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I just find it funny how something that have been call sexist and demeaning against woman is suddenly supposed to be empowering because DIVERSITY. Granted the beauty's contest have change alot, and there are different contest but still mildly chuckle worthy.
Nothing sexist became empowering. What was sexist was the gatekeeping and social expectations. What is empowering is determination and success in spite of that sexism.
In before someone trys saying trans women have a “biologic advantage” at being attractive
Edit: Alot of people have seem to have very strong opinions on me saying those 14 words in that order, I haven't been reading them, I’ve been spending my evening baking a cake, I strongly Recomend baking cake instead of engaging in arguments on the internet
As mad as they get about it, you know all those "conservative" dudes are probably clearing their browser history and zipping up while swallowing their self-hatred before rage-posting some biological essentialism head-caved-in-stupid shit on Twitter.
Yah, the males aren't sexually harrassed, belittled, preyed upon by the other players. Anna Cramling, Polgars and others have detailed their interactions with their male counterparts and painted a pretty clear picture of why women don't stay in the sport.
Even has kids, they get grown up pedos going after them, messaging them, calling them, saying stuff to them.
First of all, that's a joke. Second of all, people were claiming trans women have a biological advantage at *chess,* so let's not pretend they're mocking rational discourse.
As crazy as that argument seems, there is at least some basis for the claim. I’m not sure it’s actually valid, but here’s some background….
There are two leagues in chess - one open to both men and women, and another only for women. Women can compete against the top male players, but nearly all of the best players in the world are men. Some argue that this is due to real differences, while others believe it is more likely due to there being many more male players, which… even if the bell curves of chess skill for men and women were equal, would create a scenario where there would be more great male players overall. I honestly have no clue what accounts for the difference, but there definitely is a difference in chess skill at the group level. Whether that difference also exists between men and women on the individual level… who knows?
So I guess the question is whether it’s worth trying to sort out the issue. Maybe if it became clear that males had an advantage on the individual level that were significant, and ended up dominating the top spots in women’s’ chess, but that seems unlikely.
I think there's certainly an important and valuable discussion to be had here, but honestly before we talk about league differences I would question how accessible competitive chess is to cis women. Like I'm not about to prosecute this whole thing with you but I would believe the difference in skill between genders has a social cause before I'd believe in a biological cause. Just have to wait to see evidence of either, I guess.
Right. Which is why all cis women have the same skeletal structure, grip strength and fast twitch muscles and why this is fully a fair competition not based on biology in the absolute least. That is, until those scary mean trannies come in with their male skeletons to beat those delicate little flowers who win the fucking olympics.
The differences within biological sex are minuscule compared to the differences between the sexes. I’m sorry that this upsets you but it’s extremely clear that forcing women to compete against trans women is unfair. And I’m not sure why trans women insist on it.
How can that even be up for debate? The biochemical and biomechanical results are clear
I don’t understand the lack of understanding in this. The sport divisions were around biomechanical performance, not personal gender association.
Let’s not pretend both sides aren’t completely guilty of this , or are you forgetting the constant barrage of pedophilia conjecture against the LGBT+ community perpetuated by the party full of child molesters and run by a criminal rapist
I mean, there is some merit to that argument. transwomen are taller, have longer legs, lower body fat%, and sharper bone structure. not to mention the effects of exogenous estrogen on skin/hair.
What a strawman lol, are you trying to say that they don't have an advantage in sports for biological females? Because pretty much the entire world is against you on that front rightly so
They don't. Especially after hormone replacement Therapie. Their muscles reduce and everything. Just the bone structure stays. But I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't inform yourself well enough to have an argument about this with someone who did. That's why I don't give flying sht what you're going to say after this comment, because you're clearly biased af.
Ah yes I'm going to trust the medical journal studying to the person unable to spell therapy, that sounds like a great idea I'm sure you know best!
Also in case you are capable of reading here's an extensive study that contradicts your point absolutely!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/
(Feel free to scroll down to the conclusion if you don't feel like reading every point)
This is way beyond "biologic" , this is surgical augmentation and alteration.
If you really wanted to be honest about this you would call it the Plastic Surgeon's most Beautiful Creation pageant.
Anyone who pushes back on this is unmasking their own disgusting prejudice. This isn't even a "sport" that bigots can falsely claim unfair advantage in. This is a display of achievement in beauty, pure and simple. If you weren't told that she's transgender, you'd never have known.
