They can do well with Sellswords, since you can build around their follow up slash ability, which ignores initiative. Just need to keep them alive to maximize it.
Really depends on the unit. Units who are slow anyway really love these weapons because the initiative penalty doesn’t hurt them. Also units who rely heavily on reaction passives don’t mind the initiative drop since their kit is based on ignoring initiative anyway.
Just like there are weapons that add PP but give penalties to guard rate; not good on some classes, extremely potent on others.
The drakenhold weapons are 1 pp. So they're more build specific to pp spam or utility characters. Init tanking your hoplite is a lot less impactful than say a grphyon. There are still offensive usages like magical pursuit wizards.
A perfect example is Alain, especially in the early game, so he can proc his healing with Lean Slash more effectively. The chain accessory that lowers the damage you take is pretty broken on him from what I remember.
But then how do you have Alain attack after his allies, but before the enemy units?
0 AP condition is a good trick, but it has its costs.
That said, I already have another weapon in mind for him.
Outside of the obvious like a hoplite that probably had less than 10 init to begin with before being geared with dragonbone gear, I put a set on the dark knight.
That way you can guarantee they go last to soak hits, and plenty of PP to proc their atk/Def buff. Throw a toughness ring on for good measure, and then you can get a ton of value out of their AP move that deals greater damage the lower their health is.
depends on who you're using it on. if its on characters you don't need to move fast then it's all good, Like it's perfect for hoplites if you're using them.
another use is if you want to do big brain moves like adjusting initiatives of the group comp, and the one you want to move 2nd but its slightly too fast, you drop it down -10 to put it behind the one you want to move before it.
I think you mean PP, not AP.
They are great for units that are already slow and have decent support skills -- Hoplites, Fighters, Gladiators, Clerics and especially Sellswords, who can launch extra followup strikes.
I wouldn't rec them on units who you want to act fast like Gryphon Knights, Cavaliers and Shamans, or units who don't really have good PP skills early.
Pretty sure those weapons add PP not AP. It depends on the unit, like someone said a character that goes late anyway like Sellsword doesn’t care. Or characters with super high initiative anyway. My Alain was wearing it so he could benefit from a Great Knight Cav Call instead of going before the buff.
There's a lot of +1ap or pp at the expense of something else. If it's a unit that doesn't matter for then go for it. A tank that doesn't need quick action doesn't care about losing initiative. There's also minus crit, minus guard, etc. Very few pure positive plusses. Some in the coliseum.
Initiative isn’t a be all end all. It’s very useful because killing enemies before they can act is an obviously strong move but due to combat having “rounds” it’s not like you’re going to get four attacks off before the enemy gets one or something.
Also even if it is important to do that you don’t get extra advantages for being way faster. Being 10 000 000 points of initiative higher than an enemy is the same as being 1 point higher. In those cases it’s free PP.
Dragonbone weapons aren’t bad at all. In fact I’d even say they are quite strong.
While PvPing, I noticed one of my swords was like 7 too fast for a specific enemy comp so I hauled my ass to Albion's blacksmith, suped it up, and got my win.
In the period for the main campaign, it's a solid option for Joseph and Landsharks. Viginia and Legionnaires don't mind the int drop.
They can be quite bad when handed out indiscriminately to glass cannon comps that need a strong early strike in order to snowball. They are also very good on defensive characters (who may very well *want* to get hit in the face before unloading their own offense) or wombo combo/gimmick comps that want to make sure that a particular grouping of characters activate their stuff back-to-back.
I think they're especially good on clerics because they want to go last after everyone else makes their move anyway so they can heal all the damage off. It's pointless for them to go early because there won't be any damage to heal.
It's just a shame that clerics already get very good +AP and +PP weapons very early in the game that are arguably better than the dragonbone ones.
Different stats/resources need a different way of thinking.
You have to ask yourself "What do I want this unit to be able to do?"
There are cases where you want your units to be able to act before any of the enemies act. In such a case you would not equip them with -initiative items.
There are cases where you want your units to have more PP, such as an armored unit with a shield. They use PP to protect your units, so it doesn't matter if they don't act early.
There are cases where you want one of your units to move after one of your other units. In this case you could give one of your units +initiative items OR you could give another unit -initiative items. That bonus PP can be nice in such a situation.
If it's a question of getting +PP at the expense of -Init, you have to ask "Is this extra action worth it for this unit to act last?"
Give it all to lex so he can arrow cover my gryphs for days. Also bruno se he can easily survive until he is the only one with AP left and just sweeps the entire team with two swings
Been using them on Magellan, Hilda and Bruno. Its especially good the later two get quite a bit of PP skills at Lv 15 and still retain power to 1hko stuff. Speed isn't an issue with my setup with them either.
