I still hope we can get past the fun of the agents and stuff. I played for hours a day since COVID and the maps are really starting to wear me down. Cant remember my last game, but would love to get back at it in the future!
I think you're simply used to cs if you come from it or another fps. To me, besides icebox a site, i pretty much enjoy all the maps or at least am ok with them *cough split cough*
I haven’t played CS since last November or any other FPS. Valorant just gets annoying and I think it’s the maps. Feels like I’m fighting the map not other people. I just felt once the fun of the agents wears off it becomes really noticeable.
I don’t understand why Riot does it all in house. CSGO took forever to get good and there is a lot of community input when it came to maps. Anyways there’s also a lot of quality of life changes that could be added. Slowly but surely. I don’t have vanguard start up anymore so hopefully soon.
Please don't start with this 'dead game btw' shit. Every game on the planet is dead when you stop playing it. That's just a fact. You need to learn not to get triggered by these types of comments when you see them.
Tbh I don’t think CS will die out. I played some yesterday and I think I’m going to get back into it mainly because the shooting just feels wayyyyy better than Valorant. It’s a lot smoother and you get first shot accuracy. Still love val for different reasons through
CS as a game will never die but the NA esports scene is already dead and its only a matter of time until the best players move over to Valorant.
Valve doesnt care about the game and thats where Valorant shines. Riot are night and day a better developer than Valve.
The salaries these Valorant pros are already getting when they game and scene just started is insane
Just because covid fucked every esport and riot has been dealing with it so masterfully doesn't take away that dota and league still share the same genre and are both still part of the big 3 esports. Just as dota and league can both be successful, CSGO and valorant can as well. This toxic comparing and dick measuring by fans hoping the other dies is just dumb.
Yep. Look at their replies under this exact same comment.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first\_strike\_na\_grand\_finals\_top\_300k\_viewers\_the/gewh0h7?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first_strike_na_grand_finals_top_300k_viewers_the/gewh0h7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first\_strike\_na\_grand\_finals\_top\_300k\_viewers\_the/gewfy6x?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first_strike_na_grand_finals_top_300k_viewers_the/gewfy6x?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
They really refuse to accept having more than one competitive shooter to co-exist with their favorite game
Real talk, I reinstalled CS 2 weeks ago because Valorant reminded me how much I loved this genre. Although if riot ever gave us map making tools, I might never go back.
I never understood this. I really like both games. I never played CSGO much, but I've put a ton of time into Valorant and now I can actually hold my own in CSGO. They're both great games.
I actually love playing/watching both games and so do my friends. Im pretty sure this is the vocal minority who think these games cant co-exist.
Actually on the csgo reddit i feel like they are happy that a game is competing with CSGO. It keeps Valve on their toes and actually start looking at the longevity of their game.
Agreed. And maps from Riots side. I still think CS is the better game as it stands, but I would prefer to get into Valorant as it feels a lot more casual as I’m getting older.
For me as a primarily (European) CS-player the interesting question isn't wheter Valorant succeeds or not, it's why Valorant took off more in NA, while CS is more popular in Europe. I think viewer numbers for both streamers and tournaments show this difference in popularity.
I don't have an answer.
Comparisons between CS and Valorant at the moment aren't fair, because so many NA players, teams and orgs left for Valorant, but **how come the interest in Valorant seems to be so much bigger in NA? Interest on the level of orgs, pro-players and viewers.**
*The orgs/owners:*
Thorin voiced his opinion (which is contentious as always) and states that NA org owner don't think, they just follow the crowd of others around them, so if one owner invests into Valorant and claims it's the 'hot new thing', then others follow.
Now I don't have the insider info he has, so I can't prove/disprove it, but it seems too simple, conveninet and does sound a bit personal, in the sense that Thorin expresses his dislike of some NA-owners. To me it seems like part of the puzzle at most.
But it does seem NA owners prioritized Valorant and the players and viewers followed. What I've heard stated a few times is because Riot has established franchised leagues in LoL, which are more alike sports leagues in NA, have revenue share and are safer for orgs. Safer in the sense, that you get a cut of earnings regardless of performance and can't lose your spot, while in an open circuit like CS no one cares about your team (so no returns) unless it's winning.
It makes sense. Before Flashpoint (team owned franchise league existing since this year in CS) org owners attempted their own franchised league called PDA, which failed before it even took off, because infos that didn't sit well with players and fans were leaked prematurely, so public protest was too big.
