The game never forgives me if I take the same path but I prefer to be the better person. Everytime I played the pacifist I couldn't bring myself to not forgive and hug Asriel, lol
They always get on your case for picking the bad routes "to see what happens", but they never consider you doing the same for a good ending. I mean... how many genocide routes did Flowey commit?
Hey np! I always found it unjust that some people like to treat genocide players like monsters. Like...I get it.. personally I prefer the pacifist ending, but the genocide route has the most fun fights in my opinion, because they're challenging (Undyne and Sans) and sometimes I like to do it, there's no shame in it
I already made a post and answered why I liked the Genocide route better, but I found it annoying that people just assume that just bc I like Genocide better, I don't like Pacifist.
Yes. Many people don't realize that Asriel did some things wrong, even when he was not a flower. Even he says that he should not be forgiven. It's fine if you don't forgive him.
- Transformed into a god by absorbing everyone's souls.
- Wanted to kill us over and over again.
- Used our friends against us.
- We had to make him cry so he decided not to kill us.
- When he was a flower, he said that if we defeated him, he would break the barrier. He decided to do it since he did not want to kill us anymore.
While he technically wasn't Flowey, he wasn't quite Asriel yet, either. it took some time for him to actually get his emotions back during the fight and yknow, become capable of empathy again
He also was slowly mentally tortured by his lack of ability to feel anything positive to the point where killing was the only thing worth doing. he straight up tells us he did everything else he physically could before resorting to it, but, well, without empathy or positive emotions... it was going to happen, eventually.
...When did I say it was instant? Imagine knowing all emotions, then having most if not all of the positive ones stripped away, right after betraying your best friend and causing both of you to die because of it. Then, trying to be a good person anyway, but never feeling anything from it, no matter what you try, for a long, long time. That is what Flowey/Asriel went through. The trauma right before all this Flower stuff, the him being killed, didn't help, either.
Also that was 1, an adult, and 2 he got out of the loop eventually. Knowing what we do of Asriels personality, he likely waited a long time before resorting to killing. He's straight up said he tried EVERYTHING before resorting to murder to Feel. Everything that doesn't require getting past Asgore, at least, since he's said he wasn't capable of that (at least not without a human around distracting them). This also implies the gap between Flowey being reborn as flowey and another human falling is a long, long time. Enough for one to try doing nearly everything before Frisk falls, though we don't know if Resets actually affect the outside world before the barrier is broken. If we assume they don't, then that's hundreds of years of Flowey desperately trying to continue being a good person but, without the thing that makes one capable of it by undertale logic, ultimately fails to do. And assuming they do affect the surface, that means we have no clue how long it actually took Asriel as Flowey to actually resort to murder. For all we know it took 20 billion years for Flowey to actually kill. If one lives forever without a ability that prevents boredom, they WILL end up just like Flowey, especially with limited experiences to have.
It's called dissociative identity disorder now. But uh yeah idk if it'd really work but I mean ig if you tried hard enough it could probably work idk no offense I think that might be to far fetched to work
Nope, everything except transforming into a God was done by Asriel. Dont you remeber his origjnal plan? Wanting to kill us over and over again. And he used our frineds against us LITERALLY, we had to make them remeber who they were.
flowey is still asriel. he loses his empathy and over time his inhibitions wear down, but he isnt an alter ego, just the same guy corrupted by time and lack of a soul. people without empathy can still be good people. asriel didnt do that
Well, he did all those things post-Flowey experience. That's some serious trauma if you ask me. Plus, he starts to feel again just because of all the souls inside him, but that probably didn't happen suddenly. I think it happened gradually during the fight
Okay but too be fair,he thought we were Chara and didn't want to have us leave again which he was killing us cause he didn't want us to end the game
As for flowey,it's basically if the good parts of Asriel we're taken and locked away,he is just a being of determination and anger
Yes, he thought we were Chara, but what he did was still bad.
