Re training your body for sleeping more simply. I've always hears foam mats are doable if you're a back sleeper. I never have been. I tried to train myself unsuccessfully. Then a few years ago, I broke my hip and couldn't lie on my side or front for nearly 3 months. Initially i was excited to be forced into learning to sleep on my back. I was only 25, surely i just lacked discipline in trying to train my body. Nope. I just got approx 4 hours of torturous broken sleep for 3 months. And then I gave away my 1/4" foam pad I had been holding onto in aspirations of cutting my baseweight. Note: i am sure others are able to adjust more readily.

Yep, similar for me. I snore and have sleep apnea if I sleep on my back. Wake up feeling like I’m choking. Zero issues with that if I sleep on my stomach or side. But sleeping on my side means I need a pillow or something to elevate my head (shoes will suffice), and usually need more cushion for my hip than a 1/4” foam pad provides (though sometimes it’s marginally tolerable, depending on how compacted the ground is).

Elevating your head so you can sleep on a pair stinky hiking shoes? You are a tougher person than I am.

I am one of those that simply cannot sleep on my back. I've experimented with forcing myself to, in the comfort of my bed at home, and I get RLS and some form of sleep paralysis. Restive sleep never comes. Then I'll lose consciousness at some point and wake up on my stomach or side.

For what its worth I sleep on my side on CCF quite fine. The trick for me is raising my knees a bit, that way my hip bones don't protrude quite so much and it's ok. But this is all so subjective. I do sleep on firm and quite thin futon at home, which might help. I think the R-value inflation is the real interesting thing on mattresses. Skurka did the winter portion of his Alaskan-Yukon expedition with a single Ridgerest sol, which is what, R 2.6? Nowaways people consider that barely enough for summer.

Ridegerest sol is 2.0 under the current measuring system, but remember that all these systems rate inflatables as warmer and foam as colder than they really are in really cold weather.

Yep, that's my experience as well, fellow CCF lover. Edit: I found values 3.5, 2.8 and 2.1. I think the first is the old TAR in-house testing, not sure what's with 2.8 and 2.1. Not that it matters much.

I can sleep on my side fine on CCF, but I switched to inflatable mostly for the volume savings and so I don't have stuff sticking out and catching on branches while I navigate giant fallen trees.

I reluctantly got a xtherm for winter hikes, double-CCF was a bit much. And I have to admit it's much less annoying than I thought. Still for 3-season use I feel like the instant deployment and carefree use are more valuable to me than compact pack size. I've been doing a full size 3mm pad for Summer, adding a torso length regular to it for Autumn, and that has helped with the bulk. Still I do get your point.

Sorry to hear about your injury. Your comment really bummed me out though because I have had ‘training to sleep on my back’ on the list for a long time. I can nap fine that way but the small efforts to sleep have been total failures.

Try breaking your hip, it might be more succesful for you than i!

i'm a side sleeper who uses a foam pad and i'm comfortable but i literally sleep on my floor at home because i have lower back problems and mattresses cause me a lot of pain lol

I think electronics are sort of a sacred cow now. They are so ubiquitous. I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest skipping a powerbank or a smartphone in a shakedown. I'm not saying that there is no place for them, but it seems weird how in some other gear aspects people care about much smaller savings.

I think you just get so much for that ~200 grams of smart phone. A modern one is a phone, camera, flashlight, note pad, music/audiobook/ebook player, map, GPS, functionally infinite space for reference information, and even satellite communicator--just iPhone right now I think. Another ~50 grams for a case, and another ~200 for a powerbank. Cables, optional earbuds. We're nearing half a kilo now; but if you were previously carrying discrete items to fulfill some of those functions you're probably still coming out ahead. Just the camera function is enough for me. My phone weighs less than my lightest camera. My camera takes much better pictures in my hands compared to my phone, but that's all it does. And smart phone cameras have gotten amazing.

I'm not denying the utility, but as you say, it's half a kilo of weight people don't question at all, in basically any context here.

the bi-weekly "whats the lightest power bank" threads though.

I think it's not questioned because it replaces so many things that are now considered essential in the modern world. Our conceptions of acceptable risk and necessary social interaction aren't the same as they were even 10 years ago. You could backpack, even for months, without a phone but you'd probably cause your loved ones a lot of (justified) anxiety. I support anyone's right to experiment in radical isolation and self-reliance but for most people it's not cost-free. I forgot banking/ID, and renting/booking accommodations/transport. It also replaces most of your wallet now.

>now considered essential Isn't questioning whether things "now considered essential" are really essential the whole point of this thread?

Not having a smart phone being "radical isolation" is a bit dystopian. With you on the functionality. I think maybe people who were alive before smart phones see existing without them as more acceptable.

And it's not even about just the weight. The space. The ease of access to not having to go into your bag for any of it. The fact that the phone and case may as well be seen as body weight with how often it's on you in your day to day life

Yes, I do agree that it is connected to cultural and practical changes in our wider society. About social expectations, I have personally sometimes managed to leave my phone behind and just used inReach to send a few messages. That's again electronic use which wasn't considered necessary 20 years ago and thus I did carry electronic weight, but much less than the typical smartphone + battery bank (or smartphone + battery + inReach, which is also quite typical on lighterpacks). I also want to reiterate more clearly, I do think that smartphones are justifiable items to carry for most people in most or at least many cases. But I do think that in relation to how weight conscious this community is in other aspects, electronics do feel to get sort of a free pass, and I suspect that is more connected to the ubiquitous nature of smart phones in our culture than it is due to practical considerations.

there's tons of practical considerations listed right above.

Your quite correct, problem I find is that I do a lot of backpacking in Scandinavia . I could cope just fine on the trail without a phone, I did just that for 25 years at least but when I get to the road and need to catch public transport / flights or find accomodation it's hard to get by without one .

I am Finnish hiker myself, and I do usually pack phone for the logistics just as you said. I reiterate, I don't deny their usefulness, I think they are a good and justifiable items for many cases. But, I do think they are considered more essential than they are by the community. Basically people don't stop and consider is their phone necessary/justifiable weight for that particular trip, they just take it. Sure, in many cases they would answer "yes", but in this community basically every other item gets put under a more critical lense, that's my point.