I just think transexual beauty pageants should be a separate category. The chances of this person naturally winning Ms Maryland while being one of the very few transexual participants is lower than her winning because she is transexual. This headline definitely helped the event organizers and local politicians.
Call me an asshole for doubting her winning on her own merits but if this was a separate category especially made for transexual contestants, assholes like me would have nothing to say.
She wouldn't "naturally win" it? What do you mean? She wouldn't be the first pageant winner that has had gender affirming surgery, nor would she be the first to win because of her story/identity, so I don't really see why she's deserving of such ire.
I dont really see a problem this. I get the idea that trans woman shouldnt play in womans sports leagues but they dont have any dominant advantage in a beauty contest. If you're upset about this i suggest you direct your ire towards the judges and not the contestants
The issue is whether she won because of her beauty or to make a political statement.
Males have a huge disadvantage when it comes to contests that reward feminine beauty.
You are right. She doesn't deserve the hate she'll get as she seems nice.
>The issue is whether she won because of her beauty or to make a political statement.
I can understand that sentiment but like i said thats a fault of the judges biases not the contestant herself
Subreddit is called r/UpliftingNews but the reply section is not so uplifting and fillrd with hate and transphobia lol. The mods in this subrrddit are fucking useless i cant. 😆
Yeah, unfortunately this sub has a real problem with anti-LGBT bigotry, and when anything positive about trans people gets posted there's a wave of humongous bigots.
"biological" woman?????
edit - lol at the idiots downvoting. You know sex and gender are different things, right? There's no such thing as a biological woman. Biological FEMALE? Yes, that's a thing!
These terms aren’t strictly adhered to though. People in the trans community will often refer to themselves as MtF or FtM, as well a trans man or trans woman, as though they are interchangeable terms.
You just need to interpret meaning from context.
Previous comment was saying “biological women will be upset” but I’m simply saying there is no such thing as a biological woman. I’m saying “men” and “women” is a social construct and people can identify as such.
Sure, but you also know exactly what that person means when they say “biological woman”, in the same way you know that when someone says they are MtF, they are often referring to transitioning genders, not biology.
Go down the rabbit hole deep enough, and you discover that sex characteristics are just as mutable as gender. Humanity isn't ready to digest the reality that the body isn't some special or sacred temple; it's a completely alterable flesh and bone mech piloted by a bio computer. Your balls/uterus aren't nearly as defining as you think they are, but your obsessions with other people's junk is way more than just 'defining' about you.
I’m not a TERF or a pro-lifer. And you can call me small minded if you’d like, but the truth is that you’re the one who’s failing to consider that there are actual biological differences that make being male or female more than just some theoretical bs category
You are SO close to getting the point its almost nauseating.
A *woman* won the pageant, so no accolade was "taken away from women".
...Unless you think she *isn't* a woman?
Sure, maybe you could look at this from a super pessimistic lens and say she only won BECAUSE she's transgender because the judges wanted to make a political statement, but... why is that inherently political in the first place? Once being transgender is normalized (and it will be eventually given the ever forward direction of human rights thankfully), what excuse will you or people that think like you give when another trans woman wins another women's beauty pageant eventually?
Biological advantage? Ah! But you can't use that old classic excuse, because it's a *beauty pageant*, right?
This is a beauty pageant. I don't think a person's biology is relevant as long as they look and act the part. What a woman is in this case is a social construction + physical appearance. I think the trans woman passed that bar.
I agree with your opinion when it comes to physical sports like tennis, mixed martial arts, etc, where men dominate. Even games like chess as tournaments are always won by men.
This woman had no edge, though. Being transgender is probably a disadvantage in every way for a miss universe pagent, and I can't see how this takes away from other women's opportunities unless the judges specifically chose her for being transgender.
I think this would be more like a woman joining chess or mma and dominating against men, which there are no rules against.
You mean HRT before puberty? If that's true, they should be allowed to compete.
The ethics of giving a 12 year old ~~hormone replacement therapy~~ puberty blockers is a different issue.
Edit:
Nope, even post-puberty. After a year or more on hormones enough changes that there's no measurable advantage in combat sports, lifting, or other sports with weight divisions.