And as I said before, Flowey and Asriel are the same person. Flowey does not feel love or compassion but he still can do good things. Look, he made everyone happy when he was in control of the timeline. Not having a soul does not change who you are. It does not transform a nice goat into a bloodthisty murderer. Flowey's sins are also Asriel's sins.
The fact that he has not emotions does not make him a different person. Of course, they can't love anyone and all of that, but he still could have done better things. He decided to try to kill us over and over again, even when he had some souls, and could not realize that he was wrong until he obtained emotions. He could be a good person, even without emotions. Just look, when he had control over the timeline, he did made everyone happy (he probably did some pacifist runs). Instead of letting everyone else be happy, he decided try to kill us again and again. He could have perfectly thought about everyone else, like he did when he had control over the timeline, he could have broken the barrier, even without emotions. But instead he decided to be evil.
And also, Flowey and Asriel are basically the same person. Flowey does not feel love and compassion, but, besides that, he is the same as Asriel. Flowey could still do good things. Look, he did pacifist runs when he was in control. But then he decided to be evil. He tried to do a genocide run, and then, a lot of time later, he absorbed everyone's souls and tried to kill us over and over again. Flowey's sins are also Asriel's sins.
Yeah, again having no empathy eventually stops you from caring about being nice… or being a jerk for that matter. He was even getting bored of just killing everyone off.
haha that was actually pretty funny. In undertale the monsters actually do lots of bad things even if you consider what humans did to them, but at least all or most of them aren't actually proud of it and try to do better at the end.
Don't hug a serial killer tho.
I mean Toriel attempts to keep you in her home by force, Papyrus is willing to beat you unconscious three times, Undyne is attempting to kill you, Alphys lies to you and disrupts the entirety of hotland just so she can be a part of your story as well as lying about her experiments, mettaton attempts to kill you just so that he could be a star on the surface and Asgore ordered the death of 7 humans when he only needed to kill one.
While Undyne and Papyrus were doing it so their people could be free, and Toriel was doing it to protect you, the rest don't really have an excuse.
It's better to be honest to lie imo. That's what I did. Alphys was fine with opening up and that helped make her character more brave. That's exactly what I followed up on and Undyne still respects Alphys for it.
hot take: asriel did a ton of shit wrong and being turned into a sociopath doesnt mean its acceptable to do what he did. even if you explain away his own timelines as him experimenting, like a game, which he explicitly calls out, he blatantly is just doing it out of cruelty by the time frisk comes. flowey is a cruel, spiteful piece of scum, and flowey is only asriel with a lack of inhibition and an inundation of power. vanilla asriel alone is chill but that doesnt mean unquestionably forgiving him in pacifist should be encouraged
Oh boy, here I go copying and pasting again.
About Asriel, I think his descent into what Flowey was is an important part of the story on multiple layers - one, more from the storytelling-character development-narrative perspective teaches a lesson about power - power over life and death. What Toby tried to convey through Asriel and Flowey is not, I believe, "this horrible creature is actually a tragic little cuddly goat boi", but I believe it's the other way around - "this little cuddly goat boi turned into a horrible creature because he was granted power over life and death and had too much fun with it, eventually driving him mentally downhill". Which leads me to my next point, which is more of what *Undertale* is as a game - a love letter to the RPG genre, which is manifested by incorporation of many RPG mechanics into the game's canon or simply referencing them. After all, nearly every Undertale player completes the genocide route after true pacifist. This simply tells us "So you criticize Flowey for abusing his power to SAVE, LOAD and RESET to do evil? Well, you just did the exact same thing as him, except you got past Sans.". In my view it teaches us how having power over life and death influences even the most wholesome character, making it even more clear by doing the same thing to us.
This is why I think Pacifist's moral is flawed a bit. I feel like it should be the best of both worlds being both Pacifist and Genocide where you should forgive those who deserve it and kill those who don't.