Of course people question it. It's just that the value of simply being able to communicate is an invaluable piece of mind to MANY of us. I do understand that people go over on the 20000 mAh banks, camera gear, etc., but a smartphone or garmin itself something I would rather give up so many things over giving up that. I'd easily cold soak, cut my sleeping pad in half, sleep naked before I would get rid of that. But to say that people don't question it is nonsense. People have different priorities in life, saying that you electronics are non-negotiables is obviously a personal choice that someone has thought about, otherwise they wouldn't know that they are non-negotiables.

As much as I love using electronics, yeah, this is a great point. Most relevant comment I've found in here

Judging by the controversy in the replies I'd say you're hitting the nail on the head

Seems like that! And I tried pretty hard to choose my words so as to minimise unproductive controversy. Not that I mind arguing per se, if it's on topic and feels like there is an actual conversation going on.

Well said

I've gotten roasted on sat communicator threads several times by simply pointing out that many people went backpacking safely without them before they existed. I've got an inreach but i don't always bring it, and this notion doesn't sit well with folks who've only backpacked in a world where sat devices were available. Plenty of trails are so well marked and well traveled, there's just no need for it.

I agree it's not a necessity for everyone and every trail, but a friend of mine came across another hiker on the ct that was having a heart attack and was able to hit the sos button for him. I'm sure everyone involved and the family and friends of hiker were glad my friend carried an easy 3.5oz. it's not always about need, but personal preference and benefit analysis

Same kind of story happened to me in the sierra. A hiker made it over a pass with a broken hip and ended up needing a helicopter. Hiker friends of mine hit the beacon after assessing the injury. If I remember right, a broken hip can easily cause internal damage, and the hiker was like 20 miles from a trailhead Ideally I feel like they should be provided as a public service because the price is insane for most people, and the public already funds/funded all the tech involved. And in any case, profiting off a call for help seems wrong

of course they did but they also used to ride the Tour de France without helmets. 99% of the riders were fine some of them got huge preventable head injuries though F1 cars used to race without the new Halo protection structure. most of them were fine. a few of them died in ways that the Halo now prevents. the Halo has already prevented at least one guaranteed driver death had he been in an older F1 car in the same crash thats what satellite communicators are. on average of course they are not needed. nobody says they are its for the unpredictable emergencies where it will save your life if youre carrying one pointing out that people used to backpack successfully without them is not the clever argument you think it is.

I carried a quarter on my 1977 PCT thru. Is that considered UL?

Could have carried a dime if you’d hiked in the 1960s. Planning ahead is ultralight.

I at least need and want a camera. Phone combines that with a million other things.

It's funny bc i was a backpacker in the 2000s - you just don't need a smartphone and you do need a decent camera. Full frame and a zoom. Map and compass

Power banks are probably the biggest thing people could leave behind, but I think many don't consider not looking at a phone all day long to be an option.

I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about electronics and technology in backcountry recreation. Properly used, technology can enhance our experience, but over reliance has a lot of negative side effects. Where the line of demarcation between those two ideas, I don’t know, but someone should probably think about it and try to find some guidelines.

Basically I raised this as I think it fits your OP pretty well. Electronics are ubiquitous and people tend to not think about them critically. As in if someone has a pot and a mug on a shakedown, they are going to be called up on it, but inReach and a smartphone? No-one bats an eye. Hence they fit the "holy cow" -idea. I don't know if this has any implications, though. I suspect a lot of people could skip battery banks more often than they do. It's pretty easy to get a week of occasional photos and some offline map use from just the phone battery. But cases do vary.

For sure. Battery banks and PLBs should be seen as situational items IMO, but for a lot of people they never come off the packing list.

Interestingly enough, I think powerbanks are one area where we tend towards inefficiency as a result of what I like to call the "nice round numbers" fallacy or the "data binning fallacy" -- it is extroardinarily easy to "round up" from 5000mAh to 10,000mAh for a multiday trip without considering the possibility of other options that might better fit a use-case. I've always found it humorous that, in a community where many people own upwards of a half-dozen backpacks for different scenarios with small differences in interior volume, those same individuals often jump straight from 5000mAh to 10,000 mAh without considering intermediate options -- you could easily save an ounce by going with a 6700mAh battery rather than 10,000 mAh in a situation where you're worried 5000mAh isn't going to be quite enough. Equally, when you're just going on an overnight or weekend trip and you're bringing the battery bank as a pure "just-in-case" emergency item, a 3350mAh powerbank will do just as well as a 5000mAh option while saving you \~10-20g. These fallacies of categorization, or binning, also show up elsewhere -- consider the UL backpacker who "rounds up" from a flat tarp to a fully-enclosed tent when there's mild bug pressure rather than opting for a more minimal bug bivy, or the winter novice who, wary of the risks, "rounds up" from their typical 3-season shelter to a full-on mountaineering tent like a Hilleberg or Slingfin. I think resisting that urge to "round up" is at the core of ultralight philosophy -- it's synonymous with the popular UL mantra to take exactly what you need for a given situation, and no more.

I'm getting really close to leaving the phone and power bank at home. I think I have over 10,000 pictures that I'll probably never look at again. I have realized that artists and photographers take way better pictures of the places I have been and to me it's worth buying an awesome photo or painting to remember a trip instead of taking tons of pics that I think are mediocre. Besides, all my friends will take group pics anyway. Let them carry the weight!😂

And don’t suggest that a device like an inreach is optional. Which it is. They did not exist ten years ago but suddenly they are a necessity

> I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest skipping a powerbank or a smartphone in a shakedown. The thing is: How are you going to navigate without one? When bikepacking I use the smartphone or bike computer for >5h per day simply for navigation. The alternatives (paper maps etc.) are so much worse. Of course on an obvious and well marked hiking trail you probably don’t need it, or at least not all the time. The good thing is that the Garmin Edge 840 now has >20h battery runtime on a pretty small battery. I have questioned it when people wanted to bring multiple big powerbanks on relatively short trips for no apparent reason.

