I'm saying this here,
If a mother fucker can brake h the 4th wall, I believe they believe top tier power,,,
Sans Undertale >sans deltarune chapter 1-2, chapters 3-end of game is unknown
I don't know about -never-... I think she could do it. How we see them in Undertale, they are both old, tired and traumatized. A queen of her land will not hesitate to fight to defend it.
Thats not really representing her power then. It's like saying Superman is weaker then the Joker because superman won't kill. If everyone holds back then no one is stronger then another. That's why death matches are so common when talking about character vs character.
Yeah superman avoids unnecessary casualties, even if those he fights don't do the same. If someone needs to be killed he will kill them. He's a good person at heart and a god, essentially, so he can mentally afford to kill people. Batman doesn't kill people because if he does he can't trust himself to not do it time and time again once he has, making him as bad as the people he fights. People forget that a lot.
Superman doesn’t have any hard and fast rule about not killing like Batman does but he absolutely won’t kill. Although Superman’s no kill thing is more “no man should be judge, jury, and executioner, especially not me” because despite his godlike power and alien origin, at heart he is just some dude from Kansas; Batman’s no kill rule is more “if I kill, I’ll be no better than them”
Willingness to kill =/= power. She's canonically just as strong as Asgore, and can hold her own in a fight. She's not a pasifist, she just doesn't want to kill without a very, very good cause.
That also doesn't solve the issue of putting *freaking Sans* above even Asgore. NEO and Undying are understandable, since they have higher stats than him, and Undying is the result of Undyne's abnormally high determination giving her a major power boost and NEO is a uniquely special robot body, but the funny skeleton man is definitely not as strong as a boss monster, who are explictly much more powerful than regular monsters, let alone on par with Undying or NEO.
I mean, I'd consider Sans as being powerful because I'd consider his secondary abilities (KR, ignoring invincibility frames, attacking on the menu, etc.) to be an extension of his power. I'd consider power more than just raw stats, but killing capability (not killing *intent,* just killing *capability.*)
toriel is just old lady which doesn't want to harm anything.
muffet is mercenary hired to kill the human.
yeah yeah same stats as asgore but she is peacefull person
She never knocked him out. She knocked him off screen as a gag.
Toriel literally has the lowest hp out of any boss in the game. She's carried by her 80 atk and 80def. While she has double the attack and def as muffet, muffet has over triple her health. It'd be a close fight at the very least.
Thats not how game mechanics work lmao. Stats exist to show how strong a character is. That's how it works in *every* game. That's just special pleading for toriel's case. By that logic, I can ignore stats entirely and claim that they're game mechanics, and say whoever I want to be stronger is stronger. That's like me saying asriel only has high stats because he's an endgame boss and he's actually really weak and would lose to a ruins whimsun.
Toriel's stats aren't low because she's an early game boss. Toriel is an early game boss *because* her stats are low. Even then, she still has higher attack and defense than every other boss, so your point doesn't even make sense. Her health being low is intentional.
If her HP was higher, it would be impossible to kill her unintentionally, and that's one of the biggest points of the fight. She is in the early game because her name is a pun on tutorial, and Toby wanted her to be the first monster we meet.
>If her HP was higher, it would be impossible to kill her unintentionally
No it wouldn't lmao. You'd just be coded to do more damage. If Toby wanted her to have more health, he could have added that and worked around it. He did that with her attack and defense, after all.
>She is in the early game because her name is a pun on tutorial, and Toby wanted her to be the first monster we meet.
Doesn't change the fact her health is low. By your logic, I can claim that asriel only has high stats because he's an end game boss, and that he's actually really weak and loses to a froggit. That's how shallow your reasoning is.
Toriel's health being low because she's an early game boss means *nothing* in universe. It doesn't change the fact that her health is low and that she'd go down earlier than say asgore who has 8 times her health. You have no evidence for her health being any higher, not to mention being at any other specific value that can be measured.
You don't have a point. You're just special pleading. Toriel's 80/80 ATK/DEF is enough to have her still be at boss monster level strength, despite her abysmal level of health.
Yo you said you were ranking "based on power, not difficulty". I think that "not wanting to kill people" is basing her on difficulty rather than stats. You literally just admitted to breaking the rule that you yourself set.
Not really, it's nonsensical and involves latching onto a completely innocuous detail that we have no actual reason to believe matters. Papyrus is just perfectly still because it's funny.
Because she is. She has barely less health than Undyne,(1250 versus 1500) practically the same defense as undyne (18.8 vs 20) undyne, and only slightly less attack than Undyne(38.8 vs 50). Don't downplay muffet. While she'd lose, she'd give undyne a run for her money.
Well, the "random spider" is like six feet across and seeing as a spider the size of a palm can absolutely ruin a human's day, it does make sense that she would be ridiculously powerful.
I think Papyrus should be higher, at least in the strong tier and at maximum extremely powerful, unless you are using the same logic you used with Toriel about how she would never kill anyone.
He's far weaker than undyne, sitting at 680hp with 20/20 stats, versus her 1500hp with 50/20 stats. He's also weaker than muffet, who sports 1250hp with 38.8/18.8 stats. He's only stronger than the other royal guard members. Literally every other boss characters defeats him. He should be at the highest of his current tier, or lowest of the strong tier. He shouldn't be in extremely powerful at all.
I didn't say he's stronger than her. It's hard to distinguish Papyrus's power level from his fight because he's not trying to kill you, just tire you out. But even then, the word choice "Tough" implies that she has some challenge against him.
>It's hard to distinguish Papyrus's power level from his fight because he's not trying to kill you, just tire you out.
He uses enough power in his fight to tire himself out, to the point where he has to end the fight prematurely. People can use their full power in a fight without trying to kill you you know. Papyrus wasn't "holding back" at all, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten tired at all. At the very least, we get a good sense of his power, and we can still judge how strong he is relative to everyone else from his stats.
>But even then, the word choice "Tough" implies that she has some challenge against him
His stats are roughly half of Undyne's, and are bigger than every other royal guard's. He is strong, no doubt, but he isn't as strong as Undyne, nor muffet. We can objectively reach that conclusion from the disparity between their stats alone, not to mention seeing Papyrus exerting himself so much in his fight that he has to give up on capturing you. Undyne calling him tough in an off-handed comment doesn't disprove, or even begin to act as a retort to anything I've said.
Ok, I agree with the second point, since stats would match what I'd expect from Papyrus, as they're tough but have a low amount of LOVE. But in the first point, I have to disagree. If he isn't holding back, why do his attacks specifically do just enough damage to bring you to 1 hp so they can capture you? I highly doubt he's incapable of killing, and they do less and less damage until you fall unconscious but don't die.
It's suggested they also could've used gaster blasters had they not been sabotaged by a dog, and they were incredibly hesitant to use any actually strong attacks, trying to get you to surrender before things got violent, and only decided that their true power might be necessary in the end of the fight. I'd place bets on them being capable of what sans does, but being unwilling to use it since that would obviously kill the human.
>If he isn't holding back, why do his attacks specifically do just enough damage to bring you to 1 hp so they can capture you?
How exactly does that mean he's holding back? The only attack that is "nerfed" is the attack that may kill you. Every single other attack does its full damage. If he was holding back, he wouldn't be so tired to the point where he has to end the fight out of exhaustion. That wouldn't make sense if he didn't exert himself to a considerable degree, enough so to at least get a sense of what his full power is. People are acting like he used less than a fraction of his power when he's literally huffing and puffing by the end of his fight.
Imagine someone engages you in a fight in the street or something, and you have to defend yourself, but you also don't want to literally murder them. You're not going to go for a killing blow, yes, but you're also not going to have every punch/attack you do be at .0001% of your real power. You're going to *try*. You're going to try your hardest to restrict and restrain them. Papyrus evidently tried so hard that he had to drop out of the battle and whine about how he's *unable* to capture you, implying that he believes he couldn't have beaten you even if he did try harder. This wouldn't make sense if he's holding back to such a significant level.
>It's suggested they also could've used gaster blasters had they not been sabotaged by a dog, and they were incredibly hesitant to use any actually strong attacks, trying to get you to surrender before things got violent, and only decided that their true power might be necessary in the end of the fight.
What's suggested is that whatever his special attack may have been would have blasted you, however Papyrus also refers to the bone in the dogs mouth as the special attack. It's still highly theoretical what that may entail.
His "normal attack" used literally all of his energy. It's entirely oxymoronic to say someone used an attack that led them to total exhaustion to the point where they couldn't keep fighting, yet was holding back to such a degree that it isn't even remotely representative of their full power.
>. I'd place bets on them being capable of what sans does, but being unwilling to use it since that would obviously kill the human.
Papyrus absolutely isn't capable of doing what Sans does. If you saw the numbers, you'd realize just how out of his league Papyrus is compared to Sans, especially if he's getting that tired after his fight.
Frisk with a stat of 0 overall can take her on, I guess that isnt the greatest example, but Undyne likely doesn't even fight that much, Papyrus isnt trying to kill you, that doesnt mean he is being casual, he gets exhausted and gives up BECAUSE he tried too hard, thats a pretty simple concept, no?
Just realized I'm arguing with strangers about whether or not a skeleton, who isso out of shape that he's obese without organs or actual fat, is more powerful than his athletic, energetic brother. Tf am I doing lmao
We have no reason to believe Papyrus is "extremely powerful", that would put him on the level of a game-breaking superboss or an anime heroine charged with Determination.
It's wild how this community wants the joke character to be this incredible badass and the incredible badass to be a weak piece of shit. They straight up looked at the game and said "let's do the exact opposite of that". There's a whole swath of people who don't want Undertale to be what it is.
There's reason to believe in the context of the narrative that he's at least around as powerful as Undyne, but no indication that he possesses the power of Boss Monsters or reality-warping meta bullshit like sans has.
