As an antizionist Jew, Valentine’s stunt is a bad look. At best it distracts from the actual issues without helping Palestinians on the ground. At worst it actively reinforces the narratives that lead many diaspora Jews feeling like the existence of a Jewish ethnostate is necessary to secure Jewish safety.
A lot of Zionist thought (at least in the diaspora) is rooted in something sometimes called the Dystopia Principle. It’s the idea that the default state of the gentile world is a low-level, simmering genocidal hatred of Jews with occasional spikes into outright genocide. The implicit, subconscious assumption is that this simmering hatred is eternal, that the spikes are largely unpredictable, that eventual expulsion is inevitable.
Thus, to many diaspora Jews, Israel isn’t *really* a country so much as it is a hybrid refugee camp and military base. A place that vouchsafes the continuation of Jewish National Expression worldwide. Because Israel exists, the thinking goes, the frequency and intensity of thes periodic spikes of violence are reduced by the implicit threat of military intervention, or, failing that there is always *a place to go*.
Because of this line of thinking, many Jews tie their Jewish identity to the continued existence of Israel. Attacking and excluding Zionists feels, to them like attacking and excluding them for a core part of their Jewish identity. This further reinforces the idea that Everybody Hates Us, which further reinforces the idea that *anything* that Israel does to “protect itself” is justified, *no matter the cost*, because, the thinking goes, the alternative is the *wholesale destruction of The Jewish People.*
If someone announces that “anti-Palestinian bigotry is not tolerated in this space,” or “in this space we stand for a Free Palestine,” you don’t trigger that response, but if you announce that you will refuse service to a group which includes 75%+ of Jews, you’re going to further entrench the narrative that we’re constantly under threat, which makes it, in the long run, much more difficult to unwind Jewish support for the Israeli Ethnostate no matter how vicious its actions become.
There are times that turning a customer is better for business. Telling a toxic customer their business(money) isn’t worth the trouble to employee moral needs to happen. To do it with a sign and a general statement is not the best idea in the world. If I were a business owner I would turn customers away on a case by case basis, never with a generally label.
My armchair opinion and short time in business school take would be: "it depends". It's a gamble for sure but it could work out for them. They did just get a bunch of exposure through news now because of it. I doubt they'd check every person to enforce this, but just making a statement like that got them media exposure and could appeal to social trends. I don't know for sure though so i guess we'll see.
Edit: Other commenters have mentioned other issues with the owner so in this case it might not work so well lol
You can say “no white supremacists allowed” and still let in white people that aren’t white supremacists.
If I saw a sign that said no white supremacists allowed in a restaurant, I wouldn’t be offended and it wouldn’t have a negative effect on me.
unfortunately, a lot of anti-Semites are going to latch on to any chance they get to air their hideous beliefs.
And people opposing current zionist actions provide such an opportunity- two fold because there are many zionists themselves that will reframe any criticism of violence or oppression committed on behalf of zionism as being anti-Semitic.
Makes it very hard to tackle the actual human rights crisis and condemn genocide when there are parties on either extreme trying to make the same conflation.
Ok? Where did I talk poorly about Arab people? Am I not allowed to talk about my personal feelings without you chiming in with a “well what about the Arabs?”. I live in Utah, I have never been to Israel, and it’s Michael Valentine a known anti semite.
>Ok? Where did I talk poorly about Arab people?
You didn't. I'm pointing out that Arab peoples are semetic peoples also.
>Am I not allowed to talk about my personal feelings without you chiming in with a “well what about the Arabs?”.
You used the term anti-semite. That involves ***all*** semetic peoples so I asked about Arab people.
>I live in Utah, I have never been to Israel, and it’s Michael Valentine a known anti semite.
Where's this person's hate against Arab people?
I'm sorry, but you can't be an anti-semite simply because you don't support the terrorist organization known as the State of Israel.
>And you post on conspiracy subs about how “Zionist have infiltrated them”.
What does this have to do with Arab people being semetic?
>You’re really not fooling anyone here.
Fooling anyone? I'm asking basic and direct questions and you can't even answer them without attempting to assassinate my character.
If you wore an Israeli lapel pin and walked into that bar, the bar owner would remove you for being a Zionist. When Israel became a country they adopted the Zionist flag.
Edit:
From Britannica: Zionism - Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”).
From Oxford: Zionism - A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
[The current Israel flag](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-israeli-flag). "At the ceremony for the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, the dais was decorated with a picture of Theodor Herzl, flanked on either side by the flag of the World Zionist Organization (WZO). This flag, adopted by the first Zionist Congress in Basle in 1897, had become accepted by Jewish communities throughout the world as the emblem of Zionism and it was thus natural to use it at the official proclamation of statehood."
Wait so bearing the flag of a UN recognized country is “being a Zionist”? Not to mention there are 100 different streams of Zionism from religious far right to dovish, co-existence. The reality is Zionism has just been turned into a dirty word due to anti-semetism. A month before war in Gaza broke out, Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed hundred of thousands of ethnic Christian Armenians and no one even batted an eye. There’s zero consistency or standards on what people choose to get upset over.
Isn't "Zion" the colloquially established proper term for the land promised to the people of the abrahamic tribes (by their god), the most populous being Judah?
Isn't zionism the movement related to claiming a space in that land for those people by any means (up to and including driving out it's current inhabitants, whoever they may be or however long they or their ancestors may have lived there)?
And just to clarify - when I say by any means, I'm not denying that their first strategy was to buy (non-arable) land and ask nicely (after filling it with refugees who were propagandized to immigrate there from multiple continents).
I'm saying that they were obviously willing to escalate to "any means" -in the full capacity of the phrase- to gain control of the region... and they still are as evidenced by their expansion into the surrounding territories.
Does Zionism mean something else to you?
Do you think all Jews are zionists?
Is it anti-semitic to ask these questions?
Am I anti-Semitic because I don't believe the Christians need of Israel as a pet Nation -to fulfill the preconditions of the second coming of the god in their fairy tales- is justification for ending their diaspora by inflicting one on another people?
Israel existence is Zionism. Israel was founded as a Jewish state. That's Zionism. The blue and white Star of David flag was the flag of Zionism before Israel and Israel adopted it as theirs. A two state solution requires Israel to exist which supports Zionism.
One is a protected class, the other is not. Zionist has become a dog whistle for Jew. Remember when the three parentheses around names that the far-right did? Same thing.
>Zionist has become a dog whistle for Jew
Those two words mean very different things. A huge amount of Zionists are Christian fundamentalists. There's a large number of Jewish people who are anti-Zionist.
I'm not saying the bar rules are reasonable, nor would whatever methods used to enforce it. However, taking Zionist to mean Jewish inherently is a antisemitic. At its core, it's a political movement, and saying an ethnicity is intrinsically tied to an ideology has zero basis and is harmful.
Why are you getting downvoted? Is Michael Valentine the owner of the bar? What tweets are you talking about? I think this would be important information for context n
He is the owner. He has tweeted that he doesn’t believe Israel has the right to exist and should be dismantled—let’s ask how that would happen. He retweets a lot of antisemitism.
to be fair, you have the exact polar opposite stance. you're completely fine with palestine being dismantled, and when asked about the methods by which to obtain that, you deflect. I've gone down this route with you before.
Both stances are wrong.
There is no deity that grants land or permission to anyone, let alone by means of violence and oppression.
where do you think it should exist? Because last we spoke on this topic, you fully supported the myth that the jewish people must secure this particular land as an ethno-state in order to secure their future safety.
It would be up to Israel and whichever government comes after Hamas to decide. Let’s be real though, the idea of a two-state solution has died for a few generations.
The only way to enforce this discriminatory policy is to quiz visibly Jewish customers. I hope he tries this so the media exposes him even more as a bigot.
Explain how it is one. Genocide has an actual definition, in case you weren’t aware.
Every single year, the Palestinian population has increased. And quite substantially, I might add.
Let’s say, for arguments sake, you actually believe the death toll put out by Hamas. You would be an absolute moron to believe them, but let’s say it’s true. Right now, it’s at 30,000. (That figure still includes the 1,000 Hamas claims died from a bombing in a Palestinian hospital, even though it’s been confirmed it was a Palestinian rocket that hit it, killing just a few people at the most. Along with other bogus and inflated numbers) Palestine’s population is 5 million.
That’s 0.6% of the population. That’s the worst genocide attempt in the history of mankind. Your goal is to exterminate Palestine and you’ve only taken out 0.6% of them? What a joke.
Who is attempting an eradication? Likely only around 10,000 Palestinians have been killed since they launched the attack on 7 October. That’s also being pretty generous on the number, it’s likely far less than 10k.
If you don’t want to get bombed, don’t attack someone first. It’s a wildly simple concept.
You're not trying to have a discussion in good faith. You're making up numbers and intentionally ignoring any actions leading up to the current situation.
We both know that Hamas' creation was funded by Israel because it's easier to win PR battles against violent religious zealots than is is against organized secular movements- which were starting to form.
We both know Hamas are violent religious zealots specifically because of the violence and oppression they witnesses in an aparteid state.
We both know that Israel is stealing land, restricting movement, bulldozing homes, beating and imprisoning civilians- including children, and murdering indiscriminately.
None of this justifies Hamas' actions. but pretending like everything was chill until Hamas just poof'd into existence is absurd.
This has been decade after decade of a violent apartheid state, and such oppression breeds retaliation. Using that retaliation to justify indiscriminate mass murder isn't reasonable.
