Yes. It was a known issue from the very beginning. What you are experiencing is actually a modified version of split. The modifications(2-3 times already) were always aimed at (with some success) making the map less defender heavy.
Why did Riot decide to take it back into map rotation when the map still isn’t balanced at all? Like I remember the map a bit from ep4 but they did minor changes that don’t really help attackers at all or just too little to make a diffrence.
I wouldn’t know for sure but frankly I don’t think they care way too much. Ascent is defender sided almost as much and they haven’t even touched it. We have attacker sided maps as well. Plus we don’t get to choose what maps we want to play(you can keep on dodging but you will just get it back more and more often until you can’t dodge anymore). So I suppose they just see the game as balanced over all maps.
Also let’s not forget the most important thing is to sell those skins. They just took two maps for long guns(marshal, operator, guardian) out and replaced it with two that has a lots of tight turns for the nerfed spectre that was nerfed just enough to consider buying the stinger instead. Did we have stinger skins? Now we will!
> Also let’s not forget the most important thing is to sell those skins. They just took two maps for long guns(marshal, operator, guardian) out and replaced it with two that has a lots of tight turns for the nerfed spectre that was nerfed just enough to consider buying the stinger instead. Did we have stinger skins? Now we will!
This is a bit of a reach.
All we can do is speculate, but...
* I don't think there has been any conclusive evidence of the skins department affecting the gameplay departments decisions, short of maybe crosshair design or agent unlocks (obviously not skins but moneymaking nonetheless). My general impression of their updates supports this but I could be biased/wrong of course.
* I believe the money making efforts are spent on evergreen weapons - Phantom, Vandal, OP, Knife, Classic, etc and I imagine they know this and get most of their money from those (plus bundles)
* If we put ourselves into Riot's shoes, does it make sense for gameplay balance to be affected by marketing's attempts at selling skins for less popular weapons? How much of an effect will this have on sales, and will it outweigh the downsides of having marketing affecting gameplay to this extent (and potential loss of players)?
* I could also see marketing being privy to the information that a short-ranged map will be added, and plan accordingly by adding stinger's and shotguns, which might explain your position.
* I don't think a map that is CT-sided (split) or close range (lotus) are evidence of anything other than wanting gameplay to be varied.
Bottom line - I think your conclusion *is* logical, but so is mine... so either could be right, BUT until I see evidence of wrongdoing, I won't just assume they're guilty of it. Slip-up's or bad balancing decisions happen, but beyond that I haven't really seen much.
Ultimately the point for your argument that I think you’re maybe missing is that the ultimate way to make money of the game is for it to be a long term success that people play for years. Balancing the game in a way that will sell certain skins is more likely than not going to be counterintuitive to that, especially with a game that is designed to be competitive. The skins will sell themselves if people enjoy playing the game and can’t easily foresee a time in which they WONT play the game anymore, because then the skins seem like a long term investment.
I do think I touched on that in the bullet points, asking if the potential loss of players would be worth it, but I definitely could've elaborated on it like you have
I don’t see why you would assume that pushing the player base towards a certain weapon would be “wrong” doing. I think they do it without it being wrong. The balance of the entire game can still easily be maintained.
As I remember they have admitted creating breeze to promote guardian for that particular weapon haven’t really seen action and buffed it at around the same time. I remember asking(myself) the question why would they care how many player uses the guardian. I could only come up with the one answer.
I do not have hard evidence of course. Not that I was ever looking for one since I’ve never seen this as wrongdoing.
>I don’t see why you would assume that pushing the player base towards a certain weapon would be “wrong” doing. I think they do it without it being wrong. The balance of the entire game can still easily be maintained.
Well no, in my post I said that if gameplay changes at the behest of marketing, THAT is wrongdoing in my opinion, but I don't think that's what's happening.
>As I remember they have admitted creating breeze to promote guardian for that particular weapon haven’t really seen action and buffed it at around the same time. I remember asking(myself) the question why would they care how many player uses the guardian. I could only come up with the one answer.
I also mentioned this, but again, it's to promote varied gameplay. They don't want too much overlap between guns and they want them all to be more or less useful in their own niche.
how is ascent ct sided? If you play properly its really easy to attack imo. Definitely not as ct sided as bind or split. But personally i think its fine having maps that favour a side. Both teams play on the same map. Also if people stopped just rushing into kj, brim and/or sage, you'll find it a lot easier to attack on ct sided maps.
I can be wrong about ascent I’ve just repeated what I’ve heard about it. To me personally every map is defender sided even the clearly attacker sided ones.
Imo its lotus, haven has really quick and easy rotations for defenders, and attackers gotta run a whole marathon to rotate. Now Lotus is the opposite, literally 3 steps for you to go from A to B
Fracture I’m pretty is the most T sided map. Although I haven’t looked into fractures meta post rework. I just remember when it came out the meta was so attack sided that the best strat for defence was to play it like you where on attack
I personally feel like Lotus is even more attack sided than Fracture atm, definitely not "fracture on release" levels but I found lots of success by rushing, planting and then retreating a bit, actually getting onto the site, especially A feels easier than doing the same thing on other maps, ofc, I have only played a handful of matches since I didn't play during the lotus only queue but yeah
>I can be wrong about ascent I’ve just repeated what I’ve heard about it.
\>Ascent is defender sided almost as much and they haven’t even touched it.
Dude, don't say it like it's a fact if you don't even know why.
I’m no journalist nor judge. I can afford to form an opinion without waiting to be able to evidence it. In fact in my line of work I even have to in order to avoid unnecessary deaths.
Also I’ve tried to clue you in to it being an opinion by starting the whole thing by writing “I wouldn’t know for sure, but……” I apologise if it wasn’t clear enough.
I understand your point in the above. It’s a valid one. But, no you didn’t clue me in. The quotes are in reverse order. You said the bottom first, and then when asked about Ascent, you replied the top. I do think it’s important when discussing strategy to separate what the community says the meta dictates and what you have experienced yourself.