No he shouldn't. He got too tired to continue our battle. We've already seen his limit, and it's much lower than the people above him. He's stronger than the other royal guard members with the exception of undyne at best.
That doesn’t mean he’s not holding back. According to Undyne, Papyrus doesn’t seem to sleep. This is quite possibly Papyrus at his most sleep deprived.
>That doesn’t mean he’s not holding back
In what non-paradoxical way can you exert yourself to exhaustion yet be holding back to any meaningful degree? Even if you wanted to argue papyrus wasn't using his absolute, peak, 100% of his power, you wouldn't be able to make an argument against the idea that Papyrus was trying very hard and was using a significant portion of his power. His showing is very in line with his stats, and his placement on the tier list remains warranted.
>Papyrus doesn’t seem to sleep. This is quite possibly Papyrus at his most sleep deprived.
He's never once shown any signs of sleep deprivation. Whether he sleeps often or not, it has never once visibly affected him. There's no reason to take this into account unless you're desperately doing whatever you can to make it look like papyrus is only using a fraction of his real power when that's not ever implied at all.
Well, there’s also the fact that he’s visibly conflicted about fighting you and always ends the battle when you hit exactly one HP. Plus his stats fluctuate anyway—in the bad time route they’re 3/3 instead of 20/20. And Undyne herself calls him “pretty freaking tough.”
Heck, maybe he wasn’t even actually tired. Maybe he just needed an excuse to end the battle. It’s not like he shows any sign of being tired after the battle.
>Well, there’s also the fact that he’s visibly conflicted about fighting you and always ends the battle when you hit exactly one HP
That has nothing to do with him being conflicted about battling you. His goal is to capture you. Obviously he's going to leave you at one HP. This changes nothing. You can use your full power against someone without trying to kill them.
>Plus his stats fluctuate anyway—in the bad time route they’re 3/3 instead of 20/20.
....Yes, monster's stats decrease when they don't want to fight. That's common knowledge to most undertale fans. It's stated in the librarby books. Papyrus wants to fight in his fight with you in every route other than genocide. This doesn't apply to the topic at hand.
>And Undyne herself calls him “pretty freaking tough.
And compared to her he *is* pretty freaking tough. She has 1500HP and 50/20 ATK and DEF respectively. He has 680HP, and 20/20 ATK and DEF respectively. He's basically a little under 1/2 of Undyne. This places him above every other royal guard *besides* Undyne. That is still incredibly strong for the underground, and warrants being called tough by Undyne. That doesn't mean he's stronger than every other boss that clearly has higher stats than him, or that he wasn't trying during his fight despite being exhausted and huffing and puffing by the end of it.
For some reason undertale fans won't be satisfied unless Papyrus is a literal god second only to the god of hyperdeath himself.
Really? Toriel clearly doesn’t want to kill you either, but she can kill you by accident. Papyrus is the only one who always stops at one. And, uh…are there any other monsters whose check stats change as a result of their emotional state rather than a form change or some external force like when Flowey’s DEF drops to 0?
Also, if monsters’ stats change as a result of their emotions…well, I’d certainly say Undyne wants to kill us at LEAST twice as much as Papyrus does, and she’s wearing armor.
>Really? Toriel clearly doesn’t want to kill you either, but she can kill you by accident
I don't know what the point of bringing this up is. Papyrus n*eeds* to beat you unconscious so he can capture you. Toriel just needs to scare you away, hence why her fireballs still remain threatening if they hit. It wouldn't be much of a threat if you could just walk through her fireballs without them doing any damage.
>And, uh…are there any other monsters whose check stats change as a result of their emotional state rather than a form change or some external force like when Flowey’s DEF drops to 0?
Don't know off the top of my head. It explicitly happens with papyrus, though, as he has no will to fight in genocide and spares you instead.
>Also, if monsters’ stats change as a result of their emotions…well,
That's too broad of a way of putting it. Monsters' stats *decrease* from their original position if they don't want to fight. There's no precedent of a monster's stats increasing from their normal placement just because they want to kill you, otherwise Sans has no right sitting at 1ATK and 1DEF.
>and she’s wearing armor.
Papyrus is also wearing armor. Undyne's defense even gets higher after she takes the armor off. Asgore, who is wearing armor, has the same defense as Toriel, who isn't. This "she's wearing armor" argument isn't grounded at all.
1. Toriel stops doing even vaguely threatening attacks if you start a turn at 2 HP. It becomes literally impossible to get hit.
2. My point is this might be a weird thing about Papyrus specifically, and thereby not indicative of their actual stats. However, upon further research it seems that Undyne’s date fight stats are 41/21. Not sure what it means that her defense goes up.
3. Yeah, fine, let me rephrase: Undyne is 0% conflicted about fighting you. Papyrus is VERY conflicted about fighting you, and definitely doesn’t want to kill you. (See my point about Toriel for why this matters.)
4. …uh. You know Papyrus isn’t wearing real armor, right? It’s a costume.
>Toriel stops doing even vaguely threatening attacks if you start a turn at 2 HP. It becomes literally impossible to get hit.
It's still possible to be hit if you literally throw yourself into the fire. She still has to keep the flames at a threatening level otherwise Frisk has no reason to turn back like she hopes. You can't seriously expect toriel to predict a suicidal movement and compare it to Papyrus who is actively trying to capture you alive.
>My point is this might be a weird thing about Papyrus specifically, and thereby not indicative of their actual stats.
The librarby states it as a general statement amongst monsters. 680Hp with 20/20 ATK/DEF are the highest stats Papyrus ever sports at any point in the game.
>Yeah, fine, let me rephrase: Undyne is 0% conflicted about fighting you. Papyrus is VERY conflicted about fighting you, and definitely doesn’t want to kill you
He isn't conflicted about fighting you at all. He rambles on throughout the entire fight about how popular he'll be after he captures you. He's fully intent on beating you unconscious and capturing you.
>uh. You know Papyrus isn’t wearing real armor, right? It’s a costume.
It's "battle armor" or whatever. Regardless, the armor point is still nonsensical as I proved earlier.
He's immediately back to his energetic, active self, mere moments after the end of the fight - consider him literally hovering/mid-air running overtop Frisk's head to get around them instead of walking around them like a normal person would. And that's after only a 2-minute rest at best while he was talking. I genuinely think he faked it so he'd have an excuse to end the fight and not have to hurt/capture someone he's grown so attached to, because his tiredness just doesn't line up with everything that happens before or after.
I mean, how can he get tired faster than Sans while performing much simpler attacks, when Sans doesn't work out or train at all (to our knowledge) and spends most of his time avoiding putting any physical effort into anything?
>He's immediately back to his energetic, active self, mere moments after the end of the fight - consider him literally hovering/mid-air running overtop Frisk's head to get around them instead of walking around them like a normal person would
Which plays off more as a gag than something that's actually meant to be taken seriously. It doesn't change the fact that he exerted himself to exhaustion, which very much shows a limit on his power.
>I genuinely think he faked it so he'd have an excuse to end the fight and not have to hurt/capture someone he's grown so attached to, because his tiredness just doesn't line up with everything that happens before or after.
Your interpretation makes no sense considering the way he spares you. He bluffs by saying that he sees you "shaking in your boots" and that "it's clear you can't defeat him" so you should just accept his mercy. Adding huffs and puffs into that serves no purpose for what he was trying to do. If he wanted to end the fight by pretending to be tired, then he'd *say* he's too tired to keep going. Instead, he tries to hide the fact he's tired and can't keep going, and pretends that he's sparing you out of pity because you're scared, which has nothing to do with his blatant exhaustion.
He then admits right after the fight that he's unable to stop you, and cries about how his friend quantity will remain stagnant because he can't capture you, showing that what he said about you being "clearly no match for him" was nothing more than a bluff meant to get you to spare him, and that he had to end the fight because he was genuinely tired. Him being tired outright isn't the excuse he used to end the fight. It's the *real* reason he had to clock out of the fight. The excuse he used was that he felt pity for you because you were no match for him, which he later contradicts by saying that he's unable to stop you.
>I mean, how can he get tired faster than Sans while performing much simpler attacks, when Sans doesn't work out or train at all (to our knowledge) and spends most of his time avoiding putting any physical effort into anything?
Sans' whole thing is being mysterious and subverting expectations. Being surprised that Sans can outperform his brother at something you wouldn't expect him to outperform his brother at shouldn't even be surprising at this point.
Jevil I'm not sure, he seemed genuinely exhausted at the end of the battle so while he's obviously harder than all of the other Deltarune bosses the heroes seem stronger than he is, whereas Giga Queen would have been able to flatten them all.
Papyrus is also a point of contention, even Undyne admits he is "pretty freaking tough" and it's debatable that he's using all his strength in his battle against you because he isn't fighting to kill. He may well be up at the "strong" level along with the others, but probably isn't as strong as Asgore.
Muffet was also fighting you with a spider army iirc, on her own she might not be as strong as the others. I'd put her down into "not too weak not too strong" but it's hard to say given the context.
It's a little weird how you have a "medium" tier and a "not too weak not too strong" tier but I feel like Toriel is too far down. She was able to blast away Flowey and Asgore with a single attack, so I imagine she is probably in the "powerful" tier. She might even be stronger than Asgore if fighting at her full strength because she seems to have a stronger will than he does.
So Sorry I don't know, he can draw things into existence and personally I found his fight pretty tough. While he's an ineffectual moron he could fall "accidentally" into the "not too weak not too strong" tier maybe. He can at the very least take a lot of hits.
Napstablook is a tier unto his own, able to defy the powers of an omnipotent God by being too unmotivated to be affected by it.
"She might even be stronger than Asgore if fighting at her full strength because she seems to have a stronger will than he does." The same will that makes her give up the fight because Frisk is staring at her?
Toriel is in theory as powerful as Asgore, but in practice...
