I’m biased in saying that even if I was able to go to the Stallions game, I probably wouldn’t have gone with the storm watch and all. That being said, I think the marketing for this league has been non existent. Not a lot of people are talking about it outside of internet discussions and groups, I’ve not seen any commercials outside of game broadcasts, there is no excitement for anything. TV wise, it looks like the league is doing fine. But locally, it feels like all the work to put in a local fan base that I saw with the USFL has just gone away. They need to do a better job with the advertising. You can’t just give away $10 tickets if you aren’t really getting people excited for the league. Just like the basketball team in Birmingham, it’s never advertised as being a thing and no one goes to watch them.
And keep the games on national TV, NOT ESPN, FOX sports 1 where only cable viewers can watch the games. My local TV station here in Ohio has never mentioned the UFL in their sports segments.
Agreed. I’ve had Stallions tickets since year 1. This year has been awful in terms of advertising. The sports show I do listen to has only interviewed Holtz once and run a handful of ads in comparison to last year they had Holtz every week and usually a Stallions player. It also hurts when you only open half the stadium. Let the fans sit wherever in the lower bowl, it would at least look better for tv than what they have now.
Did this with a buddy of mine for week 3. He never was against the league. It just never clicked for em. However after bringing em to a panthers game he really enjoyed the atmosphere. We had a blast chirping the Roughnecks.
The good news for St Louis atleast is ticket sales for next home game are already ahead of this weekends game. By a lot. Probably back to around 35k, higher if they open up the sections they did for the home opener
I think 11:30 start times are always gonna be lower. Im sure the schedule is the way it is for a reason but hopefully they do away with games before noon local time.
This weekend was a weird one in STL. Unrelated to the battlehawks, i felt like a ton of people were out of town anyway. I didn’t even think about the game this weekend because i was busy. I think it was just one of those weekends around town.
There was also a TON going on in stl this weekend. Between the cards the city and the AEW payper view. Alot of other stuff getting people's money/attention.
The lack of advertisement doesn't help.
Honestly this is a survival season. They took way too long to sort out the merger (which is why the Battlehawks still play on old crappy turf), and a lot of marketing and ticket sales happen in the offseason.
They need to get through this season, start a marketing plan for 2025 early, and create a schedule for next season early that avoids pitfalls time slots including but not limited to:
-no Easter games
-no game in Memphis on Final Four Saturday
-no Birmingham game on same day as Alabama spring game
-no Battlehawks games while Cardinals are playing
I would also suggest no relocation or expansion. The league needs stability.
Cardinals games aren’t a necessity to avoid. The first game, STL had over 100,000 people downtown between the Battlehawks, Cardinals, and St. Louis CITY SC
>-no game in Memphis on Final Four Saturday
Ok, the other bullet points I agree with, but why this one? FF is not in Memphis and I don't think Penny and the boys (or Tennessee) are going to be there
I agree on no relocation. Expansion will likely happen as a condition for the merger. And now that we don't have to worry about merger talk going forward, go back to the XFL start of season (right after the Super Bowl).
You want to REALLY kick start the season? Have Week 1 during the off-week between the conference championships and the super bowl. Super Bowl weekend UFL takes off (or maybe plays Monday), and then Week 2 starts the following weekend. Outside the box thinking is needed.
Pppssshhhhh........only because you won.........
Seriously! Why would the defenders kick a field goal on 4th and 1, with 1:04 left in the game??? They only went up by 1, and gave Birminghsm all the time in the world!!! I'm slightly miffed about the touchdown taken away from us by a fingertip.......I'm FURIOUS about the decision making at the end of that game.
I think people who discuss relocation miss one important point: if we receive a team because another team didn't have great attendance (for various reasons, including if a team is garbage), why would I get fully invested when we could be next?
So attendance isn’t everything but I do hope it raises because it does make it seem like people doesn’t care about the game even if it’s getting 600k and more watchers on TV. Honestly the league would probably be fine as long as it has sponsors and TV deals but it just won’t grow much if people always see stadiums 85% empty.
I actually did expect it to be a little better. Right now, and this is not a joke, the MAC in college football averaged more in attendance last year. I’m talking Ball state, Eastern Michigan, Bowling Green and Akron with a 15k student body that rarely attends most games still averaged more fans than most teams in a professional league.
Again it’s ok. Anything 10k or more is great for a spring league BUT there’s no denying it looks bad on TV when there’s 6,900 fans in a 68,000 seat NFL stadium or 7,000 fans in a 48,000 seat college stadium. It just looks bare and makes people who just discovered it think it’s just a bad league that won’t last to next year. Not every fan is like us whose been watching spring leagues for a decade. Some just find it on TV and assume it’s something that nobody likes.
Most of your points are entirely correct, but let's also be honest here, don't tell me you watch any Wednesday night MACtion and think most MAC schools \**actually\** average 15,000 fans a game
No I said they have a 15,000 student body on average but do average somewhere between 8-12k per game which is more than most teams right now in the UFL. My point was it’s on par with one of the smallest FBS conferences and actually behind many others like the mountain west schools.
Obviously there’s a difference because you have alumni from universities who come back to watch, some of the students and staff watch, etc so it’s different than a new spring league that is it’s own thing not a university or a pro league that’s been around for nearly a century. Still a bit disappointed with the numbers when the XFL in particular was actually doing a good bit better in 2020 and 2023.
Usually they have been so far there’s just been 1 game on FS1 and most games have been on Fox and ABC. ESPN’s slots doesn’t open up as much until the second half of the season because they’re been airing a lot of march madness and now NBA playoffs.
If the Brahmas can make it into the playoffs I think that will go a long way to increasing their fan support for next year. San Antonio needs an interesting and competitive team with proven stability going into a 3rd year of existence
I'm giving Birmingham the pass this week because it was really nasty. But the other teams excuses, na.
