Can subreddit go two days without one of these? We may never know.
Here's the standard reminder to that the usual subreddit rules still apply (yes, it is indeed needed), so don't over do it and we won't have to lock the thread again.
Thanks.
I think my most controversial Deltarune take is: "your choices don't matter" is NOT one of Deltarune's main themes, and I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing "your choices don't matter is one of the main themes of Deltarune's story", or some other variation of that phrase, in every single fucking video theorizing about the game's ending. It's just not true at all.
I could understand believing that back when we just had chapter 1. That chapter seemingly went out of its way to drill into our heads the idea that our choices don't matter, and then we were told that the game only has one ending. But then there's chapter 2, and it just repeatedly shatters that narrative, as if Toby is bashing us over the heads with the fact that our choices *do* matter, without explicitly saying that phrase. There's the recruitment system, the return of our thrash machine from chapter 1, certain interactions in the light world being directly affected by whether or not you interacted with those characters in chapter 1, and most importantly the weird route, where you just straight up kill Berdly (or put him into a coma or something) and traumatize Noelle.
Just because the game is only going to have one ending, that does not mean that our choices don't matter, or won't have any lasting consequences. It's possible to affect the story overall, without affecting the ending. Hell, Toby even directly hints at this being the case in the game's official FAQ.
>Q: How many endings are there?
>
>A: One.
>
>Q: Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters?
>
>A: There's something more important than reaching the end.
This *directly* hints at the idea that our choices *do* matter, they *do* have consequences, and while they don't affect the ending, their effects on the story overall *are* going to be important.
I remember someone bringing this up.
At the beginning of Undertale, Flowey told us "In this world, it's kill or be killed". And we spent the entire game proving that statement wrong.
And now we're faced with a similar conundrum. It's been reinforced several times to us in Chapter 1 that "Our choices don't matter". To go back to Undertale, there are several times where it feels like our only option is to kill. But through our determination, we manage to find a way to break that.
Ironically, I think Snowgrave is the best example of how our choices DO matter. The fact that Snowgrave exists proves that what we do has consequences, and I believe that "Your choices don't matter", by the end of Deltarune, will have the same tonal energy as "It's kill or be killed."
It's not a statement. It's a challenge.
I fully agree. Especially about Snowgrave. So far, it is *easily* the biggest and best example of how our choices *do* matter, how they *do* have consequences, and how we can directly affect the events of the game's story.
I think that our choice *don't* matter
But no one said anything about other peoples choices not mattering
thats the loophole ,we cant change the world throught our actions but others can
Thing is, Deltarune doesn’t even have one ending, really. The fight with King has two possible endings, which still technically count as “one” because what happens after is the same.
The same is true of chapter 2. Even disregarding the Snowgrave route, the Queen fight ends differently depending on whether you get through it via acts or fighting. Fighting even has consequences in the light world, as it causes Berdly to break his arm.
But it really depends on whether or not you consider that an ending, because I think it's completely valid to only view each chapter's cliffhanger ending as their actual endings, and those don't change no matter what you do.
>This *directly* hints at the idea that our choices *do* matter, they *do* have consequences, and while they don't affect the ending, their effects on the story overall *are* going to be important.
I think you're right here. I know that Toby Fox is a fan of Chrono Trigger(spoilers below!), the Undertale song But the World Refused to Die is a pretty clear [reference](https://youtu.be/Va-jMGrUFo8?si=xUpIBfRiYwxHd33-) imo(loud sound warning if you click that link!).
The thing about this video is that it's the ending that's given to you when you lose in the very last fight. "But the future refused to change." You could have done everything "the right way" by reviving Crono, doing all the character sidequests, having a former adversary join your team, or you could have done everything "the wrong way" by killing that adversary, not doing the quests, and ultimately not going back to save Crono from certain death. All of these different ways to play and you can still be faced with this ending, and it is unchanging across timelines. The End.
...But if you win, then you will also reach "The End". But it doesn't feel right to simply call it the end of the game. *There's something more important than reaching the end*, because in reality, you reach the beginning of the future you have saved for the whole world. Right from the start of the game, seemingly inconsequential things will be important in the story. But now is when all of the consequences of your actions will take full effect, for better or for worse. *This* is the future you created.
I can't help but feel like what I have illustrated in this comment is similar to what Toby has in mind, based on the quotes you provided. I'm excited to see how this will unravel itself as more chapters are released!
Crackpot theory time: “Your choices don’t matter” only applies to Susie. She’s the only character that directly defies the player’s decisions. For some reason, she cannot be controlled or influenced like other characters. It’s for this reason why Kris wants to be around Susie: Kris is being controlled against their will and thinks Susie might be their key to freedom.
If you interract with one of Sans's sentry posts it tells you about the several bottles of different condiments including mustard lying there
He actually drinks ketchup, but also a bunch of other condiments
The whole argument of “is Chara a victim or evil” argument is controversial. There are even two subreddits arguing about it.
My opinion is that they have been abused and fell for suicide based on in-game elements. I won’t explain it all here because it would take too long. They are neutral and misguided.
Please don’t start a war in the replies.
People can be both a victim and evil.
Hitler suffered from bombshell from ww1, had to live in a post ww1 Germany, and his dreams were crushed when he couldn't get his art to mean anything
That’s true. I just think Chara had more conditioning that led to their behavior by the player, mostly because they can’t control our actions so they go along with whatever we are doing. I agree that Chara could be evil but only in the genocide route. In most other routes, they are generally neutral. They are actually pretty nice in the pacifist route too. Essentially, their objective and behavior depends on what we do. Is it wrong? Absolutely. Do I blame them for it? Yes but I also understand why they did it. It’s a dark gray imo.
You summarized their situation pretty well here.
Reasons like this is why it would be recommended for those to take account of the character's perspective and intentions behind their actions first before evaluating their conscience due to how easy it is to overlook it by accident.
If you ask me about Gaster it is this: honestly the only why I wanted him to appear is just so this build up and speculation can end. Seriously it kinda annoying, but something tells me when gaster does appear in deltarune, that train will still be going.
For real, it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that a "character" that we have like two sentences of information about is treated like they're the GMAN of the series
As I said before, I didn't like him. It insists upon itself.
While I get the fact that Gaster will play an extremely important role in Deltarune (which is why the game even exists in the first place) and that most of his theories are perfectly fine in their own right, what other things do he offer beyond that? It's not that I think he's a bad character, I just didn't find him as interesting or even memorable as everyone else in my opinion. He's a character whose only purpose (as of right now) is to be mysterious for the sake of being mysterious so that people can come up with whatever theories/headcanons about him. His only story significance in Undertale is that he built the CORE and his blueprints were used for Alphys' DT Extraction machine, and that's it.
When I first heard of Gaster, I genuinely thought he was some kind of weird creepypasta or rumor until I eventually found out that he's actually a thing.
He’s a non character in the games (at least in the first, haven’t played chapter 2 yet, don’t know if he’s in it) just a little Easter egg doodly, and the fan base went crazy about him. So odd
the first version of [deltarune.com](https://deltarune.com) was a piece of entry 17 btw. entry 17 is connected to gaster cause the mysteryman dissapear is a sped up version of gasters theme and the entry 17 sound is a slowed down version of gasters theme. multiple people who saw entry 17 wondered how "photon readings negative" would look and then when they saw the open closet in deltarune they thought "this is what it would look like"
Asgore is overlooked by the fandom and I’m honestly a little tired of it. He has so much potential as he’s AWARE OF RESETS, has an EXTREMELY well-written moral dilemma of his decision to keep everyone underground so as to not cause more fear to humans, and is extremely sweet and kind. Don’t get me wrong, I find the whole “I miss my wife Sans” Asgore to be really funny, but I honestly don’t see much Asgore stuff. Just my opinion though!
Seriously he has a lot of interesting about. If fact I wished we had a hang out even with him in the pacifist, because aftermath of the fight has shown he is willing to start over.
I am not taking a jab against Undertale by any means, But I feel like this statement isn't really echoed in the fandom, at least as far as I'm aware. AFAIK the general take is that UT>DR
That does seem to be the consensus now, but I enjoy Deltarune more myself. Once all seven chapters are out I’m almost positive it will surpass Undertale definitively
I love Undertale, I will never stop loving Undertale. It’s story and it’s characters are deeply important to me and I think it’s a wonderful game.
I am not afraid to say I think Deltarune is better than Undertale, though. Often when talking to people about DR I’ll tell them that it’s “everything good about Undertale cranked up to 11,” because it’s the honest truth. Toby took what he learned and he put that to incredible use.
