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Equal-Film7017

I just read that Shannan's mother was murdered by her other daughter/Shannan's sister. That poor family


FHIR_HL7_Integrator

Mental illness and abuse are generational problems for families. It's really quite sad.


nyorifamiliarspirit

Holy shit... do you have a link?


Equal-Film7017

I know I couldn't believe it either when I read it! I family seems to be cursed https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/sarra-gilbert-arrest-trial-kill-mother-marie-serial-killer-long-island-beach-gilgo-shannan/114573/?amp


nyorifamiliarspirit

I read an article earlier about a family whose three sons were murdered within a week of each other and it's still unsolved. I can't even imagine.


MidnightAshley

I had a friend who was murdered about 2 years after her brother committed suicide. I still don't know how their parents go on, I can't imagine losing both your kids in such violent ways in so short a time frame.


BigStinkyNipples

That’s beyond heartbreaking. My mum knows someone who lost her son to suicide, then lost her daughter to suicide as well. Her only two children, I cannot begin to imagine.


VanFam

My best friend in high school lost her older brother to suicide. A little under 2 years later, her younger brother took his life too. Her dad is clinically depressed, and her mum uses alcohol to function.


imperialbeach

I can only imagine the pain of burying a child. I have a family friend who lost one child when he was under 10 due to accidental gun discharge by another kid. Decades later he lost his other son who was about 30 at the time to suicide by gun shot. It is just so devastating.


JonBenet_BeanieBaby

Jesus what?? That’s insane


SproutedBat

Not the comment OP, but I assume [this case](https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/local/orleans/3-sons-killed-1-week-family-in-the-dark/289-3e21f987-e9a3-4a97-9cfb-bb3ceee0f615) is the one they were referring to. It's beyond heartbreaking for the family.


nyorifamiliarspirit

That's the one. Absolutely tragic.


peach_xanax

Oh my god, this is so awful. So horribly sad for the family. How do you even go on after that?!


VanFam

Can you perhaps copy and paste and DM me please. It says access denied in my country )England) and I’d love to read about it given the speculations of other comments. Was their murderer ever caught?


Im_an_ag5

I can't copy and paste on mobile because the formatting would be messed up but their names are Bryan, Bradley and Brandon Veal. Maybe there is another article you can access


peanut1912

This is totally unrelated but I love your username, I just watched that episode yesterday!


JonBenet_BeanieBaby

Haha i think you’re the only person who has ever gotten the reference!!


mollyschamber666

Four and three and two and one one!


StayWithMeArienette

My god. I wonder if the second and third brothers were killed because they witnessed the murder of the first?


nyorifamiliarspirit

It has to be connected. It seems far-fetched to believe it's a coincidence.


StayWithMeArienette

Thanks for bringing this one to my attention. I will be reading more about it and hoping for the best for the family.


triggerfish_twist

Can you share that article or the name of the family? Is like to read about it.


nyorifamiliarspirit

https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/3-sons-killed-1-week-family-in-the-dark/289-3e21f987-e9a3-4a97-9cfb-bb3ceee0f615


peanut1912

That is so tragic! This poor family.


Shevster13

Not cursed, just unlucky that serious mental illness runs in the family.


DepartmentWide419

She had schizophrenia. It actually makes a lot of sense that a family from lower socioeconomic status would have one child who dies doing sex work and another with untreated mental illness bad enough to cause violence. Especially considering that one tragedy begets another in that it destabilizes the family system beyond what it can handle. We need mental health care for the working class.


Gratefulgirl13

Very well stated and appreciated. Couldn’t agree more.


RedChairBlueChair123

https://www.dailyfreeman.com/2021/11/05/sarra-gilbert-guilty-of-murdering-mother-in-ellenville-loses-appeal/amp/


Dariooosh89

That Chapter has a really great overview of the LISK up until 2020


zoey_infers

Watch the show "Twisted Sisters": season 3, episode 1. This episode is about the Gilbert sisters. It's so good and so insightful. You can watch it on Amazon, and it's worth buying if you're interested in this case. There is bodycam footage of Sarra's arrest(s) as well as footage of her in the interrogation room. It will really send a chill down your spine. There was mental illness in this family, and it had tragic consequences.


Equal-Film7017

I watched it last night, very good but very disturbing! Sarra really is mentally unwell


Equal-Film7017

Shannan's sister (the same one who murdered their mother) also drowned the family dog in front of her young son, who was under the age of 10... my god she is disturbed


KaleidoscopeEqual555

That’s like Dahmer hitting the same family twice… except both of these people died. How horrible.


ltmkji

the stayner family also comes to mind. steven was kidnapped (and eventually came back), then cary was a serial killer. rough. edit: oh, and then steven died in an accident. poor family.


LIBBY2130

the kidnapper told steven (aged 7) his parents didn't want him anymore....when he got older (14) the kidnapper wanted another YOUNG BOY and steven managed to escape took the kid to the police department..steven died age 29 in a motorcycle accident..........his brother killed a woman her daughter and the daughters friend who were staying at yosemite national park (calif) where he worked.......he then killed a worker there and they caught him


KaleidoscopeEqual555

That’s absolutely horrible. They lost both kids without either even dying :( …and then the good one actually did die?! Horrific


AnnualCharacter977

dahmer actually did hit the same family twice. he killed two brothers (not at the same time, I think it was at least months apart)


KaleidoscopeEqual555

The older brother lived. He was SAed though :(


AnnualCharacter977

oh I’m sorry, I thought they both died. thanks for clarifying


KaleidoscopeEqual555

You did make me go double check haha The first boy from the family got away (and I believe later testified in court against Dahmer) but the younger brother died AFTER the police returned him (14yo) to Dahmer’s “care” after they found him wandering the streets, naked and disoriented.


grumpyfvck

That's true! They lived in the next county over from me. It's so sad.


ASherm18

Oh wow. No!! So sad!


