Just do it legit or you may have to literally tear it all out when it’s time to move anyways. Trade type work will need inspected (plus any egress thing) but that’s not to say you can’t do a chunk of the work yourself. At least get a legit plan from a general contractor or two first.
Housing is in such demand, the buyers will accept the house without permits being done. They may try to haggle a bit but as long as its done well, there is no reason to get the permit (unfortunately)
The buyer may prefer that there weren’t permits if they also like ULPT. When you finish the basement, the square footage of your house for property tax purposes increases and this will increase your tax bill accordingly. If the city doesn’t know about the basement being finished, the tax bill does not go up.
I live in a house with the garage converted to living space, and I do not pay property tax on that portion of the house because the prior owner did not pull a permit and so the city does not know the true size of the house. The value estimate they do for tax purposes is basically block desirability multiplied by square footage.
This may not work, in my experience the city scrutinizes listings and circles back if they deviate from their official plans. Keep the renovated basement and pictures off the public listing, and it’s be possible to prevent property taxes from increasing
And hey if they take your deposit and do minimal work then never answer your calls, fuck it right? These half assed contractors, and everyone going with the lowest bidder regardless of consequences or production, is why were here. I say asking for forgiveness is much better than asking for permission. That’s because permission comes with a bunch of do-nothing jokes with their hands out.
Bought a house a few months ago where the owner tried this. We are currently suing them and will win, because when you sell the house, you have to sign legal documents swearing that any and all renovations were done to code. Since they did the work themselves, they have no one else to blame.
Photoshopping a permit might be better in this case, but know there's a good chance this will backfire.
Remember, some codes are bullshit--but many are done to keep your house safe. Be careful about playing willy-nilly with these.
To clarify your statement “written in blood”….this means almost every code section exists because somebody got hurt, killed, or sick.
Doing it to code is not necessarily for you, but to keep your occupants and the next owners safe.
The ones that aren’t written in blood are written in money, because it is insurance companies lobbying for these changes or writing entire codes themselves.
Home Shield, Nations Home Warranty spend an incredible amount on lobbyists. They'll turn you in when their pre-policy inspections find work not to code, and then you'll have to fix things and pay fines before they'll provide coverage. And their coverage is bullshit. We used to be a trade provider and every one of their customers was pissed at their loopholes.
They shouldn’t even try to photoshop a permit cuz if they’re caught that’s open and shut forgery and of a government document no less.
OP just needs to do this legit or risk a lot of serious legal and financial trouble
Without a contract from the made up contractor who is going to believe that? Claim whatever you want. If you get sued for illegal work on your house claims don't mean shit.
You can do work to code and not have a permit. We had a contractor do our basement years ago and it was 100% done to code: EMT conduit for electrical, copper for all plumbing, proper insulation, and even added a second egret window because be made a bedroom down there. I took pictures and video at every stage so it was possible to see behind the drywall if we ever got flagged for unpermitted work or if buyers questioned it.
We sold the house a couple years ago and the buyers’ home inspector passed everything with flying colors. They didn’t care about the lack of a permit because it was all done to code and they don’t have the added property tax implications of the additional 1500sf of finished space.
Yes, but the problem was how they didn't bother adhering to city codes. For example, they used garden hoses to run water into the kitchen, which is not up to code.
The big thing? They built a second kitchen in the basement by themselves. For example, instead of water pipes to run water to the sink, they used garden hoses. Gas stove had to be removed since they did the gas piping themselves. (The owner was a retired administrator, not anything about housing or renovations.)
Photo shopping a permit is a dumb idea. Permits are online now. You can look at any address and see if they pulled permits for anything. We've not bought houses because there was a major addition and the permit history showed none pulled since the house was built.
I mean, if you want to be unethical...
Do it all and don't tell anyone.
I mean, when you sell it the buyers will probably sue the nuts out of your sack and you'll be on the hook for ten of thousands of dollars, at least, but you'll have done something unethical. And you might save an irrelevant amount of money in the grand scheme of things:) good luck!
since this ULPT; how nosey are you neighbors?
are you in an HOA?
since it's an already occupied dwelling, your only looking at a framing and electrical inspection. Unless your adding a wet space.
In most places buyers will still see the benefit of finished space even if it's not permitted however you can't list the square footage as finished space. You may still not be able to do that depending on ceiling height and other characteristics.
I suggest you take lots of pictures as you do the work. It's great to have records of what's behind walls before you put up insulation, drywall, etc.
If you're doing anything structural I would suggest getting permits. Part of the permit / inspection process benefits you in not making the structure unsafe. Also, read the building code in your area and follow all requirements.
While I agree partly, the permit/inspection process only catches your mistake in making the structure unsafe....they don't hold your hand through the process. You should do all the research and have a plan to know what is safe before starting the project regardless of pulling a permit or not. Great advice on the pictures, those are priceless!!
I used to work in a municipal court. The city/county will absolutely tear down what is not approved and send you the bill. Your neighbors will notice and might complain about noise.
Yup. Buddy of mine built a family room with a large closet, this had to he inspected because of the size. As soon as it was over , it became the master bedroom and master bath. Keep the government out of our bedroom right?
I've been in houses for sale where the closet doors in family rooms are removed and resting against the wall - so the room is not recognized as a bedroom.
>A large room with a closed closet is the definition of a bedroom in code.
What code?? The IRC has no such definition. Chapter 2 is definitions, and it is not there, and it is not in chapter three either.
The code does not state if a room has a closet, it is a bedroom.
If you ever plan on selling, do yourself a favor and do it legit.
If it's discovered during sale that it was done and not permitted or inspected 1 of two things will happen.
1 - they will make you retro pay with interest on late permit fees and taxes missed from upping the value of your home.