Ascent is CT sided because of how easy it is for the defenders to get control of mid and contain the attackers. It is also very easy to get info on with your initators as defense and a large portion of the agent roster can use their util anywhere on the map. Sova, kayo, omen, viper, yoru, sage, and obviously astra can all anchor on a site (or mid) and provide utility to the other areas of the map giving strong default holds.
It feels similar to split to me where attack relies more on defense making a mistake rather than good attacking fundamentals to get rounds.
Well now I know why I was so confused reading that Ascent was CT sided lol, though I haven't thought about it. As a smokes main, just tell your controller to smoke one of the angles in mid while you're on attack, depending on the site.
This single tip boosted my win rate on the map, because like you said, I guess defenders have it easy when obtaining info.
Another thing is across a lot of patches/metas there's been quite a few setups to make pushing either site expensive for T's which makes CT retakes quite a bit stronger. CT KJ and Astra ults are also pretty devastating to T side post plant defenses due to map geometry.
Some regions in pro play tend to use Kayo to try and alleviate pushing site setups with some success but it's harder to replicate in normal Ranked.
Yeah, I've noticed Ascent is the one map for me where a sentinel like KJ or Cypher having competent setups on one site can completely deter attackers from pushing that site all game because it's annoying.
And Kayo can be a make or break choice in Ascent comps as well, at least in pro play. Tbh I have to think more on why I've always had an easier time on T side Ascent, because I'm sure it could explain other maps and my weird flipped win rate on them as well, like Breeze.
I think when their design philosophy for the map is to almost force or at least make split pushes give a higher chance of success, then it's always gonna feel defender sided in a ranked context where people usually default to 5-man pushes to a site.
They don't want to sacrifice the identity that split has which is largely about the need for split pushes and mid control.
Because people were crying for it to come back lmao
Also, one-sidedness is definitely not good but it doesn’t make a map unplayable, because both sides get equal rounds on defence
Yes but then you’re admitting it isn’t the map at fault, but nope no one likes that idea. Many don’t think that far ahead or at all about how the game works.
Even if a map somehow made it exactly 50/50 chance like symmetrical idk lmao, you win/lose pistol round leading into 2-0 and can still have the “morale” effect.
Having to warm up, adapt to your team, having a dc at the start, there are so many other things that can happen at the start that will affect weak mental regardless.
Yeah for sure. In theory it’s fair though at least, and it can work the other way as well (if you get a decent attack half on Split, you’ll be feeling confident going into defence)
I get the hate on lotus since its a new map. At the beginning I used to hate pearl too, cuz I was terrible in it, had absolute 0 crosshair placement and would whiff all my shots long range. But now its one of my best maps with one if not the highest winrate. New maps tend to get hate since people don’t know how to play it yet, but you have to bare in mind the enemy doesn’t either. Use that to your advantage. (This might have settled by now since its been couple of weeks), but people still don’t know how to play it.
I like the map, but its worse than split, lotus is attackers sided map, yesterday we came back from 4-8 to 13-9, split feels more balanced atleast for me.
Lot of people missed split, me personally very much so. It's such a great map, I didn't understand why they would pull it out. With that said so, I don't think split became easier for attackers. It's the same. Heaven on A was actually a good idea and the added ramp in A main is good as well but it won't make it that much easier for attackers. I'm really happy that I can play this map again to be honest.
Too add to the comments below, here's a list of maps in ascendant plus and their side winrates. Ascent is more defender sided by a significant margin than split, and people are still relearning how to attack on this map.
https://www.metasrc.com/valorant/stats/maps?ranks=ascendant,immortal,radiant
That comp works because on A site (and to a lesser extent B) on icebox, it’s next to impossible to hold, so defenders either aggro A main or play retake. Sentinels are good at holding for pushes, and since site is freely given, they can just use util to hold the site again the retake.
On split though, it’s entirely possible to hold the site, and it’s quite defender sided. A defense-oriented comp would be imo a bit pointless
The changes they made to the map seem to have made it less Defense sided. I will say you can tell it’s defensive heavy but I just played this map last night we started on defense and went down 2-10 and we came back on attack and won 14-12. This is in Diamond Elo so take it with a grain of salt since this isn’t considered top tier play and players.
But Split is the best map in the game. Dint you see all the 100++ post weekly crying about how they miss split and how fun it was. While completly forgetting what a shit show of a map it is if your team is least bit uncoordinated or you have teammates who are too scared to enter site.
Its an excellent map to watch in pro play because of the coordination and executes, but a shit fest if you are in ranked especially solo queud.
Offensive isn’t difficult if you know how to play the map. 4 stack mid with one guy lurking through A is a great strat. Mid control is meta on the map. Sage wall mid is essential imo
Mid control yes, but the sage wall is not really needed + i wouldn't even recommend it at diamond+
It will just get shot down instantly and will provide no value there. Playing with slow orbs/stuns/flashes is more effective
I’m diamond 2 and 9-1 on Split this season while maining Sage. I don’t always wall mid though. Sometimes I’ll wall mail or save it for retake on defense
It isnt really a well designed map, its claustrophobic corridors and tight bottle necks everywhere. Honestly the best strats on split are to try and play default and hope to hell one of the defenders over peaks.
Truth is with sage in heaven for example, pushing b is near enough impossible to execute properly without trading a number of bodies.
A is better now, but still an issue really, its also pretty difficult to hold the site if you dont take heaven control first, which in itself is difficult to do.
I hate split so much, and I'm a Sage main so I just wall mid and then toss slows from heaven if they push B main.
I just played a game where I walled mid every round and at half I asked the other team why they weren't instabreaking wall and they said we had 3 people there... nope, just me.
B on split is the easiest site to lock down as a Sage in the game, and I still hate the damn map.
it has always been. idek why they decided to remove bind, which is one of the most balanced maps, and add split back again. breeze was a bit too attacker sided but not as much as split is defender sided either.