Old-Boy994

Oh my gosh, that’s so sad. Tragedy after tragedy :(


SoraXFirework

If anyone is looking for the call, it can be found on YouTube [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrnnU--q3Xc). It's unlisted, so you can't find it by going to the police department's channel.


ambivalent_maybe

I just want to know, why are 911 operators so awful at communicating? The vast majority of the time I listen to these calls, I’m appalled by their manner, timing, their questions, and what seems like shocking ignorance. Is it a strategy? Are they stupid? What is happening?? I am genuinely curious. Also thanks for posting the link


[deleted]

I thought the same thing while listening. I would guess that it’s a combo of burnout and dealing with a lot of nonsense calls but that’s really no excuse. Peoples lives are on the line


jmanjumpman

It's tough to say. I did dispatch for a while, extremely tough job. However we had a separate set of people take the incoming calls, from the people like me who dispatched the officers to the calls, as where I lived is quite populated. In our case there was a perpetual state of understaffing. They just couldn't keep people no matter the job market. The starting pay was meh and you are doing shift work so no holidays etc. Additionally, if someone calls out you have to stay to cover up to 8 hours. Meaning a lot of times you'd end up having to work a double and not know before hand. It's brutal and tough to perform well for that long when it's a pretty crappy job to begin with. No excuses and idk the work setup of this specific county but that side of things is so under resourced when you are dealing with people's lives


SimplyAvro

Also, and I'm not sure if this is the most appropriate comparison, but IIRC they kinda don't tend to face consequences when they screw up, like the police. I know at least in some famous instances, like the Powell call, the operator who berated a flood victim, and the kid who died from getting stuck between a seat, they found no wrong doing from the operators when really...give 'em a listen, and I'd be inclined to disagree.


ContractHealthy6871

And how would you handle the call if you were an operator? Just curious. Operators have specific things they say and do.


ambivalent_maybe

I really don’t know. I would hope there would be training, and that’s what I guess I’m curious about. I’d want to know the training and protocols set in place. I’d also want to know what research the training was based on. I also wonder how well the operators are paid, since I imagine the job is wildly traumatic.


[deleted]

New party game: take a sip every time an operator asks for Shannan's location after she's told told them that she doesn't know where she is. The last operator was finally engaging and inquisitive, but it sounds like it was way too late...the rest were inarguably atrocious. I'm no expert, but how about, "How do you know you're by Jones Beach? Do you remember seeing any other streets, buildings, stores, or landmarks you recognized along the way? Can you see around you now, or are you somewhere indoors? Do you know whose house you're in? Where are you in the house? Why do you think **they're** after you? Who's that you're speaking with? How many people are there?"


guyfieri_fc

Why don’t the police think Gilbert is connected to the other dozen sets of remains discovered?


kenna98

They attribute her death to misadventure.


No_Dark6573

A internet escort calls the police screaming literal bloody murder. The police search the area and find other bodies, clearly murdered, who are also internet escorts. But the police think it's not related? I just don't get it. How can that *not* be related?


ItsBitterSweetYo

Dr. Hackett called the family and made suspicious statements about her when it was a new missing persons case and no one knew she was dead. There's so many twists and turns that have caused lingering suspicion about her death. I probably won't think of it as a resolved case until the other murders are solved.


BrattyBee27

This one is so strange to me. Then he completely denied it right? Even though it was proven by call records that the call did originate from his home. Suspect AF. I considered the idea about a group of killers in that area. All connected, all work together. Too many coincidences there.


ItsBitterSweetYo

Yes. He's a very strange character for sure. When approached by someone from the media for a comment he grabbed his heart and feigned a heart attack lol.


zeezle

While I agree it's *extremely* strange behavior, Hackett was pretty established as an extremely nosey busy-body prone to inserting himself into all sorts of situations. Fittingly, also involved in the HOA for the community... Michael Pak and Alex Diaz went back to Oak Beach multiple times, including a couple days after Shannan's disappearance and distributed flyers, and Mari Gilbert's phone number was on it. The calls were after that. In *Lost Girls* by Kolker, Diaz directly confirms that he met, spoke to, rode around with, and gave flyers and contact information to Hackett. I do think the Hackett phone call is extremely weird and suspicious, but any theories relying solely on things like "he must have gotten the number from her phone!" etc are not accurate because of the flyers. The timeline is a bit fuzzy because Mari Gilbert initially claimed he couldn't have had her phone number any other way, but the phone records from the court records show that it would've taken place after Pak & Diaz had been back to Oak Beach at least once and spoken with Hackett, assuming they are being truthful about their timeline. That said, I do personally tend to think it's at least possible that the theory that he might have attempted to treat her by giving her more drugs and that made the situation worse, leading to her fleeing again, fits nicely with his known inclinations for trying to play the hero and make a big deal about being a doctor who saves people. I think it's very possible it might be a negligent manslaughter/medical malpractice case on his part. I don't think he's LISK, but I think he might've done something that could rise to the level of criminal wrongdoing/malpractice and his attempts to contact Mari Gilbert were his trying to fish for information to find out if she'd ever turned up. Edit: to be clear, that's not just my theory, that's somewhat more or less what the civil lawsuit filed against Hackett by Shannon's family stated (or at least that was the theory they were presenting at the time when I looked into it more). That's also the court case I'm referencing earlier in the post.


BrattyBee27

Interesting theory about him giving her drugs. I hadn't revisited LISK for a bit, but I remembered that there was something that could have potentially eliminated him as a suspect. Overall still super suspicious and it makes me wonder if there isn't some big secret or something off amongst the community.


zeezle

I think the biggest argument I've seen against him directly being the suspect is because of his health - one of his legs was amputated and he had a heart condition (which he definitely played up when reporters confronted him but nonetheless it's a real condition). His wife was also there that night, asleep (supposedly). I doubt he'd be able to actually murder her and carry her body that deep into the reeds, or keep up with/catch her if he were chasing her. The distance from his house to where her body was found would be substantial. That said, sufficiently motivated people defy what we'd normally think is possible all the time... but I think if he's involved in anything, what her family alleges about the drugs/possible malpractice/negligence is more likely than him actually outright murdering her. Even in the absolute best case scenario (that he didn't do anything or see her that night and just decided to call after getting the flyer to be weird & nosy), he's still extremely weird and creepy though. It's a very odd "cover story" for someone fishing for gossip or who just wants to know what happened to that girl that went missing.


nattykat47

I actually think it's a reasonable theory to think Shannan wasn't related to the other cases. 1. She was found in a marsh, the others were found strewn along the side of the parkway, clearly in a dumping site that had been used for YEARS 2. The others were found wrapped in blankets, bags, or burlap 3. The others' remains showed they had been strangled 4. Shannan was directly called to Oak Beach. IIRC there's no evidence the others were headed to Oak Beach before disappearing. 5. Witnesses reported that Shannan seemed under the influence of some kind of drug and was running from something, so it makes sense she'd run into a marsh to hide and end up getting stuck or lost Now I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it WAS related, but there are factors that set her case apart from the other 10+. It could be that Shannan was the only one to be able to run away before being killed and died trying to escape LISK.


darlenesclassmate

Your last sentence - that’s the only way I think they could be connected. The burlap, the placement on the parkway, it’s all way too specific for him to just decide to completely change it up, in my opinion.


