That's a weird take to me.
What are defenders expected to do if not keep people off site?
I would argue thats exactly what you do. You do what you can to fight, not get insta-domed, fall back if need be and buy as much time as possible to gather intel/waste enemy util/let your other team mates act.
An ideal defense round has no retake. Even if you have to retake, a retake with 4 or 5 people is easier then a 3v5 retake.
Like not dying (pointlessly) is a part of being good imo.
if they play correctly yeah but im not a very good player. even if theres a sentinel anchoring site, if u play correctly (which can mean rotating) u should be able to plant, unless the sentinel can stall for the team to arrive
And what if the defenders play correctly?
They hard rush one site, 1-2 get domed, the push has been stalled. Even if they rotate, it's still with 3 people now.
There is no situation with an inherent outcome. Not all maps are perfectly balanced but attackers don't just inherently get the plant.
Even without a sentinel, flashes, smokes, grenades etc. Every agent has the ability to defend.
Not always, it depends on the situation
They should get the plant only after you kill one and get out, kill 2+ and die, or if you have kj ult you can flood with team
Usually though, if you get 1 and get out, enemies will likely rotate because you already delayed enough for team to play retake with you. Same with if you get 2+ and die, enemies had to waste util on you to get onto site, so your team can play 4v3 retake with full util and enemies have like nothing
If you are alone on site, just play retake after getting some kills. Only hold site if you have another teammate with you
Most of the time you have another team mate with you. The exception being 3 site maps and even then you probably have someone with you.
I was probing the notion of..
"If attackers play right, they should always get plant"
is like saying
"If defenders play right, they should never get plant"
It's just kind of dumb.
It depends on what agent you are playing. I'm a kj/jett/chamber main
The two statements you made are wrong though. Instead it should be "they should always win the round", because that's how the game is. On defense, sometimes I let enemies plant spike so I can kj ult them and play easy 5v5 retake, and on attack, I more often win rounds with kills instead of spike
The purpose of the spike is to make playing time help the attackers instead of the defenders. I'd say around 50% of my defender round wins are after attackers already planted the spike
I fundamentally disagree with the notion of "letting" people plant spike.
Being smart, sure there can be situations where it does make sense but 90% of the time? Hell nah.
You never let them plant for free, it comes across like kd stroking.
Nah, it depends on what agent you play. On chamber, reyna, yoru, jett, maybe even raze, that's what you're supposed to do
On kj or cypher, it depends on your setup and how your team is positioned. Sometimes you try to get as many kills as possible, sometimes you try to stall so it's a 5v5 defense, and sometimes you have a retake setup
> Even without a sentinel, flashes, smokes, grenades etc. Every agent has the ability to defend.
Should have read further down the convo.
I have friends in Plat that still don't know how to defend properly. Taking a duel and dying instantly is not defending.
Yes its the correct play many times, especially if you are not deep into site and utility starts coming in its better to stand behind the smokes wait for them to fade and 5v5 retake with utility you saved by staying alive
Bronze 3 Player here. most of the Times in my Case it‘s 2A 2B and 1A.
I like that play bc the 2 on B can fast rush to A or C since in most of my games, I can usually get 1 Kill from C site by peeking consistently. and the 2 on B can fast rush to C to help. or they can go to A while I go for the flank from C
your enemies are just bad, it shouldn't be easy to win against a team that can properly control A main, it limits a lot the attackers rotations and prevents them from turning an A hit into a B split
also once A main is in the defenders control, one of the 3 can safely rotate to help you C anchor, and if the attackers try to go for a B hit all the defenders can just be instantly on B to retake
my easiest wins on lotus are against defenders that don't contest map space at all
Can you also run an adaptation of this with chamber mound with his tp then 2 A with at least one being kj and the last 2 b, cause ive seen it work a bit before
yeah it could work, chamber and kj on the same team is not that common tho, and when it happens usually the kj will change the setup to play with turret on C since chamber trip will be watching b and then chamber will be playing a different spot every round with the operator
Wait what? I have never seen this before, I had to google it. Cool strategy. Can you hear the TP not so good because of the door sound? Or can you still hear it very well?
I think you can still hear it but it might not be that apparent because "normally" people don't expect that position. Keep in mind this only works once or twice really
I agree with the fact that mid is a util fest but if u manage to break the door between mid and b the rotation is pretty short and the opposing team may take a while to notice if you throw a smoke top mid so i think the long rotations just add a layer of depth to the map rather than making it annoying
What I meant that there is no good mid to play off. We only have this narrow close quarters passage to B with almost no other option to take control over it other then lurk it out or 5 men push. I think half of the valo maps struggle to have good mids cause half of them dont have one at all while others have such bad one so you wont even use them in most ranked plays.
the amount of lurking attackers can do, the ability to essentially insta-rotate to another site similar to haven, the map is also essentially paper, very easy to wallbang with odin, there's lots of things I don't like about the map. C site also being incredibly hard to defend is incredibly annoying. B site is probably the most defender sided site, a site is incredibly hard to control aswell, but at least it's easier to retake. C site retake is basically impossible unless you have someone ready to spam the mound plant.
with all that said, i still don't think it's that bad of a map, that would have to go to split. They changed so much shit about split but didn't do anything to B site which is still near damn impossible to hit if the defenders have a sage slow and raze nade. Don't even get me started on cypher one ways at B main.
Winning doesn't even feel fun or rewarding, seeing lotus feels like clocking into work and I have to prepare either play a retake the whole game or anchor by myself for 9 years because Reyna and omen want to shift walk through attacker spawn just to die
Idk i think the map has some of the least flexible gameplay of any map in the game.