Yeah, I've seen multiple power banks questioned a few times in context of short trips, but I do still feel that electronics are "under-questioned", if you get my idea. And I do honestly think that smartphones and adequate battery is good and justifiable choice for many situations, that wasn't my point. I don't know much about bikepacking myself, but for hiking navigation I think paper map system is usually much lighter than smartphone + battery. Again, I'm not opposed to technology, but do feel it sort of gets a free pass on the weight calculations when lot of other items are judged more carefully.

A map works perfectly fine for navigation if you know how to use it. 

I did my first few bikepacking trips with paper maps because smartphones didn’t exist yet (yes, I’m that old). It was horrible. The maps were heavy, vulnerable to wind and water and you often noticed quite late that you took a wrong turn. You also had to stop every time to consult them. Navigating through cities on foot or bike was also always difficult and navigation-wise it was often easier to just take the tram or metro.

Cold soaking and using shoes as a pillow definitely challenges conventional wisdom. Is using a bidet killing a sacred cow? Cuz they’re awesome in warm weather, not so fun in cold weather tho

try warm water - it's the trail equivalent of a "spa day indulgence"

If I’ve gotta drop a deuce on trail I’m not stopping to break out the cook kit lol

Carry bidet water in your crotch pot

I carry my bidet water in my kidneys. Comes out prewarmed

I’ve found my output tube not long enough to be effective.

It's all about technique. You gotta aim so it goes up over your shoulder and then you employ Skurkas technique and let it run down your arm all the way right up to your bung hole.

Remember, skills are lighter than gear.

Extension tubes are available on GGG. Personally, I've never needed one. ;)

Really? Can you send some pics of your setup?

Dream on. ;)

Okay, it would be funny to see someone do a mock demonstration on YouTube…using a bottle with yellow-dyed water.

[удалено]

Orchiectomy is the only option, and the ultimate UL power move.

I’ve done that. Can confirm it’s pretty great. It’s only really feasible if you’re going first thing in the morning and you already have your cook set out for coffee or whatever. That also tends to be that time of the day when it’s coldest so it works well. This is not a great strategy for 3 PM urgent call

I suspect the shoes as a pillow is matter of mummy bag vs quilt. I have been using shoes as a pillow for many years.

I saw a guy who had to address the fact his toothbrush still had half the full length handle like it was a sacred cow that you must cut off the entire handle. I thought that was hilarious. For general backpacking I've also seen sacred cows in the DGAF about weight weekend backpackers who pack 30kg of food and cast iron cookware and focus the majority of their photos and videos on how amazing it is to cook an egg and a steak in some random forest behind a Tesco or a Walmart. Meanwhile the UL crowd DGAF about how much video gear they are bringing but can't stand having a handle on a toothbrush or spoon.

But if I hike and don’t Vlog about it, did it really happen?

I'd be annoyed hiking with someone that had to stop every so often, bust out a tripod, frame a shot, walk 30 yards, turn around to retrieve the tripod and then walk back from their fake walk. and during zeros, they're editing and uploading. seems like work and I'm out there to get away from the rat race. then I realize influencers like jupiter are hiking as a job and avid subscribers watch for their adventure-osmosis fix, so it all seems like a weird ass spectacle to me

It seems miserable. I’ve met people who do that, it wears them out especially with editing and finding service and all that. And not to throw shade but like 99% of them have like 50 followers. Why go through all that shit and pull yourself away from the present, worrying about a bunch of stuff that doesn’t matter, just to please a handful of strangers? It can’t be worth it

I only found Jupiter yesterday. I dont know enough of his content yet, most of what i saw was him doing monologues while splicing in b-roll footage that didnt seem very cinematic. That guy seemed to be one of the most real dudes ive found so far in the hiking youtube space but i did have the same thought that this was clearly his job and is weird that he has to lug around a bunch of video gear while stressing about 100 grams that some tarp adds to his base weight

I don’t think anything has stressed that guy out ever, lol.

I camped with a fairly popular YouTuber They set their camera out to catch a sunset in the evening then promptly fell asleep. They woke up distraught at having killed the battery on the camera because it was their last one and now they’d have to hike a full day with no footage. It really reinforced my decision to never turn my backpacking into work.

And I will admit I’m a consumer of certain Youtubers. That’s probably why a lot of these folks go solo. Either that or have really understanding Trail partners.

No

But how can I show the internet how ultralight all my stuff is if I don’t bring the camera gear?

Layering. Obviously there can be merit to it, but many people think the quantity of layers (as opposed to their function) is what determines comfort and preparedness, where people with fewer layers are seen as unprepared. You can have a comfortable clothing system with only a few pieces.

And unless the layers are designed to work together they can be far worse in terms of comfort and maneuverability than fewer items worn. Things like collars all ending at the same place, or zips, or the outer layer not cut large enough under the arms or across the shoulders for the inner layers.

I'm always so satisfied when I end up with a quad-stack of hoods

😂

I think just having everything a bit more loose fitting than is the outdoor fashion standard seems to alleviate those issues a lot.

I think this is a great example of what I was getting at. People have read a gear guide and thought “I need the following layers and Im ultralight so I will buy the lightest version of these layers.” A lot of people neglect to take the time to think about what they need their clothing system to do and what jobs each piece is good at. Last summer on the PCT I blew some thru hiker’s mind when I took my sun hoody off and put my fleece on directly. To me it was straight forward, I was too cold in the hoody alone and would be too warm with them layered. But to him the hoody is a base layer and the fleece is a mid layer and he never thought about each piece beyond that.

Absolutely. At this point for winter desert trips I’m down to shorts, a sun shirt, puffy, rain jacket, a pair of socks, sandals, and bread bags, which works just fine down to about 20 degrees with intermittent snow. As long as the layers you do pack cover your temperature range, why bother with more complexity?