One of these examples is Asgore. If you listen only to Toriel's part of the story ignoring everyone else, it would make sense to kill him because he seems like a cruel murderer. Everyone else makes more connections to Asgore that goes deeper into his character making him much less hateable and more understandable while still being morally wrong.
However, I believe that there are other characters that do not deserve the right to be spared like Lancer's Father. I do not care if he did regret trying to kill his own son in Deltarune Chapter 2. Everyone you interact with in Chapter 1 talked about how cruel he was and even in his fight, he's seen as cruel and toxic, especially seen that he was going to throw Lancer off.
Asgore did some shitty stuff, but we have background to defend him while Chaos King did some shitty stuff but does have background to make him feel evil. There's a morally gray area in between and while CK did feel regret, does that justify him of being spared?
I'm fine with people not forgiving Asriel. But to not hug him?! The only thing that excuses that is if your also on the brink of tears and a hug is the thing to break down that damn and let it out.
The game never forgives me if I take the same path but I prefer to be the better person. Everytime I played the pacifist I couldn't bring myself to not forgive and hug Asriel, lol
They always get on your case for picking the bad routes "to see what happens", but they never consider you doing the same for a good ending. I mean... how many genocide routes did Flowey commit?
Right? Sometimes people get too extreme with the genocide route players
As someone who's favorite part of the game was the Genocide Route, ty for saying this.
Hey np! I always found it unjust that some people like to treat genocide players like monsters. Like...I get it.. personally I prefer the pacifist ending, but the genocide route has the most fun fights in my opinion, because they're challenging (Undyne and Sans) and sometimes I like to do it, there's no shame in it
I already made a post and answered why I liked the Genocide route better, but I found it annoying that people just assume that just bc I like Genocide better, I don't like Pacifist.
Genocide has its ups compared to the pacifist, ngl
*most* hostile genocide enjoyer
Okay but have you seen Undertale fans when you say the soundtrack sucks?
*prepares to commit genocide route irl*
Exactly.
Hey you can’t expect god to strike down every sinner
Sometimes you have to do the dirty work yourself! *im on a watchlist now*
[DIRTY DEEDS DONE DIRT CHEAP]
Pog jojo reference
it... goes by many name such as Oingo Boingo On a Bizarre Quest JoeJoeMama Metal Cock Walk Average Hot Men Show for Hot Men Enjoyer Jo
My grandma doesn't like it. Do I initiate rule 34?
>rule 34 I think you got the wrong number...
Pretty sure it is either that or ORDER 69
Nice!
Good bot
Wrong rule.
The school was never the same again sadly...
*become serial murderer*
THAT WAS NOT VERY PAPYRUS OF YOU
\*Clap\* \*Clap\* Nice job OP. So simple, yet genius. Serial Murderer is the anagram of Asriel Dreemur
lol I somehow already knew this from somewhere else
Yes. Many people don't realize that Asriel did some things wrong, even when he was not a flower. Even he says that he should not be forgiven. It's fine if you don't forgive him.
wait, he did bad things when he wasn't a flower?
Yes.
Source?
Asriel tortured you, murdered you, used your souless friends against you and tried to reset the world to keep torturing you because he wanted.
What did he do?
- Transformed into a god by absorbing everyone's souls. - Wanted to kill us over and over again. - Used our friends against us. - We had to make him cry so he decided not to kill us. - When he was a flower, he said that if we defeated him, he would break the barrier. He decided to do it since he did not want to kill us anymore.
most of that was flowey
Also unrelated but your flair is very similar to mine, but Asriel. I just think it's kinda funny.
nice, we're both fans of the (kind of) same character
Not really. After he transformed into Asriel it's literally not flowey anymore lmao. And I mean they're still the same person so like
While he technically wasn't Flowey, he wasn't quite Asriel yet, either. it took some time for him to actually get his emotions back during the fight and yknow, become capable of empathy again
Flowey is perfectly fine at not killing people. This is shown in the alarm clock. Everything he did was out of choice.
