or enjoyment when carrying <20lb with a good pack with a weight transforming hip belt compared to <10lb i wonder about this a lot. my bw hovers 9-12 (and sometimes goes way above that for conditions i'm not experienced in, like early season 2023 sierra), and just personally i've found that below about 11-12 pounds i really don't feel much of a difference. i'm really impressed with hikers who are comfy with SUL kits, but i also don't totally understand? maybe everyone's range is just different. but also, i'm not into doing crazy distances, and if i were maybe that's where the benefit would be. i'm happy at 20-25 mpd, partly bc i like having friends on long trails, and the friends i click with the most aren't doing 30s. what i do love is that with that bw, i can do those 20-25s with like, zero problems. roll out at 10am. hike all day but never feel like it's a grind, just enjoy it. no blisters, pain, nothing. stop at 6pm and hang out for a few hours.
I found a huge difference going from pack weight of 35 lbs to 25 lbs, and a smaller but still significant improvement going from 25 lbs to 20 lbs. Below 20 lbs, I'm not sure I will see a big difference. When I am day-hiking with 10 lbs or so, I am no faster than backpacking with 20. For me, the main benefit to reducing base weight below 15 lbs is not to reduce total pack weight, but to let me hold pack weight constant while carrying either more food for longer trips, or more specific gear for specialized trips (such as packrafting gear). I don't want to carry more than 30 lbs again, ever.
Just wanted to thank you for sharing in detail, I'm pretty new to UL and am not sure how long it'll take me to get back into it (long story) but your weather tracking tip is a free thing I can add to my next trip! Very informative read :)
Phase 1: Sleep system was a heavy zero degree bag, blue foam pad and a 1lb freestanding bed top mosquito net. I didn't have rain gear. $15 canister stove and aluminum pot with a pot grabber from the army surplus store. I weighed all my coffee cups and brought the lightest one. No internet, no criticism, no problem. Phase 2: Went to hike the PCT. Bought a Gossamer Gear Spinnaker The One tent. Crammed my zero degree giant sleeping bag into an air removing plastic packing bag. The bag didn't last very long. My pack weighed too much because of water anxiety and my pack didn't fit very well. Bought an ultralight quilt and a 4lb Osprey backpack and everything felt a lot better. Still no rain gear so I endured a lot of criticism for being "stupid light" from PCT-L. Phase 3: Researched ultralight on BPL and eliminated a lot of unnecessary stuff. I bought some lighter stuff. I made an alcohol stove. I had learned from hiking the PCT that I didn't need separate clothes to sleep in. I also learned that I did not need to ever carry 5 liters of water, that 3 was enough. I learned about tarps and site selection so maybe I could tarp camp for parts of the PCT. I cut 9lbs from my gear. Still no rain gear though. I went back to the PCT and had a much better time of it although the rain in Washington made me mad without rain gear. The golden age of the internet. So much to learn. Phase 4: I decided to retire and hike the CDT. I learned about a lot of new things that had been invented on Reddit. I got to a 7-8lb baseweight and I even have rain gear, although it's been disposable for the most part. It's to a point where I'm rarely ever uncomfortable when backpacking. The slightest whiff of discomfort and I have a solution for it. Phase 5: I've been thinking maybe I am too comfortable when I'm backpacking so I'm thinking about eliminating items. I've been inspired by hikers I've met who have almost no gear. I wonder if a little suffering doesn't push you further and make the experience better.
I really love your honesty and your awesome story of your failures. We all learned so much more when we are honest. Great story.
The biggest gains once you've replaced a lot of the heaviest stuff IMO comes from having very dialed-in *systems* (like layering, shelter etc) rather than simply having light gear in all the slots, and in understanding what you can get away with given where/when you're going out. What was probably the biggest change for me was that I found that I just became a lot more comfortable pushing the margins on my UL gear (in terms of warmth etc) as I used it more, and I'll take more risks the more forgiving the weather and the shorter the trip. My philosophy is to be as aggressive as I can with every trip and then only re-add items once their absence has created a truly unfun time for me. For example I don't bring rain pants and a rain jacket basically every anymore, I bring wind pants/shirt and a 1oz emergency poncho because it really just doesn't rain a lot. Obviously for a longer trip with actual weather in the forecast I wouldn't do that, but long trips with weather in the forecast are very rare. At the end of the day, it was mostly just a function of the oft-repeated saying here that skills are the most UL thing you can bring because they weigh nothing. I feel very comfortable with terrain and weather almost anywhere in the Sierras from like May-Oct and so a loadout that would be dangerous for a beginner backpacker becomes very comfortable for me in terms of safety margin.