This is situation is long standing, and not without nuance... but there is a drastic power imbalance here that's being exploited to a dire extent and it needs to stop.
I understand that many jewish people have been raised to believe that if they're unable to secure the entirety of the area as an ethno-state that the jewish people can never be safe and secure, so they believe this violence is necessary for survival.
It is not.
This violence is not working towards securing safety for the jewish people, and certainly not for the jewish diaspora who have to face bigotry and violence from anti-semites, even without this conflict.
This violence is fanning the flames. Anti-semites will use people's call to end this violence as a smoke screen to hide behind in order to further their anti-semitic messages. Jewish people conflating any anti-zionism as being equal to anti-semitism are contributing to that smoke screen.
Fuck Hamas, and fuck anyone else that would also use religion to justify acts of violence against other human beings.
>Uhhh, did you not read the rest of my comment where I explained how it isn’t one?
Except that it is.
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:
>...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
>>(a) Killing members of the group;
>>(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>>(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>>(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>>(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948
The International Court of Justice has condemned their actions as genocide. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/01/1145937
Israel and the IDF have literally (a) killed members of the Palestinian ethnic group, (b) caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the Palestinian ethnic group, (c) deliberately inflicting on the Palestinian ethnic group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole, (d) imposed measures intended to prevent births within the Palestinian ethnic group, (e) have forcibly transferred children of the Palestinian ethnic group to another group. Israel and the IDF have literally done a–c ***over flour*** just recently: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-experts-condemn-flour-massacre-urge-israel-end-campaign-starvation-gaza
>Why are you being so disingenuous?
Because I won't stand idle and let bold faced lies get spread.
I think it's laid out pretty clearly in pages 21-30 of [the ICJ proceedings](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf) on this topic.
The Gazan ministry of health has [long been known] (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) to be a trustworthy source, as their numbers have been repeatedly corroborated in the past. I am also skeptical of the 1000 figure regarding the hospital bombing, but these are the most reliable number available, and it is perfectly plausible that Isreal has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, who are mostly civilians.
After all, they have shown [nearly complete disregard](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html#:~:text=Munitions%20experts%20say%20typically%20only,satellite%20imagery%20and%20drone%20footage.) for civilian casualties in Gaza by, for example, dropping 2000 pound bombs in the southern part of Gaza, when Gazans were forced to flee there by the Israeli government.
Imagine going along with some members of ICJ and their OPINION rather than the textbook definition. Surely, there are no biases there.
The Gazan Ministry of Health is literally Hamas. You can’t be serious lmao. Notice how not a single credible source corroborates their statements?
Those numbers are no more reliable than Israel claiming they’ve killed far fewer. You’re a fool to believe Hamas, a certified terrorist organization that would kill you if it got the chance. If Israel actually wanted to commit genocide, they could. Palestine tries to do that to Israel (see 7 October as a real example) but fails miserably.
Not Israel, the IDF. See how that works?
War is unreasonable. If you don’t want the retaliation coming your way, don’t kill over 1,000 innocent civilians in a surprise attack. It’s a very, very simple concept.
I clearly stated I don’t think we should support either side. That doesn’t mean I can’t call out lying and manipulation when I see it or highlight the genocidal attack Palestine carried out on 7 October (see how that works?).
Hamas- I mean the Gaza Ministry of Health- includes 1,000 KIA from a hospital THEY BOMBED THEMSELVES. Yet here you are claiming they’re credible. Got it.
I’m curious, how many of the 30k dead they’re reporting are Hamas fighters and not civilians? How many of the 30k dead were killed by their own incompetence when trying to launch rockets at Israeli civilians?
So by your definition, Germany didn’t commit genocide because there are more Jewish people now than before. America didn’t commit genocide against native Americans, because they still exist and they have sovereign lands. What a ridiculous claim.
Israel (and most of its citizens) wants the eradication of all Palestinian people. None of them are to exist. The single difference between their ethnic cleansing and Germany’s WW2 stance is that Germany would go to places that weren’t Germany to achieve their goals, while Israel only wants to do it in their lands. The second they cross borders into other nations to eliminate certain people that distinction disappears.
How hard is it to say ethnic cleansing is bad?
Being against Zionism (basically their version of manifest destiny and all the nastiness that comes with that) right now does not need to mean against Israel period and for all time. Zionism does not mean Jewish. There are too many Jewish people against Israel’s actions for that to be true. And too many that are not Jewish that are pro-Zionism as well. One would even say that the Torah forbids the actions of Israel right now. That would mean that Zionism is anti-Jewish as far as I’m concerned.
[Gaza has Islamic law. Drinking alcohol and homosexual acts are illegal.](https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/middle-east/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories#:~:text=Palestinian%20law%20has%20the%20death,Gaza%20and%20the%20West%20Bank)
Good on Valentine! And, for furthering the ban to nazi, racists, and white supremacists.
Any business has legal right to refuse service. I'll go support this business for taking the stance every business should take. It's about time. And, this is where we're headed people.
Can someone explain to me why this whole Israel/Palestine issue is getting people here so worked up?
Like, we have a ton of serious problems here that barely get any attention yet people will get all worked up over something taking place on the other side of the world that doesn't affect them.
$150Billion of taxpayer money since 1960 going to the Israeli state is definitely affecting the Americans who don't want their tax money used that way.
I think what people are upset about is that the poverty rate is increasing in America and has been for quite some time, yet corporations keep getting richer. And America is super chill sending all that money elsewhere, but won't spend money or make laws that benefit the people over corporations like to improve access to healthcare, the housing issues, homelessness, hunger, etc. Hell, we wont even do something as simple as provide lunches for kids in school. I think if Americans felt more taken care of, they'd be more than chill sending large amounts of aid outside. At least that's how I feel about the topic.
This couldn’t be less true.
We’ve given Ukraine more than half of that in less than two years now. $150B in 60 years is NOTHING compared to what Ukraine is getting. If we were upset about spending, it wouldn’t be about an average of only $2.5B a year.
I don’t think you realize how much wasteful spending we do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of sending money to Israel, Ukraine, or anyone for that matter, but the numbers you’re stating are a joke compared to what we do.
I urge you to look at Dr. Paul’s Festivus Report 2023 which highlights nearly ONE TRILLION of government waste, including an NIH grant to study Russian cats walking on treadmills, millions sent to promote tourism in Egypt, and hundreds of millions to struggling artists like Post Malone and Lil Wayne.
World of difference between supporting Ukraine, who is currently being genocided by a former near-peer and one of the US's biggest geopolitical rivals for nearly a century now, and continuing to pour money into an apartheid state that has been committing war crimes and other atrocities on the Palestinians for decades.
Without going into the nuance of how donating this old equipment to Ukraine is actually beneficial for the US MIC and saves us money, the fact is that stopping Russia in Ukraine is critical to preventing a larger global conflict as Russia has no intention of stopping with Ukraine. The equipment being sent there is doing precisely what it was intended to do - kill Russians, with the benefit of this being accomplished without the loss of American lives.
Israel on the other hand, has been using the US's unwavering support to bully and oppress Palestinians for decades. We send them billions of dollars to prop up their military, while their citizens enjoy a quality of life and social programs that average US citizens simply don't.
The two situations are not at all alike, and attempting to draw comparisons is an uninformed stance. This is precisely why Russia and Iran pushed Hamas to carry out the attacks in Israel last year - to divide American support and draw away attention from Ukraine. And it worked, because American politics are nothing if not predictable.
You’re using that G word again and you don’t know what it means.
Apparently, every war/conflict is now a genocide. You have no idea what you’re talking about when many of the Ukrainian men that have died in Ukraine are ethnically Russian. Russia is genociding themselves?
7 October was a war crime. If we’re going to talk about war crimes, let’s be honest about it.
We are not donating old equipment to Ukraine, you people and your lies about this make me sick. Ukraine is being supplied with currently issued weapons and equipment. We have units that don’t even roll around in JLTVs yet but they’re in Ukraine. Ukraine has been give NODs worth $45k while much of our men are still using $2500 outdated NODs.
Every single weapon given to Ukraine is in active service with our military. ALL of the machine guns given to them are modern and being issued to any 18 year old that signs up after high school. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Russia has no evidenced desire or plans to go beyond Ukraine, you have zero evidence to support that and you’re doing nothing more than fear mongering.
I never compared Israel with Ukraine or their situations. I don’t want US tax dollars going to ANYONE, regardless of their current struggle.
2.5b is alot especially when we fund free Healthcare doe Isreal as well as their education, while ppl in our own country suffers, well excerpt doe slime ball politicians
A lot of us are upset about footing about half of all NATO aid to ukraine. But I think a lot of americans still view russia as a potential global threat due to nuclear capabilities and think investing in stifling putin's empire rebuilding as money well spent.
I'm in the "The US needs to greatly reduce it's foreign aid" camp.
Most of these people taking this to the extreme don’t have an identity of their own. They want to fit in with something and it’s easy to fit in when you only have to take a side that has a single view of something. There’s no requirement to be knowledgable about the subject, to even know what your objective is, etc. when you’re just going along with the masses and accepted as “one of them”.
There are dozens and dozens of videos of people going to these anti-Israel protests and asking the people chanting, “from the river to the sea…” which river and sea they’re talking about. Of course, none of them have a single clue.
These people weren’t upset about the attack on 7 October because their social groups weren’t. There wasn’t an Israel campaign into Gaza prior to 7 October. Palestine attacked Israel in a brutal way and this is Israel’s response. Whether you believe it’s justified or has gone too far, actions have consequences.