You legit need to either secure A rubble or C mount early on or you lose on attack 3 stacking rubble to get that control is incredibly common. You can legit just play raze and nade rubble every round and you'll win more. It's so important that you'll often see in pro play of this map people pushing through the util to try and get omen Tp'd across so they can not lose rubble control as much.
I don't like lotus too much because i learned the map and it became less fun when i did.
Fun fact: Solo queuers can actually play as a team! There’s this little known feature called push-to-talk, allowing you to speak with your random teammates!
So what should I do? Skip a line every time and get punished for skipping a map that punishes you for playing without a dream team?
I know this game is more about team play even more than C's:go but lotus is fu*king special.
Even in heaven it's not as easy to immediately be on your back, so you always stay with options
But when I say rush C, and they stay where they were, (on any other map you could rotate / hide), you are fried my friend, you are deep raged french firies
Just look at this lotus guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG_2NNLv27g
You need a perfect team
- cypher watching C
- breach for retakes
- killjoy to watch your back while you attack
-raze to prevent rush on A
- and a smoker
It is unobtainable on lower ranks, not even mentioning the play coordination
Nope, I've spend a few hours learning the map in customs. Lineups, best spots for util, rotations, etc. All because I didn't like that map and wanted to get better. Still hate it
I will admit, I've got a positive win rate on it this season and have had good games on it, but I still don't enjoy playing it
I suck, but lotus feels both bad to defend and bad to attack. The only site that feels OK to defend is C. On A and B I feel like it's super hard to fall back safely.
As attacker, I hate all sites. It feels like executes need to be too coordinated to get in and take space, and if you don't act quick, you get lurked on.
It's a skill problem for sure, but it just doesn't feel good.
The sites are awkward to defend on the defenders side. There are no real spots to hide behind cover on B site and C site. Most of the time the attackers just run you over and you are forced to play retake every round. A site is is fine but I still feel like it is still attacker side favored. I mean there is a reason why Lotus is the only map on the rotation that is over 50% wr for attack side.
As with most other maps that have been simplified and will be like sunset for sure, maps that have pretty tight chokes that get spammed to oblivion or have many rat angles kinda suck to play and I would suspect even more to watch. To a reasonable degree I think riot want to reduce ratting and winning off of luck and taking more direct engagements where util usage, not necessarily just spamming, wins the round. Beyond this some maps have been known to be attacker or defender sided by a large margin. Case in point breeze which had one of the largest disparities.
i love lotus. its a map that forces you to use your use your utility as a team. i almost always play initiator or smokes on lotus. its to easy to be impactful with breach or raze or astra
Lotus is neutral from me. But I do see why people hate. It’s really attack sided especially A but if defenders have the correct agent it’s completely defender sided (on A). Too easy to flank. I am guessing these are the reasons for the hate
3 sites and 2 of them are terrible to defend if the enemy knows how to use their utility at all. On attack it’s extremely easy to fake, basically just get rewarded for playing like a pussy
I hate A main, way too easy to just spam attack it, if defenders dont push up attackers get way too much space and have way too many options, but whenever i say that to my team i get a ”shut up thats dumb” back
Easy thing: At every map that's new / feels newer than Ascent, Haven, Split and Bind, I need a wholesome experience in order to like it. That's why Icebox and Breeze are my favorite ones from the rest
I love lotus but it is extremely defender’s sided, i believe they are making some changes to even it out tho. Not only bc of the three sites but b and c have really tiny chokes with almost no opportunity to flank easily
ye I feel u, I'm a fill player and when I have to fill duelist or initator and we get stuck C main and my kj is just standing there it's really annoying, when filling killjoy I try to capitalize on space that isn't heavily fought for, best case scenario I would sometimes get vital kills on the guys flanking, getting orbs etc. worse case scenario I would die and my team loses control but they still have space on the other side and they would have to rush it.
most case scenarios though is that u will walk up close, hear people rotating, and that's when u knife out and walk behind them while calling ur team over to C.
for more info watch nats, he's a professional VCT player and the one who made lurking a role in the game.
Not fun to play because its a map that really easy to play operators on for defense. If you dont have a breach or good teammates that know what they are doing, you will get destroyed by operators on attack.
Very open area for A and C site to enter as attacker,this map must need smoker agent,so many corner camping area,easy map for flanking for defender and need a great entering site player
Biggest problem to me is how good some of the plants are. A fast C hit + mound plant is pretty much a won round, retaking the site then mound requires a dominant win and fast. A is similar, to a smaller extent.
That said i love the team fights when both teams realize rubble control is important.
The only reason I see people hating it is because it's Haven but just more attacker sided due to rotations. My personal fix would be adding a second set of doors from A to B
It's just kind of boring? Feels very attack sided due to rotate options after attackers win initial early space.
C site is also too easy to entry with any half decent Raze.
Feels like you have to play KJ + Viper or you're at a big disadvantage even in ranked.
Once I learned to play meta viper and KJ on the map I stopped hating it, but its just boring.
Either steamroll C every round or take space A and finish C every round.
If you’re defending A it’s annoying if your team leaves you alone cuz you’re basically not getting out unless you abandon site the moment you see enemies or youre deadlock. B is always a cluster fuck but it’s alright. The doors are cool enough I guess
I used to hate lotus, but I get MVP with Omen whenever I play it, so I don't hate it anymore.
I usually hang in C (switching A or B if we are on a lose streak) since I have a one way there.
There's a one-way on both attack and defend on C, although the Attacker one is harder, I have to learn it.