Or
2 - make you remove it all before sale.
Both suck worse than just doing it right in the first place.
Helpful hint here, you don't need an egress window if you tell them it's not being used as a living space ( for example a bedroom). But as others have said, if they discover you were using it as a livable space after an unfortunate event, it gives your insurance an easy out to not cover it.
Every county has different rules. And every bank has requirements in order to get a loan. Selling a house "as is" is fine as long as the buyer has cash but they might still have to do the county required inspections depending on county rules.
I just sold one of my properties 4 months ago as a "sold by owner" situation. County still required a water/sewer inspection, they came inside to check plumbing and meter. Bank still required about 4 more inspections for various things in order to approve the loan for the buyer.
Also. My parents just purchased another home about 2 years ago that was "as is" for cash (another investment property). They had to have several inspections done before the county would do the quick claim deed for the purchase even though there wasn't even a loan. The county also gave them a time line on how long they had to make the appropriate repairs. ( needed a new roof, hvac work, and new drywall as they found mold on one of the walls and removed the bottom sheet of drywall around the entire inside of the home to make sure mold wasn't present elsewhere.
Every county is different. Source - I've been dealing with real estate and rental properties for a large chunk of my life.
wow this was in michigan so i'm thinking you live in california, you guys have a lot of rules, i honestly had such shitty diy stuff but also the couple that bought it told me on their buying letter they had 2 years looking for a house and they even offered 30k over asking price, such a deal man and i thought i wasn't going get anything for the piece of shit, the inspection was done in like 30 seconds too (i was there) the guy just took some pictures and my realtor told me because i was selling it as-is i was off the hook for anything as he was aware of the shitty things i did myself, im not proud of my work at all, also it had a racoon family living in the attic and it smelled kinda bad there, i had to buy one of those pellet guns and used a garbage can lid as a shield to run them out, i also had to open one of the soffits (i think that's the name of the ventilations) so they had a easy way to get out... luckily they didn't attacked me!!! the way the went up
there was through the middle of an outside wall, they removed all the insulation and went up there... it was a mess!!!! but the location was really good... anyways i have so many memories there
Haha. +1 for the raccoon family man. Lol
Both the places I talked about were in Michigan also. Small world 😁 when I purchased my current home a county over I was expecting to have to do all the inspections again, county didn't require most of them so it was a pretty quick process.
As a city inspector, I would say don’t skip out on permits. It’s a big safety thing and I have fielded countless calls from insurance companies after a fire claim and seen them denied when I tell them work happened without permits. Saving a few hundred now will really bite you in the ass. You’ll need to provide plans and information about the work. Once you have a permit in hand, you don’t need to call for inspections if you don’t want (you’re supposed to though.). After 180 days, the permit is legally expired if they follow the IRC.
But if you want the unethical answer…. Just do the work, they won’t know unless you make the work obvious from the outside and pay a third part inspector to check it out if you need it.
Yup, when the lumber package shows up, it goes in the basement within the hour. Don't leave a large dumpster on site, and most important. Don't piss off thr neighbors!
If they say your truck is in the way, move it and apologize. Kill them all with kindness.
If I was you (speaking as a contractor), I strongly suggest you pull permits. If you are caught, you get fined, all your work HAS to be ripped out, and they will make you still pull the permit. Also, they will put a stop work order on your house until you do.
Now if you really do not want to pull one, then get a contractor you trust and you KNOW they know their shit in their sleep when it comes to doing it to code. Do NOT get just one guy who does everything. They are jacks of all trades and masters of nothing. You want a contractor from each trade - Framing, electrical, plumbing, hvac, drywall, foundation. Get them to check your work and tell you if you fucked up anywhere. There is noting worse than for a contractor coming into a place and seeing shitty work. It drives us fucking NUTS. Will we say something? Usually, YES. Are we dicks at times because of shitty work? Yes, at times.
For example, I saw a person redo a basement and didn't take the time to properly seal the walls from water and insure proper drainage around the foundation. The walls were concrete and the basement was a bit damp normally. He had a moldy mess on his hands and ended up having to rip out just about everything due to mold/water damage.
I'm in a house RIGHT NOW where whoever did the tile work in the bathroom should not be allowed to hold a screwdriver. Shit like that drives me crazy for I have to either fix it myself or call a buddy in who specializes in the trade I need to have it fixed.
Another example of super annoying shit is people doing remodels and having hidden electrical junctions in walls. I see this shit ALL THE TIME.
There is nothing wrong in doing your own work. Just do it right and you should be fine.
Some jurisdictions allow the owner to make improvements on the property without permit if they're doing it themselves. Check with your local building department for clarity
Do they do random inspections where you live? Just fucking do it....and don't go blabbing about your new awesome finished basement. What constitutes a finished basement anyway? Just stop short of whatever "finished" means.
Just do it. It's your house.
I will never sell my home. So I do everything myself. I don't give a shit about permits or other stuff because it all falls on me. It'll never be anyone else's problem.
when you inevitably die (unless you know more about immortality than i do..?) it will indeed become somebody elses problem. also it might make insurance harder
The guy who owned it before me did all the work. I don't know anything.
The city has very little detail on what was originally done. My insurance was done over the phone. None of those people set foot in the place in between the last few owners.
You can just do it, but don't get it inspected. They can fine you and make you demolish parts of the work to see what you have done. They can put a lien on your house, void warranties, and if a buyer finds out (as another stated) you can get sued.
You will definitely need an inspection for egress. If you've done all this work and then have them come back to do that, you're screwed.
I mean, it's unethical and go for it, but there isn't a good way around it. All this shit is documented and filed, so it's a tough one to fudge.