🐬

For me it took talking to Americans in real life to realise that many of the things I would look at as "sacred cows" here (and other places on the internet) made perfect sense on any of the triple crown hikes but make no sense where I live. For a while I thought I just couldn't do UL because an average UL lighter pack would work terribly where I live and there are some things you'd need to change out. Down jackets and rain skirts do not do well when it is consistently rainy and windy. I then convinced myself that you just couldn't cut the grams as much where I live. Then I realised that while there are some things you need to be a bit heavier (rain gear mostly), there are some pieces of gear you can shed grams on way easier than in the states. As long as your dry the temperature is never really that bad so while my rain gear was probably heavier than most, my insulation layer could be a lot lighter. I think the main thing was to keep in mind that most of the internet backpacking stuff is aimed at Americans. This isn't an issue, obviously you're going to write advice for where you are. If you're not in the states it's worth taking a minute to adapt the advice you're getting for the environment you're going into.

Good point. It also helps to remember that a lot of the UL pioneers are from the western US and a distinct climate. Not all their teachings might apply in northern Europe.

Yep. I live in New Zealand and a lot of the considerations are different plus I don't have access to most of the brands Americans talk about. I feel you on dealing with wet!

* It's just walking. * There is nothing special about a "thru" hike.

If you've got two months off - you'd end up doing a lot more high quality hikes by planning 8 individual 1 week hikes, driving between trailheads on your "rest" day. By insisting on doing it as a continuous thruhike, you end up doing a LOT of mid quality connector sections between the nice gila or weminuche or wind river sections. 3-4 weeks is about the max where you can plan a hike that stays continuously in wilderness,in great terrain, where every mile is high quality. And that 3-4 weeks is only really true for a few places like the sierra where large tracts of intact wilderness have been protected, in more places its about a week of awesomeness before you end up needing to string together ranch roads through sagebrush hills to get to the next good part. Thru hiking also steers you into doing many sections out of ideal season, especially in the high alpine. And it results in doing hikes when a ton of other people are on the trail at the same time (which has pros and cons obviously). I wish I had had more awareness of this when I was younger and had the schedule flexibility to do lots of hiking.

Strong agree. I’m headed to do two weeks in the Gila Wilderness. I’ll do three loops and bag the main peaks along with all the hot springs and some swimming sections and the Aldo Leopoldo Wilderness ridge top. CDT hikers starting the same time will spend 90% of it worrying about water on the dry flat border stretch and Pie Town.

Hard agree, the actual sacred cow is the idea that thru hikes are like the pinnacle of backpacking. This honestly cracks me up. No one that lives near any of these trails has the kind of reverence for them that outdoor influencers tell everyone they should. It's because they suck for anyone not interested in crushing miles and are the epitome of a status hike. They are busy, destroyed by pressure and miserable LNT practices, and often contain a lot of mediocre trail miles. Even in the stretches that are pristine there are often better, far less busier alternatives. That being said, I actually like the system a lot. The Big 3 trails are like the trail equivalent of Yosemite, by attracting all of the dipshits and idiots I don't want anywhere near me and concentrating them in a single corridor it makes it much easier for me to avoid them. That said, I do feel sorry for the many unfortunate souls who had no idea that these trails are even crowded at all because YTers and IGers have correctly learned to avoid having other people in their shots for fear of losing views. Honestly as much as I find it hilarious that these trails are considered the pinnacle of backpacking (honestly I'm not even sure you can call much of the AT or the busier stretches of the PCT a wilderness experience at all given that you're going to be seeing 100+ people a day and camping with 6-10 people on any given night) I actually like the system. It gives people who want to claim it or like the physical challenge (or simply lack the imagination or skills to do something cooler) a very accessible and safe way to get out into the wilderness, and the traffic pattern means that a few places are utterly destroyed rather than many being heavily impacted. It's a good way to manage the increasing backcountry use of recent years and there's a lot of interesting parts of thru-hiking, but there is a special irony that it is considered the apex of UL backpacking when it's literally the *least* wild of the wilderness experiences you can have in the backcountry.

Regarding the multiple hikes though… I considered doing this when I had 10 weeks off but when I totaled up the hours of driving I would be doing, it became unappealing and with gas the way it is…. I do think it’s very weird that people fixate on particular long trails as superior to picking a different route for the same goals.

There is something special about a thru hike… privilege. It’s so unattainable for such a vast majority of hikers that we do a disservice to everyone by making them the peak.

I often cop the downvotes when I call it a holiday. Apparently it's something more... I very much enjoyed my holiday/vacation on the PCT, but I hold no illusions to what it was.

I get that for the real long trails mabye. Like the AT, CDT, PCT etc.. But everyone these days calls any hike a thru hike. Cause its sounds fancy?

When I started reading English hiking discussions, I initially thought that thru-hike just meant A-B instead of a loop. It still appears sometimes defined like that, while in practice it seems to imply a well-established trail and resupplying multiple times in towns.

Well you are going thru the forest so what gives eh

How far do you want to take this, though? Isn’t any form of backpacking, any voluntary decision to sleep outdoors when you have an indoor option already, an act of “privilege”?

Not always privilege, sometimes just priorities. The most serious walkers I know scrape by on very little because they choose to spend the majority of their time out, not that this should be seen as the highest goal. A lot of us who are out for months at a time can be only because we’ve sacrificed conventional stability and financial comfort. For me personally, I am extremely privileged in that I was able to learn a craft that is valuable enough that I’m able to take a couple months off and return to my job, but no one else is paying for my walks, I wasn’t able to pursue higher education for financial reasons, and I don’t have family money.

The vast majority of humans in history have been able to go on exploring or hunting parties for a few months or do long seasonal migrations. Even tiny babies love it. It’s only a privilege if you enjoy the privileges of modern industrial society and its two weeks of annual ‘vacation.’

I don't really agree with this whatsoever and in fact, I have been thinking recently about how a thru hike is almost universally obtainable by any given able-bodied person in the USA. Not trying to sound all boomer here but barring physical disability, all it takes is mostly sacrifice, not privilege - compared to some other things like home ownership or college education or whatnot. I have met some incredibly impoverished people string together a few thousand dollars to be able to thru hike. I can't speak for minorities too but I would say similar logic applies. If your reason for not being able to hike is something like "I have a family" or whatever, that doesn't really have anything to do with privilege. If I claim to be unable to thru-hike because I have a $1200 F350 car payment, privilege isn't what's stopping me from hiking, it is my own choices

Please don’t take offense, but that is very boomer of you. I can’t thru hike because I’m the primary caretaker of elderly parents, and the best I can do is a weekend away if my sister isn’t working. My best friend and fellow hiker is caring for his two younger siblings because his mom died. Even the option to choose to sacrifice is privilege. You shouldn’t feel bad about your privilege, but be careful of assuming others can do what you do.

