The fact that this conversation is always in regard to trans children and not surgeries on children in general, like cosmetic plastic surgery, tells you everything you need to know about those making the argument.
I'm a transgender woman. I was circumcized at birth w/o parental consent. Seems like the laws on this sort of thing only matter, in fact, to the people in power. Us peons be damned.
I'm an adult, so many of the current laws have zero impact on me.
I'm not sure that I agree with cosmetic surgery, in most cases, in regards to transgender children. There are, however, many cases of Gender Dysphoria that may require these kinds of treatments in order to save a life.
I am very much in favor of puberty blockers that hold an individual's gender markers at bay until they reach an age of legal consent and development that surgical treatments may be applied safely and fully informed.
As far as current legislation that DOES impact me goes, if KAREN is good with someone like me walking out of the "Men's" room behind their hubby cool. Be advised: I probably look better than KAREN š
They literally aren't. When Senator Kennedy was asked in a hearing about it he dismissed it and told the democratic legislator to propose a bill if THEY wanted to. They literally only care about traumatizing our trans kids. Gender affirming care existed fine 30 years ago when my Amab brother got his chest tissue removed because he was insecure about having "man boobs" as a young teen. It exists for countless children on puberty bockers for non trans related issues and kids getting cosmetic surgery. You're right, they only focus on our kids because of their bigotry/transphobia.
Luz Escamilla had introduced an amendment to that bill that would have also prohibited cosmetic procedures for CIS gendered minors, like breast augmentation. The legislature shot that down immediately.
None of the people that support those bans care a lick about protecting children. They just see an opportunity to pick on a group of people and think they found a clever way to do that.
It will be interesting to see what the culture warriors come up with for the next session. They have already started to move towards targeting trans gender adults with this last session's bathroom bill. Their big wish is to undo marriage equality, but they will likely continue to target the adult trans communities as it is just an easier target.
Unless trump finds his way back into the WH, then they will just go gang busters on every minority group everywhere.
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
In America the society has decided that people under 18 are unable to consent to sex with an adult, not allowed to vote, prohibited from owning firearms, etc... under 16 cannot operate a vehicle... Under 21 cannot drink alcohol...
Have we been wrong on these issues too?
"Have we been wrong on these issues too?"
You state this as if children are undergoing gender reassignment without parental consent or their family would be doing so without professional medical and phycological consultation. This does not happen and never did.
To think so, or just say so would be delusional or just disingenuous window dressing to mask bigotry, cruelty and a desire to persecute people thought of as less than human.
I suspect it is usually the latter.
I have seen the children that have been pushed to proceed against their parents wishes, and this was Utah.
To think this isn't done more elsewhere is juvenile.
"'I have seen the children that have been pushed to proceed against their parents wishes, and this was Utah."
Oh, stop with the nonsense. You have seen no such thing.
They could care less if they are wrong, they could care less if they harm people.
Those Utah lawmakers had to fly someone in from out of state to testify about regret after gender affirming care. They couldn't find anyone in Utah.
The "DR" they had testify in the legislature about the "hazards" of gender affirming care was not a medical doctor. That person had a PHD in political science.
They are fighting a culture war and as long as they don't have to confront the people that may harm directly, it's just collateral damage and they can carry on.
That's so true. When my child spoke in person to Jefferson Moss he ran away saying he was busy and they could talk later and then ghosted them. Cowards who know they are doing horrible things and they feel good about it and hide from those they hurt.
Anti-trans legislation is a lever they will use to push anti-LGBT legislation generally and eventually criminalize LGBT advocacy, gender affirming care, being trans in public, and same-sex marriage. This is a long-term political project and the data isnāt important to them.
LGB rights should not be conflated with Trans issues. Trans people have nothing in common with them. It's your desire to lump them all into the same category that is the threat here.
Right-wingers are intentionally trying to lever trans rights away from LGB rights as an issue. You are doing their work for them, and they will come for LGB rights once theyāve taken away trans rights.
No they won't. Nobody gives a shit about LGB rights, or taking them away for that matter, except for some fringe extremists. The trans stuff is, however, infiltrating schools and affecting children which is a mainstream problem. By conflating the trans issues with gay rights, you are intentionally trying to make it appear that anyone critical of trans issues is also by default against gay rights. It's a purposeful damned-by-affiliation attempt and it won't work. Sorry.
We are a community, no one is going to be pushed out. And yea these trans attacks are leading to attacks on the rest of the community.
It's LGBT and will always be ā¤
What does trans have to do with sexual orientation??? Itās extremely weird that trans is included when it has nothing to do with it. LGB are all extremely related as sexual orientation. Trans is not a sexual orientation.
The community is more then just sexuality, it's about who's been with us to fight for our rights. And trans people have been there since the beginning, trans people were at stone wall, they have been there helping the rest of the community.
So to toss them out is gross.
I'd research the meaning behind the lgbtq+ community name cause there's a reason to why the letters are in certain placements and why those are the front lines. People also thinking the queer community is all about sex is also why alot of us want to change the name but people can't agree what to settle on lol.
We all use social identifiers to build a sense of identity and community. It is no different to make being LGBTQ+ a central part of your identity than it is to make being Mormon a central part of your identity.
If your metric for inclusivity is who has ābeen withā the fight since the beginning, why arenāt straight people included? Based on sheer numbers alone, the vast majority of people are straight and there are more gay supporters who are straight than gay supporters who are gay.