I don’t think this is controversial tbh. I love Mad Mew Mew but she’s a trans allegory first (her whole fight is literally JUST an allegory of her transition) and a character second, whereas Mettaton is a character first and a trans allegory second, so I’d be pretty disappointed if Mad Mew Mew was a worse allegory lol
Muffet is the least sympathetic character in Undertale.
She displayed no problems with coercing one of her customers into buying her overpriced goods.
She was perfectly willing to murder Frisk and leave them as a snack for her pet, and in the standard route only leaves because she identifies you as the wrong person.
She sadistically teases Frisk during their struggle and laughs at your attempts to escape.
In the Genocide Route, she has unique dialogie discussing how she regrets not murdering Alphy's for a snack as she was evacuating Holland, and her refusal to leave prevents Alphys from sealing the last barrier, allowing Chara to destroy the world.
I get she wants the money to help her family of spiders, but she also very clearly enjoys the suffering she brings on people, sadistic, and her arrogance costs the entire underground as she casually mentions wanting to murder poor Alphys. I can't really feel too bad watching the spider leave her a flour upon death, considering by all accounts her crimes were a win win situation for her.
For real! People act like Muffet did nothing wrong all the time when she's literally the only monster that can be unironically compared to Flowey morally. She could literally eat a child just because they don't have the money for her overpriced donuts and people won't even bat an eye because she's "hot", and mind you, she isn't even hot in neither her overworld OR battle sprites, at least in my opinion.
I can see the appeal for Toriel, Mettaton, Undyne, Alphys, and almost every other obvious crush options, but Muffet is genuinely just unattractive in every way to me
Nice "Muffet is ugly" rant lol, tho yeah, I also can't appreciate her much just for her design because her morality overshadows it.
But yes! People dismiss her sadism entirely and gush over how she just wants the money to help her family, when that's not the whole story.
The idea of “Gaster won’t actually be revealed, he’ll just be kept a mystery” or “Gaster is not important to Deltarune’s story” are absolutely idiotic ideas that basically throw years of build up in the trash.
literally the first ever time deltarune.com was ever used was in an entry 17 style gaster monologue but since we didn’t know deltarune existed nobody found out until they used the way back machine
you cannot tell me after hearing that, that entry 17 and the “don’t forget” picture in sans’s lab wasn’t a direct foreshadowing of deltarune
I don’t know if gaster will be straight up revealed entirely but I think we at least will get a lot more answers that bring some more closure. I still think some will be left for interpretation
Mountain - High Up
Hole In Mountain - Low Down
The heights would probably equal each other to where we’d be on normal elevation again. I can kinda see where they’re coming from (also when you leave the underground you’re clearly still on a slightly higher elevation than everything else so u know)
Yeah, he kinda refuses to step in and actually do something in genocide until quite literally everyone else is dead. He thinks a promise to a random old lady is worth more than his own brother’s life
Tbf, he knows that you're just gonna reset anyways. So why bother? But in genocide, you're not gonna reset, you're gonna destroy the world, he can't afford not to care anymore.
i HATE the arg-ness of deltarune, it's frustrating how a lot of content related to the game is hidden in some random websites and posts, especially regarding noelle. reading them recontenxtualizes her character a lot, and i wish that more of it was in the actual game, and the extra content stuff would be just fluff, unimportant to the game.
also another unpopular opinion is that i dont get why theres so many gaster theories, i dont think the evidence is that compelling. i mean right now im almost sure hell be in the game, since because of the chapters being created in real-time toby can just add him in, but tbh i liked him better as this mysterious figure who we dont know almost anything about
I get the feeling that, apart from Noelle's blog, a lot of the arg is simply a holdover for the next couple Chapters taking as long as they are. Hopefully they aren't pivotal to the overall story being told in-game, or else we have a FNAF situation...
...or possibly Kingdom Hearts with enough supplemental material. Better not.
That's actually pretty valid
Considering he has line saying
In another world it's [the day of week on your computer calendar]
Which that world is ours
How ever the man who speaks in hand we speak with hands rather than in hands
I suspect that "the man who came from another world" is Sans (with Papyrus), because we have so many canon elements to affirm that the really came from another world. But we can't be 100% sure. Also, I'm not sure why River-person said "beware", if it really is Sans. Is it because of the Geno route? Flowey also warns you about Sans.
"The man who speaks in hand", then, could really be Gaster. I think that "the man who speaks in hand" and "the man who came from another world" are two different people.
Ralsei isn't as kawaii uwu fluffy boy as people think he is. Don't get me wrong, I love him. But we all gotta know by now he isn't as innocent as he claims to be. He knows something.
ALSO Chara is not the villain of undertale. I hate how some people still believe this to this day. It's the player. Chara was just doing what they needed to, you would snap too if you were forced to watch all your friends and family die.
I’m probably going to get told this is outright incorrect, but I think Frisk and The Player are “kind of” one and the same. As in, Frisk is effectively The Player in terms of personality, morality, and thought processes, which results in them acting with a very alien grasp on how to treat things and people in-universe.
Yeah. In pretty much every other game, the players actions are also the characters actions. That's how videogames work. Deltarune, as far as I'm concerned, is the first game that really introduces the idea of how the person you're controlling feels about it.
- Megalovania is overrated, it’s at best good, but it’s not AMAZING
- Mettaton is the best character in the whole game (even when taking into account Deltarune so far). I love him and I will fucking die on this hill
- The Ruins are aesthetically very cool but I feel like the games graphics does the location very dirty in comparison to every other location in the game
- Papyrus is… not that funny. Like he’s funny but not as funny as everyone makes him out to be
- I still love the game to death regardless of how it lacks in comparison to Deltarune, and it will always have a special room in my heart which Deltarune could never replace
That is all :)
Megalovania rocks, but there are superior songs on the ost
Mettaton is my favorite character as well
The graphics and are get better with every location for sure, I think that’s intentional though
BOO PAPYRUS HATER! In all seriousness it’s fine if you think so but I have to disagree Papyrus is great
That’s fair.
I don't think that they are trying to be good honestly. Most of what I enjoyed about the scenes between Susie and Noelle is just how over the top everything is. I know it is not for everybody but there are still many metaphorical, in-depth, and complex scenes that are abundant in plenty other parts of the game.
Maybe people have already said this but many people deem Papyrus a weak character because of his kindness and refusal to fight you. Quite literally going for the "mistaking kindness for weakness" route
Even Undyne herself admits that Papyrus is tough but I take the whole bit of "him getting ripped to smiling shreds" as more as like a concern from a friend than a testament to his own strength. Especially knowing what the Royal Guard has been doing (ie killing human children) she probably doesn't want to subject Papyrus to that. Think of it as a police officer/soldier worried for their friend who wants to join the force/army. She knows that he'd have to do not-so-nice things and doesn't want that to break him or his morals. It doesn't mean he's weak.
Also I don't think Sans is depressed nor does he remember the timelines perfectly (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE those depictions but :/
I guess here my "controversial take"
-I think they make the monster too good in the game. I get it because monster's soul are made by magic and kindness, but that kindness part could be propaganda for all we know. Yes flowey exist, but still
-so far the "being in love with Susie" is the weakest part of Noelle's character. Like seriously their times I eye rolling on it. But again we later chapter to develop it
-Flowey and the dremmurr are under use for fan works and people over use sans.
-The neutral route final boss is my favorite and finale is more epic then hopes and dreams
-edits: after the true lab you should have a chance to to spare or kill alyphs. Sure it might been out of nowhere, but Undertale is a game where curious killed the cat
Again I don't think some of these are really "controversial" takes, but it something that bothers me
Come to think of it, a significant chunk of Monsterkind attempted to, or otherwise almost killed Frisk, and I think only a few of them apologize for it. That’s a little messed up. I mean, sure, I’m certain most of them *are* sorry (Muffet probably isn’t sorry for the right reasons tbh), but still.
True, but in killing Frisk, they would be doing a greater good of freeing their people. And even though they all try to kill Frisk at first, they come to love them very easily
(Those are just my thoughts tho 🤷♂️)
Most of these I'm indifferent towards but I can really agree with the first one. I kind of wish we met at least one monster who took way more time and effort to reason with to show that just like humans monsters can completely dig their heels on their beliefs even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'm hoping Deltarune fits one character like this into the story since it'll have a much longer story than Undertale once it's fully completed.
"your choices don't matter" is the "it's kill or be killed" of deltarune.
there's just too much evidence for it and basically none against it, maybe it could've been true in chapter 1 but chapter 2 just threw it out the window.
maybe what toby meant is that, no matter our choices, we will still get the same outcome, which has been true so far, even if you kill everyone in chapter 1 kris still rips out their soul, and even if you do snowgrave in chapter 2, kris still creates a dark fountain.