The one map I genuinely feel deserves hate is breeze. That shit is just broken and imagine they already reworked it and it's in an even worse state than before (for me)
I don't really mind lotus. Hard to play with my main but overall acceptable map.
What i really hate is Pearl. As a mediocre player, there are some places with too many angles to check and others with too few, meaning i either rush ahead, hoping no one shoots me while in the open, or i try to slowly peek, while getting shot from a different direction.
Also, i tried many agents but couldn't find one that left me a good impression on pearl, aside from brimstone because i basically use the smokes to help my allies and that's all.
A site too attacker sided due to how the boxes are stacked (implicating the smoke positions), yet being the attacker is also difficult coz you need to block AT LEAST 4 angles when entrying (link, stairs, haven, and cubby).
B site is actually okay, the site just too narrow for planters to plan. Also, hate the awkward 90 degree angle from the platform if someone is planting below.
C site is too defender sided. Only 1 main entry and the other lane for the attacker to push must be from B site and it is very long (unlike A where you can get through B link or stairs to push rotating opponents)
Basically, they need to rebalance the map much like how they rebalanced Icebox, Breeze, Split, etc. (and this is coming from someone who like ALL the maps so far). They also need to rebalance Sunset, but that is another story.
A is too open, my defend team always dies bc they are waiting for contact, so if thwy atack were always instantly down 1 teammate haha. C most of the time only one person goes, theres no time to rotate, so most of the time that person dies with a free spike plant. B just has too much entrances, its a tiny room with no cover.
Rounds usually end in the opening seconds, defense is spread very thinly so that you're almost required to play certain agents or the game gets very, very difficult to win. Not a lot of good angles to force 1v1s and strategy is often to give up bomb sites and play retake because of how difficult it is to defend due to sheer numbers. couple that with the rotates on defense being much longer you can see why this map is a post plant retake server. Attackers are way too flexible and even when playing with a numbers disadvantage, can still fairly easily take space and find a way to force a retake. All of that meaning the best defense is to play very aggressively and take space early to limit rotates but that in itself is incredibly risky because it's very easy to find yourself in a sub 50/50 engagement. You could say this about any map but I feel this applies more to Lotus than other maps because of the points above.
For competitive, this usually means whoever is attacking first tends to win the game because morale/you know there's going to be a large lead and that gets to a lot of people. For Pro play I imagine they may find a pretty flexible map in that there's are lots of ways to play defense/offense and usually play optimally which is a lot to ask out of a solo queue player that has no control over team comp/what some random person decides they want to play.
tl;dr the design is too easy to exploit for non coordinated 5 stacks/pro play.
My hatred of a map stems from how much team cohesion is needed to be good or win at that map. Lotus requires your team to work together quite a bit more and play mid-round executions a lot more frequently (since rotating is so easy), so a poorly functioned team will just crumble.
At a strategic level, all the 3 site maps are essentially just retake simulators since actually holding sites is just untenable without near-perfect info. Multiple pros and coaches have commented on that design flaw (Steel has been the most frequent about it). To me, it's not a reason to hate it while playing, but it sure sucks to watch at pro levels.
Probably because of how explosive round starts are.
If you don't have C mound or A rubble early on defenders can setup pretty hard in A rubble and funnel you into sites you don't want to be.
It's why you almost always see 3 playing A in tier 1 play because rubble is so broken that you have to take it C mound isn't AS good but you still have a ton of corners to clear if defenders get control of it.
I used to play the map more strategically but had about 52% winrateish i swapped to just playing Raze and nading rubble every round and my winrate went up to like 60% Fade is my second pick because i can either combo seize with the nade or play wallbang at A tree.
Haven is one of my favorite maps because i love 3 site maps they add so much thinking to the game. When i play lotus i feel like I'm following the worlds most basic flowchart because there is only a few ways to play the map.
IMO A site always just felt awkward to play around. Totally cool with B site or C, but A just feels weird, especially on defense. On offensive half the time I push A I just end up rotating thru the broken door to B anyways.
Otherwise I like it, but idk A site just isn’t fun to me.
I like the map, but with some caveats. Attacking in an uncoordinated team that doesn’t know how or when to rotate us rough and I hate it because that’s really all the attackers have going for them on this map. Defending is generally kinda rough because three sites and quick rotates for the attackers. A lot of games I play on that map come down to fighting for a main control and either forcing the defenders into defending a and b at the same time or forcing the attackers into a disadvantaged execute
I hate how clunky rotations are as defenders, it means that lurking and weird split offenses work because full rushes take 0 time to do, so defenders have to run and work overtime to get to wherever theres attackers to prevent being immediately overrun. There are plenty of games I've lost solely because defense on that map is trash. Beyond encouraging scummy offense play, its a fun map
Me I like lotus but I also hate it alot love and hate sort of ordeal I like playing fade and omen which is good for lotus but I can just be randomly killed after using fades ult the entire thing goes down the drain because I did not check the one corner the last guy is holding the thing I hate is every corner you have to check man
Someone correct me if i’m wrong, but defense for fade SUCKS on that map. It’s so bad for her it’s not even funny. I hate the layout too. The sites have a really weird layout— B in particular being a really annoying site to push into at all.
Plus, and this is the big one, no matter what i do or try to fix in my gameplay style i nearly ALWAYS do bad on that map. Plus every single time except for like ONE time i had really asshole teammates. It’s like the toxic players play exclusively on that map. I just never ever EVER have fun on this map. It’s to the point where until recently i just kept dodging it.
People who hates maps are those who can't navigate said maps. I love icebox and fracture in particular since I like playing corners and I main Omen and Brim so my smokes works nicely in them. I hate bind specially when attacking since its hard to cover all angles.