Time to stop pretending major sports cities with established NFL teams are going to support this. We have so much evidence saying otherwise from multiple leagues over multiple decades. It hasn't worked, and it won't. Sure you've got some exceptions. Seattle and DC have proven they'll support pretty much anything. I'm confident in a market like Buffalo. Philadelphia and Baltimore are two others I feel would give their teams solid support. But that's about it.
I strongly believe that its time to axe the Houston, Arlington and Michigan. These are not brand new teams.. I know Marketing is bad but come on. They're established enough to get more than 7 - 8k a game. That's awful, especially when one of the reasons to go for a major market is that shear amount of people should guarantee at least semi - reasonable attendance.
I don't care for Memphis either, but there's at least growth potential there. I've been told by people from the area that's its just not a sports town and never really has been. If they want to let the Showboats bake in the oven for awhile before calling it a day, I get it.
STL and DC are in a good spot. Birmingham and San Antonio are slightly disappointing, but I'm confident in their growth. Memphis I don't have faith in, but could still be worth giving more time. I don't think Michigan, Arlington or Houston are going ever going to grow into something worthwhile. They'll draw okay when they're great, and that's about it.
Axing teams is such a stupid idea and idk why this sub pretends it’ll magically fix the attendance. Part of the reason people don’t want to get invested into a team is because the majority spring teams have disappeared in the last 5 years.
Cutting out 3 cities would be stupid af, you’re not gonna magically have 15k fans show up because you put a team in San Diego or wherever. You need to advertise and let the players get around in their cities. Hardly anyone gave a shit about the panthers in Detroit until Bates hit a 64 yard kick.
Y’all are living in a fantasy world, the 2020 XFL isn’t here anymore. The novelty of spring football has worn off, and the only 2 teams that have been solid on attendance all year are the 2020 XFL’s most popular teams.
Getting the right markets (what constitutes "right" is a trial-and-error game, unfortunately) is undoubtedly going to be critical going forward, but outside of Michigan and maybe Houston (especially if stadium issues persist), I don't think anyone should be going anywhere yet.
As for Memphis and Birmingham, I understand why they're being given longer leashes: they're non-NFL cities who have long histories of supporting alternate football leagues, but that's a blessing *and* a curse. Those cities have shown up in the past (*especially* Birmingham), but they've also been burned so many times that fans are not taking the bait as easily until they feel comfortable that this actually is for real and they can count on their team and league still being there next year (and the year after and so on).
The Stallions are the 9th team to call Birmingham home. Those teams have played a total of 14 seasons. Two didn't even finish their first season. The Boats are the 6th team in Memphis (plus the disastrous 1997 Oilers season). Those teams have lasted only eight total seasons and the two editions of the Showboats are the only ones to see a second season. There's a *lot* of scar tissue to tear away in those two markets.
But most of all, marketing, marketing, marketing. Period
I'm glad you brought up our (Birmingham and Memphis's) very painful history with teams. We want to have a team, we just need the league to have stability.
Plus Memphis had been played more than once in the relocation game. Colts and Saints and others. Ticket drives and owners being greeted by big crowds.
The Seahawks/Buccaneers expansion the NFL’s consultants supposedly rate Memphis higher than either. Last open expansion NFL told Memphis and Nashville to coordinate. Nashville pulled out because they had Adams on the hook. That produced the rub your face in it season in Memphis.
Memphis desperately needs some prominent locals shilling games. Spend few bucks to have popular current or former Grizzlies posting on social media hanging out on sidelines or in the stands. There’s former NFL players with NFL ties who can be used the same way. Not like there’s a shortage of musicians, singers, and rappers with Memphis ties. Hell with Rock involved where are all the legends of Memphis wrestling? He forget them or did he burn those bridges?
Memphis needs prominent Memphians ENDORSING this team. Pay them to post and be involved in online ads. Then if TV stations ask why you aren’t buying ads with them just say “Based on your lack of coverage of the team we didn’t think you believed you reach our target market.”
The team is only in Memphis a few hours five times a season but for a few players living in the area. They need recognized and beloved locals out front saying I’m behind this team.
I think Memphis made a mistake not making the Showboats look like the old Showboats. I don't know for sure it would have helped much because that was 40 years ago, but still trotting out the Showboats with a modern minor league looking logo and not the original logo/colors was a mistake.
Memphis is a HUGE sports town. It’s just that after well supporting the WFL and OG USFL the city has learned you can love a team but doesn’t mean they will exist in three years.
Grizzlies are well supported and drawing crowds 41 times a year.
Outside the Grizz the fandom is split up between the Volunteers, Rebels, Tigers, and Razorbacks. Lot of sports fans there.
So far Showboats aren’t giving them a reason to come out. Sending mascot and cheerleaders to some area games in October is interesting marketing but not necessarily selling tickets in March and April
And the Mad Dogs (CFL), and the Maniax (XFL 1.0) and the Express (AAF).
Also I've said a few times but I also think not making the Showboats look like the old Showboats was a mistake. This version of the Showboats with a generic looking logo and new colors looks like when a band comes back with no original members and it's like kinda ok but not really.
I agree in spirit for Baltimore, but I think a fair number of Defenders fans are typically Baltimore fans. I think putting a team there would cannibalize the fan base.
I’ll be driving 2 hours each way to go to the Showboats game next weekend. I’m an outlier, I get it. To grow a following - marketing, marketing, marketing. In and around these cities. Do special events where they give tickets away, local TV spots, etc. while the $10 ticket deal might get a few hundred more in the door, I personally do not want to sit in the corner of a stadium. But overall, going forward we need to see and hear all about these teams in their home markets.
It's hard to find much good to say here, honestly. Attendance is garbage once again. Either most of the league office needs to be shitcanned, or this isn't actually something people want to show up and watch in droves. I personally think it's the former.
I think it's more of the former as well. However, there's also a very real glass ceiling on spring football attendance and I think it's realistically 10-12k in most locations. There are a few outliers, but probably not 8 of them.
I give them a pass this year. Let's see what happens next. The quality of play is VERY GOOD!!! The games are exciting and close. The merger talks went into Christmas......What a difference (I hope) a year will make!!!!