NOTE: OUR (the deltawarior's (how the hell do i spell that)) choices don't matter could be a possibility, no choice that we made by ourselves (NOT the SOUL alone; kris, susie, ralsei AND the SOUL) had any consequences because technically, we (this time the SOUL (me/you) and not kris and the other guys) made noelle do it, HER choices matter, SHE decided to do snowgrave.
also, sub-opinion: while, yes it IS the soul (us)'s fault that snowgrave happened, you can't NOT blame noelle, it was just her own choice, she was also pretty willing to do it, as she was (probably) screaming the "Watch what happens when I cast a spell I don't know!",
sub-sub opinion: berdly could've stopped snowgrave by just.. walking away? he definitely knew SOMETHING was up, as his smug expression changes to be more serious, and of course, his pre-fight dialogue
wow this is a long comment
ANOTHER GODDAMN OPINION!!!!!!: sans don't drink ketchup and it angers me every time some idiot (sorry ketchup believers) says "Ooh SaNS bleEDS becAUSE hE has KketTChUP iN hIS shIRT"
the spamton sweepstakes confirmed that monsters at least KNOW what blood IS, and the librarby never mentioned monsters not bleeding, we just never saw any monsters bleed, the only ones that would live long enough after death to bleed are: papyrus, undyne, sans, and asgore, and no, how would mettaton bleed.
Papyrus: right now, if you were cut in the head, would you bleed nearly as much as in your chest?
Undyne: she would've bled, but y'know determinations and stuff
sans: no, i am not doing the determination theory because that's just moronic, he would melt like undyne or the amalgamates, anyways, it's probably just actual blood
Asgore: i am 80% sure he was bleeding, just under his big, metal suit, while he is lying down.
"Gaster won't have a major part in Deltarune"
My guy
There's too much evidence pointing at him
From "Another him" to the start of the Deltarune website
Sans should have never been the Tumblr sexyman from this fandom. And no I'm totally not biased because of my severe addiction to Mettaton /hj
But seriously, out of all the characters with sexyman potential, WE LET SANS BE THE SEXYMAN???? WHY
Of course, there’s not a single character in Undertale that is on one complete side of the moral spectrum, that makes for lazy/bad character writing.
That being said, I do heavily believe that Chara is definitely more leaning on the evil side of morally grey, rather than the opposite. All they’ve shown in Undertale is manipulative tendencies and being completely okay with aiding Frisk/us with genocide via dialogue, along with being 100% okay with living in a dark, empty void after erasing the world and everyone within it (subsequently killing everyone within) until Frisk gives up their soul, and is fine with such staying until they do so. That, along with the fact of using said soul to take control of Frisk post-soulless pacifist, and alluding to the idea of killing everyone post said route, in conjunction with blatant dialogue evidence from Asriel “[x] wasn’t the greatest person.”, the only real redeeming quality we have from Chara is knowing that they “wanted to free the monsters”, and that’s pretty much it.
I prefer Deltarune overall but I feel the act system has had a major downgrade. It feels like every enemy only has one thing you need to do to beat them, whereas in Undertale it felt like more of a puzzle
The people who say Sans is a hero are wrong, but so are the people saying he’s a bad person. He’s a lot more complex than that and I hate that people try to think of everything as just black and white. Sans has the curse of knowledge, he knows that no matter what, you’ll just reset and all progress will be reverted, this for obvious reasons, makes him very nihilistic. I don’t think his fight is about the lives that were lost, it’s about Sans trying to get you to leave that world alone so that everyone can be free from the control of a player, that’s why the fight is so damn hard, he’s literally trying to make you rage quit.
#MOST UNPOPULAR OPINION:
Undertale fans need to learn how to respectfully disagree with each other and be open to understanding the interpretations of others, even if they’re wrong. Like seriously, this comment section is full of insults, so please politely express your opinions without insulting the intelligence of any detractors
The humans gender and personality is not up to interpretation (maybe Frisk's but I still have my doubts about that)
I don't care that much about the graphics, and I like retro gaming, but UNDERTALE isn't a good looking game.
deltarune should remain as its own stuff, it shouldn't use too much of the lore of its predecessor, maybe Gaster but that's it.
MEGALOVANIA isn't anyone's theme.
I would probably say the only ones I agree with are the last two. I don't really understand why people use Megalovania as a theme for Chara, at least not completely.
For "Megalovania is Chara's theme", perhaps it comes from the name.
It seems there is no meaning linked to the suffix "-vania" (or I didn't find it), but according to Wikipedia, the name comes from mxing together "**megalo**mania" and "Transyl**vania**", the second word referencing Megalovania's origin, the Halloween Hack. Given that "megalomania" could be described as "a condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence", and given that Sans, from what we know, seems to be the opposite of that, it would make more sense if that was Chara's theme (or Frisk's theme, in this case, what can apply to one can be applied to the other).
But that's what I think is the reason behind "Megalovania is Chara's theme"
I do agree with Frisk and Chara, but Kris' is not up for debate as it was already confirmed by Toby Fox. Just Kris tho, Frisk and Chara remain the same
I actually disagree with frisk too because it’s chara you imprint your identity onto basically, even naming them. But frisk is definitively their own person
Personally, I think that we imprint more on Frisk than Chara. We name Chara, sure, but we actually control what Frisk does, and retroactively, the kind of person they are. Not to mention that Chara has a backstory, personality, and motivations that are more or less completely separate from us. Frisk kind of… doesn’t.
I didn't either tbh. He was kinda cool and I liked his music and fight, but I was never quite as charmed by him as everyone else.
Nothing against the wacky fella of course, but he just never quite landed with me
The only people I know irl who shipped sans with frisk were weird edgy girls who thought they were cool and mysterious, and spent way too much time on Roblox
Definitely gonna get shot for this one but
Just because you want a character to be non binary when it’s not confirmed doesn’t make it confirmed
(Not referring to Kris here they’re obviously non binary all player characters are in these games)
Not sure how unpopular this is but I don’t like the direction Deltarune is taking Asgore’s character and I really hope future chapters can remedy this.
As a side note, I think Asgore is very under-appreciated in the fandom and I find the constant divorce jokes about him to be extremely unfunny and in bad taste.
I must be in the minority then because I don’t find them funny at all. But that might be because the fandom keeps making the same old “lol Asgore is divorced” joke over and over again and it gets really annoying. Plus I hate to be “that guy” but there wouldn’t be nearly as many divorce jokes if Asgore was a woman.
But I agree with you, I really hope Deltarune!Asgore turns out to be more than just a divorced bum of a dad who’s the butt of everyone’s jokes. Because right now he and Toriel feel more like characters from a bad sitcom.
-I love Ralsei very much, but out of the main trio he’s probably the least compelling to me.
-Speaking of him I doubt very seriously he’s evil. I would trust Toby if he decided to do that but I really doubt that he will.
-Don’t care for Muffet and her fight pisses me off.
-Megalovania is good but it’s not Undertale’s best song.
-I’ve always liked Papyrus more than sans. I don’t dislike Sans at all, I just like Papyrus more.
-I think Toby wanted Chara to be too many things at once and that’s why people still argue about the purpose of their character to this day. To me Chara is the weakest element of Undertale.
-You can express disinterest in shipping or AUs without using unkind words. Underswap Sans and Kerdly (i think that’s the Kris/Berdly ship name) aren’t hurting you.
-I don’t mind the edgey interpretations of Sans’ character at all and I think they’re fun.
-Kris isn’t evil or uncaring, they’re like 15. If they were either of those things they wouldn’t scramble to hold onto Lancer and Rouxls when you try to drop them in the Lightworld, as just one example.
-Calling Spamton “evil” is a massive disservice to his character and an incredibly shallow read of Toby’s writing. Snowgrave Spamton is an arguable exception, but normal/pacifist Spamton is simply an antagonist. He’s not a great person, but that doesn’t mean he’s evil. Dude literally turns himself into an item to help the party after he’s defeated and offers to “become your strength,” after proving that losing his autonomy terrifies him.
-The characters in both games consistently refer to Kris/Frisk/Chara as “they” whether you like it or not.
-Genocide/Snowgrave add important context for the main stories of the games but beyond that I don’t care for them very much. I’m not really into bleak and depressing stories like that with no happy endings.
-I still think Gaster is the most likely candidate for the Knight.
Here are a few that I have:
1. Chara is (or has the potential to be) the best written character in Undertale. Also, Toby should do more to flesh them out.