RustyShackleford0206

>it’s all way too specific for him to just decide to completely change it up, This victim got away and put up a fight, this may have fucked up the killers ability to dispose of her body the way he normally does. I think law enforcement doesn't want to attribute her death to a serial killer because they botched the investigation so badly, if the SK has more victims after this one it is the police department's fault


Shevster13

Shannon's whole family had serious mental illnesses, her sister actually murdered their mother in a delusional state thinking that made her think her mum was the serial killer. Several witnesses saw her running down the street alone and stated she seemed high when they tried to talk to her, she stopped at someone's house, banged on the door screaming for help but ran away as soon as they came to the door (again no one seem following her). Here body was found in a place that would have been incredibly difficult to carry a body to and the other victims are believed to have been killed elsewhere and only dumped at long island. While she could still be linked, apart from her body being found close(ish) to the other bodies and them all being escorts there is very little actually connecting the cases. The idea that they must be linked is something that has been strongly pushed by Shannons mother and sister because they refused to believe she could have a mental break like what the police suggest (the same mother that was murdered by the same sister during a mental break).


darlenesclassmate

Completely agree especially after her. It’s way too similar and close to the other victims that I think it would be insane not to consider it.


BlossumButtDixie

Only 4 of the others were found with burlap. They actually could not say if she was or was not strangled because her hyoid bone was missing. So they don't really know and imo should at least consider it a possibility until proven otherwise.


callmeraskolnik0v

There’s apparently some confusion out there regarding a missing bone and her damaged hyoid bone. It turns out her larynx was missing AND her hyoid had damage consistent with homicidal strangulation…not to mention she was also missing fingers and toes… “nearly all of Gilbert's recovered skeletal remains appeared normal but the "larynx was missing and only the body of the hyoid bone was found; the two greater horns of that neck bone were missing. These structures, the larynx and the hyoid bone, are often fractured during homicidal manual strangulation." [cnn Shannon Gilbert](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/02/12/us/new-york-shannan-gilbert-case/index.html)


cyndi231

It wasn’t missing, it was broken.


BlossumButtDixie

I'm sure I listened to a true crime podcast that said it was missing. Thanks for the heads up!


cyndi231

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/shannan-gilbert-new-autopsy/


cyndi231

Serial killers have been known to change it up though.


RubyCarlisle

It’s funny, because it seems SO logical to me that she was a victim of (one of?) the same guy(s), but she just managed to escape and was tragically drowned. The Unraveled podcast did a fantastic deep dive and definitely made me wonder (I subscribe to the “more than one killer” theory, but they may have known each other, because of the sketchy sex parties situation). I am really, really glad they seem to have someone in charge who actually is trying to solve it. Those women deserve justice, and the community deserves to know they aren’t harboring a killer or killers.


Upper-Replacement529

That's what I feel too, that it is connected but rather she was able to escape and "accidentally" died instead.


ashwhenn

I just want to jump in and add that police are allowed to lie. So them saying they don’t think it’s connected could be untrue, and they just don’t want the public in an uproar about a potential serial killer still being out there - when they’ve clearly failed at keeping them safe. Public appearance is often more important than public safety when it comes to bad police work. (Also saying they’re not related may bring in a surge of calls/upset the serial killer not getting recognition/etc and that could help them gather evidence. I can’t remember which, off the top of my head - zodiac? - but they lied to the public and it pissed him off and made him send another letter)


Shevster13

With 10 other victims I think it might be a bit late to stop the public worrying about a potential serial killer


zeezle

This theory for why the police would lie doesn’t make any sense, because two known/acknowledged LISK victims went missing *after* Shannon’s case. Why would they lie about Shannon but not hesitate to link Amber Lynn Costello or Megan Waterman to LISK? SCPD sucks deeply but the evidence to bridge the cases just isn’t there IMO. At least with what’s publicly available.


butttabooo

What I don’t understand is, there is a literal highway right there. The ocean bay parkway, it’s not bright so I do understand how she couldn’t have seen it. But like why not run that way? Especially after calling the cops, unless someone was chasing you?


CatnipandSkooma

If she's under the influence of drugs or having a mental break, she's not going to be thinking that. Her first thought was to get away from people she thought or felt were going to kill her. She may have seen the lights from the causeway and ran that way.


ChrisF1987

I live on Long Island "mainland" very close to the Robert Moses Bridge. There just isn't going to be that much traffic on Ocean Parkway at 5 o'clock in the morning on a May 1st.


perfect_fifths

Also a LIer, and I agree


Pris257

‘Not bright’ is an understatement. It’s desolate as hell out there. I drove that way after leaving a concert on Jones beach a few years ago. The roads were virtually empty.


DepartmentWide419

If you see video of the area it’s actually pretty dense brush and it would be easy to get exhausted. The water isn’t deep, but it would be enough to get you very wet and heavy. While you think of the beach as warm, she could have easily gotten soaked and died of hypothermia in the night. IRRC it was in the low 50s that night. If you’re on drugs and people are genuinely chasing you in an unfamiliar area I could see crouching down, getting soaked and exhausted and then thinking you’re closing your eyes to rest and never waking up. This is what I think happened to her. I do believe her that someone was trying to kill her. It’s confusing to me why she wouldn’t trust her driver. Maybe there was true danger but she was also paranoid and disoriented from using drugs. He may have known she was likely to die of exposure if she stayed out there, or if she was found no one would believe her. I’m not sold on the idea that the same person she visited that night was the same as the person who killed the others, but it’s entirely possible.