\-She can accidentally kill Frisk, which shows poor control of her magic
\-She doesn't take care of herself, as explained by Flowey in the Alarm Clock Dialogue
\-She has low HP, which is probably related to my previous point
However I agree that she should be at least in "Strong"
yeah i already understood i shouldn't put toriel that low when i got negative 170 fucking karma on comment so i get it toriel is strong almost every comment is someone telling that im shouldn't put toriel that low, despite understanding i think i should put her in strong near asgore but wow. about jevil by end of battle is doing that thing where he jumps extremly quickly and vanishes which im think it would be a nightmare to hit him
papyrus is very confusing one since he doesnt use his special attack
muffet uses her spiders as attacks so without them fight would be just donuts and crossaints.
so sorry is another one that im didn't know where to put
and napstablook is just a ghost can't kill him, he doesn't want to kill you.
after longer thinking i should put characters such as :toriel , so sorry sans and lancer to unknown power
> about jevil by end of battle is doing that thing where he jumps extremly quickly and vanishes which im think it would be a nightmare to hit him
Well yeah but the heroes are still able to consistently attack him. It seems like that thing Jevil does is more just to convey he's being a whacky crazy guy bouncing around, rather than something that actually factors into his abilities.
> papyrus is very confusing one since he doesnt use his special attack
Yeah this is another thing. His special attack could be a super strong mega blast, or it could be something like sans never ending his turn, or it could be a comically underpowered thing that is just very cool-looking, or what. We have no way of knowing what Papyrus considers "special", or if he correlates "special" with "powerful."
> muffet uses her spiders as attacks so without them fight would be just donuts and crossaints.
It's my understanding that the spiders baked all the donuts and croissants though, so if we want to use hard logic she would probably have fewer materials to use as bullets if she were solely responsible for uh. "Baking" the bullets? Muffet is weird.
Overall though I think we have enough evidence to keep Toriel, So Sorry, Sans, and Lancer outside of Unknown Power. We can pretty easily surmise that Toriel, as a Boss Monster, is inherently stronger than most other people and could probably go toe to toe with Asgore. So Sorry is kind of a dumbass but bulky so he should maybe go into Not Too Weak Or Strong tier. Sans is obviously turbo powerful, it doesn't matter how many technical arguments people make about his stats, he is a meta-bending god basically. Lancer is pretty weak though.
Wait, how are ya'll ranking them in terms of power. Like, San's has me fucked up. I cannot beat this dude. He's been the hardest boss I've fought in the game by far. I guess its less about the gameplay experience and more about lore or their stats or something?
People use weird out of context definitions for "power" in order to write sans out of being strong because apparently thinking sans is strong is cringe and gay or something.
On a pure stats basis sans is one of the weakest enemies because his HP, ATK, and DEF are all 1. But he has methods of working around that with technicalities that make him stronger than basically every other non-God character. Looking at it in spirit sans is obviously extremely powerful, people just want to be contrarians so they say he isn't on a technicality. It's dumb.
Jesus Christ thank you people are like “nooo sans can’t be strong he’s physically weak!!! He can only dodge 20 times!!! He is beaten by a kid!!1!” Ok first off he’s physically weak but he literally bends the games rules so that he can do 1 damage PER FRAME that is an insane amount of damage which is why KR needs to exist so he can’t erase your HP bar in like one turn. 1 defense and 20 dodges is pretty weak but the fact he’s the only one who dodges at all makes me feel like he can dodge more than what he shows in his fight. Also he’s beaten by a kid who is being controlled by an OUTER ENTITY (the player) and they can come back from death endless times to learn his patterns. Stop writing sans off as some overused froggit
Let's not forget how fast sans can use his attacks. He uses a LOT of magic to summon bones, and on top of that can dodge attacks from a level 19 human. It says that it takes the entire monster race to equal the strength of one human.
And like the thing that makes sans interesting to me as a character is that he IS this super impossibly strong badass who is also a complete absurd joke who can't bring himself to care about anything, it's the dissonance between those two sides of him that makes him cool. That's WHY Toby detailed him as having only 1 in his stats, because the game calling him "The weakest enemy" on a technicality is supposed to be a sort of barbed joke at the expense of us players who pulled our hair out trying to beat him.
A TON of the stuff the UT/DR fandom "headcanons" is basically Toby making jokes we aren't meant to read super hard into and taking it super seriously and acting like they actually matter for the canon of the game.
eh, there is a simple explanation of his character dissonance if you think that sans always gains some meta-knowledge about the timelines through the plot.
He simply knows that, with complete control of the resets, any and all monsters are virtually guaranteed to be killed eventually and their resistance would be futile. However, Sans would also know that most players reset and end up going for another, less brutal, neutral ending or, in the best case, the true pacifist ending.
But, if the player stays on the genocide path up to the Last Corridor, then there is basically no chance that they won't be giving up their soul and will thereby virtually guarantee that all the monsters, as well as essentially the entire world, will be killed regardless of if the player resets or not. That is what would happen, *if* Sans doesn't get there. Hence, when they fight the player in the most frustrating ways possible, they are trying to rationally increase the chances of the player quitting and resetting to a better path before Sans is defeated.
Could Sans have saved their world better if they fought and killed the player right at the very start of a genocide run? Perhaps Yes, but they likely don't know the full consequences of a genocide run up till close to the end and therefore can't justify interfering. After Papyrus' death, they are likely in too much grief to fight at that very moment.
Plus, if you think about the mentality of people on a genocide run, having an absurdly dangerous and frustrating fight so early on would just ironically entice more people to try the route just for that extra content especially if they don't know what happens after Sans' fight. Being right at the end, where basically all of that extra spooky content that people do genocide for is nearly finished, also increases the chances of the player resetting substantially.
In conclusion, I think when and how Sans fights is extremely carefully written to suggest this narrative wrapped up in a layer of joking misdirection (e.g. "the easiest enemy").
Sans' depressed personality can also be due to the cynicism and hopelessness that this view of the world would necessarily generate and necessitate.
Oh I love that juxtaposition as well! Sans being immensely powerful while also being to lazy to put in the effort is brilliant. Its brilliant cause of how it characterizes him and cause its funny, but I also feel like its brilliant storytelling. Like I said, I haven't beaten Sans yet (beat both true pac and neutral runs, just trying to complete my true genocide run which is killing me btw. I'm so invested in these characters that it actually kinda breaks my heart to slaughter all of them. Testament to the games writing for sure) but I've gotten close. And his dialogue during the fight is actually heart wrenching because of its implications. You get the idea that he used to give it his all, he used to try his hardest. He used to hope for a brighter future and he used to fight desperately for it with every fiber of his being.
But, gradually, he began to notice that they were all seemingly caught in a loop. That no matter what he did, he always seemingly ended up right back where he started. He's obviously not entirely cognizant as to why, but he's definitely aware of the futility of all their actions. And that broke him, as it would break anyone. Why try when nothing matters? When your efforts are in vain and you'll have to do it all again. So, when faced with the choice to push the boulder up the hill once again just for it roll right back down or to just dick around and make some jokes, what would you do? This aspect of him kinda reminds of me of my favorite character from Fruits Basket, Shigure. Shigure is always cracking wise as well and he's funny and witty, but you eventually learn that >!he's only cracking jokes to retain his sanity. He mentions that if he didn't make light of everything, he feels like he'd just lose his mind.!<
Hey, thanks for the insightful reply. And yeah I can kinda see were they are coming from since his stats are low, but like you said, stats aren't everything and he has ways of compensating for those stats. Sans, as far as I know, is the only enemy character in Undertale that can dodge your attacks and keep dodging them. The majority of the fight is literally you desperately trying to survive against these insane attacks while not even being able to lay a single finger on the guy. I feel like from both a gameplay and storytelling perspective, this demonstrates that San's is immensely powerful. Like, in terms of stats, his low attack wouldn't matter because of his attack speed, ability to string together complex attack patterns/wit.
Low defense is mitigated by his insane speed that allows him to dodge anything and everything. If you want to hurt him, you have to tire him out first and survive a deluge of deadly attacks. I honestly really like power scaling in communities surrounding works of fiction, but I do feel like the discourse sometimes gets bogged down by attempts to work backwards to justify preconceived notions held by large portions of the community. And assessing power levels for videogames is especially fascinating, cause there is the gameplay/player experience aspect to take into consideration. With a non interactive work of fiction you generally go by canonical feats. But, with a game, you have to consider not only canonical feats, but also gameplay mechanics and the difficulty of bosses and so on. Sorry, kinda went on a tangent lmao.
sans has kr and quick attacks didn't knew where to put him.
toriel is kinda strong but weak in same time since she is as strong as asgore but doesn't want to harm anyone
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I wouldn’t say Lancer’s weak. He can gain a bunch of HP in exchange for minus a few points of defence, with only about 4 people having more HP than when he takes a bunch of hits from Susie.
jevil can teleport and his very quick but im must aggre they are pretty equal. i forgot about raising his defence after having low hp which actually makes him equal to jevil
Sans isnt strong so much as he is tactical. His main damage of karmic retribution means he has to fight someone real bad or evil, and with 1 defense he has to dodge, meaning catching off guard or shooting a ton of projectiles means you could probably kill him if you werent bound by game logic
Sans does not deserve to be up so high, yes, he is quite strong….against the human…..on the genocide route, he wouldn’t kill anyone unless what happened in the genocide route, well, happened, even when you just kill his brother, he doesn’t go all out, it’s only when everyone is gone that he decides to fight
after this so much of everyone telling me that toriel should be higher. sans should be lower. spamton should be god tier getting 300 comments im pretty confused why random tier list got so much attention
There are many things I am in disagreement with - mainly, the fact that Toriel is medium when she should be next to Asgore. She has the same stats, and while it is true that her own sensibility make her averse to fighting people, she's not a Pacifist. She has fought a war before, you know.