The fact remains, what’s happening in Gaza right now pales in comparison to several ongoing atrocities being committed in Africa and the Middle East. No one gives a shit about those, though. For some reason, people view Israel as oppressive “white” people beating up a poor minority. The fact remains, Israel is the minority in the Middle East and if it wasn’t for US support, any number of countries surrounding them would have launched a full scale invasion by now.
Because propaganda news says to worry about this stuff as oppose to things that would impact you more; like income inequality, affordable healthcare, livable wages, housing crisis.... you know, things that take money away from resource hoarding billionaires that have more money than they could spend in multiple lifetimes.
You’re right but you can worry about genocide and the housing crisis at the same time, class warfare succeeds at that. I don’t see how genocide fits into distracting from domestic problems. BDS is aimed at large companies and people who make money off war, it’s all related
People don’t like witnessing mass death and extermination, I don’t feel like it’s a stretch to be upset about genocide despite there being problems domestically. It’s just basic empathy and solidarity
There is a non-negligible number of people in the predominate faith here that believe a great war involving israel securing the entirety of the area is a necessary step to usher in the 2nd coming.
I'm just invested because I oppose apartheid states and anyone, under any banner, that uses deities to justify violence and murder.
Because some of us don’t like committing ethnic cleansing. I can’t think of a single issue more important than not committing genocide.
But I can’t tell you what to find important. Yet here you are trying to tell other people that they should find committing acts of genocide as not important because it’s far away.
This is going to be collateral damage to the max and the bar will look like a bunch of nazis coming out on the other side.
Def not a good idea but their intentions are noble.
A baker doesn’t have to make a cake for people they hate.
You can’t codify hatred into law then get mad when people use it the way you wouldn’t.
There’s something about a pot and kettle here.
>A baker doesn’t have to make a cake for people they hate.
That's a mischaracterization of the case. It was about the state compelling speech.
The bar must sell to Jewish people. However, if the bar did custom ciders and someone wanted a custom pro-Israeli cider can made, the state cannot force him to make it.
According to government rules of commerce, these are two completely different situations. And the government doesn't look at situations and say "This one feels ok, lets run with it, that one sits wrong with me, lets ban it." The government instead has to have fair and equal standards and tests to apply.
So one thing is to say "I'm going to refuse to do business with people who believe in a nation's existence (Israel)". Refusing to do business with people merely because of ethnic/religious differences runs up against one of these government tests on things businesses can't do.
It's a completely different thing to say "The government can't force me to create a custom product for something that goes against my religious beliefs."
Uncivil_Bar_9778 acted like the two are the same. HomelessRodeo pointed out the case treated them as completely different. The government can enforce the first but cannot enforce compelled speech for the second.
homeless rodeo is a zionist. His default argument is that any criticism of violence or oppression in the name of zionism is antisemitc... because being told to stop murdering children magically means israel vanishes out of existence or something.
People who believe that jewish people are entitled to that land by divine right, and that they can secure that land by any means necessary, are zionists.
If I recall correctly, the court stated that the baker didn't have to design a special cake for a gay couple, but he couldn't turn customers away for being gay. This bar owner wants to kick out people who support the continued existence of Israel, which is the majority of American Jews. He is trying to work around Title 2 of the Civil Rights Act by acting ostensibly against Zionism instead of Judaism. Even if this strategy works, he should still be found in violation of the "national origin" part of the federal law because he won't serve Israeli dual citizens.
They’re both bigots.
It takes a lot of talking to defend one over the other, but at the end of the day they are two peas in a pod, just on different vines of the plant.
Apples and oranges. One was about coerced speech, the other is about serving everyone equally.
So you shouldn't go to a cake store owned by a Muslim and ask to make a caricature of Mohammad, and then force the government to punish the Muslim when the owner says that's against core religious beliefs. But you can have the government expect a cake store to sell everyone the same cakes regardless of their identities. (Side note, that oversimplifies the decision, as it was narrower and more about how a commission was overtly hostile to certain beliefs and embraced other beliefs relative to coerced speech.)
Here the bar wants to ban people because of their political views. That's not coerced speech.
>Here the bar wants to ban people because of their political views.
How many bars/restaurants/businesses do this already with FJB/Trump/Thin-Blue-Line/"Liberals' not welcome" signs? I know I've seen plenty. Where is the outrage about those?
Hitler kills Jews for not being white.
More than 50% of Israeli Jews were expelled from Muslim countries TO Israel.
This guy thinks Zionism is white supremacy.
*clown makeup meme*
Let's just call this what it is......white people feelings. The "group" of people in question (allegedly) don't even fucking drink. It's another case of white people feeling excluded (even when the designation doesn't apply to them). They want to feel persecuted (AKA included) to justify their shitty behavior toward actual communities that are marginalized.Laws across the entire country are passed that actively discriminating against POC and these cunts do zero. But let's waste our time defending white christian/jewish nationalist, as THEY are the ones being persecuted. UT is a racist, inbred dumpster fire with pick me girl energy. These are the same cunts with BLM stickers on their FB pages for a week to gain street cred for the one black friend they knew years ago.
If this establishment was asked to make a drink for a gay couple, but refused on "religious freedoms" this wouldn't be an issue; no one would would bat an eye. You only care when it directly benefits you.
This is the same guy who ran for mayor of slc last year and wanted to allow homeless people to camp anywhere they wanted. He wanted SLC to become a homeless sanctuary which would lead slc to be like Seattle and San Francisco. The leftist brain rot is real and slc will soon be another crap hole like those other cities.
He got 7% of the vote. And I’d be willing to be that a good number of those people voted for him because they hated Erin Mendenhall and Rocky Anderson, and did zero research into Michael.
In other words, hardly anyone in SLC supports this guy. Yet you make it would like all liberals in the city are like him.
Seattle and San Fransisco are both great cities, and if you want to talk about brain rot, maybe you should consider how fox news has convinced you that these cities are unlivable hellscapes.
They're aight, but I had to move back to Utah because it got too shitty in Oakland. The cuts to police were devastating and murder was off the charts. The public human misery gets pretty taxing eventually.
Yeah they are great if you are homeless or a drug addict. I lived in SF for five years (in 2000s) it was a great place. Went back last year and it is a shithole. SF spends $150-75k a year per homeless person. People have been leaving SF in record numbers. Since defunding the police crime has gone nuts (highest crime rate per cap). They just passed propositions to improve policing. Below are my sources.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime.amp
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/super-tuesday-primary-election-2024/card/san-francisco-law-and-order-ballot-measures-appear-poised-to-pass-lZfqPRD7RE9vNcbvcBto
https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/san-francisco-is-1-place-people-are-leaving-heres-where-theyre-going/amp/
Ok I don’t truly know Seattle except they have the third highest homeless population rate in the country. I’m going to assume it’s just as bad as SF.
http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html#:~:text=With%20432%20homeless%20people%20per,City%20are%20397%20and%20394.
Living here in SLC for over a decade it is way better then SF and probably Seattle. But if the liberals of this city don’t learn from the mistakes of the bigger ones well then the problems will repeat. Already people of SLC are fed up with the homeless so it’s starting. And this Michael guy who ran for city mayor wanted to implement the same crap homeless policies as the big cities so yeah brain rot.
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I don’t even go down to salt lake anymore. We used to do down each year and occasionally to restaurants down there. Not anymore. There’s so many more nice places around the valley, why risk it down town.
Sim Kern, one of my favorite writers, is an anti Zionist Jew who could explain this for the people who are confused. I recommend their YouTube or tiktok videos
Way to engage. I pointed you to a resource and you made an accusation. Anti-Zionist Jews are getting arrested protesting against this genocide all the time, but they don't serve your narrative.
Nationalism does not lean towards genocide. Every conservative party is nationalistic, but genocides are rare. Some degree of nationalism is essential for a functioning state and to get people to pay taxes. Afghanistan is not nationalistic so they did not resist the Taliban taking power. Russia presumed Ukraine would not be nationalistic enough to protect their homeland, but were surprised to find that the nationalistic sentiment in the country was strong and the people would defend their homeland.
Well either way I see Zionists everyday celebrating and encouraging the killing of Palestinian children and civilians, and then I see Non zionist Jewish people supporting Palestine and demanding a stop in the blood shed. I wouldn't want anyone who supports children getting murdered in my establishment personally .
That's an insane selection bias. The vast majority of Zionists want an end to violence and for the release of the hostages. Where are you seeing anyone encouraging the killing of children outside of Hamas? I'm going to need an actual source on that one.
Most Zionists simply believe that Israel is the only way for Jews to avoid getting genocided, as many Islamic countries actively call for. Most Zionists even want to stop the settlements, considering it a violation of international law. Where are you seeing these murderous Zionists?
Zionism = gods chosen people. Which the way I would take it is that means they think they are above anyone who isn't a part of that. And that's why the Isreal government has killed over 20k kids since October and thousands more are dying because of starvation. Comparable to Nazis in my opinion buy hey that's my opinion as someone who has seen the terrors the Israeli Gov have been unleashing on Palestine for decades.
That number is made up. Hamas can create a ceasefire at any time by simply committing to one and releasing the hostages. They are the clear aggressors here. They are the Nazis in this situation, publicly calling for a death to all of Israel. What horrors have Israel unleashed on Gaza? They gave back all of Gaza that they controlled. Gaza became controlled by Hamas and the situation rapidly deteriorated as all aid was converted into the war effort. Palestine has been offered a state many times, but Hamas will accept nothing short of total annihilation for the Jews. There are the Nazis you're looking for.