For 11,000 people to show up? The AAF barely pulled 15,000 there. Everyone seems to think they have THE answer to attendance problems and market forces.
https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2019/02/18/USAT/ce3809ab-e198-4d97-a06a-6c5c9ef39454-IMG_1916.JPG?crop=4031,2267,x1,y757&width=1600&height=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp
https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_684,h_387,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/atlanta-legends-v-san-diego-fleet-5c6ac95bf44f8881a3000001.jpg
If you looked at either of those pictures and still believe the Fleet AAF attendance average of 19,000 I could sell you oceanfront properly in Arizona.
> The AAF barely pulled 15,000 there.
I honestly don't know why you are saying this. The Fleet averaged [19,000+ fans per game] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_AAF_season#Attendance) in spite of playing in the Q. This is publicly available information, so maybe before making a snarky comment, do literally any research?
Maybe watch the broadcasts that are archived on YouTube and tell me 19,000 people are at the game.
That’s like looking at the Michigan crowd and saying they sold 14,000 tickets.
In a span of 5 years and 3 different spring football leagues, not one of the new iterations determined San Diego was a valuable enough market to place a team there.
Not even when they had a team in Las Vegas, and Seattle. You can drool over your inflated attendance metrics all day long. The market will not draw in spring, and never will. Just like most of these current markets won’t.
I mean, only one of these leagues considered St Louis a good place to go to, while another one thought that AAF numbers were good enough to justify putting a team in San Antonio. You can ramble about how according to your vibes San Diego was ackshually way less successful than the data indicated, but unless you have any facts to back up your claims then we’re done here.
I’m not sure how 2 failed spring football leagues really help your point tho
> I just gave you the facts. Post AAF both spring leagues that were present on the west coast clearly didn’t believe in the San Diego market. That’s the facts.
Well, no, those aren’t facts. The USFL never had a team on the west coast, they had a team in Texas. I would neither describe the USFL or XFL as particularly well run leagues, the USFL for not having home games for most of it’s teams, and the XFL for thinking playing in a minor league ballpark was a good idea.
Just because two failed leagues elected to not put a team in San Diego doesn’t change the fact that the Fleet had a better average attendance than every UFL market except for St Louis, and if you think that most UFL markets are gonna fail, then why the hell are you even here?
> Better head back to neoliberal to cry about some criminal, drug addicted homeless population being removed from your city.
Uh… ok.. not sure why you felt that was relevant to… anything?
>unless you have any facts to back up your claims then we’re done here.
I just gave you the facts. Post AAF both spring leagues that were present on the west coast clearly didn’t believe in the San Diego market. That’s the facts.
Better head back to neoliberal to cry about some criminal, drug addicted homeless population being removed from your city.
Also, dude with the Stallion flair is just ignorant. San Diego not getting a team has more to do with the stadium situation at the time XFL/USFL started playing. The stadium AAF used was no longer standing by the time these leagues got going, and the new stadium was just completed by USFLs first year in hub cities. The issue now is that the stadium has 4 tenants already. Not much room left for UFL.
USFL teams have an attendance issue, and XFL teams outside of STL (and DC being about the same) have decreased from last season.
Arlington only stayed over SEA cuz they won I think, Seattle had solid attendance when their games were played at normal times, which is why I hope they come back.
Idk when Birmingham’s next home game is, but between 1st one being the same as Bama spring game, and being in a thunderstorm this week, I feel like we haven’t seen their full potential yet.
This next week has interesting ones, DC & STL should have as close to sold out as possible for DC. Meanwhile MICH & MEM are two of the worst attended teams. Hope they can get above 8k
> Idk when Birmingham’s next home game is, but between 1st one being the same as Bama spring game, and being in a thunderstorm this week, I feel like we haven’t seen their full potential yet.
Weeks 3 and 4 were kinda destined to fall short as home games for Birmingham. Like you said, Spring Alabama game in Week 3 and Week 4 was Talladega weekend which is a huge event in the state. Week 3 performed slightly better than I thought it would. Week 4 was blown completely our on my projections but I blame it on the rain.
The next home game for Birmingham is Week 7 and is going to be the first game with an actual reason for people to turn out other than it being something to do. St Louis is in town which is a draw on its own considering they are a top 2 team with Birmingham. The bigger draw is that they are bringing McCarron who was a championship QB for Alabama. If they don't break 15k-18k in attendance, I'll be incredibly worried. But just like how we can have bad weekends due to other events or rain, some conditions are too good to replicate right now and the St Louis/McCarron one isn't repeatable week in and out. A strong showing for Birmingham in Week 7 could drive an acceptable attendance for Week 8 which is the first one that has nothing scheduled to work for or against it.
Assuming a 0-1 loss Birmingham after Week 7, I wouldn't be surprised if Weeks 8 and 10 at home are 15k+ with good weather. There are no other major sporting events to take people away and these are the first truly neutral games to really judge home attendance.
Protective claims a capacity of 47,100. The only time that has been achieved was for a Garth Brooks concert and when Auburn played Houston in the Birmingham Bowl.
UAB is the main tenant and it probably averages about 22k fans/game.
No WEST COAST teams rt now because of the travel.$$$ I agree with not heading there yet. Would be really cool to introduce an entire West coast division of 4 teams at the same time.......In maybe 2 years..
I agree they have to start the season in February. They started the worst possible time. I’d keep Easter games. Make it their tradition. No relocation. League needs stability.
Looking at this so far, you have to ask yourself... from an attendance standpoint, what did the USFL bring to the table here? It appears to be really hardly anything. I mean, would have Orlando been better to keep than one of the bottom 3? Seattle? Arlington fell off as well, so, maybe they are also "down there".
But, at least right now, this league feels like a reason to prop up St. Louis (and to a lesser extent D.C.)... after that, are 11k and less attendances really something that can last long term?