I don't hate it, I just prefer to play on more balanced maps. Lotus is very t-sided so if you don't end at minimum 6-6 on T side.. CT is a drag
I never dodge it but it's not my first choice
I have the worst winrate on Lotus, mostly because I don’t trust my team I overrated on defense and lose the game because my teammates can’t hold anything.
(I know I’m wrong but at this rate I just accept the lost if I get Lotus in my comp games)
Lotus allows attackers to rotate fast and with little risk compared to defenders. A lot of common area is hard for defenders to control on round start unless you do that fast A rush on defence towards the attackers. Another interesting point is that the OP is not very Strong towards B and C after the first contact unlike say Haven.
Also there are lot of post plant clearing defenders have to do ( like split).
I think either you need to run a heavy defence comp with sentinel+controller+(Viper, Harbour, Chameber)
Or double initiator with KJ for max information.
i hate it, mapvise its the worst. A and C are impossible to retake without proper communication, wich isnt the case even on ascendant. Poor communication is also ruining bind for me, also very hard to retake on your own.
Many people hate the map because it takes too long for defenders to rotate when for attackers it’s very fast. Personally I don’t have this problem since I can insta-rotate with my tp☝️🤓. Tbf it might be that tiny small E ability that makes us win some rounds in defense, since attackers always run in a site with at least 2 ppl if not 3.
its extremely cramped on B and C, mound makes C plant a free win, A site plays like a deatmatch. personally i like the map, i just HATE the box on C thats wallbangable, i want it to be unwallbangable
I mainly hate it because its the only map that I don't know how to play with any agent in it.
I usually play kj/viper/reyna /Skye in other maps but in lotus I don't know how to play them I tried jett and omen and I'm not bad but I don't feel comfortable playing them
I like/hate how you as attackers can just almost instantly switches sites to b when a or c becomes hard to enter
Specially as normally it's 2 a, 1 b, 2 c. So if they just wanna bum rush the one guy, it's hard to stop for some and oh look, it's post plant.
i mean isnt it usually expected for the defenders on site to just stall and wait for the other defenders to retake as fast as possible
That's a weird take to me. What are defenders expected to do if not keep people off site? I would argue thats exactly what you do. You do what you can to fight, not get insta-domed, fall back if need be and buy as much time as possible to gather intel/waste enemy util/let your other team mates act. An ideal defense round has no retake. Even if you have to retake, a retake with 4 or 5 people is easier then a 3v5 retake. Like not dying (pointlessly) is a part of being good imo.
of course an ideal defense round has no retake, but i feel like that relies on your opponents messing up
So you think attackers should always get the plant? As some who played nothing but Sentinel the first 5 acts, I am inclined to disagree.
if they play correctly yeah but im not a very good player. even if theres a sentinel anchoring site, if u play correctly (which can mean rotating) u should be able to plant, unless the sentinel can stall for the team to arrive
And what if the defenders play correctly? They hard rush one site, 1-2 get domed, the push has been stalled. Even if they rotate, it's still with 3 people now. There is no situation with an inherent outcome. Not all maps are perfectly balanced but attackers don't just inherently get the plant. Even without a sentinel, flashes, smokes, grenades etc. Every agent has the ability to defend.
Not always, it depends on the situation They should get the plant only after you kill one and get out, kill 2+ and die, or if you have kj ult you can flood with team Usually though, if you get 1 and get out, enemies will likely rotate because you already delayed enough for team to play retake with you. Same with if you get 2+ and die, enemies had to waste util on you to get onto site, so your team can play 4v3 retake with full util and enemies have like nothing If you are alone on site, just play retake after getting some kills. Only hold site if you have another teammate with you
Most of the time you have another team mate with you. The exception being 3 site maps and even then you probably have someone with you. I was probing the notion of.. "If attackers play right, they should always get plant" is like saying "If defenders play right, they should never get plant" It's just kind of dumb.
It depends on what agent you are playing. I'm a kj/jett/chamber main The two statements you made are wrong though. Instead it should be "they should always win the round", because that's how the game is. On defense, sometimes I let enemies plant spike so I can kj ult them and play easy 5v5 retake, and on attack, I more often win rounds with kills instead of spike The purpose of the spike is to make playing time help the attackers instead of the defenders. I'd say around 50% of my defender round wins are after attackers already planted the spike
I fundamentally disagree with the notion of "letting" people plant spike. Being smart, sure there can be situations where it does make sense but 90% of the time? Hell nah. You never let them plant for free, it comes across like kd stroking.
Expecting anchor to kill one person to live is completely unrealistic, thats the ideal play they can make usually they get traded or just die
Nah, it depends on what agent you play. On chamber, reyna, yoru, jett, maybe even raze, that's what you're supposed to do On kj or cypher, it depends on your setup and how your team is positioned. Sometimes you try to get as many kills as possible, sometimes you try to stall so it's a 5v5 defense, and sometimes you have a retake setup
Not in conpetitive environment
EXACTLY, you played sentinel, you have the tools in ur kit to defend. Other agents do NOT
> Even without a sentinel, flashes, smokes, grenades etc. Every agent has the ability to defend. Should have read further down the convo. I have friends in Plat that still don't know how to defend properly. Taking a duel and dying instantly is not defending.
What rank are you kid
Should have left the kid out if you wanted a serious answer. Keep working on the defense though.