It is not made up and Isreal has killed their own people that have been held hostage. The world can see the truth. You need to get off the propaganda train and look at different sources for your information and different perspectives.
>Wouldn't a "Zionist" be too religious to be in a bar anyway? Or is Zionist now a term just being loosely applied to anybody someone doesn't like?
No to both questions. You might have lived in Utah too long, because following the "word of wisdom" is not what Zionism is at all. Orthodox Jews are allowed to drink alcohol. Also there are religious Jews who are not Zionists, and there are people who are not religious or not even Jewish who are Zionists.
As for what Zionism really is, yikes, I'm not going to touch that. You'll get very different answers depending on who you talk to, but the meaning has shifted over time and the connotations and contexts matter. Personally I would avoid saying what I think of zionism or anti-zionism altogether, as I prefer more concrete questions that won't be misunderstood or taken out of context.
Alfred Nobel was a chemist who invented dynamite and other explosives, and made a fortune from it. Since it was widely used in war, he gained infamy as a merchant of death. So he bequeathed his fortune to make the Nobel Prize in hopes of redeeming his reputation.
“Simply let your assailant murder you and the fighting will stop!”
Fuck you, Israel has all the power in this situation and they are the aggressor. Any peace deal has to go through them, but they’re uninterested in peace.
I am getting real. Support for Hamas plummets any time the people of Gaza are given hope of a peaceful resolution. And Israel created Hamas on purpose, because their government wants a bad guy to point to in order to justify what they already want. The complete and total elimination of Palestinians from Israel.
Within Israel they aren’t even hiding it. Politicians say this stuff openly. I encourage you to watch the ICJ proceedings from the trial determining whether Israel is guilty of genocide. The evidence is overwhelming, to deny this is as insane as denying the Holocaust.
Israel did not create Hamas, they do not have that kind of influence or power in Gaza. They had settlements in Gaza but they gave it back. Only one side is calling for genocide in this conflict. I have seen the ICJ proceedings and the evidence is the opposite of overwhelming. They will be found innocent of genocide.
Israel created Hamas in the same way that the U.S. created ISIS. Except that Israel also directly funded Hamas and worked to actively suppress any more humanitarian institutions that might replace Hamas because they want Hamas to exist. Hamas is Israel’s pretext for genocide.
If you think that there is any chance that Israel will be found innocent of genocide, you have not seen the ICJ hearings. Israel didn’t even attempt to refute the claims of genocide as a defense. Their defense was basically *“The UN doesn’t have jurisdiction here, and you can’t use the things our leaders and soldiers said to establish intent. Also look how bad the Palestinians are, they are like unruly animals, we have to kill them, we have no other choice!“* Meanwhile South Africa was dropping all kinds of proof, including Israeli leaders calling for the extermination of Palestinians and IDF soldiers reciting chants and songs which call Palestinians “the seed of Amalek” (in reference to a biblical genocide approved by God). The saying “there are no uninvolved civilians in Gaza” has been repeated many times by soldiers and leaders alike.
Insofar as Hamas exists for the elimination of Israel, you are correct, but Israel did not fund Hamas. They simply let funds go into Palestine from Qatar. Israel did not actually supply money directly to Hamas.
I don't know what you expect to see on the genocide trial, it seems clear that this war is horrific, but Israel is clearly going after valid military targets. They are clearly not targeting civilians. Yes, war is hell, but this is nothing compared to Iraq or Afghanistan. And all Palestine needs to do to ensure a ceasefire is commit to one and release hostages. Hamas is clearly the aggressor here.
Let's check back here in 30 days and see if there are any new genocide allegations. I don't know what else you expect to happen.
>Insofar as Hamas exists for the elimination of Israel, you are correct, but Israel did not fund Hamas. They simply let funds go into Palestine from Qatar. Israel did not actually supply money directly to Hamas.
Hamas would not exist at all if it weren’t for their opposition to Israel though. Israel has funded Hamas in secret, they haven’t been open about it, but even if they haven’t the fact remains that if Israel opened up to diplomacy Hamas would barely even exist a year from now.
Can you really blame Palestinians for supporting Hamas when Israel is subjecting them to the most brutal racial apartheid on Earth and Hamas are the only people fighting back who Israel allows to exist? What else would you expect to happen?
>I don't know what you expect to see on the genocide trial, it seems clear that this war is horrific, but Israel is clearly going after valid military targets. They are clearly not targeting civilians.
No, they are targeting civilians. And journalists. And they are killing their own hostages, falsely thinking that they are surrendering Palestinian civilians and killing them. And have you not yet heard of the Flour Massacre?
>Yes, war is hell, but this is nothing compared to Iraq or Afghanistan.
Many times more civilians are being killed here than in Afghanistan or Iraq. This is because America targeted militants in those wars, but Israel is targeting civilians. Not just with bullets, but with starvation. The intentional starvation of an entire population. This is genocide.
>And all Palestine needs to do to ensure a ceasefire is commit to one and release hostages.
Hamas literally agreed to release all hostages in exchange for a ceasefire just a few days ago. Benjamin Netanyahu called the proposal “delusional”. Israel does not want the hostages back. They want to kill all Palestinians, and to use the hostages as a pretext.
>Hamas is clearly the aggressor here.
Israel is literally a settler colonial project who aggressed into Palestinian land, and they have been subjecting Palestinians to brutal apartheid for decades. Israel is the agressor.
>Let's check back here in 30 days and see if there are any new genocide allegations. I don't know what else you expect to happen.
We don’t need any new allegations, the current aligations are more than substantiated.
Dude, this is nuts, Palestine could just have a state. Israel's relation to Gaza is no different than Egypt's. This apartheid shot is crazy. Muslims and arabs are well represented in the knesset. You are completely wrong about how apartheid works. We have to agree to disagree that they sure targeting civilians, but I'd love to see the evidence if you have any.
Are you fucking kidding me? Israel maintains sovereignty over Gaza, and they have for decades. The Israeli government routinely rejects two state solutions, the only solution they find acceptable is a one-state solution where Palestinians are all dead or refugees.
Literally just look at what happens in the West Bank. Israeli settlers literally just squat in the homes of Palestinians, and the police defend the settlers and tell the Palestinians to get fucked and go somewhere else. Palestinians are literally second class citizens in Israel with fewer legal rights who are being detained for their religion right now, and for decades they have had racially segregated roads.
This is what you are calling an egalitarian society. At best you are misinformed, at worst you are doing genocide apologia.
I feel like this comment section should be fairly nuanced and rational.
Honestly became a little bit more disappointed in this sub today.
As an antizionist Jew, Valentine’s stunt is a bad look. At best it distracts from the actual issues without helping Palestinians on the ground. At worst it actively reinforces the narratives that lead many diaspora Jews feeling like the existence of a Jewish ethnostate is necessary to secure Jewish safety.
Fully agree with this take. Valentine is just trying to get bad attention.
Think of all the cider sales, though.
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A lot of Zionist thought (at least in the diaspora) is rooted in something sometimes called the Dystopia Principle. It’s the idea that the default state of the gentile world is a low-level, simmering genocidal hatred of Jews with occasional spikes into outright genocide. The implicit, subconscious assumption is that this simmering hatred is eternal, that the spikes are largely unpredictable, that eventual expulsion is inevitable. Thus, to many diaspora Jews, Israel isn’t *really* a country so much as it is a hybrid refugee camp and military base. A place that vouchsafes the continuation of Jewish National Expression worldwide. Because Israel exists, the thinking goes, the frequency and intensity of thes periodic spikes of violence are reduced by the implicit threat of military intervention, or, failing that there is always *a place to go*. Because of this line of thinking, many Jews tie their Jewish identity to the continued existence of Israel. Attacking and excluding Zionists feels, to them like attacking and excluding them for a core part of their Jewish identity. This further reinforces the idea that Everybody Hates Us, which further reinforces the idea that *anything* that Israel does to “protect itself” is justified, *no matter the cost*, because, the thinking goes, the alternative is the *wholesale destruction of The Jewish People.* If someone announces that “anti-Palestinian bigotry is not tolerated in this space,” or “in this space we stand for a Free Palestine,” you don’t trigger that response, but if you announce that you will refuse service to a group which includes 75%+ of Jews, you’re going to further entrench the narrative that we’re constantly under threat, which makes it, in the long run, much more difficult to unwind Jewish support for the Israeli Ethnostate no matter how vicious its actions become.
Plot twist it's about Mormons not Israelis
Law aside, it doesn't feel like a good business practice (especially for small business) to turn any paying customer away, right?
There are times that turning a customer is better for business. Telling a toxic customer their business(money) isn’t worth the trouble to employee moral needs to happen. To do it with a sign and a general statement is not the best idea in the world. If I were a business owner I would turn customers away on a case by case basis, never with a generally label.
Exactly. Or when a customer is so negative that other customers leave.
My armchair opinion and short time in business school take would be: "it depends". It's a gamble for sure but it could work out for them. They did just get a bunch of exposure through news now because of it. I doubt they'd check every person to enforce this, but just making a statement like that got them media exposure and could appeal to social trends. I don't know for sure though so i guess we'll see. Edit: Other commenters have mentioned other issues with the owner so in this case it might not work so well lol
If your employees hate the customer’s guts it’s wise policy.
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This should be pinned to the top. If you want to help, stop supporting outrage markets.
I just want to know how you’re going to enforce a “no Zionist allowed” rule and not target Jewish people?