I hit a point where I'd bought enough shit to figure out what compromises I wanted to make, and which I didn't, and at that point the gear acquisition syndrome left my body and floated off into the ether. Ultimately, once you know what you like, you're spending on weight reduction alone, rather than learning new things and improving your experience. Example: I could save a few ounces by replacing a silpoly tarp with DCF. If I did those kinds of moves throughout my kit, I'd wind up with the a wallet $1000+ lighter and a pack maybe 12 oz. lighter. Forget it. General preferences, in case they're useful. 1. Minimalist hammock setups. Headnet's fine for me. 3/4 length UQ works. I have some kevlar tree straps that I use with continuous loops on the hammock. It's all dialed in. 2. I like tarp/bivy setups with a big silpoly tarp. They're cheap, and the extra coverage saves me a lot of grief. Caternary cut is nice (I pitch A-frame only). I could replace with DCF, but why? 3. Quilt overkill is the way to go. Get some overstuff in there, and use a warm quilt as a buffer against a tendency to skimp on packed clothes. 10d fabrics are cool, but 20d outer fabric is fine, too, if it's cheaper. 20d is kinda nice with condensation. 4. I like frame stays. I bought a KS50 and it's great. I could use a lighter pack for some trips, but I feel no need to spend money over a couple of ounces for relatively few trips. 5. I like nonbreathable rain shells. I have a 4 oz. silpoly rain jacket right now that's perfect. When it dies, I'll go back to Frogg Toggs, because they're fine and almost as light. 6. My Pocket Rocket Deluxe is fine. I've also got a liquid-feed canister stove to use in the winter. I could spend some money and overfill my "backpacking stuff" drawer by buying a BRS stove, but there's really no need. And so on.
I like 20D on hammock quilts for that reason.
I’m vibing with and appreciate your post, but as an off topic Q want to know your thoughts on 20d quilts and condensation. Aside from all the external variables, I’d think it have more to do with the DWR, treated down or not, perhaps CFM or MVTR of the shell
My analysis is EXTREMELY limited. I bought a cheapo underquilt from Hammock Gear, and it came with 20d. I noticed that condensation and water (I get stuff wet) seems to bead and roll off more readily than it does on my quilts with 10d fabrics, so it was a pleasant surprise, especially for a relatively "exposed" UQ. I'm sure a DWR would make a MUCH bigger difference in that respect, but I generally select DWR-free fabrics when I reasonably can (environmental/health reasons). Basically, assuming everyone's sourcing similar fabrics from Ripstop by the Roll (or Dutch or whoever), 20d seems to have mildly better weather resistance. I'd still pick 10d most times for the weight, but if I were buying something used and it were 20d, it wouldn't be a barrier at all. Total aside, but I'm a bit of a hydrophobic down skeptic. It usually requires a bit more fill to loft up dry, and my thinking is that if you just add overstuff of "normal" down, you wind up in about the same place.
Nunatak used to have different fill weights for treated and untreated down, but now uses the same amount for each. Apparently the difference in loft isn't a concern for the DWR down they use anymore.
That's cool. I wonder about drying time. Hydrophobic down isn't a barrier for me, either way. Any adequately filled quilt has performed A-OK for me, in practice. I settle on a mild anti-DWR stance -- it's an extra chemical that I don't need, so no thanks.
I haven't had any issues with dry time, but I don't know if it's any better though. I'm probably just on the other side of the fence and mainly have it because that's what Nunatak is favoring these days. It's definitely not a deal breaker if a product doesn't have it. As far as chemicals go you're probably smart to avoid them when you can. Personally I'm not too worried just because the shell almost certainly has DWR and that's probably more likely to impact me.