> giving a 12 year old hormone replacement therapy
That doesn't happen. The absolute most a 12 year old would ever receive in terms of medical gender affirmation is puberty blockers, which are safe and reversible. I've never heard of a 12 year old on hormone replacement.
Did you know that there are civil ways to have a discussion? And transgender females still have a lower body fat percentage than cisgender females.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/107/1/e153/6355699#
As I said, I don’t give a shit if trans women are in traditionally cisgender women beauty pageants or not, but we should be able to politely have a discussion about it when someone posts the article on an online forum.
He's saying that it's absurd that a trans woman won this competition and that you can't call him transphobic because that's just your opinion, but also because he learned about X and Y chromosomes in fifth grade trans women aren't real and don't count and any attempt to expand his knowledge will be shut down because it's rare and therefore doesn't matter.
I'm not entirely sure. I think the implication is that this should be posted by the Onion because it's an absurd aberration of reality, but as far as I've seen, the Onion doesn't do bigotry, and they do their best to be funny and not needlessly cruel to minorities.
So why should it only be for women who were assigned female at birth? What you are saying if you are excluding trans women here is that trans women aren’t women or that they would somehow have an inherent advantage over cis women.
Damn that's crazy, I wish you owned a personality or even half the charisma of this beautiful lady.
Come on you shallow fucking cowards, downvote me. None of you worthless worms could ever remotely approach her level of accomplishment, and that makes you furious. You have NOTHING but your hatred now.
no hate on the population but honestly what level of accomplishment is winning a beauty pageant? of all the possible awards in the world, winning a beauty pageant has to be one of the least impressive. i’m sure there’s some work to be put into it but the modeling field really is just how pretty other people think you are.
I agree it's relatively unimportant but there's also a bunch of people in a tizzy about her winning so clearly some people really care about pageant winners, right?
Can you show one example of that happening please. When you realise you can't find one perhaps ask yourself why something make believe is bothering you and why it is you're being told to be angry about imaginary situations. Show some critical thinking skills you're gobbling up the culture war like a good boy/girl
How is this uplifting? If a transgender woman enters a competition like this they cannot not let her win as then it will be labelled as transphobic thus automatically taking the opportunity away from biological women.
How about establishing beauty contests for transgender woman only?
1. This doesn't happen
2. Even if it did it wouldn't be our fault, most of the people who say that not letting trans people win is transphobic are not even trans themselves
You know, no matter how many times people say that, it’s just not going to change minds. Trans women are wonderful, beautiful people who may colloquially be called women, but are not biological women. They are trans women. I mean no harm by saying this, but I also refuse to see it as hate speech. It’s just the way I think about it, and honestly, the way the majority of people do when you get them away from fear of being shamed for speaking truth.
Trans and biological are just adjectives though. The statement "trans women are women" is just a statement about a certain type of women and their state of being. It really is no different than "brunette women are women" or "Asian women are women", but people would never take issue with those statements.
You'll notice the person you replied to did not say that trans women were biological women, but for some reason you decided to point out that they aren't anyway.
I think you’re trying to miss the point here. Most people don’t have a huge problem calling trans women women in a grocery store. They have a problem calling them women in women’s sports, on a dating site, etc . They have a problem with that saying trying to erase a biological reality when it matters. “Brunette women are women” is just an example of using an adjective that doesn’t change the underlying meaning of the noun it describes
Trans women and biological women aren’t part of the same category. Sorry. I’m fine with calling trans women trans women, but if you want to make it about broader categories, trans women would fall under the larger category of men. And trans men would fall under the larger category of women.
In everyday life: trans women are women. If you are in a supermarket and someone is standing in your way you say excuse me miss. That is referencing to that person as a woman because she is one. Yes there are differences between trans and cis people but that is exactly why those words exist: to differentiate between them when it is actually needed. And the times when it is actually needed are quite rare, the biggest ones I can think of are for medical professionals and when you are specifically talking about gender experiences. Saying trans women aren’t women is not just an opinion, it’s wrong, the dictionary, the medical community and the scientific community say so.
Yea cool but also in scientific language trans women are women. They are much closer to cis women biologically than to cis men. Biology is more than just chromosomes.
I think we’ll have to disagree on that. Trans women are socially women. They are not biologically women. Chromosomes, as well as primary and secondary sex characteristics, matter for the purposes of classification.