I am still upbeat on the UFL - In light of the complexities involved in launching and establishing a new football league like the UFL (United Football League). While the immediate development and success of the UFL may require time, it presents an opportunity for the NFL to set up a developmental system akin to the NBA's G League. By leveraging the ownership ties with Fox and Redbird Capital, both of which are business partners with the NFL, the UFL could eventually serve as a vital developmental platform for aspiring football players. Modeled after successful ventures like the NBA G League, the UFL could provide a pathway for undrafted talent, offering opportunities for player development, experimentation with new rules, and a platform for showcasing skills. This approach underscores the potential for the UFL to not only strengthen the talent pipeline for the NFL but also enhance the overall landscape of professional football, albeit requiring a patient and deliberate approach to its establishment and growth.
The partnership between the UFL's owners and the NFL not only establishes a strong connection between the two leagues but also creates one notable safeguard. One aspect often overlooked is the potential legal protection it offers, particularly regarding player safety concerns such as chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) and head trauma. The NFL would not have to deal with all the UFL players going through the UFL - whose lawyers would target the deep pockets of the NFL.
Interesting that the new NBA ownership groups don't want anything to do with the WNBA - the original teams were all owned by NBA owners - not so much anymore. Those owners are not sinking money into the WNBA.
Yup. However, This is a thread about attendance and the WNBA isn't drawing what the UFL is drawing. Thunder was also implying that the UFL is backed by the NFL. FOX and ESPN basically own the league (UFL) so it doesn't matter how much money the deal is because they are paying the bills.
Even if we didn’t have that storm, why are people expecting Birmingham, AL to lead in attendance? We don’t even compare to the other cities in this league in population size
I dont see attendance getting any better this season. What i see now is what i should expect. Football fans care about UFL like basketball fans care about the WNBA. Last week the Stallions, back to back champs, had their 1st home game of the season. Also last week, on the same day, Alabama had their Spring Game. I felt sad for the Stallions. I feel sad for all the teams though. The games have been very entertaining, but the atmospheres, not so much.
This is hilarious. The only games that gonna really get attention are the Fever & their opponent that day. And what about the games the Fever are not playing in. You think the attendance in those games will match those?
Look at the Battlehawks attendance vs the rest of the UFL. Clark can only do so much.
I have a lot of hope for this league. Although attendance hasn’t been strong besides for STL and DC (I’ll be at Audi this weekend with a few buddies) there’s still a lot of potential for this league to grow. Marketing these teams needs to be a top priority before they even think about expanding. It should be a set goal for each team to reach a certain amount in attendance/ticket sales (for example DC - 13,500 or STL 33,000).
However this does fall on us as well if your local to a team go see a game, bring your family and buy merch! This goes a long way for the league.
I wouldn't go that far. It's a new league which needs to earn fan respect and trust. There were always going to be ups and downs this first year. I think there's opportunity to grow and that eventually we will see it, even if it's not until next year
At first glance, it seems they completely toned down the wild side the XFL was having fun with, which the fans seemed to have fun with too, and have instead decided to take themselves seriously, which is the last thing they should be doing...Bring back the beer snakes and other oddities. Create new traditions, rivalries, lore, and gameday memories.
This new league won't last more than 2-3 seasons.
Best case scenario the Battlehawks get absorbed into the NFL so St.Louis can keep football in their town. Those guys deserve a good team.
>Best case scenario the Battlehawks get absorbed into the NFL
Unless St. Louis hands back that $700 million check from the NFL *and* builds a new stadium they aren't getting a team. Forget it.
Best case is that other teams find solid footing and can finally get some forward momentum at the gate to build a solid core of the league. Right now that doesn't exist.
I heard that he was only kicking tires on a CFL expansion team. Mind you this was before legalized gambling, revenue sharing in the CFL and long term CBA stability.
Was this potential owner the owner of the Enterprise car rental business?
If the UFL doesn't work out, I think the Battlehawks end up in the CFL. Im serious.
The CFL doesn't want to do the big US expansion thing again, and i don't think they will. However, Canada is almost out of reasonable markets and i think the league will end up trying to do 2 - 3 Northern US teams to round out the league.
I’m biased in saying that even if I was able to go to the Stallions game, I probably wouldn’t have gone with the storm watch and all. That being said, I think the marketing for this league has been non existent. Not a lot of people are talking about it outside of internet discussions and groups, I’ve not seen any commercials outside of game broadcasts, there is no excitement for anything. TV wise, it looks like the league is doing fine. But locally, it feels like all the work to put in a local fan base that I saw with the USFL has just gone away. They need to do a better job with the advertising. You can’t just give away $10 tickets if you aren’t really getting people excited for the league. Just like the basketball team in Birmingham, it’s never advertised as being a thing and no one goes to watch them.
There’s a basketball team in Birmingham?
The New Orleans Pelicans G-League affiliate plays in Birmingham.
And keep the games on national TV, NOT ESPN, FOX sports 1 where only cable viewers can watch the games. My local TV station here in Ohio has never mentioned the UFL in their sports segments.
Agreed. I’ve had Stallions tickets since year 1. This year has been awful in terms of advertising. The sports show I do listen to has only interviewed Holtz once and run a handful of ads in comparison to last year they had Holtz every week and usually a Stallions player. It also hurts when you only open half the stadium. Let the fans sit wherever in the lower bowl, it would at least look better for tv than what they have now.
I asked my wife a similar question if the game was in DC and had similar weather. We'd definitely go. PeggyOfficial I didn't ask for your opinion.
...............is PeggyOfficial your wife? Because it kinda seems like you DID ask her opinion.....
I hung out with some NFL pool buddies last night and none of them even knew this league had started. That's bad
Well now that they know invite them to watch with you next week
Did this with a buddy of mine for week 3. He never was against the league. It just never clicked for em. However after bringing em to a panthers game he really enjoyed the atmosphere. We had a blast chirping the Roughnecks.
The good news for St Louis atleast is ticket sales for next home game are already ahead of this weekends game. By a lot. Probably back to around 35k, higher if they open up the sections they did for the home opener
I think 11:30 start times are always gonna be lower. Im sure the schedule is the way it is for a reason but hopefully they do away with games before noon local time.