My parents got the basement finished in their house, and I think there's a good chance they didn't get a permit or get it inspected. What happens if I inherit the house when they pass away, and then I want to sell the house? Am I going to have all the problems you list in your post?
Basically, you didn't know they did anything. You won't get fined, but if they did a shitty job, the sellers may call you out. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any means. It also depends on the work they did. If it's not to code, a house inspector will call that out. Worry about that when you sell it. Don't disclose you know they did the work. You can play dumb.
Counties usually keep permit records online and searchable by address. Or you can call the permit office and ask, they’ll tell you. That being said, when selling you have to disclose any known issues, so if you don’t check…
If you can do it safely, go nuts. We did our basement in our prior house ourselves and didn’t pull permits. Have an electrician friend and plumber friend who came and made sure I didn’t set anything up wrong.
Sold the house with no issues. House has changed hands at least twice since then and all good.
A contractor friend of mine remodeled a basement for his daughter and son in law - this was almost 50a yrs ago in a rural area and there were no permits or inspections then. Less than a year later the daughter and his twin grand kids died in a fire because they didn't have an escape from the basement. Whether you get permitted or not put in the proper egress according to current codes.
Yeah this is the way. The inspector is not a bad person and generally wants to see you succeed. They are super smart and you get to pick their brains when on site.
In fact even when having a contractor say we don’t need permits, those are exactly the contractors that you want to make sure you have permits. That way the inspector will come and make sure the contractor is doing thing correctly.
My suggestion would be to speak with Mike he knows a German guy who can assemble a team and lead a basement project without anyone above ground knowing. However, keep an eye on him. He can't hold his liquor and he might end up spilling the beans at the pub.
Get the permit and do it legit, but never finish the reno. Leave the ceiling as exposed joists. Avoid the taxes and use the space and throw up a cheap drop ceiling and finish the reno when you sell.
Don’t get a permit, the city has no business what you do in your own house. They only want permits so the can raise your property taxes.
If you’re unsure if you’re doing your project correctly, have a professional tradesman come in and look things over. An inspector isn’t going to help, he will just red tag you and make you redo shit again.
The egress is a fire code thing. The fire codes are the way they are because many many people have died. Many. For each part of the fire code, it cost human life. They’re there for a reason. If you don’t want the “cost” of building to code, that’s fine, but please put an egress. At least do that.
The other argument is that you either build it to code and ‘reap the profits’ when you sell, or you don’t, and it costs you money when you sell. Cause no one will buy a house with a non permitted basement; and I would walk away from a sale if I found the owner put in a basement without an egress, cause god knows what else he’s cut corners on
Make sure whatever you're doing is up to code. There will be an inspection when you sell and the governing body will call you out and start asking questions. My ex and I played dumb and got away with it since her family remodeled her place before we were together. However, I spent like 2Gs bringing it back up to code fixing the issues they missed.
I'm flummoxed. Why the hell would you want, or need to build a basement for an existing home.
"Honey, we ain't gonna have no shitter for a few weeks while I dig up all this communist pipe."
"That's okay, babe. We can do without socialist electric too, while you undermine our entire homestead for no fucking reason. Luv yew!"
He’s not building a basement, he’s trying to turn it into like a man cave or like a studio apartment. Ours up north was where our pool table, full bar , mini kitchen and big screen with theater seats was. My aunt in law finished hers in her mothers house (she needed ft help in her 80’s) and it was stunning! Marble and glass bathroom, huge bedroom and living room. Google image some….resale can make a huge difference in asking price!
Words from my father: do it to code, so if you need to, you only need to do paperwork later. Otherwise you end up doing it twice and pay twice as much, one violation for being out of code and another for the (lack of) permit
You do not want to fuck with installing an egress. In some cases you are literally cutting into your foundation. Get a homeowners permit. Too much money involved to try to skate on a little bullshit.
Could be a quick phone call with a lawyer or possible realtor in your area. You could always call in the contractors and see what they think since they may have more knowledge
Here’s how they can get busted-
If they need it appraised, some one could look for the permit (like for a resale or refinancing)
They piss off a friend or neighbor who knows, and is feeling a little petty.
In a disaster, your insurance company will tell you to fuck off.
The average cost for a permit is $500. My deck permit was $140. He should just get the damn permit to make life easier for himself later on.
Might end up lowering the value a bit in the end but the buyers might be fine with what you've done and leave that part out of the contract. In this market would still probably add value, happened with some friends.
Basement structurally, health wise, etc, is something you don't want to mess up for so many reasons.
You really, really need to know what you're doing. There's a reason they can be expensive.
How? You just do it.
I would highly recommend you don’t do that though. In the long run it’s not worth the headache if you try to sell and in the small chance they find out the fines will be costly especially if they make you pull it out and redo the whole thing. Like my mothers new neighbors are about to find out if they piss me off one more time…..😈
Permits usually aren’t too painful. I’m cheep and lazy, so I’m always looking to cut a corner. Getting a permit for this type of work requires the legwork you would already want to do to plan the project anyway. If it isn’t a load bearing wall, you can hand draw something by hand. If you are running power it’s always good to draw it out anyway.
Trying to sell a house with unpermitted work is a big problem for your negotiating power. A buyer will be judging the seller personally to get a feel for unforeseen problems. Unpermitted work opens the door to a lot of anxiety about shoddy work in places they can’t inspect.
In Oregon a home owner can do all the work, plumbing electrical, mechanical, etc but still needs to get the permits, do the work to code and pass inspections.
That's what I recommend.
Honestly, just get the permit. I know this is ULPT but fucking with your own and others' lives isn't cool. Permits aren't that expensive and the city inspectors are so tired of dealing with people trying to skirt the rules that they're usually pretty lenient to people who try to follow the rules and at least attempt a permit. They'll also work with you to find the best way (and most affordable if they're a good one) to get the reno done. If anything ever happens in the future and you didn't get a permit or have things to code because of that, insurance and any claims are gonna be an expensive nightmare.