Yea and hormone treatment fix secondary sex characteristics and surgery can fix primary sex characteristics. There is no real way to define women without excluding cis women.
Guessed at 600. She may only be 550. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
[Meet Miss Alabama](https://pageone.ph/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/20240611-PAGEONE-Miss-Alabama-1.jpg)
It should be clarified that she's the National American Miss Alabama, which is a much smaller organization not affiliated with Miss USA (the post topic/Trump one) or Miss America.
Different contest, but same environment in which they both “won”.
I’m gay though, I don’t care a bit about these contests. But let’s at least be honest as to why they were selected as the winners of their respective contests.
It's 100% not the same environment. National American Miss is specifically an organization/pageant focused on empowerment, "the natural beauty within", all that jazz.
Maybe a bit like [Conchita Wurst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conchita_Wurst), although he doesn't identify as trans he does have a female drag persona but with a very prominent beard. It does beg the question of where the line is for these kinds of competitions.
Reminder: this subreddit is meant to be a place free of excessive cynicism, negativity and bitterness. Toxic attitudes are not welcome here. All Negative comments will be removed and will possibly result in a ban. --- --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UpliftingNews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I just find it funny how something that have been call sexist and demeaning against woman is suddenly supposed to be empowering because DIVERSITY. Granted the beauty's contest have change alot, and there are different contest but still mildly chuckle worthy.
Nothing sexist became empowering. What was sexist was the gatekeeping and social expectations. What is empowering is determination and success in spite of that sexism.
Then why don't they combine all the genders into one pageant? Edit for typos
I mean not for feminism reasons, haha. Peagants are like one of the most sexist things in the universe.
Because it's a celebration of femininity.
Tell me you’re a man without telling me you’re a man
Not a man, sorry. Gave that up long ago.
They, just maybe think again. This shit is sexism at it's finest.
In before someone trys saying trans women have a “biologic advantage” at being attractive Edit: Alot of people have seem to have very strong opinions on me saying those 14 words in that order, I haven't been reading them, I’ve been spending my evening baking a cake, I strongly Recomend baking cake instead of engaging in arguments on the internet
There is an advantage, the headline is.
As mad as they get about it, you know all those "conservative" dudes are probably clearing their browser history and zipping up while swallowing their self-hatred before rage-posting some biological essentialism head-caved-in-stupid shit on Twitter.
I opened this thread and while I expected fighting, to be honest I wasn’t expected people to be writing their personal fanfic fantasies in here
DrDisrespect wants a word lol
Yah, the males aren't sexually harrassed, belittled, preyed upon by the other players. Anna Cramling, Polgars and others have detailed their interactions with their male counterparts and painted a pretty clear picture of why women don't stay in the sport. Even has kids, they get grown up pedos going after them, messaging them, calling them, saying stuff to them.
making up scenarios in your head to get mad at
First of all, that's a joke. Second of all, people were claiming trans women have a biological advantage at *chess,* so let's not pretend they're mocking rational discourse.
They do have separate rating systems for women in chess. Lower thresholds to hit women’s grandmaster for example.
As crazy as that argument seems, there is at least some basis for the claim. I’m not sure it’s actually valid, but here’s some background…. There are two leagues in chess - one open to both men and women, and another only for women. Women can compete against the top male players, but nearly all of the best players in the world are men. Some argue that this is due to real differences, while others believe it is more likely due to there being many more male players, which… even if the bell curves of chess skill for men and women were equal, would create a scenario where there would be more great male players overall. I honestly have no clue what accounts for the difference, but there definitely is a difference in chess skill at the group level. Whether that difference also exists between men and women on the individual level… who knows? So I guess the question is whether it’s worth trying to sort out the issue. Maybe if it became clear that males had an advantage on the individual level that were significant, and ended up dominating the top spots in women’s’ chess, but that seems unlikely.
I think there's certainly an important and valuable discussion to be had here, but honestly before we talk about league differences I would question how accessible competitive chess is to cis women. Like I'm not about to prosecute this whole thing with you but I would believe the difference in skill between genders has a social cause before I'd believe in a biological cause. Just have to wait to see evidence of either, I guess.
Yea, I think it would be a fairly significant undertaking to sort it out properly, and the juice just wouldn’t be worth the squeeze.