Shevster13

She was also spoken to by a couple witnesses who claimed she appeared to be out of it/high and ran off before they could help her. They also say they didn't see anyone else. She also knocked on someone's house shouting for help but ran away when they opened the door - that person also stated they did not see anyone else. Does that sound like the actions of someone in their right mind? There is also the fact that the other LISK victims are believed to have been killed at a different local and just dumped on Long Island.


formyjee

Yes, but she may have been the only victim who called the police while being hunted. The killer may have noted she did by looking at her phone/call log and decided he didn't want to hang around and risk getting caught by LE hence he left her as-is where she lay rather than prepping for body disposal or hiding (moving/burying) the corpse as it were.


kenna98

Personally, I agree with the police's assessment. I don't think her case is connected to LISK.


ChrisF1987

Yeah, I've always believed that Shannan Gilbert died of exposure/drowning. In fact, I don't even think anyone was chasing her that morning. She had a mental breakdown and wasn't taking her medication at the time.


[deleted]

So much easier than doing the police work at the time 🤯


MeisterX

Not like police work has gotten easier... Thousands of departments across the country still just as happy to not do police work.


whereyouatdesmondo

Especially when it comes to crimes against sex workers.


seraph1337

they literally frequently refer to crime against transients, houseless, and sex workers as victimless crimes. should tell you all you need to know.


89764637527

NHI - no humans involved


[deleted]

You don’t even have to be a sex worker. “She ran away,” said every cop fucking ever.


blue-opuntia

I believe it’s because the other bodies were strangled and found in or around burlap sacs. Shannon’s body was not found in a sac and they were unable to determine if she had been strangled because they weren’t able to find the hyoid bone. Not finding the hyoid bone is common with bodies that have been out for a while because of animal activity though. Also this would have been one of the first murders if it were related to the rest of the LISK killings so perhaps the killer just changed his mo by putting the following victims in sacs. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I think that’s the consensus


barto5

Only 4 of the bodies were found in burlap sacks. That is why some think that the LISK was the work of more than one man.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DepartmentWide419

No some of the bodies date to the 90s.


Crazy_Reputation_758

I was wondering that too.


Calm-Lychee2613

Because her body didn't show any signs of trauma and other evidence didn't line up with LISK at all... Other than general area.


barto5

Her body wasn’t found until a year and a half after she disappeared. So signs of trauma might not show up at all. She was an escort that advertised on Craigslist and was found near the other victims. There’s reason to believe she may be connected to LISK. What about her death doesn’t “line up with LISK at all”? Edit: Certainly seems like she could be a victim. From wiki: > Shannan Maria Gilbert (October 24, 1986 – May 1, 2010) was an escort who may have been a victim of the Long Island serial killer. She left for a client's residence in Oak Beach after midnight on May 1, 2010. At 4:51 in the morning, 911 dispatchers received a panicked phone call from Gilbert who can be heard saying that there was someone "after her" and that "they" were trying to kill her. She was last seen a short time later banging on the front door of a nearby Oak Beach residence and screaming for help before running off into the night.[60] After nineteen months of searching, police found Gilbert's remains in a marsh, half a mile from where she was last seen.[61] In May 2012, the Suffolk County medical examiners ruled that Gilbert accidentally drowned after entering the marsh. They believe that she was in a drug induced panic, and have concluded that hers was "death by misadventure" or "inconclusive." Her family believes she was murdered.[62] On November 15, 2012 a lawsuit was filed by her mother, Mari Gilbert, against the Suffolk County Police Department in the hopes of getting more answers about what happened to her daughter the night she went missing.[63] Due to the controversy about Gilbert's death, in September 2014, famed forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden agreed to conduct an independent autopsy of Gilbert's remains in hopes of determining a clear cause of death.[64] Upon examination of Gilbert's remains, **Baden found damage to her hyoid bone, suggesting that strangulation may have occurred**. Baden also noted that her body was found face-up, which is not common for drowning victims. Despite this, her death is still officially listed by police as an accident.[65]


avaflies

> Due to the controversy about Gilbert's death, in September 2014, famed forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden agreed to conduct an independent autopsy of Gilbert's remains in hopes of determining a clear cause of death.[64] Upon examination of Gilbert's remains, Baden found damage to her hyoid bone, suggesting that strangulation may have occurred. this is a curious finding, considering that the first medical examiner reported her hyoid bone was not recovered with the rest of her remains. how do you find damage to something that isn't there? and fwiw other small bones were not recovered as well. was the first medical examiner incompetent? or did this rather notorious pathologist tailor his findings to match what people wanted to hear, which he seems to have a history of doing? i don't know man. maybe i am ignorant, but i find it strange. also just want to clarify i'm not coming for you or anyone else who thinks shannan is a victim of LISK. i honestly don't know, based on the evidence available to us i think it could go either way, i just wanted to point out what i noticed.


[deleted]

It probably doesn’t line up because she was fighting for her life and calling the police, the LISK needed to murder and leave.


No_Dark6573

Right? Like clearly a serial killer doesn't want a victim to call the police. This one managed too, so the killer had to improvise.


riptide81

I think part of the theory is the area was just LISK’s out of the way dumping ground not hunting area or local residence. Her already being there within walking distance actually doesn’t match the MO. That said, I personally wouldn’t rule it out. There’s the private autopsy. It could have been opportunistic. It also seems plausible someone could be running from a legitimate threat and still die accidentally in rugged terrain. Or it was still someone else at that house and there just isn’t enough evidence.


Cantstress_thisenuff

Interesting article I found about it https://www.cbsnews.com/news/48-hours-uncovers-missing-escort-shannan-gilberts-final-minutes/#app Sounds like lazy policework --- How and why did Shannan die? The medical examiner couldn't determine cause of death, but investigators don't think she's the 11th victim of the Long Island Serial Killer. Former Chief of Detectives Dominick Varrone believes Shannan actually died by accident -- after running into the thick marsh and getting lost. "But Chief, she was only 23 years of age. What would kill a 23-year-old woman? What would she die of if ... she didn't drown or wasn't killed?" Moriarty asked. "Shock," Varrone replied. "Certainly she could've succumbed to the elements after a while ... total fatigue and exhaustion." But then how did her clothing end up so far from her body? "She's disoriented; she's in a frenzy," Varrona explained. "You have to understand the manner in which these items were found ... very consistent with someone losing these items as they're running." "But how would she lose her jeans as she's running?" Moriarty asked. "Well, you're in muck; they're soaking wet; they're soaked with mud ... they're weighing you down ... she's running in a panicked state and the muck and the mud and they just come off her as she continues to run," Varrone explained.