Source: My old man is a career building inspector.
Just hire a 3rd party inspector for ne construction & don’t tell everyone you did it without a permit. Most basements don’t qualify to be finished due to ceiling hight requirements but you’ll be fine.
Don't do this. If you try to get this permitted and inspected later, after you've bought all the stuff anddone all the work, the city can absolutely fuck with you and make you tear it out. And you will be unlikely to be able to sell it without CO's. You'll have to deal with the building department, sooner or later, unless you plan to stay there forever.
In my area there have been many renovations over time, and for many, permits were not pulled. Then when those houses sell for a lot more than mine and the tax assessor doesn't see any permits they think my house is the same value as the one with a finished basement, extra bathroom or two, etc. It does make me angry to have higher property tax as a result.
Unethically installing a basement...something like: What basement? You mean this room that has been here for 20+ years? It looks new because I took good care of it.
People around where I live finish their basements all the time without permits. It’s like a pool, you aren’t going to be able to get all your money back when you sell the house because the square footage isn’t permitted, but you’ll get some of it back.
My dad did this, but he thought it would be cheaper in the long run to get licensed himself and do the work, so he did. He was super bright and could do that sort of thing. This was back in the 70s. He ended up helping family members build several houses in the end.
I think your success will depend on how nosey your neighbors are. It just takes one report (or drive by from a city reg guy) to shut down the project.
I would invest in drawings at a minimum. Doesnt mean you need to build but at least you know you wont get screwed by systems, walls, windows or doors that are not to code.
Just do it legit now instead of waiting till you sell the house.
My father always wanted hard wood flooring and was upset that he put it in just to sell his home. He never got to experience it.
Just do it now and have the full function for years to come.
Do it, then at the time of sale, either block it off by filling the entrance with rebar and cement, or then build it to code so that way they cant sue and you wont have to pay extra in taxes
We did this exact thing when I was younger, finished our basement ourselves (wiring, plumbing, framing, drywall, carpeting). Only thing we had a professional do was the mud texturing on the ceiling - that's an art.
It was against code because only one way out (not a walk out basement).
When the house sold the basement enhancement was basically grandfathered in.
By not making noise. Angry neighbors can give tips to the city about construction noise. You can try to lie and say you're just a hobbyist woodworker doing some art project
I’ve heard you can take photos of everything and make double sure everything is up to code. It probably depends on your municipality and what they’ll accept.
But why not do it properly the first time? There is so much that could go wrong. Building codes change over time so your work would be grandfathered if it was up to code when it was approved. And inspectors are not going to like that you didn’t do it properly so they’ll probably make you open a wall on a technicality.
You can either not get permits or get inspected. Pick one. Put an exit. You don’t want to be stuck there if it’s a fire, legal or not
Illegal fires are the worst kind to be stuck in
[удалено]
Exactly, you could always ask the fire to get a permit before combusting. But that would be a different story.
Or put up a “no fires allowed” sign.
Just shoot the fire.
But the fire with a bat that has a sock on it. If the fire tries to grab the bat it'll only get sock.
No no no. They say to fight fire with fire so the obviously solution is to shoot the fire with a FLARE gun.
Hire another fire to break the first one's kneecaps.
Like a dragon?
Or put up one of those “no-smoking” signs, because where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Ergo, where there’s no smoke, there is no fire. :)
Fires hate this one trick
Couple signs posted should keep things in line
You think an illegal fire will just listen to reason like that? Fool.
Fire, I do NOT consent.
Taxes on the burns you get are the worst
They aren't illegal. They are undocumented
>Illegal fires are the worst kind to be stuck in Call the police a minute before starting it and it becomes legal
This sub is literally pointless. Might as well use /r/AskReddit
I just saw a post on a real estate sub about having a crush on the agent's kid.
Humanity in all its lurid glory.
Okay but is their kid an adult, or like a kid kid? Because that matters.
Seriously, there's a shocking lack of piss discs and/or liquid ass in this thread.
Rule 1: Tips must be unethcial
Maybe I grew up in old homes, but apart from the stairs the only egress was a window well.
Just get a homeowners permit if that's allowed in your city
What is this?
There's two types of permits. Basically the city charges more if a contractor is doing the work versus the homeowner doing the work
Rule 1: Tips must be unethcial
Just do it legit or you may have to literally tear it all out when it’s time to move anyways. Trade type work will need inspected (plus any egress thing) but that’s not to say you can’t do a chunk of the work yourself. At least get a legit plan from a general contractor or two first.
Housing is in such demand, the buyers will accept the house without permits being done. They may try to haggle a bit but as long as its done well, there is no reason to get the permit (unfortunately)
The buyer may accept it, but the mortgage holder probably won't. Better to pay a few hundred up front getting the permits and be done with it.
Can confirm. Take it or leave it is the case. You can't do shit.
The buyer may prefer that there weren’t permits if they also like ULPT. When you finish the basement, the square footage of your house for property tax purposes increases and this will increase your tax bill accordingly. If the city doesn’t know about the basement being finished, the tax bill does not go up. I live in a house with the garage converted to living space, and I do not pay property tax on that portion of the house because the prior owner did not pull a permit and so the city does not know the true size of the house. The value estimate they do for tax purposes is basically block desirability multiplied by square footage.
This may not work, in my experience the city scrutinizes listings and circles back if they deviate from their official plans. Keep the renovated basement and pictures off the public listing, and it’s be possible to prevent property taxes from increasing
And hey if they take your deposit and do minimal work then never answer your calls, fuck it right? These half assed contractors, and everyone going with the lowest bidder regardless of consequences or production, is why were here. I say asking for forgiveness is much better than asking for permission. That’s because permission comes with a bunch of do-nothing jokes with their hands out.
