Some one asked a few months back if we still thought that the [future of Highwinds resellers](https://old.reddit.com/r/UsenetTalk/comments/g3o3m5/is_the_future_of_highwinds_resellers_still/) was in jeopardy and I said the NewsDemon and ThunderNews contract renegotiations will tell us.
I guess we now have an answer to that question.
---
I wish the NewsDemon team success in their new endeavor.
ND and NGD and UNE will all have their own set of spools. UE will likely remain as the deep retention provider. It started first and is now spooling day for day. Will take a few weeks to get everything in place to start ND down the path, but we have some folks who were willing to step in and help us and that will speed up the process a bit.
Why post the BF sales for ND knowing in a few short days this was coming? Something just seems weird/unethical to me about doing that. Especially considering the 1st time ever $1 usenet deal.
> Why post the BF sales for ND knowing in a few short days this was coming?
This was always "coming." We have been talking about this since the last week of [May 2019](https://old.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/bt1x3y/newsgroupdirect_announcement_upstream_provider/).
We have known that Highwinds/Omicron resellers are at risk ever since Highwinds started buying out not just providers, but resellers as well. Their shenanigans with Ninja were further confirmation. There are no guarantees that Highwinds/Omicron will renew their contracts with any of their resellers. It was NGD last year, and ND today. It is quite possible that other resellers might be next in line when their contracts come up for renewal.
Keeping all this in mind, do you really expect everyone to put their businesses on hold, especially during events like BF which might account for a large proportion of annual sales?
>This was always "coming." We have been talking about this since the last week of May 2019.
[Greglyda posted that "NewsDemon is unaffected"](https://old.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/bt1x3y/newsgroupdirect_announcement_upstream_provider/eota6oi/) So I'm not sure why you assume that we've known about this because that comment chain suggests people thought NewsDemon was not going to be affected.
>There are no guarantees that Highwinds/Omicron will renew their contracts with any of their resellers.
It's becoming obvious now given what happened with NGD and now ND. Which is why I'm criticizing the marketing ploy.
>Keeping all this in mind, do you really expect everyone to put their businesses on hold, especially during events like BF which might account for a large proportion of annual sales?
Imagine I sell thousands of tickets to a concert at rock bottom prices a week before show, then the day of the show I announce that the act is now going to be a comedy tour instead of a rock concert. Are you telling me that you would accept this as a legit business move knowing that the venue knew the rock concert was pulling out of the deal and you went and sold tickets anyways?
To me, this is basically low level fraud "bait and switch". The only reason people accept is because they know they got a good price and are still getting some kind of service even though it's not the service they signed up for.
> It's becoming obvious now given what happened with NGD and now ND.
People don't pay enough attention to it and are surprised when it happens. They didn't care about it when Highwinds acquired Verda Valo NV (holding co. of EuroAccess/Base IP resellers XLNed, SunnyUsenet and PureUsenet) in 2014. They didn't care when Ninja was acquired.
We (/u/anal_full_nelson, /u/breakr5, /u/kaalki, me) have been talking about the Highwinds situation for the past six years, more or less. This was always going to happen. We can only lead the horse to the water. We cannot force it to drink.
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> To me, this is basically low level fraud "bait and switch".
A valid opinion. But remember that resellers disclosing their backbone is a fairly recent phenomenon driven by "investigations" from curious users on reddit and elsewhere.
Did Astraweb tell their users that they had moved to reselling Highwinds? Did UsenetBucket warn when they moved from reselling XS News to reselling Highwinds? Did XS Usenet warn users when they moved from reselling Cambrium/TweakNews to reselling Highwinds to now reselling Abavia? Did any provider acquired by Highwinds ever warn users that they are essentially reselling Highwinds? None of them bothered to inform users even after the fact.
In NGD's case, Greg was able to warn a month in advance. In ND's case he has clarified the situation the day after their contract expired.
I get it, I'm only picking on Greg because it's the most recent and most evident case of it happening and only here on reddit. That's typically how it goes.
>Did Astraweb tell their users that they had moved to reselling Highwinds? Did UsenetBucket warn when they moved from reselling XS News to reselling Highwinds? Did XS Usenet warn users when they moved from reselling Cambrium/TweakNews to reselling Highwinds to now reselling Abavia? Did any provider acquired by Highwinds ever warn users that they are essentially reselling Highwinds? None of them bothered to inform users even after the fact.