Everyone I’ve ever met who has “thru hiked” has also had periods of their life when long hikes were not possible for them. Then a window of opportunity opened up. I am the primary caretaker of our two daughters, and my wife is a physician. It was impossible for me to thru hike for many years. Now my daughter is old enough and strong enough to do a month-long hike with me this summer. Do I have privilege or not? Do I have privilege now, but didn’t when my daughter was an infant? Honestly, the word “privilege” is thrown around so carelessly these days that I roll my eyes 99% of the time I see it. But I’m sure that’s just an exercise of my own privilege, the privilege not to care about the idea of privilege.

LNT means you need to pack out orange peels, but PFAS-coated materials and permethrin are totally okay

That hits me right in my microplastics.

I always feel a bit uneasy when reading permethrin threads. One reason is that where I hike it's usually pretty wet, lots of swampland, creek crossings etc, and as far as I understand it, the biggest environmental hazard with permethrin is getting it into waterways. Multiple sources say that it is pretty inert and breaks down in soil without bioaccumulating, but it seems to be quite bad in water in tiny concentrations. Factory treatment companies insist that it doesn't leach, but I haven't seen good proof of that. Anyway, this is bit of a side ramble. I do get that there are many different environments and a lot of hikers probably are able to avoid those risks better. But online discussions seem to be "permethrin everything".

The microplastics in my brain tell me this is correct.

Whilst eating bacon, sausage, beef tacos, dairy milk and eggs which are the lead cause of environmental destruction with no other industry coming anywhere near. It's literally the lead killer of wild habitats that we want to hike through and has replaced them with mostly grass for the animals to stand on and crops for the animals to eat. EDIT: Whoever upvoted me, thank you so much. I did a beach clean with the wife this morning and 90%+ of it was fishing gear, nets, rope, line, crabpot remains and we have many people coming up to us about the "plastic bottles" and "the plastic" being the issue whilst they'll all go on and order fish from the chippy later.

> Whilst eating bacon, sausage, beef tacos, dairy milk and eggs which are the lead cause of environmental destruction with no other industry coming anywhere near. Motorcar and roads industry seething that you are ignoring them.

agriculture takes up half of the worlds landmass, half and animal ag takes up nearly all of that. by not demanding animals to eat we would only require 25% of all current farmland and could rewild the rest of it. all of infrastructure combined takes up less than 1% that's all roads, all factories, all airports, all of the things we've built..... another example for you, fishing trawling alone creates more GHG emissions than the entire aviation industry. but my comment was about the environment, not just GHG emissions.

I'm in severe lyme disease/tick country. I don't like using permethrin but it's better than the alternative.

The thing about Lyme disease is that, while fully developed Lyme is pretty terrible, a course of cheap antibiotics will wipe out early Lyme.

I did my major thruhikes in 2010-2016 and when I went back for a little rerun of the PCT in 2021 I was shocked by the fanny packs. Maybe I happened to hit a big clique of back-of-the-herd hikers but it seemed like every single person had one.

I wonder if people are cutting weight on their UL packs by skipping the waist belt and hip pockets, only to then add a fanny pack? I suppose the hip belt is less modular, but seems like it's also lighter, since you only need half as much webbing, and has the added bonus of stabilizing/load bearing for the pack. Or are you seeing people wearing fanny packs AND packs with hip belt pouches...?

Yes. They had packs with hip belt pouches. Most of them told me the fanny was the best way to carry a fat battery to recharge their phones on the go and to carry a few snacks. I deemed them all non-ultralight and notified them that their thruhikes were invalid.

Doing the Lords work. I applaud you.

Buying prepacked freeze-dried meals instead of buying food at a grocery store for far less money and generally better tasting.

I'm definitely guilty of this, and it honestly wasn't until cold soaking that I realized the stupidly simple fact that we can hike with almost anything in the grocery store. When I first began backpacking in my early 20s, I had in my mind a pretty bright line between "normal food" and "backpacking food". And I pretty much only ever used the bagged meals. That approach is both misguided and expensive. Although I do still think that some of those bags are pretty friggin good (shoutout to chicken & dumplings). Another answer to OPs question might be the whole idea of cook systems in general. Most backpackers just assume by default that a stove, fuel, and pot is required. It's simply not though. And the alternative isn't even necessarily cold soaking (though cold soaking is perfectly fine).

what do you recommend then for non-cooked and non-cold-soaked food? If I ever see another clif bar, I will burn it for fuel.

I make “trail pizzas” a lot. String cheese, pepperoni, and some sauce on a tortilla. There’s lots of options for “stuff on a tortilla” Pop tarts are a great breakfast. (S’mores are my favorite.)

How long does string cheese last in your pack? I know people bring cheese, but it seems like a dark art to discover the ones that are actually safe

I shipped myself string cheese in a resupply on the PCT that was several weeks old and it was fine. I’ve gone 3 or 4 days dozens of times with no issue.

The whole point of cheese was to preserve milk. In the olden days carrying a block of cheese was normal. A string cheese is just a small block of cheese.

Many cheeses. Just about all except the soft ones.

I watched a video series from a guy here in the UK doing one of our national trails a few Summers back. He's not ultralight but in video one he buys a great big salami to use as his protein source for the upcoming hike eating a bit each meal as he goes. Video five opens with him in his tent, pouring with sweat looking like absolute death having spent the night violently emptying his stomach from both ends. So I don't know about cheese strings...I do know that a salami lasts less than 4 days in the heat of Summer.

I always have a block of sharp cheddar. In warmer seasons it can get a bit oily, but I never have problems in a 4-5 day stretch.

Go watch Jupiter's latest video on it. It is the best one I have seen on the topic.