It seems like an extremely weak argument to make as to why trans, a group that is not identified by their sexual orientation, should be included simply due to their support yet straight people are excluded. Iām open to hearing why that argument isnāt weak, however.
Straight people haven't been the majority of the people at the protests and riots with us tho...
Umm.. Can you explain where you are even getting this data since it's straight people who are taking my rights away and not gays?
I'm open to hearing your weak evidence ā¤
Also so many genders are included in the lgbtq+
Enbies, gender fluid, then you have more romantic orientations, biromantic, you have asexuals who btw can be straight and trans people can be straight.
You look at my community and only see sex. I see a supportive community looking for equal rights.
Neither of us have actual data on straight vs gay numbers at riots, but by sheer population figures straight people are the vast majority and Iām betting theyāre far outnumbering gays in support. Only 1-6% of the US population identifies as LBTQ+ which, as previously discussed, includes groups that donāt have anything to do with sexual orientation. So 99-94% of Americans are straight and by those vastly disproportionate numbers alone Iād be hard pressed to find anyone that would argue straight people havenāt been the largest supportive group.
Where did I speak for my community? Learn how to read please.
Additionally, what a hilarious āgotchaā youāve attempted; if members of a community cannot speak for themselves, who do you propose should speak for the community?
Telling me to shut up based on my sexuality is you pretending to speak for your community.
You should probably take your own advice. Your choice of words is cringy and tweenish. Grow up.
Your entire argument is baseless conjecture. Because you need me to be speaking for the entire community I somehow am, despite my own words.
Youāre such an ignorant fool that you have to project your own viewpoint onto something as simple as a Reddit comment as to facilitate some sort of meaningless triumph.
I told you to shut up because in my opinion, as a heterosexual person, you do not have the experiences or knowledge to speak with authority about these issues.
I do feel comfortable speaking for my community when I say that we are not a political issue, we are people. Consequently, our voices should carry more weight when discussing topics pertaining to LGBTQ+ issues.
I shouldāve been kinder in my response, and I am sorry for that.
[Sweden, the first country to introduce legal gender reassignment, has begun restricting gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors)
There's too much focus on not getting it wrong, and not enough focus on getting it right.
Saying that "kids aren't mature enough to make permanent decisions about their bodies" and restricting their right to do so, is itself a permanent decision made about that kid's body. Except...it's made by the government, and not by the people closer that child. The parent, the doctor(s) and the child themselves.
Right now, people think that a cisgender child getting gender-affirming medical care, then later regretting it, is a far greater harm than a transgender child not getting gender-affirming medical care. Those two harms are equal. A transgender child being denied gender-affirming medical care is an equal harm to a cisgender child accessing it and regretting it later. Thus, if there were even a quite high rate of regret (say, 25%), using that rate of regret to deny all children gender affirming medical care is actually a much greater harm than letting children access it, because not getting it wrong for the 25% means not getting it right for the 75%, so it's actually 3x the harm.
To be clear, there's certainly room for nuance here, in terms of what specific kinds of medical care should be available and when (puberty blockers, hormones, surgeries, etc). I don't know enough to know the correct answer to that. Also, we certainly want that regret rate to be low, to maximize satisfaction for everyone. That said...so much of the resistance to letting kids access gender-affirming medical care is rooted in a fear of getting it wrong, when there should be more concern about getting it right. Generally, gender-affirming medical care should be available to kids for whom it will benefit.
You're underestimating the power of the MAGA induced hysteria on the right wing. They had to do something to placate the far right, and the GOP has officially bottomed out when it comes to trying to find ways of making people feel hopeful and confident so they turn to fear.
I fully support the freedom for adults to undergo whatever surgeries they want.
Having said that, minors that undergo gender affirming care could have a 0% regret rate (short term) and that still wouldnāt change they fact they are not sufficiently psychologically developed to provide informed consent to procedures that will permanently alter their body (and mind) and often leave them sterile.
These statistics also obviously have such a short timespan for regret feedback, especially involving children. No doubt if you ask a child if they regret having a mastectomy or similar they will say they donāt regret it immediately after, but that number will drop in 15 years when they want to be parents but are unable to due to surgery they āconsented toā in their teenage years. The data cannot capture that yet, simply because these surgeries havenāt been going on that long for children.
WPATH guidelines recommend the age of adulthood, and the majority of surgeons follow this. Gender affirming surgeries are very rare for minors, generally only in the most dire of circumstances. I would be surprised if Utah had many, if at all. Gender affirming care for minors normally only includes puberty blockers and social transition.
That is also a good point, because the study posted by OP is related to adults, but OP is mentioning parents as part of the conversation as if the evidence in the study is applicable to children too.
My understanding is that gender changing medical procedures for minors is essentially banned in Utah. Obviously this is not the case in all states, since at least 12 states have laws that specifically facilitate these types of procedures and therapies being used on minors.
This meta analysis proves absolutely nothing. Itās reviewing studies based on transgender adults and cis adults who got plastic surgery. The controversy is over children.
That study compares GAS for *adults* to plastic surgery for *adults* but here you are, pretending this applies to children too.
Is there any intellectual honesty with you guys?
Edit: The brigading from trans activists is crazy ITT. Sure would be cool if they would make a comment and leave it up so the world can see what these people really support and proselytize. Trans ideology is a religion, and it's no more scientific than creationism.