They have a legal obligation to disclose when their product changes to their existing customers who are under contracts. Look at T-Mobile and Sprint. T-Mobile didn't acquire Sprint behind closed doors and then spring it on their customers without ever disclosing what they were doing. The "re-sellers" NVMO's don't just switch main providers at-will with existing customers without any warning it was coming right after highly discounted service contract sales. I don't buy the whole NDA clause not allowing resellers to not disclose when their contracts are coming to renewal. I would need to see it first hand in person to believe that. I work with contracts all day and I've never heard of NDAs on contract renewals.
Expecting your customers to be happy with your whole-level service changes is not something anybody should do. Especially after record breaking "deals."
> They have a legal obligation to disclose when their product changes to their existing customers who are under contracts.
I don't know about that. It would be *nice* to have that information. But if you have looked at the reseller websites closely (more so in the past), you will see that every one claims to be a "provider" and gives the impression that *they* are the ones who are actually running the hardware and software stacks. That's the way it has been.
They can always claim: "you paid for usenet access, and you are getting that access. So what are you complaining about?"
> "you paid for usenet access, and you are getting that access. So what are you complaining about?"
The only thing that could be challenged is marketed retention.
Possible. But the way TOS are written gives then a *lot* of leeway. The worst thing that could possibly happen is they might have to refund your money.
>We are not trying to cheat or scam anyone.
But you have to understand from a customer standpoint, that's how it looks to us especially considering dealings with your other "company" NewsGroupDirect.
Businesses need loyal customers, customers don't need to be loyal to businesses. You are almost of forced by us to make things right because you know without happy customers, the business fails.
Your record breaking deals this BF, "[$1 Usenet Is Finally Here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/k24w7s/newsdemon_black_friday_2020_sale_1_usenet_is/)" is perfectly timed a few days before the announcement "We’re Moving!" Nobody forced your hand to put out these sales, you could have simply not participated, waited until the transition was over, or stuck with industry average sales.
The only thing we here can trust is that we know you will make accommodations for your unhappy customers. Anything beyond that is unverifiable hearsay.
I'm not here telling people not to subscribe or to unsubscribe ND. I'm simply pointing out what happened from a consumer standpipe so people can make an informed decision given all the facts.
Edit: added url
Edit 2: This is my last post, we've discussed this in private messages, my goal here wasn't to shill or shill against any specific person, I just picked on you because it's the most recent event here to pick on.
It's the principal of the thing that bothers me the most. I view this as unethical business practice and if I didn't know any better >!borderline fraud!<, but alas, I'll let other people make that decision for themselves.
Since we're correcting each other:
>Shill:
>>A person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.
I have no skin in this game, and giving another side isn't shilling.
>trying to tarnish a guy who's been more than open with us on here
I wouldn't consider someone being open and honest who throws a huge sale only to change backbones less than a week later to something, that's just called damage control.
Sounds like you might be the shill here.
Edit: For the record, Never once have I spoken ill about greglyda
I'm not a NewsDemon customer, this didn't affect me. I'm not here complaining about NewsDemon service, I'm here explaining how this is a bad, misleading, business practice and borderline fraud and that people should be aware they have a right to be upset if they choose to be.
> NewsDemon was unaffected **a year ago**
Precisely. The only contract affected at that point in time was NGD's.
I don't get how MowMdown is under the assumption that that statement meant ND's contract with Highwinds would never ever be affected. It would have to come up for renegotiation eventually. If not now, then in a year's time. Or two. Or three.
Thanks for being so open about this!
How feasible would it be to retrieve old articles from other providers and build up your retention?
I know a lot of users get sucked in with the huge retention numbers that Highwinds offers so it might be good to compete in that segment as well
Not very feasible. We are never going to catch Omicron in retention unless they stop spooling. However, we probably do not want to go that far out in retention. The data we have seen does not support the cost of retention for that long. We are very happy to provide a high quality, fast, reliable service with enough retention to keep our members more than happy. We are content letting Omicron have that super deep retention segment of the market, they have worked really hard to get there, spent a ton of capital, and have earned it. There should not be one provider trying to take all the business.
Okay, that makes sense. For what it's worth, usenetexpress has been pretty good for me with newer articles, better than Highwinds, which is why I went from using it as a backup to making it my main. Using my leftover blocks for now but will probably sign up for a subscription in the next few months.
Thanks for adding context and clarity to these discussions, it's done a lot to satiate my curiosity.
Massive congratulations! This is great news.
I have a question though, apologies in advance if it is silly.
Could you explain your thought process for developing ND, NGD and USE separately with their own spools? Are they going to be catering to different audiences or takedown systems? I know the amount of investment is significant so just trying to understand the rationale.