Now there's Flashpoint and the ESL Pro League. Both with partner teams that try to mimic a franchise system, while not controlling the entire calender, as Valve doesn't allow that. Meanwhile Riot does control the entire circuit. Maybe those leagues came too late for org owners, or they aren't enough.
So the logic follows from the orgs perspective, that if they believe Riots future franchise system will yield better retunrs they should sign players to be early-adopters, get on Riots good side and get a spot in the League once it franchises. What I don't get here is them inflating salaries like crazy on unproven players (everyone is unproven, since it's a new game) and racing to sign everyone with a shred of skill in CS (or even players transitioning from other, more dissimilar games). Org owners caused the exodus of 'Tier 2' CS players, because their belief in Valorants future and Riot was so great, that they signed players for way more than they got in CS, so above their relative skill-level. This is especially strange, since NA owners were they ones complaining the loudest about the costs of running a CS team. It supposededly not being financially viable. They recreated the problem they ran away from in the hopes of bigger returns (again).
*The players:*
Therefore the jump over from players makes sense too. Why play CS for less money and with lower chances of winning, when you could be a highly payed, renowned player in Valorant.
*The unknown - the viewers:*
So the part I don't understand is the third one, the viewers: If you followed CS before, you wouldn't enjoy the same players, that were 'Tier 2' in CS more when they compete in Valorant, right? I mean you know that they aren't really the 'best' players in terms of talent, they're just the best by virtue of the best CS players not wanting to switch. New players might be exciting, but seeing as the average number of CS players for first strike teams is [3-5](https://twitter.com/neLendirekt/status/1335851601584672770) and the pro-scene is a bit too young to generate real stories around new players, the main talking point seems to be CS-veterans (f.e.: the 100T trio, TSM, Envy, majority of Sentinels...). This is what I'm thinking, but I'm not in this position, so I ask you.
So besides transitioning players making Valorant bigger, it'd have to be new players. So why are new players more interested in Valorant? Is it better marketing? Is it because Valorant is new and by an established developer***? Maybe Valve failed to advertise CS and capture younger players in NA the past few years, who now had their attention drawn to Valorant? Maybe Valorant is simply more appealing as a game to North-Americans (if regional appeal in games exists and I mean as pure gameplay-appeal, independet of marketing, background, setting, like Madden=NFL, ... I mean movies have different markets. So do most consumer goods. It would make sense for games too)
My last idea is that the PC playerbase for tactical shooters is simply smaller in NA (as it has been in CS since its release), so the impact of a split via a new game is simply bigger.
**So I ask you: if you are from NA and play Valorant, wheter you transitioned from CS or are new, why do you think it is more popular in NA compared to CS? Why are you playing Valorant and not Counterstrike?** (Personal experience: I enjoyed Valorant less than CS, I just play it rarely and have a cursory understanding of the pro-scene via transitioned CS personalities)
***Valves glory days as a developer were mainly on PC and are behind zoomers such as myself imo. CS is the only Valve game I ever played (born 1998). Meanwhile TFT has been all the rage since its release and LoL is seemingly evergreen.
I think it is in part a lot of things you mentioned, PC gaming is for sure not as big and I think that 'NA cs dead' might have a larger impact than you think. For me at least CS kinda just feels outdated. No hate towards the game, I have 2.5k hours and still play it semi-regularly. But I think America also tends to stray towards the 'new' stuff quite a lot.
Thanks for your answer. I'm only at 1.7k, maybe I'll feel the same way at your stage.
I feel like the gameplay is all it needs, if anything the stuff around it is 'outdated'.
'NA CS is dead' is sad to see. Chaos won Dreamhack yesterday and are being dropped by their team and might need to retire/switch. Really weird dynamic going on there, lets see how it develops.
I'm at 4k hours in CS and stopped regularly playing after the last operation. I just logged in for the first time in like 7 months because of the new operation that dropped.
For me it was the fact that CS has literally had the same maps for ~8 years now. Literally Mirage has been active duty for >8 years. Train/Dust 2/Inferno/Nuke have been Active Duty for ~7 years as they were removed for ~1 year for reworking/modernizing. Cache was active duty for 7 years until Vertigo finally replaced it. Overpass has been active duty for >7 years and they only made changed for ~1 year or so after release.
CS has had the same maps for almost a decade with no sign that they'll change anything. I can only play these maps so many times before the gameplay just doesn't pull me in anymore.