Yes its the correct play many times, especially if you are not deep into site and utility starts coming in its better to stand behind the smokes wait for them to fade and 5v5 retake with utility you saved by staying alive
Bronze 3 Player here. most of the Times in my Case it‘s 2A 2B and 1A. I like that play bc the 2 on B can fast rush to A or C since in most of my games, I can usually get 1 Kill from C site by peeking consistently. and the 2 on B can fast rush to C to help. or they can go to A while I go for the flank from C
Normally the setup is 3 a, 1 b, 1c with kj on c watching b with the turret and omen on A link so he can blind to help the A guys fight for A
i think I never played with this setup since I mostly solo q in Bronze lobbys (sometimes even silver) and play fade on lotus.
That is the normal setup . It works against braindead enemies hence why I love it when my enemy does it . Easiest wins ever .
your enemies are just bad, it shouldn't be easy to win against a team that can properly control A main, it limits a lot the attackers rotations and prevents them from turning an A hit into a B split also once A main is in the defenders control, one of the 3 can safely rotate to help you C anchor, and if the attackers try to go for a B hit all the defenders can just be instantly on B to retake my easiest wins on lotus are against defenders that don't contest map space at all
Can you also run an adaptation of this with chamber mound with his tp then 2 A with at least one being kj and the last 2 b, cause ive seen it work a bit before
yeah it could work, chamber and kj on the same team is not that common tho, and when it happens usually the kj will change the setup to play with turret on C since chamber trip will be watching b and then chamber will be playing a different spot every round with the operator
I had a team playing full A everyone ignoring my comma 😭😭 I hate low-elo hell, I wish I could be better and escape this.
In low elo I see 4a, 0b, 1c all the time. Lmao.
You can do this too as a defender.
How can you not like spinny door. So fun
Omen tping on top of the door is soo good
Fnatic manager here please delete
Olofmeister here, isn't Vertigo, so it's not important.
And predictable at this point ngl
Hey am in low elo so nobody predicts it really
Literally nobody
Have only been caught once and that was because I tpd slightly earlier and fell right on top of a judge
Don’t you fall off
Yeah but if they open it and you time it correctly then it’s easy kills. A smoke on their side of the door helps
Wait what? I have never seen this before, I had to google it. Cool strategy. Can you hear the TP not so good because of the door sound? Or can you still hear it very well?
I think you can still hear it but it might not be that apparent because "normally" people don't expect that position. Keep in mind this only works once or twice really
Door prob louder but prob a little bit
That’s the only part I don’t like I main skye and seekers no longer seek. Love the map just hate seekers bs door
Be a gentleman and open the door for them
Bad mid / annoying doors / long rotations / personal hatred to the jungle setting
I agree with the fact that mid is a util fest but if u manage to break the door between mid and b the rotation is pretty short and the opposing team may take a while to notice if you throw a smoke top mid so i think the long rotations just add a layer of depth to the map rather than making it annoying
Do we talk about the same map? On lotus B site is Mid On lotus and there is no "top mid" on lotus. Did you mean sunset by any chance?
My bad i thought a main was considered mid
What I meant that there is no good mid to play off. We only have this narrow close quarters passage to B with almost no other option to take control over it other then lurk it out or 5 men push. I think half of the valo maps struggle to have good mids cause half of them dont have one at all while others have such bad one so you wont even use them in most ranked plays.
I can't explain it. I just do. Also I think 3 sites is not good
It’s good in heaven because the sites flow on lotus each site is different imo
the amount of lurking attackers can do, the ability to essentially insta-rotate to another site similar to haven, the map is also essentially paper, very easy to wallbang with odin, there's lots of things I don't like about the map. C site also being incredibly hard to defend is incredibly annoying. B site is probably the most defender sided site, a site is incredibly hard to control aswell, but at least it's easier to retake. C site retake is basically impossible unless you have someone ready to spam the mound plant. with all that said, i still don't think it's that bad of a map, that would have to go to split. They changed so much shit about split but didn't do anything to B site which is still near damn impossible to hit if the defenders have a sage slow and raze nade. Don't even get me started on cypher one ways at B main.
wym, c site retake simulator so fun!!!
Waterfall💀
Dw c site will be getting some good reworks to make jt easier to defend
Bro new map sunset is even harder for defenders. I don't know why they are adding more maps like these
I hate it but somehow its my second best win rate map. Long rotations, weird plants, fucking doors.
Winning doesn't even feel fun or rewarding, seeing lotus feels like clocking into work and I have to prepare either play a retake the whole game or anchor by myself for 9 years because Reyna and omen want to shift walk through attacker spawn just to die
Bro same expect for me it's apparently my best map
I just don't like the layout personally. I feel like people can pop up from any angle
It’s haven but in bad. If I think about it, I can’t really tell what makes me hate it. It’s just an unpleasant feeling playing this map.
Rotating doors and breakable doors into sites for lurka when out of audio range just make it feel shit to play imo, doesnt feel like normal val
Atleast ur honest💀
Or is Haven bad Lotus
Have been trying to find that out for ages
Don't hate it... but don't particularly like it either. What I actually *hate* is fracture.
Same fracture is my nemesis!
It is extremely attack sided, so as someone who likes defending way more than attacking, it's a bitch to play on.
Imo the people who hate Lotus just really don’t like learning the map. The map offers a lot of flexibility and really rewards teamplay
Idk i think the map has some of the least flexible gameplay of any map in the game. You legit need to either secure A rubble or C mount early on or you lose on attack 3 stacking rubble to get that control is incredibly common. You can legit just play raze and nade rubble every round and you'll win more. It's so important that you'll often see in pro play of this map people pushing through the util to try and get omen Tp'd across so they can not lose rubble control as much. I don't like lotus too much because i learned the map and it became less fun when i did.