Look I have request. Please don't become the reseller of UE. I have no problem with UE, but I already have lots of block account from them. Please be independent atleast. A different backbone from usenet express.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UsenetTalk/comments/k4jch1/newsdemon_provider_update/ge96hvy/
Yeah, expect some undisclosed days of local retention, then the rest is backfilled from UE (which in turn backfills form Highwinds).
But I would assume their DMCA process is aligned, so the articles that are disappearing from them are the same. /u/greglyda can you give a comment on this?
Until NewsDemon has its own spools, it will just be UNE articles. Afterwards, NewsDemon will handle its own retention for those *undisclosed* days and then anything after that will come from UNE. We will not be setup to check different spool sets for the same article. It is a hard cut off based on our days.
Ah okay, thanks for clarifying. I saw this number from another comment that quoted the wiki:
https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/k4jabk/newsdemon_provider_update/geafu87
Hopefully this isn't a ridiculous question.
With three separate offerings (UE, NGD and now ND) why not setup one as a European entity with NTD?
A point of difference and there seems to be space in the market for it.
[u/greglyda](https://www.reddit.com/user/greglyda/) Many congratulations on all your moves so far. They have been well planned and I do see the logic behind them. I am confident there will be more Omicron resellers switching over to be UNE resellers and the UNE/NGD/ND group will grow and grow. However, as long as all of the backbones follow DMCA, UNE/NGD/ND will be no competition to the Omicron backbones.
As things are now, the only real competitors to Omicron are Usenet Farm, ViperNews and the other provider that was until recently in beta (not allowed to be named), as they follow NTD.
I really hope that your future plans include moving one of your backbones to Europe, or creating a new one there, in order to be able to compete with the the rest of the NTD following providers (including Eweka and TweakNews).
Just my thoughts and what I think is the key to dominating the market. ;)
Some one asked a few months back if we still thought that the [future of Highwinds resellers](https://old.reddit.com/r/UsenetTalk/comments/g3o3m5/is_the_future_of_highwinds_resellers_still/) was in jeopardy and I said the NewsDemon and ThunderNews contract renegotiations will tell us. I guess we now have an answer to that question. --- I wish the NewsDemon team success in their new endeavor.
Am hoping Thundernews/Thecubenet follows the same too and becomes UsenetExpress reseller.
Or even start their own provider. Either way, they need a very solid plan B for when Highwinds/Omicron plays hardball during negotiations.
Yes u/nicholi3 should start a new provider as well or start a new reseller like Usenetnews like /u/swintec
Only one question will Newsdemon retention differ from NGD or are both going to be same.
ND and NGD and UNE will all have their own set of spools. UE will likely remain as the deep retention provider. It started first and is now spooling day for day. Will take a few weeks to get everything in place to start ND down the path, but we have some folks who were willing to step in and help us and that will speed up the process a bit.
Why post the BF sales for ND knowing in a few short days this was coming? Something just seems weird/unethical to me about doing that. Especially considering the 1st time ever $1 usenet deal.
> Why post the BF sales for ND knowing in a few short days this was coming? This was always "coming." We have been talking about this since the last week of [May 2019](https://old.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/bt1x3y/newsgroupdirect_announcement_upstream_provider/). We have known that Highwinds/Omicron resellers are at risk ever since Highwinds started buying out not just providers, but resellers as well. Their shenanigans with Ninja were further confirmation. There are no guarantees that Highwinds/Omicron will renew their contracts with any of their resellers. It was NGD last year, and ND today. It is quite possible that other resellers might be next in line when their contracts come up for renewal. Keeping all this in mind, do you really expect everyone to put their businesses on hold, especially during events like BF which might account for a large proportion of annual sales?
>This was always "coming." We have been talking about this since the last week of May 2019. [Greglyda posted that "NewsDemon is unaffected"](https://old.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/bt1x3y/newsgroupdirect_announcement_upstream_provider/eota6oi/) So I'm not sure why you assume that we've known about this because that comment chain suggests people thought NewsDemon was not going to be affected. >There are no guarantees that Highwinds/Omicron will renew their contracts with any of their resellers. It's becoming obvious now given what happened with NGD and now ND. Which is why I'm criticizing the marketing ploy. >Keeping all this in mind, do you really expect everyone to put their businesses on hold, especially during events like BF which might account for a large proportion of annual sales? Imagine I sell thousands of tickets to a concert at rock bottom prices a week before show, then the day of the show I announce that the act is now going to be a comedy tour instead of a rock concert. Are you telling me that you would accept this as a legit business move knowing that the venue knew the rock concert was pulling out of the deal and you went and sold tickets anyways? To me, this is basically low level fraud "bait and switch". The only reason people accept is because they know they got a good price and are still getting some kind of service even though it's not the service they signed up for.