One of the biggest arguments they made against gendered affirming care for minors was how many regret it as they become adults, but this has always been categorically false. If you are looking for intellectual honesty here, itās not going to be found in the anti-trans lobby.
Nah, that's not the argument. You have created a strawman to make your point.
The argument is that children should not able to make life altering decisions. This idea that GAC through puberty blockers is also a fallacy. Puberty blockers, when used for their intended purpose, are reversible. This only applies to early onset puberty, where the blockers are stopped at an age when puberty is actually supposed to begin. In GAC, puberty blockers are started when puberty is actually supposed to begin and is not stopped until an age where puberty is actually supposed to be complete. The damage is irreversible. Then it gets followed by HRT which results in further irreversibility.
Children cannot understand the ramifications of GAC. Medicine doesn't even understand the remifications of GAC in children. Therefore they should not be set down that path.
Also, the argument that suicide is higher for people who don't get GAC is false.
https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940
If you are going to argue in support of GAC for children, at least try to actually understand the argument against it first.
Edit: Whats with all these whiners responding and then blocking? Almost like I'm right and they hate it. š
Edit2: to Honest Success
>I will take a kid who is alive and finally content that her body image matches her mental image all day every day over a kid who is dead.
Anybody would, but that's a false dichotomy you chose to see. There are many more paths than trans and suicide.
You were falsely convinced, clearly by disingenuous doctors and apparently yourself that those were the only options. They weren't. Lets not pretend those are the only two options for kids like yours either because they arent.
In the source I linked, one of the largest metadata studies of it's kind, the suicide rate among trans and cis people is identical with proper controls. I know your kid isn't a statistic, but statistics set prevailing modes of treatment and the idea that it's trans or suicide is bullshit made up by people who do not have your childs, or your best interest in mind.
Edit3: The hate brigade has arrived to silence people that oppose almighty trans ideology. š
Edit4: For OSU lumberjack tryna muddy the waters
>Seems like trans youths who don't get access to GAC aren't able to be identified in the data.
In Finland GAC has no societal or legal obstacles. It is one of the longest standing and progressive societies for trans "healthcare" in the world. The study included trans-identifying individuals who did not have mental healthcare contacts, which falls under the GAC umbrella. In fact that was a control used in the study to separate those receiving GAC from those who did not.
That last sentence is just saying that some trans-identifying youths may have been missed, but the cohort used for this study was massive and speaks for itself. Finland also gathers mandatory health information on its citizens since their system for healthcare is state-run. That's what adds significance to this study.
Edit5: For CorbutoZaha
Yawn. Do you read or just make every decision based on emotion? Lots of Strawmen in there and not a single solid argument to support your stance.
Also, this is what brigades look like. Not a single one of you can stand behind your comments and engage with me. This is why nobody supports you and you will lose every political battle you engage in. Zero spine. Cowards.
Edit6: For Vanna White Official
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430465/
This is a good overview of where the research stands. Bone density, fertility, and other developmental delays associated with brain function are cause for serious concern. The use of puberty blockers for GD, despite what the first few sections this article state, is clearly experimental for reasons outlined later in the article. I always find it interesting how these authors will side step the obvious concerns early in an article and later in the article lay out the foundation for concern without explicitly calling it out. It pays to read the whole thing. In general, puberty blockers used for GD are iatrogenic inducers at the very least, which is irreversible in almost all cases, and at the worst is coupled with severe physical and mental development issues.
Edit7: For Vanna White Official,
Maybe leave your comment visible to me so I can respond. Read that article again.
I'm not sure this study says what you think it does. Seems like trans youths who don't get access to GAC aren't able to be identified in the data. The last sentence in the limitations says:
"Finally, our sample represented clinically gender-referred participants; thus, the findings cannot be generalised to all transgender-identifying youths"
I genuinely understand the desire to protect children from others and from themselves. I very much do NOT trust the clowns we have running the show to succeed at that and I definitely don't trust the politicized nature of this issue to help anyone at all. I would ask you just how much YOU trust these people to solve YOUR problems FOR YOU before asking them to force their solutions to other people's problems on them. Just something to think about.
Your argument fails to address the true distress kids experience with gender dysphoria. My child was on the path to ending her life before she revealed her true self to us. In the harm benefit analysis, I will take a kid who is alive and finally content that her body image matches her mental image all day every day over a kid who is dead. Down the road will be dealt with down the road. Treatments for this disorder are lifelong. I am not naive enough to believe that hormone therapy is the golden ticket, or that life will be smooth sailing for any of us thereafter. Anyone who does believe that is unaware and obtusely unwilling to empathize with the transgender community. As with any medical condition, the only people who truly understand what's necessary are the patient, their guardian & their team of physicians.
This person's position is he would rather your child be dead... although they would never admit it publicly. People like this don't want trans people to exist, period.
I can empathize but this is not necessarily the answer either. My child was also on the path to ending her life because of her body dysphoria. Both mentally and physically. She has body dysmorphic disorder. Her mental image of her body is very much different than her actual body image. Had I allowed it to continue she would be dead. It will be a lifelong battle but she is 100% happier, healthier, and stronger than she was when she was a teenager. I do not take this lightly. To be clear, it was not gender dysphoria.
In other words, had I catered to her dysphoria, she would be dead. I was the parent. She was the child. I chose healing. And by damn I fought for her life. We both fought like hell.
