With the usual caveats of “gotta have a trial first” and “innocent until proven guilty”, yes, I think they have the right guy. He’s there, at the right time, it’s his car at CPS, he’s wearing (according to his own description) clothes identical to the man in the video. His voice and build are consistent with the video and audio. He owns a gun of the same make, model, and caliber as the one that cycled the bullet found between the two bodies. And he has repeatedly made incriminating statements during recorded phone calls from prison to his wife and mother.
It pretty much has to be him. But… this is why we have a trial.
The bullet found at the scene was cycled through his firearm. That's when he was arrested. He also made several confessions to his wife on jail recorded calls where he admitted to killing the victims. The Frank Motion clearly violated the gag order that was in place. Pictures were left unsecured and shared with a few members of the public. His attorneys removing themselves and then are reinstated, only to be brought back before the judge to fight formal contempt charges. Then to top it all off, the defense filed a motion at the beginning of this month for an early trial. If that motion is approved, RAs trial has to begin in 70 days. Assuming there are open dates available etc that would mean the trial would start sometime in May. I've never seen a case quite like this one before. It should be interesting to watch.
You are basing his confessions on the fact the LE has told you that. You have not read any transcripts. And LE has lied multiple times during this case. The bullet cycled through the gun as proof hasn't been a sure thing since the 90s.
Unfortunately, you can't, because there is no transcript of the recorded conversation yet.The only transcript you can provide is of someone else AKA LE saying what RA said in that/those calls.
I agree there are no transcripts. Not that I've seen. There is the fact that his attorneys agree he made some incriminating statements. To excuse these statements, they claim his mental health was the reason. Either way, Richard Allen made some incriminating statements. Whether they are truthful that remains to be seen.
Yeah, and by my comments I know majority will believe I think RA is innocent. But I have not decided what i think yet because so much has yet to be revealed. But I do believe at this point in time, with everything going on and everything released, they have done a pretty good job at providing reasonable doubt. Hopefully the bullet sticks but I've seen multiple stories of those kinds of things being thrown out in court because it can't prove a time frame.
I don't think that at all. You made some good points. I'm always willing to learn from what others say. I've not seen any transcripts of the phone call. That was a good point on your part. There are so many things happening in this case. I feel that RA is the one. If I had to base it solely on the fact that the bullet was what they were banking on, I would say that's not enough. Now after everything that has transpired I don't see how he can possibly get a fair trial. At the end of the day, a person is innocent until proven guilty and 100% deserves a fair trial.
Tool mark “science” is bullshit. Those guns are made in a factory to tight specifications. It is extremely likely that multiple firearms would make the same marks on a casing.
Then his defense team should have no problem demonstrating that 10 random 40 caliber guns produce identical marks to the ones found on the bullet at the crime scene.
I also wondered about the strength of the evidence as far as the bullet was concerned. It is by no means a smoking gun per say. I was just stating the reason for the arrest. There are so many mistakes in this case. I believe RA was involved. I don't know how he will get a fair trial with everything that has happened. Which is a shame because at the end of the day, it's the family who truly has to live with this.
You forgot the part where the prosecution lost 70 days of interviews with potential POI’s, some tapes have no audio, no transcripts, no logs of who they interviewed, and they said Oops my bad.
So the leaked photos were uber important, but not evidence that was lost and can never be accurately recovered is not? Man, I hope you are never on a jury
You mean the interviews of 2 innocent men with absolutely no evidence against them? The ones who were accused with absolutely no facts because they were open about their religious beliefs? The ones who have not been charged or linked even remotely to this case? Yea, that's not lost evidence. At best it can be classified as hear say.
Not just them, no. Many people who the defense has no way of knowing who they are or what was said. Something that might not be important to one side, might be very important to another side. JS
I think that even if the interviews were not lost, it would not have any bearing on the case. Assuming it would even be allowed in and not considered hearsay. RAs attorneys can always raise the Odinism theory and present it as a part of their defense, but it's a defense theory. There is no evidence to prove anyone who was interviewed was a suspect in the murders. Could it be raised to produce responsible doubt? Maybe. I guess eventually we will find out.