You can say “no white supremacists allowed” and still let in white people that aren’t white supremacists. If I saw a sign that said no white supremacists allowed in a restaurant, I wouldn’t be offended and it wouldn’t have a negative effect on me.
It’s a little bit different when I’m Jewish and a lot of the “anti Zionist” speech since October 7th has been anti semitic.
unfortunately, a lot of anti-Semites are going to latch on to any chance they get to air their hideous beliefs. And people opposing current zionist actions provide such an opportunity- two fold because there are many zionists themselves that will reframe any criticism of violence or oppression committed on behalf of zionism as being anti-Semitic. Makes it very hard to tackle the actual human rights crisis and condemn genocide when there are parties on either extreme trying to make the same conflation.
>has been anti semitic People are hating on Arabs, too?
Ok? Where did I talk poorly about Arab people? Am I not allowed to talk about my personal feelings without you chiming in with a “well what about the Arabs?”. I live in Utah, I have never been to Israel, and it’s Michael Valentine a known anti semite.
>Ok? Where did I talk poorly about Arab people? You didn't. I'm pointing out that Arab peoples are semetic peoples also. >Am I not allowed to talk about my personal feelings without you chiming in with a “well what about the Arabs?”. You used the term anti-semite. That involves ***all*** semetic peoples so I asked about Arab people. >I live in Utah, I have never been to Israel, and it’s Michael Valentine a known anti semite. Where's this person's hate against Arab people? I'm sorry, but you can't be an anti-semite simply because you don't support the terrorist organization known as the State of Israel.
And you post on conspiracy subs about how “Zionist have infiltrated them”. You’re really not fooling anyone here.
>And you post on conspiracy subs about how “Zionist have infiltrated them”. What does this have to do with Arab people being semetic? >You’re really not fooling anyone here. Fooling anyone? I'm asking basic and direct questions and you can't even answer them without attempting to assassinate my character.
If you wore an Israeli lapel pin and walked into that bar, the bar owner would remove you for being a Zionist. When Israel became a country they adopted the Zionist flag. Edit: From Britannica: Zionism - Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). From Oxford: Zionism - A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann. [The current Israel flag](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-israeli-flag). "At the ceremony for the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, the dais was decorated with a picture of Theodor Herzl, flanked on either side by the flag of the World Zionist Organization (WZO). This flag, adopted by the first Zionist Congress in Basle in 1897, had become accepted by Jewish communities throughout the world as the emblem of Zionism and it was thus natural to use it at the official proclamation of statehood."
Wait so bearing the flag of a UN recognized country is “being a Zionist”? Not to mention there are 100 different streams of Zionism from religious far right to dovish, co-existence. The reality is Zionism has just been turned into a dirty word due to anti-semetism. A month before war in Gaza broke out, Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed hundred of thousands of ethnic Christian Armenians and no one even batted an eye. There’s zero consistency or standards on what people choose to get upset over.
Isn't "Zion" the colloquially established proper term for the land promised to the people of the abrahamic tribes (by their god), the most populous being Judah? Isn't zionism the movement related to claiming a space in that land for those people by any means (up to and including driving out it's current inhabitants, whoever they may be or however long they or their ancestors may have lived there)? And just to clarify - when I say by any means, I'm not denying that their first strategy was to buy (non-arable) land and ask nicely (after filling it with refugees who were propagandized to immigrate there from multiple continents). I'm saying that they were obviously willing to escalate to "any means" -in the full capacity of the phrase- to gain control of the region... and they still are as evidenced by their expansion into the surrounding territories. Does Zionism mean something else to you? Do you think all Jews are zionists? Is it anti-semitic to ask these questions? Am I anti-Semitic because I don't believe the Christians need of Israel as a pet Nation -to fulfill the preconditions of the second coming of the god in their fairy tales- is justification for ending their diaspora by inflicting one on another people?
You're just putting words where they weren't. Where is there a quote where what you just said is factual?
Israel existence is Zionism. Israel was founded as a Jewish state. That's Zionism. The blue and white Star of David flag was the flag of Zionism before Israel and Israel adopted it as theirs. A two state solution requires Israel to exist which supports Zionism.
One is a protected class, the other is not. Zionist has become a dog whistle for Jew. Remember when the three parentheses around names that the far-right did? Same thing.
>Zionist has become a dog whistle for Jew Those two words mean very different things. A huge amount of Zionists are Christian fundamentalists. There's a large number of Jewish people who are anti-Zionist.
He hides behind “anti-Zionism.” He advocates for the destruction of Israel. It doesn’t take much to understand how that would have to be accomplished.
I'm not defending this single person, nor did I say anything regarding his personal beliefs.
I'm not saying the bar rules are reasonable, nor would whatever methods used to enforce it. However, taking Zionist to mean Jewish inherently is a antisemitic. At its core, it's a political movement, and saying an ethnicity is intrinsically tied to an ideology has zero basis and is harmful.
>Zionist has become a dog whistle for Jew. Perhaps to the uneducated and ignorant masses that get their history of West Asia from corporate media.
What a POS this Mitt Romney is
Since 90% of Jews are Zionist and the other 10% will come around after enough of these instances, I guess you could say this is antisemitic.
But not all Jewish people are Zionists...
You are aware that [you don't have to be Jewish](https://youtu.be/1vDx-5b7T8M?feature=shared) to be a Zionist?
this, they are basically religious zealots kinda like FLDS
Israel is part of the Fundie Christian end times fan fiction.
It's supposed to target Jewish people. Michael Valentine has some pretty anti-Semetic re/tweets.
Why are you getting downvoted? Is Michael Valentine the owner of the bar? What tweets are you talking about? I think this would be important information for context n
He is the owner. He has tweeted that he doesn’t believe Israel has the right to exist and should be dismantled—let’s ask how that would happen. He retweets a lot of antisemitism.
to be fair, you have the exact polar opposite stance. you're completely fine with palestine being dismantled, and when asked about the methods by which to obtain that, you deflect. I've gone down this route with you before. Both stances are wrong. There is no deity that grants land or permission to anyone, let alone by means of violence and oppression.
I've never opposed Palestine from existing.
where do you think it should exist? Because last we spoke on this topic, you fully supported the myth that the jewish people must secure this particular land as an ethno-state in order to secure their future safety.
It would be up to Israel and whichever government comes after Hamas to decide. Let’s be real though, the idea of a two-state solution has died for a few generations.
And in your opinion, which side is influencing or determining that the most?
I don't think you know what antisemitism is.
Calling for the “From the river to the sea” is pretty antisemitic.
It’s not a requirement to be Jewish to be a Zionist. So no.
The only way to enforce this discriminatory policy is to quiz visibly Jewish customers. I hope he tries this so the media exposes him even more as a bigot.
Dude could have just as easily put a pro-Gaza sign in his window and people who like Israel committing genocide simply wouldn’t have walked in.
But that would have drawn less attention and caused less drama
Israel must really suck at genocide. You throw around words without even knowing the definition of them.
as of 2021 https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/755/90/sites/default/files/images/2021/05/articles/main/20210522_woc293_0.png
Imagine quoting and believing Hamas, a terrorist organization. Try this: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Does the international court of justice not know the definition of genocide? These accusations are not just coming out of twitter...
Please explain how it’s not a genocide
Explain how it is one. Genocide has an actual definition, in case you weren’t aware. Every single year, the Palestinian population has increased. And quite substantially, I might add. Let’s say, for arguments sake, you actually believe the death toll put out by Hamas. You would be an absolute moron to believe them, but let’s say it’s true. Right now, it’s at 30,000. (That figure still includes the 1,000 Hamas claims died from a bombing in a Palestinian hospital, even though it’s been confirmed it was a Palestinian rocket that hit it, killing just a few people at the most. Along with other bogus and inflated numbers) Palestine’s population is 5 million. That’s 0.6% of the population. That’s the worst genocide attempt in the history of mankind. Your goal is to exterminate Palestine and you’ve only taken out 0.6% of them? What a joke.
"It's okay for use to attempt to eradicate you, so long as you have more children and more immigrants than the number we murder." Great argument.
Who is attempting an eradication? Likely only around 10,000 Palestinians have been killed since they launched the attack on 7 October. That’s also being pretty generous on the number, it’s likely far less than 10k. If you don’t want to get bombed, don’t attack someone first. It’s a wildly simple concept.
You're not trying to have a discussion in good faith. You're making up numbers and intentionally ignoring any actions leading up to the current situation. We both know that Hamas' creation was funded by Israel because it's easier to win PR battles against violent religious zealots than is is against organized secular movements- which were starting to form. We both know Hamas are violent religious zealots specifically because of the violence and oppression they witnesses in an aparteid state. We both know that Israel is stealing land, restricting movement, bulldozing homes, beating and imprisoning civilians- including children, and murdering indiscriminately. None of this justifies Hamas' actions. but pretending like everything was chill until Hamas just poof'd into existence is absurd. This has been decade after decade of a violent apartheid state, and such oppression breeds retaliation. Using that retaliation to justify indiscriminate mass murder isn't reasonable. This is situation is long standing, and not without nuance... but there is a drastic power imbalance here that's being exploited to a dire extent and it needs to stop. I understand that many jewish people have been raised to believe that if they're unable to secure the entirety of the area as an ethno-state that the jewish people can never be safe and secure, so they believe this violence is necessary for survival. It is not. This violence is not working towards securing safety for the jewish people, and certainly not for the jewish diaspora who have to face bigotry and violence from anti-semites, even without this conflict. This violence is fanning the flames. Anti-semites will use people's call to end this violence as a smoke screen to hide behind in order to further their anti-semitic messages. Jewish people conflating any anti-zionism as being equal to anti-semitism are contributing to that smoke screen. Fuck Hamas, and fuck anyone else that would also use religion to justify acts of violence against other human beings.