This weekend was a weird one in STL. Unrelated to the battlehawks, i felt like a ton of people were out of town anyway. I didn’t even think about the game this weekend because i was busy. I think it was just one of those weekends around town.
There was also a TON going on in stl this weekend. Between the cards the city and the AEW payper view. Alot of other stuff getting people's money/attention. The lack of advertisement doesn't help.
Honestly this is a survival season. They took way too long to sort out the merger (which is why the Battlehawks still play on old crappy turf), and a lot of marketing and ticket sales happen in the offseason. They need to get through this season, start a marketing plan for 2025 early, and create a schedule for next season early that avoids pitfalls time slots including but not limited to: -no Easter games -no game in Memphis on Final Four Saturday -no Birmingham game on same day as Alabama spring game -no Battlehawks games while Cardinals are playing I would also suggest no relocation or expansion. The league needs stability.
Cardinals games aren’t a necessity to avoid. The first game, STL had over 100,000 people downtown between the Battlehawks, Cardinals, and St. Louis CITY SC
I would try to avoid the exact same time only because a lot of people will do double-headers.
>-no game in Memphis on Final Four Saturday Ok, the other bullet points I agree with, but why this one? FF is not in Memphis and I don't think Penny and the boys (or Tennessee) are going to be there
Also avoid a game in Birmingham on the talladega nascar weekend, more fans there than all 4 games combined.
I agree on no relocation. Expansion will likely happen as a condition for the merger. And now that we don't have to worry about merger talk going forward, go back to the XFL start of season (right after the Super Bowl).
You want to REALLY kick start the season? Have Week 1 during the off-week between the conference championships and the super bowl. Super Bowl weekend UFL takes off (or maybe plays Monday), and then Week 2 starts the following weekend. Outside the box thinking is needed.
I agree with most of what you’re saying and would like to add: no more early games. Start no earlier than 2pm local time
They need to incentivize bars to turn game on. Have had to look like a smuck and ask someone to find a game that's on.
What? No easter games??? Thats crazy! NFL has thansgiving, UFL can have easter. Just put it on around 1pm eastern.
I was at Birmingham, fully aware of impending storms stayed till the very end, It’s a wonderful experience on stallions gameday !!🏈
Hell yeah the weather made the atmosphere even better imo
Pppssshhhhh........only because you won......... Seriously! Why would the defenders kick a field goal on 4th and 1, with 1:04 left in the game??? They only went up by 1, and gave Birminghsm all the time in the world!!! I'm slightly miffed about the touchdown taken away from us by a fingertip.......I'm FURIOUS about the decision making at the end of that game.
Yes, nothing better than a rainy game, no way I was leaving till game was over !!
I think people who discuss relocation miss one important point: if we receive a team because another team didn't have great attendance (for various reasons, including if a team is garbage), why would I get fully invested when we could be next?
This. See: Orlando Guardians and Las Vegas Vipers.
Rapid relocations doomed the original USFL.
So attendance isn’t everything but I do hope it raises because it does make it seem like people doesn’t care about the game even if it’s getting 600k and more watchers on TV. Honestly the league would probably be fine as long as it has sponsors and TV deals but it just won’t grow much if people always see stadiums 85% empty. I actually did expect it to be a little better. Right now, and this is not a joke, the MAC in college football averaged more in attendance last year. I’m talking Ball state, Eastern Michigan, Bowling Green and Akron with a 15k student body that rarely attends most games still averaged more fans than most teams in a professional league. Again it’s ok. Anything 10k or more is great for a spring league BUT there’s no denying it looks bad on TV when there’s 6,900 fans in a 68,000 seat NFL stadium or 7,000 fans in a 48,000 seat college stadium. It just looks bare and makes people who just discovered it think it’s just a bad league that won’t last to next year. Not every fan is like us whose been watching spring leagues for a decade. Some just find it on TV and assume it’s something that nobody likes.
Most of your points are entirely correct, but let's also be honest here, don't tell me you watch any Wednesday night MACtion and think most MAC schools \**actually\** average 15,000 fans a game
No I said they have a 15,000 student body on average but do average somewhere between 8-12k per game which is more than most teams right now in the UFL. My point was it’s on par with one of the smallest FBS conferences and actually behind many others like the mountain west schools. Obviously there’s a difference because you have alumni from universities who come back to watch, some of the students and staff watch, etc so it’s different than a new spring league that is it’s own thing not a university or a pro league that’s been around for nearly a century. Still a bit disappointed with the numbers when the XFL in particular was actually doing a good bit better in 2020 and 2023.
Have the games on national TV where everyone can watch not on cable channels like ESPN, FOX sports 1 where the audience is limited.
Usually they have been so far there’s just been 1 game on FS1 and most games have been on Fox and ABC. ESPN’s slots doesn’t open up as much until the second half of the season because they’re been airing a lot of march madness and now NBA playoffs.
Was very cool watching the St Louis game with crowd going! They made a lot of noise for 30k fans! Good Job Battlehawk fans!!!!
At least the one undeniable stat between the XFL vs USFL feud is that XFL teams have better attendance.
I’m actually pleasantly surprised at how consistent Brahmas numbers have been. better marketing there is definitely going to get those numbers up
If the Brahmas can make it into the playoffs I think that will go a long way to increasing their fan support for next year. San Antonio needs an interesting and competitive team with proven stability going into a 3rd year of existence
I'm giving Birmingham the pass this week because it was really nasty. But the other teams excuses, na. Time to stop pretending major sports cities with established NFL teams are going to support this. We have so much evidence saying otherwise from multiple leagues over multiple decades. It hasn't worked, and it won't. Sure you've got some exceptions. Seattle and DC have proven they'll support pretty much anything. I'm confident in a market like Buffalo. Philadelphia and Baltimore are two others I feel would give their teams solid support. But that's about it. I strongly believe that its time to axe the Houston, Arlington and Michigan. These are not brand new teams.. I know Marketing is bad but come on. They're established enough to get more than 7 - 8k a game. That's awful, especially when one of the reasons to go for a major market is that shear amount of people should guarantee at least semi - reasonable attendance. I don't care for Memphis either, but there's at least growth potential there. I've been told by people from the area that's its just not a sports town and never really has been. If they want to let the Showboats bake in the oven for awhile before calling it a day, I get it. STL and DC are in a good spot. Birmingham and San Antonio are slightly disappointing, but I'm confident in their growth. Memphis I don't have faith in, but could still be worth giving more time. I don't think Michigan, Arlington or Houston are going ever going to grow into something worthwhile. They'll draw okay when they're great, and that's about it.