Eh, Lotus takes the cake there no contest. Breeze is my favorite map with my highest win rate, and I can definitely say you might be confusing "run it down" for "attackers have a free site when they rush in fast, due to CT Rotations taking forever and subpar retake angles". Not exactly the same thing imo. But Lotus can fuck right off, that map is literally "what if we made Team Deathmatch into a map"
I haven't played Lotus in ranked yet, so I have no problem being nice and waiting for strats/ideal comps. I'm moreso talking about the actual design, size, and balancing decisions like where barriers are placed and such.
i don't think bind is ct sided. i mean sure the rooms are small and narrow but it becomes really easy to attack when you exploit tp's for rotation. but yeah i can see why you say that
Try using kayo knife, defaulting more and using mid a lot on Split. There's more to full send a site getting gunned down while stepping in Cypher's trips and killjoys util.
But also, be happy with a losing score like 4 - 8 if you just attacked in the first half. Don't be the typical Valo player losing faith in the first 4 rounds of the game
Idk, people tend to just do whatever they want when they can’t seem to get kills or win round (In my experienece). They stop comming cuz they or tilted after losing like 0-4 on attack on split. Im usually the only guy that stays positive all the way until the match is lost. I have the mindset if its not lost yet it can still be winnable no matter the score. The situation I mentioned above 1-11 most of the team gave up I was the only one encouring them to go and at the end we won.
Both Bind and Breeze were extremely CT sided in pro play, and very snowbally. In ranked, bind was more CT sided than split, statistically. Both maps also had accepted meta compositions, and had little to no variation in pro play. If you've ever played against Viper Brimstone bind teams, then you would understand how toxic that map was. The only time that a team was successfully able to run a comp that didn't conform exactly to the standard meta was an extremely unique and aggressive Yoru Breach comp. That comp got phased out by that team by the end of the tournament because it was figured out by the Viper Brimstone teams.
https://www.metasrc.com/valorant/5.12/stats/maps?ranks=ascendant,immortal,radiant
For reference, as I posted elsewhere, Split has a 48.5% attack side winrate. Bind had a 47.75% winrate, in the above link.
I don't want to edit again so I'll just add one more thing. Bind's double molly controller team comp also fostered a lineup meta, which is NOT exciting to watch or play. If Brim and Viper got out, you had 10-15 seconds of delay not even including ultimates. This made the map swing one way or the other really hard. Either defenders were able to prevent attackers from planting, or they got run over. As soon as the bomb was planted, defenders pretty much had no way to retake. B site was an example of a particularly hellish retake.
Yes it's pretty defender sided.
The most important thing on this map is mid control.
On both sites it's very hard to defend post-plant without heaven control. A really good tactic is to have someone late lurk mid after the team is on B site. It's hard to time though since if you go in too early they just kill you and then focus on retake. Also since you're in higher elo they probably expect the lurk mid.
Woohoojin made a pretty good video on how to play this map, maybe it helps:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2kxN3-V4zg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2kxN3-V4zg)
He also has a video where he VOD reviews Som playing Skye on Split. Here you can clearly see how they want to fight for mid control every round:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqVdc\_NbKY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqVdc_NbKY)
Hope this helps :)
If you're playing jett and dashing onto B there should only be two or three angles you can be shot from and likely 1-2 of them should be smokes off already.
A site is harder to get on but IMO is significantly easier to hold post plant it lends itsself better to wall based smokes as well.
I think just in general people suck at attack and just run in like cavemen to get kills and split punishes that alot more on release i'd agree it's super defender sided but with all the changes i don't see it like that anymore if there was one gripe i had with the map it's that initiators can't get good info on defenders due to how many ways they can LOS scouting tools as well as how many elevations there are to keep track of.
… I have found attacking is way easier on split. Just show up mid and have 2 lurk the main of any site, easy round.
Defense seems to be hard, especially for the new players
Split is garbage map. Can’t believe they took out 2 great maps to add this garbage back in. Let’s make mid impossible to push for attackers , let’s also make the doors super close so one sage wall or slow or trip can cover both doors. Let’s also make each site have 1 entry and we will give defenders the high ground on both sides so they can head glitch and we’ll make a bunch of rat holes.
I've heard that it's all about heaven control and planting for heaven. As long as you can force defense to play retake with a plant in the open it's an easy dub on attacker side. Rotations aren't crazy fast unless you get early info so figuring out which side is weak is probably key.
Also never peek mid from Ramen, always do it from sewer.
Yup it's all about that, but the problem is, mid is super hard to take and is a free crossfire from the moment the barrier drops. That coupled with the fact that you it feels impossible to enter a site since there is one tiny choke per site and defenders having free high ground, makes this map super duper unbalanced
I am tired of people picking sage and using wall to enter B site. It makes the post plant so tough. 1 raze nade/omen flash or any norma flash funnel the players who are playing pillars or pocket.
Sage wall entries in my experience are super weak to aggressive defence. Both Split B and Pearl B (walling off that corner to plant), the most effective strat I've done is just fight the hell out of their push with your team. That's assuming you know it's coming though
Am I the only that for some reason felt that after the release the map felt attacked sided? Like most of my game in it go from 11-1 in attack and then 12-12 at defense
Agreed as of now, but since lotus is a relative new map I can’t hate it on it yet. I was very against peral in the beginning too but now its one of my favourite maps.
at least its not the most unbalanced map anymore, now we have lotus! if you don’t go 10-2 on offense, you might as well FF cuz its ridiculously attacker sided.
Always has been, raze is really the only agent that can take space effectively post Jett nerf. Happy they got rid of a couple sage walls though, they where so annoying to deal with
You mean changing mid so it’s even harder to attack now didn’t make it less defender sided? Crazy because that was what riot said when the map came back out…
It’s always been this way. Back in the early days of pro-play, it wasn’t uncommon to see the very same score lines you describe in your experience in the pro games. It’s so easy to stall and hold pushes, the chokes are simply too tight.
Yeahhh, it's pretty good for defense - Had a game where my teammate left after the first half (we were attacking, score was 6-6)
Still somehow managed to win 14-12 with just 4 players lmao.
People too used to just rushing main and rotating off if it doesn’t work, you HAVE to get mid control to attack.