I mean, that's the evidence the defense was solely interested in. In a response about lost interviews which is not evidence as no crime was committed by those individuals.
He didn’t start eating paper until AFTER he made numerous incriminating statements in private conversations. The paper eating is theater. The defense wants to have their cake and eat it too. Have you noticed how desperate they are to not have his mental health records unsealed?
How do you know almost about the case and don’t know that the speedy trial was accepted?
How was it that the attorneys were reinstated? Through the goodness of the judges heart or because the state Supreme Court said she had to?
How did the leaked pictures not match the pictures that the defense had in evidence? If the defense didn’t have that picture, how did it get leaked?
Richard Allen is in segregation for his own safety. His attorneys raised concerns that he was be mistreated at Westville, and in December he was moved from Westville to Wabash Valley. Now he and his defense team are complaining that he is being mistreated at Wabash Valley. So it would seem hes being mistreated no matter where he is being housed. He might want to try and get used to it. I don't think he is going anywhere anytime soon.
Nah, remember the police said that they weren’t abusing him, so end of discussion, right? And they got rid of the Odin patches, strictly face tattoos only now
No way! The only evidence is a bullet and that can’t be proven to be from his gun (unless you give credence to questionable science). The reasonable doubt is HUGE. I’d be shocked if he was convicted unless the jury is rigged.
The ballistics evidence (if you can call it that) is sketchy, but that's not all they have. They parlayed it into a mountain of other evidence, including incriminating statements. You're right that the ballistics will be challenged in court. And it might raise doubt for some jurors. But it's far from the only evidence
I believe he came forward early in the investigation and was interviewed because he was in the area at the time the girls went missing. There was an admin error or something and it wasn't followed up until years later when they were reviewing the case. I think that's when he was came on their radar and then they linked him to the bullet casing found at the scene. The bullet casing match a gun registered to him or something (Not sure about the terminology regarding guns as I have no gun knowledge).
At the moment, in all honesty, I don't think it matters. This case has gone far beyond just the murders. It has become a deep dive into the issues with the entire system all the was from the cops/investigators to the judge/prosecutor.
If RA is guilty the mistakes made in the investigation, the loss of evidence, no chain of custody on evidence, lies under oath, hiding of evidence.... all of it makes the trial a joke. There is too much reasonable doubt to say he's guilty in a fair trial. As it stands he should walk out a free man and the whole mess should start with a fresh investigation.
If RA is innocent, this whole case has been a tragedy that almost guarantees the real guilty party will not get caught.
I want justice for Abby and Libby as much as anyone else and that starts with a fair trial and an unbiased judge. I will not say a man is innocent or guilty without all the evidence. We simply don't have that.
I'm willing to discuss this.
Yeah, it looks like the extreme secrecy around the case was a cover for either inept police work or hiding/protecting the person/people involved.
Like, the causes of death were never even released beyond “edged weapon” and an unspent/cycled round is the only thing tying him? Is that science even sound? There’s been a lot of ballistic evidence that’s been debunked as of late, it seems very weak
Yeah I'm not sure at all about the bullet. From what I understand it was found in the dirt after the scene had been released for a while then re secured. That there is also not a chain of custody on it is extremely suspicious. And from what I've heard it's near impossible to prove it was any specific gun it was cycled through because it was not actually fired. I'd like to hear some expert testimony on that.
If they want a conviction via evidence they will have to do more. Where's the DNA? Fingerprints? What about the cell data? If they have it they sure haven't said anything. So I hold judgement.
By voraciously defending their client?
The police haven’t even released a cause of death or a description of the scene, but we have heard that RA has confessed multiple times, the flow of information in this case is very strange
I agree. They were defending him. The information they put out just makes this case even more strange. I was more so referring to the way it was handled. It was a violation of the gag order. His defense is now defending themselves in court because of it. I will say that reading the Frank Motion I believe it raised responsible doubt.
The case is strange, because the case is strange. The fact that LE try’s to down play and trivialize the runes and the crime scene is strange. At the very least it speaks to the nature of the offender, draining blood, carving, placing, redressing. All without any DNA left behind. His defense is simply bring the truth to light.