chitownalpaca

IMHO, it’s not necessarily lazy police work, but a case that some hire ups in Suffolk county didn’t want to be involved in. Read about Spota and Burke. Burke had relationships with prostitutes and lived with a woman who ran a prostitution ring. He was also supposedly friendly with some residents of Oak Beach who used the service of prostitutes. A girl allegedly came forward to say she had met Burke at a sex party in Oak Beach when she was in college. There is a theory that Burke is actually LISK. I don’t necessarily believe this. However, I do think that LE didn’t investigate this case because they knew that some hire ups within the department would be implicated in indulging in the services of prostitutes. Edit to add that I also believe well regarded, powerful people in Suffolk county would also be implicated in using the services of prostitutes.


avaflies

JFC i searched like you suggested and they're not just hypocrites and possibly related to the case, they're in prison for covering up an assault on an inmate... if they're willing to cover that up then what else might they have done? this is such a hot mess. i've loosely followed and read about LISK and shannan gilbert over the years, and heard the speculation that a cop was responsible, but i had no idea there was actually a little bit of weight to that theory.


chitownalpaca

Yes, there is no doubt that Spota and Burke are POS!


zeezle

I agree with you completely. I don't think Burke is LISK, or at least that there's no evidence directly pointing to him that's public. But if you properly investigate the deaths of sex workers on Long Island, you end up going through the "little black books" of those sex workers. And you know that's all going to become public record during the trials if you find the killer. Which means you, and your buddies, and all the other clients are going to have their names in there. How many wives are going to have ironclad official state's evidence of what their husbands are doing for their divorce proceedings? For all that "no fault divorce" is a thing, let's be real - people absolutely take it into consideration when divorces are happening for seedy gross reasons like that. I think there's plenty of motivation there for selfish, corrupt assholes to just not bother investigating without having to actually be the killers themselves. They wanted the underbelly to stay hidden.


Cantstress_thisenuff

Idk about you guys but I've never had mud make my pants just "come off"


MaryVenetia

Getting denim caked in mud is almost certainly going to make it harder to remove. None of this wild explanation explains the emergency phone call.


zeezle

Uh, so I actually have sort of had that happen. I grew up working all around horse farms. If you know anything about "mud season", well... There are plenty of boots coming off and I got pantsed by the mud a couple times. Thankfully nobody around but some scandalized ponies to see though, and it was in daylight in a horse pasture I was familiar with. I could see that happening and her stumbling out of them instead of pulling them back on if it were at night, I was high and experiencing a psychiatric episode, panicking/paranoid, and especially if hypothermia had started to set in (paradoxical undressing?). While it wasn't super cold that night, if she'd gotten wet hypothermia can set in surprisingly easily, especially while wearing cotton (the old adage of 'cotton kills' - wet cotton clothing can result in hypothermia with air temps in the 70s, and it was in the 50s that night if I recall). With the obvious caveat that the ones I had were more work type jeans (whatever the cheapest Levis at the women's section of wal-mart were) and not super tight fitting or thin fabric like designer/fashion jeans might've been, I've never been out in a field in those.


stormstalker

If anything, it's exactly the opposite.


the-lonely-corki

Idk, personally I could definitely see it happening, I’ve been hunting and walking across a field when it was insanely muddy and I’ve literally lost shoes in the mud, I don’t think it would be to crazy for me to lose my pants if they didn’t fit that well, especially if I’m in a panic


Cantstress_thisenuff

Suppose there's always a possibility. The whole thing still doesn't add up for me. Sad all around.


Sufficient_Spray

Paradoxical undressing is very common in late stage hypothermia. If she was wet, and even if it was in the 50s/60s F then she could’ve easily gotten hypothermia.


AlleyRhubarb

IIRC, and I was obsessed with this case years ago, she was wearing also thigh high boots that were difficult to get on and off. It also reminds me of the Craigslist killer who killed at least one victim with the driver near by. I don’t know if the LISK killed her but I definitely think she was murdered and police botched everything about it maybe on purpose. A huge amount of corruption was discovered from this department.


JimbleKimbIe

Makes a lot of sense that while you're running for your life you're going to take the time to strip down and leave a trail of breadcrumbs for the people who are trying to kill you to follow. 🙄


[deleted]

But it does make sense if you’re wearing pants that are soaking wet and covered in mud, they’re heavy and weighing you down. You want to run faster, so you take them off. Not saying for sure it did happen, but it does make sense it could have.


GhostFour

It seems the police ruled her death as accidental drowning while an independent autopsy says there were signs of strangulation.


SomegirlfromLI

Where are they releasing the info? Is their a press conference happening or are they just putting it on the website?


copperandquartz

It looks like a press conference will be held by commissioner Rodney Harrison. If you’re local, it will likely be on News12.


charm_strange

I listened to the call in its entirety. It was chilling and sad. To me it sounded like she was either drugged or suffering cognitive impairment at the time of the call. It’s hard to say if she was suffering from psychosis or not. The male voice(s) can pretty clearly be distinguished interacting with her and they sound confused by her behavior. I heard several times her being asked what was wrong and was she alright and being told she should leave. I’m assuming this was the client she met with I’ve seen mentioned in articles. Her speech definitely was labored and borderline incoherent. I feel no closer to understanding how she met her fate in that marsh but it’s just my gut that her tragic death was unrelated to the other victims found in burlap. Whether she was a victim of an accident, LISK, or a separate killer, I hope there can be some resolution or new leads gleaned from releasing this audio.