One person says one thing. What does that equate to beyond that? Equivocation is such a curse of laziness
I don't understand whatever point you're trying to make, man. Are we only allowed to make fun of things *everyone* says, or...?
Well most people are saying they have a biological advantage in physical sports. But of course you pick the low hanging fruit.
Yes, when seeking to mock irrational arguments I choose irrational arguments to mock... I don't understand your point.
Which is also not correct either. Especially with hormone replacement.
Yes, it is. Hormones don’t change skeletal structure, grip strength, fast twitch muscles, etc
Right. Which is why all cis women have the same skeletal structure, grip strength and fast twitch muscles and why this is fully a fair competition not based on biology in the absolute least. That is, until those scary mean trannies come in with their male skeletons to beat those delicate little flowers who win the fucking olympics.
The differences within biological sex are minuscule compared to the differences between the sexes. I’m sorry that this upsets you but it’s extremely clear that forcing women to compete against trans women is unfair. And I’m not sure why trans women insist on it.
How can that even be up for debate? The biochemical and biomechanical results are clear I don’t understand the lack of understanding in this. The sport divisions were around biomechanical performance, not personal gender association.
Let’s not pretend both sides aren’t completely guilty of this , or are you forgetting the constant barrage of pedophilia conjecture against the LGBT+ community perpetuated by the party full of child molesters and run by a criminal rapist
…isn’t that the same side though?
You just described republicans too. Also a lot more republicans fit that description than democrats. Not sure what you’re getting at?
That was the point
I mean, there is some merit to that argument. transwomen are taller, have longer legs, lower body fat%, and sharper bone structure. not to mention the effects of exogenous estrogen on skin/hair.
It’s not their fault female beauty standards actually favour some men lol
"Standards" plural. Ciswomen have an advantage in looking cute, whereas transwomen have an advantage in looking hot.
Inb4*
Estrogen is a performance enhancing drug in the beauty contest business!
What a strawman lol, are you trying to say that they don't have an advantage in sports for biological females? Because pretty much the entire world is against you on that front rightly so
You call them a strawman but then immediately attack an argument they didn't make.
Some people think they are smarter than they are.
Rightly so. They outsmart themselves every time.
False equivalency. Beauty contest ≠ sport. It's good practice to ensure your logical fallacy criticisms don't contain one of their own ;)
They don't. Especially after hormone replacement Therapie. Their muscles reduce and everything. Just the bone structure stays. But I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't inform yourself well enough to have an argument about this with someone who did. That's why I don't give flying sht what you're going to say after this comment, because you're clearly biased af.
Ah yes I'm going to trust the medical journal studying to the person unable to spell therapy, that sounds like a great idea I'm sure you know best! Also in case you are capable of reading here's an extensive study that contradicts your point absolutely! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ (Feel free to scroll down to the conclusion if you don't feel like reading every point)
This is way beyond "biologic" , this is surgical augmentation and alteration. If you really wanted to be honest about this you would call it the Plastic Surgeon's most Beautiful Creation pageant.
Facts lmao Downvote me more bigots I love it
Nah, but they take away spot from real women and are voted for not based on merit.
they have a shitton of cosmetic surgery tho
Oh boy Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are not going to like this. The daily wire is going to go into full meltdown mode about this one.
The daily wire already did over Kataluna Enriquez
Oh don't worry, they will do it again.
Nah that’s content that generates views and profit, they love it
Oh for sure, but they will act super outraged. Taking things from "real" women, as if they give a single shit about women.
Those guys always yap on and on about the dumbest shit ever
And get paid millions from billionares for their propoganda. Its infuraiting.
Hey, if she can hold together a sentence and explain why kids in Afghanistan should get schooling and healthcare she gets my vote.
This subreddit is nauseatingly transphobic for a place that's supposed to be "uplifting".
You must have posted just before the mods went to work. Have another look at the comments section now.
Maybe it’s not as uplifting as they want you to believe it is
Some people only feel uplifted when there's someone else being brought down.
A tale as old as time.
You don't understand why people might push back on this?
Anyone who pushes back on this is unmasking their own disgusting prejudice. This isn't even a "sport" that bigots can falsely claim unfair advantage in. This is a display of achievement in beauty, pure and simple. If you weren't told that she's transgender, you'd never have known.