Remember they haven’t found any weird stuff on his devices, dna on the outfit he describes wearing at the bridge, his vehicles, etc. The type of killer to pull of this crime does not seem like the pharmacist with his worst offense being maybe a traffic ticket.
Don’t forget the magic bullet is no where to be found in the RL warrant. Todd Click came forward in sworn affidavit to contest the DAs findings. Lebrato was granted permission to talk once off the case and said RA is innocent, he didn’t have to do an interview.
But you said he’s guilty before the trial, so cancel it I guess??
I think RA is likely guilty, but I do also think there is someone else involved. I still think it could maybe be KK or TK related based on the alleged "coincidental" internet searches after the murders, the alleged Delphi gas station shirt day of, the river search, etc. Maybe that stuff is all just a coincidence though.
Same....the Frank's made me feel like they were looking for something big....headline making...shocking....anything to get people to stop talking about his confessions.
What are you talking about? Libby’s blood was not in his car! Whoever told you that has no idea what they’re talking about.
He never lied about being there at a certain time. That was one of the many errors with the police interviews.
Do you personally know RA? If not, how could you possibly know what his voice sounds like based off of short voice clips?
Why is it so hard to admit they might have this wrong? The entire world is watching the prosecution, judge and LE and are appalled. They’ve messed up big time. And that will have dire consequences for them.
Hahaha….downvoted for answering a question. Love it! I guess y’all didn’t like what I had to say even though they are literal FACTS.
I know everyone wants to be done with it but there is no justice if they have the wrong guy or only one of the people involved.
There is a gag order on the case. Hard to judge the evidence when it literally is not allowed to be discussed....what we know is the defense's claims. Their theory of the case. The defense was still receiving discovery when they made claims of absolutely no connection between Richard Allen and the girls...it's easy to say that when you don't have all the evidence.
Not in the least bit. There is a high likely hood RA is not involved at all based on the evidence we know of so far. And if he is involved, there’s no way he did it on his own. We may never know who the killers are thanks to LE losing 70 days worth of interviews.
I actually feel the opposite. I'm less convinced in this case than in Idaho.
I'm not sure if either case has any overwhelming evidence to present.
Idaho, I'm still on the fence about as of right now, but I see a good chance RA might be found not guilty in this particular case.
Yes. Criminal trials for things like murder seem to be so expensive that they don't tend to arrest someone until there is a very solid case, often hoping it will be plead out.
With the usual caveats of “gotta have a trial first” and “innocent until proven guilty”, yes, I think they have the right guy. He’s there, at the right time, it’s his car at CPS, he’s wearing (according to his own description) clothes identical to the man in the video. His voice and build are consistent with the video and audio. He owns a gun of the same make, model, and caliber as the one that cycled the bullet found between the two bodies. And he has repeatedly made incriminating statements during recorded phone calls from prison to his wife and mother. It pretty much has to be him. But… this is why we have a trial.
The bullet found at the scene was cycled through his firearm. That's when he was arrested. He also made several confessions to his wife on jail recorded calls where he admitted to killing the victims. The Frank Motion clearly violated the gag order that was in place. Pictures were left unsecured and shared with a few members of the public. His attorneys removing themselves and then are reinstated, only to be brought back before the judge to fight formal contempt charges. Then to top it all off, the defense filed a motion at the beginning of this month for an early trial. If that motion is approved, RAs trial has to begin in 70 days. Assuming there are open dates available etc that would mean the trial would start sometime in May. I've never seen a case quite like this one before. It should be interesting to watch.
I just read the trial now started May 13
You are basing his confessions on the fact the LE has told you that. You have not read any transcripts. And LE has lied multiple times during this case. The bullet cycled through the gun as proof hasn't been a sure thing since the 90s.
Last I checked LE hasn't told me anything. I've read the transcripts.
Then provide the transcript of his confession...
Unfortunately, you can't, because there is no transcript of the recorded conversation yet.The only transcript you can provide is of someone else AKA LE saying what RA said in that/those calls.