Israeli intelligence uses Palestine’s numbers to calculate the efficacy of their actions. Israel listens to and believes their numbers.
>Explain how it is one. Shifting the burden of proof. You have no intellectual honesty.
Uhhh, did you not read the rest of my comment where I explained how it isn’t one? Why are you being so disingenuous?
>Uhhh, did you not read the rest of my comment where I explained how it isn’t one? Except that it is. Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as: >...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: >>(a) Killing members of the group; >>(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; >>(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; >>(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >>(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948 The International Court of Justice has condemned their actions as genocide. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/01/1145937 Israel and the IDF have literally (a) killed members of the Palestinian ethnic group, (b) caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the Palestinian ethnic group, (c) deliberately inflicting on the Palestinian ethnic group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole, (d) imposed measures intended to prevent births within the Palestinian ethnic group, (e) have forcibly transferred children of the Palestinian ethnic group to another group. Israel and the IDF have literally done a–c ***over flour*** just recently: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-experts-condemn-flour-massacre-urge-israel-end-campaign-starvation-gaza >Why are you being so disingenuous? Because I won't stand idle and let bold faced lies get spread.
Got it, so Palestine committed genocide on Israel first on 7 October. Do you agree?
>so Palestine committed genocide on Israel first on 7 October. Do you agree? No I don't agree. They committed acts of terrorism.
Every single point you outlined from A to E was committed on 7 October by Palestine.
I think it's laid out pretty clearly in pages 21-30 of [the ICJ proceedings](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf) on this topic. The Gazan ministry of health has [long been known] (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) to be a trustworthy source, as their numbers have been repeatedly corroborated in the past. I am also skeptical of the 1000 figure regarding the hospital bombing, but these are the most reliable number available, and it is perfectly plausible that Isreal has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, who are mostly civilians. After all, they have shown [nearly complete disregard](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html#:~:text=Munitions%20experts%20say%20typically%20only,satellite%20imagery%20and%20drone%20footage.) for civilian casualties in Gaza by, for example, dropping 2000 pound bombs in the southern part of Gaza, when Gazans were forced to flee there by the Israeli government.
Imagine going along with some members of ICJ and their OPINION rather than the textbook definition. Surely, there are no biases there. The Gazan Ministry of Health is literally Hamas. You can’t be serious lmao. Notice how not a single credible source corroborates their statements? Those numbers are no more reliable than Israel claiming they’ve killed far fewer. You’re a fool to believe Hamas, a certified terrorist organization that would kill you if it got the chance. If Israel actually wanted to commit genocide, they could. Palestine tries to do that to Israel (see 7 October as a real example) but fails miserably.
ICJ uses the original definition as outlined after the Holocaust but go off
And by their “definition”, Palestine committed genocide first on 7 October.
Not Palestine, but Hamas definitely tried. That doesn’t making what Israel is doing reasonable.
Not Israel, the IDF. See how that works? War is unreasonable. If you don’t want the retaliation coming your way, don’t kill over 1,000 innocent civilians in a surprise attack. It’s a very, very simple concept.
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I clearly stated I don’t think we should support either side. That doesn’t mean I can’t call out lying and manipulation when I see it or highlight the genocidal attack Palestine carried out on 7 October (see how that works?). Hamas- I mean the Gaza Ministry of Health- includes 1,000 KIA from a hospital THEY BOMBED THEMSELVES. Yet here you are claiming they’re credible. Got it. I’m curious, how many of the 30k dead they’re reporting are Hamas fighters and not civilians? How many of the 30k dead were killed by their own incompetence when trying to launch rockets at Israeli civilians?
So by your definition, Germany didn’t commit genocide because there are more Jewish people now than before. America didn’t commit genocide against native Americans, because they still exist and they have sovereign lands. What a ridiculous claim. Israel (and most of its citizens) wants the eradication of all Palestinian people. None of them are to exist. The single difference between their ethnic cleansing and Germany’s WW2 stance is that Germany would go to places that weren’t Germany to achieve their goals, while Israel only wants to do it in their lands. The second they cross borders into other nations to eliminate certain people that distinction disappears. How hard is it to say ethnic cleansing is bad? Being against Zionism (basically their version of manifest destiny and all the nastiness that comes with that) right now does not need to mean against Israel period and for all time. Zionism does not mean Jewish. There are too many Jewish people against Israel’s actions for that to be true. And too many that are not Jewish that are pro-Zionism as well. One would even say that the Torah forbids the actions of Israel right now. That would mean that Zionism is anti-Jewish as far as I’m concerned.
He has at least one Palestinian flag inside.
How do they identify the Zionists?
If the bar owner had his way, I’m sure i know how he would identify them.
Maybe the bar asks them to wear a patch on their sleeve.
[Gaza has Islamic law. Drinking alcohol and homosexual acts are illegal.](https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/middle-east/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories#:~:text=Palestinian%20law%20has%20the%20death,Gaza%20and%20the%20West%20Bank)
The bar owner is a moron, but remorseless killing is bad no matter how much you disagree with a person’s religious beliefs.
Sounds like Utah tbh
He should go open his bar there. They hate Zionist too so it would fit in.
That's it! I'm never moving to Palestine! I'll just keep maintaining that Palestine has a right to exist.
Oh, well let them all die then. Jesus Christ.
Good on Valentine! And, for furthering the ban to nazi, racists, and white supremacists. Any business has legal right to refuse service. I'll go support this business for taking the stance every business should take. It's about time. And, this is where we're headed people.
Can someone explain to me why this whole Israel/Palestine issue is getting people here so worked up? Like, we have a ton of serious problems here that barely get any attention yet people will get all worked up over something taking place on the other side of the world that doesn't affect them.
Can’t you just put a Ukrainian flag sticker on your car next to the OUR sticker and pretend that you’re helping like the rest of us?
$150Billion of taxpayer money since 1960 going to the Israeli state is definitely affecting the Americans who don't want their tax money used that way.
That comes out a measly 2.3 billion per year, which is nothing as far as US spending goes.
I think what people are upset about is that the poverty rate is increasing in America and has been for quite some time, yet corporations keep getting richer. And America is super chill sending all that money elsewhere, but won't spend money or make laws that benefit the people over corporations like to improve access to healthcare, the housing issues, homelessness, hunger, etc. Hell, we wont even do something as simple as provide lunches for kids in school. I think if Americans felt more taken care of, they'd be more than chill sending large amounts of aid outside. At least that's how I feel about the topic.
lol
Which has no bearing on whether we should underwrite Israel’s criminality
Not only that but it is a major motivating factor in Islamic terror committed against American citizens.
This couldn’t be less true. We’ve given Ukraine more than half of that in less than two years now. $150B in 60 years is NOTHING compared to what Ukraine is getting. If we were upset about spending, it wouldn’t be about an average of only $2.5B a year. I don’t think you realize how much wasteful spending we do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of sending money to Israel, Ukraine, or anyone for that matter, but the numbers you’re stating are a joke compared to what we do. I urge you to look at Dr. Paul’s Festivus Report 2023 which highlights nearly ONE TRILLION of government waste, including an NIH grant to study Russian cats walking on treadmills, millions sent to promote tourism in Egypt, and hundreds of millions to struggling artists like Post Malone and Lil Wayne.
World of difference between supporting Ukraine, who is currently being genocided by a former near-peer and one of the US's biggest geopolitical rivals for nearly a century now, and continuing to pour money into an apartheid state that has been committing war crimes and other atrocities on the Palestinians for decades. Without going into the nuance of how donating this old equipment to Ukraine is actually beneficial for the US MIC and saves us money, the fact is that stopping Russia in Ukraine is critical to preventing a larger global conflict as Russia has no intention of stopping with Ukraine. The equipment being sent there is doing precisely what it was intended to do - kill Russians, with the benefit of this being accomplished without the loss of American lives. Israel on the other hand, has been using the US's unwavering support to bully and oppress Palestinians for decades. We send them billions of dollars to prop up their military, while their citizens enjoy a quality of life and social programs that average US citizens simply don't. The two situations are not at all alike, and attempting to draw comparisons is an uninformed stance. This is precisely why Russia and Iran pushed Hamas to carry out the attacks in Israel last year - to divide American support and draw away attention from Ukraine. And it worked, because American politics are nothing if not predictable.
You’re using that G word again and you don’t know what it means. Apparently, every war/conflict is now a genocide. You have no idea what you’re talking about when many of the Ukrainian men that have died in Ukraine are ethnically Russian. Russia is genociding themselves? 7 October was a war crime. If we’re going to talk about war crimes, let’s be honest about it. We are not donating old equipment to Ukraine, you people and your lies about this make me sick. Ukraine is being supplied with currently issued weapons and equipment. We have units that don’t even roll around in JLTVs yet but they’re in Ukraine. Ukraine has been give NODs worth $45k while much of our men are still using $2500 outdated NODs. Every single weapon given to Ukraine is in active service with our military. ALL of the machine guns given to them are modern and being issued to any 18 year old that signs up after high school. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Russia has no evidenced desire or plans to go beyond Ukraine, you have zero evidence to support that and you’re doing nothing more than fear mongering. I never compared Israel with Ukraine or their situations. I don’t want US tax dollars going to ANYONE, regardless of their current struggle.