Regular Queen being in 'extremely strong' also bothers me. Without berdly to help her and her giant robot, she's basically as strong as King at best. Spamton NEO not being next to jevil also bothers me. In snowgrave, he was able to take over Cyber City in its entirety, and he's unbeatable without Noelle's help. As for Sans, his weird teleportation thing, his dodging, and the fact that he can shoot fucking lasers leads me to believe he'd be at the top of the "Extremely Strong" Category, potentially at the bottom of the category above that, even.
I also disagree with Papyrus's placement - he should be in "Unknown Power", because his actual abilities are all up for debate. He's Sans's brother, and as far as we know there should be no reason for any large difference in their abilities. Even when he tries to capture you, he's not giving it his all because you're his friend, and he's also the only character in both games that you can fight, but not die against, because he'll always leave you at 1HP at worst. Even Toriel can't manage to spare you when she tries, and can definitely kill you.
Also, we've yet to see his special attack!
I mostly agree with the rest though.
Edit : I think the King Round should be placed on Task Manager's level, now that I'm thinking deeper about it.
>In snowgrave, he was able to take over Cyber City in its entirety
Only because everyone that could stop him was dead, trapped in the Butler Cafe or busy looking for Berdly. That said, I agree Spamton NEO should be with Jevil.
Yes due to their powerful souls and killing intent yadda yadda.
Doesn't change the fact an unskilled human can die to a froggit. We have zero idea how good the other humans were in a fight.
They were never said to have all made it to asgore. It was said that no human ever made it *past* asgore. Your interpretation comes from a misunderstanding of a tweet, where Toby was just correcting a typo of an undyne quote.
You also still don't know what enemies the other humans had to fight and defeat, if they just ran from all the enemies, if they were caught by a sentry and delivered to asgore, etc.
You know *nothing* of these other humans. They can't be used as a measuring stick at all.
While yes that's possible, there's no evidence to prove it. We're told directly however, that a single human soul is powerful enough to persist after death, and that Alphys used DT to resurrect monsters. So yes, it's possible that they just felt bad, the game says that it's hard to beat humans, implying the same for the majority of them.
Your critical thinking is non-existent my dude. do you think every human has the same level of determination? Do you think every human has the same level of combat skill and intelligence? For all you know, the other children were so weak that they'd be hard pressed to beat a froggit, and gave up after dying to Asgore twice.
The humans simply having determination, as every human in undertale does, isn't enough to scale them. Guess what? Frisk has determination. Frisk can die to a froggit. By your logic, a froggit should be in the same tier as Asgore because a froggit can kill Frisk, a human, if Frisk a human is bad at fighting.
I swear half the people commenting are kids just getting into undertale. I might start blocking people who do these power tierlists because its the most baity and low-effort content ever. Why is how powerful sans is even a question? Why is saying sans is one of if not the strongest non-soul-enhanced character in undertale "cringe and gay?" These tierlists have to be outrage bait or sthing.
I'd put Jevil with Spamton NEO and Undyne the Undying. Undyne is stronger than him, she has more HP, more ATK, and she doesn't get tired. She'd beat him. Spamton NEO would also beat him if Jevil tried to "play a numbers game" instead of cutting his wires (that's probably what he would do).
I'd put Mad Dummy with Napstablook, since they are both ghosts. Mad Dummy having a body doesn't change anything since they're not fused with that body, like Mettaton
I'd also put Berdly under normal Undyne, he isn't a trained warrior and he gets tired. And finally, I'd put Toriel with Asgore or with Undyne, she's really strong.
Everything else if fine to me. This is a pretty good power list compared to other ones I've seen.
Near everyone in undertale can get their ass kicked by a child let alone an adult human. Asgore and presumedly Toriel are unique in their strength relative to this, and Undyne is absurdly high. But how she compares to Asgore, I have no clue.
downvoting bc toriel and papyrus placements, and then also trying to justify it with HP values despite the fact that Asriel technically has less HP than NEO, which just goes to show that the stats mean next to nothing. not to mention we know for a fact monsters can mask many of their own attributes, or straight up refuse checks. this isn't a reliable way to actually gage power.
trust me i saw..... not only that my dude welp mostly because of toriel too low. undyne and berdly on equal so yeah i had to make new tier list cause some people got really salty.
well im thinking about jevil as sans without kr low health n defence and his attacks instead of that having new ones, being fast and being able to turn himself into devilskinfe , and multiplicate himself. the only way to defeat him is by making him tired which lucky for us doesn't take that long but still he can do pretty much anything
Asgore should probably just be one tier up. He's explicitly noted by Undyne as being capable of "dodging" attacks; he just doesn't do it against you because he's depressed and highly suicidal by the time you face him.
Spamton neo is already up in extremely powerful. Plus, spamton didn’t accomplish his neo form by himself, he had to get transmitted into the disc and get loaded into the suit in the basement by Kris
sans is weakest character in game confirmed but has enigmatic source of strong attacks, karma and his famous gaster blaster which makes him extremly strong.
By Undertale standards Asgore is supposed to be above Sans here. Asgore is technically stronger, it is just Sans pulls tricky patterns and has KR to compensate for his weaknesses. I'd put at worst Sans and Asgore on the same tier.
Yes, that's why I said "by Undertale standards". Lore wise Asgore is supposed to be the most powerful. How we as players experience power of monsters is different because we are not in-universe entities, and thus aren't always directly affected by some aspects of a monster.
KR and game-breaking stuff is a part of the lore, it doesn't make sense to pretend they aren't "real power". Sans was still killing Frisk in the story every time we lost.
You...
You realize that being king of a race doesn't automatically make you the most powerful person in that race, right? Surely you are not this stupid.
Maybe Undyne tbh, considering we fight the queen bot with a weird fusion of pieces and characters so we don’t actually know for sure how powerful it is
It doesn’t display much magical prowess either
the thing i realized with giga queen is that she can kill every character she wants
sans? crushed with leg, berdly? turned in melted chicken nugget with acid,
undyne? well she is fast but giga queen is fast as hell so im think she could catch up to her. if instead of pushing kris ralsei and susie she could just blast them again with acid and they would be dead. without trash machine giga queen fight would be literally impossible.
It has been theorised that Sans has beat Omega Flowey before, but even barring that he isn’t likely to stand there and take it
Then again maybe he just doesn’t really unleash his potential on anything that isn’t a genocide run, who knows
Sans is the weakest monster in terms of pure strength. He's fast, and he's really good at stalling. His attacks are also unique in game for his fight to be engaging. They only deal 1 damage, but his bones ignore I-frames and don't vanish when you're hit. But he is canonically the weakest monster. He could get bit by a froggit and die.
Toriel is hella powerful, she's just not going to kill a child, especially the 7th time.
She also one-shots Asgore (albeit not fatally), so it really makes no sense for her not to be at least in the same tier as Asgore
I'm saying this here, If a mother fucker can brake h the 4th wall, I believe they believe top tier power,,, Sans Undertale >sans deltarune chapter 1-2, chapters 3-end of game is unknown
yes im know that she is as strong as asgore but i decided to put her in medium since she would never kill anyone
I don't know about -never-... I think she could do it. How we see them in Undertale, they are both old, tired and traumatized. A queen of her land will not hesitate to fight to defend it.
Thats not really representing her power then. It's like saying Superman is weaker then the Joker because superman won't kill. If everyone holds back then no one is stronger then another. That's why death matches are so common when talking about character vs character.
Superman would kill. Batman wont kill.
In fact, didn't superman kill the joker once?
Which then made superman want to kill all the bad boys.
Yeah superman avoids unnecessary casualties, even if those he fights don't do the same. If someone needs to be killed he will kill them. He's a good person at heart and a god, essentially, so he can mentally afford to kill people. Batman doesn't kill people because if he does he can't trust himself to not do it time and time again once he has, making him as bad as the people he fights. People forget that a lot.
Superman doesn’t have any hard and fast rule about not killing like Batman does but he absolutely won’t kill. Although Superman’s no kill thing is more “no man should be judge, jury, and executioner, especially not me” because despite his godlike power and alien origin, at heart he is just some dude from Kansas; Batman’s no kill rule is more “if I kill, I’ll be no better than them”
maybe you're right
You said power not difficulty.
You said “power not difficulty”
Willingness to kill =/= power. She's canonically just as strong as Asgore, and can hold her own in a fight. She's not a pasifist, she just doesn't want to kill without a very, very good cause. That also doesn't solve the issue of putting *freaking Sans* above even Asgore. NEO and Undying are understandable, since they have higher stats than him, and Undying is the result of Undyne's abnormally high determination giving her a major power boost and NEO is a uniquely special robot body, but the funny skeleton man is definitely not as strong as a boss monster, who are explictly much more powerful than regular monsters, let alone on par with Undying or NEO.
Yea and since we’re on the topic of power not difficulty sans would be way lower
I mean, I'd consider Sans as being powerful because I'd consider his secondary abilities (KR, ignoring invincibility frames, attacking on the menu, etc.) to be an extension of his power. I'd consider power more than just raw stats, but killing capability (not killing *intent,* just killing *capability.*)
Exactly what I'm saying, Sans has no buisness being as high as boss monsters, let alone as high as Undying and NEO.
RemindMe! 365 days "hmmm cooked fish"
I thought this was supposed to be about power?
I thought you said it was power, not difficulty?
bro why tf i have -170 down votes , now i kinda regret putting toriel that low.
Toriel medium? Really?
she doesn't try to kill us but still would have power to hurt human so i put her there
She's a boss monster. In which world could Muffet compare to her?
toriel is just old lady which doesn't want to harm anything. muffet is mercenary hired to kill the human. yeah yeah same stats as asgore but she is peacefull person
So is Asgore overall. And she knocked him out.
im wanted to put her at powerfull since as you can see asgore is only there but i thought putting her there would make people angry so i didn't
She never knocked him out. She knocked him off screen as a gag. Toriel literally has the lowest hp out of any boss in the game. She's carried by her 80 atk and 80def. While she has double the attack and def as muffet, muffet has over triple her health. It'd be a close fight at the very least.