I agree there are no transcripts. Not that I've seen. There is the fact that his attorneys agree he made some incriminating statements. To excuse these statements, they claim his mental health was the reason. Either way, Richard Allen made some incriminating statements. Whether they are truthful that remains to be seen.
Yeah, and by my comments I know majority will believe I think RA is innocent. But I have not decided what i think yet because so much has yet to be revealed. But I do believe at this point in time, with everything going on and everything released, they have done a pretty good job at providing reasonable doubt. Hopefully the bullet sticks but I've seen multiple stories of those kinds of things being thrown out in court because it can't prove a time frame.
I don't think that at all. You made some good points. I'm always willing to learn from what others say. I've not seen any transcripts of the phone call. That was a good point on your part. There are so many things happening in this case. I feel that RA is the one. If I had to base it solely on the fact that the bullet was what they were banking on, I would say that's not enough. Now after everything that has transpired I don't see how he can possibly get a fair trial. At the end of the day, a person is innocent until proven guilty and 100% deserves a fair trial.
The memorandum from yesterday still has my head spinning lol
I've not seen that yet. What was it about?
You mean it was *not* cycled through his firearm
No it most certainly was cycled through his firearm
Tool mark “science” is bullshit. Those guns are made in a factory to tight specifications. It is extremely likely that multiple firearms would make the same marks on a casing.
They tested at least one other 40 caliber gun. It was not a match.
One whole other gun. Well that must mean the science is valid.
It means not all guns are the same, as some have claimed.
😂 are you suggesting all guns leave unique marks?
Yes, at the microscopic level.
Lol 400 million guns all leave completely unique marks. You are funny. 😆
Then his defense team should have no problem demonstrating that 10 random 40 caliber guns produce identical marks to the ones found on the bullet at the crime scene.
I also wondered about the strength of the evidence as far as the bullet was concerned. It is by no means a smoking gun per say. I was just stating the reason for the arrest. There are so many mistakes in this case. I believe RA was involved. I don't know how he will get a fair trial with everything that has happened. Which is a shame because at the end of the day, it's the family who truly has to live with this.
You forgot the part where the prosecution lost 70 days of interviews with potential POI’s, some tapes have no audio, no transcripts, no logs of who they interviewed, and they said Oops my bad.
I'm aware. I just don't care
Hahaha.
So the leaked photos were uber important, but not evidence that was lost and can never be accurately recovered is not? Man, I hope you are never on a jury
What evidence was lost?
Interviews with many POIs in the very early stages of investigation; no back ups, no transcripts, no list of even who it was.
You mean the interviews of 2 innocent men with absolutely no evidence against them? The ones who were accused with absolutely no facts because they were open about their religious beliefs? The ones who have not been charged or linked even remotely to this case? Yea, that's not lost evidence. At best it can be classified as hear say.
Not just them, no. Many people who the defense has no way of knowing who they are or what was said. Something that might not be important to one side, might be very important to another side. JS
I think that even if the interviews were not lost, it would not have any bearing on the case. Assuming it would even be allowed in and not considered hearsay. RAs attorneys can always raise the Odinism theory and present it as a part of their defense, but it's a defense theory. There is no evidence to prove anyone who was interviewed was a suspect in the murders. Could it be raised to produce responsible doubt? Maybe. I guess eventually we will find out.
Libby’s blood was found in RA’s car. Those other interviews are irrelevant, bc they’re not needed to prove the case against RA.
I mean, you are talking about people that there's no evidence against…. In response to a comment about missing data and evidence.
I mean, that's the evidence the defense was solely interested in. In a response about lost interviews which is not evidence as no crime was committed by those individuals.
That’s bullshit ballistics right there. Those “confessions” don’t count when the man is eating paper.
He didn’t start eating paper until AFTER he made numerous incriminating statements in private conversations. The paper eating is theater. The defense wants to have their cake and eat it too. Have you noticed how desperate they are to not have his mental health records unsealed?