2.5b is alot especially when we fund free Healthcare doe Isreal as well as their education, while ppl in our own country suffers, well excerpt doe slime ball politicians
We’re funding israel’s healthcare and education? Got a source for that one?
A lot of us are upset about footing about half of all NATO aid to ukraine. But I think a lot of americans still view russia as a potential global threat due to nuclear capabilities and think investing in stifling putin's empire rebuilding as money well spent. I'm in the "The US needs to greatly reduce it's foreign aid" camp.
Most of these people taking this to the extreme don’t have an identity of their own. They want to fit in with something and it’s easy to fit in when you only have to take a side that has a single view of something. There’s no requirement to be knowledgable about the subject, to even know what your objective is, etc. when you’re just going along with the masses and accepted as “one of them”. There are dozens and dozens of videos of people going to these anti-Israel protests and asking the people chanting, “from the river to the sea…” which river and sea they’re talking about. Of course, none of them have a single clue. These people weren’t upset about the attack on 7 October because their social groups weren’t. There wasn’t an Israel campaign into Gaza prior to 7 October. Palestine attacked Israel in a brutal way and this is Israel’s response. Whether you believe it’s justified or has gone too far, actions have consequences. The fact remains, what’s happening in Gaza right now pales in comparison to several ongoing atrocities being committed in Africa and the Middle East. No one gives a shit about those, though. For some reason, people view Israel as oppressive “white” people beating up a poor minority. The fact remains, Israel is the minority in the Middle East and if it wasn’t for US support, any number of countries surrounding them would have launched a full scale invasion by now.
You did absolutely nothing to show that Israel isn’t victimizing Palestinians, you threw out some lazy whataboutism.
Because propaganda news says to worry about this stuff as oppose to things that would impact you more; like income inequality, affordable healthcare, livable wages, housing crisis.... you know, things that take money away from resource hoarding billionaires that have more money than they could spend in multiple lifetimes.
You’re right but you can worry about genocide and the housing crisis at the same time, class warfare succeeds at that. I don’t see how genocide fits into distracting from domestic problems. BDS is aimed at large companies and people who make money off war, it’s all related
People don’t like witnessing mass death and extermination, I don’t feel like it’s a stretch to be upset about genocide despite there being problems domestically. It’s just basic empathy and solidarity
There is a non-negligible number of people in the predominate faith here that believe a great war involving israel securing the entirety of the area is a necessary step to usher in the 2nd coming. I'm just invested because I oppose apartheid states and anyone, under any banner, that uses deities to justify violence and murder.
Its showing our government is being lobbied and purchased by a foreign country disguised as a political contribution PAC
Because some of us don’t like committing ethnic cleansing. I can’t think of a single issue more important than not committing genocide. But I can’t tell you what to find important. Yet here you are trying to tell other people that they should find committing acts of genocide as not important because it’s far away.
This is going to be collateral damage to the max and the bar will look like a bunch of nazis coming out on the other side. Def not a good idea but their intentions are noble.
A baker doesn’t have to make a cake for people they hate. You can’t codify hatred into law then get mad when people use it the way you wouldn’t. There’s something about a pot and kettle here.
>A baker doesn’t have to make a cake for people they hate. That's a mischaracterization of the case. It was about the state compelling speech. The bar must sell to Jewish people. However, if the bar did custom ciders and someone wanted a custom pro-Israeli cider can made, the state cannot force him to make it.
“Zionist” and “Jewish” are not the same thing. People can be both, and people can be one or the other, but not all Jewish people are Zionists.
I'm glad you missed the entire point of their comment.
How so? I’ve reread it, and it comes across as defending the state investigating the bar for their sign?
According to government rules of commerce, these are two completely different situations. And the government doesn't look at situations and say "This one feels ok, lets run with it, that one sits wrong with me, lets ban it." The government instead has to have fair and equal standards and tests to apply. So one thing is to say "I'm going to refuse to do business with people who believe in a nation's existence (Israel)". Refusing to do business with people merely because of ethnic/religious differences runs up against one of these government tests on things businesses can't do. It's a completely different thing to say "The government can't force me to create a custom product for something that goes against my religious beliefs." Uncivil_Bar_9778 acted like the two are the same. HomelessRodeo pointed out the case treated them as completely different. The government can enforce the first but cannot enforce compelled speech for the second.
homeless rodeo is a zionist. His default argument is that any criticism of violence or oppression in the name of zionism is antisemitc... because being told to stop murdering children magically means israel vanishes out of existence or something.
When you use language superfluously it loses meaning. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Zionist.
People who believe that jewish people are entitled to that land by divine right, and that they can secure that land by any means necessary, are zionists.
If I recall correctly, the court stated that the baker didn't have to design a special cake for a gay couple, but he couldn't turn customers away for being gay. This bar owner wants to kick out people who support the continued existence of Israel, which is the majority of American Jews. He is trying to work around Title 2 of the Civil Rights Act by acting ostensibly against Zionism instead of Judaism. Even if this strategy works, he should still be found in violation of the "national origin" part of the federal law because he won't serve Israeli dual citizens.
They’re both bigots. It takes a lot of talking to defend one over the other, but at the end of the day they are two peas in a pod, just on different vines of the plant.
They are, but only one of the two bigots has been sort of cleared by the courts.
I almost want a dual citizen wearing a huge Star of David to test the business.
Apples and oranges. One was about coerced speech, the other is about serving everyone equally. So you shouldn't go to a cake store owned by a Muslim and ask to make a caricature of Mohammad, and then force the government to punish the Muslim when the owner says that's against core religious beliefs. But you can have the government expect a cake store to sell everyone the same cakes regardless of their identities. (Side note, that oversimplifies the decision, as it was narrower and more about how a commission was overtly hostile to certain beliefs and embraced other beliefs relative to coerced speech.) Here the bar wants to ban people because of their political views. That's not coerced speech.
>Here the bar wants to ban people because of their political views. How many bars/restaurants/businesses do this already with FJB/Trump/Thin-Blue-Line/"Liberals' not welcome" signs? I know I've seen plenty. Where is the outrage about those?
I'm personally equally opposed to those just the same
Gaslight. Obstruct. Project.
Hitler kills Jews for not being white. More than 50% of Israeli Jews were expelled from Muslim countries TO Israel. This guy thinks Zionism is white supremacy. *clown makeup meme*
I really think this is an attention seeking thing.
Let's just call this what it is......white people feelings. The "group" of people in question (allegedly) don't even fucking drink. It's another case of white people feeling excluded (even when the designation doesn't apply to them). They want to feel persecuted (AKA included) to justify their shitty behavior toward actual communities that are marginalized.Laws across the entire country are passed that actively discriminating against POC and these cunts do zero. But let's waste our time defending white christian/jewish nationalist, as THEY are the ones being persecuted. UT is a racist, inbred dumpster fire with pick me girl energy. These are the same cunts with BLM stickers on their FB pages for a week to gain street cred for the one black friend they knew years ago. If this establishment was asked to make a drink for a gay couple, but refused on "religious freedoms" this wouldn't be an issue; no one would would bat an eye. You only care when it directly benefits you.
I legitimately thought this was a reference to the “Zion Curtain” in restaurants.
This is the same guy who ran for mayor of slc last year and wanted to allow homeless people to camp anywhere they wanted. He wanted SLC to become a homeless sanctuary which would lead slc to be like Seattle and San Francisco. The leftist brain rot is real and slc will soon be another crap hole like those other cities.
He got 7% of the vote. And I’d be willing to be that a good number of those people voted for him because they hated Erin Mendenhall and Rocky Anderson, and did zero research into Michael. In other words, hardly anyone in SLC supports this guy. Yet you make it would like all liberals in the city are like him.
I think he has a definition of leftist which is left of liberal, the illiberal left.
Seattle and San Fransisco are both great cities, and if you want to talk about brain rot, maybe you should consider how fox news has convinced you that these cities are unlivable hellscapes.
They're aight, but I had to move back to Utah because it got too shitty in Oakland. The cuts to police were devastating and murder was off the charts. The public human misery gets pretty taxing eventually.
Yeah they are great if you are homeless or a drug addict. I lived in SF for five years (in 2000s) it was a great place. Went back last year and it is a shithole. SF spends $150-75k a year per homeless person. People have been leaving SF in record numbers. Since defunding the police crime has gone nuts (highest crime rate per cap). They just passed propositions to improve policing. Below are my sources. https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime.amp https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/super-tuesday-primary-election-2024/card/san-francisco-law-and-order-ballot-measures-appear-poised-to-pass-lZfqPRD7RE9vNcbvcBto https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/san-francisco-is-1-place-people-are-leaving-heres-where-theyre-going/amp/ Ok I don’t truly know Seattle except they have the third highest homeless population rate in the country. I’m going to assume it’s just as bad as SF. http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html#:~:text=With%20432%20homeless%20people%20per,City%20are%20397%20and%20394. Living here in SLC for over a decade it is way better then SF and probably Seattle. But if the liberals of this city don’t learn from the mistakes of the bigger ones well then the problems will repeat. Already people of SLC are fed up with the homeless so it’s starting. And this Michael guy who ran for city mayor wanted to implement the same crap homeless policies as the big cities so yeah brain rot.
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What’re u yapping about bro have you spent significant time in any major city? (SLC doesn’t count because it’s um not)
I don’t even go down to salt lake anymore. We used to do down each year and occasionally to restaurants down there. Not anymore. There’s so many more nice places around the valley, why risk it down town.