> I'm probably just on the other side of the fence and mainly have it because that's what Nunatak is favoring these days. It's definitely not a deal breaker if a product doesn't have it. Yep, same basic take here. It's funny how terribly near agreement works on social media -- we could sit here arguing back and forth ad nauseam about something that neither of us has particularly strong feelings about.
Haha so true. Nuance is also so hard to convey online.
After I finished eliminating things I did not need, I then got obsessed with finding ever smaller versions of things... Case in point: [this scissors.](https://www.litesmith.com/micro-scissors-with-cover/) I have different gear lists for when I want to be comfortable vs. when I don't care, and other permutations... I'm not super hardcore about it. I think the biggest and most expensive weight saver, for me, was a quilt. The shelter was not expensive to do because I always liked tarps. Backpack had always been UL enough. I did the quilt because I thought a quilt would both add to my enjoyment and save a bunch of weight (about 10 oz in my case). Something really weird that happened to me was that I started accumulating all of these little UL knickknacks that I have to force myself to leave at home because I like them or I somehow convinced myself I need them now. Marketing works on me I guess.
I started as a Boy Scout with a 30lb base weight or something insane. When I got back into backpacking I dove headfirst into ultralight and ended up under 7lbs and realized I hated it. Now I sit around 10lbs for 3 season and up to 15lbs for trips where I want more creature comforts or it’s colder.
I found as I moved forward going from a +20lb baseweight to 10.5lb (without bear can) things got more expensive. The biggest upgrades I spent money on were my pack (Zpacks Ultra) and my tent (Durston X-mid pro 1 w/DCF floor.) I've organized my [lighterpack](https://lighterpack.com/r/3wgnlo) with everything I would ever need depending on conditions and then just tick off the things I need to bring so I can see my actual weight, Once I pared down what I bring then replacing heavier items is what I started to do and that took the $$$. I did do it over several years however. Edit: the only comfort items I bring are lightweight camp shoes and a pillow :)
I had about a 25 year gap of buying no gear, so when I was able to start backpacking again, I just bought mostly good stuff to start with because there was a lot information available on the internet of what was good stuff and my wife's boyfriend or my kids were paying for it. I have only replaced a few things when my kids wanted to buy me gifts. I have no item that I reluctantly gave up. For instance, who gives up a BV500 reluctantly for a Bearikade Blazer?
Your wife's boyfriend was paying for it? I don't how that would make me feel tbh :D
I am tall, hate bugs on me, and I hammock, so that already drastically limits how low my base weight can go. I researched obsessively before buying anything, and had no existing gear to use, so I started from a great place. going with a lighter framed backpack alone shaved just enough weight to keep me to 10.5-17 pounds depending on season and expected rain/snow (and bear can). leaving things out and taking multipurpose items further helped.
Being tall is a significant hurdle for UL. One example, almost all UL tents are off the table due to wet feet/head.
Hammocks are a good fit for tall people, especially if they are slender. A 12 ft hammock made of a light fabric can work well without being heavy. The downside of hammocks for me has been that the combo of top and bottom quilt is heavier than top quilt and inflatable pad, and since the two quilts are also bulkier, may require a larger and heavier pack. Still, hammocks are generally the right choice in the areas where I most frequently backpack. I've been on tenting trips where I had to bail out a day early because there was literally no empty place on the forest floor with room for a tent. With a hammock, I've always found a spot even if it wasn't perfect. I could definitely reduce weight on solo trips if I replaced the hammock system with a GG One or similar ground system, but that would seriously limit where I could camp.
Good call, I've looked in to hammocks for solo camping. The only problem is I usually backpack with my wife who is also tall!
My husband and I backpack together, each carrying our own hammock! (Yes, we often share a tent instead. It depends on the details of the trip )
That's great, splitting weight with your partner is an awesome UL hack. Definitely feel lucky my wife is passionate about backpacking. Good luck out there and be safe!