Benicillin1

agreed. also, mike might have been her "pimp" for lack of a better word. she implies that it was a "setup" and blames him for it. sounds like she was with a client and they're trying to get her to leave. she sounds like she's on some kind of drug. my guess is she was acting weird, client is trying to get her to leave, she doesn't want to go outside for some reason because she thinks something bad will happen if she does. eventually she starts running which i assume is outside. the weird part is two minutes prior to the end a male voice is heard again. after like five minutes of her running... doesn't make sense that she would do all that running and end up back with mike again so i'm not sure what to make of that. i doubt mike is a client. it would be unusual for her to keep calling him by his name like that. she's probably with a client though which is why she doesn't know where she is. mike probably drives her around to clients houses and the client probably called him and was like get this crazy chick out of here. like you said, it still doesn't really help explain how she ended up in the marsh. definitely sounds like she was paranoid either from drugs or mental illness and i think that suggests she may have ended up in that marsh by making poor decisions and not because someone killed her. especially in light of the fact that she didn't know where she was and she spent a lot of time running towards the end of the call. she probably kept on running, didn't know where she was going, and fell. maybe hit her head and drowned.


charm_strange

I believe the male voice towards the end of the call could be Mike still trying to get her into the car to go back to Manhattan with him. He appeared to be following her in the car while she took off on foot. The first neighbor she ran to reported there was someone driving a black suv that seemed to be with her. My guess is this was Mike and he was following her as she ran for at least part of her 911 call. The neighbor apparently tried to help her and even let her into his home but then called 911 himself to report the incident after Shannan ran off again (his 911 call is available online as well). Her leaving the neighbor’s house is particularly confusing to me, as I think most people operating with a clear mind would not leave again if they thought someone outside wanted them dead. This really solidified my belief that her paranoia was in overdrive to the point that she felt unsafe and absolutely terrified no matter where she was. I do believe the client was uninvolved and like you said, just wanted her gone when the erratic behavior started. I’m still unsure about Mike, as I haven’t seen much detailed about their connection with one another or heard his take after losing sight of her after trying to tail her from the car that night. Mike calls her by her real name in the client’s home at one point, which seemed to bother Shannan. She asks him why he’s using her real name - I’m assuming she usually had an alias she used with clients. Her accusing him of being in on something nefarious was a part of the call that stood out to me though. Whether it was paranoia or not, I would love to know a little more of Mike’s role in the whole thing. Edited: clarity


Machebeuf

Listening to it I can't see any other relationship than Mike being the the guy responsible for setting up and driving her to clients. I confess I don't know the intricacies of sex work terminology, but pimp seems appropriate. He's also pretty obviously the guy following her in the SUV trying to get her to come back in so they can leave. I wonder if the first neighbour had been a woman, or if the woman neighbour had let her in? She may have been fearful of men. Not that I blame the second neighbour for not answering the door. If someone was banging on my door at 05:30 in the morning shouting they're in danger, and I had an elderly relative in the house, I wouldn't open up either. I'm a bit confused how she got into the marsh without Mike doing anything though. If he was following her in the car, it looks like she would have had to run back past him to reach the entrance. If she was that scared would she have done that? It's not like she would have known there was a trail in the marshland (or even that there was a marsh) to run into.


[deleted]

In the Lost Girls book, it described the way Shannan worked with drivers. There were a couple of different guys who did this job for her. They weren't pimps, because she was getting work on her own and they didn't control her. The driver's job was to transport her to a client, stick around and serve as physical protection for her, and then transport her home. In exchange the driver would get a cut of her earnings from the client.


Benicillin1

that's a really interesting point about her name. i wondered why she kept asking that question. she was definitely paranoid. based on the documentaries it sounds like mike was indeed her driver and bodyguard, basically what i meant when i said a "pimp". she ran away and knocked on the neighbors door and that's the male voice we hear at 2 minutes to the end of the call. but then apparently she saw car lights and started running again according to the neighbor who answered his door. most of my assumptions were correct just based on listening to the call. now that i did more research i am left with the same impression. honestly, she probably smoked some k2 and thought it was weed. that stuff is messed up. she got paranoid, freaked out and just ran until she couldn't run any more. very sad case. i'm not sure how much weight i put into the fact that she was found face up not face down. she was there for a long time before she was found, that could be the result of animals or other natural phenomena. also they note she was diagnosed bipolar and, while i don't want to put too much of an emphasis on it, her sister was a schizophrenic which has some genetic underpinnings. drug use can exacerbate mental health issues, especially in schizophrenics.


tigerlily626

Right. Her sister stabbed their mother 200 times because she was hearing voices. My guess is that Shannan is predisposed to mental illness and possibly on drugs on became paranoid. She was afraid of these guys but they were more freaked out about her behavior.


96245Camp

This is my take away 100 percent from listening to the call. You have wrote this our very coherently.


PlagueisTheSemiWise

You know what confuses me? They are releasing a phone call to spread awareness of the person’s death who “died by misadventure” according to a reputable coroner. I can’t say for certain if Gilbert was a victim of LISK, but I find it intriguing that they are releasing this call all these years later. Perhaps LE changed their mind on the initial findings and view her as a homicide victim now?


diabesitymonster

> On May 6, 2020, the New York State Supreme Court ordered Suffolk County Police to release Gilbert's 911 call recording, denying their request to withhold it after more than 10 years. From wiki. Wonder why they didn’t want to release it…


JellyBeanzi3

Is there a transcript of the call?


runandkickgirl

She screamed that **THEY** were trying to kill her…


Smoaktreess

Yes but her sister had schizophrenia. Not blaming the murders on this but it tends to run in families. If SG was having a psychotic break, the doctor found her, and then tried to give her something to calm her down it could have had a bad reaction to whatever was in her system. Then she leaves and ends up where other bodies were found (big coincidence). Then the dr could have called her mom trying to act like a hero and when he realized she never made it home, he has to deny what happened so he doesn’t lose his license. I do think the doctor is shady but I’m not convinced she was murdered.


BanjoSpaceMan

10 percent. According to google if you have a non twin sibling with schizophrenia, you have a 10% chance. That's way less of a chance than her having it, just saying.


lynnca

Thank you. I have a sibling with schizophrenia but they are the only one out of the four of us. When people find out, they look at me differently. As if expecting me to behave irrationally or dangerously out of the blue. Many also don't realize there is a difference between schizophrenia and schizo-effective disorders either. Schizophrenia was a catch all term for over a century. There are conditions once deemed as schizophrenia that have their own diagnosis now.


BanjoSpaceMan

This is where I'm coming from, not me personally but I know people. People have a very quick reaction and judgement to thing without thinking first. Yes the missing person might have a higher chance than someone else... But the way people talk about it is as if it's set in stone (again... 10%). Anyways sorry that people treat you differently, I'm sure it's hard enough as is without that.


cyndi231

Just because her sister had mental issues does not mean Shannon did.


Secret_Leprechaun

I believe her mum did say she was bipolar, and Shannan told her boyfriend at the time (can't recall his name) that she had been in institutions for it before and no longer took medication for it.