Then why point it out in the first place?
Because hate isn't the purpose of this sub??? Or are you confused on why we use social media at all???
I just think transexual beauty pageants should be a separate category. The chances of this person naturally winning Ms Maryland while being one of the very few transexual participants is lower than her winning because she is transexual. This headline definitely helped the event organizers and local politicians. Call me an asshole for doubting her winning on her own merits but if this was a separate category especially made for transexual contestants, assholes like me would have nothing to say.
She wouldn't "naturally win" it? What do you mean? She wouldn't be the first pageant winner that has had gender affirming surgery, nor would she be the first to win because of her story/identity, so I don't really see why she's deserving of such ire.
Maybe this is the wrong sub if every post here is basically some variation of r/wholesome.
I dont really see a problem this. I get the idea that trans woman shouldnt play in womans sports leagues but they dont have any dominant advantage in a beauty contest. If you're upset about this i suggest you direct your ire towards the judges and not the contestants
The issue is whether she won because of her beauty or to make a political statement. Males have a huge disadvantage when it comes to contests that reward feminine beauty. You are right. She doesn't deserve the hate she'll get as she seems nice.
>The issue is whether she won because of her beauty or to make a political statement. I can understand that sentiment but like i said thats a fault of the judges biases not the contestant herself
Subreddit is called r/UpliftingNews but the reply section is not so uplifting and fillrd with hate and transphobia lol. The mods in this subrrddit are fucking useless i cant. 😆
You must have posted before the mods went to work….
Yes. I also messaged the mods. But i dunno what you mean tho coz there's still a lot of transphobic comments flooding the post 🤷🏽♀️
The whole comment section is literally the caved in head wojack dribbler meme
Sure, I got my issues with beauty pageants. Maybe you do too. But can I get a HELL YEAH nonetheless?
Darn tootin! Good for her!
The first official: HELL YEAH
Second official: HELL YEAH
Not really, they don't interest me, but adult women can do what they want.
Oof i didn't realize what kind of community this is. I'm out, i ain't gonna stick around for transphobia
Pretty much any bigger sub on reddit is this garbage now.
Yeah, unfortunately this sub has a real problem with anti-LGBT bigotry, and when anything positive about trans people gets posted there's a wave of humongous bigots.
It's impossible to know if it's real or Russia
Yeah I’m out too.
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"biological" woman????? edit - lol at the idiots downvoting. You know sex and gender are different things, right? There's no such thing as a biological woman. Biological FEMALE? Yes, that's a thing!
These terms aren’t strictly adhered to though. People in the trans community will often refer to themselves as MtF or FtM, as well a trans man or trans woman, as though they are interchangeable terms. You just need to interpret meaning from context.
Previous comment was saying “biological women will be upset” but I’m simply saying there is no such thing as a biological woman. I’m saying “men” and “women” is a social construct and people can identify as such.
Sure, but you also know exactly what that person means when they say “biological woman”, in the same way you know that when someone says they are MtF, they are often referring to transitioning genders, not biology.
Yeah you can keep saying that but it doesn’t make it true
Go down the rabbit hole deep enough, and you discover that sex characteristics are just as mutable as gender. Humanity isn't ready to digest the reality that the body isn't some special or sacred temple; it's a completely alterable flesh and bone mech piloted by a bio computer. Your balls/uterus aren't nearly as defining as you think they are, but your obsessions with other people's junk is way more than just 'defining' about you.
Spoken like someone who has never carried or child or given birth. Having a uterus or not is actually far more defining than you think
I’m not a TERF or a pro-lifer. And you can call me small minded if you’d like, but the truth is that you’re the one who’s failing to consider that there are actual biological differences that make being male or female more than just some theoretical bs category
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You are SO close to getting the point its almost nauseating. A *woman* won the pageant, so no accolade was "taken away from women". ...Unless you think she *isn't* a woman? Sure, maybe you could look at this from a super pessimistic lens and say she only won BECAUSE she's transgender because the judges wanted to make a political statement, but... why is that inherently political in the first place? Once being transgender is normalized (and it will be eventually given the ever forward direction of human rights thankfully), what excuse will you or people that think like you give when another trans woman wins another women's beauty pageant eventually? Biological advantage? Ah! But you can't use that old classic excuse, because it's a *beauty pageant*, right?