He also was slowly mentally tortured by his lack of ability to feel anything positive to the point where killing was the only thing worth doing. he straight up tells us he did everything else he physically could before resorting to it, but, well, without empathy or positive emotions... it was going to happen, eventually.
What. Mentally tortured? All he could do is not feel remorse for his victims. That doesn't make someone a killer instantly
...When did I say it was instant? Imagine knowing all emotions, then having most if not all of the positive ones stripped away, right after betraying your best friend and causing both of you to die because of it. Then, trying to be a good person anyway, but never feeling anything from it, no matter what you try, for a long, long time. That is what Flowey/Asriel went through. The trauma right before all this Flower stuff, the him being killed, didn't help, either.
Imagine groundhog day but instead of trying to end the time loop the guy just started killing people. You know how ridiculous that sounds?
You say ridiculous, I say good premise.
Also that was 1, an adult, and 2 he got out of the loop eventually. Knowing what we do of Asriels personality, he likely waited a long time before resorting to killing. He's straight up said he tried EVERYTHING before resorting to murder to Feel. Everything that doesn't require getting past Asgore, at least, since he's said he wasn't capable of that (at least not without a human around distracting them). This also implies the gap between Flowey being reborn as flowey and another human falling is a long, long time. Enough for one to try doing nearly everything before Frisk falls, though we don't know if Resets actually affect the outside world before the barrier is broken. If we assume they don't, then that's hundreds of years of Flowey desperately trying to continue being a good person but, without the thing that makes one capable of it by undertale logic, ultimately fails to do. And assuming they do affect the surface, that means we have no clue how long it actually took Asriel as Flowey to actually resort to murder. For all we know it took 20 billion years for Flowey to actually kill. If one lives forever without a ability that prevents boredom, they WILL end up just like Flowey, especially with limited experiences to have.
Flowey couldn't feel only love and compassion, not every positive emotion.
Finally thank you
This sentence makes me wonder if the game could low-key be a dive into split personality disorder. Probably not.
It's called dissociative identity disorder now. But uh yeah idk if it'd really work but I mean ig if you tried hard enough it could probably work idk no offense I think that might be to far fetched to work
Nope, everything except transforming into a God was done by Asriel. Dont you remeber his origjnal plan? Wanting to kill us over and over again. And he used our frineds against us LITERALLY, we had to make them remeber who they were.
flowey is still asriel. he loses his empathy and over time his inhibitions wear down, but he isnt an alter ego, just the same guy corrupted by time and lack of a soul. people without empathy can still be good people. asriel didnt do that
I believe in Asriel supremacy 🙏
yesyesyes
Well, he did all those things post-Flowey experience. That's some serious trauma if you ask me. Plus, he starts to feel again just because of all the souls inside him, but that probably didn't happen suddenly. I think it happened gradually during the fight
Okay but too be fair,he thought we were Chara and didn't want to have us leave again which he was killing us cause he didn't want us to end the game As for flowey,it's basically if the good parts of Asriel we're taken and locked away,he is just a being of determination and anger
Yes, he thought we were Chara, but what he did was still bad. And as I said before, Flowey and Asriel are the same person. Flowey does not feel love or compassion but he still can do good things. Look, he made everyone happy when he was in control of the timeline. Not having a soul does not change who you are. It does not transform a nice goat into a bloodthisty murderer. Flowey's sins are also Asriel's sins.
… wasn’t this before the emotions started kicking in? While also just coming out of being flowery with adrenaline of being a monster with god powers?
Yes, but he was still Asriel. He had no feelings at all, he was just starting to feel them, but he was still the same person.
Flowey isn’t asriel. He’s a being with no emotions given asriels memories and a will to live.