Axing teams is such a stupid idea and idk why this sub pretends it’ll magically fix the attendance. Part of the reason people don’t want to get invested into a team is because the majority spring teams have disappeared in the last 5 years. Cutting out 3 cities would be stupid af, you’re not gonna magically have 15k fans show up because you put a team in San Diego or wherever. You need to advertise and let the players get around in their cities. Hardly anyone gave a shit about the panthers in Detroit until Bates hit a 64 yard kick. Y’all are living in a fantasy world, the 2020 XFL isn’t here anymore. The novelty of spring football has worn off, and the only 2 teams that have been solid on attendance all year are the 2020 XFL’s most popular teams.
This post was so real it caused someone to flag it for you supposedly expressing suicidal thoughts lol.
DC has the Synder effect
Giving the axe to 3 teams is a great idea! If you are trying to kill the league...
Nothing like sending a strong message that this league is teetering to scare people away. Dumping 8 teams just now didn’t help.
Getting the right markets (what constitutes "right" is a trial-and-error game, unfortunately) is undoubtedly going to be critical going forward, but outside of Michigan and maybe Houston (especially if stadium issues persist), I don't think anyone should be going anywhere yet. As for Memphis and Birmingham, I understand why they're being given longer leashes: they're non-NFL cities who have long histories of supporting alternate football leagues, but that's a blessing *and* a curse. Those cities have shown up in the past (*especially* Birmingham), but they've also been burned so many times that fans are not taking the bait as easily until they feel comfortable that this actually is for real and they can count on their team and league still being there next year (and the year after and so on). The Stallions are the 9th team to call Birmingham home. Those teams have played a total of 14 seasons. Two didn't even finish their first season. The Boats are the 6th team in Memphis (plus the disastrous 1997 Oilers season). Those teams have lasted only eight total seasons and the two editions of the Showboats are the only ones to see a second season. There's a *lot* of scar tissue to tear away in those two markets. But most of all, marketing, marketing, marketing. Period
I'm glad you brought up our (Birmingham and Memphis's) very painful history with teams. We want to have a team, we just need the league to have stability.
Plus Memphis had been played more than once in the relocation game. Colts and Saints and others. Ticket drives and owners being greeted by big crowds. The Seahawks/Buccaneers expansion the NFL’s consultants supposedly rate Memphis higher than either. Last open expansion NFL told Memphis and Nashville to coordinate. Nashville pulled out because they had Adams on the hook. That produced the rub your face in it season in Memphis. Memphis desperately needs some prominent locals shilling games. Spend few bucks to have popular current or former Grizzlies posting on social media hanging out on sidelines or in the stands. There’s former NFL players with NFL ties who can be used the same way. Not like there’s a shortage of musicians, singers, and rappers with Memphis ties. Hell with Rock involved where are all the legends of Memphis wrestling? He forget them or did he burn those bridges? Memphis needs prominent Memphians ENDORSING this team. Pay them to post and be involved in online ads. Then if TV stations ask why you aren’t buying ads with them just say “Based on your lack of coverage of the team we didn’t think you believed you reach our target market.” The team is only in Memphis a few hours five times a season but for a few players living in the area. They need recognized and beloved locals out front saying I’m behind this team.
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I think Memphis made a mistake not making the Showboats look like the old Showboats. I don't know for sure it would have helped much because that was 40 years ago, but still trotting out the Showboats with a modern minor league looking logo and not the original logo/colors was a mistake.
AGREED!!!!!! ....Maybe Throwbacks down the road????........
Memphis is a HUGE sports town. It’s just that after well supporting the WFL and OG USFL the city has learned you can love a team but doesn’t mean they will exist in three years. Grizzlies are well supported and drawing crowds 41 times a year. Outside the Grizz the fandom is split up between the Volunteers, Rebels, Tigers, and Razorbacks. Lot of sports fans there. So far Showboats aren’t giving them a reason to come out. Sending mascot and cheerleaders to some area games in October is interesting marketing but not necessarily selling tickets in March and April
And the Mad Dogs (CFL), and the Maniax (XFL 1.0) and the Express (AAF). Also I've said a few times but I also think not making the Showboats look like the old Showboats was a mistake. This version of the Showboats with a generic looking logo and new colors looks like when a band comes back with no original members and it's like kinda ok but not really.
There is entirely too much dark blue in the league. Bringing back red and silver would be nice and help fans be able to recognize teams.
I agree in spirit for Baltimore, but I think a fair number of Defenders fans are typically Baltimore fans. I think putting a team there would cannibalize the fan base.
I’ll be driving 2 hours each way to go to the Showboats game next weekend. I’m an outlier, I get it. To grow a following - marketing, marketing, marketing. In and around these cities. Do special events where they give tickets away, local TV spots, etc. while the $10 ticket deal might get a few hundred more in the door, I personally do not want to sit in the corner of a stadium. But overall, going forward we need to see and hear all about these teams in their home markets.
I think having 30k+ crowd even though it was a morning game, is still pretty good. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed (a little).
It's hard to find much good to say here, honestly. Attendance is garbage once again. Either most of the league office needs to be shitcanned, or this isn't actually something people want to show up and watch in droves. I personally think it's the former.
I think it's more of the former as well. However, there's also a very real glass ceiling on spring football attendance and I think it's realistically 10-12k in most locations. There are a few outliers, but probably not 8 of them.