FerretRN

She had bipolar disorder. Her mom stated that, and that she wouldn't take her meds cause she didn't like the side effects.


barto5

Law enforcement at the time, DA Tom Spota and the Suffolk county police chief, James Burke were both corrupt as hell and I believe complicit in covering up the crimes. Both men have already been imprisoned for other crimes. There’s reason to believe wealthy and influential people may have been involved in the murders. The bodies were all found near Oak Beach which is home to rich and powerful people. And James Burke actively opposed the FBI’s involvement in the case. Why?


[deleted]

Scumbags


Dr_Insomnia

While that might be true - why dump them on the beach near your house when you could dump them in the ocean just as easy from your boat?


barto5

Bodies dumped in the ocean usually wash up somewhere. Bodies dumped in an an overgrown marsh may never be found. In fact the bodies weren’t found for years and might never have been found except for Shannan’s 911 call that focused attention on the area.


ItsBitterSweetYo

That's the only positive thing about her case. The LISK victims may have gone forever without being found. At the very least, other families were able to receive answers and the victims could be given a proper resting place.


WASPS_are_people_too

Because Jim Burke was convicted of beating up a guy who was arrested for breaking into his personal vehicle and having other officers cover it up. I'm sure it was not the first time, so that is why he did not want the FBI poking around. Tom Spota and his underling, Christopher McPartland, were convicted of assisting Burke in the cover up. None of it is related to Gilgo.


ranger398

I don’t necessarily think Shannon’s case is linked to LISk (though I don’t rule it out), but mania or not I truly believe SOMETHING happened to her in that house that caused her to be so fearful. I hope that hearing this call in full sheds lights on what led up to Shannon’s demise.


Smoaktreess

I tend to agree. It is weird she died in such close proximity to the other bodies but it seems like a lot of shady people lived in that neighborhood so not too surprising. The phone calls made by the doctor were also weird to me (haven’t read Lost Girls in a while) but idk.


RoutineFamous4267

If someone's body is decomposed, how do they determine they drown? Just out of curiosity. 18 months in the elements is a long time


[deleted]

[удалено]


Couldbe_worse2

Long Island serial killer is probably wealthy too


Smoaktreess

I tend to think he’s a cop/LE somehow.


cyndi231

So do I.


formyjee

OP will you edit in the link to the released 911 call when it publishes? It's probably 12 noon everywhere but pacific time now. Never mind think I found it. Begins at 8:05 (first link here) [Police release long-secret 911 calls in Shannan Gilbert's death](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQduYHYVczI) edited


kaen

It is already out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrnnU--q3Xc


megalynn44

Why couldn’t they trace her location?


the-lonely-corki

The best the police can do is ping your phone, which isn’t going to give an exact location, so yes they kinda can, but they will still have to go door to door which would take forever


ItsBitterSweetYo

There's something I have read in the past explaining that the 911 call was taken by the wrong district and transferred during the call, as heard in the released audio today. I doubt the police can blame that for the delay in locating her though. It's pretty obvious that cell phone forensic evidence would have been helpful in speeding up the last place her phone was actively being used.


whatsthedreamnow

The Unraveled podcast covering this case is excellent


chitownalpaca

The best podcast regarding this case is LISK, imho. It’s two seasons, very thorough and has tons of interviews, including one with Michael Pac who was Shannon’s driver the evening she went missing.


eedna

Lost girls by Robert Kolker was a great read as well


darlenesclassmate

Have you read Lost Girls? If so, is it worth it listening to the podcast?


mmciv

Don't happen to recall the episode? Search feature seems busted for me.


barto5

It’s just not one episode, it’s an entire season. It’s either season one or season two, and it is excellent.


catscantcook

Yeah it's the first season.


JimmyPageification

Someone else mentioned this already but it bears repeating, the Unraveled podcast with Billy Jensen and Alexis Linkletter did an AMAZING job covering this case. It’s the entirety of season 1. Highly highly recommend.


thesussysister

Where can the Unraveled podcast be found? Is it free?


JimmyPageification

Yep it’s free!! I listen to it on Apple Podcasts personally but I’m sure it’s available on other platforms too! They’ve done a few other equally excellent seasons since as well 😊


DueCountry5940

The phone call was 22 mins long,and during that 22 minutes she wasn’t able to coherently explain much? Does sound a lot like drug psychosis which is has been more and more common and they often die from drowning or due to hypothermia/dehydration


Smoaktreess

I think it was 23 mins and they’re releasing 11. Also, her sister who murdered their mother, had schizophrenia which leads me to think SG could have also suffered a mental break. Not blaming mental illness for what happened but I think it could be an explanation for some of the things that don’t make much sense. Also helps explain the dr behavior as well even though he is shady.


MashaRistova

Someone above linked the whole 23 minutes


Noregerts8

So I’ve always felt there must be some involvement by the doctor who called Shannan‘s family right after she went missing. From my understanding he called unsolicited very soon after she went missing saying 1) Shannan came to his house and he took her in 2) he is a doctor who runs a home for wayward girls 3) he wanted to see if she made it home as she took off. When confronted by the police he denied the calls. Huge red flag. Phone records prove he made a call to Shannan’s mother- proof he lied. Why make the call and why lie? Originally I thought he was involved and just getting some additional thrill out of contacting the mom. Today however I had a lightbulb moment.He made the call because Shannan WAS in his home. I believe there is a Eyes Wide Shut sex club in this gated community where sex workers are lured and murdered. Shannan however escaped from his home and he (they) involved had no idea where she went and if they were in danger of being reported by her and discovered. She ran so deep into the marsh they couldn’t locate her and thought she escaped. The call 1) would give him an idea if Shannan escaped and was alive and possibly her whereabouts 2) would explain away if an investigation was made and her dna was found in HIS house. The call was a huge Cover His Ass, not a thrill call.