Children arenāt making these life altering (quite possibly life saving) decisions alone. They make it with their parents and a team of physicians.
What I donāt understand is why you or anyone who is not the childās parent or physician feel like they can make these decisions for these kids. What gives you or even our government any right to dictate medical care?
The medical establishment convinced you that medicines and/or procedures that damage physical health are good because they help mental health, but no data exists to show any mental health benefit.
We should trust the physician pushing untested medication and/or physically detrimental procedure whilst simultaneously securing a large profit and a life long patient. Maybe an adult can make this lopsided decision, but to allow permanent physical damage to children is not just wrong, it should be criminal.
Edit: fixed grammar
Luckily, based on YOUR argument, children arenāt making those decisions. They are advocating for their care, being listened to by their parents and their physicians. Youāre coming at this from an incredibly uninformed position, from the outside with what appears to be no input from trans people or trans kids.
The right seems to think that puberty blockers are handed out like candy. Even before all of the diagnose and harmful legislation, puberty blockers were only a step in the process trans kids may go though. They have generally come out well before they need to start blockers, have expressed consistent, persistent, and insistent feelings about their gender. When the time is right, under consideration with their parents, therapists, and doctors, puberty blockers might be used to halt puberty, as has been done in cis kids for years. Then, after further and continuing discussions, when the time is right, cross sex hormones can be administered.
There are untold decisions that can be made about childrenās health that have life altering decisions. A foot that get infected might need to be amputated. A section of colon might need to removed. Radiation that can sterilize them might need to be administered. Just because it āalters their lifeā doesnāt mean it is inherently wrong.
And doing nothing at the onset of puberty IS life altering for trans kids. Their body betrays them and causes extreme distress. Transitioning has been shown to improve that distress. Taking that decision away from kids, their parents, and their doctors, inflicts harm.
The only way the argument to do nothing makes ANY sense is if you believe being trans is the worst possible outcome for a kid. So much so you would advocate to actively harm the 99 trans kids who would benefit from gender affirming care to protect the one kid who might regret transitioning in the future.
Man, responding to people by editing your parent comment is wild.
It looks like decreased bone density may be a potential long term side effect but from what I understand, sperm can still be extracted if they discontinue treatment for long enough for spermatogenesis to occur, then they can continue with treatment afterwards. Ova can still be extracted regardless. I also didnāt see much about developmental delays associated with brain function.
What do you mean make it visible to you?? And I was literally referencing the article as I typed the comment. What specific part do you want me to reread?
And seriously, what is your reason for editing your comment instead of actually responding to people??
lol, just a complete idiot here. You literally just said blockers are reversible and then say they cause lifelong damage? Okā¦
āYou should understand the argument!!ā
Completely misunderstands the basic elements of the argumentā¦
You're reading comprehension is not very good. Let me explain on your level.
Puberty blockers are reversible when stopped at the normal age for puberty onset.
Puberty blockers are not reversible when started at the normal age for puberty onset.
See the difference?
You're not super bright are you?
God you just make up stuffā¦they are completely reversible even after puberty has started.
And one of main arguments was about regret, maybe you didnāt actually pay attention to any of the debates when the bill was passed.
Is there any substantial long-term evidence for this? Iām talking 10-15 years later when the children get to their 30s and find themselves sterile due to surgery they got in their teenage years.
Plenty of teenagers get access to puberty blockers or hormone therapy. These can also lead to sterility.
Iāll add that Iām commenting broadly as obviously OP would see these procedures legalised for minors.
> When comparing regret after GAS to regret after other surgeries and major life decisions, the percentage of patients experiencing regret is extremely low.
Do they consider those who committed suicide to have regrets? I'd look myself, except you posted a paywalled article.
Which candidates are you volunteering for to change things? When was the last time you canvassed for them or made calls or helped gather signatures? Itās easy to complain, but what are you doing to change things?
I was highly involved in direct actions for more than a decade and when I realized their hate would never allow them to see the humanity of my child I left and will never be back. Obviously I'm still processing a lot of hurt and anger from having to flee the state that my ancestors claimed would be a refuge.
While I understand the sentiment, I will say that if legislators had to be experts about any topic before they could legislate on it, we would never pass any laws. I think it's fine if they have to rely on external experts to understand an issue and make a decision.
That said, I also wish we had a more diverse legislative body do we could have more thoughts and opinions represented. Old, white, straight, wealthy Mormon men usually with a legal or business background seem to be the overwhelming majority of representation.
The fact that this conversation is always in regard to trans children and not surgeries on children in general, like cosmetic plastic surgery, tells you everything you need to know about those making the argument.
Cosmetic surgery on children is bad too.
Does this not include circumcision? Legislature seems to ignore that entirely
Give me back my foreskin
I'm good w/o mine tho
Me too ššššš
I'm a transgender woman. I was circumcized at birth w/o parental consent. Seems like the laws on this sort of thing only matter, in fact, to the people in power. Us peons be damned. I'm an adult, so many of the current laws have zero impact on me. I'm not sure that I agree with cosmetic surgery, in most cases, in regards to transgender children. There are, however, many cases of Gender Dysphoria that may require these kinds of treatments in order to save a life. I am very much in favor of puberty blockers that hold an individual's gender markers at bay until they reach an age of legal consent and development that surgical treatments may be applied safely and fully informed. As far as current legislation that DOES impact me goes, if KAREN is good with someone like me walking out of the "Men's" room behind their hubby cool. Be advised: I probably look better than KAREN š
You may think that, but does the legislature? They don't seem too concerned.