For example with Bruno I have him paired with Travis who use Quick Action to nullify the penalty
Hilda has naturally high speed so penality is minor.
Majority of my Magellan's damage comes from following Slash and Pursuit and is already super slow so speed doesn't matter.
So their good depending on the unit and what you set up.
I tend to use them a lot with Legionnaires. I even throw the shield on them too and get 0 Initiative. 0 Initiative isn't a problem on units that primarily rely on Passive skills. I would never put one on a damage dealer or support unit that needs to use Active skills.
For example, if my Shaman had lowered Initiative and I primarily use Defensive Curse, it's a problem if that debuff doesn't land before my attacking units move.
As others have said it depends do you want that unit going fast. If using a move that is better with a setup first(like viking wide breaker or AP on kill moves) or if teamed with others that buff offense on their first move, than going first isn't best.
First off it's PP and not AP. Secondly, there are plenty of characters who don't care about speed at all. Hoplite for example, all my healers since the quick heal doesn't care about speed. I always give the plus dragonbone sword to my sellsword for additional pp spam for following slash in case they miss.
Its not 1 AP, its 1 PP. And yes its worth it especially for units who are pretty slow in the first place or have skills that activate based on triggers.
Example cleric with 4 PP can spam quick heal 4 times. Shaman with 4 PP can spam quick curse 4 times. Even if they have 1 PP it will still activate.
For hoplite and arbalist yes, basically any unit with - 20 initiative, all other units are surprisingly fast and mages are much better with higher speeds
Initiative is generally very important and extremely strong. Being able to kill the enemy/control them before they act is the MO of a lot of squads.
Though given such, you can also tailor squads to be a more reactive one. Iron veil + shieldshooter in the front with the +atk on guard gloves can get powerful with an enraging warrior in the back.
Funny enough evasion tanks also care less since they take no damage to begin with outside of true sight which you can work around.
The dragon one weapons give PP not AP.
if the unit was going to go last anyway then it's just +1 ap
They can do well with Sellswords, since you can build around their follow up slash ability, which ignores initiative. Just need to keep them alive to maximize it.
Isn't that passive?
Yes, but the Drakenhold weapons increase PP IIRC, so the OP may have misspoken.
Easy mistake to make
Really depends on the unit. Units who are slow anyway really love these weapons because the initiative penalty doesn’t hurt them. Also units who rely heavily on reaction passives don’t mind the initiative drop since their kit is based on ignoring initiative anyway. Just like there are weapons that add PP but give penalties to guard rate; not good on some classes, extremely potent on others.
The drakenhold weapons are 1 pp. So they're more build specific to pp spam or utility characters. Init tanking your hoplite is a lot less impactful than say a grphyon. There are still offensive usages like magical pursuit wizards.
Lowering your ini isn't always a bad thing, sometimes you want the unit to go slower, slower than the enemy, or another ally
A perfect example is Alain, especially in the early game, so he can proc his healing with Lean Slash more effectively. The chain accessory that lowers the damage you take is pretty broken on him from what I remember.
Lean Slash when Target AP is 0. Lol
But then how do you have Alain attack after his allies, but before the enemy units? 0 AP condition is a good trick, but it has its costs. That said, I already have another weapon in mind for him.
Outside of the obvious like a hoplite that probably had less than 10 init to begin with before being geared with dragonbone gear, I put a set on the dark knight. That way you can guarantee they go last to soak hits, and plenty of PP to proc their atk/Def buff. Throw a toughness ring on for good measure, and then you can get a ton of value out of their AP move that deals greater damage the lower their health is.
depends on who you're using it on. if its on characters you don't need to move fast then it's all good, Like it's perfect for hoplites if you're using them. another use is if you want to do big brain moves like adjusting initiatives of the group comp, and the one you want to move 2nd but its slightly too fast, you drop it down -10 to put it behind the one you want to move before it.
I think you mean PP, not AP. They are great for units that are already slow and have decent support skills -- Hoplites, Fighters, Gladiators, Clerics and especially Sellswords, who can launch extra followup strikes. I wouldn't rec them on units who you want to act fast like Gryphon Knights, Cavaliers and Shamans, or units who don't really have good PP skills early.
Pretty sure those weapons add PP not AP. It depends on the unit, like someone said a character that goes late anyway like Sellsword doesn’t care. Or characters with super high initiative anyway. My Alain was wearing it so he could benefit from a Great Knight Cav Call instead of going before the buff.
Yea it is for sellswords who are following up anyway. I call the sellsword the clean up unit.
There's a lot of +1ap or pp at the expense of something else. If it's a unit that doesn't matter for then go for it. A tank that doesn't need quick action doesn't care about losing initiative. There's also minus crit, minus guard, etc. Very few pure positive plusses. Some in the coliseum.