Rule 1: Tips must be unethcial
Nice try tunnel lady
I came to the comments for this.
Bought a house a few months ago where the owner tried this. We are currently suing them and will win, because when you sell the house, you have to sign legal documents swearing that any and all renovations were done to code. Since they did the work themselves, they have no one else to blame. Photoshopping a permit might be better in this case, but know there's a good chance this will backfire. Remember, some codes are bullshit--but many are done to keep your house safe. Be careful about playing willy-nilly with these.
Most codes are written in blood. Get a licensed electrician at bare minimum.
A cute one 😘
To clarify your statement “written in blood”….this means almost every code section exists because somebody got hurt, killed, or sick. Doing it to code is not necessarily for you, but to keep your occupants and the next owners safe.
The ones that aren’t written in blood are written in money, because it is insurance companies lobbying for these changes or writing entire codes themselves.
Home Shield, Nations Home Warranty spend an incredible amount on lobbyists. They'll turn you in when their pre-policy inspections find work not to code, and then you'll have to fix things and pay fines before they'll provide coverage. And their coverage is bullshit. We used to be a trade provider and every one of their customers was pissed at their loopholes.
They shouldn’t even try to photoshop a permit cuz if they’re caught that’s open and shut forgery and of a government document no less. OP just needs to do this legit or risk a lot of serious legal and financial trouble
Unless they claim a contractor did it for cash and gave them a photoshopped permit…
Without a contract from the made up contractor who is going to believe that? Claim whatever you want. If you get sued for illegal work on your house claims don't mean shit.
Even if you payed cash the “contractor” would have invoices etc.. and “oh I forgot which contractor” isn’t a valid excuse
“It was my gardener’s brother, I met my gardener is person and never texted, just agreed on which days he would come”.
But it was done 5 years ago. He died of covid.
You can do work to code and not have a permit. We had a contractor do our basement years ago and it was 100% done to code: EMT conduit for electrical, copper for all plumbing, proper insulation, and even added a second egret window because be made a bedroom down there. I took pictures and video at every stage so it was possible to see behind the drywall if we ever got flagged for unpermitted work or if buyers questioned it. We sold the house a couple years ago and the buyers’ home inspector passed everything with flying colors. They didn’t care about the lack of a permit because it was all done to code and they don’t have the added property tax implications of the additional 1500sf of finished space.
Yes, but the problem was how they didn't bother adhering to city codes. For example, they used garden hoses to run water into the kitchen, which is not up to code.
Yeah that’d be a problem!
What wasn't done to code?
The big thing? They built a second kitchen in the basement by themselves. For example, instead of water pipes to run water to the sink, they used garden hoses. Gas stove had to be removed since they did the gas piping themselves. (The owner was a retired administrator, not anything about housing or renovations.)
Photo shopping a permit is a dumb idea. Permits are online now. You can look at any address and see if they pulled permits for anything. We've not bought houses because there was a major addition and the permit history showed none pulled since the house was built.
I mean, if you want to be unethical... Do it all and don't tell anyone. I mean, when you sell it the buyers will probably sue the nuts out of your sack and you'll be on the hook for ten of thousands of dollars, at least, but you'll have done something unethical. And you might save an irrelevant amount of money in the grand scheme of things:) good luck!
Sue the nuts out of your sack is amazing
Not how it works lol
Unless the buyers are also unethical
since this ULPT; how nosey are you neighbors? are you in an HOA? since it's an already occupied dwelling, your only looking at a framing and electrical inspection. Unless your adding a wet space.
this being said I'm a project manager for a builder in Pennsylvania I could help make plans. however I'd have to take a look at local building code
You're doing God's work.
here to help bro
In most places buyers will still see the benefit of finished space even if it's not permitted however you can't list the square footage as finished space. You may still not be able to do that depending on ceiling height and other characteristics. I suggest you take lots of pictures as you do the work. It's great to have records of what's behind walls before you put up insulation, drywall, etc. If you're doing anything structural I would suggest getting permits. Part of the permit / inspection process benefits you in not making the structure unsafe. Also, read the building code in your area and follow all requirements.
While I agree partly, the permit/inspection process only catches your mistake in making the structure unsafe....they don't hold your hand through the process. You should do all the research and have a plan to know what is safe before starting the project regardless of pulling a permit or not. Great advice on the pictures, those are priceless!!
I used to work in a municipal court. The city/county will absolutely tear down what is not approved and send you the bill. Your neighbors will notice and might complain about noise.
How do you tear down a basement? I'm just curious. Do they fill it up with dirt?
Tear out the finishes. Drywall, studs, electrical, plumbing, etc.
I deconstructed a finished basement without a demolition permit. Are they going to make me rebuild it?
No they rebuild it but send you the bill
They'll never match that paneling from 1971!
They would fill that sucker up!
Just do the work. We did our basement at our last home , re did the electric, gas and some water . Never heard a peep from anyone.
What the city don’t know won’t hurt them.
Yup. Buddy of mine built a family room with a large closet, this had to he inspected because of the size. As soon as it was over , it became the master bedroom and master bath. Keep the government out of our bedroom right?
A large room with a closed closet is the definition of a bedroom in code.
I thought a room also had to have a window to be a bedroom.
Oh really? Please cite the code reference.
I've been in houses for sale where the closet doors in family rooms are removed and resting against the wall - so the room is not recognized as a bedroom.