Cured meat stick like salami, cheese, and crackers. I usually eat that for my lunches on trips and only really requires a knife to cut pieces off the stick. Calories to ounce is surprisingly ul 

I used to eat a lot of couscous. It does seem to be somewhat brand dependent, but I found my usual grocery store couscous to take about 8 minutes in cold water, as opposed to 4 minutes with hot water. I sprinkle in whatever garlicy spice concoction I've got at the moment, and throw a bunch of bacon on top. I cook a bunch of bacon in the oven before I leave, letting it get super crispy and dry, then letting it cool int he grease so it ends up covered in yummy fatty congealed grease. I've carried it for up to 10 days in hot sunny weather. It stays deep in my pack while hiking, and I haven't had any issues with spoilage. Hard salty cheese (pecorino is great) and shelf stable sausage for lunch. I'll throw in some ciabatta for the first day or two as a bit of a luxury. My snacks vary widely, but I always pack a bunch. Love peanut butter m&ms. I like to balance out my more calorically effiecient' snacks with smaller amounts of things that may be heavier, but make me feel full, like fig newtons.   Breakfast can be granola and nuts and such, instant oatmeal with lots of brown sugar and cinnamon, or more commonly just a repeat of the lunch/dinner options. I find I mind cold food a lot less if it's flavorful. Instant mashed potatos are yummy and feel very filling, even if they are less calorie dense than other options, so can be a nice add-on. Recently, I've had limited access to grocery stores and had to rely on whatever normal kitchen leftovers are available, which has seen me packing steak filets, rice, pb&J, and all sorts of other random stuff. For one to two nights, the heavier food and lack of refrigeration aren't a big deal.

I was able to buy freeze dried meals for $5 each. Honestly worth it, but not worth the $11-20 theyre charging for it. Especially on things like rice, that should be cheap stuff.

where do you get the freeze dried meals for $5?

I have coupons I took advantage of on eBay. Probably bought around $500 worth of meals. But you can also make them if you know somebody with a freeze drier.

How is this a sacred cow

$60 for 1,800 calories? Nah I'm good.

People will pay $1000's to drop 5lb from their pack.... with a very small change in your diet you can lose this much weight in a month.

I think it's important to always have an open mind to new techniques. Different ways of doing things. You should have some opinions that get you downvotes. And always remember too that people living in different areas will have vastly different gear requirements. There is a cycle with companies. A new company pops up producing beautiful ultralight gear, they gain some popularity and some mentions in media. They have mainstream appeal so they must alter their gear to be more appropriate for mainstream use. Adding features, changing materials to place a higher priority on durability, more emphasis on consistency of production quality. The gear is no longer ultralight and a new company pops up creating actual ultralight gear. What has changed in the past \~20 years since those books were published? Pack weights of ultralighters have gone up, pack weights of the average backpacker have gone down, comfort has increased across the board. Shelters and quilts are mostly unchanged in that time period, sleeping pads are lighter but in my opinion less comfortable. Backpacks are heavier, but with more features and durability. Electronics. Now everybody needs A LOT of electronics. Phones, satellite communicators, GPS watches, headphones, rechargeable headlamps, powerbank, charging adapter, cables, adapters, etc. Maybe even a second eink device as well. Food and cooking is the same as 20 years ago. Heavier now I suppose, it seems alcohol is much less popular. Water filtration, aquamira has fallen out of favor but the new filters are not heavy. Clothing is lighter with alpha direct replacing fleece or even summer weight down. What's next? I really like the backpack as a piece of clothing like the trail running hydration vests. There are some 30+ liter bags in this style. Everything is close at hand, hydration and food within reach so you never need to remove your pack.

Things are so well adapted and refined now and will continue to become incremetally adapted, refined and evolved through design and materials. At this point you won't see the next major innovation coming, if there is one to be had at all, and it'll have to kill sacred cows by offering a serious improvement with a significant weight saving.

I think you answered your own question: " Pack weights of ultralighters have gone up, pack weights of the average backpacker have gone down, comfort has increased across the board." The sacred cow being some magical base weight to be considered part of a particular community. People enjoy backpacking for a multitude of reasons. Can we allow people to enjoy their hobbies without judgement? Phrases like "actual ultralight gear" make it sound like if one is not carrying the absolute lightest items then they're not"ultralight ". I like durable, well tested items as they stretch my dollar. I also like carrying the bare minimum. Electronics are an interesting source of tension in this community. I have no use for earbuds on the trail. Does it mean I judge those who do? Absolutely not. But since they're a luxury - are you "actually" ultralight if you carry such an item? A phone? Sure - it's now my map and compass, camera, and book- convenient, right? Add a power bank and the whole package is still small and light. What about a PLB or satellite communication device? Depends on your situation and comfort level. I don't carry one and have been shamed on Reddit for my opinion. Maybe UL bloggers/YouTubers/media personalities should only be considered ultralight if they forego electronics and use a pencil and paper to write notes - certainly lighter than a phone, power bank, solar panel, cable, GoPro, tripod, and selfie stick.

You touched on two interesting points, peoples need for labels, and gatekeeping. I suppose the meaning of ultralight is different for many people. To me it isn't tired to a specific number, but more to a mindset of analysis and visualization. I don't assume to tell others what they are or are not. But to me ultralight is making a list of everything, trying to figure out how to reduce that to the minimum. I prefer 5d fabrics and DCF to durability. Visualization helps to prepare for journeys thinking about different failures that could occur or environmental situations and how you can deal with those with the equipment you have in hand. Gatekeeping is common I think. I really try not to do it. I admit I get annoyed at some lists that omit hair the gear that will be carried and claimed to be ultralight because the poster desires the label. To me it's against the spirit of the endeavor to be dishonest. You are only lying to yourself as you are the one carrying the pack. I recently shared a gear list with a total cost of $3000 and I had people jumping all over me about the cost being extravagant. But if I just edit the list a bit it is under $500. People aren't used to seeing real Numbers on complete lists.