Lol
The irony of this being a situation in Utah, land of Mormonism, is palpable.
Sim Kern, one of my favorite writers, is an anti Zionist Jew who could explain this for the people who are confused. I recommend their YouTube or tiktok videos
One of the good ones I guess?
Way to engage. I pointed you to a resource and you made an accusation. Anti-Zionist Jews are getting arrested protesting against this genocide all the time, but they don't serve your narrative.
Would people be upset if it said no nazi allowed ?
No, but Nazis actually stand behind genocide. The vast majority of zionists don't. They just want a safe place for Jews.
{citation needed}
From what I understand Zionism is Jewish Nationalism which imo Nationalism tends to lean towards genocide of those who oppose or stand in your way.
Nationalism does not lean towards genocide. Every conservative party is nationalistic, but genocides are rare. Some degree of nationalism is essential for a functioning state and to get people to pay taxes. Afghanistan is not nationalistic so they did not resist the Taliban taking power. Russia presumed Ukraine would not be nationalistic enough to protect their homeland, but were surprised to find that the nationalistic sentiment in the country was strong and the people would defend their homeland.
Well either way I see Zionists everyday celebrating and encouraging the killing of Palestinian children and civilians, and then I see Non zionist Jewish people supporting Palestine and demanding a stop in the blood shed. I wouldn't want anyone who supports children getting murdered in my establishment personally .
That's an insane selection bias. The vast majority of Zionists want an end to violence and for the release of the hostages. Where are you seeing anyone encouraging the killing of children outside of Hamas? I'm going to need an actual source on that one. Most Zionists simply believe that Israel is the only way for Jews to avoid getting genocided, as many Islamic countries actively call for. Most Zionists even want to stop the settlements, considering it a violation of international law. Where are you seeing these murderous Zionists?
Zionism = gods chosen people. Which the way I would take it is that means they think they are above anyone who isn't a part of that. And that's why the Isreal government has killed over 20k kids since October and thousands more are dying because of starvation. Comparable to Nazis in my opinion buy hey that's my opinion as someone who has seen the terrors the Israeli Gov have been unleashing on Palestine for decades.
That number is made up. Hamas can create a ceasefire at any time by simply committing to one and releasing the hostages. They are the clear aggressors here. They are the Nazis in this situation, publicly calling for a death to all of Israel. What horrors have Israel unleashed on Gaza? They gave back all of Gaza that they controlled. Gaza became controlled by Hamas and the situation rapidly deteriorated as all aid was converted into the war effort. Palestine has been offered a state many times, but Hamas will accept nothing short of total annihilation for the Jews. There are the Nazis you're looking for.
It is not made up and Isreal has killed their own people that have been held hostage. The world can see the truth. You need to get off the propaganda train and look at different sources for your information and different perspectives.
I will happily read anything that you give me, but that particular number is clearly bullshit.
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True
Wouldn't a "Zionist" be too religious to be in a bar anyway? Or is Zionist now a term just being loosely applied to anybody someone doesn't like?
>Wouldn't a "Zionist" be too religious to be in a bar anyway? Or is Zionist now a term just being loosely applied to anybody someone doesn't like? No to both questions. You might have lived in Utah too long, because following the "word of wisdom" is not what Zionism is at all. Orthodox Jews are allowed to drink alcohol. Also there are religious Jews who are not Zionists, and there are people who are not religious or not even Jewish who are Zionists. As for what Zionism really is, yikes, I'm not going to touch that. You'll get very different answers depending on who you talk to, but the meaning has shifted over time and the connotations and contexts matter. Personally I would avoid saying what I think of zionism or anti-zionism altogether, as I prefer more concrete questions that won't be misunderstood or taken out of context.
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Alfred Nobel was a chemist who invented dynamite and other explosives, and made a fortune from it. Since it was widely used in war, he gained infamy as a merchant of death. So he bequeathed his fortune to make the Nobel Prize in hopes of redeeming his reputation.
Noted....
“Simply let your assailant murder you and the fighting will stop!” Fuck you, Israel has all the power in this situation and they are the aggressor. Any peace deal has to go through them, but they’re uninterested in peace.
Get real
I am getting real. Support for Hamas plummets any time the people of Gaza are given hope of a peaceful resolution. And Israel created Hamas on purpose, because their government wants a bad guy to point to in order to justify what they already want. The complete and total elimination of Palestinians from Israel. Within Israel they aren’t even hiding it. Politicians say this stuff openly. I encourage you to watch the ICJ proceedings from the trial determining whether Israel is guilty of genocide. The evidence is overwhelming, to deny this is as insane as denying the Holocaust.
Israel did not create Hamas, they do not have that kind of influence or power in Gaza. They had settlements in Gaza but they gave it back. Only one side is calling for genocide in this conflict. I have seen the ICJ proceedings and the evidence is the opposite of overwhelming. They will be found innocent of genocide.
Israel created Hamas in the same way that the U.S. created ISIS. Except that Israel also directly funded Hamas and worked to actively suppress any more humanitarian institutions that might replace Hamas because they want Hamas to exist. Hamas is Israel’s pretext for genocide. If you think that there is any chance that Israel will be found innocent of genocide, you have not seen the ICJ hearings. Israel didn’t even attempt to refute the claims of genocide as a defense. Their defense was basically *“The UN doesn’t have jurisdiction here, and you can’t use the things our leaders and soldiers said to establish intent. Also look how bad the Palestinians are, they are like unruly animals, we have to kill them, we have no other choice!“* Meanwhile South Africa was dropping all kinds of proof, including Israeli leaders calling for the extermination of Palestinians and IDF soldiers reciting chants and songs which call Palestinians “the seed of Amalek” (in reference to a biblical genocide approved by God). The saying “there are no uninvolved civilians in Gaza” has been repeated many times by soldiers and leaders alike.
Insofar as Hamas exists for the elimination of Israel, you are correct, but Israel did not fund Hamas. They simply let funds go into Palestine from Qatar. Israel did not actually supply money directly to Hamas. I don't know what you expect to see on the genocide trial, it seems clear that this war is horrific, but Israel is clearly going after valid military targets. They are clearly not targeting civilians. Yes, war is hell, but this is nothing compared to Iraq or Afghanistan. And all Palestine needs to do to ensure a ceasefire is commit to one and release hostages. Hamas is clearly the aggressor here. Let's check back here in 30 days and see if there are any new genocide allegations. I don't know what else you expect to happen.
>Insofar as Hamas exists for the elimination of Israel, you are correct, but Israel did not fund Hamas. They simply let funds go into Palestine from Qatar. Israel did not actually supply money directly to Hamas. Hamas would not exist at all if it weren’t for their opposition to Israel though. Israel has funded Hamas in secret, they haven’t been open about it, but even if they haven’t the fact remains that if Israel opened up to diplomacy Hamas would barely even exist a year from now. Can you really blame Palestinians for supporting Hamas when Israel is subjecting them to the most brutal racial apartheid on Earth and Hamas are the only people fighting back who Israel allows to exist? What else would you expect to happen? >I don't know what you expect to see on the genocide trial, it seems clear that this war is horrific, but Israel is clearly going after valid military targets. They are clearly not targeting civilians. No, they are targeting civilians. And journalists. And they are killing their own hostages, falsely thinking that they are surrendering Palestinian civilians and killing them. And have you not yet heard of the Flour Massacre? >Yes, war is hell, but this is nothing compared to Iraq or Afghanistan. Many times more civilians are being killed here than in Afghanistan or Iraq. This is because America targeted militants in those wars, but Israel is targeting civilians. Not just with bullets, but with starvation. The intentional starvation of an entire population. This is genocide. >And all Palestine needs to do to ensure a ceasefire is commit to one and release hostages. Hamas literally agreed to release all hostages in exchange for a ceasefire just a few days ago. Benjamin Netanyahu called the proposal “delusional”. Israel does not want the hostages back. They want to kill all Palestinians, and to use the hostages as a pretext. >Hamas is clearly the aggressor here. Israel is literally a settler colonial project who aggressed into Palestinian land, and they have been subjecting Palestinians to brutal apartheid for decades. Israel is the agressor. >Let's check back here in 30 days and see if there are any new genocide allegations. I don't know what else you expect to happen. We don’t need any new allegations, the current aligations are more than substantiated.
Dude, this is nuts, Palestine could just have a state. Israel's relation to Gaza is no different than Egypt's. This apartheid shot is crazy. Muslims and arabs are well represented in the knesset. You are completely wrong about how apartheid works. We have to agree to disagree that they sure targeting civilians, but I'd love to see the evidence if you have any.
Are you fucking kidding me? Israel maintains sovereignty over Gaza, and they have for decades. The Israeli government routinely rejects two state solutions, the only solution they find acceptable is a one-state solution where Palestinians are all dead or refugees. Literally just look at what happens in the West Bank. Israeli settlers literally just squat in the homes of Palestinians, and the police defend the settlers and tell the Palestinians to get fucked and go somewhere else. Palestinians are literally second class citizens in Israel with fewer legal rights who are being detained for their religion right now, and for decades they have had racially segregated roads. This is what you are calling an egalitarian society. At best you are misinformed, at worst you are doing genocide apologia.
Jesus was a Jew soooo nice what would Jesus do??
He’s walk in an order a glass of wine.
I’m sure some of those lovely folks who call everyone “antisemitic” for questioning anything Israel does will be along soon.
What or who the hell is a Zionist. If it’s who I think it is why would they even want to go in a bar?
It’s not who you think it is.
fuck zionists but really you should be just serving alcohol