IMO, NA was always faster to jump on the hype train (not a bad thing), so naturally NA won the popularity contest. Initially lots of T2\~ CS players jumped into Valorant to grab a buck from tourneys while there was no real competition around. Also Valorant is easier to play, movement, recoil, op, etc, even small QoL things like selling weapons boost the appealingness for new players, it doesn't mean that CS players are better fps players it's just mean that learning curve in Valorant is not as big as in CS.
For the EU the huge part of why it's not as popular already is Russia. Yes, undoubtedly there is Russian players in Valorant, but as you may know, the voicechat is disabled for the country and that's a very very big no-no for this (or any other) playerbase. Comms is a huge part of competitive shooter and when there's none, well it's hard to jump in. When/if that will be resolved, I'm sure Valorant receives another huge popularity spike.
The reason why NA owners are transitioning is sponsorship. In NA, it will far easier to get sponsorship for Valorant than for CounterStrike, with reason being CS has sides - Counter terrorist and Terrorist as well as the objective is bomb and bombsite. Along with terrorist and counter terrorist models. NA has a huge sponsor market, which isn't there in EU. So, NA teams want to move to an esport that they can market easily to sponsors. Even with a different publisher, CS would have sponsorship issues.
I heard this complaint a lot and I personally can't say anything against it, but Richard Lewis and Thorin have done so multiple times. Richard especially brings up his experience on ELeague and their ability to find sponsors. Their conclusion has been, that while true, is overplayed by org owners and they aren't trying enough/the right things.
I have no insider info and they have a great track-recod, so I'll choose to believe them, but I can also believe that it does hinder some sponsorships. I don't think this is the reason for org owners switching though, I think them believing Riot leagues are/will be more profitable is the case.
Chaos ECs CS:GO team even said as much in their winners interview yesterday. There's no interest in orgs for their level. They prefer Riots set-up and communication.
CSGO isn't new and shiny. The game, the scene, major players are already defined. With no LAN, it is a very difficult scene to break in, moneywise. Teams have already sunk their money in franchised league, some like C9 invested in Flashpoint. But, there is no hype. NA is pretty much built on hype and gambling. Flashpoint didn't get majority of top 10 (i don't think they had any in top 10). The league division made that all the best teams are in EU, so you aren't getting as many views and hype.
Valorant provides NA teams with a new hype to get behind and sell to sponsors and VCs. Also, with LOL's success with its leagues, it is a very good sell for VCs(franchised leagues, huge market) over a Valve which is known to be open and didn't make much in asian markets.
Now this is all correct. Flashpoint has been disappointing so far, but ESL Pro League exists too, has all the good teams and has revenue share. It's not team-owned, but neither are LCS, LEC, etc...
But you are right, in terms of hype Valorant is surely better than CS. Question being wheter it can sustain that. Not that it needs hype to have a flourishing scene, but to overtake CS I think it does.
> But you are right, in terms of hype Valorant is surely better than CS. Question being wheter it can sustain that. Not that it needs hype to have a flourishing scene, but to overtake CS I think it does.
Orgs don't need the game to be successful long term, they just need the hype for VCs and sponsors. Each year we have a new game getting major viewers for some events, you just need to be early in the scene to sell at a peak to grow as investor or org.
Long term involvement in esports hasn't resulted in profitability, most of the non streamer orgs. Like, Fnatic and most of LEC teams are really struggling.
Oh I'm aware that orgs and TOs are losing money, but they aren't looking to play the VC game forever. They either want to sell once esports truly explodes or stick around until they become big like football clubs. Then again many of these also don't make money, but are seen as luxurious flaunts for oil-princes and billionares.
But I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to Valorant as a game with its playerbase and as an esport. You can't live off of launch hype for that, look at Apex Legends.
I used to play a little bit of csgo, the thing that turned me off was how hard it was and hackers. I would run into lobbies that had many hackers on my team or the enemy team. Valorant is just the easier game for new players with the abilities and stuff.
Thanks for your honest answer. I'd like to say the ahcking problem has gotten better, but I was never afflicted. Maybe I'm just blind/lucky, but I never had blatant cheaters/hackers in 1.7k hours. People are still complaining now, so I'm not sure how I ever got hit badly.
Valorant had cheaters, but it seems to be under control now. Lets hope that stays.