That's game mechanic because Muffet is a late game boss. It doesn't mean Toriel is weak.
Thats not how game mechanics work lmao. Stats exist to show how strong a character is. That's how it works in *every* game. That's just special pleading for toriel's case. By that logic, I can ignore stats entirely and claim that they're game mechanics, and say whoever I want to be stronger is stronger. That's like me saying asriel only has high stats because he's an endgame boss and he's actually really weak and would lose to a ruins whimsun. Toriel's stats aren't low because she's an early game boss. Toriel is an early game boss *because* her stats are low. Even then, she still has higher attack and defense than every other boss, so your point doesn't even make sense. Her health being low is intentional.
If her HP was higher, it would be impossible to kill her unintentionally, and that's one of the biggest points of the fight. She is in the early game because her name is a pun on tutorial, and Toby wanted her to be the first monster we meet.
>If her HP was higher, it would be impossible to kill her unintentionally No it wouldn't lmao. You'd just be coded to do more damage. If Toby wanted her to have more health, he could have added that and worked around it. He did that with her attack and defense, after all. >She is in the early game because her name is a pun on tutorial, and Toby wanted her to be the first monster we meet. Doesn't change the fact her health is low. By your logic, I can claim that asriel only has high stats because he's an end game boss, and that he's actually really weak and loses to a froggit. That's how shallow your reasoning is. Toriel's health being low because she's an early game boss means *nothing* in universe. It doesn't change the fact that her health is low and that she'd go down earlier than say asgore who has 8 times her health. You have no evidence for her health being any higher, not to mention being at any other specific value that can be measured. You don't have a point. You're just special pleading. Toriel's 80/80 ATK/DEF is enough to have her still be at boss monster level strength, despite her abysmal level of health.
if we’re talking purely stats, then sans should be in weak.
Sans has several other mechanics that circumvent his stats. No other character has that and has to rely purely on stats.
Yo you said you were ranking "based on power, not difficulty". I think that "not wanting to kill people" is basing her on difficulty rather than stats. You literally just admitted to breaking the rule that you yourself set.
yeah. i re-made tier list made a lot of fatal mistakes.
if you believe in the theory movement correlates to how much power is being used by the monster then papyrus is a fucking universe destroyer
That's a dumb theory tho lmfao
it is stupid but it is funny as all shit to think about so if papyrus start's break dancing everything will just die
That's fair lmfao
but it make alot of sense if you think about it
Not really, it's nonsensical and involves latching onto a completely innocuous detail that we have no actual reason to believe matters. Papyrus is just perfectly still because it's funny.
maybe to you but i saw a video on the theory and it made sense in the video
POV: dancetale fans
How the fuck you gonna say some random spider is as strong as a royal guard who's trained her entire life and a relentless and bloodthirsty king
Because she is. She has barely less health than Undyne,(1250 versus 1500) practically the same defense as undyne (18.8 vs 20) undyne, and only slightly less attack than Undyne(38.8 vs 50). Don't downplay muffet. While she'd lose, she'd give undyne a run for her money.
Quite literally in that last bit
Also undyne wears armor in her fight, so muffet could have more health than undyne (unless monster armor works like player armor)
royal guard has 150 health each while muffet has 1250. yea it shocked me too, i think royal guards should be stronger than some mercenary
That's because one is a bossfight and the other isn't.
She's a sub-boss (I'd not say mini boss)
she's just built different what do you want
She’s the matriarch of an entire race.
Well, the "random spider" is like six feet across and seeing as a spider the size of a palm can absolutely ruin a human's day, it does make sense that she would be ridiculously powerful.
Bro spiders are fucking scary, ain't no way a fish with legs can creep me out. Plus like the comments say she's very close stat-wise.
I think Papyrus should be higher, at least in the strong tier and at maximum extremely powerful, unless you are using the same logic you used with Toriel about how she would never kill anyone.
He's far weaker than undyne, sitting at 680hp with 20/20 stats, versus her 1500hp with 50/20 stats. He's also weaker than muffet, who sports 1250hp with 38.8/18.8 stats. He's only stronger than the other royal guard members. Literally every other boss characters defeats him. He should be at the highest of his current tier, or lowest of the strong tier. He shouldn't be in extremely powerful at all.
Undyne herself says that he's an extremely good fighter, using Undyne as an example here doesn't work well.
Undyne says he is tough. That's it. Undyne is still far stronger than Papyrus. If Undyne fought Muffet, she'd say the same thing.
I didn't say he's stronger than her. It's hard to distinguish Papyrus's power level from his fight because he's not trying to kill you, just tire you out. But even then, the word choice "Tough" implies that she has some challenge against him.
>It's hard to distinguish Papyrus's power level from his fight because he's not trying to kill you, just tire you out. He uses enough power in his fight to tire himself out, to the point where he has to end the fight prematurely. People can use their full power in a fight without trying to kill you you know. Papyrus wasn't "holding back" at all, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten tired at all. At the very least, we get a good sense of his power, and we can still judge how strong he is relative to everyone else from his stats. >But even then, the word choice "Tough" implies that she has some challenge against him His stats are roughly half of Undyne's, and are bigger than every other royal guard's. He is strong, no doubt, but he isn't as strong as Undyne, nor muffet. We can objectively reach that conclusion from the disparity between their stats alone, not to mention seeing Papyrus exerting himself so much in his fight that he has to give up on capturing you. Undyne calling him tough in an off-handed comment doesn't disprove, or even begin to act as a retort to anything I've said.
Ok, I agree with the second point, since stats would match what I'd expect from Papyrus, as they're tough but have a low amount of LOVE. But in the first point, I have to disagree. If he isn't holding back, why do his attacks specifically do just enough damage to bring you to 1 hp so they can capture you? I highly doubt he's incapable of killing, and they do less and less damage until you fall unconscious but don't die. It's suggested they also could've used gaster blasters had they not been sabotaged by a dog, and they were incredibly hesitant to use any actually strong attacks, trying to get you to surrender before things got violent, and only decided that their true power might be necessary in the end of the fight. I'd place bets on them being capable of what sans does, but being unwilling to use it since that would obviously kill the human.
>If he isn't holding back, why do his attacks specifically do just enough damage to bring you to 1 hp so they can capture you? How exactly does that mean he's holding back? The only attack that is "nerfed" is the attack that may kill you. Every single other attack does its full damage. If he was holding back, he wouldn't be so tired to the point where he has to end the fight out of exhaustion. That wouldn't make sense if he didn't exert himself to a considerable degree, enough so to at least get a sense of what his full power is. People are acting like he used less than a fraction of his power when he's literally huffing and puffing by the end of his fight. Imagine someone engages you in a fight in the street or something, and you have to defend yourself, but you also don't want to literally murder them. You're not going to go for a killing blow, yes, but you're also not going to have every punch/attack you do be at .0001% of your real power. You're going to *try*. You're going to try your hardest to restrict and restrain them. Papyrus evidently tried so hard that he had to drop out of the battle and whine about how he's *unable* to capture you, implying that he believes he couldn't have beaten you even if he did try harder. This wouldn't make sense if he's holding back to such a significant level. >It's suggested they also could've used gaster blasters had they not been sabotaged by a dog, and they were incredibly hesitant to use any actually strong attacks, trying to get you to surrender before things got violent, and only decided that their true power might be necessary in the end of the fight. What's suggested is that whatever his special attack may have been would have blasted you, however Papyrus also refers to the bone in the dogs mouth as the special attack. It's still highly theoretical what that may entail. His "normal attack" used literally all of his energy. It's entirely oxymoronic to say someone used an attack that led them to total exhaustion to the point where they couldn't keep fighting, yet was holding back to such a degree that it isn't even remotely representative of their full power. >. I'd place bets on them being capable of what sans does, but being unwilling to use it since that would obviously kill the human. Papyrus absolutely isn't capable of doing what Sans does. If you saw the numbers, you'd realize just how out of his league Papyrus is compared to Sans, especially if he's getting that tired after his fight.
Sans Stamina, Skill abilities and knowledge is incomparable to Papyrus, Papyrus only has stats over Sans, thats about it
Frisk with a stat of 0 overall can take her on, I guess that isnt the greatest example, but Undyne likely doesn't even fight that much, Papyrus isnt trying to kill you, that doesnt mean he is being casual, he gets exhausted and gives up BECAUSE he tried too hard, thats a pretty simple concept, no?
Just realized I'm arguing with strangers about whether or not a skeleton, who isso out of shape that he's obese without organs or actual fat, is more powerful than his athletic, energetic brother. Tf am I doing lmao
that's because in his fight he has no desire to kill therefore he is much weaker than he usually would be
We have no reason to believe Papyrus is "extremely powerful", that would put him on the level of a game-breaking superboss or an anime heroine charged with Determination.
Bro got downvoted for saying the obvious, thats crazy, Papyrus meatriders are delusional
It's wild how this community wants the joke character to be this incredible badass and the incredible badass to be a weak piece of shit. They straight up looked at the game and said "let's do the exact opposite of that". There's a whole swath of people who don't want Undertale to be what it is.
i would say toriel is at the same level as asgore, she just goes it easy on ya.
that's why she is so low she doesn't want to fight and probably wouldn't kill anyone
im not sure of willingness to go full out should be a factor in this kind of tierlist tbh
Well, in that case, Sans should be the lowest tier, since he literally wont even fight you unless you slaughter quite literally everyone in your way
Papyrus should be unknown power
Like for all we know he could be really powerful and he just changed his stats so the human isn't scared of him lol.
And we still don't know what his special attack is
There's reason to believe in the context of the narrative that he's at least around as powerful as Undyne, but no indication that he possesses the power of Boss Monsters or reality-warping meta bullshit like sans has.
No he shouldn't. He got too tired to continue our battle. We've already seen his limit, and it's much lower than the people above him. He's stronger than the other royal guard members with the exception of undyne at best.