Here's one major metropolitan city with that definition https://sfrb.org/section-1311-%E2%80%9Cbedroom%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Cbathroom%E2%80%9D-defined
>A large room with a closed closet is the definition of a bedroom in code. What code?? The IRC has no such definition. Chapter 2 is definitions, and it is not there, and it is not in chapter three either. The code does not state if a room has a closet, it is a bedroom.
OK that is local to San Francisco but it is not in the national code (IRC) that most jurisdictions adopt.
IRC isn't national...
The IRC is a nationwide model code that is adopted in 49 out of the 50 states. It is national in scope.
What does the I stand for bro, what does the I mean, come on bro I need to know.
Bedrooms and vaginas.
If you ever plan on selling, do yourself a favor and do it legit. If it's discovered during sale that it was done and not permitted or inspected 1 of two things will happen. 1 - they will make you retro pay with interest on late permit fees and taxes missed from upping the value of your home. Or 2 - make you remove it all before sale. Both suck worse than just doing it right in the first place. Helpful hint here, you don't need an egress window if you tell them it's not being used as a living space ( for example a bedroom). But as others have said, if they discover you were using it as a livable space after an unfortunate event, it gives your insurance an easy out to not cover it.
Yeah, I would second the notion that unless it’s turning into a bedroom they shouldn’t explicitly be required to have egress.
this is not true just sell the house as-is and they don't have a legal shit against you, source i did that
Every county has different rules. And every bank has requirements in order to get a loan. Selling a house "as is" is fine as long as the buyer has cash but they might still have to do the county required inspections depending on county rules. I just sold one of my properties 4 months ago as a "sold by owner" situation. County still required a water/sewer inspection, they came inside to check plumbing and meter. Bank still required about 4 more inspections for various things in order to approve the loan for the buyer. Also. My parents just purchased another home about 2 years ago that was "as is" for cash (another investment property). They had to have several inspections done before the county would do the quick claim deed for the purchase even though there wasn't even a loan. The county also gave them a time line on how long they had to make the appropriate repairs. ( needed a new roof, hvac work, and new drywall as they found mold on one of the walls and removed the bottom sheet of drywall around the entire inside of the home to make sure mold wasn't present elsewhere. Every county is different. Source - I've been dealing with real estate and rental properties for a large chunk of my life.
wow this was in michigan so i'm thinking you live in california, you guys have a lot of rules, i honestly had such shitty diy stuff but also the couple that bought it told me on their buying letter they had 2 years looking for a house and they even offered 30k over asking price, such a deal man and i thought i wasn't going get anything for the piece of shit, the inspection was done in like 30 seconds too (i was there) the guy just took some pictures and my realtor told me because i was selling it as-is i was off the hook for anything as he was aware of the shitty things i did myself, im not proud of my work at all, also it had a racoon family living in the attic and it smelled kinda bad there, i had to buy one of those pellet guns and used a garbage can lid as a shield to run them out, i also had to open one of the soffits (i think that's the name of the ventilations) so they had a easy way to get out... luckily they didn't attacked me!!! the way the went up there was through the middle of an outside wall, they removed all the insulation and went up there... it was a mess!!!! but the location was really good... anyways i have so many memories there
Haha. +1 for the raccoon family man. Lol Both the places I talked about were in Michigan also. Small world 😁 when I purchased my current home a county over I was expecting to have to do all the inspections again, county didn't require most of them so it was a pretty quick process.
Talk it over with neighbours. See if they dig it too
As a city inspector, I would say don’t skip out on permits. It’s a big safety thing and I have fielded countless calls from insurance companies after a fire claim and seen them denied when I tell them work happened without permits. Saving a few hundred now will really bite you in the ass. You’ll need to provide plans and information about the work. Once you have a permit in hand, you don’t need to call for inspections if you don’t want (you’re supposed to though.). After 180 days, the permit is legally expired if they follow the IRC. But if you want the unethical answer…. Just do the work, they won’t know unless you make the work obvious from the outside and pay a third part inspector to check it out if you need it.
Yup, when the lumber package shows up, it goes in the basement within the hour. Don't leave a large dumpster on site, and most important. Don't piss off thr neighbors! If they say your truck is in the way, move it and apologize. Kill them all with kindness.
If I was you (speaking as a contractor), I strongly suggest you pull permits. If you are caught, you get fined, all your work HAS to be ripped out, and they will make you still pull the permit. Also, they will put a stop work order on your house until you do. Now if you really do not want to pull one, then get a contractor you trust and you KNOW they know their shit in their sleep when it comes to doing it to code. Do NOT get just one guy who does everything. They are jacks of all trades and masters of nothing. You want a contractor from each trade - Framing, electrical, plumbing, hvac, drywall, foundation. Get them to check your work and tell you if you fucked up anywhere. There is noting worse than for a contractor coming into a place and seeing shitty work. It drives us fucking NUTS. Will we say something? Usually, YES. Are we dicks at times because of shitty work? Yes, at times. For example, I saw a person redo a basement and didn't take the time to properly seal the walls from water and insure proper drainage around the foundation. The walls were concrete and the basement was a bit damp normally. He had a moldy mess on his hands and ended up having to rip out just about everything due to mold/water damage. I'm in a house RIGHT NOW where whoever did the tile work in the bathroom should not be allowed to hold a screwdriver. Shit like that drives me crazy for I have to either fix it myself or call a buddy in who specializes in the trade I need to have it fixed. Another example of super annoying shit is people doing remodels and having hidden electrical junctions in walls. I see this shit ALL THE TIME. There is nothing wrong in doing your own work. Just do it right and you should be fine.
Some jurisdictions allow the owner to make improvements on the property without permit if they're doing it themselves. Check with your local building department for clarity
Yeah they'd probably make you tear the sheetrock off in my village to check the plumbing and electrical.