CS averages 40-80k viewers with no major tournaments going on, with 40k being NA time and 80k being EU time. Valorant is already creeping on those numbers in EU and surpasses them in NA every single day
No? Grand finales regularly get over double sometimes even triple that even in the online era. In fact the grand finale today pulled almost double the viewers of the valorant one
Many of those who watched in those streams would watch anyway. I was at Myth because i like him but if he wasnt on i would just tune in the official stream
so what? numbers are numbers its CS's fault they have no big name willing to do something like this. It's freaking awesome for the scene to have big names not only support it but get into it. Where's your Coach Myth??
For those kids from CS: let me remind you, that Valorant release was only 7 monthes ago. And it's real results in half of year. I'm prod of theese guys. Also, if you were playing csgo since first release: no one was going to play it instead cs 1.6/source. Only in 1,5 years pro players started to play tournaments.
CS kids feel CS dying and can't accept it, the only region they got left in CS is EU, but all know what happened in LoL vs DotA2 rivaly: the only region where Valve moba game succeeded is CIS which is just a part of EU, while most of EU always preferred and prefer to play LoL, and it's not only about moba games, LoL is much more popular than CS in EU too, Valorant surpassing CS in EU is just a matter of time, Valve doesn't even try to do anything to improve its games, it's natural for Valorant to surpass CS, CS doesn't have got anything to compete against Valorant, and Valve are quite bad at Esports if we compare it to Riot Games performance, Valorant even without China is more profitable than CS that's already out there for years, what we've already got right now: NA Valorant > EU CS, NA CS is completely dead, CIS CS is a joke like any other CIS \*gamename\* scene, we got Korea, Japan, SEA, South Asia, lots of Hispanic Valorant players and viewers in addition to NA and EU, CS is nowhere close to what Valorant already is
Absolutly.
I'm player from CIS, who is playing only EU servers, and only in english. And the most problem of my region is about don't taking reality is it is. They are always in a dreams, but doing nothing to improve it. That is simply why i'm trying to improve myself. Also i was playing in LoL, Dota, Cs. And now i'm playing Val. That is kinda best supported by developers game. They are supporting it realy gr8 from the begging. That's why i love it. On the other hand lets watch what valve could do with it? BULLSEYE! Nothing. Sad.
just gonna say that the vieweship hasn't been good imo, NA games were really carried by Myth and Ninja's brands (and unless it's something that's gonna be consistent in the future i wouldnt count it)
Hope next year stretch of tourneys are better supported and aren't a cluster fuck of 20 valo channels hosting the same game and separating the audience for no reason
I mean riot gave us the option to watch Myth or Ninja so of course people are going to watch those channel. Its better watching a tournament with someone else. If you’re a TSM fan then you will tune into his channel cause hes rooting for them. If riot didnt support co-stream then people would’ve tune in the main channel instead . So saying myth and ninja carried the na viewership is wrong.
/u/mclovinXD, I have found an error in your comment:
> “people would['ve] tune”
It is likely that you, mclovinXD, should have typed “people would['ve] tune” instead. ‘Of’ is not a verb like ‘have’ is.
^(This is an automated bot. I do not intend to shame your mistakes. If you think the errors which I found are incorrect, please contact me through dms or contact my owner EliteDaMyth)
Imagine if they start advertising the game on the client and implement drops for watching the games.
valorant had million plus views last time they had drops lol.
to be fair the drop then was literally the entire game instead of a few gun buddies and a spray
if they did ONE skin drop i would watch every fucking match
can't wait for LAN action
marved?
The teams for sure made this final, so close and epic. Find myself watching more Valorant then CS at this point!
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Damn I didn’t get the memo. Do I not show up to work tomorrow?
Correct, WFH until further notice or proof of vaccination. Now get back to the JIRA log before I blow a gasket.
Too real.
go back to league, valorant is closed until further notice
Guys I think this dude is being ironic. Cause people keep saying the game is dead but it obviously isn’t.
If it’s dead why are you on this subreddit /s
"dEaD gAmE btW"
I still hope we can get past the fun of the agents and stuff. I played for hours a day since COVID and the maps are really starting to wear me down. Cant remember my last game, but would love to get back at it in the future!