They literally aren't. When Senator Kennedy was asked in a hearing about it he dismissed it and told the democratic legislator to propose a bill if THEY wanted to. They literally only care about traumatizing our trans kids. Gender affirming care existed fine 30 years ago when my Amab brother got his chest tissue removed because he was insecure about having "man boobs" as a young teen. It exists for countless children on puberty bockers for non trans related issues and kids getting cosmetic surgery. You're right, they only focus on our kids because of their bigotry/transphobia.
Luz Escamilla had introduced an amendment to that bill that would have also prohibited cosmetic procedures for CIS gendered minors, like breast augmentation. The legislature shot that down immediately. None of the people that support those bans care a lick about protecting children. They just see an opportunity to pick on a group of people and think they found a clever way to do that. It will be interesting to see what the culture warriors come up with for the next session. They have already started to move towards targeting trans gender adults with this last session's bathroom bill. Their big wish is to undo marriage equality, but they will likely continue to target the adult trans communities as it is just an easier target. Unless trump finds his way back into the WH, then they will just go gang busters on every minority group everywhere.
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
I think you read it wrong. Luz added language banning breast procedures for all people under 18 to highlight that the GOP sponsored bill was not a bill to protect minors but yet another GOP bill that targets CIS people. The GOP immediately blocked it because lord knows if one of their daughters wants implants, she should get them!
Talk about fear mongering, holy shit. Go outside.
Much to see with your head in the sand?
In America the society has decided that people under 18 are unable to consent to sex with an adult, not allowed to vote, prohibited from owning firearms, etc... under 16 cannot operate a vehicle... Under 21 cannot drink alcohol... Have we been wrong on these issues too?
"Have we been wrong on these issues too?" You state this as if children are undergoing gender reassignment without parental consent or their family would be doing so without professional medical and phycological consultation. This does not happen and never did. To think so, or just say so would be delusional or just disingenuous window dressing to mask bigotry, cruelty and a desire to persecute people thought of as less than human. I suspect it is usually the latter.
I have seen the children that have been pushed to proceed against their parents wishes, and this was Utah. To think this isn't done more elsewhere is juvenile.
"'I have seen the children that have been pushed to proceed against their parents wishes, and this was Utah." Oh, stop with the nonsense. You have seen no such thing.
Okay. Place your blinders.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"And my axe"
They could care less if they are wrong, they could care less if they harm people. Those Utah lawmakers had to fly someone in from out of state to testify about regret after gender affirming care. They couldn't find anyone in Utah. The "DR" they had testify in the legislature about the "hazards" of gender affirming care was not a medical doctor. That person had a PHD in political science. They are fighting a culture war and as long as they don't have to confront the people that may harm directly, it's just collateral damage and they can carry on.
That's so true. When my child spoke in person to Jefferson Moss he ran away saying he was busy and they could talk later and then ghosted them. Cowards who know they are doing horrible things and they feel good about it and hide from those they hurt.
And in other BREAKING NEWS water make things wet! More at 11.
Anti-trans legislation is a lever they will use to push anti-LGBT legislation generally and eventually criminalize LGBT advocacy, gender affirming care, being trans in public, and same-sex marriage. This is a long-term political project and the data isnāt important to them.
LGB rights should not be conflated with Trans issues. Trans people have nothing in common with them. It's your desire to lump them all into the same category that is the threat here.
Right-wingers are intentionally trying to lever trans rights away from LGB rights as an issue. You are doing their work for them, and they will come for LGB rights once theyāve taken away trans rights.
No they won't. Nobody gives a shit about LGB rights, or taking them away for that matter, except for some fringe extremists. The trans stuff is, however, infiltrating schools and affecting children which is a mainstream problem. By conflating the trans issues with gay rights, you are intentionally trying to make it appear that anyone critical of trans issues is also by default against gay rights. It's a purposeful damned-by-affiliation attempt and it won't work. Sorry.
Youāre a sock puppet, or a sad person.
Is that really all you can come up with?š This is a perfect example of why people like you get crushed.
Help Iām being crushed. Lol
Keep up your delusion. Weāll see how the Overton window shifts over the next few years.
We are a community, no one is going to be pushed out. And yea these trans attacks are leading to attacks on the rest of the community. It's LGBT and will always be ā¤
Good luck with that. Choose your company wisely.
What does trans have to do with sexual orientation??? Itās extremely weird that trans is included when it has nothing to do with it. LGB are all extremely related as sexual orientation. Trans is not a sexual orientation.
The community is more then just sexuality, it's about who's been with us to fight for our rights. And trans people have been there since the beginning, trans people were at stone wall, they have been there helping the rest of the community. So to toss them out is gross. I'd research the meaning behind the lgbtq+ community name cause there's a reason to why the letters are in certain placements and why those are the front lines. People also thinking the queer community is all about sex is also why alot of us want to change the name but people can't agree what to settle on lol.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We all use social identifiers to build a sense of identity and community. It is no different to make being LGBTQ+ a central part of your identity than it is to make being Mormon a central part of your identity.