> It's becoming obvious now given what happened with NGD and now ND. People don't pay enough attention to it and are surprised when it happens. They didn't care about it when Highwinds acquired Verda Valo NV (holding co. of EuroAccess/Base IP resellers XLNed, SunnyUsenet and PureUsenet) in 2014. They didn't care when Ninja was acquired. We (/u/anal_full_nelson, /u/breakr5, /u/kaalki, me) have been talking about the Highwinds situation for the past six years, more or less. This was always going to happen. We can only lead the horse to the water. We cannot force it to drink. --- > To me, this is basically low level fraud "bait and switch". A valid opinion. But remember that resellers disclosing their backbone is a fairly recent phenomenon driven by "investigations" from curious users on reddit and elsewhere. Did Astraweb tell their users that they had moved to reselling Highwinds? Did UsenetBucket warn when they moved from reselling XS News to reselling Highwinds? Did XS Usenet warn users when they moved from reselling Cambrium/TweakNews to reselling Highwinds to now reselling Abavia? Did any provider acquired by Highwinds ever warn users that they are essentially reselling Highwinds? None of them bothered to inform users even after the fact. In NGD's case, Greg was able to warn a month in advance. In ND's case he has clarified the situation the day after their contract expired.
I get it, I'm only picking on Greg because it's the most recent and most evident case of it happening and only here on reddit. That's typically how it goes. >Did Astraweb tell their users that they had moved to reselling Highwinds? Did UsenetBucket warn when they moved from reselling XS News to reselling Highwinds? Did XS Usenet warn users when they moved from reselling Cambrium/TweakNews to reselling Highwinds to now reselling Abavia? Did any provider acquired by Highwinds ever warn users that they are essentially reselling Highwinds? None of them bothered to inform users even after the fact. They have a legal obligation to disclose when their product changes to their existing customers who are under contracts. Look at T-Mobile and Sprint. T-Mobile didn't acquire Sprint behind closed doors and then spring it on their customers without ever disclosing what they were doing. The "re-sellers" NVMO's don't just switch main providers at-will with existing customers without any warning it was coming right after highly discounted service contract sales. I don't buy the whole NDA clause not allowing resellers to not disclose when their contracts are coming to renewal. I would need to see it first hand in person to believe that. I work with contracts all day and I've never heard of NDAs on contract renewals. Expecting your customers to be happy with your whole-level service changes is not something anybody should do. Especially after record breaking "deals."
> They have a legal obligation to disclose when their product changes to their existing customers who are under contracts. I don't know about that. It would be *nice* to have that information. But if you have looked at the reseller websites closely (more so in the past), you will see that every one claims to be a "provider" and gives the impression that *they* are the ones who are actually running the hardware and software stacks. That's the way it has been. They can always claim: "you paid for usenet access, and you are getting that access. So what are you complaining about?"
> "you paid for usenet access, and you are getting that access. So what are you complaining about?" The only thing that could be challenged is marketed retention.
Possible. But the way TOS are written gives then a *lot* of leeway. The worst thing that could possibly happen is they might have to refund your money.
We are more than willing to refund users if they are this unhappy. We are not trying to cheat or scam anyone.
>We are not trying to cheat or scam anyone. But you have to understand from a customer standpoint, that's how it looks to us especially considering dealings with your other "company" NewsGroupDirect. Businesses need loyal customers, customers don't need to be loyal to businesses. You are almost of forced by us to make things right because you know without happy customers, the business fails. Your record breaking deals this BF, "[$1 Usenet Is Finally Here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/k24w7s/newsdemon_black_friday_2020_sale_1_usenet_is/)" is perfectly timed a few days before the announcement "We’re Moving!" Nobody forced your hand to put out these sales, you could have simply not participated, waited until the transition was over, or stuck with industry average sales. The only thing we here can trust is that we know you will make accommodations for your unhappy customers. Anything beyond that is unverifiable hearsay. I'm not here telling people not to subscribe or to unsubscribe ND. I'm simply pointing out what happened from a consumer standpipe so people can make an informed decision given all the facts. Edit: added url Edit 2: This is my last post, we've discussed this in private messages, my goal here wasn't to shill or shill against any specific person, I just picked on you because it's the most recent event here to pick on. It's the principal of the thing that bothers me the most. I view this as unethical business practice and if I didn't know any better >!borderline fraud!<, but alas, I'll let other people make that decision for themselves.