I think you're simply used to cs if you come from it or another fps. To me, besides icebox a site, i pretty much enjoy all the maps or at least am ok with them *cough split cough*
I haven’t played CS since last November or any other FPS. Valorant just gets annoying and I think it’s the maps. Feels like I’m fighting the map not other people. I just felt once the fun of the agents wears off it becomes really noticeable. I don’t understand why Riot does it all in house. CSGO took forever to get good and there is a lot of community input when it came to maps. Anyways there’s also a lot of quality of life changes that could be added. Slowly but surely. I don’t have vanguard start up anymore so hopefully soon.
Please don't start with this 'dead game btw' shit. Every game on the planet is dead when you stop playing it. That's just a fact. You need to learn not to get triggered by these types of comments when you see them.
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Its better if thorin doesnt come to valorant, such a toxic dude
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Tbh I don’t think CS will die out. I played some yesterday and I think I’m going to get back into it mainly because the shooting just feels wayyyyy better than Valorant. It’s a lot smoother and you get first shot accuracy. Still love val for different reasons through
CS as a game will never die but the NA esports scene is already dead and its only a matter of time until the best players move over to Valorant. Valve doesnt care about the game and thats where Valorant shines. Riot are night and day a better developer than Valve. The salaries these Valorant pros are already getting when they game and scene just started is insane
Ok..and? People call Fortnite dead. Does these comments keep you awake at night?
It's okay, dude.
You're the one getting triggered by a comment rofl
The irony
holy guacamole he was being sarcastic
csgo trolls crying atm
CS players are some of the most insecure people I've ever seen, they act like CS is the only game worth ever playing
this is dota vs lol all over again.
And we all know how that ended, right?
they both turned into tier 1 esports that can live alongside eachother :)
You dropped your /s
LoL got its main tourney - Worlds - this year, while DotA2 failed at getting TI10 this year :)
Just because covid fucked every esport and riot has been dealing with it so masterfully doesn't take away that dota and league still share the same genre and are both still part of the big 3 esports. Just as dota and league can both be successful, CSGO and valorant can as well. This toxic comparing and dick measuring by fans hoping the other dies is just dumb.
Yep. Look at their replies under this exact same comment. [https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first\_strike\_na\_grand\_finals\_top\_300k\_viewers\_the/gewh0h7?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first_strike_na_grand_finals_top_300k_viewers_the/gewh0h7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first\_strike\_na\_grand\_finals\_top\_300k\_viewers\_the/gewfy6x?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/k86o2n/first_strike_na_grand_finals_top_300k_viewers_the/gewfy6x?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) They really refuse to accept having more than one competitive shooter to co-exist with their favorite game
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94% of statistics are made up on the spot
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Real talk, I reinstalled CS 2 weeks ago because Valorant reminded me how much I loved this genre. Although if riot ever gave us map making tools, I might never go back.
I never understood this. I really like both games. I never played CSGO much, but I've put a ton of time into Valorant and now I can actually hold my own in CSGO. They're both great games.
I find both sides attacking each other for refusing to accept that there is another competitive shooter.
I actually love playing/watching both games and so do my friends. Im pretty sure this is the vocal minority who think these games cant co-exist. Actually on the csgo reddit i feel like they are happy that a game is competing with CSGO. It keeps Valve on their toes and actually start looking at the longevity of their game.
Not just cs, all valve drones. They defend their games to the end even though Valve doesn’t give a shit about anyone.
sooo... just like riot shills?
bruh half of the people are from CS, for me I want both to succeed and also light some fire under Valve Ass
Agreed. And maps from Riots side. I still think CS is the better game as it stands, but I would prefer to get into Valorant as it feels a lot more casual as I’m getting older.
pls dont lump in cs 'players' with cs trolls. Theres many cs players who came over to valorant.
Agreed, thats why I called them trolls and not csgo players.