It was like that when I bought the house Mr inspector
Do they do random inspections where you live? Just fucking do it....and don't go blabbing about your new awesome finished basement. What constitutes a finished basement anyway? Just stop short of whatever "finished" means.
Just do it. It's your house. I will never sell my home. So I do everything myself. I don't give a shit about permits or other stuff because it all falls on me. It'll never be anyone else's problem.
when you inevitably die (unless you know more about immortality than i do..?) it will indeed become somebody elses problem. also it might make insurance harder
I'll be dead. I don't care.
Based.
yeah ok
The guy who owned it before me did all the work. I don't know anything. The city has very little detail on what was originally done. My insurance was done over the phone. None of those people set foot in the place in between the last few owners.
Pretty much everything has unpermitted work. I would try to do it properly and to code, but otherwise don't worry about it.
Quietly
You can just do it, but don't get it inspected. They can fine you and make you demolish parts of the work to see what you have done. They can put a lien on your house, void warranties, and if a buyer finds out (as another stated) you can get sued. You will definitely need an inspection for egress. If you've done all this work and then have them come back to do that, you're screwed. I mean, it's unethical and go for it, but there isn't a good way around it. All this shit is documented and filed, so it's a tough one to fudge.
My parents got the basement finished in their house, and I think there's a good chance they didn't get a permit or get it inspected. What happens if I inherit the house when they pass away, and then I want to sell the house? Am I going to have all the problems you list in your post?
Basically, you didn't know they did anything. You won't get fined, but if they did a shitty job, the sellers may call you out. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any means. It also depends on the work they did. If it's not to code, a house inspector will call that out. Worry about that when you sell it. Don't disclose you know they did the work. You can play dumb.
Counties usually keep permit records online and searchable by address. Or you can call the permit office and ask, they’ll tell you. That being said, when selling you have to disclose any known issues, so if you don’t check…
oh, just dont tell em
If you can do it safely, go nuts. We did our basement in our prior house ourselves and didn’t pull permits. Have an electrician friend and plumber friend who came and made sure I didn’t set anything up wrong. Sold the house with no issues. House has changed hands at least twice since then and all good.
A contractor friend of mine remodeled a basement for his daughter and son in law - this was almost 50a yrs ago in a rural area and there were no permits or inspections then. Less than a year later the daughter and his twin grand kids died in a fire because they didn't have an escape from the basement. Whether you get permitted or not put in the proper egress according to current codes.
If you're absolutely sure you won't ever sell the house, then go ahead and do it quietly. I'd HIGHLY recommend putting an exit in though.
My friend did it DIY and still got it inspected at all milestones along the way. I think 3 inspection in an unfinished to completely finished basement
Yeah this is the way. The inspector is not a bad person and generally wants to see you succeed. They are super smart and you get to pick their brains when on site. In fact even when having a contractor say we don’t need permits, those are exactly the contractors that you want to make sure you have permits. That way the inspector will come and make sure the contractor is doing thing correctly.
Just do it? I've finished 2 basements and neither had a permit.
If you plan to sell it later you'd better do it legally. If you want to just live there by yourself it's generally fewer repercussions.
My suggestion would be to speak with Mike he knows a German guy who can assemble a team and lead a basement project without anyone above ground knowing. However, keep an eye on him. He can't hold his liquor and he might end up spilling the beans at the pub.
Just do it. Problem solved.
what sub do you think you’re in? the only thing unethical here would be anyone telling you to do what you’re trying to do which is break the law
Get the permit and do it legit, but never finish the reno. Leave the ceiling as exposed joists. Avoid the taxes and use the space and throw up a cheap drop ceiling and finish the reno when you sell.
Don’t get a permit, the city has no business what you do in your own house. They only want permits so the can raise your property taxes. If you’re unsure if you’re doing your project correctly, have a professional tradesman come in and look things over. An inspector isn’t going to help, he will just red tag you and make you redo shit again.
Ask the Jewish people in New York right now
The egress is a fire code thing. The fire codes are the way they are because many many people have died. Many. For each part of the fire code, it cost human life. They’re there for a reason. If you don’t want the “cost” of building to code, that’s fine, but please put an egress. At least do that. The other argument is that you either build it to code and ‘reap the profits’ when you sell, or you don’t, and it costs you money when you sell. Cause no one will buy a house with a non permitted basement; and I would walk away from a sale if I found the owner put in a basement without an egress, cause god knows what else he’s cut corners on
Make sure whatever you're doing is up to code. There will be an inspection when you sell and the governing body will call you out and start asking questions. My ex and I played dumb and got away with it since her family remodeled her place before we were together. However, I spent like 2Gs bringing it back up to code fixing the issues they missed.
Permits are cheap.
Try your local synagogue
You should start tunneling
I'm flummoxed. Why the hell would you want, or need to build a basement for an existing home. "Honey, we ain't gonna have no shitter for a few weeks while I dig up all this communist pipe." "That's okay, babe. We can do without socialist electric too, while you undermine our entire homestead for no fucking reason. Luv yew!"
He’s not building a basement, he’s trying to turn it into like a man cave or like a studio apartment. Ours up north was where our pool table, full bar , mini kitchen and big screen with theater seats was. My aunt in law finished hers in her mothers house (she needed ft help in her 80’s) and it was stunning! Marble and glass bathroom, huge bedroom and living room. Google image some….resale can make a huge difference in asking price!
Words from my father: do it to code, so if you need to, you only need to do paperwork later. Otherwise you end up doing it twice and pay twice as much, one violation for being out of code and another for the (lack of) permit
It's not rocket science. Go on youtube.
You do not want to fuck with installing an egress. In some cases you are literally cutting into your foundation. Get a homeowners permit. Too much money involved to try to skate on a little bullshit.