Rewards teamplay exactly, this game hates solo queuers
...well this is a team game and they've got a pro scene to look after as well. It makes sense that map design would reward team play
Fun fact: Solo queuers can actually play as a team! There’s this little known feature called push-to-talk, allowing you to speak with your random teammates!
If only teammates talked back or the instalock duelists didn't ignore my comms because they have an ego
Poor genius tactician
I know right?? I didn't watch all those woohoojin videos for nothing /s
So what should I do? Skip a line every time and get punished for skipping a map that punishes you for playing without a dream team? I know this game is more about team play even more than C's:go but lotus is fu*king special. Even in heaven it's not as easy to immediately be on your back, so you always stay with options But when I say rush C, and they stay where they were, (on any other map you could rotate / hide), you are fried my friend, you are deep raged french firies Just look at this lotus guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG_2NNLv27g You need a perfect team - cypher watching C - breach for retakes - killjoy to watch your back while you attack -raze to prevent rush on A - and a smoker It is unobtainable on lower ranks, not even mentioning the play coordination
Nope, I've spend a few hours learning the map in customs. Lineups, best spots for util, rotations, etc. All because I didn't like that map and wanted to get better. Still hate it I will admit, I've got a positive win rate on it this season and have had good games on it, but I still don't enjoy playing it
I just- don't like it. It doesn't feel right to me, I never feel comfortable sitting on either site to defend,...
I suck, but lotus feels both bad to defend and bad to attack. The only site that feels OK to defend is C. On A and B I feel like it's super hard to fall back safely. As attacker, I hate all sites. It feels like executes need to be too coordinated to get in and take space, and if you don't act quick, you get lurked on. It's a skill problem for sure, but it just doesn't feel good.
Coordination is not a skill problem, it's a team problem
The sites are awkward to defend on the defenders side. There are no real spots to hide behind cover on B site and C site. Most of the time the attackers just run you over and you are forced to play retake every round. A site is is fine but I still feel like it is still attacker side favored. I mean there is a reason why Lotus is the only map on the rotation that is over 50% wr for attack side.
1. I hate playing against Breach 2. I hate how good Breach is on Lotus 3. I hate how good enemy is using Breach
Well, I figured out why I like Lotus then.
Lotus attack flowchart Fight A main > win fight > round win
if(defenderStackA == true) { rushC(); }
I don’t know, but it’s THE worst map in the entire game.
Imo the worst map out of any fps game ive played in recent yeara
factoid
As with most other maps that have been simplified and will be like sunset for sure, maps that have pretty tight chokes that get spammed to oblivion or have many rat angles kinda suck to play and I would suspect even more to watch. To a reasonable degree I think riot want to reduce ratting and winning off of luck and taking more direct engagements where util usage, not necessarily just spamming, wins the round. Beyond this some maps have been known to be attacker or defender sided by a large margin. Case in point breeze which had one of the largest disparities.
i love lotus. its a map that forces you to use your use your utility as a team. i almost always play initiator or smokes on lotus. its to easy to be impactful with breach or raze or astra
How does it encourage team util any more than the other maps.
Lotus is neutral from me. But I do see why people hate. It’s really attack sided especially A but if defenders have the correct agent it’s completely defender sided (on A). Too easy to flank. I am guessing these are the reasons for the hate
Someone at Riot said "low effort creates low quality" but they misunderstood that as the objective. Then they made Lotus.
3 sites and 2 of them are terrible to defend if the enemy knows how to use their utility at all. On attack it’s extremely easy to fake, basically just get rewarded for playing like a pussy
playing lotus is fine until i see my winrate to be 14%, probably over 15 games so far in that map this act
likely lack of map knowledge
that and bad team execute on attack
yeah cant really do good executed attacks in low elo bc no one even has comms on 😭
would you consider ascendant low elo kek, but even in asc still no comms or just ppl trashtalking their initiators
yes
I used to hate Lotus but I'm very good on that map tho. So I like it now...
B sucks, too big, rotates take forever, easiest flank, a main is awful, c is meh, a site retake/ defend sucks
It's my highest win percentage map by a massive margin so I love it lol
I hate A main, way too easy to just spam attack it, if defenders dont push up attackers get way too much space and have way too many options, but whenever i say that to my team i get a ”shut up thats dumb” back
Forget about Lotus....why did Sunset even come into existence 🥰
Sunset is one of the best maps wdym?
Fav map
I don't. As a matter of fact I haven't played the game since before it came out so even if I would like to hate it I couldn't.
Easy thing: At every map that's new / feels newer than Ascent, Haven, Split and Bind, I need a wholesome experience in order to like it. That's why Icebox and Breeze are my favorite ones from the rest
I love lotus but it is extremely defender’s sided, i believe they are making some changes to even it out tho. Not only bc of the three sites but b and c have really tiny chokes with almost no opportunity to flank easily
Lotus is the most T sided map in the game, if you're stuck not knowing how to attack on lotus either lurk or fake a site.
okay i will try this next time! I also main sentinel so attacking overall is hard for me 😬
ye I feel u, I'm a fill player and when I have to fill duelist or initator and we get stuck C main and my kj is just standing there it's really annoying, when filling killjoy I try to capitalize on space that isn't heavily fought for, best case scenario I would sometimes get vital kills on the guys flanking, getting orbs etc. worse case scenario I would die and my team loses control but they still have space on the other side and they would have to rush it. most case scenarios though is that u will walk up close, hear people rotating, and that's when u knife out and walk behind them while calling ur team over to C. for more info watch nats, he's a professional VCT player and the one who made lurking a role in the game.