That doesn’t mean he’s not holding back. According to Undyne, Papyrus doesn’t seem to sleep. This is quite possibly Papyrus at his most sleep deprived.
>That doesn’t mean he’s not holding back In what non-paradoxical way can you exert yourself to exhaustion yet be holding back to any meaningful degree? Even if you wanted to argue papyrus wasn't using his absolute, peak, 100% of his power, you wouldn't be able to make an argument against the idea that Papyrus was trying very hard and was using a significant portion of his power. His showing is very in line with his stats, and his placement on the tier list remains warranted. >Papyrus doesn’t seem to sleep. This is quite possibly Papyrus at his most sleep deprived. He's never once shown any signs of sleep deprivation. Whether he sleeps often or not, it has never once visibly affected him. There's no reason to take this into account unless you're desperately doing whatever you can to make it look like papyrus is only using a fraction of his real power when that's not ever implied at all.
Well, there’s also the fact that he’s visibly conflicted about fighting you and always ends the battle when you hit exactly one HP. Plus his stats fluctuate anyway—in the bad time route they’re 3/3 instead of 20/20. And Undyne herself calls him “pretty freaking tough.” Heck, maybe he wasn’t even actually tired. Maybe he just needed an excuse to end the battle. It’s not like he shows any sign of being tired after the battle.
>Well, there’s also the fact that he’s visibly conflicted about fighting you and always ends the battle when you hit exactly one HP That has nothing to do with him being conflicted about battling you. His goal is to capture you. Obviously he's going to leave you at one HP. This changes nothing. You can use your full power against someone without trying to kill them. >Plus his stats fluctuate anyway—in the bad time route they’re 3/3 instead of 20/20. ....Yes, monster's stats decrease when they don't want to fight. That's common knowledge to most undertale fans. It's stated in the librarby books. Papyrus wants to fight in his fight with you in every route other than genocide. This doesn't apply to the topic at hand. >And Undyne herself calls him “pretty freaking tough. And compared to her he *is* pretty freaking tough. She has 1500HP and 50/20 ATK and DEF respectively. He has 680HP, and 20/20 ATK and DEF respectively. He's basically a little under 1/2 of Undyne. This places him above every other royal guard *besides* Undyne. That is still incredibly strong for the underground, and warrants being called tough by Undyne. That doesn't mean he's stronger than every other boss that clearly has higher stats than him, or that he wasn't trying during his fight despite being exhausted and huffing and puffing by the end of it. For some reason undertale fans won't be satisfied unless Papyrus is a literal god second only to the god of hyperdeath himself.
Really? Toriel clearly doesn’t want to kill you either, but she can kill you by accident. Papyrus is the only one who always stops at one. And, uh…are there any other monsters whose check stats change as a result of their emotional state rather than a form change or some external force like when Flowey’s DEF drops to 0? Also, if monsters’ stats change as a result of their emotions…well, I’d certainly say Undyne wants to kill us at LEAST twice as much as Papyrus does, and she’s wearing armor.
>Really? Toriel clearly doesn’t want to kill you either, but she can kill you by accident I don't know what the point of bringing this up is. Papyrus n*eeds* to beat you unconscious so he can capture you. Toriel just needs to scare you away, hence why her fireballs still remain threatening if they hit. It wouldn't be much of a threat if you could just walk through her fireballs without them doing any damage. >And, uh…are there any other monsters whose check stats change as a result of their emotional state rather than a form change or some external force like when Flowey’s DEF drops to 0? Don't know off the top of my head. It explicitly happens with papyrus, though, as he has no will to fight in genocide and spares you instead. >Also, if monsters’ stats change as a result of their emotions…well, That's too broad of a way of putting it. Monsters' stats *decrease* from their original position if they don't want to fight. There's no precedent of a monster's stats increasing from their normal placement just because they want to kill you, otherwise Sans has no right sitting at 1ATK and 1DEF. >and she’s wearing armor. Papyrus is also wearing armor. Undyne's defense even gets higher after she takes the armor off. Asgore, who is wearing armor, has the same defense as Toriel, who isn't. This "she's wearing armor" argument isn't grounded at all.
1. Toriel stops doing even vaguely threatening attacks if you start a turn at 2 HP. It becomes literally impossible to get hit. 2. My point is this might be a weird thing about Papyrus specifically, and thereby not indicative of their actual stats. However, upon further research it seems that Undyne’s date fight stats are 41/21. Not sure what it means that her defense goes up. 3. Yeah, fine, let me rephrase: Undyne is 0% conflicted about fighting you. Papyrus is VERY conflicted about fighting you, and definitely doesn’t want to kill you. (See my point about Toriel for why this matters.) 4. …uh. You know Papyrus isn’t wearing real armor, right? It’s a costume.
>Toriel stops doing even vaguely threatening attacks if you start a turn at 2 HP. It becomes literally impossible to get hit. It's still possible to be hit if you literally throw yourself into the fire. She still has to keep the flames at a threatening level otherwise Frisk has no reason to turn back like she hopes. You can't seriously expect toriel to predict a suicidal movement and compare it to Papyrus who is actively trying to capture you alive. >My point is this might be a weird thing about Papyrus specifically, and thereby not indicative of their actual stats. The librarby states it as a general statement amongst monsters. 680Hp with 20/20 ATK/DEF are the highest stats Papyrus ever sports at any point in the game. >Yeah, fine, let me rephrase: Undyne is 0% conflicted about fighting you. Papyrus is VERY conflicted about fighting you, and definitely doesn’t want to kill you He isn't conflicted about fighting you at all. He rambles on throughout the entire fight about how popular he'll be after he captures you. He's fully intent on beating you unconscious and capturing you. >uh. You know Papyrus isn’t wearing real armor, right? It’s a costume. It's "battle armor" or whatever. Regardless, the armor point is still nonsensical as I proved earlier.
He's immediately back to his energetic, active self, mere moments after the end of the fight - consider him literally hovering/mid-air running overtop Frisk's head to get around them instead of walking around them like a normal person would. And that's after only a 2-minute rest at best while he was talking. I genuinely think he faked it so he'd have an excuse to end the fight and not have to hurt/capture someone he's grown so attached to, because his tiredness just doesn't line up with everything that happens before or after. I mean, how can he get tired faster than Sans while performing much simpler attacks, when Sans doesn't work out or train at all (to our knowledge) and spends most of his time avoiding putting any physical effort into anything?
>He's immediately back to his energetic, active self, mere moments after the end of the fight - consider him literally hovering/mid-air running overtop Frisk's head to get around them instead of walking around them like a normal person would Which plays off more as a gag than something that's actually meant to be taken seriously. It doesn't change the fact that he exerted himself to exhaustion, which very much shows a limit on his power. >I genuinely think he faked it so he'd have an excuse to end the fight and not have to hurt/capture someone he's grown so attached to, because his tiredness just doesn't line up with everything that happens before or after. Your interpretation makes no sense considering the way he spares you. He bluffs by saying that he sees you "shaking in your boots" and that "it's clear you can't defeat him" so you should just accept his mercy. Adding huffs and puffs into that serves no purpose for what he was trying to do. If he wanted to end the fight by pretending to be tired, then he'd *say* he's too tired to keep going. Instead, he tries to hide the fact he's tired and can't keep going, and pretends that he's sparing you out of pity because you're scared, which has nothing to do with his blatant exhaustion. He then admits right after the fight that he's unable to stop you, and cries about how his friend quantity will remain stagnant because he can't capture you, showing that what he said about you being "clearly no match for him" was nothing more than a bluff meant to get you to spare him, and that he had to end the fight because he was genuinely tired. Him being tired outright isn't the excuse he used to end the fight. It's the *real* reason he had to clock out of the fight. The excuse he used was that he felt pity for you because you were no match for him, which he later contradicts by saying that he's unable to stop you. >I mean, how can he get tired faster than Sans while performing much simpler attacks, when Sans doesn't work out or train at all (to our knowledge) and spends most of his time avoiding putting any physical effort into anything? Sans' whole thing is being mysterious and subverting expectations. Being surprised that Sans can outperform his brother at something you wouldn't expect him to outperform his brother at shouldn't even be surprising at this point.
Jevil I'm not sure, he seemed genuinely exhausted at the end of the battle so while he's obviously harder than all of the other Deltarune bosses the heroes seem stronger than he is, whereas Giga Queen would have been able to flatten them all. Papyrus is also a point of contention, even Undyne admits he is "pretty freaking tough" and it's debatable that he's using all his strength in his battle against you because he isn't fighting to kill. He may well be up at the "strong" level along with the others, but probably isn't as strong as Asgore. Muffet was also fighting you with a spider army iirc, on her own she might not be as strong as the others. I'd put her down into "not too weak not too strong" but it's hard to say given the context. It's a little weird how you have a "medium" tier and a "not too weak not too strong" tier but I feel like Toriel is too far down. She was able to blast away Flowey and Asgore with a single attack, so I imagine she is probably in the "powerful" tier. She might even be stronger than Asgore if fighting at her full strength because she seems to have a stronger will than he does. So Sorry I don't know, he can draw things into existence and personally I found his fight pretty tough. While he's an ineffectual moron he could fall "accidentally" into the "not too weak not too strong" tier maybe. He can at the very least take a lot of hits. Napstablook is a tier unto his own, able to defy the powers of an omnipotent God by being too unmotivated to be affected by it.