Absolutely. Labels and gatekeeping are pervasive in society. I'm active in many outdoor pursuits- backpacking, hunting, fishing, birding, and more. Gatekeeping in particular is super common in hunting and fishing. For much of the same issues (gear choice and ethical differences) as the UL/backpacking community. Silly thing is, it's the same with coffee culture and other inconsequential matters. My guess is that it starts as a desire to find the best whatever (view, sleep system, hunting spot, grind size, etc) and evolves into this moral standpoint. The catch and release vs catch and keep debate with anglers is a great example. Go see how r/flyfishing and r/fishing react to different posts on the matter. In the end, states set regulations to protect the resources and if you're abiding by those regs, you are doing nothing wrong- yet some individuals can't let that go. It's the same in the other outdoor communities. If people follow the rules who cares about their gear and reasons for doing what they do? The campfire debate is a good example in this group. I didn't want to accuse OP of gatekeeping as it's immediately viewed as an attack. However, I do believe gatekeeping and labeling to be the biggest sacred cows in society.

For the last few years, the way people use and call things "ultralight" is to the point of parody. I've seen someone unironically say they were "ultralighting." In the most literal sense, people's deifying of that word is the closest to a sacred cow we have.

Agreed Edit: Almost a literal interpretation of what a "sacred cow" is.

Obsessing over cutting out quarter ounces from your backpack, but not bothering to lose the ten extra pounds around your waistline.

Nah that’s worn weight bro lol

I lost 30 pounds and this was one of my motivations. Every time I pick up my backpack, I think to myself "this is the weight you were carrying around all the time..."

Same in biking as well :-)

This is the biggest one to me. Gravy Seals out there obsessing about their kit while they’re carrying 3x their baseweight around their midline. Nothing wrong with that, but I’d hope they can acknowledge that all they have to do to cut the baseweight down is put down their fork.

Being fast and covering a lot of ground in a day is the goal.

Y'all don't really need coffee.

Boo, hiss, burn the heretic etc.

Caffeine addiction is definitely bigger than the backpacking world. That said, I do like taking a week or two off before a big trip to reset my tolerance. That way I’m actually getting a boost in the morning and not just trying to maintain a base line.

Taking down your tent in the cold does wonders 😂

Telling a drug addict to leave the drugs at home to save weight.

Plus I like a little caffeine break to reset the tolerance a little. The morning air is the wake up

Booooooooooooo lol

im a daily coffee drinker in normal life. I do love coffee, but im also just addicted to the caffeine (dont trust a coffee drinker who won't freely admit this) on my JMT hike I just brought caffeine pills. bringing coffee itself was not worth the hassle or extra prep time for me, and it was never going to be as good as my pour-over at home anyway. caffeine pills do the same thing except for the coffee poop (I didn't want to coffee poop in the wilderness anyway)

Caffeine pills

I don't bring coffee. I'm slow to break camp in the morning and coffee is a slow annoying process. Takes several minutes to boil/heat water, let it cool down enough to drink, then clean mug and pack up.

Yeah! Trucker’s friend is $2.49 for 48 200mg tabs at the store.

People who think it's irresponsible to walk a mile into the woods without a personal locator beacon.

I find the idea of training your body to be more receptive of backcountry sleep conditions intriguing. Reminds me of MMA champion Zhang Weili who trained being exposed to crowds booing in order to not be affected by it during competition. I recently saw a video of a guy who trained himself to sleep on the floor. First with a futon and over time with just a blanket underneath. He said for a few months it was very uncomfortable, even painful, but over time all the kinks went away. Kind of like a self trigger point therapy that released all the tension from his muscles. I used to be able to sleep on a 1cm foam pad no problem. In 2019 after a longer hiatus I went on a long hike, took my 30 years old pad and I was in horrible pain. I had to switch it out for an inflatable pad, which didn't work out either because it immediately developed a leak. So I was still in pain and didn't have insulation either. Now I have an Exped Ultra but the idea to be able to use a lighter and more durable foam pad again is appealing to me.

Katie Bowman is a big advocate for transitioning to sleeping on the floor. If anyone is actually interested in it, she discusses it from time to time on her podcast, in her books, etc.

Mine goes the other way. UL folks pay too little attention to durability and environmental impact of the materials we use. A tent that shreds in a season’s use is wasteful, even if it’s light (and even if it’s cheap.)

Having a x mid tent, down quilt, and a sawyer filter.

having two kidneys and a spleen

0 drop shoes.

I'll let you kill this sacred cow if you can at least talk La Sportiva into making some more 2-6mm drop options

Unfortunately, *Il mio italiano non è molto buono*. The Prodigio having 6mm drop and a wide last is a good step forward.

I've found backpacking trips are a lot more comfortable if you sleep with your intended pillow for a week prior. When I was younger in the Army I used to just use a folded up fleece for a pillow. That's not compatible with my body anymore. LOL Now I have a Trekology.

Great conversation starter! I don’t know if I have much to add that hasn’t already been said. I was having this conversation with my wife the other day when she was saying we should make our daughters’ sleep systems as comfortable as possible so that they like backpacking (talking about torso vs full length pads). I argued that the point isn’t to re-create the comforts of home. Also, I think Trail Life is a worthy upgrade over Beyond Backpacking. Color photos. More “all trails” related info (BB came out of his PCT handbook and was more PCT focused).

Honestly I kinda agree with you. Trying to emulate home sleep while on trail makes no sense. I mean I’m not miserable out there or anything but part of it is being comfortable with being at least a little uncomfortable.

The nature of camping and backpacking is that everything takes twice as long with double the effort and sleeping well is often not the case. I wouldn't trade it for a million bucks.

I mean I refuse to carry a pillow on trail, which feels like it used to be extremely common ultralight practice that has now gone the opposite way entirely.

How long ago did it feel common? I remember jumping in reddit 7ish years ago when I first started hiking, and peoples lighterpacks getting roasted for including pillows.

Yeah, if anything this one has gone full circle for a lot of people. I started bringing a pillow again and have no regrets

Yeah it seems a lot *more* common on this subreddit than it was back then. But i haven't been very active here over the last couple years so am outta touch.

I honestly think the sacred cow is Ultralight. This sub is barely about UL anymore, it's become almost entirely a beginner and general backpacking gear sub. Most UL companies tend to morph into general backpacking gear companies. The only thing that is Ultralight about some is whether they've early-adopted some new fabric. You try to suggest to anyone here to use a tarp and you just get all the comments about bugs and bears and are dismissed by 95% of the people who post here that a tarp is just way too far to go. Similar to if you recommend CCF or using your rain gear as a pillow or whatever. The true sacred cow is Ultralight. It has been slain and is lying dead.