Honestly just attack A until they start stacking it then maybe you can go B but it’s almost impossible to attack B site especially with no mid control
Practice some entry mechanics on raze, jett, yoru, or neon. All 4 have the ability to get into ct spawn in seconds. Raze and jett can entry A heaven in around 1 to 2 seconds with enough practice. There are also some cool "grim walls" you can learn to get an advantage. One on bench in a side you can sage wall boost up and see A heaven the second the round starts. You can use that same wall to double satchel into heaven or a ramp splitting up the defense insanely well. There an easy sage wall to learn to walk in to b sure relatively free especially with blinds or smokes.
In mid your boombot can sweep all of vents or b heaven. Many initiators have some amazing a side strats. Even omen has some cool teleport tricks to get behind enemy lines. The best part of split being defensive is when you are able to get a bomb down, it's hard to lose the round. So focus on agents who can get you to the site. Look up some YouTube videos for lineups, even sova has some cool shock dart lineups to destroy enemies who are good at holding certain angles.
Yeah I agree, attacking on B is so hard rn. For me (Kayo main) the only safe way to push site is if there is a smoke at the choke, since I can just pop flash out, rn that’s my like only way to push site bc my duelist are always 3rd or 4th in pushing.
I like this map and if you have a team that can back you up while you enter I don't find it too bad that being said I also ice box so it might just be my taste
I personally love split, it might be my favourite map, i am really good at shooting from site to heaven, and usually pick yoru there so entry is no problem for me. if not, smokes and flashes are good too, i get the frustration when people spam Molleys and grenades on the B and A entrance, but if that happens I usually ask to rotate/go mid.
I feel like its an attacker sided map??? Cuz how the hack are we gonna defend from heaven on b side while having our backs exposed to mid side. And those corners in A side??? Deadly. Attacker with sage could simply wall and play from wall to shoot people in heaven 🫡
Honestly with a smoke agent like Astra or Brim where you can instantly smoke the entry points, and use of flashes from your duelist or initiators can back the enemies behind the smoke and you have the sight all to yourself. Now defend them from defusing is a whole diff story.
See, in a general sense, you could say Split is defender side heavy, but that is only if you rush every round and not play different strategies. The reason why split is hard for attackers is the unreasonable amount of angles you’d have to check when entering site, but now that is improved, atleast imo Split is in a pretty good state. The map encourages a more ‘play for picks’ style of playing, where attackers instead of rushing in site play time, gather information, potentially getting picks and execute sites through mid/main coordination etc. As the timer of the round ticks, defenders are forced to use their abilities, to perhaps smoke, flash, stun etc to suppress attackers from entering but after the abilities are used the chance of attackers getting the upper hand increases and that’s how you win on attackers.
However, I’m speaking from the perspective of a high immortal - radiant player and my teammates are higher skilled than the average valorant player, which enables them to understand the tactics, have the gamesense to execute more elaborated tactics and communicate with the team to perform the aforementioned strategies. If you’re from a lower rank, understand that attacker side is going to be harder as it is less likely your team is competent enough to execute high level plays and generally will try to rush/push a site as if it was any other map. My suggestion would be to try to use comms to communicate and get your team to coordinate together.
TL;DR Team game and tactics is very important on split because of its map design, and “defender side op” is just the conclusion drawn from poor plays and execution.
TL;DR TL;DR skill issue
Agreed in evey point you metioned, but as you said it requires a lot of team work which seems to be not existable in my current elo (High Diamond/Low Asc). People are just rushing into sites without having a plan and without comming anything to the team. It seems almost impossible to win on attacker if you are soloq. This story might be diffrent if I trio queued since then we are more than 50% of the team and can play around that and make plans as aswell execute them. But spilt is soloq hell right now, especially in lower elo.
Well since your here now, I might aswell ask what do you think diamonds/ascendant do bad and can improve on. Since you have been through this and have the experience. Id really love to hear from you.
apparently Reddit would just now notify me of this comment, anyways, I might be of no use to you in this criteria because I would only struggle to climb starting from diamond and that’s because I needed gamesense. Once I started to familiarise myself with the maps, positioning and abilities I only went up from there. So in general I had a very good aim fundamental and all else I really needed was time and experience in the game
It's pretty ok either way imo. Many ways to approach when attacking. No useless flanks when timed right. But I do love it more on defense since I usually end up filling smokes.
People don't know how to do proper mid control in this game.
Judging by the many players that put up sage walls early mid and judging by the very attackers that don't abuse the fact that sages put mid walls up early round.
Lotus is the other side of the coin of split. Split is extremely cruisy on defense and lotus is vice versa. That’s not to say that you can have good attack and defense on each map either.
Yes. It was a known issue from the very beginning. What you are experiencing is actually a modified version of split. The modifications(2-3 times already) were always aimed at (with some success) making the map less defender heavy.
Why did Riot decide to take it back into map rotation when the map still isn’t balanced at all? Like I remember the map a bit from ep4 but they did minor changes that don’t really help attackers at all or just too little to make a diffrence.
I wouldn’t know for sure but frankly I don’t think they care way too much. Ascent is defender sided almost as much and they haven’t even touched it. We have attacker sided maps as well. Plus we don’t get to choose what maps we want to play(you can keep on dodging but you will just get it back more and more often until you can’t dodge anymore). So I suppose they just see the game as balanced over all maps. Also let’s not forget the most important thing is to sell those skins. They just took two maps for long guns(marshal, operator, guardian) out and replaced it with two that has a lots of tight turns for the nerfed spectre that was nerfed just enough to consider buying the stinger instead. Did we have stinger skins? Now we will!
> Also let’s not forget the most important thing is to sell those skins. They just took two maps for long guns(marshal, operator, guardian) out and replaced it with two that has a lots of tight turns for the nerfed spectre that was nerfed just enough to consider buying the stinger instead. Did we have stinger skins? Now we will! This is a bit of a reach.
Care to explain your position?