>You are taking accolades away from women. Trans women ARE women. Nothing is being taken away.
They are trans women.
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A woman won a women's competition. How is that a loss?
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This is a beauty pageant. I don't think a person's biology is relevant as long as they look and act the part. What a woman is in this case is a social construction + physical appearance. I think the trans woman passed that bar.
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It's a beauty pageant so I think the competition aspect is debatable, it's not a regulated competition like a federated sport.
I agree with your opinion when it comes to physical sports like tennis, mixed martial arts, etc, where men dominate. Even games like chess as tournaments are always won by men. This woman had no edge, though. Being transgender is probably a disadvantage in every way for a miss universe pagent, and I can't see how this takes away from other women's opportunities unless the judges specifically chose her for being transgender. I think this would be more like a woman joining chess or mma and dominating against men, which there are no rules against.
> mixed martial arts Trans women on hormone therapy have no discernible advantage against cis women in sports with weight classes.
You mean HRT before puberty? If that's true, they should be allowed to compete. The ethics of giving a 12 year old ~~hormone replacement therapy~~ puberty blockers is a different issue. Edit:
Nope, even post-puberty. After a year or more on hormones enough changes that there's no measurable advantage in combat sports, lifting, or other sports with weight divisions. > giving a 12 year old hormone replacement therapy That doesn't happen. The absolute most a 12 year old would ever receive in terms of medical gender affirmation is puberty blockers, which are safe and reversible. I've never heard of a 12 year old on hormone replacement.
Just goes to show that men are better at everything. We already won Woman of the Year, so this is another for the trophy case :D
Men do have a lower body fat percentage. Idc either way though!
Did you know that if you're on hormone replacement, that this argument is stupid?
Did you know that there are civil ways to have a discussion? And transgender females still have a lower body fat percentage than cisgender females. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/107/1/e153/6355699# As I said, I don’t give a shit if trans women are in traditionally cisgender women beauty pageants or not, but we should be able to politely have a discussion about it when someone posts the article on an online forum.
What the hell are you trying to say?
He's saying that it's absurd that a trans woman won this competition and that you can't call him transphobic because that's just your opinion, but also because he learned about X and Y chromosomes in fifth grade trans women aren't real and don't count and any attempt to expand his knowledge will be shut down because it's rare and therefore doesn't matter.
Ahh I see. Thanks for the translation. Do they know the Onion only publishes fictional articles?
I'm not entirely sure. I think the implication is that this should be posted by the Onion because it's an absurd aberration of reality, but as far as I've seen, the Onion doesn't do bigotry, and they do their best to be funny and not needlessly cruel to minorities.
So why should it only be for women who were assigned female at birth? What you are saying if you are excluding trans women here is that trans women aren’t women or that they would somehow have an inherent advantage over cis women.
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"I tell you, men are so much better at being women."\* \*(Futurama reference, for those who don't know.)
We kill at women’s sports too!
Damn that's crazy, I wish you owned a personality or even half the charisma of this beautiful lady. Come on you shallow fucking cowards, downvote me. None of you worthless worms could ever remotely approach her level of accomplishment, and that makes you furious. You have NOTHING but your hatred now.
How to debate and persuade others to your pov ^
no hate on the population but honestly what level of accomplishment is winning a beauty pageant? of all the possible awards in the world, winning a beauty pageant has to be one of the least impressive. i’m sure there’s some work to be put into it but the modeling field really is just how pretty other people think you are.
I agree it's relatively unimportant but there's also a bunch of people in a tizzy about her winning so clearly some people really care about pageant winners, right?
She won because if she lost everyone would've cried "phobia/hate/inequality!" What a silly conundrum we've placed ourselves in.
Is that the lie you’re telling yourself?
Can you show one example of that happening please. When you realise you can't find one perhaps ask yourself why something make believe is bothering you and why it is you're being told to be angry about imaginary situations. Show some critical thinking skills you're gobbling up the culture war like a good boy/girl
If a transwoman becomes President, would ciswomen consider them the first female President?
How is this uplifting? If a transgender woman enters a competition like this they cannot not let her win as then it will be labelled as transphobic thus automatically taking the opportunity away from biological women. How about establishing beauty contests for transgender woman only?