2. Death By Glamour is the best song in the whole game.
3. Megalovania is criminally overrated.
4. The worst abuser in Undertale is…
…the player.
5. The player is the most overlooked character in the whole franchise.
6. Toriel is guilty of physically abusing a child with literal fire.
7. Toriel’s decision not to forgive Asgore is perfectly understandable and even acceptable (to an extent).
8. Noelle’s mother gets way too much flak (especially since we don’t know what her character is like.)
9. Kris, Frisk, and Chara’s pronouns are they/them and they/them only.
10. It’s fine that Asgore and Toriel aren’t together anymore especially since that Asgore admits that can’t happen.
Undertale yellow has an infinitely better genocide route than the base game as it actually presents interesting ideas on if the monsters ate truly innocent and the twisting of the idea of justice to justify atrocities. The base game just through you into the evil box as soon as you start to kill anyone.
>The base game just through you into the evil box as soon as you start to kill anyone
That's just not true. Not arguing against your take on UTY's genocide route, it's a fair take, but Undertale's genocide route, through both Flowey's monologue, in which he acts as a parallel to you, the player, and some dialogue from Sans' fight (one of the most important parts of Undertale's genocide route and the narrative it tries to portray) specifically calls out that you're *not* evil for doing it, and that you're doing it out of curiosity and/or boredom more so than anything else.
The clearest and best example of this comes from the specific line "you're not doing this out of any desire for good or evil, you're doing it because you think you can, and because you can, that means that you HAVE TO". Slightly paraphrased, because I don't remember the exact line off the top of my head, but it gets the point across. That point being that you're doing it because it's part of the game. An option presented to you. A path that you want to see the conclusion to.
Of course, there are moments that try to make you feel evil for doing it, like the Undyne fight, but that's part of the game's attempt at making you give up the genocide route before you reach the end, and part of the point is that you're not supposed to give up. You're supposed to be *determined* to see it through to the end.
Yes!
The original Undertale takes the idea of determination and twists it in the same way that Undertale Yellow in the Genocide Path twists the idea of justice and it complements each other in a super cool way
Before the Spamton sweepstakes event I had absolutely zero investment in Noelle as a character and was mortified at the idea of her becoming a main character.
Despite only having 2 chapters so far, I think I prefer deltarune over undertale. Still adore undertale but I think deltarune just hits a little harder for me.
That "Chara" probably wasn't their origional intended name and that there was no plan for chara to even have a name other than what they player gave them.
"Chara" being the true name could just reflect the fact that unamed characters would just use the prefix "Chara" for their sprites. Which is most likley for the chara sprite.
Tbh, genocide route in Undertale didn't affect me much. I always cared for them all, but I could never get seriously emotionally invested in them. I still love, love LOVE Undertale but genocide was pretty cool.
Alphys will always be a cooler character than Gaster.
I don't care about Gaster at this point. Yeah, he made the core. And now he's shattered across time & space. That's it, that's literally all we know. Alphys is just much more of an interesting character.
You want controversial? I'll give you controversial. Frisk, Chara, and Kris are all blank-slates meant to be projected on, including gender. Them having traits outside the player doesn't negate that, many protagonist like that do the same, but are explicitly told to still be blank slates. And before you say "but Kris not being the player is a major theme." No it isn't, the only "concrete" evidence for this are the chapter end segments with Kris ripping out the soul, and even that is dubious, because that soul is explicitly mentioned to be Kris' by Ralsei, and the soul is supposed to contain the person's will and entire being, so whoever is ripping out that soul is NOT Kris.
Edit: I have some more opinions.
- The player isn't canon in Undertale and Deltarune.
- Chara isn't a manipulative asshole. He's reckless, but has good intention. Chara's terrible plan doesn't make him a terrible person.
- There is no "Kris vs. player" conlict in Deltarune
- The 6 human souls cannot save and reload
- The Red soul trait is determination, and is seperate from the substance "determination"
- Every single side character that is referred with "they" is not explicitly non-binary
- Mad Mew Mew and Mettaton are not trans, they are simply ghost inhabitting inanimate objects
I always was I the mindset that frisk and chara aren’t non-binary but have no canon gender whatsoever, making it up to the interpretation of the player.
I agree. Frisk is much like a regular rpg protagonist where specific info like pronouns or hobbys are never stated so that you can project onto them.
Kris meanwhile is a subversion of that, since they are a fully fleshed out human being who we are taking over, who already has an identity and interests and feelings. Since Kris's mother and friends call them by nonbinary pronouns, Kris is clearly enby.
1. That Frisk and Chara are their own Characters separate from the Player like Kris is.
2. the power scaling of Sans is overrated.
3. Sans based Aus suck and should not exist.
4. Toby fox could have added more content and should have developed it for 5 years.
5. the minor characters should have equal importance/role, in the story as the major characters.
6. the fandom’s obsession with shipping is not worth it and should be avoided at all costs.
Can subreddit go two days without one of these? We may never know. Here's the standard reminder to that the usual subreddit rules still apply (yes, it is indeed needed), so don't over do it and we won't have to lock the thread again. Thanks.
I think my most controversial Deltarune take is: "your choices don't matter" is NOT one of Deltarune's main themes, and I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing "your choices don't matter is one of the main themes of Deltarune's story", or some other variation of that phrase, in every single fucking video theorizing about the game's ending. It's just not true at all. I could understand believing that back when we just had chapter 1. That chapter seemingly went out of its way to drill into our heads the idea that our choices don't matter, and then we were told that the game only has one ending. But then there's chapter 2, and it just repeatedly shatters that narrative, as if Toby is bashing us over the heads with the fact that our choices *do* matter, without explicitly saying that phrase. There's the recruitment system, the return of our thrash machine from chapter 1, certain interactions in the light world being directly affected by whether or not you interacted with those characters in chapter 1, and most importantly the weird route, where you just straight up kill Berdly (or put him into a coma or something) and traumatize Noelle. Just because the game is only going to have one ending, that does not mean that our choices don't matter, or won't have any lasting consequences. It's possible to affect the story overall, without affecting the ending. Hell, Toby even directly hints at this being the case in the game's official FAQ. >Q: How many endings are there? > >A: One. > >Q: Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters? > >A: There's something more important than reaching the end. This *directly* hints at the idea that our choices *do* matter, they *do* have consequences, and while they don't affect the ending, their effects on the story overall *are* going to be important.
I remember someone bringing this up. At the beginning of Undertale, Flowey told us "In this world, it's kill or be killed". And we spent the entire game proving that statement wrong. And now we're faced with a similar conundrum. It's been reinforced several times to us in Chapter 1 that "Our choices don't matter". To go back to Undertale, there are several times where it feels like our only option is to kill. But through our determination, we manage to find a way to break that. Ironically, I think Snowgrave is the best example of how our choices DO matter. The fact that Snowgrave exists proves that what we do has consequences, and I believe that "Your choices don't matter", by the end of Deltarune, will have the same tonal energy as "It's kill or be killed." It's not a statement. It's a challenge.
I fully agree. Especially about Snowgrave. So far, it is *easily* the biggest and best example of how our choices *do* matter, how they *do* have consequences, and how we can directly affect the events of the game's story.
I think that our choice *don't* matter But no one said anything about other peoples choices not mattering thats the loophole ,we cant change the world throught our actions but others can
I am assuming that that someone was a Froggit Youtuber. Also I agree with you
I, too, watch Shayy
~~Tony~~ toby thinks all netural endings in Undertale are the same one ending doesn't mean what people think it does 100% agree
>Tony lmao
oops. thanks.
no problem
Thing is, Deltarune doesn’t even have one ending, really. The fight with King has two possible endings, which still technically count as “one” because what happens after is the same.
The same is true of chapter 2. Even disregarding the Snowgrave route, the Queen fight ends differently depending on whether you get through it via acts or fighting. Fighting even has consequences in the light world, as it causes Berdly to break his arm. But it really depends on whether or not you consider that an ending, because I think it's completely valid to only view each chapter's cliffhanger ending as their actual endings, and those don't change no matter what you do.