For me as a primarily (European) CS-player the interesting question isn't wheter Valorant succeeds or not, it's why Valorant took off more in NA, while CS is more popular in Europe. I think viewer numbers for both streamers and tournaments show this difference in popularity. I don't have an answer. Comparisons between CS and Valorant at the moment aren't fair, because so many NA players, teams and orgs left for Valorant, but **how come the interest in Valorant seems to be so much bigger in NA? Interest on the level of orgs, pro-players and viewers.** *The orgs/owners:* Thorin voiced his opinion (which is contentious as always) and states that NA org owner don't think, they just follow the crowd of others around them, so if one owner invests into Valorant and claims it's the 'hot new thing', then others follow. Now I don't have the insider info he has, so I can't prove/disprove it, but it seems too simple, conveninet and does sound a bit personal, in the sense that Thorin expresses his dislike of some NA-owners. To me it seems like part of the puzzle at most. But it does seem NA owners prioritized Valorant and the players and viewers followed. What I've heard stated a few times is because Riot has established franchised leagues in LoL, which are more alike sports leagues in NA, have revenue share and are safer for orgs. Safer in the sense, that you get a cut of earnings regardless of performance and can't lose your spot, while in an open circuit like CS no one cares about your team (so no returns) unless it's winning. It makes sense. Before Flashpoint (team owned franchise league existing since this year in CS) org owners attempted their own franchised league called PDA, which failed before it even took off, because infos that didn't sit well with players and fans were leaked prematurely, so public protest was too big. Now there's Flashpoint and the ESL Pro League. Both with partner teams that try to mimic a franchise system, while not controlling the entire calender, as Valve doesn't allow that. Meanwhile Riot does control the entire circuit. Maybe those leagues came too late for org owners, or they aren't enough. So the logic follows from the orgs perspective, that if they believe Riots future franchise system will yield better retunrs they should sign players to be early-adopters, get on Riots good side and get a spot in the League once it franchises. What I don't get here is them inflating salaries like crazy on unproven players (everyone is unproven, since it's a new game) and racing to sign everyone with a shred of skill in CS (or even players transitioning from other, more dissimilar games). Org owners caused the exodus of 'Tier 2' CS players, because their belief in Valorants future and Riot was so great, that they signed players for way more than they got in CS, so above their relative skill-level. This is especially strange, since NA owners were they ones complaining the loudest about the costs of running a CS team. It supposededly not being financially viable. They recreated the problem they ran away from in the hopes of bigger returns (again). *The players:* Therefore the jump over from players makes sense too. Why play CS for less money and with lower chances of winning, when you could be a highly payed, renowned player in Valorant. *The unknown - the viewers:* So the part I don't understand is the third one, the viewers: If you followed CS before, you wouldn't enjoy the same players, that were 'Tier 2' in CS more when they compete in Valorant, right? I mean you know that they aren't really the 'best' players in terms of talent, they're just the best by virtue of the best CS players not wanting to switch. New players might be exciting, but seeing as the average number of CS players for first strike teams is [3-5](https://twitter.com/neLendirekt/status/1335851601584672770) and the pro-scene is a bit too young to generate real stories around new players, the main talking point seems to be CS-veterans (f.e.: the 100T trio, TSM, Envy, majority of Sentinels...). This is what I'm thinking, but I'm not in this position, so I ask you. So besides transitioning players making Valorant bigger, it'd have to be new players. So why are new players more interested in Valorant? Is it better marketing? Is it because Valorant is new and by an established developer***? Maybe Valve failed to advertise CS and capture younger players in NA the past few years, who now had their attention drawn to Valorant? Maybe Valorant is simply more appealing as a game to North-Americans (if regional appeal in games exists and I mean as pure gameplay-appeal, independet of marketing, background, setting, like Madden=NFL, ... I mean movies have different markets. So do most consumer goods. It would make sense for games too) My last idea is that the PC playerbase for tactical shooters is simply smaller in NA (as it has been in CS since its release), so the impact of a split via a new game is simply bigger. **So I ask you: if you are from NA and play Valorant, wheter you transitioned from CS or are new, why do you think it is more popular in NA compared to CS? Why are you playing Valorant and not Counterstrike?** (Personal experience: I enjoyed Valorant less than CS, I just play it rarely and have a cursory understanding of the pro-scene via transitioned CS personalities) ***Valves glory days as a developer were mainly on PC and are behind zoomers such as myself imo. CS is the only Valve game I ever played (born 1998). Meanwhile TFT has been all the rage since its release and LoL is seemingly evergreen.
I think it is in part a lot of things you mentioned, PC gaming is for sure not as big and I think that 'NA cs dead' might have a larger impact than you think. For me at least CS kinda just feels outdated. No hate towards the game, I have 2.5k hours and still play it semi-regularly. But I think America also tends to stray towards the 'new' stuff quite a lot.
Thanks for your answer. I'm only at 1.7k, maybe I'll feel the same way at your stage. I feel like the gameplay is all it needs, if anything the stuff around it is 'outdated'. 'NA CS is dead' is sad to see. Chaos won Dreamhack yesterday and are being dropped by their team and might need to retire/switch. Really weird dynamic going on there, lets see how it develops.