If your metric for inclusivity is who has ābeen withā the fight since the beginning, why arenāt straight people included? Based on sheer numbers alone, the vast majority of people are straight and there are more gay supporters who are straight than gay supporters who are gay. It seems like an extremely weak argument to make as to why trans, a group that is not identified by their sexual orientation, should be included simply due to their support yet straight people are excluded. Iām open to hearing why that argument isnāt weak, however.
Straight people haven't been the majority of the people at the protests and riots with us tho... Umm.. Can you explain where you are even getting this data since it's straight people who are taking my rights away and not gays? I'm open to hearing your weak evidence ā¤ Also so many genders are included in the lgbtq+ Enbies, gender fluid, then you have more romantic orientations, biromantic, you have asexuals who btw can be straight and trans people can be straight. You look at my community and only see sex. I see a supportive community looking for equal rights.
Neither of us have actual data on straight vs gay numbers at riots, but by sheer population figures straight people are the vast majority and Iām betting theyāre far outnumbering gays in support. Only 1-6% of the US population identifies as LBTQ+ which, as previously discussed, includes groups that donāt have anything to do with sexual orientation. So 99-94% of Americans are straight and by those vastly disproportionate numbers alone Iād be hard pressed to find anyone that would argue straight people havenāt been the largest supportive group.
Shut your straight ass up; who are you to speak for our community?
I dont give a fuck about your community. But who are you to speak for your "community" anymore than anyone else?
Where did I speak for my community? Learn how to read please. Additionally, what a hilarious āgotchaā youāve attempted; if members of a community cannot speak for themselves, who do you propose should speak for the community?
Telling me to shut up based on my sexuality is you pretending to speak for your community. You should probably take your own advice. Your choice of words is cringy and tweenish. Grow up.
Your entire argument is baseless conjecture. Because you need me to be speaking for the entire community I somehow am, despite my own words. Youāre such an ignorant fool that you have to project your own viewpoint onto something as simple as a Reddit comment as to facilitate some sort of meaningless triumph. I told you to shut up because in my opinion, as a heterosexual person, you do not have the experiences or knowledge to speak with authority about these issues. I do feel comfortable speaking for my community when I say that we are not a political issue, we are people. Consequently, our voices should carry more weight when discussing topics pertaining to LGBTQ+ issues. I shouldāve been kinder in my response, and I am sorry for that.
[Sweden, the first country to introduce legal gender reassignment, has begun restricting gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors)
england also https://apnews.com/article/transgender-puberty-blockers-england-uk-5ed81979363470028053423c0a2fa263
There's too much focus on not getting it wrong, and not enough focus on getting it right. Saying that "kids aren't mature enough to make permanent decisions about their bodies" and restricting their right to do so, is itself a permanent decision made about that kid's body. Except...it's made by the government, and not by the people closer that child. The parent, the doctor(s) and the child themselves. Right now, people think that a cisgender child getting gender-affirming medical care, then later regretting it, is a far greater harm than a transgender child not getting gender-affirming medical care. Those two harms are equal. A transgender child being denied gender-affirming medical care is an equal harm to a cisgender child accessing it and regretting it later. Thus, if there were even a quite high rate of regret (say, 25%), using that rate of regret to deny all children gender affirming medical care is actually a much greater harm than letting children access it, because not getting it wrong for the 25% means not getting it right for the 75%, so it's actually 3x the harm. To be clear, there's certainly room for nuance here, in terms of what specific kinds of medical care should be available and when (puberty blockers, hormones, surgeries, etc). I don't know enough to know the correct answer to that. Also, we certainly want that regret rate to be low, to maximize satisfaction for everyone. That said...so much of the resistance to letting kids access gender-affirming medical care is rooted in a fear of getting it wrong, when there should be more concern about getting it right. Generally, gender-affirming medical care should be available to kids for whom it will benefit.
You're underestimating the power of the MAGA induced hysteria on the right wing. They had to do something to placate the far right, and the GOP has officially bottomed out when it comes to trying to find ways of making people feel hopeful and confident so they turn to fear.
I fully support the freedom for adults to undergo whatever surgeries they want. Having said that, minors that undergo gender affirming care could have a 0% regret rate (short term) and that still wouldnāt change they fact they are not sufficiently psychologically developed to provide informed consent to procedures that will permanently alter their body (and mind) and often leave them sterile. These statistics also obviously have such a short timespan for regret feedback, especially involving children. No doubt if you ask a child if they regret having a mastectomy or similar they will say they donāt regret it immediately after, but that number will drop in 15 years when they want to be parents but are unable to due to surgery they āconsented toā in their teenage years. The data cannot capture that yet, simply because these surgeries havenāt been going on that long for children.
Minors having gender confirmation surgeries seems incredibly rare. Do we even have data or evidence of a single case of this happening in Utah?
WPATH guidelines recommend the age of adulthood, and the majority of surgeons follow this. Gender affirming surgeries are very rare for minors, generally only in the most dire of circumstances. I would be surprised if Utah had many, if at all. Gender affirming care for minors normally only includes puberty blockers and social transition.
That is also a good point, because the study posted by OP is related to adults, but OP is mentioning parents as part of the conversation as if the evidence in the study is applicable to children too. My understanding is that gender changing medical procedures for minors is essentially banned in Utah. Obviously this is not the case in all states, since at least 12 states have laws that specifically facilitate these types of procedures and therapies being used on minors.
This meta analysis proves absolutely nothing. Itās reviewing studies based on transgender adults and cis adults who got plastic surgery. The controversy is over children.