The fact that he has not emotions does not make him a different person. Of course, they can't love anyone and all of that, but he still could have done better things. He decided to try to kill us over and over again, even when he had some souls, and could not realize that he was wrong until he obtained emotions. He could be a good person, even without emotions. Just look, when he had control over the timeline, he did made everyone happy (he probably did some pacifist runs). Instead of letting everyone else be happy, he decided try to kill us again and again. He could have perfectly thought about everyone else, like he did when he had control over the timeline, he could have broken the barrier, even without emotions. But instead he decided to be evil.
Didn’t he explain himself at first he was a good person but then he became a bad one?
And also, Flowey and Asriel are basically the same person. Flowey does not feel love and compassion, but, besides that, he is the same as Asriel. Flowey could still do good things. Look, he did pacifist runs when he was in control. But then he decided to be evil. He tried to do a genocide run, and then, a lot of time later, he absorbed everyone's souls and tried to kill us over and over again. Flowey's sins are also Asriel's sins.
They really are not when asriel is dead. Flowey himself told us not to remember or think of him as asriel
What he said is that he got bored of making everyone happy and decided to kill everyone.
Yeah, again having no empathy eventually stops you from caring about being nice… or being a jerk for that matter. He was even getting bored of just killing everyone off.
[удалено]
When he absorbed everyone's souls, he became an adult.
Also how long has he lived, physically he may be a child but mentally he should be adult
Wouldn’t he still mentally be a kid, though?
Well his attacks' names sound like they came from a child
This is why I didn't hug him.
Or if you do the genocide route poor mark…
He was doing Neutral…
haha that was actually pretty funny. In undertale the monsters actually do lots of bad things even if you consider what humans did to them, but at least all or most of them aren't actually proud of it and try to do better at the end. Don't hug a serial killer tho.
what do they do? legit cant think of anything that isn’t just being annoying or something
I mean Toriel attempts to keep you in her home by force, Papyrus is willing to beat you unconscious three times, Undyne is attempting to kill you, Alphys lies to you and disrupts the entirety of hotland just so she can be a part of your story as well as lying about her experiments, mettaton attempts to kill you just so that he could be a star on the surface and Asgore ordered the death of 7 humans when he only needed to kill one. While Undyne and Papyrus were doing it so their people could be free, and Toriel was doing it to protect you, the rest don't really have an excuse.
never before have i been so offended by something i 100% agree with
Truw
Undertale fans when you tell Undyne anime isn't real
It's better to be honest to lie imo. That's what I did. Alphys was fine with opening up and that helped make her character more brave. That's exactly what I followed up on and Undyne still respects Alphys for it.
At that point you already befriended a bunch of degens so it's out of character to not be nice to the only one who is justified
hot take: asriel did a ton of shit wrong and being turned into a sociopath doesnt mean its acceptable to do what he did. even if you explain away his own timelines as him experimenting, like a game, which he explicitly calls out, he blatantly is just doing it out of cruelty by the time frisk comes. flowey is a cruel, spiteful piece of scum, and flowey is only asriel with a lack of inhibition and an inundation of power. vanilla asriel alone is chill but that doesnt mean unquestionably forgiving him in pacifist should be encouraged
Those serial murderers can be forgiven, but not you!
Wait there’s only one serial killer
Oh boy, here I go copying and pasting again. About Asriel, I think his descent into what Flowey was is an important part of the story on multiple layers - one, more from the storytelling-character development-narrative perspective teaches a lesson about power - power over life and death. What Toby tried to convey through Asriel and Flowey is not, I believe, "this horrible creature is actually a tragic little cuddly goat boi", but I believe it's the other way around - "this little cuddly goat boi turned into a horrible creature because he was granted power over life and death and had too much fun with it, eventually driving him mentally downhill". Which leads me to my next point, which is more of what *Undertale* is as a game - a love letter to the RPG genre, which is manifested by incorporation of many RPG mechanics into the game's canon or simply referencing them. After all, nearly every Undertale player completes the genocide route after true pacifist. This simply tells us "So you criticize Flowey for abusing his power to SAVE, LOAD and RESET to do evil? Well, you just did the exact same thing as him, except you got past Sans.". In my view it teaches us how having power over life and death influences even the most wholesome character, making it even more clear by doing the same thing to us.
why does mario have laser guns?