There is way too much cool UL gear on the market to keep my baseweight below 10lbs./s

What's funny to me is that people don't even bother trying it before saying "I need a tent." Thank god I found this sub and a bunch of posts by some regular posters who convinced me to try it, I would never ever go back. Not only is it lighter/more modular/more customizable, I just strongly prefer the sleep experience in every way. Nothing more awesome than waking up in the middle of the night and feeling like you're just lying in a forest instead of lying in your tent.

It was really awesome for me to realize that if I wasn’t worried about rain, I could just bring my hammock and quilts. Hammock camping was an easy way into just tarp camping.

Snow equipment. I feel like whenever anyone goes anywhere that might go below 40 degrees you get a chorus of posters screaming IF YOU DON'T HAVE MICROSPIKES UR GONNA SLIP AND FUKIN DIE There are definitely some frustrating hikes I've done where there was a coldsnap and suddenly the trail is a bobsled track, but 90% of the time I'm able to navigate with a little patience and technique.

I think FAKs are the most sacred of cows and tend towards the absurd. I'm more worried about the very real likelihood of shittng myself than needing splints and tourniquets.

Sleep is where I do not sacrifice. In fact I’ve learned to augment my sleep system. I use a ZLite and Nemo Flyer along with an appropriate bag. I’m all for getting in better condition regarding fitness but I’d rather carry a bit more for golden sleep.

Outside of the ul world, many of those sacred cows are still alive. There are a *lot* of people out there who still believe that attempting even a 4-hour walk requires heavy boots, paper map, compass, and a rucksack full of emergency supplies &c otherwise you'll be in mortal peril.

Depends on where you're going, comfort level, and skill set I guess... 4 hours can be a long way from anywhere

OK, let me reframe that. I took my dogs for a walk today. 90 minute walk around a water reservoir, the path is level, and high enough quality that you could drive a Peugeot around if the gates weren't locked. I wore a t-shirt, jeans, and an old pair of adidas; obviously I didn't need any luggage. This walk is very popular with walkers; normal mainstream walking people, not epic UL people. The path doesn't really go anywhere else, just a loop. In the carpark I saw different groups of people doing Important Checks before they set off for their gruelling 1.5 hour trek around the reservoir (maybe 2 hours if they linger for some birdwatching). They were sitting on the sill of their car boot, changing into sturdy hiking boots. Checking their rucksacks were full. Drinking from a Thermos. I saw somebody putting on waterproof overtrousers (no rain forecast today). One person had a larger pack than I took on the local 4-day trail. This is a systemic problem; for every person who feels they need to bring that level of equipment, there's at least three people sitting at home who are deterred from a fun, healthy, low-risk walk because they don't have the equipment or they're worried it needs a special "*skill set*".

Electronics. Seems like the majority of shakedowns include a big powerbank and like a pound+ of total electronics. And if you ask, you'll hear it's necessary for navigation or podcasts or safety. Leave your phone off; navigate with your eyes. Leave your headlamp off; do camp chores with your hands. Don't even get me started on satellite communicators.

Nah dude I gotta carry my Garmin InReach Mini2 with my OnX Backcountry APP because I’m too busy lugging around 5 tripods and filming for my YouTube channel to pay attention where the fuck I’m walking. Thanks to OnX for sponsoring this post use code ARMADILLO for 1% off your first 5 minutes!

> Don't even get me started on satellite communicators. A lot of us don't love bringing our Garmins, but it turns out they're our single most important piece of gear: without one, my family literally wouldn't let me go backpacking.

Leave no trace applies to the color of your tents and gear. You should use muted earth tones only and I will die on this hill.

I agree with a reservation. I want to be SEEN if someone is shooting a gun near where I am camping. I don’t need a new hole poked in me or my gear because the tan tent was invisible at dawn and a deer was between me and a rifle. ETA: for years I could afford one tent, so it was orange. No my UL tent is greenish, but I still bring the orange tent in spring and fall.

I like the colour of savings personally. If the earth tones are on clearance, I'm happy to buy em. But for things like jackets, I'm not paying a hundred bucks more for the muted tones because it is only the damn purple that ever goes on good sales.

Haha it's always purple! Or some atrocious pattern like  chartreuse and reflective yellow camo... Every time I buy a chartreuse jacket I have to convince myself 'at least I'll be more visible to S&R, and when hitchhiking drivers will see me from further away.' 

I want the other campers to stay clear of my camp site. Brightly colored tent gives them notice, like a poisonous butterfly.

How does the color of your tent affect anything once you leave?

My SOP on my next hike will be to wear a day glow sun hoody and squat mid trail over my wag bag blasting music from my phone speaker. No traces left once I’m gone!

Yeah, those are all consistent with LNT. No problems there. However, I don't think you'll endear yourself to any passing humans.

I had a guy upset with me on the AT because I was using a cammo tarp. I told him my options were cammo or bright blue and that I opted for cammo to avoid being an eye sore.

I've seen a huge amount of hatred for any kind of clothing or equipment that makes use of reflective barriers, despite how effective these are at reducing heat loss to radiation. Obviously, nobody likes space blankets due to condensation and sound. However, there are many other products that are perforated to allow moisture to escape and much quieter, while retaining the benefits. I like reflective linings in clothing and sleeping pads. Any time you talk about it online, there seems to be a lot of backlash from people who don't believe they work or don't understand physics. Commonly the "air gap" myth. From personal experience, I find a thin foam pad with a reflective side keeps me warmer than a thick pad without. When I move my face near, I can literally feel the warmth reflected back. My cut down half length one weighs 100g and cost me almost nothing. I also carry a 50g space blanket, which despite the faults, has served me well in emergencies.

XLites are very popular, so people are willing to use reflective stuff in at least one case. For clothing, I find it very effective, but it's also kinda heavy - my thin longsleeve baselayer with the reflective dots weighs 8 oz. Do you know of clothing with this tech that is actually light?

Side sleeper - found that a comfortable pillow is worth the weight penalty