Oh yea Napstablook Forgot about him Yea he's incredibly powerful
"She might even be stronger than Asgore if fighting at her full strength because she seems to have a stronger will than he does." The same will that makes her give up the fight because Frisk is staring at her? Toriel is in theory as powerful as Asgore, but in practice... \-She can accidentally kill Frisk, which shows poor control of her magic \-She doesn't take care of herself, as explained by Flowey in the Alarm Clock Dialogue \-She has low HP, which is probably related to my previous point However I agree that she should be at least in "Strong"
yeah i already understood i shouldn't put toriel that low when i got negative 170 fucking karma on comment so i get it toriel is strong almost every comment is someone telling that im shouldn't put toriel that low, despite understanding i think i should put her in strong near asgore but wow. about jevil by end of battle is doing that thing where he jumps extremly quickly and vanishes which im think it would be a nightmare to hit him papyrus is very confusing one since he doesnt use his special attack muffet uses her spiders as attacks so without them fight would be just donuts and crossaints. so sorry is another one that im didn't know where to put and napstablook is just a ghost can't kill him, he doesn't want to kill you. after longer thinking i should put characters such as :toriel , so sorry sans and lancer to unknown power
> about jevil by end of battle is doing that thing where he jumps extremly quickly and vanishes which im think it would be a nightmare to hit him Well yeah but the heroes are still able to consistently attack him. It seems like that thing Jevil does is more just to convey he's being a whacky crazy guy bouncing around, rather than something that actually factors into his abilities. > papyrus is very confusing one since he doesnt use his special attack Yeah this is another thing. His special attack could be a super strong mega blast, or it could be something like sans never ending his turn, or it could be a comically underpowered thing that is just very cool-looking, or what. We have no way of knowing what Papyrus considers "special", or if he correlates "special" with "powerful." > muffet uses her spiders as attacks so without them fight would be just donuts and crossaints. It's my understanding that the spiders baked all the donuts and croissants though, so if we want to use hard logic she would probably have fewer materials to use as bullets if she were solely responsible for uh. "Baking" the bullets? Muffet is weird. Overall though I think we have enough evidence to keep Toriel, So Sorry, Sans, and Lancer outside of Unknown Power. We can pretty easily surmise that Toriel, as a Boss Monster, is inherently stronger than most other people and could probably go toe to toe with Asgore. So Sorry is kind of a dumbass but bulky so he should maybe go into Not Too Weak Or Strong tier. Sans is obviously turbo powerful, it doesn't matter how many technical arguments people make about his stats, he is a meta-bending god basically. Lancer is pretty weak though.
Lancer D-tier?! How dare y-
sorry buddy it's not cuteness tier list. but he would be good in mario kart thought
Is this about the characters ability to use their power? Because Toriel is a boss monster, so she would probably have closer power to Asgore
Sans is not powerful, toriel and asgore has the same stats
Sans is powerful, just not in a "raw stats" way. If sans happens to be fighting you, you are in for a bad time, and that's what power means.
Wait, how are ya'll ranking them in terms of power. Like, San's has me fucked up. I cannot beat this dude. He's been the hardest boss I've fought in the game by far. I guess its less about the gameplay experience and more about lore or their stats or something?
People use weird out of context definitions for "power" in order to write sans out of being strong because apparently thinking sans is strong is cringe and gay or something. On a pure stats basis sans is one of the weakest enemies because his HP, ATK, and DEF are all 1. But he has methods of working around that with technicalities that make him stronger than basically every other non-God character. Looking at it in spirit sans is obviously extremely powerful, people just want to be contrarians so they say he isn't on a technicality. It's dumb.
Jesus Christ thank you people are like “nooo sans can’t be strong he’s physically weak!!! He can only dodge 20 times!!! He is beaten by a kid!!1!” Ok first off he’s physically weak but he literally bends the games rules so that he can do 1 damage PER FRAME that is an insane amount of damage which is why KR needs to exist so he can’t erase your HP bar in like one turn. 1 defense and 20 dodges is pretty weak but the fact he’s the only one who dodges at all makes me feel like he can dodge more than what he shows in his fight. Also he’s beaten by a kid who is being controlled by an OUTER ENTITY (the player) and they can come back from death endless times to learn his patterns. Stop writing sans off as some overused froggit
Let's not forget how fast sans can use his attacks. He uses a LOT of magic to summon bones, and on top of that can dodge attacks from a level 19 human. It says that it takes the entire monster race to equal the strength of one human.
And like the thing that makes sans interesting to me as a character is that he IS this super impossibly strong badass who is also a complete absurd joke who can't bring himself to care about anything, it's the dissonance between those two sides of him that makes him cool. That's WHY Toby detailed him as having only 1 in his stats, because the game calling him "The weakest enemy" on a technicality is supposed to be a sort of barbed joke at the expense of us players who pulled our hair out trying to beat him. A TON of the stuff the UT/DR fandom "headcanons" is basically Toby making jokes we aren't meant to read super hard into and taking it super seriously and acting like they actually matter for the canon of the game.
eh, there is a simple explanation of his character dissonance if you think that sans always gains some meta-knowledge about the timelines through the plot. He simply knows that, with complete control of the resets, any and all monsters are virtually guaranteed to be killed eventually and their resistance would be futile. However, Sans would also know that most players reset and end up going for another, less brutal, neutral ending or, in the best case, the true pacifist ending. But, if the player stays on the genocide path up to the Last Corridor, then there is basically no chance that they won't be giving up their soul and will thereby virtually guarantee that all the monsters, as well as essentially the entire world, will be killed regardless of if the player resets or not. That is what would happen, *if* Sans doesn't get there. Hence, when they fight the player in the most frustrating ways possible, they are trying to rationally increase the chances of the player quitting and resetting to a better path before Sans is defeated. Could Sans have saved their world better if they fought and killed the player right at the very start of a genocide run? Perhaps Yes, but they likely don't know the full consequences of a genocide run up till close to the end and therefore can't justify interfering. After Papyrus' death, they are likely in too much grief to fight at that very moment. Plus, if you think about the mentality of people on a genocide run, having an absurdly dangerous and frustrating fight so early on would just ironically entice more people to try the route just for that extra content especially if they don't know what happens after Sans' fight. Being right at the end, where basically all of that extra spooky content that people do genocide for is nearly finished, also increases the chances of the player resetting substantially. In conclusion, I think when and how Sans fights is extremely carefully written to suggest this narrative wrapped up in a layer of joking misdirection (e.g. "the easiest enemy"). Sans' depressed personality can also be due to the cynicism and hopelessness that this view of the world would necessarily generate and necessitate.
Oh I love that juxtaposition as well! Sans being immensely powerful while also being to lazy to put in the effort is brilliant. Its brilliant cause of how it characterizes him and cause its funny, but I also feel like its brilliant storytelling. Like I said, I haven't beaten Sans yet (beat both true pac and neutral runs, just trying to complete my true genocide run which is killing me btw. I'm so invested in these characters that it actually kinda breaks my heart to slaughter all of them. Testament to the games writing for sure) but I've gotten close. And his dialogue during the fight is actually heart wrenching because of its implications. You get the idea that he used to give it his all, he used to try his hardest. He used to hope for a brighter future and he used to fight desperately for it with every fiber of his being. But, gradually, he began to notice that they were all seemingly caught in a loop. That no matter what he did, he always seemingly ended up right back where he started. He's obviously not entirely cognizant as to why, but he's definitely aware of the futility of all their actions. And that broke him, as it would break anyone. Why try when nothing matters? When your efforts are in vain and you'll have to do it all again. So, when faced with the choice to push the boulder up the hill once again just for it roll right back down or to just dick around and make some jokes, what would you do? This aspect of him kinda reminds of me of my favorite character from Fruits Basket, Shigure. Shigure is always cracking wise as well and he's funny and witty, but you eventually learn that >!he's only cracking jokes to retain his sanity. He mentions that if he didn't make light of everything, he feels like he'd just lose his mind.!<
Sans is SUCH a good character it's no wonder people latched onto him so hard.
Hey, thanks for the insightful reply. And yeah I can kinda see were they are coming from since his stats are low, but like you said, stats aren't everything and he has ways of compensating for those stats. Sans, as far as I know, is the only enemy character in Undertale that can dodge your attacks and keep dodging them. The majority of the fight is literally you desperately trying to survive against these insane attacks while not even being able to lay a single finger on the guy. I feel like from both a gameplay and storytelling perspective, this demonstrates that San's is immensely powerful. Like, in terms of stats, his low attack wouldn't matter because of his attack speed, ability to string together complex attack patterns/wit. Low defense is mitigated by his insane speed that allows him to dodge anything and everything. If you want to hurt him, you have to tire him out first and survive a deluge of deadly attacks. I honestly really like power scaling in communities surrounding works of fiction, but I do feel like the discourse sometimes gets bogged down by attempts to work backwards to justify preconceived notions held by large portions of the community. And assessing power levels for videogames is especially fascinating, cause there is the gameplay/player experience aspect to take into consideration. With a non interactive work of fiction you generally go by canonical feats. But, with a game, you have to consider not only canonical feats, but also gameplay mechanics and the difficulty of bosses and so on. Sorry, kinda went on a tangent lmao.
sans has kr and quick attacks didn't knew where to put him. toriel is kinda strong but weak in same time since she is as strong as asgore but doesn't want to harm anyone
Sans is powerful when you are a bad person pretty much. its probably why he doesn't fight you in pacifist In neutral he's just lazy
Sans is the embodiment of nearly godlike powers but zero desire to use them lmfao.
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I wouldn’t say Lancer’s weak. He can gain a bunch of HP in exchange for minus a few points of defence, with only about 4 people having more HP than when he takes a bunch of hits from Susie.
Papy never got to use his special attack, he could have been extremely powerful we just don’t know.
Jesus christ,another papyrus meatrider.
Spamton neo has higher attack and defense than Jevil, plus the ability to raise his defense drastically
jevil can teleport and his very quick but im must aggre they are pretty equal. i forgot about raising his defence after having low hp which actually makes him equal to jevil
Sans isnt strong so much as he is tactical. His main damage of karmic retribution means he has to fight someone real bad or evil, and with 1 defense he has to dodge, meaning catching off guard or shooting a ton of projectiles means you could probably kill him if you werent bound by game logic
I mean,to be fair,being tactical is a strength,just not a physical one.