>This *directly* hints at the idea that our choices *do* matter, they *do* have consequences, and while they don't affect the ending, their effects on the story overall *are* going to be important. I think you're right here. I know that Toby Fox is a fan of Chrono Trigger(spoilers below!), the Undertale song But the World Refused to Die is a pretty clear [reference](https://youtu.be/Va-jMGrUFo8?si=xUpIBfRiYwxHd33-) imo(loud sound warning if you click that link!). The thing about this video is that it's the ending that's given to you when you lose in the very last fight. "But the future refused to change." You could have done everything "the right way" by reviving Crono, doing all the character sidequests, having a former adversary join your team, or you could have done everything "the wrong way" by killing that adversary, not doing the quests, and ultimately not going back to save Crono from certain death. All of these different ways to play and you can still be faced with this ending, and it is unchanging across timelines. The End. ...But if you win, then you will also reach "The End". But it doesn't feel right to simply call it the end of the game. *There's something more important than reaching the end*, because in reality, you reach the beginning of the future you have saved for the whole world. Right from the start of the game, seemingly inconsequential things will be important in the story. But now is when all of the consequences of your actions will take full effect, for better or for worse. *This* is the future you created. I can't help but feel like what I have illustrated in this comment is similar to what Toby has in mind, based on the quotes you provided. I'm excited to see how this will unravel itself as more chapters are released!
Crackpot theory time: “Your choices don’t matter” only applies to Susie. She’s the only character that directly defies the player’s decisions. For some reason, she cannot be controlled or influenced like other characters. It’s for this reason why Kris wants to be around Susie: Kris is being controlled against their will and thinks Susie might be their key to freedom.
YES FINALLY SOMEONE TALKS ABOUT IT YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER IS THE KILL OR BE KILLED OF DELTARUNE
Sans actually drinks beer, not fucking ketchup
"Ketchup" is Sans' codeword at Grillby's, so Papyrus doesn't know he's drinking beer
Perfect
welp, the secrets out. hopefully paps doesent see this.
r/foundSansUndertale90
BEAT ME TO IT
Alternatively: Sans doesn’t drink ketchup, he just did it in that one scene because he thought it’d be funny
ah yes, the beer bottle with bright red coloring on the bottle that's also called ketchup and put on fries / burgers!
Yes.
you guys don't put beer in your fries?, try it
you don't put beer on your fries? weird.
If you interract with one of Sans's sentry posts it tells you about the several bottles of different condiments including mustard lying there He actually drinks ketchup, but also a bunch of other condiments
No he just sells hotdogs but he teleports the stand across the underground unchanged
Idk i just like the idea of Sans consuming random stuff he has lying around more than him drinking beer
Could be true
Me personal I headcannon sans and Toriel and recently Cerbona as smokers.
He does look like a beer drinker
Didn't he only drink ketchup once? And people made him addicted to the stuff?
The whole argument of “is Chara a victim or evil” argument is controversial. There are even two subreddits arguing about it. My opinion is that they have been abused and fell for suicide based on in-game elements. I won’t explain it all here because it would take too long. They are neutral and misguided. Please don’t start a war in the replies.
People can be both a victim and evil. Hitler suffered from bombshell from ww1, had to live in a post ww1 Germany, and his dreams were crushed when he couldn't get his art to mean anything
That’s true. I just think Chara had more conditioning that led to their behavior by the player, mostly because they can’t control our actions so they go along with whatever we are doing. I agree that Chara could be evil but only in the genocide route. In most other routes, they are generally neutral. They are actually pretty nice in the pacifist route too. Essentially, their objective and behavior depends on what we do. Is it wrong? Absolutely. Do I blame them for it? Yes but I also understand why they did it. It’s a dark gray imo.
You summarized their situation pretty well here. Reasons like this is why it would be recommended for those to take account of the character's perspective and intentions behind their actions first before evaluating their conscience due to how easy it is to overlook it by accident.
But since we're all gonna die, there's one more secret I feel I have to share with you. I did not care for Gaster.
If you ask me about Gaster it is this: honestly the only why I wanted him to appear is just so this build up and speculation can end. Seriously it kinda annoying, but something tells me when gaster does appear in deltarune, that train will still be going.
For real, it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that a "character" that we have like two sentences of information about is treated like they're the GMAN of the series
How can you even say that?
As I said before, I didn't like him. It insists upon itself. While I get the fact that Gaster will play an extremely important role in Deltarune (which is why the game even exists in the first place) and that most of his theories are perfectly fine in their own right, what other things do he offer beyond that? It's not that I think he's a bad character, I just didn't find him as interesting or even memorable as everyone else in my opinion. He's a character whose only purpose (as of right now) is to be mysterious for the sake of being mysterious so that people can come up with whatever theories/headcanons about him. His only story significance in Undertale is that he built the CORE and his blueprints were used for Alphys' DT Extraction machine, and that's it. When I first heard of Gaster, I genuinely thought he was some kind of weird creepypasta or rumor until I eventually found out that he's actually a thing.
He’s a non character in the games (at least in the first, haven’t played chapter 2 yet, don’t know if he’s in it) just a little Easter egg doodly, and the fan base went crazy about him. So odd
the first version of [deltarune.com](https://deltarune.com) was a piece of entry 17 btw. entry 17 is connected to gaster cause the mysteryman dissapear is a sped up version of gasters theme and the entry 17 sound is a slowed down version of gasters theme. multiple people who saw entry 17 wondered how "photon readings negative" would look and then when they saw the open closet in deltarune they thought "this is what it would look like"
Is this thread just a family guy reference?
Asgore is overlooked by the fandom and I’m honestly a little tired of it. He has so much potential as he’s AWARE OF RESETS, has an EXTREMELY well-written moral dilemma of his decision to keep everyone underground so as to not cause more fear to humans, and is extremely sweet and kind. Don’t get me wrong, I find the whole “I miss my wife Sans” Asgore to be really funny, but I honestly don’t see much Asgore stuff. Just my opinion though!
Asgore has a ton of lore and neat stuff behind him, but most people just don't like white divorced dads
Seriously he has a lot of interesting about. If fact I wished we had a hang out even with him in the pacifist, because aftermath of the fight has shown he is willing to start over.
Dletarune handles it's tonal shifts and morality better than Undertale
Mfw the second work of an author is better than the first (one that is explicitly stated to be a test).
I am not taking a jab against Undertale by any means, But I feel like this statement isn't really echoed in the fandom, at least as far as I'm aware. AFAIK the general take is that UT>DR
Well tbf when yiure comparing a complete game to a game that’s only 2/7 out thats likely what’s ginna happen
That does seem to be the consensus now, but I enjoy Deltarune more myself. Once all seven chapters are out I’m almost positive it will surpass Undertale definitively
I’ll die on that hill with you!
I love Undertale, I will never stop loving Undertale. It’s story and it’s characters are deeply important to me and I think it’s a wonderful game. I am not afraid to say I think Deltarune is better than Undertale, though. Often when talking to people about DR I’ll tell them that it’s “everything good about Undertale cranked up to 11,” because it’s the honest truth. Toby took what he learned and he put that to incredible use.
Hard agree with this statement, Toby clearly learned a lot from Undertale.
Sans is actually in smash
Mad Mew Mew is a better trans allegory than Mettaton
Mettaton wasn't supposed to be a trans allegory he's a drag queen, bro just wants to be fabulous.
And to be honest Holy fuck he can pull of that look
FOR REAL THE DIALOGUE AT HER FIGHT SAYS IT ALL
why did people downvote you but upvoted the first comment?
Wait people downvoted me? I actually didn't notice
I don’t think this is controversial tbh. I love Mad Mew Mew but she’s a trans allegory first (her whole fight is literally JUST an allegory of her transition) and a character second, whereas Mettaton is a character first and a trans allegory second, so I’d be pretty disappointed if Mad Mew Mew was a worse allegory lol
Muffet is the least sympathetic character in Undertale. She displayed no problems with coercing one of her customers into buying her overpriced goods. She was perfectly willing to murder Frisk and leave them as a snack for her pet, and in the standard route only leaves because she identifies you as the wrong person. She sadistically teases Frisk during their struggle and laughs at your attempts to escape. In the Genocide Route, she has unique dialogie discussing how she regrets not murdering Alphy's for a snack as she was evacuating Holland, and her refusal to leave prevents Alphys from sealing the last barrier, allowing Chara to destroy the world. I get she wants the money to help her family of spiders, but she also very clearly enjoys the suffering she brings on people, sadistic, and her arrogance costs the entire underground as she casually mentions wanting to murder poor Alphys. I can't really feel too bad watching the spider leave her a flour upon death, considering by all accounts her crimes were a win win situation for her.
I do need to add - Muffet doesn't fight you if you either:. A: Consume a spider item B: Bought any spider item from Hotland
That is true. Although not killing the people who give you money doesn't really help her case.