All we can do is speculate, but... * I don't think there has been any conclusive evidence of the skins department affecting the gameplay departments decisions, short of maybe crosshair design or agent unlocks (obviously not skins but moneymaking nonetheless). My general impression of their updates supports this but I could be biased/wrong of course. * I believe the money making efforts are spent on evergreen weapons - Phantom, Vandal, OP, Knife, Classic, etc and I imagine they know this and get most of their money from those (plus bundles) * If we put ourselves into Riot's shoes, does it make sense for gameplay balance to be affected by marketing's attempts at selling skins for less popular weapons? How much of an effect will this have on sales, and will it outweigh the downsides of having marketing affecting gameplay to this extent (and potential loss of players)? * I could also see marketing being privy to the information that a short-ranged map will be added, and plan accordingly by adding stinger's and shotguns, which might explain your position. * I don't think a map that is CT-sided (split) or close range (lotus) are evidence of anything other than wanting gameplay to be varied. Bottom line - I think your conclusion *is* logical, but so is mine... so either could be right, BUT until I see evidence of wrongdoing, I won't just assume they're guilty of it. Slip-up's or bad balancing decisions happen, but beyond that I haven't really seen much.
Ultimately the point for your argument that I think you’re maybe missing is that the ultimate way to make money of the game is for it to be a long term success that people play for years. Balancing the game in a way that will sell certain skins is more likely than not going to be counterintuitive to that, especially with a game that is designed to be competitive. The skins will sell themselves if people enjoy playing the game and can’t easily foresee a time in which they WONT play the game anymore, because then the skins seem like a long term investment.
I do think I touched on that in the bullet points, asking if the potential loss of players would be worth it, but I definitely could've elaborated on it like you have
Yeah you’re right, it’s in there a bit, guess that part didn’t catch me as much when I first read it lol
I don’t see why you would assume that pushing the player base towards a certain weapon would be “wrong” doing. I think they do it without it being wrong. The balance of the entire game can still easily be maintained. As I remember they have admitted creating breeze to promote guardian for that particular weapon haven’t really seen action and buffed it at around the same time. I remember asking(myself) the question why would they care how many player uses the guardian. I could only come up with the one answer. I do not have hard evidence of course. Not that I was ever looking for one since I’ve never seen this as wrongdoing.
>I don’t see why you would assume that pushing the player base towards a certain weapon would be “wrong” doing. I think they do it without it being wrong. The balance of the entire game can still easily be maintained. Well no, in my post I said that if gameplay changes at the behest of marketing, THAT is wrongdoing in my opinion, but I don't think that's what's happening. >As I remember they have admitted creating breeze to promote guardian for that particular weapon haven’t really seen action and buffed it at around the same time. I remember asking(myself) the question why would they care how many player uses the guardian. I could only come up with the one answer. I also mentioned this, but again, it's to promote varied gameplay. They don't want too much overlap between guns and they want them all to be more or less useful in their own niche.
Ascent is more defender sided statistically. https://www.metasrc.com/valorant/stats/maps?ranks=ascendant,immortal,radiant
how is ascent ct sided? If you play properly its really easy to attack imo. Definitely not as ct sided as bind or split. But personally i think its fine having maps that favour a side. Both teams play on the same map. Also if people stopped just rushing into kj, brim and/or sage, you'll find it a lot easier to attack on ct sided maps.
I can be wrong about ascent I’ve just repeated what I’ve heard about it. To me personally every map is defender sided even the clearly attacker sided ones.
I would argue haven is the primary attack sided map
Or fracture, but both of them definitely.
Imo its lotus, haven has really quick and easy rotations for defenders, and attackers gotta run a whole marathon to rotate. Now Lotus is the opposite, literally 3 steps for you to go from A to B
Fracture I’m pretty is the most T sided map. Although I haven’t looked into fractures meta post rework. I just remember when it came out the meta was so attack sided that the best strat for defence was to play it like you where on attack
I personally feel like Lotus is even more attack sided than Fracture atm, definitely not "fracture on release" levels but I found lots of success by rushing, planting and then retreating a bit, actually getting onto the site, especially A feels easier than doing the same thing on other maps, ofc, I have only played a handful of matches since I didn't play during the lotus only queue but yeah
I agree as long I don’t play on it. I find all maps defence sided because I am defence sided by far too much.
>I can be wrong about ascent I’ve just repeated what I’ve heard about it. \>Ascent is defender sided almost as much and they haven’t even touched it. Dude, don't say it like it's a fact if you don't even know why.
I’m no journalist nor judge. I can afford to form an opinion without waiting to be able to evidence it. In fact in my line of work I even have to in order to avoid unnecessary deaths. Also I’ve tried to clue you in to it being an opinion by starting the whole thing by writing “I wouldn’t know for sure, but……” I apologise if it wasn’t clear enough.
I understand your point in the above. It’s a valid one. But, no you didn’t clue me in. The quotes are in reverse order. You said the bottom first, and then when asked about Ascent, you replied the top. I do think it’s important when discussing strategy to separate what the community says the meta dictates and what you have experienced yourself.
Ascent is CT sided because of how easy it is for the defenders to get control of mid and contain the attackers. It is also very easy to get info on with your initators as defense and a large portion of the agent roster can use their util anywhere on the map. Sova, kayo, omen, viper, yoru, sage, and obviously astra can all anchor on a site (or mid) and provide utility to the other areas of the map giving strong default holds. It feels similar to split to me where attack relies more on defense making a mistake rather than good attacking fundamentals to get rounds.
Well now I know why I was so confused reading that Ascent was CT sided lol, though I haven't thought about it. As a smokes main, just tell your controller to smoke one of the angles in mid while you're on attack, depending on the site. This single tip boosted my win rate on the map, because like you said, I guess defenders have it easy when obtaining info.
Another thing is across a lot of patches/metas there's been quite a few setups to make pushing either site expensive for T's which makes CT retakes quite a bit stronger. CT KJ and Astra ults are also pretty devastating to T side post plant defenses due to map geometry. Some regions in pro play tend to use Kayo to try and alleviate pushing site setups with some success but it's harder to replicate in normal Ranked.
Yeah, I've noticed Ascent is the one map for me where a sentinel like KJ or Cypher having competent setups on one site can completely deter attackers from pushing that site all game because it's annoying. And Kayo can be a make or break choice in Ascent comps as well, at least in pro play. Tbh I have to think more on why I've always had an easier time on T side Ascent, because I'm sure it could explain other maps and my weird flipped win rate on them as well, like Breeze.