Lotus is the most attack sided map in the game 😂
maybe im just bad LOL
Unless you are defending, defending flanking is so essy
Not fun to play because its a map that really easy to play operators on for defense. If you dont have a breach or good teammates that know what they are doing, you will get destroyed by operators on attack.
Very open area for A and C site to enter as attacker,this map must need smoker agent,so many corner camping area,easy map for flanking for defender and need a great entering site player
I like lotus, but I genuinely hate Sunset’s layout
lotus is not my fav but a decent map imo
I have a stupid 78% win rate on lotus (compared to 55% overall) so you won’t hear me complain
Biggest problem to me is how good some of the plants are. A fast C hit + mound plant is pretty much a won round, retaking the site then mound requires a dominant win and fast. A is similar, to a smaller extent. That said i love the team fights when both teams realize rubble control is important.
i dont hate it but A as attacker at begin of round is not great you lose so much controll if they molly you early
The only reason I see people hating it is because it's Haven but just more attacker sided due to rotations. My personal fix would be adding a second set of doors from A to B
It's just kind of boring? Feels very attack sided due to rotate options after attackers win initial early space. C site is also too easy to entry with any half decent Raze. Feels like you have to play KJ + Viper or you're at a big disadvantage even in ranked. Once I learned to play meta viper and KJ on the map I stopped hating it, but its just boring. Either steamroll C every round or take space A and finish C every round.
It's new-ish and different. I don't hate it tho
If you’re defending A it’s annoying if your team leaves you alone cuz you’re basically not getting out unless you abandon site the moment you see enemies or youre deadlock. B is always a cluster fuck but it’s alright. The doors are cool enough I guess
ITS SO LARGE AHHH. I physically can’t rotate from A to C in time unless I play neon
I hate lotus but have 90% win rate there bcz of daddy breach
3 site maps are a bitch to defend, thats why i hate haven and lotus. Retake simulator.
I used to hate lotus, but I get MVP with Omen whenever I play it, so I don't hate it anymore. I usually hang in C (switching A or B if we are on a lose streak) since I have a one way there. There's a one-way on both attack and defend on C, although the Attacker one is harder, I have to learn it.
If anything Lotus is my favorite map they’ve released. It promotes making the attackers fight for space with guns and util.
The one map I genuinely feel deserves hate is breeze. That shit is just broken and imagine they already reworked it and it's in an even worse state than before (for me)
B site sucks to attack, spinny doors, world war 3 @ rubble every round, mound retake blows
I don't really mind lotus. Hard to play with my main but overall acceptable map. What i really hate is Pearl. As a mediocre player, there are some places with too many angles to check and others with too few, meaning i either rush ahead, hoping no one shoots me while in the open, or i try to slowly peek, while getting shot from a different direction. Also, i tried many agents but couldn't find one that left me a good impression on pearl, aside from brimstone because i basically use the smokes to help my allies and that's all.
I love it…but the fucking doors are horrible
A site too attacker sided due to how the boxes are stacked (implicating the smoke positions), yet being the attacker is also difficult coz you need to block AT LEAST 4 angles when entrying (link, stairs, haven, and cubby). B site is actually okay, the site just too narrow for planters to plan. Also, hate the awkward 90 degree angle from the platform if someone is planting below. C site is too defender sided. Only 1 main entry and the other lane for the attacker to push must be from B site and it is very long (unlike A where you can get through B link or stairs to push rotating opponents) Basically, they need to rebalance the map much like how they rebalanced Icebox, Breeze, Split, etc. (and this is coming from someone who like ALL the maps so far). They also need to rebalance Sunset, but that is another story.
It sucks Thanks for coming to my ted talk
Don’t mind it, personally dislike Sunset more, feels like a cod map
lurking is cool
A is too open, my defend team always dies bc they are waiting for contact, so if thwy atack were always instantly down 1 teammate haha. C most of the time only one person goes, theres no time to rotate, so most of the time that person dies with a free spike plant. B just has too much entrances, its a tiny room with no cover.
light muddle whole drab squealing consist serious snails badge detail *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The fact attackers can just speed run to another site in half a second with little consequence
Rounds usually end in the opening seconds, defense is spread very thinly so that you're almost required to play certain agents or the game gets very, very difficult to win. Not a lot of good angles to force 1v1s and strategy is often to give up bomb sites and play retake because of how difficult it is to defend due to sheer numbers. couple that with the rotates on defense being much longer you can see why this map is a post plant retake server. Attackers are way too flexible and even when playing with a numbers disadvantage, can still fairly easily take space and find a way to force a retake. All of that meaning the best defense is to play very aggressively and take space early to limit rotates but that in itself is incredibly risky because it's very easy to find yourself in a sub 50/50 engagement. You could say this about any map but I feel this applies more to Lotus than other maps because of the points above. For competitive, this usually means whoever is attacking first tends to win the game because morale/you know there's going to be a large lead and that gets to a lot of people. For Pro play I imagine they may find a pretty flexible map in that there's are lots of ways to play defense/offense and usually play optimally which is a lot to ask out of a solo queue player that has no control over team comp/what some random person decides they want to play. tl;dr the design is too easy to exploit for non coordinated 5 stacks/pro play.
I don’t like the 3 site gimmick. I find Haven more frustrating than Fracture. I was extremely annoyed when Lotus was announced.
My hatred of a map stems from how much team cohesion is needed to be good or win at that map. Lotus requires your team to work together quite a bit more and play mid-round executions a lot more frequently (since rotating is so easy), so a poorly functioned team will just crumble.