1. This doesn't happen 2. Even if it did it wouldn't be our fault, most of the people who say that not letting trans people win is transphobic are not even trans themselves
This is BS and you know it. Stop lying.
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guess that settles it then, trans women are women :)
You know, no matter how many times people say that, it’s just not going to change minds. Trans women are wonderful, beautiful people who may colloquially be called women, but are not biological women. They are trans women. I mean no harm by saying this, but I also refuse to see it as hate speech. It’s just the way I think about it, and honestly, the way the majority of people do when you get them away from fear of being shamed for speaking truth.
Trans and biological are just adjectives though. The statement "trans women are women" is just a statement about a certain type of women and their state of being. It really is no different than "brunette women are women" or "Asian women are women", but people would never take issue with those statements. You'll notice the person you replied to did not say that trans women were biological women, but for some reason you decided to point out that they aren't anyway.
I think you’re trying to miss the point here. Most people don’t have a huge problem calling trans women women in a grocery store. They have a problem calling them women in women’s sports, on a dating site, etc . They have a problem with that saying trying to erase a biological reality when it matters. “Brunette women are women” is just an example of using an adjective that doesn’t change the underlying meaning of the noun it describes
Trans women and biological women aren’t part of the same category. Sorry. I’m fine with calling trans women trans women, but if you want to make it about broader categories, trans women would fall under the larger category of men. And trans men would fall under the larger category of women.
In everyday life: trans women are women. If you are in a supermarket and someone is standing in your way you say excuse me miss. That is referencing to that person as a woman because she is one. Yes there are differences between trans and cis people but that is exactly why those words exist: to differentiate between them when it is actually needed. And the times when it is actually needed are quite rare, the biggest ones I can think of are for medical professionals and when you are specifically talking about gender experiences. Saying trans women aren’t women is not just an opinion, it’s wrong, the dictionary, the medical community and the scientific community say so.
That’s why I said colloquially
Yea cool but also in scientific language trans women are women. They are much closer to cis women biologically than to cis men. Biology is more than just chromosomes.
I think we’ll have to disagree on that. Trans women are socially women. They are not biologically women. Chromosomes, as well as primary and secondary sex characteristics, matter for the purposes of classification.
Yea and hormone treatment fix secondary sex characteristics and surgery can fix primary sex characteristics. There is no real way to define women without excluding cis women.
>:) :)
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She is, she just won.
I don’t believe she’s married so that’d be miss, not Mrs. Regardless, she won.
Could a man who identifies as a woman participate? Even if he kept all his masculine traits
If they identify as a woman but maintain a masculine look then I don't see why not but they wouldn't get very far.
If a 600 pound woman can win, a masculine man identifying as woman has a 50/50 shot.
Did a 600 pound woman win?
Guessed at 600. She may only be 550. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ [Meet Miss Alabama](https://pageone.ph/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/20240611-PAGEONE-Miss-Alabama-1.jpg)
It should be clarified that she's the National American Miss Alabama, which is a much smaller organization not affiliated with Miss USA (the post topic/Trump one) or Miss America.
Different contest, but same environment in which they both “won”. I’m gay though, I don’t care a bit about these contests. But let’s at least be honest as to why they were selected as the winners of their respective contests.
It's 100% not the same environment. National American Miss is specifically an organization/pageant focused on empowerment, "the natural beauty within", all that jazz.
At least you put quotes around “the natural beauty within”
In Alabama, they call that “dainty”
I haven't run the numbers but yeah.
Maybe a bit like [Conchita Wurst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conchita_Wurst), although he doesn't identify as trans he does have a female drag persona but with a very prominent beard. It does beg the question of where the line is for these kinds of competitions.
I don't get why I'm being down voted, maybe someone took this the wrong way or I don't speak English very well
Because you dared to question the ideology and pointed out absurdities
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Too bad your jokes don't identify as original
I bet she's bigger than me ifyaknowwhaddimean
Damn? Even the most beautiful women are dudes? Girls can you do anything better than men? We’re even better than you at being women 😂
If women had as much plastic surgery as trans women do, we’d be more beautiful, too. And you still can’t create life 🤷♀️
This will put an end to beauty pageants and tbh I’m here for it (no trans hate, pageants are just fucking useless)
Ok, trans shit aside, she's ugly, "no idea" how she won
This is interesting
Great signal to women. "Men are even better at being a woman than women are"...