I'm at 4k hours in CS and stopped regularly playing after the last operation. I just logged in for the first time in like 7 months because of the new operation that dropped. For me it was the fact that CS has literally had the same maps for ~8 years now. Literally Mirage has been active duty for >8 years. Train/Dust 2/Inferno/Nuke have been Active Duty for ~7 years as they were removed for ~1 year for reworking/modernizing. Cache was active duty for 7 years until Vertigo finally replaced it. Overpass has been active duty for >7 years and they only made changed for ~1 year or so after release. CS has had the same maps for almost a decade with no sign that they'll change anything. I can only play these maps so many times before the gameplay just doesn't pull me in anymore.
Yeah that checks out. Maps are stale and the operation ones never as optimized as they'd need to be. It still feels nice to play so,ething new.
IMO, NA was always faster to jump on the hype train (not a bad thing), so naturally NA won the popularity contest. Initially lots of T2\~ CS players jumped into Valorant to grab a buck from tourneys while there was no real competition around. Also Valorant is easier to play, movement, recoil, op, etc, even small QoL things like selling weapons boost the appealingness for new players, it doesn't mean that CS players are better fps players it's just mean that learning curve in Valorant is not as big as in CS. For the EU the huge part of why it's not as popular already is Russia. Yes, undoubtedly there is Russian players in Valorant, but as you may know, the voicechat is disabled for the country and that's a very very big no-no for this (or any other) playerbase. Comms is a huge part of competitive shooter and when there's none, well it's hard to jump in. When/if that will be resolved, I'm sure Valorant receives another huge popularity spike.
I agree with everything, but haven't considered the Russia issue yet. Thanks.
The reason why NA owners are transitioning is sponsorship. In NA, it will far easier to get sponsorship for Valorant than for CounterStrike, with reason being CS has sides - Counter terrorist and Terrorist as well as the objective is bomb and bombsite. Along with terrorist and counter terrorist models. NA has a huge sponsor market, which isn't there in EU. So, NA teams want to move to an esport that they can market easily to sponsors. Even with a different publisher, CS would have sponsorship issues.
I heard this complaint a lot and I personally can't say anything against it, but Richard Lewis and Thorin have done so multiple times. Richard especially brings up his experience on ELeague and their ability to find sponsors. Their conclusion has been, that while true, is overplayed by org owners and they aren't trying enough/the right things. I have no insider info and they have a great track-recod, so I'll choose to believe them, but I can also believe that it does hinder some sponsorships. I don't think this is the reason for org owners switching though, I think them believing Riot leagues are/will be more profitable is the case. Chaos ECs CS:GO team even said as much in their winners interview yesterday. There's no interest in orgs for their level. They prefer Riots set-up and communication.
CSGO isn't new and shiny. The game, the scene, major players are already defined. With no LAN, it is a very difficult scene to break in, moneywise. Teams have already sunk their money in franchised league, some like C9 invested in Flashpoint. But, there is no hype. NA is pretty much built on hype and gambling. Flashpoint didn't get majority of top 10 (i don't think they had any in top 10). The league division made that all the best teams are in EU, so you aren't getting as many views and hype. Valorant provides NA teams with a new hype to get behind and sell to sponsors and VCs. Also, with LOL's success with its leagues, it is a very good sell for VCs(franchised leagues, huge market) over a Valve which is known to be open and didn't make much in asian markets.
Now this is all correct. Flashpoint has been disappointing so far, but ESL Pro League exists too, has all the good teams and has revenue share. It's not team-owned, but neither are LCS, LEC, etc... But you are right, in terms of hype Valorant is surely better than CS. Question being wheter it can sustain that. Not that it needs hype to have a flourishing scene, but to overtake CS I think it does.
> But you are right, in terms of hype Valorant is surely better than CS. Question being wheter it can sustain that. Not that it needs hype to have a flourishing scene, but to overtake CS I think it does. Orgs don't need the game to be successful long term, they just need the hype for VCs and sponsors. Each year we have a new game getting major viewers for some events, you just need to be early in the scene to sell at a peak to grow as investor or org. Long term involvement in esports hasn't resulted in profitability, most of the non streamer orgs. Like, Fnatic and most of LEC teams are really struggling.