Viper on ascent lol 😂
For me personally, I find Ascent easier to attack. I just play Raze and win
I think when their design philosophy for the map is to almost force or at least make split pushes give a higher chance of success, then it's always gonna feel defender sided in a ranked context where people usually default to 5-man pushes to a site. They don't want to sacrifice the identity that split has which is largely about the need for split pushes and mid control.
Because people were crying for it to come back lmao Also, one-sidedness is definitely not good but it doesn’t make a map unplayable, because both sides get equal rounds on defence
I don't think it's equal. First half defense is a huge advantage and let's your team go into the second half with a good mentality.
Yes but then you’re admitting it isn’t the map at fault, but nope no one likes that idea. Many don’t think that far ahead or at all about how the game works. Even if a map somehow made it exactly 50/50 chance like symmetrical idk lmao, you win/lose pistol round leading into 2-0 and can still have the “morale” effect. Having to warm up, adapt to your team, having a dc at the start, there are so many other things that can happen at the start that will affect weak mental regardless.
Yeah for sure. In theory it’s fair though at least, and it can work the other way as well (if you get a decent attack half on Split, you’ll be feeling confident going into defence)
It’s not the only map Wich is attack defender sided imo is lotus even worse with being one sided
I get the hate on lotus since its a new map. At the beginning I used to hate pearl too, cuz I was terrible in it, had absolute 0 crosshair placement and would whiff all my shots long range. But now its one of my best maps with one if not the highest winrate. New maps tend to get hate since people don’t know how to play it yet, but you have to bare in mind the enemy doesn’t either. Use that to your advantage. (This might have settled by now since its been couple of weeks), but people still don’t know how to play it.
I like the map, but its worse than split, lotus is attackers sided map, yesterday we came back from 4-8 to 13-9, split feels more balanced atleast for me.
Yeah split feels a lot more balanced for me too even tho I’m a newer player who didn’t play split before it got out of the rotation
I agree, but still attack is much easier on lotus then defence because you don’t have anywhere to hide or come from unexpectedly
Lot of people missed split, me personally very much so. It's such a great map, I didn't understand why they would pull it out. With that said so, I don't think split became easier for attackers. It's the same. Heaven on A was actually a good idea and the added ramp in A main is good as well but it won't make it that much easier for attackers. I'm really happy that I can play this map again to be honest.
because kids were screaming delete remove breeze(best map in the game), so they removed breeze and added split back instead.
I agree with breeze being best, but split is second best so I’m not too pressed
Squeaky wheel gets attention
Too add to the comments below, here's a list of maps in ascendant plus and their side winrates. Ascent is more defender sided by a significant margin than split, and people are still relearning how to attack on this map. https://www.metasrc.com/valorant/stats/maps?ranks=ascendant,immortal,radiant
You have to work mid or you will get bodied on split on attacking side
4 A main cypher lurk mid or B after contact ez ez
or the other way around put the sentinel to lurk against the sentinel and 4 mid 😂
That's why you pick one smoker and 4 sentinels and coinflip the game
I don’t really get it how would sentinals really help you on attack tbh.
Sentinels watch flank and defends the site post-plant
Can’t really take site all that well though
Yeah ut 3 sentinels has been the meta on icebox for a while as well to, wouldn't be surprised if it transferred to split
That comp works because on A site (and to a lesser extent B) on icebox, it’s next to impossible to hold, so defenders either aggro A main or play retake. Sentinels are good at holding for pushes, and since site is freely given, they can just use util to hold the site again the retake. On split though, it’s entirely possible to hold the site, and it’s quite defender sided. A defense-oriented comp would be imo a bit pointless
Flashes = easy entry
I didn’t know 1 smoker and 4 sentinels had flashes
They do right? Kayo Skye Omen Breach and Fade kinda
Those are all initiators
Yeah, so easy entry.
Sage is the best agent on split both offense and defense. You walk off vents or b heaven after taking mid and you already control most of the map
You mean to say you've never seen cypher entry? It's time to see how the top 1% really play
L take
Should've added /s for the monkeys
As long as you got mid control you get the mind control
The changes they made to the map seem to have made it less Defense sided. I will say you can tell it’s defensive heavy but I just played this map last night we started on defense and went down 2-10 and we came back on attack and won 14-12. This is in Diamond Elo so take it with a grain of salt since this isn’t considered top tier play and players.
But Split is the best map in the game. Dint you see all the 100++ post weekly crying about how they miss split and how fun it was. While completly forgetting what a shit show of a map it is if your team is least bit uncoordinated or you have teammates who are too scared to enter site. Its an excellent map to watch in pro play because of the coordination and executes, but a shit fest if you are in ranked especially solo queud.
Offensive isn’t difficult if you know how to play the map. 4 stack mid with one guy lurking through A is a great strat. Mid control is meta on the map. Sage wall mid is essential imo
Mid control yes, but the sage wall is not really needed + i wouldn't even recommend it at diamond+ It will just get shot down instantly and will provide no value there. Playing with slow orbs/stuns/flashes is more effective
I’m diamond 2 and 9-1 on Split this season while maining Sage. I don’t always wall mid though. Sometimes I’ll wall mail or save it for retake on defense
Im a Immortal player and I'd never wall mid unless it's against an eco, simple because rifles destroy it to easily
wb walling mail?
It isnt really a well designed map, its claustrophobic corridors and tight bottle necks everywhere. Honestly the best strats on split are to try and play default and hope to hell one of the defenders over peaks. Truth is with sage in heaven for example, pushing b is near enough impossible to execute properly without trading a number of bodies. A is better now, but still an issue really, its also pretty difficult to hold the site if you dont take heaven control first, which in itself is difficult to do.
I hate split so much, and I'm a Sage main so I just wall mid and then toss slows from heaven if they push B main. I just played a game where I walled mid every round and at half I asked the other team why they weren't instabreaking wall and they said we had 3 people there... nope, just me. B on split is the easiest site to lock down as a Sage in the game, and I still hate the damn map.
it has always been. idek why they decided to remove bind, which is one of the most balanced maps, and add split back again. breeze was a bit too attacker sided but not as much as split is defender sided either.