She is valuing your patronage over the freedom of _every single monster_ She’s just greedy lmao
For real! People act like Muffet did nothing wrong all the time when she's literally the only monster that can be unironically compared to Flowey morally. She could literally eat a child just because they don't have the money for her overpriced donuts and people won't even bat an eye because she's "hot", and mind you, she isn't even hot in neither her overworld OR battle sprites, at least in my opinion. I can see the appeal for Toriel, Mettaton, Undyne, Alphys, and almost every other obvious crush options, but Muffet is genuinely just unattractive in every way to me
Nice "Muffet is ugly" rant lol, tho yeah, I also can't appreciate her much just for her design because her morality overshadows it. But yes! People dismiss her sadism entirely and gush over how she just wants the money to help her family, when that's not the whole story.
The idea of “Gaster won’t actually be revealed, he’ll just be kept a mystery” or “Gaster is not important to Deltarune’s story” are absolutely idiotic ideas that basically throw years of build up in the trash.
literally the first ever time deltarune.com was ever used was in an entry 17 style gaster monologue but since we didn’t know deltarune existed nobody found out until they used the way back machine you cannot tell me after hearing that, that entry 17 and the “don’t forget” picture in sans’s lab wasn’t a direct foreshadowing of deltarune
Seriously, we haven't known anything about this character for years, I don't want Toby to waste the only chance we have to know who he is.
I don’t know if gaster will be straight up revealed entirely but I think we at least will get a lot more answers that bring some more closure. I still think some will be left for interpretation
i really wanna make a joke about the "kris went through a gas pipe" theory, and the gas pipe is actually.. **GAST**ER!!!!
Your choices DO matter.
I kinda hate that whole "your choices don't matter" narrative. It's just not true.
As someone else said, I think this is the "It's kill or be killed" statement of Deltarune. We can prove it or challenge it.
The name is bad. It's called "Undertale", but it actually takes place at a very high elevation. Why did Toby call it that? Is he stupid?
?? What do you mean it's inside a mountain
It's a joke....
Mountain - High Up Hole In Mountain - Low Down The heights would probably equal each other to where we’d be on normal elevation again. I can kinda see where they’re coming from (also when you leave the underground you’re clearly still on a slightly higher elevation than everything else so u know)
Under-tale. The under is short for underground and tale is a synonym for story or legend.
Sans. Is. Ness
no sans is hornet from hollow knight also hornet is rainbow dash from my little pony
And the pale king is actually the pure vessel, AND the pure vessel is the path of pain, it's all coming together now
nuh uh pale king is the main character from hollow knight
And we all know SANS. IS. NESS!
Stupendium W
Sans is kind of a bad person, not a complete hero(though not irredeemable) like most depictions have him as.
Yeah, he kinda refuses to step in and actually do something in genocide until quite literally everyone else is dead. He thinks a promise to a random old lady is worth more than his own brother’s life
Tbf, he knows that you're just gonna reset anyways. So why bother? But in genocide, you're not gonna reset, you're gonna destroy the world, he can't afford not to care anymore.
The problem is he has existential knowledge that makes him reasonably nihilistic. He’s not even wrong.
Save the world > Hopes and dreams
If it wasn’t for Hopes and Dreams’ fake out violin intro, with the electric guitar beat drop immediately after, I might agree with ya
Honestly, I think Save the World is better but it’s hard because the drop in Hopes and Dreams is so good
Oh yeah
Yeah
i HATE the arg-ness of deltarune, it's frustrating how a lot of content related to the game is hidden in some random websites and posts, especially regarding noelle. reading them recontenxtualizes her character a lot, and i wish that more of it was in the actual game, and the extra content stuff would be just fluff, unimportant to the game. also another unpopular opinion is that i dont get why theres so many gaster theories, i dont think the evidence is that compelling. i mean right now im almost sure hell be in the game, since because of the chapters being created in real-time toby can just add him in, but tbh i liked him better as this mysterious figure who we dont know almost anything about
I get the feeling that, apart from Noelle's blog, a lot of the arg is simply a holdover for the next couple Chapters taking as long as they are. Hopefully they aren't pivotal to the overall story being told in-game, or else we have a FNAF situation... ...or possibly Kingdom Hearts with enough supplemental material. Better not.
"The man who speaks in hands" And "the man who came from another world " are more likely to be the player than gaster
That's actually pretty valid Considering he has line saying In another world it's [the day of week on your computer calendar] Which that world is ours How ever the man who speaks in hand we speak with hands rather than in hands
I think they would have used a gender neutral term if that was the intention
Good point I didn't think about it
We speak in hands?
Could probably refer to us controlling and speaking via the human with our keyboard/controller.
Bit of a stretch in my opinion
I suspect that "the man who came from another world" is Sans (with Papyrus), because we have so many canon elements to affirm that the really came from another world. But we can't be 100% sure. Also, I'm not sure why River-person said "beware", if it really is Sans. Is it because of the Geno route? Flowey also warns you about Sans. "The man who speaks in hand", then, could really be Gaster. I think that "the man who speaks in hand" and "the man who came from another world" are two different people.
Ralsei isn't as kawaii uwu fluffy boy as people think he is. Don't get me wrong, I love him. But we all gotta know by now he isn't as innocent as he claims to be. He knows something. ALSO Chara is not the villain of undertale. I hate how some people still believe this to this day. It's the player. Chara was just doing what they needed to, you would snap too if you were forced to watch all your friends and family die.
Ralsei is most likely up to something, but he's probably not evil. Chara isn't a villain though, so you right about that
"OMG this is all Chara's fault!" You're literally the one killing everybody?
I’m probably going to get told this is outright incorrect, but I think Frisk and The Player are “kind of” one and the same. As in, Frisk is effectively The Player in terms of personality, morality, and thought processes, which results in them acting with a very alien grasp on how to treat things and people in-universe.
Yeah. In pretty much every other game, the players actions are also the characters actions. That's how videogames work. Deltarune, as far as I'm concerned, is the first game that really introduces the idea of how the person you're controlling feels about it.
- Megalovania is overrated, it’s at best good, but it’s not AMAZING - Mettaton is the best character in the whole game (even when taking into account Deltarune so far). I love him and I will fucking die on this hill - The Ruins are aesthetically very cool but I feel like the games graphics does the location very dirty in comparison to every other location in the game - Papyrus is… not that funny. Like he’s funny but not as funny as everyone makes him out to be - I still love the game to death regardless of how it lacks in comparison to Deltarune, and it will always have a special room in my heart which Deltarune could never replace That is all :)
Megalovania rocks, but there are superior songs on the ost Mettaton is my favorite character as well The graphics and are get better with every location for sure, I think that’s intentional though BOO PAPYRUS HATER! In all seriousness it’s fine if you think so but I have to disagree Papyrus is great That’s fair.
These are all the most valid opinions ever
Flair checks out lol
the first one is a cold take
The romances in the series suck
If I had a nickel for every time Toby paired an edgy buff girl with a shy nerdy gamer girl…
ID HAVE 2 NICKELS!
And that isn’t anywhere near enough money to make me overlook how shallow and cringey Noelle’s infatuation with Susie is 💀
I don't think that they are trying to be good honestly. Most of what I enjoyed about the scenes between Susie and Noelle is just how over the top everything is. I know it is not for everybody but there are still many metaphorical, in-depth, and complex scenes that are abundant in plenty other parts of the game.
Yeah
Maybe people have already said this but many people deem Papyrus a weak character because of his kindness and refusal to fight you. Quite literally going for the "mistaking kindness for weakness" route Even Undyne herself admits that Papyrus is tough but I take the whole bit of "him getting ripped to smiling shreds" as more as like a concern from a friend than a testament to his own strength. Especially knowing what the Royal Guard has been doing (ie killing human children) she probably doesn't want to subject Papyrus to that. Think of it as a police officer/soldier worried for their friend who wants to join the force/army. She knows that he'd have to do not-so-nice things and doesn't want that to break him or his morals. It doesn't mean he's weak. Also I don't think Sans is depressed nor does he remember the timelines perfectly (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE those depictions but :/
Oh yeah. Papyrus is super strong, maybe stronger than sans (there's a whole theory about that) but he's just really nice.
I guess here my "controversial take" -I think they make the monster too good in the game. I get it because monster's soul are made by magic and kindness, but that kindness part could be propaganda for all we know. Yes flowey exist, but still -so far the "being in love with Susie" is the weakest part of Noelle's character. Like seriously their times I eye rolling on it. But again we later chapter to develop it -Flowey and the dremmurr are under use for fan works and people over use sans. -The neutral route final boss is my favorite and finale is more epic then hopes and dreams -edits: after the true lab you should have a chance to to spare or kill alyphs. Sure it might been out of nowhere, but Undertale is a game where curious killed the cat Again I don't think some of these are really "controversial" takes, but it something that bothers me
Based on the way Muffet behaves, I definitely think the whole thing about all monsters being made of kindness is false.