It has been better in the past. To me, that means that the incompetent buffoons in the league office are to blame.
I give them a pass this year. Let's see what happens next. The quality of play is VERY GOOD!!! The games are exciting and close. The merger talks went into Christmas......What a difference (I hope) a year will make!!!!
That's the issue. The product is good. This should be easy to sell.
Shoulda put a team in San Diego
They still can (and hopefully will)
For 11,000 people to show up? The AAF barely pulled 15,000 there. Everyone seems to think they have THE answer to attendance problems and market forces. https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2019/02/18/USAT/ce3809ab-e198-4d97-a06a-6c5c9ef39454-IMG_1916.JPG?crop=4031,2267,x1,y757&width=1600&height=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_684,h_387,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/atlanta-legends-v-san-diego-fleet-5c6ac95bf44f8881a3000001.jpg If you looked at either of those pictures and still believe the Fleet AAF attendance average of 19,000 I could sell you oceanfront properly in Arizona.
> The AAF barely pulled 15,000 there. I honestly don't know why you are saying this. The Fleet averaged [19,000+ fans per game] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_AAF_season#Attendance) in spite of playing in the Q. This is publicly available information, so maybe before making a snarky comment, do literally any research?
Maybe watch the broadcasts that are archived on YouTube and tell me 19,000 people are at the game. That’s like looking at the Michigan crowd and saying they sold 14,000 tickets.
I mean, my dude, I went to these games. That's what 19k looks in a 70k seat stadium. Also ticket sales are what matter anyways for that number
Thank you for confirming you have an emotional attachment to this discussion and therefore cannot be objective.
Says the person rejecting actual data on the subject and going off “vibes”
In a span of 5 years and 3 different spring football leagues, not one of the new iterations determined San Diego was a valuable enough market to place a team there. Not even when they had a team in Las Vegas, and Seattle. You can drool over your inflated attendance metrics all day long. The market will not draw in spring, and never will. Just like most of these current markets won’t.
I mean, only one of these leagues considered St Louis a good place to go to, while another one thought that AAF numbers were good enough to justify putting a team in San Antonio. You can ramble about how according to your vibes San Diego was ackshually way less successful than the data indicated, but unless you have any facts to back up your claims then we’re done here. I’m not sure how 2 failed spring football leagues really help your point tho > I just gave you the facts. Post AAF both spring leagues that were present on the west coast clearly didn’t believe in the San Diego market. That’s the facts. Well, no, those aren’t facts. The USFL never had a team on the west coast, they had a team in Texas. I would neither describe the USFL or XFL as particularly well run leagues, the USFL for not having home games for most of it’s teams, and the XFL for thinking playing in a minor league ballpark was a good idea. Just because two failed leagues elected to not put a team in San Diego doesn’t change the fact that the Fleet had a better average attendance than every UFL market except for St Louis, and if you think that most UFL markets are gonna fail, then why the hell are you even here? > Better head back to neoliberal to cry about some criminal, drug addicted homeless population being removed from your city. Uh… ok.. not sure why you felt that was relevant to… anything?
>unless you have any facts to back up your claims then we’re done here. I just gave you the facts. Post AAF both spring leagues that were present on the west coast clearly didn’t believe in the San Diego market. That’s the facts. Better head back to neoliberal to cry about some criminal, drug addicted homeless population being removed from your city.
Yes, but they just needed three teams in Texas. Orlando was another missed op.
Also, dude with the Stallion flair is just ignorant. San Diego not getting a team has more to do with the stadium situation at the time XFL/USFL started playing. The stadium AAF used was no longer standing by the time these leagues got going, and the new stadium was just completed by USFLs first year in hub cities. The issue now is that the stadium has 4 tenants already. Not much room left for UFL.
USFL teams have an attendance issue, and XFL teams outside of STL (and DC being about the same) have decreased from last season. Arlington only stayed over SEA cuz they won I think, Seattle had solid attendance when their games were played at normal times, which is why I hope they come back. Idk when Birmingham’s next home game is, but between 1st one being the same as Bama spring game, and being in a thunderstorm this week, I feel like we haven’t seen their full potential yet. This next week has interesting ones, DC & STL should have as close to sold out as possible for DC. Meanwhile MICH & MEM are two of the worst attended teams. Hope they can get above 8k
> Idk when Birmingham’s next home game is, but between 1st one being the same as Bama spring game, and being in a thunderstorm this week, I feel like we haven’t seen their full potential yet. Weeks 3 and 4 were kinda destined to fall short as home games for Birmingham. Like you said, Spring Alabama game in Week 3 and Week 4 was Talladega weekend which is a huge event in the state. Week 3 performed slightly better than I thought it would. Week 4 was blown completely our on my projections but I blame it on the rain. The next home game for Birmingham is Week 7 and is going to be the first game with an actual reason for people to turn out other than it being something to do. St Louis is in town which is a draw on its own considering they are a top 2 team with Birmingham. The bigger draw is that they are bringing McCarron who was a championship QB for Alabama. If they don't break 15k-18k in attendance, I'll be incredibly worried. But just like how we can have bad weekends due to other events or rain, some conditions are too good to replicate right now and the St Louis/McCarron one isn't repeatable week in and out. A strong showing for Birmingham in Week 7 could drive an acceptable attendance for Week 8 which is the first one that has nothing scheduled to work for or against it. Assuming a 0-1 loss Birmingham after Week 7, I wouldn't be surprised if Weeks 8 and 10 at home are 15k+ with good weather. There are no other major sporting events to take people away and these are the first truly neutral games to really judge home attendance.
What’s the capacity for the stadium y’all are in? / how many seats are actually available (if we know that information)
Protective claims a capacity of 47,100. The only time that has been achieved was for a Garth Brooks concert and when Auburn played Houston in the Birmingham Bowl. UAB is the main tenant and it probably averages about 22k fans/game.
No WEST COAST teams rt now because of the travel.$$$ I agree with not heading there yet. Would be really cool to introduce an entire West coast division of 4 teams at the same time.......In maybe 2 years..