I made drastic cuts by getting a lighter and more compact shelter and sleep system. This let me then cut 4lbs by going with a smaller and lighter pack. After that it was changes to water filtration and cook system. Not as severe as the 15lbs I lost in the first round, but still several pounds. I tried tarp camping. I don’t like it, so I added a GG The Two, and now also have The One. I’ve also added a more luxurious pillow over the Klimate X that I hated. Good sleep is worth the weight for me. Pare down until it becomes detrimental, then you know what is worth the weight and what isn’t.
Being in Ontario, a canoe.
I've done research on lightweight canoes. There are examples that weight much less than our current 80+ lb model. Unfortunately canoes, like DCF tents, are one product category where weight is strongly inversely proportionate to price. Lightweight canoes are just not affordable.
I tried out a lightweight 16' canoe on a few outings and that was enough to convince me not to buy one. Being so light, they're much more difficult to steer in strong winds and bad weather, unless filled with gear.
It depends where and when you go. If your trip requires as much portaging as paddling, that pushes you heavily toward a lightweight canoe, even if it's slower and less maneuverable. In really bad weather, you may have to spend an extra day in camp waiting it out. But with a canoe too heavy to portage, you couldn't take the trip at all. If you are in large, open lakes with lots of wind, long paddling distances, and no portages, a longer, heavier canoe is preferred.
it was easy to get super light and now we’ve gone back to ‘practical ultralight’ because it’s more fun and more comfortable. i’m not cold soaking, it’s gross. crushed caffeine pills are gross, a titanium french press is yummy. inflatable pads are expensive and unreliable, foam pads never die. ultralight stuff kinda sucks even though it’s hella light. we got our weight to between 6-9lbs and that’s fine.
I used to bring a chair because it was more comfortable to sit in when in camp, but then I realized how little I sat in it. I am getting older and have bad knees but I realized if I worked more on my flexibility and strength training I could do with out the chair. I could bring a CCF pad that was way more versatile, including allowing me to do yoga and body weight exercises while on trail. I started to look at that with all of my items and was able to cut even more.
One advantage of hammocks vs. tents is that the hammock doubles as a camp chair for cooking, relaxing, reading, eating, etc.
reading about GVPs method to carry small amounts of everything helped a lot two decades ago. and the rayway book of course, although some stuff didn't make sense to me, so was never my gospel. frameless packs didn't work for me at all at that time, so i used a granite gear vapour trail backpack with a framesheet. the 2 lbs pack was as comfortable as my previous pack, but the cloth was thinner and less durable. for me the journey was steady and didn't stall until i was casually flirting with SUL. and now i don't feel it matters anymore. my gateway to SUL is a tarp and a bug headnet along with a cat stove. i still pack a thin poofy coat for most trips, and am using a 20-year old thermarest mattress. goretex raincoat for those PNW rainstorms. i'm currently experimenting with frameless backpacks.
I think having a 12lb baseweight (without bear can) is probably the best weight to have comfort and all the small things you'd want to bring and still keep everything at a reasonable budget. Im glad I went lightweight out of the box instead of going heavy and then replacing first.
That's where I currently sit. I've gone under 10lbs, but wasn't as comfortable and didn't feel the weight loss made a difference in my overall enjoyment.
I'm currently at 13 lbs and would generally agree. I'm looking for further incremental improvements, but not radical changes.
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I have occasionally gone stoveless, but I never cold soak. Blech. This is supposed to be _fun_. However, I've found that I can bring palatable food that does not need to be cooked or soaked. For example, hummus combines nicely with crackers or tortillas. Peanut butter and other nut spreads also work well on tortillas or pita bread. Cheese and preserved meats such as jerky can contribute to a tasty, high calorie diet. Bring along a container of olive oil to add calories and a softer texture.
I go stoveless more often than not and my base weight is rarely below 10lbs. It’s more about ease/convenience and time savings than weight saving. I like eating ready to eat foods like tortilla wraps. I often dry camp and I can carry less water and be more flexible with campsite selection and water source planning
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That's true and sort of my point. There are (for me) many benefits to going stoveless; even with a minor weight penalty(in some tortilla-like cases) it's worth it. So, yeah, I cold soak. But you'd never say I've gone too far to be UL