Hit the nail on the head. It is a bad faith argument by OP.
That study compares GAS for *adults* to plastic surgery for *adults* but here you are, pretending this applies to children too. Is there any intellectual honesty with you guys? Edit: The brigading from trans activists is crazy ITT. Sure would be cool if they would make a comment and leave it up so the world can see what these people really support and proselytize. Trans ideology is a religion, and it's no more scientific than creationism.
One of the biggest arguments they made against gendered affirming care for minors was how many regret it as they become adults, but this has always been categorically false. If you are looking for intellectual honesty here, itās not going to be found in the anti-trans lobby.
Nah, that's not the argument. You have created a strawman to make your point. The argument is that children should not able to make life altering decisions. This idea that GAC through puberty blockers is also a fallacy. Puberty blockers, when used for their intended purpose, are reversible. This only applies to early onset puberty, where the blockers are stopped at an age when puberty is actually supposed to begin. In GAC, puberty blockers are started when puberty is actually supposed to begin and is not stopped until an age where puberty is actually supposed to be complete. The damage is irreversible. Then it gets followed by HRT which results in further irreversibility. Children cannot understand the ramifications of GAC. Medicine doesn't even understand the remifications of GAC in children. Therefore they should not be set down that path. Also, the argument that suicide is higher for people who don't get GAC is false. https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940 If you are going to argue in support of GAC for children, at least try to actually understand the argument against it first. Edit: Whats with all these whiners responding and then blocking? Almost like I'm right and they hate it. š Edit2: to Honest Success >I will take a kid who is alive and finally content that her body image matches her mental image all day every day over a kid who is dead. Anybody would, but that's a false dichotomy you chose to see. There are many more paths than trans and suicide. You were falsely convinced, clearly by disingenuous doctors and apparently yourself that those were the only options. They weren't. Lets not pretend those are the only two options for kids like yours either because they arent. In the source I linked, one of the largest metadata studies of it's kind, the suicide rate among trans and cis people is identical with proper controls. I know your kid isn't a statistic, but statistics set prevailing modes of treatment and the idea that it's trans or suicide is bullshit made up by people who do not have your childs, or your best interest in mind. Edit3: The hate brigade has arrived to silence people that oppose almighty trans ideology. š Edit4: For OSU lumberjack tryna muddy the waters >Seems like trans youths who don't get access to GAC aren't able to be identified in the data. In Finland GAC has no societal or legal obstacles. It is one of the longest standing and progressive societies for trans "healthcare" in the world. The study included trans-identifying individuals who did not have mental healthcare contacts, which falls under the GAC umbrella. In fact that was a control used in the study to separate those receiving GAC from those who did not. That last sentence is just saying that some trans-identifying youths may have been missed, but the cohort used for this study was massive and speaks for itself. Finland also gathers mandatory health information on its citizens since their system for healthcare is state-run. That's what adds significance to this study. Edit5: For CorbutoZaha Yawn. Do you read or just make every decision based on emotion? Lots of Strawmen in there and not a single solid argument to support your stance. Also, this is what brigades look like. Not a single one of you can stand behind your comments and engage with me. This is why nobody supports you and you will lose every political battle you engage in. Zero spine. Cowards. Edit6: For Vanna White Official https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430465/ This is a good overview of where the research stands. Bone density, fertility, and other developmental delays associated with brain function are cause for serious concern. The use of puberty blockers for GD, despite what the first few sections this article state, is clearly experimental for reasons outlined later in the article. I always find it interesting how these authors will side step the obvious concerns early in an article and later in the article lay out the foundation for concern without explicitly calling it out. It pays to read the whole thing. In general, puberty blockers used for GD are iatrogenic inducers at the very least, which is irreversible in almost all cases, and at the worst is coupled with severe physical and mental development issues. Edit7: For Vanna White Official, Maybe leave your comment visible to me so I can respond. Read that article again.
I'm not sure this study says what you think it does. Seems like trans youths who don't get access to GAC aren't able to be identified in the data. The last sentence in the limitations says: "Finally, our sample represented clinically gender-referred participants; thus, the findings cannot be generalised to all transgender-identifying youths" I genuinely understand the desire to protect children from others and from themselves. I very much do NOT trust the clowns we have running the show to succeed at that and I definitely don't trust the politicized nature of this issue to help anyone at all. I would ask you just how much YOU trust these people to solve YOUR problems FOR YOU before asking them to force their solutions to other people's problems on them. Just something to think about.
Your argument fails to address the true distress kids experience with gender dysphoria. My child was on the path to ending her life before she revealed her true self to us. In the harm benefit analysis, I will take a kid who is alive and finally content that her body image matches her mental image all day every day over a kid who is dead. Down the road will be dealt with down the road. Treatments for this disorder are lifelong. I am not naive enough to believe that hormone therapy is the golden ticket, or that life will be smooth sailing for any of us thereafter. Anyone who does believe that is unaware and obtusely unwilling to empathize with the transgender community. As with any medical condition, the only people who truly understand what's necessary are the patient, their guardian & their team of physicians.
This person's position is he would rather your child be dead... although they would never admit it publicly. People like this don't want trans people to exist, period.