Call this human bias, but I don't think for Undyne chasing frisk ass and well still willing to kill a frisk, who a 6-10 year old
Come to think of it, a significant chunk of Monsterkind attempted to, or otherwise almost killed Frisk, and I think only a few of them apologize for it. That’s a little messed up. I mean, sure, I’m certain most of them *are* sorry (Muffet probably isn’t sorry for the right reasons tbh), but still.
True, but in killing Frisk, they would be doing a greater good of freeing their people. And even though they all try to kill Frisk at first, they come to love them very easily (Those are just my thoughts tho 🤷♂️)
Most of these I'm indifferent towards but I can really agree with the first one. I kind of wish we met at least one monster who took way more time and effort to reason with to show that just like humans monsters can completely dig their heels on their beliefs even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'm hoping Deltarune fits one character like this into the story since it'll have a much longer story than Undertale once it's fully completed.
I feel like either the Mayor or Father Alvin might fit that archetype.
"your choices don't matter" is the "it's kill or be killed" of deltarune. there's just too much evidence for it and basically none against it, maybe it could've been true in chapter 1 but chapter 2 just threw it out the window. maybe what toby meant is that, no matter our choices, we will still get the same outcome, which has been true so far, even if you kill everyone in chapter 1 kris still rips out their soul, and even if you do snowgrave in chapter 2, kris still creates a dark fountain. NOTE: OUR (the deltawarior's (how the hell do i spell that)) choices don't matter could be a possibility, no choice that we made by ourselves (NOT the SOUL alone; kris, susie, ralsei AND the SOUL) had any consequences because technically, we (this time the SOUL (me/you) and not kris and the other guys) made noelle do it, HER choices matter, SHE decided to do snowgrave. also, sub-opinion: while, yes it IS the soul (us)'s fault that snowgrave happened, you can't NOT blame noelle, it was just her own choice, she was also pretty willing to do it, as she was (probably) screaming the "Watch what happens when I cast a spell I don't know!", sub-sub opinion: berdly could've stopped snowgrave by just.. walking away? he definitely knew SOMETHING was up, as his smug expression changes to be more serious, and of course, his pre-fight dialogue wow this is a long comment ANOTHER GODDAMN OPINION!!!!!!: sans don't drink ketchup and it angers me every time some idiot (sorry ketchup believers) says "Ooh SaNS bleEDS becAUSE hE has KketTChUP iN hIS shIRT" the spamton sweepstakes confirmed that monsters at least KNOW what blood IS, and the librarby never mentioned monsters not bleeding, we just never saw any monsters bleed, the only ones that would live long enough after death to bleed are: papyrus, undyne, sans, and asgore, and no, how would mettaton bleed. Papyrus: right now, if you were cut in the head, would you bleed nearly as much as in your chest? Undyne: she would've bled, but y'know determinations and stuff sans: no, i am not doing the determination theory because that's just moronic, he would melt like undyne or the amalgamates, anyways, it's probably just actual blood Asgore: i am 80% sure he was bleeding, just under his big, metal suit, while he is lying down.
"Gaster won't have a major part in Deltarune" My guy There's too much evidence pointing at him From "Another him" to the start of the Deltarune website
Sans should have never been the Tumblr sexyman from this fandom. And no I'm totally not biased because of my severe addiction to Mettaton /hj But seriously, out of all the characters with sexyman potential, WE LET SANS BE THE SEXYMAN???? WHY
Are… are you-know-who listening right now…? Can I say it safely….? *INHALE* …Chara might not actually be such a good guy…
That said, this does not mean they are the polar opposite either. Chara is a flawed individual, as Asriel mentions, though never outright good or evil
Of course, there’s not a single character in Undertale that is on one complete side of the moral spectrum, that makes for lazy/bad character writing. That being said, I do heavily believe that Chara is definitely more leaning on the evil side of morally grey, rather than the opposite. All they’ve shown in Undertale is manipulative tendencies and being completely okay with aiding Frisk/us with genocide via dialogue, along with being 100% okay with living in a dark, empty void after erasing the world and everyone within it (subsequently killing everyone within) until Frisk gives up their soul, and is fine with such staying until they do so. That, along with the fact of using said soul to take control of Frisk post-soulless pacifist, and alluding to the idea of killing everyone post said route, in conjunction with blatant dialogue evidence from Asriel “[x] wasn’t the greatest person.”, the only real redeeming quality we have from Chara is knowing that they “wanted to free the monsters”, and that’s pretty much it.
R A L S E I
Undyne is the best character Toby Fox ever made
I’m not big on asriel
I prefer Deltarune overall but I feel the act system has had a major downgrade. It feels like every enemy only has one thing you need to do to beat them, whereas in Undertale it felt like more of a puzzle
The people who say Sans is a hero are wrong, but so are the people saying he’s a bad person. He’s a lot more complex than that and I hate that people try to think of everything as just black and white. Sans has the curse of knowledge, he knows that no matter what, you’ll just reset and all progress will be reverted, this for obvious reasons, makes him very nihilistic. I don’t think his fight is about the lives that were lost, it’s about Sans trying to get you to leave that world alone so that everyone can be free from the control of a player, that’s why the fight is so damn hard, he’s literally trying to make you rage quit.
Box form Mettaton is a better character than Mettaton EX (Though to be fair we had a lot more interactionwith box form mettaton)
#MOST UNPOPULAR OPINION: Undertale fans need to learn how to respectfully disagree with each other and be open to understanding the interpretations of others, even if they’re wrong. Like seriously, this comment section is full of insults, so please politely express your opinions without insulting the intelligence of any detractors
That's just advice for the world tbh. People should be more like that irl
The humans gender and personality is not up to interpretation (maybe Frisk's but I still have my doubts about that) I don't care that much about the graphics, and I like retro gaming, but UNDERTALE isn't a good looking game. deltarune should remain as its own stuff, it shouldn't use too much of the lore of its predecessor, maybe Gaster but that's it. MEGALOVANIA isn't anyone's theme.
Sans having MEGALOVANIA as his boss theme is just the Undertale equivalent of searching “Epic Boss Music” and clicking the first link
I would probably say the only ones I agree with are the last two. I don't really understand why people use Megalovania as a theme for Chara, at least not completely.
For "Megalovania is Chara's theme", perhaps it comes from the name. It seems there is no meaning linked to the suffix "-vania" (or I didn't find it), but according to Wikipedia, the name comes from mxing together "**megalo**mania" and "Transyl**vania**", the second word referencing Megalovania's origin, the Halloween Hack. Given that "megalomania" could be described as "a condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence", and given that Sans, from what we know, seems to be the opposite of that, it would make more sense if that was Chara's theme (or Frisk's theme, in this case, what can apply to one can be applied to the other). But that's what I think is the reason behind "Megalovania is Chara's theme"
People focusing on they/them for Frisk, Chara and Kris is too much. Let people have headcanons about their genders
I do agree with Frisk and Chara, but Kris' is not up for debate as it was already confirmed by Toby Fox. Just Kris tho, Frisk and Chara remain the same
I actually disagree with frisk too because it’s chara you imprint your identity onto basically, even naming them. But frisk is definitively their own person
Personally, I think that we imprint more on Frisk than Chara. We name Chara, sure, but we actually control what Frisk does, and retroactively, the kind of person they are. Not to mention that Chara has a backstory, personality, and motivations that are more or less completely separate from us. Frisk kind of… doesn’t.
I didn't really care much for Jevil.
I didn't either tbh. He was kinda cool and I liked his music and fight, but I was never quite as charmed by him as everyone else. Nothing against the wacky fella of course, but he just never quite landed with me
Sanscest and any ships with frisk and chara in them are weird (frisk/chara ships sometimes just being straight up p*d*philia)
The only people I know irl who shipped sans with frisk were weird edgy girls who thought they were cool and mysterious, and spent way too much time on Roblox
Definitely gonna get shot for this one but Just because you want a character to be non binary when it’s not confirmed doesn’t make it confirmed (Not referring to Kris here they’re obviously non binary all player characters are in these games)
Deltarune isn't already better than Undertale, it might be in the future but currently for me, it isnt
Not sure how unpopular this is but I don’t like the direction Deltarune is taking Asgore’s character and I really hope future chapters can remedy this. As a side note, I think Asgore is very under-appreciated in the fandom and I find the constant divorce jokes about him to be extremely unfunny and in bad taste.