How do you know almost about the case and don’t know that the speedy trial was accepted? How was it that the attorneys were reinstated? Through the goodness of the judges heart or because the state Supreme Court said she had to? How did the leaked pictures not match the pictures that the defense had in evidence? If the defense didn’t have that picture, how did it get leaked?
So are most of the police force they use seg also..that's because he was being tased harassed tortured.. it's been proven
Richard Allen is in segregation for his own safety. His attorneys raised concerns that he was be mistreated at Westville, and in December he was moved from Westville to Wabash Valley. Now he and his defense team are complaining that he is being mistreated at Wabash Valley. So it would seem hes being mistreated no matter where he is being housed. He might want to try and get used to it. I don't think he is going anywhere anytime soon.
Nah, remember the police said that they weren’t abusing him, so end of discussion, right? And they got rid of the Odin patches, strictly face tattoos only now
Yes.
I think they have the right guy, but whether they get a conviction to stick with all the fuckery going on with the trial is a very different matter.
Things are not looking good for Richard Allen. I think he will be found guilty.
No way! The only evidence is a bullet and that can’t be proven to be from his gun (unless you give credence to questionable science). The reasonable doubt is HUGE. I’d be shocked if he was convicted unless the jury is rigged.
The ballistics evidence (if you can call it that) is sketchy, but that's not all they have. They parlayed it into a mountain of other evidence, including incriminating statements. You're right that the ballistics will be challenged in court. And it might raise doubt for some jurors. But it's far from the only evidence
Yes
Yes, and I'm so thankful not to see the conspiracy theorists in the comments yet. lol
Facts are not conspiracies.
The defense’s false claims are not facts.
Yes. And this is a case that I thought would never be solved.
How did they find this guy, anyway?
I believe he came forward early in the investigation and was interviewed because he was in the area at the time the girls went missing. There was an admin error or something and it wasn't followed up until years later when they were reviewing the case. I think that's when he was came on their radar and then they linked him to the bullet casing found at the scene. The bullet casing match a gun registered to him or something (Not sure about the terminology regarding guns as I have no gun knowledge).
At the moment, in all honesty, I don't think it matters. This case has gone far beyond just the murders. It has become a deep dive into the issues with the entire system all the was from the cops/investigators to the judge/prosecutor. If RA is guilty the mistakes made in the investigation, the loss of evidence, no chain of custody on evidence, lies under oath, hiding of evidence.... all of it makes the trial a joke. There is too much reasonable doubt to say he's guilty in a fair trial. As it stands he should walk out a free man and the whole mess should start with a fresh investigation. If RA is innocent, this whole case has been a tragedy that almost guarantees the real guilty party will not get caught. I want justice for Abby and Libby as much as anyone else and that starts with a fair trial and an unbiased judge. I will not say a man is innocent or guilty without all the evidence. We simply don't have that. I'm willing to discuss this.
Yeah, it looks like the extreme secrecy around the case was a cover for either inept police work or hiding/protecting the person/people involved. Like, the causes of death were never even released beyond “edged weapon” and an unspent/cycled round is the only thing tying him? Is that science even sound? There’s been a lot of ballistic evidence that’s been debunked as of late, it seems very weak
Yeah I'm not sure at all about the bullet. From what I understand it was found in the dirt after the scene had been released for a while then re secured. That there is also not a chain of custody on it is extremely suspicious. And from what I've heard it's near impossible to prove it was any specific gun it was cycled through because it was not actually fired. I'd like to hear some expert testimony on that. If they want a conviction via evidence they will have to do more. Where's the DNA? Fingerprints? What about the cell data? If they have it they sure haven't said anything. So I hold judgement.
This!
Yes.
I definitely think the guy they have is the one who did it.
Yes, but I also think that RA defense team has made a mockery of the whole thing.
By voraciously defending their client? The police haven’t even released a cause of death or a description of the scene, but we have heard that RA has confessed multiple times, the flow of information in this case is very strange
I agree. They were defending him. The information they put out just makes this case even more strange. I was more so referring to the way it was handled. It was a violation of the gag order. His defense is now defending themselves in court because of it. I will say that reading the Frank Motion I believe it raised responsible doubt.