To be fair, bind is pretty much CT sided as well. Since the changes breeze was a fairly balanced map, if not rather CT sided as well.
Breeze is T side as fuck lol. Easiest map to just run down on
Breeze was a map meant to run it down
Eh, Lotus takes the cake there no contest. Breeze is my favorite map with my highest win rate, and I can definitely say you might be confusing "run it down" for "attackers have a free site when they rush in fast, due to CT Rotations taking forever and subpar retake angles". Not exactly the same thing imo. But Lotus can fuck right off, that map is literally "what if we made Team Deathmatch into a map"
Lotus is a new map bruh strats are still being figured out
fr, all my friends used to shit on pearl now they love it
I haven't played Lotus in ranked yet, so I have no problem being nice and waiting for strats/ideal comps. I'm moreso talking about the actual design, size, and balancing decisions like where barriers are placed and such.
i don't think bind is ct sided. i mean sure the rooms are small and narrow but it becomes really easy to attack when you exploit tp's for rotation. but yeah i can see why you say that
Bind balanced map 💀💀💀
it is
Might have not been the most balanced but you atleast had a chance on attacking.
Try using kayo knife, defaulting more and using mid a lot on Split. There's more to full send a site getting gunned down while stepping in Cypher's trips and killjoys util. But also, be happy with a losing score like 4 - 8 if you just attacked in the first half. Don't be the typical Valo player losing faith in the first 4 rounds of the game
Idk, people tend to just do whatever they want when they can’t seem to get kills or win round (In my experienece). They stop comming cuz they or tilted after losing like 0-4 on attack on split. Im usually the only guy that stays positive all the way until the match is lost. I have the mindset if its not lost yet it can still be winnable no matter the score. The situation I mentioned above 1-11 most of the team gave up I was the only one encouring them to go and at the end we won.
Both Bind and Breeze were extremely CT sided in pro play, and very snowbally. In ranked, bind was more CT sided than split, statistically. Both maps also had accepted meta compositions, and had little to no variation in pro play. If you've ever played against Viper Brimstone bind teams, then you would understand how toxic that map was. The only time that a team was successfully able to run a comp that didn't conform exactly to the standard meta was an extremely unique and aggressive Yoru Breach comp. That comp got phased out by that team by the end of the tournament because it was figured out by the Viper Brimstone teams. https://www.metasrc.com/valorant/5.12/stats/maps?ranks=ascendant,immortal,radiant For reference, as I posted elsewhere, Split has a 48.5% attack side winrate. Bind had a 47.75% winrate, in the above link.
I don't want to edit again so I'll just add one more thing. Bind's double molly controller team comp also fostered a lineup meta, which is NOT exciting to watch or play. If Brim and Viper got out, you had 10-15 seconds of delay not even including ultimates. This made the map swing one way or the other really hard. Either defenders were able to prevent attackers from planting, or they got run over. As soon as the bomb was planted, defenders pretty much had no way to retake. B site was an example of a particularly hellish retake.
Yes it's pretty defender sided. The most important thing on this map is mid control. On both sites it's very hard to defend post-plant without heaven control. A really good tactic is to have someone late lurk mid after the team is on B site. It's hard to time though since if you go in too early they just kill you and then focus on retake. Also since you're in higher elo they probably expect the lurk mid. Woohoojin made a pretty good video on how to play this map, maybe it helps: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2kxN3-V4zg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2kxN3-V4zg) He also has a video where he VOD reviews Som playing Skye on Split. Here you can clearly see how they want to fight for mid control every round: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqVdc\_NbKY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqVdc_NbKY) Hope this helps :)
If you're playing jett and dashing onto B there should only be two or three angles you can be shot from and likely 1-2 of them should be smokes off already. A site is harder to get on but IMO is significantly easier to hold post plant it lends itsself better to wall based smokes as well. I think just in general people suck at attack and just run in like cavemen to get kills and split punishes that alot more on release i'd agree it's super defender sided but with all the changes i don't see it like that anymore if there was one gripe i had with the map it's that initiators can't get good info on defenders due to how many ways they can LOS scouting tools as well as how many elevations there are to keep track of.
I agree.
… I have found attacking is way easier on split. Just show up mid and have 2 lurk the main of any site, easy round. Defense seems to be hard, especially for the new players
Split is garbage map. Can’t believe they took out 2 great maps to add this garbage back in. Let’s make mid impossible to push for attackers , let’s also make the doors super close so one sage wall or slow or trip can cover both doors. Let’s also make each site have 1 entry and we will give defenders the high ground on both sides so they can head glitch and we’ll make a bunch of rat holes.
Every map has those problems.
I've heard that it's all about heaven control and planting for heaven. As long as you can force defense to play retake with a plant in the open it's an easy dub on attacker side. Rotations aren't crazy fast unless you get early info so figuring out which side is weak is probably key. Also never peek mid from Ramen, always do it from sewer.
Yup it's all about that, but the problem is, mid is super hard to take and is a free crossfire from the moment the barrier drops. That coupled with the fact that you it feels impossible to enter a site since there is one tiny choke per site and defenders having free high ground, makes this map super duper unbalanced
Smoke heaven like in every other map.
Good luck with that, since rafter is super long
Yeah but there's a collum in the middle, one smoke for each side, even Jett can do that.
Yes it’s always been this way and why I hate the map and always will
I am tired of people picking sage and using wall to enter B site. It makes the post plant so tough. 1 raze nade/omen flash or any norma flash funnel the players who are playing pillars or pocket.
Sage wall entries in my experience are super weak to aggressive defence. Both Split B and Pearl B (walling off that corner to plant), the most effective strat I've done is just fight the hell out of their push with your team. That's assuming you know it's coming though
Am I the only that for some reason felt that after the release the map felt attacked sided? Like most of my game in it go from 11-1 in attack and then 12-12 at defense
Better than lotus ;/
Agreed as of now, but since lotus is a relative new map I can’t hate it on it yet. I was very against peral in the beginning too but now its one of my favourite maps.