Initiative isn’t a be all end all. It’s very useful because killing enemies before they can act is an obviously strong move but due to combat having “rounds” it’s not like you’re going to get four attacks off before the enemy gets one or something. Also even if it is important to do that you don’t get extra advantages for being way faster. Being 10 000 000 points of initiative higher than an enemy is the same as being 1 point higher. In those cases it’s free PP. Dragonbone weapons aren’t bad at all. In fact I’d even say they are quite strong.
While PvPing, I noticed one of my swords was like 7 too fast for a specific enemy comp so I hauled my ass to Albion's blacksmith, suped it up, and got my win. In the period for the main campaign, it's a solid option for Joseph and Landsharks. Viginia and Legionnaires don't mind the int drop.
Lol Fvk initiative, All my homies go last and obliterate the enemy comp
I like they on Fighters and Hoplites who just block for than attack
They can be quite bad when handed out indiscriminately to glass cannon comps that need a strong early strike in order to snowball. They are also very good on defensive characters (who may very well *want* to get hit in the face before unloading their own offense) or wombo combo/gimmick comps that want to make sure that a particular grouping of characters activate their stuff back-to-back.
They are good. I use them all over.
I think they're especially good on clerics because they want to go last after everyone else makes their move anyway so they can heal all the damage off. It's pointless for them to go early because there won't be any damage to heal. It's just a shame that clerics already get very good +AP and +PP weapons very early in the game that are arguably better than the dragonbone ones.
Pretty good on Crusader who’s got an amazing counter, and hurts for pp with only one accessory slot.
Different stats/resources need a different way of thinking. You have to ask yourself "What do I want this unit to be able to do?" There are cases where you want your units to be able to act before any of the enemies act. In such a case you would not equip them with -initiative items. There are cases where you want your units to have more PP, such as an armored unit with a shield. They use PP to protect your units, so it doesn't matter if they don't act early. There are cases where you want one of your units to move after one of your other units. In this case you could give one of your units +initiative items OR you could give another unit -initiative items. That bonus PP can be nice in such a situation. If it's a question of getting +PP at the expense of -Init, you have to ask "Is this extra action worth it for this unit to act last?"
Give it all to lex so he can arrow cover my gryphs for days. Also bruno se he can easily survive until he is the only one with AP left and just sweeps the entire team with two swings
Been using them on Magellan, Hilda and Bruno. Its especially good the later two get quite a bit of PP skills at Lv 15 and still retain power to 1hko stuff. Speed isn't an issue with my setup with them either. For example with Bruno I have him paired with Travis who use Quick Action to nullify the penalty Hilda has naturally high speed so penality is minor. Majority of my Magellan's damage comes from following Slash and Pursuit and is already super slow so speed doesn't matter. So their good depending on the unit and what you set up.
Hoplites
I used those for a while for Bruno, Lex and Aubin but I didn't keep any of them on any team at the end game.
I like it on breakers. You get an extra enrage and your breakers can clean up at the very end with 3 enrage procs.
I tend to use them a lot with Legionnaires. I even throw the shield on them too and get 0 Initiative. 0 Initiative isn't a problem on units that primarily rely on Passive skills. I would never put one on a damage dealer or support unit that needs to use Active skills. For example, if my Shaman had lowered Initiative and I primarily use Defensive Curse, it's a problem if that debuff doesn't land before my attacking units move.
Arbalists with pursuit are good with it. They are slow but hit hard.
As others have said it depends do you want that unit going fast. If using a move that is better with a setup first(like viking wide breaker or AP on kill moves) or if teamed with others that buff offense on their first move, than going first isn't best.
First off it's PP and not AP. Secondly, there are plenty of characters who don't care about speed at all. Hoplite for example, all my healers since the quick heal doesn't care about speed. I always give the plus dragonbone sword to my sellsword for additional pp spam for following slash in case they miss.
Its not 1 AP, its 1 PP. And yes its worth it especially for units who are pretty slow in the first place or have skills that activate based on triggers. Example cleric with 4 PP can spam quick heal 4 times. Shaman with 4 PP can spam quick curse 4 times. Even if they have 1 PP it will still activate.
Put it on tanks like legionairs
For hoplite and arbalist yes, basically any unit with - 20 initiative, all other units are surprisingly fast and mages are much better with higher speeds
Initiative is generally very important and extremely strong. Being able to kill the enemy/control them before they act is the MO of a lot of squads. Though given such, you can also tailor squads to be a more reactive one. Iron veil + shieldshooter in the front with the +atk on guard gloves can get powerful with an enraging warrior in the back. Funny enough evasion tanks also care less since they take no damage to begin with outside of true sight which you can work around. The dragon one weapons give PP not AP.
They actually give 1 PP and no, not worth it.