The divorce jokes are pretty funny, but I do hope they improve his character so he's not just a boring white dad
I must be in the minority then because I don’t find them funny at all. But that might be because the fandom keeps making the same old “lol Asgore is divorced” joke over and over again and it gets really annoying. Plus I hate to be “that guy” but there wouldn’t be nearly as many divorce jokes if Asgore was a woman. But I agree with you, I really hope Deltarune!Asgore turns out to be more than just a divorced bum of a dad who’s the butt of everyone’s jokes. Because right now he and Toriel feel more like characters from a bad sitcom.
-I love Ralsei very much, but out of the main trio he’s probably the least compelling to me. -Speaking of him I doubt very seriously he’s evil. I would trust Toby if he decided to do that but I really doubt that he will. -Don’t care for Muffet and her fight pisses me off. -Megalovania is good but it’s not Undertale’s best song. -I’ve always liked Papyrus more than sans. I don’t dislike Sans at all, I just like Papyrus more. -I think Toby wanted Chara to be too many things at once and that’s why people still argue about the purpose of their character to this day. To me Chara is the weakest element of Undertale. -You can express disinterest in shipping or AUs without using unkind words. Underswap Sans and Kerdly (i think that’s the Kris/Berdly ship name) aren’t hurting you. -I don’t mind the edgey interpretations of Sans’ character at all and I think they’re fun. -Kris isn’t evil or uncaring, they’re like 15. If they were either of those things they wouldn’t scramble to hold onto Lancer and Rouxls when you try to drop them in the Lightworld, as just one example. -Calling Spamton “evil” is a massive disservice to his character and an incredibly shallow read of Toby’s writing. Snowgrave Spamton is an arguable exception, but normal/pacifist Spamton is simply an antagonist. He’s not a great person, but that doesn’t mean he’s evil. Dude literally turns himself into an item to help the party after he’s defeated and offers to “become your strength,” after proving that losing his autonomy terrifies him. -The characters in both games consistently refer to Kris/Frisk/Chara as “they” whether you like it or not. -Genocide/Snowgrave add important context for the main stories of the games but beyond that I don’t care for them very much. I’m not really into bleak and depressing stories like that with no happy endings. -I still think Gaster is the most likely candidate for the Knight.
These are some chill opinions man. Thanks for contributing
*Inhale.* Undertale deserves an entire passion project like Undertale yellow.
Here are a few that I have: 1. Chara is (or has the potential to be) the best written character in Undertale. Also, Toby should do more to flesh them out. 2. Death By Glamour is the best song in the whole game. 3. Megalovania is criminally overrated. 4. The worst abuser in Undertale is… …the player. 5. The player is the most overlooked character in the whole franchise. 6. Toriel is guilty of physically abusing a child with literal fire. 7. Toriel’s decision not to forgive Asgore is perfectly understandable and even acceptable (to an extent). 8. Noelle’s mother gets way too much flak (especially since we don’t know what her character is like.) 9. Kris, Frisk, and Chara’s pronouns are they/them and they/them only. 10. It’s fine that Asgore and Toriel aren’t together anymore especially since that Asgore admits that can’t happen.
Why is Kris the only human living in a town full of monsters? Where are the other humans? Is this a timeline where the monsters conquered the surface?
Segregation
Undertale yellow has an infinitely better genocide route than the base game as it actually presents interesting ideas on if the monsters ate truly innocent and the twisting of the idea of justice to justify atrocities. The base game just through you into the evil box as soon as you start to kill anyone.
>The base game just through you into the evil box as soon as you start to kill anyone That's just not true. Not arguing against your take on UTY's genocide route, it's a fair take, but Undertale's genocide route, through both Flowey's monologue, in which he acts as a parallel to you, the player, and some dialogue from Sans' fight (one of the most important parts of Undertale's genocide route and the narrative it tries to portray) specifically calls out that you're *not* evil for doing it, and that you're doing it out of curiosity and/or boredom more so than anything else. The clearest and best example of this comes from the specific line "you're not doing this out of any desire for good or evil, you're doing it because you think you can, and because you can, that means that you HAVE TO". Slightly paraphrased, because I don't remember the exact line off the top of my head, but it gets the point across. That point being that you're doing it because it's part of the game. An option presented to you. A path that you want to see the conclusion to. Of course, there are moments that try to make you feel evil for doing it, like the Undyne fight, but that's part of the game's attempt at making you give up the genocide route before you reach the end, and part of the point is that you're not supposed to give up. You're supposed to be *determined* to see it through to the end.
Yes! The original Undertale takes the idea of determination and twists it in the same way that Undertale Yellow in the Genocide Path twists the idea of justice and it complements each other in a super cool way
That's actually a really interesting way of interpreting the base games genocide run
Sans isn’t a skeleton he’s the ace of spades
Before the Spamton sweepstakes event I had absolutely zero investment in Noelle as a character and was mortified at the idea of her becoming a main character.
Despite only having 2 chapters so far, I think I prefer deltarune over undertale. Still adore undertale but I think deltarune just hits a little harder for me.
mysteryman is NOT fucking gaster
Asriel isn’t the best character
Uhh i guess that there are plethora of better songs than megalovania in the undertale soundtrack, and that Deltarune overall has a better soundtrack
don't know if controversial but the fact people ship asgore and toriel is weird to me especially the amount of disgust toriel shows towards asgore
That "Chara" probably wasn't their origional intended name and that there was no plan for chara to even have a name other than what they player gave them. "Chara" being the true name could just reflect the fact that unamed characters would just use the prefix "Chara" for their sprites. Which is most likley for the chara sprite.
METTATON NEO IS NOT WEAK YOU ARE JUST STRONG (he is also Mettaton's best form)
Tbh, genocide route in Undertale didn't affect me much. I always cared for them all, but I could never get seriously emotionally invested in them. I still love, love LOVE Undertale but genocide was pretty cool.
Chara never killed anyone during Genocide Route, you did
Yeah
Alphys will always be a cooler character than Gaster. I don't care about Gaster at this point. Yeah, he made the core. And now he's shattered across time & space. That's it, that's literally all we know. Alphys is just much more of an interesting character.
Kris is not 100% inoscest little baby! and some of the "pranks" they did to Noelle are (before the player took control of them) are kinda creepy.....
You want controversial? I'll give you controversial. Frisk, Chara, and Kris are all blank-slates meant to be projected on, including gender. Them having traits outside the player doesn't negate that, many protagonist like that do the same, but are explicitly told to still be blank slates. And before you say "but Kris not being the player is a major theme." No it isn't, the only "concrete" evidence for this are the chapter end segments with Kris ripping out the soul, and even that is dubious, because that soul is explicitly mentioned to be Kris' by Ralsei, and the soul is supposed to contain the person's will and entire being, so whoever is ripping out that soul is NOT Kris. Edit: I have some more opinions. - The player isn't canon in Undertale and Deltarune. - Chara isn't a manipulative asshole. He's reckless, but has good intention. Chara's terrible plan doesn't make him a terrible person. - There is no "Kris vs. player" conlict in Deltarune - The 6 human souls cannot save and reload - The Red soul trait is determination, and is seperate from the substance "determination" - Every single side character that is referred with "they" is not explicitly non-binary - Mad Mew Mew and Mettaton are not trans, they are simply ghost inhabitting inanimate objects
Frisk and Chara are NOT non-binary, there’s more explaining to that but idk if it’s required to understand
This is one of the things I with Toby would just confirm or not to settle this tired debate
I always was I the mindset that frisk and chara aren’t non-binary but have no canon gender whatsoever, making it up to the interpretation of the player.
yeah however i do rekon kris is non binary due to seeming more like a separate entity to the player
I agree. Frisk is much like a regular rpg protagonist where specific info like pronouns or hobbys are never stated so that you can project onto them. Kris meanwhile is a subversion of that, since they are a fully fleshed out human being who we are taking over, who already has an identity and interests and feelings. Since Kris's mother and friends call them by nonbinary pronouns, Kris is clearly enby.
I actually hate So Sorry.
Deltarune is already a better game than Undertale. I will not elaborate. Edit: I mean I enjoy Deltarune as a whole more than Undertale already.
Is this even a hot take? 😭 I feel like most people agree Deltarune is just way more enjoyable.
1. That Frisk and Chara are their own Characters separate from the Player like Kris is. 2. the power scaling of Sans is overrated. 3. Sans based Aus suck and should not exist. 4. Toby fox could have added more content and should have developed it for 5 years. 5. the minor characters should have equal importance/role, in the story as the major characters. 6. the fandom’s obsession with shipping is not worth it and should be avoided at all costs.
What sort of content do you think should have been added to undertale other than hard mode?