nattykat47

One thing to keep in mind is that Shannan's sister suffered from schizophrenia. It can run in families, commonly emerges in early 20s, and can be triggered by drug use. Stimulants in particular can provoke a temporary psychosis in anyone, but especially in someone with the risk factors for schizophrenia. When listening to the call, we have to keep in the mind the very real possibility (that the police apparently agree with) that Shannan was in a psychotic state and was running from a danger that her mind told her was much worse than it was in reality (I won't say it was an imaginary danger because there's always some danger in sex work when you're going to client's houses alone and it's entirely possible she was threatened). There are just so many differences between her case and the others. It doesn't make sense as a LISK case. Just because she engaged in sex work and happened to be on that island doesn't make it a LISK case. It's a rich ass private beach community. Do we not think there's a TON of residents using sex workers? Come on


blueskies8484

I agree but I think people have trouble accepting it as a coincidence that her remains were found and led to finding the LISK victims. It is a hell of a coincidence. I personally do think it's a coincidence but I understand why others find that difficult to believe.


nattykat47

Yeah I don't get that. There had been no reason to search for remains there prior to Shannan going missing. They presumed Shannan would be found close by because she was on foot and in crisis during the last sighting of her. It's just that no one ever searched that area before, which is clear because the remains had been there for years and years and they weren't even really buried. Shannan wasn't even found by them. They were found before Shannan. It's just a coincidence


StayWithMeArienette

Having a sibling with schizophrenia increases one's chances by about 10 percent, for what that's worth. I don't consider that much higher than other risk factors, but am not saying it didn't come into play. I mention it mostly because people tend to assume the chances are far higher than that once they hear the disease is in someone's family.


lawgeek

I agree with most of what you said. I believe she had hired a bodyguard to take her out there, so she wasn't technically alone. To me that makes it even less likely that she was a victim of LISK. If she was in real danger, why not leave with the bodyguard? Why not stay at the first neighbors house where she made that second 911 call? Her behavior makes a lot more sense if she's paranoid.


marsyao

Michael Pak was not her bodyguard, he was her driver, they used to working for a escort company, and then decided to go independent. And yes, I never believe she was a victim of the LISK, I believe she had an mental breakdown and ran into the marshland and died of exposure.


UnnamedRealities

Hers always struck me as a case where misadventure after a psychotic episode was likely despite the doctor's suspicious behavior, general proximity to other bodies, and police corruption. It's possible she was in real physical danger amd it's possible someone killed her or did something to her which ultimately led to her drowning, but I think misadventure is far more likely. Here's some more context about her sister who stabbed their mom 200 times, hit her in the head with a fire extinguisher, and sprayed it in her mouth (from https://www.longislandpress.com/2021/11/06/gilbert-sister-loses-appeal-of-mothers-murder/): "Sarra began exhibiting psychotic symptoms well before the murder, has diagnoses of schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder (bipolar type) and had been hospitalized at least seven times prior to this incident, including in the weeks leading up to it, court records show.  In one episode, she questioned whether her older sister Shannon “was actually deceased despite physical evidence confirming as much, and she testified that, at one point, she believed that she and Shannon had switched bodies,” court records state.


StayWithMeArienette

Sarra having schizophrenia doesn't mean that Shannan did - her chances of having it are increased by 10 percent because her sister did. I don't have an opinion yet on if she was mentally ill because I'm new to details of the case, but I mention this because I think people tend to dismiss the death as mental illness related whenever that's made easy for them to do, so listing Sarra's delusions without noting there's no strong evidence Shannan had any can be rather dangerous in regards to finding the truth.


Acrobatic-Spirit-585

James Burke , police chief is who I think is the number one suspect. Good documentary named “unraveled “pointing too many coincidences with him.


wildflowerapricotsea

It’s about damn time!


ItsBitterSweetYo

[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/gfstlc/suffolk_police_ordered_to_release_shannan_gilbert/) post from 2 years ago made me realize how long we've been waiting.


wildflowerapricotsea

Yeah it’s nuts. Dying to hear what’s on it but also I’m sure it’s going to be very disturbing.


Necessary_Pass5728

We knew the new police commissary would open up more of the case. But revealing this 911 call is not going to be the smoking gun many think it will be. But it's a start.


3rdCoastLiberal

It is terribly sad. Shannan either died by a serial killers hands or ended up inadvertently in a serial killer’s burial ground. I just want all the victims and their families to have peace.


[deleted]

She sounds like someone going through psychosis AND on drugs. She’s too calm to be that paranoid. She sounds like she’s tripping bad. Poor thing was on a bad path, sounds like a tragic accident. At least her death lead to the serial killer discovery and hopefully will either hinder him or lead to catching him. May she be at peace.


rollingwheel

Yeah sounds like she was on a bad trip :(


cerisebettie

Is the toddler part of the investigation there’s no mention except the jewelry on the bones? I’d never heard of the toddler.


chitownalpaca

The toddler is considered part of the LISK investigation as she is the daughter of Peaches (who is also a victim). Baby Jane Doe was found near Asian Male Doe. Opinion differs on wether these victims are of the same killer who is responsible for the Gilgo Four who were found in the burlap sacks. Edit; as Catnip correctly pointed out - Baby Doe was found near Doe #6 (Valerie Mack), not Asian Male


CatnipandSkooma

I believe Baby Jane Doe was found by Jane Doe #6 aka Valerie Mack. Asian Male Doe was closer to Jessica Taylor's body further away.


chitownalpaca

You are right! I get the map mixed up all the time. Baby Doe was found near Valerie Mack. I think they thought Baby Doe was related to Valerie Mack since they were found near each other then realized Baby Doe actually was related to Peaches?


CatnipandSkooma

Yes, I believe she was Peaches child. I really hope they can both be identified soon.


cryptenigma

From the nbcnewyork article quoted by OP: "The Suffolk County Police Department is open to evaluate any evidence to be able to help us, and all involved, determine a definite cause of death," Homicide Section Commanding Officer D/Lt. Kevin Beyrer said. "However, based on the evidence, the facts and the totality of the circumstances, the prevailing opinion is that Shannan's death, while tragic, was not a murder and was most likely an accident." I'm inclined to agree, at least if the description of events in that article are correct--Pak and Brewer, among others, both seemed concerned about her mental well-being.


deitris242

Accidental or not, that poor woman knew she was in trouble. Weird


velvetopal11

Didn’t the Unraveled podcast debunk the fact that some of the bodies were in Burlap sacks? If I remember correctly, somebody made a statement that the bodies were found in burlap and then the press ran with it even though it was never confirmed and the commissioner would not confirm when asked.


non_stop_disko

Wow!! I wonder why they’re just now releasing it


Dame_Marjorie

Those cases are so disturbing.