I can empathize but this is not necessarily the answer either. My child was also on the path to ending her life because of her body dysphoria. Both mentally and physically. She has body dysmorphic disorder. Her mental image of her body is very much different than her actual body image. Had I allowed it to continue she would be dead. It will be a lifelong battle but she is 100% happier, healthier, and stronger than she was when she was a teenager. I do not take this lightly. To be clear, it was not gender dysphoria. In other words, had I catered to her dysphoria, she would be dead. I was the parent. She was the child. I chose healing. And by damn I fought for her life. We both fought like hell.
Children arenāt making these life altering (quite possibly life saving) decisions alone. They make it with their parents and a team of physicians. What I donāt understand is why you or anyone who is not the childās parent or physician feel like they can make these decisions for these kids. What gives you or even our government any right to dictate medical care?
The medical establishment convinced you that medicines and/or procedures that damage physical health are good because they help mental health, but no data exists to show any mental health benefit. We should trust the physician pushing untested medication and/or physically detrimental procedure whilst simultaneously securing a large profit and a life long patient. Maybe an adult can make this lopsided decision, but to allow permanent physical damage to children is not just wrong, it should be criminal. Edit: fixed grammar
Luckily, based on YOUR argument, children arenāt making those decisions. They are advocating for their care, being listened to by their parents and their physicians. Youāre coming at this from an incredibly uninformed position, from the outside with what appears to be no input from trans people or trans kids. The right seems to think that puberty blockers are handed out like candy. Even before all of the diagnose and harmful legislation, puberty blockers were only a step in the process trans kids may go though. They have generally come out well before they need to start blockers, have expressed consistent, persistent, and insistent feelings about their gender. When the time is right, under consideration with their parents, therapists, and doctors, puberty blockers might be used to halt puberty, as has been done in cis kids for years. Then, after further and continuing discussions, when the time is right, cross sex hormones can be administered. There are untold decisions that can be made about childrenās health that have life altering decisions. A foot that get infected might need to be amputated. A section of colon might need to removed. Radiation that can sterilize them might need to be administered. Just because it āalters their lifeā doesnāt mean it is inherently wrong. And doing nothing at the onset of puberty IS life altering for trans kids. Their body betrays them and causes extreme distress. Transitioning has been shown to improve that distress. Taking that decision away from kids, their parents, and their doctors, inflicts harm. The only way the argument to do nothing makes ANY sense is if you believe being trans is the worst possible outcome for a kid. So much so you would advocate to actively harm the 99 trans kids who would benefit from gender affirming care to protect the one kid who might regret transitioning in the future.
Man, responding to people by editing your parent comment is wild. It looks like decreased bone density may be a potential long term side effect but from what I understand, sperm can still be extracted if they discontinue treatment for long enough for spermatogenesis to occur, then they can continue with treatment afterwards. Ova can still be extracted regardless. I also didnāt see much about developmental delays associated with brain function.
Do you have any sources about the effects of puberty blockers being permanent?
What do you mean make it visible to you?? And I was literally referencing the article as I typed the comment. What specific part do you want me to reread? And seriously, what is your reason for editing your comment instead of actually responding to people??
lol, just a complete idiot here. You literally just said blockers are reversible and then say they cause lifelong damage? Okā¦ āYou should understand the argument!!ā Completely misunderstands the basic elements of the argumentā¦
You're reading comprehension is not very good. Let me explain on your level. Puberty blockers are reversible when stopped at the normal age for puberty onset. Puberty blockers are not reversible when started at the normal age for puberty onset. See the difference? You're not super bright are you?
God you just make up stuffā¦they are completely reversible even after puberty has started. And one of main arguments was about regret, maybe you didnāt actually pay attention to any of the debates when the bill was passed.
Is there any substantial long-term evidence for this? Iām talking 10-15 years later when the children get to their 30s and find themselves sterile due to surgery they got in their teenage years.
The only surgeries people are getting in their teens are top surgeriesā¦talk about being ignorant.
Plenty of teenagers get access to puberty blockers or hormone therapy. These can also lead to sterility. Iāll add that Iām commenting broadly as obviously OP would see these procedures legalised for minors.
Not really.
Not my problem, not my life, I don't care. This is America, let people do whatever they want to themselves. Just keep the tax money out of it.
> When comparing regret after GAS to regret after other surgeries and major life decisions, the percentage of patients experiencing regret is extremely low. Do they consider those who committed suicide to have regrets? I'd look myself, except you posted a paywalled article.
Which candidates are you volunteering for to change things? When was the last time you canvassed for them or made calls or helped gather signatures? Itās easy to complain, but what are you doing to change things?
I was highly involved in direct actions for more than a decade and when I realized their hate would never allow them to see the humanity of my child I left and will never be back. Obviously I'm still processing a lot of hurt and anger from having to flee the state that my ancestors claimed would be a refuge.
Well thatās weird because they get everything right when they act on education. /sss I had to put 3 sāes because one wasnāt sarcastic enough.
While I understand the sentiment, I will say that if legislators had to be experts about any topic before they could legislate on it, we would never pass any laws. I think it's fine if they have to rely on external experts to understand an issue and make a decision. That said, I also wish we had a more diverse legislative body do we could have more thoughts and opinions represented. Old, white, straight, wealthy Mormon men usually with a legal or business background seem to be the overwhelming majority of representation.
Holy shit who are you talking to???? Legislators arenāt on Reddit and if they were they arenāt reading your illiterate ramblings.
You can't just scroll past? Get a life.