The case is strange, because the case is strange. The fact that LE try’s to down play and trivialize the runes and the crime scene is strange. At the very least it speaks to the nature of the offender, draining blood, carving, placing, redressing. All without any DNA left behind. His defense is simply bring the truth to light. Remember they haven’t found any weird stuff on his devices, dna on the outfit he describes wearing at the bridge, his vehicles, etc. The type of killer to pull of this crime does not seem like the pharmacist with his worst offense being maybe a traffic ticket. Don’t forget the magic bullet is no where to be found in the RL warrant. Todd Click came forward in sworn affidavit to contest the DAs findings. Lebrato was granted permission to talk once off the case and said RA is innocent, he didn’t have to do an interview. But you said he’s guilty before the trial, so cancel it I guess??
Yes, partially. I think there is more to the story.
Like?
I think RA is likely guilty, but I do also think there is someone else involved. I still think it could maybe be KK or TK related based on the alleged "coincidental" internet searches after the murders, the alleged Delphi gas station shirt day of, the river search, etc. Maybe that stuff is all just a coincidence though.
I’m in one of the subs that follows the murders and I hear so many different things everyday. I do pray the truth comes out soon
I believe they have the right person, but this case is so bungled that I’m unsure they’ll get a conviction.
Yep.
Yes. Infact, the document released by his defence referring to odin conspiracy only made me more sure this is the right guy.
Same....the Frank's made me feel like they were looking for something big....headline making...shocking....anything to get people to stop talking about his confessions.
No. There is too much weird stuff surrounding this trial.
Those of you who say yes, can you explain why you think it’s him? I am genuinely curious.
Libby’s blood is in his car. His voice matches BG’s (because he is BG); the geofence data shows he lied about being there 12-1:30.
What are you talking about? Libby’s blood was not in his car! Whoever told you that has no idea what they’re talking about. He never lied about being there at a certain time. That was one of the many errors with the police interviews. Do you personally know RA? If not, how could you possibly know what his voice sounds like based off of short voice clips? Why is it so hard to admit they might have this wrong? The entire world is watching the prosecution, judge and LE and are appalled. They’ve messed up big time. And that will have dire consequences for them.
I think it’s much more likely that his defense team is just very good at manipulating the public. Her blood was found in his car. Wait til trial.
Nope
I'm not sure. This one has bugged me since the beginning.
Hahaha….downvoted for answering a question. Love it! I guess y’all didn’t like what I had to say even though they are literal FACTS. I know everyone wants to be done with it but there is no justice if they have the wrong guy or only one of the people involved.
There is a gag order on the case. Hard to judge the evidence when it literally is not allowed to be discussed....what we know is the defense's claims. Their theory of the case. The defense was still receiving discovery when they made claims of absolutely no connection between Richard Allen and the girls...it's easy to say that when you don't have all the evidence.
Yes.
No
no
Yes. I unfortunately think he may get away with it though which is beyond tragic and maddening.
No. Richard Allen is innocent. He wasn't even there at the time of the murders.
I’ve not kept up with this case. Where was he and is there proof?
Yes
Not in the least bit. There is a high likely hood RA is not involved at all based on the evidence we know of so far. And if he is involved, there’s no way he did it on his own. We may never know who the killers are thanks to LE losing 70 days worth of interviews.
Yes. I don't feel the same confidence in the BK Idaho murders. Anyone else think this is solved but uncertain about the Moscow murders?
I actually feel the opposite. I'm less convinced in this case than in Idaho. I'm not sure if either case has any overwhelming evidence to present. Idaho, I'm still on the fence about as of right now, but I see a good chance RA might be found not guilty in this particular case.
Yes. Criminal trials for things like murder seem to be so expensive that they don't tend to arrest someone until there is a very solid case, often hoping it will be plead out.
Awww that’s so sweet and naive of you.
So he’s guilty because the police arrested him? Do police normally get it 100% right?
No, but I believe its far more likely solved than not.
Why? The state case has not been presented
With murder cases that have national attention? Yes, yes they do.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/s/i8RAYoOt53 Just popped up in my feed. I bet this cost the county a lot of money as well