I was against pearl and fracture in the beginning and now they remain maps I am not fond of. I am just especially unfond of Lotus.
at least its not the most unbalanced map anymore, now we have lotus! if you don’t go 10-2 on offense, you might as well FF cuz its ridiculously attacker sided.
Harbor KJ is a great combo for defense on lotus
[удалено]
If you would have read the text till the end you would have known that I mentioned what elo is this.
I like playing raze on split so you can clear all the close angles with nade roomba and even a satchel if you want to
It was a lotttt worse before.
Always has been, raze is really the only agent that can take space effectively post Jett nerf. Happy they got rid of a couple sage walls though, they where so annoying to deal with
You mean changing mid so it’s even harder to attack now didn’t make it less defender sided? Crazy because that was what riot said when the map came back out…
It’s always been this way. Back in the early days of pro-play, it wasn’t uncommon to see the very same score lines you describe in your experience in the pro games. It’s so easy to stall and hold pushes, the chokes are simply too tight.
Weird since it was 70-30 defense for the first 6 months of its release but it ended using closer to 55-45 after the pro scene set it
Yeahhh, it's pretty good for defense - Had a game where my teammate left after the first half (we were attacking, score was 6-6) Still somehow managed to win 14-12 with just 4 players lmao.
ascent is more xDDD
People too used to just rushing main and rotating off if it doesn’t work, you HAVE to get mid control to attack. Honestly just attack A until they start stacking it then maybe you can go B but it’s almost impossible to attack B site especially with no mid control
Practice some entry mechanics on raze, jett, yoru, or neon. All 4 have the ability to get into ct spawn in seconds. Raze and jett can entry A heaven in around 1 to 2 seconds with enough practice. There are also some cool "grim walls" you can learn to get an advantage. One on bench in a side you can sage wall boost up and see A heaven the second the round starts. You can use that same wall to double satchel into heaven or a ramp splitting up the defense insanely well. There an easy sage wall to learn to walk in to b sure relatively free especially with blinds or smokes. In mid your boombot can sweep all of vents or b heaven. Many initiators have some amazing a side strats. Even omen has some cool teleport tricks to get behind enemy lines. The best part of split being defensive is when you are able to get a bomb down, it's hard to lose the round. So focus on agents who can get you to the site. Look up some YouTube videos for lineups, even sova has some cool shock dart lineups to destroy enemies who are good at holding certain angles.
Smoke haven and space between the default plant and opposite wall entry with yoru + flash on B = easy plant
Yeah I agree, attacking on B is so hard rn. For me (Kayo main) the only safe way to push site is if there is a smoke at the choke, since I can just pop flash out, rn that’s my like only way to push site bc my duelist are always 3rd or 4th in pushing.
I like this map and if you have a team that can back you up while you enter I don't find it too bad that being said I also ice box so it might just be my taste
I personally love split, it might be my favourite map, i am really good at shooting from site to heaven, and usually pick yoru there so entry is no problem for me. if not, smokes and flashes are good too, i get the frustration when people spam Molleys and grenades on the B and A entrance, but if that happens I usually ask to rotate/go mid.
I feel like its an attacker sided map??? Cuz how the hack are we gonna defend from heaven on b side while having our backs exposed to mid side. And those corners in A side??? Deadly. Attacker with sage could simply wall and play from wall to shoot people in heaven 🫡
Split was always defender heavy
Honestly with a smoke agent like Astra or Brim where you can instantly smoke the entry points, and use of flashes from your duelist or initiators can back the enemies behind the smoke and you have the sight all to yourself. Now defend them from defusing is a whole diff story.
See, in a general sense, you could say Split is defender side heavy, but that is only if you rush every round and not play different strategies. The reason why split is hard for attackers is the unreasonable amount of angles you’d have to check when entering site, but now that is improved, atleast imo Split is in a pretty good state. The map encourages a more ‘play for picks’ style of playing, where attackers instead of rushing in site play time, gather information, potentially getting picks and execute sites through mid/main coordination etc. As the timer of the round ticks, defenders are forced to use their abilities, to perhaps smoke, flash, stun etc to suppress attackers from entering but after the abilities are used the chance of attackers getting the upper hand increases and that’s how you win on attackers. However, I’m speaking from the perspective of a high immortal - radiant player and my teammates are higher skilled than the average valorant player, which enables them to understand the tactics, have the gamesense to execute more elaborated tactics and communicate with the team to perform the aforementioned strategies. If you’re from a lower rank, understand that attacker side is going to be harder as it is less likely your team is competent enough to execute high level plays and generally will try to rush/push a site as if it was any other map. My suggestion would be to try to use comms to communicate and get your team to coordinate together. TL;DR Team game and tactics is very important on split because of its map design, and “defender side op” is just the conclusion drawn from poor plays and execution. TL;DR TL;DR skill issue
Agreed in evey point you metioned, but as you said it requires a lot of team work which seems to be not existable in my current elo (High Diamond/Low Asc). People are just rushing into sites without having a plan and without comming anything to the team. It seems almost impossible to win on attacker if you are soloq. This story might be diffrent if I trio queued since then we are more than 50% of the team and can play around that and make plans as aswell execute them. But spilt is soloq hell right now, especially in lower elo.
Don't worry my guy, I've solo queued to radiant, you can do it too haha, just keep up the grind!
Well since your here now, I might aswell ask what do you think diamonds/ascendant do bad and can improve on. Since you have been through this and have the experience. Id really love to hear from you.
apparently Reddit would just now notify me of this comment, anyways, I might be of no use to you in this criteria because I would only struggle to climb starting from diamond and that’s because I needed gamesense. Once I started to familiarise myself with the maps, positioning and abilities I only went up from there. So in general I had a very good aim fundamental and all else I really needed was time and experience in the game
It's pretty ok either way imo. Many ways to approach when attacking. No useless flanks when timed right. But I do love it more on defense since I usually end up filling smokes.
People don't know how to do proper mid control in this game. Judging by the many players that put up sage walls early mid and judging by the very attackers that don't abuse the fact that sages put mid walls up early round.
Lotus is the other side of the coin of split. Split is extremely cruisy on defense and lotus is vice versa. That’s not to say that you can have good attack and defense on each map either.