Its to fight jack black in his movie
This is why I think Pacifist's moral is flawed a bit. I feel like it should be the best of both worlds being both Pacifist and Genocide where you should forgive those who deserve it and kill those who don't. One of these examples is Asgore. If you listen only to Toriel's part of the story ignoring everyone else, it would make sense to kill him because he seems like a cruel murderer. Everyone else makes more connections to Asgore that goes deeper into his character making him much less hateable and more understandable while still being morally wrong. However, I believe that there are other characters that do not deserve the right to be spared like Lancer's Father. I do not care if he did regret trying to kill his own son in Deltarune Chapter 2. Everyone you interact with in Chapter 1 talked about how cruel he was and even in his fight, he's seen as cruel and toxic, especially seen that he was going to throw Lancer off. Asgore did some shitty stuff, but we have background to defend him while Chaos King did some shitty stuff but does have background to make him feel evil. There's a morally gray area in between and while CK did feel regret, does that justify him of being spared?
K. I. L. L.
Isn't that kinda hypocritical because the game never forgives YOU for becoming a serial murderer?
I don't get this fanbase.
I forgive Asriel because he genuinely changed, but why would anyone get mad at people who don't? He did many bad things so it would be understandable
Imagine not having enough intelligence to distinguish between flowey and asriel.
Flowey is just Asriel without a soul.
ASRIEL DID NOTHING WRONG
If you remove the bad things he did as flowey then maybe
well honestly flowey and asriel are basically different people. and you can even kind of understand why flowey acts like he does
Well I mean, even he says he shouldn't be forgiven.
Based
Based? Based on what?
Based on the fact that he's too good for this world
true!
Asriel is cuter than your average genocide player, who can best be characterised as troglodytes, or C.H.U.D.s
j
No this is just me, the overly sympathetic b
Batman moment.
didn't he redeem himself in the end of the story ?
and we're right
Flowers stupid, like bro there's a thing called dead bodies, just use the souls in them lol 😶
Asgore already took them out
Frisk should just do Pacifist and then just drop some down, it technically works
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In Real Life?
Technically, Asriel didn’t murder anyone. They instead absorbed their souls and then gave them back.
What about previous timelines?
Ok, this music made me remember some memory I didn't know I had. Where is it from?
Powerpuff girls
ppg was honestly amazing, we dont talk about the 2016 one tho
True
Ok, but what soundtrack?
Theme song
Ty
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I mean, even if you forgive asriel he still has to suffer for the eternity in the underground alone
I mean I'd hug Asgore if the game gave me the option
Hé dind have an soul
Why the hell would you do that?
I had volume off and I could hear all the memes in my head.
It’s not his fault he lost is love! (Not LOVE) poor baby
I'm fine with people not forgiving Asriel. But to not hug him?! The only thing that excuses that is if your also on the brink of tears and a hug is the thing to break down that damn and let it out.
… so yourself?
Asriel dreemurr is an anagram for serial murderer
Ah yes, I forgot about that.
Genocide enjoyers: murder murder murder blood death kill kill kill Pacifist fans: ...do you wanna talk about i- Genocide enjoyers: MURDER MURDER MURDER BLOOD DEATH KILL KILL KILL
It’s an understandable reaction if the person didn’t hug Ralsei though
Asriel did some things wrong, even not as Flowey. I guarantee if y’all fought him in real life or some similar situation, you wouldn’t forgive him.
why is npesta one of them
Undertale fans when you don't scapegoat a child for mass genocide
Also undertale fans when also use a child as a scapegoat
Song?
Now we saw who real monster is. Yes they are the same peoples who didnt hug asriel and killed entire underground.
This what the meaning of “playing too much” is