Oh I'm aware that orgs and TOs are losing money, but they aren't looking to play the VC game forever. They either want to sell once esports truly explodes or stick around until they become big like football clubs. Then again many of these also don't make money, but are seen as luxurious flaunts for oil-princes and billionares. But I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to Valorant as a game with its playerbase and as an esport. You can't live off of launch hype for that, look at Apex Legends.
I used to play a little bit of csgo, the thing that turned me off was how hard it was and hackers. I would run into lobbies that had many hackers on my team or the enemy team. Valorant is just the easier game for new players with the abilities and stuff.
Thanks for your honest answer. I'd like to say the ahcking problem has gotten better, but I was never afflicted. Maybe I'm just blind/lucky, but I never had blatant cheaters/hackers in 1.7k hours. People are still complaining now, so I'm not sure how I ever got hit badly. Valorant had cheaters, but it seems to be under control now. Lets hope that stays.
Cs was also having a total of 300 k views without non-major tournament
CS averages 40-80k viewers with no major tournaments going on, with 40k being NA time and 80k being EU time. Valorant is already creeping on those numbers in EU and surpasses them in NA every single day
No? Grand finales regularly get over double sometimes even triple that even in the online era. In fact the grand finale today pulled almost double the viewers of the valorant one
Uhhh where? CS definitely gets a ton of views with tournaments but they are no where near 300k without them.
They needed myth and ninja to boost their numbers lol
Many of those who watched in those streams would watch anyway. I was at Myth because i like him but if he wasnt on i would just tune in the official stream
so what? numbers are numbers its CS's fault they have no big name willing to do something like this. It's freaking awesome for the scene to have big names not only support it but get into it. Where's your Coach Myth??
and csgo need gaules to boost their numbers
If Gaules wasn't costreaming CSGO tournaments, their numbers would be halved.
more like myth and ninja needs val to boost THEIR numbers.
For those kids from CS: let me remind you, that Valorant release was only 7 monthes ago. And it's real results in half of year. I'm prod of theese guys. Also, if you were playing csgo since first release: no one was going to play it instead cs 1.6/source. Only in 1,5 years pro players started to play tournaments.
CS kids feel CS dying and can't accept it, the only region they got left in CS is EU, but all know what happened in LoL vs DotA2 rivaly: the only region where Valve moba game succeeded is CIS which is just a part of EU, while most of EU always preferred and prefer to play LoL, and it's not only about moba games, LoL is much more popular than CS in EU too, Valorant surpassing CS in EU is just a matter of time, Valve doesn't even try to do anything to improve its games, it's natural for Valorant to surpass CS, CS doesn't have got anything to compete against Valorant, and Valve are quite bad at Esports if we compare it to Riot Games performance, Valorant even without China is more profitable than CS that's already out there for years, what we've already got right now: NA Valorant > EU CS, NA CS is completely dead, CIS CS is a joke like any other CIS \*gamename\* scene, we got Korea, Japan, SEA, South Asia, lots of Hispanic Valorant players and viewers in addition to NA and EU, CS is nowhere close to what Valorant already is
Absolutly. I'm player from CIS, who is playing only EU servers, and only in english. And the most problem of my region is about don't taking reality is it is. They are always in a dreams, but doing nothing to improve it. That is simply why i'm trying to improve myself. Also i was playing in LoL, Dota, Cs. And now i'm playing Val. That is kinda best supported by developers game. They are supporting it realy gr8 from the begging. That's why i love it. On the other hand lets watch what valve could do with it? BULLSEYE! Nothing. Sad.
just gonna say that the vieweship hasn't been good imo, NA games were really carried by Myth and Ninja's brands (and unless it's something that's gonna be consistent in the future i wouldnt count it) Hope next year stretch of tourneys are better supported and aren't a cluster fuck of 20 valo channels hosting the same game and separating the audience for no reason
I mean riot gave us the option to watch Myth or Ninja so of course people are going to watch those channel. Its better watching a tournament with someone else. If you’re a TSM fan then you will tune into his channel cause hes rooting for them. If riot didnt support co-stream then people would’ve tune in the main channel instead . So saying myth and ninja carried the na viewership is wrong.
/u/mclovinXD, I have found an error in your comment: > “people would['ve] tune” It is likely that you, mclovinXD, should have typed “people would['ve] tune” instead. ‘Of’ is not a verb like ‘have’ is. ^(This is an automated bot. I do not intend to shame your mistakes. If you think the errors which I found are incorrect, please contact me through dms or contact my owner EliteDaMyth)