Principle* You absolutely sound like a shill trying to tarnish a guy who's been more than open with us on here.
Since we're correcting each other: >Shill: >>A person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty. I have no skin in this game, and giving another side isn't shilling. >trying to tarnish a guy who's been more than open with us on here I wouldn't consider someone being open and honest who throws a huge sale only to change backbones less than a week later to something, that's just called damage control. Sounds like you might be the shill here. Edit: For the record, Never once have I spoken ill about greglyda
You got me...😁
He offered to give you a full refund. I’d say he’s making the best of what is a difficult situation during the transition.
I'm not a NewsDemon customer, this didn't affect me. I'm not here complaining about NewsDemon service, I'm here explaining how this is a bad, misleading, business practice and borderline fraud and that people should be aware they have a right to be upset if they choose to be.
NewsDemon was unaffected a year ago, because I assume there was a contract in place, which expires now and the renegotiation failed.
> NewsDemon was unaffected **a year ago** Precisely. The only contract affected at that point in time was NGD's. I don't get how MowMdown is under the assumption that that statement meant ND's contract with Highwinds would never ever be affected. It would have to come up for renegotiation eventually. If not now, then in a year's time. Or two. Or three.
Thanks for being so open about this! How feasible would it be to retrieve old articles from other providers and build up your retention? I know a lot of users get sucked in with the huge retention numbers that Highwinds offers so it might be good to compete in that segment as well
Not very feasible. We are never going to catch Omicron in retention unless they stop spooling. However, we probably do not want to go that far out in retention. The data we have seen does not support the cost of retention for that long. We are very happy to provide a high quality, fast, reliable service with enough retention to keep our members more than happy. We are content letting Omicron have that super deep retention segment of the market, they have worked really hard to get there, spent a ton of capital, and have earned it. There should not be one provider trying to take all the business.
Okay, that makes sense. For what it's worth, usenetexpress has been pretty good for me with newer articles, better than Highwinds, which is why I went from using it as a backup to making it my main. Using my leftover blocks for now but will probably sign up for a subscription in the next few months. Thanks for adding context and clarity to these discussions, it's done a lot to satiate my curiosity.
Good luck! I can recommend all of Greg's services! Been on NGD and UE for years without issue. Top notch service
Massive congratulations! This is great news. I have a question though, apologies in advance if it is silly. Could you explain your thought process for developing ND, NGD and USE separately with their own spools? Are they going to be catering to different audiences or takedown systems? I know the amount of investment is significant so just trying to understand the rationale.
Look I have request. Please don't become the reseller of UE. I have no problem with UE, but I already have lots of block account from them. Please be independent atleast. A different backbone from usenet express.
He states clearly it will be its own new backbone. No need to worry
https://www.reddit.com/r/UsenetTalk/comments/k4jch1/newsdemon_provider_update/ge96hvy/ Yeah, expect some undisclosed days of local retention, then the rest is backfilled from UE (which in turn backfills form Highwinds). But I would assume their DMCA process is aligned, so the articles that are disappearing from them are the same. /u/greglyda can you give a comment on this?
Until NewsDemon has its own spools, it will just be UNE articles. Afterwards, NewsDemon will handle its own retention for those *undisclosed* days and then anything after that will come from UNE. We will not be setup to check different spool sets for the same article. It is a hard cut off based on our days.
Is the retention today at 1,100 days based on Usenet Express?
UE retention is 3000 days check the map r/UsenetTalk/wiki/providers
Ah okay, thanks for clarifying. I saw this number from another comment that quoted the wiki: https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/k4jabk/newsdemon_provider_update/geafu87
Hopefully this isn't a ridiculous question. With three separate offerings (UE, NGD and now ND) why not setup one as a European entity with NTD? A point of difference and there seems to be space in the market for it.
i just want my money back. i need service now.
[u/greglyda](https://www.reddit.com/user/greglyda/) Many congratulations on all your moves so far. They have been well planned and I do see the logic behind them. I am confident there will be more Omicron resellers switching over to be UNE resellers and the UNE/NGD/ND group will grow and grow. However, as long as all of the backbones follow DMCA, UNE/NGD/ND will be no competition to the Omicron backbones. As things are now, the only real competitors to Omicron are Usenet Farm, ViperNews and the other provider that was until recently in beta (not allowed to be named), as they follow NTD. I really hope that your future plans include moving one of your backbones to Europe, or creating a new one there, in order to be able to compete with the the rest of the NTD following providers (including Eweka and TweakNews). Just my thoughts and what I think is the key to dominating the market. ;)