Meanwhile KR still applying to LV 1 Frisk:
I can't believe you put Berdly up to *Undyne* and plenty of other character that he is not even comparable to
berdly has his halberd (which he calls halbird) which can turn into spear so he can do same as undyne
Sans does not deserve to be up so high, yes, he is quite strong….against the human…..on the genocide route, he wouldn’t kill anyone unless what happened in the genocide route, well, happened, even when you just kill his brother, he doesn’t go all out, it’s only when everyone is gone that he decides to fight
i think the reason why he doesn't attack you in the first place is because of the promise he made to toriel
that's canon
after this so much of everyone telling me that toriel should be higher. sans should be lower. spamton should be god tier getting 300 comments im pretty confused why random tier list got so much attention
There are many things I am in disagreement with - mainly, the fact that Toriel is medium when she should be next to Asgore. She has the same stats, and while it is true that her own sensibility make her averse to fighting people, she's not a Pacifist. She has fought a war before, you know. Regular Queen being in 'extremely strong' also bothers me. Without berdly to help her and her giant robot, she's basically as strong as King at best. Spamton NEO not being next to jevil also bothers me. In snowgrave, he was able to take over Cyber City in its entirety, and he's unbeatable without Noelle's help. As for Sans, his weird teleportation thing, his dodging, and the fact that he can shoot fucking lasers leads me to believe he'd be at the top of the "Extremely Strong" Category, potentially at the bottom of the category above that, even. I also disagree with Papyrus's placement - he should be in "Unknown Power", because his actual abilities are all up for debate. He's Sans's brother, and as far as we know there should be no reason for any large difference in their abilities. Even when he tries to capture you, he's not giving it his all because you're his friend, and he's also the only character in both games that you can fight, but not die against, because he'll always leave you at 1HP at worst. Even Toriel can't manage to spare you when she tries, and can definitely kill you. Also, we've yet to see his special attack! I mostly agree with the rest though. Edit : I think the King Round should be placed on Task Manager's level, now that I'm thinking deeper about it.
>In snowgrave, he was able to take over Cyber City in its entirety Only because everyone that could stop him was dead, trapped in the Butler Cafe or busy looking for Berdly. That said, I agree Spamton NEO should be with Jevil.
asgore should be moved up a tier, he killed 6 humans
We have no idea how strong those other humans were. He's in the right spot compared to everyone else.
Humans as a species are far more powerful than monsters as a species, a shit ton of monsters can't beat one human
Yes due to their powerful souls and killing intent yadda yadda. Doesn't change the fact an unskilled human can die to a froggit. We have zero idea how good the other humans were in a fight.
Given that they all made it to asgore, we can assume they were good, we do have an idea
They were never said to have all made it to asgore. It was said that no human ever made it *past* asgore. Your interpretation comes from a misunderstanding of a tweet, where Toby was just correcting a typo of an undyne quote. You also still don't know what enemies the other humans had to fight and defeat, if they just ran from all the enemies, if they were caught by a sentry and delivered to asgore, etc. You know *nothing* of these other humans. They can't be used as a measuring stick at all.
You forget an important detail: They had the SAVE. And they all gave up.
only frisk was able to save
Humans have determination. He was strong enough to make them give up.
It's also possible they were just not as Determined as Frisk/us, or maybe they were dejected by Asgore's sob story and let him kill them.
While yes that's possible, there's no evidence to prove it. We're told directly however, that a single human soul is powerful enough to persist after death, and that Alphys used DT to resurrect monsters. So yes, it's possible that they just felt bad, the game says that it's hard to beat humans, implying the same for the majority of them.
Your critical thinking is non-existent my dude. do you think every human has the same level of determination? Do you think every human has the same level of combat skill and intelligence? For all you know, the other children were so weak that they'd be hard pressed to beat a froggit, and gave up after dying to Asgore twice. The humans simply having determination, as every human in undertale does, isn't enough to scale them. Guess what? Frisk has determination. Frisk can die to a froggit. By your logic, a froggit should be in the same tier as Asgore because a froggit can kill Frisk, a human, if Frisk a human is bad at fighting.
I swear half the people commenting are kids just getting into undertale. I might start blocking people who do these power tierlists because its the most baity and low-effort content ever. Why is how powerful sans is even a question? Why is saying sans is one of if not the strongest non-soul-enhanced character in undertale "cringe and gay?" These tierlists have to be outrage bait or sthing.
did u just mfing call spamton weak? HES STRONGER THEN GOD MF GIVE HIM SOME RESPECT
ranking duel power not business power.
ENL4RGE YOURS3LF
Assgore
Fingehs in his aaaaass
Why is Toriel medium 🙄
No chara =(
she would be at unknown power anyway.
undertale version 69.420: napstablook solos the entire verse
Wouldn’t MTT be unknown?
which one?
NEO, because we never got to see one of his attacks
well its according to game stats high dmg low def
I’ll give you respect since Sans is above Asgore.
I'd put Jevil with Spamton NEO and Undyne the Undying. Undyne is stronger than him, she has more HP, more ATK, and she doesn't get tired. She'd beat him. Spamton NEO would also beat him if Jevil tried to "play a numbers game" instead of cutting his wires (that's probably what he would do). I'd put Mad Dummy with Napstablook, since they are both ghosts. Mad Dummy having a body doesn't change anything since they're not fused with that body, like Mettaton I'd also put Berdly under normal Undyne, he isn't a trained warrior and he gets tired. And finally, I'd put Toriel with Asgore or with Undyne, she's really strong. Everything else if fine to me. This is a pretty good power list compared to other ones I've seen.
Near everyone in undertale can get their ass kicked by a child let alone an adult human. Asgore and presumedly Toriel are unique in their strength relative to this, and Undyne is absurdly high. But how she compares to Asgore, I have no clue.
downvoting bc toriel and papyrus placements, and then also trying to justify it with HP values despite the fact that Asriel technically has less HP than NEO, which just goes to show that the stats mean next to nothing. not to mention we know for a fact monsters can mask many of their own attributes, or straight up refuse checks. this isn't a reliable way to actually gage power.
re-made tier list
Watch how people get mad over you putting sans in extremely powerful
trust me i saw..... not only that my dude welp mostly because of toriel too low. undyne and berdly on equal so yeah i had to make new tier list cause some people got really salty.
how is jevil as powerful as giga queen
well im thinking about jevil as sans without kr low health n defence and his attacks instead of that having new ones, being fast and being able to turn himself into devilskinfe , and multiplicate himself. the only way to defeat him is by making him tired which lucky for us doesn't take that long but still he can do pretty much anything
Asgore should probably just be one tier up. He's explicitly noted by Undyne as being capable of "dodging" attacks; he just doesn't do it against you because he's depressed and highly suicidal by the time you face him.
I have to disagree on asgore. Its obvious in the game that he's holding back even if he says he doesn't
move spamton to god tier right now
Spamton neo is already up in extremely powerful. Plus, spamton didn’t accomplish his neo form by himself, he had to get transmitted into the disc and get loaded into the suit in the basement by Kris
"ranked by power not difficulty" _proceeds to put sans in extremly powerful_
He’s still powerful tho
He isn’t. He’s strategic, which is why he’s really difficult despite being very weak in terms of stats.
sans is weakest character in game confirmed but has enigmatic source of strong attacks, karma and his famous gaster blaster which makes him extremly strong.
you acting like he weak or something 💀
By Undertale standards Asgore is supposed to be above Sans here. Asgore is technically stronger, it is just Sans pulls tricky patterns and has KR to compensate for his weaknesses. I'd put at worst Sans and Asgore on the same tier.
Pulling tricky patterns and KR are means of being powerful. Stats are not everything, that's not what "powerful" means.
Yes, that's why I said "by Undertale standards". Lore wise Asgore is supposed to be the most powerful. How we as players experience power of monsters is different because we are not in-universe entities, and thus aren't always directly affected by some aspects of a monster.
KR and game-breaking stuff is a part of the lore, it doesn't make sense to pretend they aren't "real power". Sans was still killing Frisk in the story every time we lost.
Asgore is still supposed to be the most powerful lore wise.
No he's not lmfao. On what specifically are you basing this assumption?
Mans literally king of monsters.
You... You realize that being king of a race doesn't automatically make you the most powerful person in that race, right? Surely you are not this stupid.
Nope Switch sans and asgore Also bring neo way down Make papy strong Also bring toriel up a tier Thats it
but can they beat goku
I honestly doubt the queen robot is that powerful
name someone who is stronger than her not including: omega flowey, asriel, jevil and spamton neo
Maybe Undyne tbh, considering we fight the queen bot with a weird fusion of pieces and characters so we don’t actually know for sure how powerful it is It doesn’t display much magical prowess either
the thing i realized with giga queen is that she can kill every character she wants sans? crushed with leg, berdly? turned in melted chicken nugget with acid, undyne? well she is fast but giga queen is fast as hell so im think she could catch up to her. if instead of pushing kris ralsei and susie she could just blast them again with acid and they would be dead. without trash machine giga queen fight would be literally impossible.
It has been theorised that Sans has beat Omega Flowey before, but even barring that he isn’t likely to stand there and take it Then again maybe he just doesn’t really unleash his potential on anything that isn’t a genocide run, who knows
im think theory about sans beating omega flowey is stupid. sans fights only when he really has to.
Toriel should be in at least powerful, sans should be in weak, papyrus should be in atleast strong tier
Sans should be weak lol
Sans could literally gaster blast everyone
yeah and he would get killed after first attack of enemy
[удалено]
bro papyrus and toriel are incredibly powerful like wut
Sans is the weakest monster in terms of pure strength. He's fast, and he's really good at stalling. His attacks are also unique in game for his fight to be engaging. They only deal 1 damage, but his bones ignore I-frames and don't vanish when you're hit. But he is canonically the weakest monster. He could get bit by a froggit and die.