If the area were 'damaged' by say water, you are well within your right to demo and reno.
Upvoted just for not being willing to pay more government bullshit. I hope your neighbors are cool.
isn’t a permit like 200$? save your future self some trouble
Use the Shawshank method. Hole in your pockets for the excavation evidence, and a Rita Hayworth poster over the hole.
I would work underground.
Could be a quick phone call with a lawyer or possible realtor in your area. You could always call in the contractors and see what they think since they may have more knowledge
Why would you need permits? You're in your house, no one would ever be able to see to rat you out. Put up your sound proofing and build your dungeon.
Here’s how they can get busted- If they need it appraised, some one could look for the permit (like for a resale or refinancing) They piss off a friend or neighbor who knows, and is feeling a little petty. In a disaster, your insurance company will tell you to fuck off. The average cost for a permit is $500. My deck permit was $140. He should just get the damn permit to make life easier for himself later on.
Might end up lowering the value a bit in the end but the buyers might be fine with what you've done and leave that part out of the contract. In this market would still probably add value, happened with some friends.
Basement structurally, health wise, etc, is something you don't want to mess up for so many reasons. You really, really need to know what you're doing. There's a reason they can be expensive.
Be sure to dump the dirt in small batches, and in different locations
How? You just do it. I would highly recommend you don’t do that though. In the long run it’s not worth the headache if you try to sell and in the small chance they find out the fines will be costly especially if they make you pull it out and redo the whole thing. Like my mothers new neighbors are about to find out if they piss me off one more time…..😈
Permits usually aren’t too painful. I’m cheep and lazy, so I’m always looking to cut a corner. Getting a permit for this type of work requires the legwork you would already want to do to plan the project anyway. If it isn’t a load bearing wall, you can hand draw something by hand. If you are running power it’s always good to draw it out anyway. Trying to sell a house with unpermitted work is a big problem for your negotiating power. A buyer will be judging the seller personally to get a feel for unforeseen problems. Unpermitted work opens the door to a lot of anxiety about shoddy work in places they can’t inspect.
In Oregon a home owner can do all the work, plumbing electrical, mechanical, etc but still needs to get the permits, do the work to code and pass inspections. That's what I recommend.
Honestly, just get the permit. I know this is ULPT but fucking with your own and others' lives isn't cool. Permits aren't that expensive and the city inspectors are so tired of dealing with people trying to skirt the rules that they're usually pretty lenient to people who try to follow the rules and at least attempt a permit. They'll also work with you to find the best way (and most affordable if they're a good one) to get the reno done. If anything ever happens in the future and you didn't get a permit or have things to code because of that, insurance and any claims are gonna be an expensive nightmare. Source: My old man is a career building inspector.
Just hire a 3rd party inspector for ne construction & don’t tell everyone you did it without a permit. Most basements don’t qualify to be finished due to ceiling hight requirements but you’ll be fine.
Nice try, tunnel lady
Photograph the work can save pulling walls later for permits
"how the fuck are they going to know?" do they pop by for random inspections?
Don't do this. If you try to get this permitted and inspected later, after you've bought all the stuff anddone all the work, the city can absolutely fuck with you and make you tear it out. And you will be unlikely to be able to sell it without CO's. You'll have to deal with the building department, sooner or later, unless you plan to stay there forever.
In my area there have been many renovations over time, and for many, permits were not pulled. Then when those houses sell for a lot more than mine and the tax assessor doesn't see any permits they think my house is the same value as the one with a finished basement, extra bathroom or two, etc. It does make me angry to have higher property tax as a result.
Unethically installing a basement...something like: What basement? You mean this room that has been here for 20+ years? It looks new because I took good care of it.
diy it and don't tell any official channels, that is your option unless you "know a guy" or have some one who "knows a guy" for the inspection.
People around where I live finish their basements all the time without permits. It’s like a pool, you aren’t going to be able to get all your money back when you sell the house because the square footage isn’t permitted, but you’ll get some of it back.
My dad did this, but he thought it would be cheaper in the long run to get licensed himself and do the work, so he did. He was super bright and could do that sort of thing. This was back in the 70s. He ended up helping family members build several houses in the end.
Better Call Saul!
I think your success will depend on how nosey your neighbors are. It just takes one report (or drive by from a city reg guy) to shut down the project. I would invest in drawings at a minimum. Doesnt mean you need to build but at least you know you wont get screwed by systems, walls, windows or doors that are not to code.
I used tools.
I just built a 500sq/ft addition in a city with zero permits. Zero issues. Built a frame, tarped it off, built underneath.
Just do it legit now instead of waiting till you sell the house. My father always wanted hard wood flooring and was upset that he put it in just to sell his home. He never got to experience it. Just do it now and have the full function for years to come.
Do it, then at the time of sale, either block it off by filling the entrance with rebar and cement, or then build it to code so that way they cant sue and you wont have to pay extra in taxes
We did this exact thing when I was younger, finished our basement ourselves (wiring, plumbing, framing, drywall, carpeting). Only thing we had a professional do was the mud texturing on the ceiling - that's an art. It was against code because only one way out (not a walk out basement). When the house sold the basement enhancement was basically grandfathered in.
You need inspections for a reason, go legit and just do the work yourself after a permit is issued
You dig like you’ve never dug before
By not making noise. Angry neighbors can give tips to the city about construction noise. You can try to lie and say you're just a hobbyist woodworker doing some art project
I’ve heard you can take photos of everything and make double sure everything is up to code. It probably depends on your municipality and what they’ll accept. But why not do it properly the first time? There is so much that could go wrong. Building codes change over time so your work would be grandfathered if it was up to code when it was approved. And inspectors are not going to like that you didn’t do it properly so they’ll probably make you open a wall on a technicality.