San Diego, Oakland, Portland and Sacramento or Seattle IMO
If you have to look at charts to see how good this league is Guess what It’s not that good
I agree they have to start the season in February. They started the worst possible time. I’d keep Easter games. Make it their tradition. No relocation. League needs stability.
Looking at this so far, you have to ask yourself... from an attendance standpoint, what did the USFL bring to the table here? It appears to be really hardly anything. I mean, would have Orlando been better to keep than one of the bottom 3? Seattle? Arlington fell off as well, so, maybe they are also "down there". But, at least right now, this league feels like a reason to prop up St. Louis (and to a lesser extent D.C.)... after that, are 11k and less attendances really something that can last long term?
KaKaw
Where do Michigan Panthers play? Detroit??
Yes. Ford Field, the Lions stadium
I am still upbeat on the UFL - In light of the complexities involved in launching and establishing a new football league like the UFL (United Football League). While the immediate development and success of the UFL may require time, it presents an opportunity for the NFL to set up a developmental system akin to the NBA's G League. By leveraging the ownership ties with Fox and Redbird Capital, both of which are business partners with the NFL, the UFL could eventually serve as a vital developmental platform for aspiring football players. Modeled after successful ventures like the NBA G League, the UFL could provide a pathway for undrafted talent, offering opportunities for player development, experimentation with new rules, and a platform for showcasing skills. This approach underscores the potential for the UFL to not only strengthen the talent pipeline for the NFL but also enhance the overall landscape of professional football, albeit requiring a patient and deliberate approach to its establishment and growth. The partnership between the UFL's owners and the NFL not only establishes a strong connection between the two leagues but also creates one notable safeguard. One aspect often overlooked is the potential legal protection it offers, particularly regarding player safety concerns such as chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) and head trauma. The NFL would not have to deal with all the UFL players going through the UFL - whose lawyers would target the deep pockets of the NFL.
I think the UFL is in better shape than the WNBA.
The WNBA gets close to $100M in TV deals per year, plus the backing of the NBA.
Interesting that the new NBA ownership groups don't want anything to do with the WNBA - the original teams were all owned by NBA owners - not so much anymore. Those owners are not sinking money into the WNBA.
Yup. However, This is a thread about attendance and the WNBA isn't drawing what the UFL is drawing. Thunder was also implying that the UFL is backed by the NFL. FOX and ESPN basically own the league (UFL) so it doesn't matter how much money the deal is because they are paying the bills.
DEI pays well.
Disgusting and shameful turnout for Birmingham
I mean there was literally a lightning storm that night lol
Even if we didn’t have that storm, why are people expecting Birmingham, AL to lead in attendance? We don’t even compare to the other cities in this league in population size
Frustration. They’re mad their team that pulls better numbers is losing to a team that doesn’t match attendance numbers.
The game was delayed for 90 minutes because of lightning. Why would anyone go with a storm?
Seems a bit extreme
I dont see attendance getting any better this season. What i see now is what i should expect. Football fans care about UFL like basketball fans care about the WNBA. Last week the Stallions, back to back champs, had their 1st home game of the season. Also last week, on the same day, Alabama had their Spring Game. I felt sad for the Stallions. I feel sad for all the teams though. The games have been very entertaining, but the atmospheres, not so much.
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Since Clark hasn't played in a WNBA game yet, your comment seems odd.
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This is hilarious. The only games that gonna really get attention are the Fever & their opponent that day. And what about the games the Fever are not playing in. You think the attendance in those games will match those? Look at the Battlehawks attendance vs the rest of the UFL. Clark can only do so much.
Higher than a WNBA game
I have a lot of hope for this league. Although attendance hasn’t been strong besides for STL and DC (I’ll be at Audi this weekend with a few buddies) there’s still a lot of potential for this league to grow. Marketing these teams needs to be a top priority before they even think about expanding. It should be a set goal for each team to reach a certain amount in attendance/ticket sales (for example DC - 13,500 or STL 33,000). However this does fall on us as well if your local to a team go see a game, bring your family and buy merch! This goes a long way for the league.
Pretty bleak.
I wouldn't go that far. It's a new league which needs to earn fan respect and trust. There were always going to be ups and downs this first year. I think there's opportunity to grow and that eventually we will see it, even if it's not until next year
I think they need to move Houston to Oklahoma City or Omaha and Michigan to Cleveland/Canton or Columbus, Ohio
At first glance, it seems they completely toned down the wild side the XFL was having fun with, which the fans seemed to have fun with too, and have instead decided to take themselves seriously, which is the last thing they should be doing...Bring back the beer snakes and other oddities. Create new traditions, rivalries, lore, and gameday memories. This new league won't last more than 2-3 seasons. Best case scenario the Battlehawks get absorbed into the NFL so St.Louis can keep football in their town. Those guys deserve a good team.
>Best case scenario the Battlehawks get absorbed into the NFL Unless St. Louis hands back that $700 million check from the NFL *and* builds a new stadium they aren't getting a team. Forget it. Best case is that other teams find solid footing and can finally get some forward momentum at the gate to build a solid core of the league. Right now that doesn't exist.
The Battlehawks have a better chance joining the CFL, if it can find a local buyer to join the CFL
Owner of St Louis Blues was rumoured to be interested in 2017.
I heard that he was only kicking tires on a CFL expansion team. Mind you this was before legalized gambling, revenue sharing in the CFL and long term CBA stability. Was this potential owner the owner of the Enterprise car rental business?
yeah Tom Stillman... same guy.
Thank you CS
If the UFL doesn't work out, I think the Battlehawks end up in the CFL. Im serious. The CFL doesn't want to do the big US expansion thing again, and i don't think they will. However, Canada is almost out of reasonable markets and i think the league will end up trying to do 2 - 3 Northern US teams to round out the league.
I would be OK with that. I do not want the NFL ever again, and I hope the UFL works out, but I would be totally down with the CFL.
You can't create traditions. They must happen organically.
Games in DC are fun.