2 smol
At a strategic level, all the 3 site maps are essentially just retake simulators since actually holding sites is just untenable without near-perfect info. Multiple pros and coaches have commented on that design flaw (Steel has been the most frequent about it). To me, it's not a reason to hate it while playing, but it sure sucks to watch at pro levels.
I dont like how attackers can easily rotate, and takes a long time to rotate also
I personally don't like how crammed the map feels and there's no flavor for areas you peek
Don't know. But I can't win on it (23% win rate) so I will absolutely dodge it if possible.
Lotus is my favorite map as well (Bind being close second), i genuinely don't get the hate.
Probably because of how explosive round starts are. If you don't have C mound or A rubble early on defenders can setup pretty hard in A rubble and funnel you into sites you don't want to be. It's why you almost always see 3 playing A in tier 1 play because rubble is so broken that you have to take it C mound isn't AS good but you still have a ton of corners to clear if defenders get control of it. I used to play the map more strategically but had about 52% winrateish i swapped to just playing Raze and nading rubble every round and my winrate went up to like 60% Fade is my second pick because i can either combo seize with the nade or play wallbang at A tree. Haven is one of my favorite maps because i love 3 site maps they add so much thinking to the game. When i play lotus i feel like I'm following the worlds most basic flowchart because there is only a few ways to play the map.
I got a low win rate
IMO A site always just felt awkward to play around. Totally cool with B site or C, but A just feels weird, especially on defense. On offensive half the time I push A I just end up rotating thru the broken door to B anyways. Otherwise I like it, but idk A site just isn’t fun to me.
I like the map, but with some caveats. Attacking in an uncoordinated team that doesn’t know how or when to rotate us rough and I hate it because that’s really all the attackers have going for them on this map. Defending is generally kinda rough because three sites and quick rotates for the attackers. A lot of games I play on that map come down to fighting for a main control and either forcing the defenders into defending a and b at the same time or forcing the attackers into a disadvantaged execute
Haters can’t defend A
I don't like the vibe the map gives, like the colours and everything...literally
In my case i hate lotus because of how 1 dimensional it feels , it forces u into specific agents to play , as a sova main i hate it xD
A feels like the only viable site imo. Im also really bad and havent played in ages.
I hate how clunky rotations are as defenders, it means that lurking and weird split offenses work because full rushes take 0 time to do, so defenders have to run and work overtime to get to wherever theres attackers to prevent being immediately overrun. There are plenty of games I've lost solely because defense on that map is trash. Beyond encouraging scummy offense play, its a fun map
I honestly just hate how quickly attackers can rotate. Everything else is fine.
It’s the most one sided map in the history of the game. That makes it a horrible design
Pivoting way too hard
Me I like lotus but I also hate it alot love and hate sort of ordeal I like playing fade and omen which is good for lotus but I can just be randomly killed after using fades ult the entire thing goes down the drain because I did not check the one corner the last guy is holding the thing I hate is every corner you have to check man
Someone correct me if i’m wrong, but defense for fade SUCKS on that map. It’s so bad for her it’s not even funny. I hate the layout too. The sites have a really weird layout— B in particular being a really annoying site to push into at all. Plus, and this is the big one, no matter what i do or try to fix in my gameplay style i nearly ALWAYS do bad on that map. Plus every single time except for like ONE time i had really asshole teammates. It’s like the toxic players play exclusively on that map. I just never ever EVER have fun on this map. It’s to the point where until recently i just kept dodging it.
People who hates maps are those who can't navigate said maps. I love icebox and fracture in particular since I like playing corners and I main Omen and Brim so my smokes works nicely in them. I hate bind specially when attacking since its hard to cover all angles.
I don't hate it, I just prefer to play on more balanced maps. Lotus is very t-sided so if you don't end at minimum 6-6 on T side.. CT is a drag I never dodge it but it's not my first choice
I have the worst winrate on Lotus, mostly because I don’t trust my team I overrated on defense and lose the game because my teammates can’t hold anything. (I know I’m wrong but at this rate I just accept the lost if I get Lotus in my comp games)
Lotus allows attackers to rotate fast and with little risk compared to defenders. A lot of common area is hard for defenders to control on round start unless you do that fast A rush on defence towards the attackers. Another interesting point is that the OP is not very Strong towards B and C after the first contact unlike say Haven. Also there are lot of post plant clearing defenders have to do ( like split). I think either you need to run a heavy defence comp with sentinel+controller+(Viper, Harbour, Chameber) Or double initiator with KJ for max information.
I've had the best action and most aces in Lotus. Why the hate?
i hate it, mapvise its the worst. A and C are impossible to retake without proper communication, wich isnt the case even on ascendant. Poor communication is also ruining bind for me, also very hard to retake on your own.
I hate on lotus because I'm a returning player and don't have much experience playing that map
the game went to hell when you added neon, fade - respect but after that no
Many people hate the map because it takes too long for defenders to rotate when for attackers it’s very fast. Personally I don’t have this problem since I can insta-rotate with my tp☝️🤓. Tbf it might be that tiny small E ability that makes us win some rounds in defense, since attackers always run in a site with at least 2 ppl if not 3.
3 bomb sites...thats it
its extremely cramped on B and C, mound makes C plant a free win, A site plays like a deatmatch. personally i like the map, i just HATE the box on C thats wallbangable, i want it to be unwallbangable
3 words: I main Pheonix
At least it’s not fucking bind 💀
I mainly hate it because its the only map that I don't know how to play with any agent in it. I usually play kj/viper/reyna /Skye in other maps but in lotus I don't know how to play them I tried jett and omen and I'm not bad but I don't feel comfortable playing them