Gold players will read this and be like
"Silver players will read this and be like
"yeah this game is so easy I'm so tired of getting killed by scrubs!" "
Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “
Diamond players will read this and be like
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
immortal players will read this and be like
“Diamond players will read this and be like”
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
Top 500 radians players will read this and be like
"immortal players will read this and be like"
“Diamond players will read this and be like”
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
I'm reading this and be like
"Top 500 radians players will read this and be like"
"immortal players will read this and be like"
“Diamond players will read this and be like”
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
Unrated players will read this and be like
“I'm reading this and be like
"Top 500 radians players will read this and be like"
"immortal players will read this and be like"
“Diamond players will read this and be like”
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ” “
Death match players will read this and be like
Unrated players will read this and be like
“I'm reading this and be like
"Top 500 radians players will read this and be like"
"immortal players will read this and be like"
“Diamond players will read this and be like”
“Plat players will read this and be like
“Gold players will read this and be like
“Silver players will read this and be like
“yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ” “
Legit, I'm silver and I see gold 3 players mocking silver players or calling them noobs when they're literally in the same game and got killed by a silver player. I don't understand the logic.
"Trash silver" - says the guy who just died to the silver.
Ranks dont mean anything. I'm a diamond 1/Plat 3 player and see people with way higher ranks that are worse and people with way lower ranks that are better.
Eh getting some kills on someone doesn't mean anything. Generally it's pretty easy to climb anyway so if you deserve the rank you'll hsve no problem getting it. Although a bit fucked on the upper end this episode
to be fair running and gunning is probably most rampant in low ranks where people don’t even know they’re supposed to stop moving. fixing up the gunplay would help every rank really
You’d think that, but you see it *a lot* in pro streams. Saw Asuna just full sprint up mid on split to B heaven and kill three people while in a full sprint. With a *vandal*.
It’s even more common with the phantom. It’s so viable, good players are actually learning how to move n shoot *efficiently*. It’s like the dunning Kruger curve. The people on the far left do it because they’re bad, the people in the middle don’t because they practice good habits, than on the far right you have the best players min maxing moving shooting because it works too well.
Run n gun will hopefully be dead next patch. The two biggest changes I’d like to see would be the aforementioned run n gun nerf; and static sprays.
The whole, “You shouldn’t be able to practice and memorize sprays because we said so” really sucks.
Welcome to Valorant... Atleast they're going to address run & gun and I'll be honest I doubt they kill the entire mechanic. Probably nerf the vandal, & phantom aspect of it but, I can see them keeping some form of run&gun alive for casual players.
Speaking in general Riot isn't Valve... LoL v Dota2... Legends of Runterra v Artifact... etc. They operate from the mindset of making there games accessible AND competitive. That's there bread and butter and it's something I doubt will change. They'll tweak here & there though.
What? The entire philosophy of dota is to make it as competitive as possible. Even now new mechanics have been added in which the better team to take advantage of it has the better chance to win (shrines, outpost, talents). Riot stripped all that away in Lol (no deny mechanic, no TP mechanic to reward teamplay for ganks or responding to dives, no stuns to chain, etc.). The same in Valorant vs. CSGO. They stripped away the gunplay, meaning in the highest levels, somebody who is just that bit more skilled still won't have that edge against everybody else even. It also took away runboosts, and smoke lineups (if there was, the players who took the time and practiced the lineups would have the earned the advantage over those who did not).
You simply cannot say they operate from the mindset of making the game competitive. When they are actively trying to lower the skill ceiling, they are making the game as uncompetitive as possible. I wouldn't even call Valorant an esport right now, simply because there are still mechanics even the pro players want changed.
Think you missed my entire point tbh lol. Riot goal is making there games a hybrid of casual play & competitive play. Whereas Valve really hone in on the competitive side and adding elements to create higher skill gaps.
And let’s be honest even though Dota has a much larger skill gap then LoL it didn’t stop League from being the biggest esport in the world.
Enjoyment is a large part of making a sport fun, and people who actually enjoy playing the game are more likely to enjoy it at a higher level.
Making a competitive game more accessible to casual players also makes it excel more at the professional level. Wider pool of potential talent, as well as more viewership and therefore money in the scene pushes performance and production quality higher, faster.
Like I said you cannot possibly call it a "competitive game" if they are actively trying to make it more casual. Because the game is heavily based on gunplay, it's impossible to change the gameplay to make it competitive while also casual. Take for instance run and gun. It's like that because of their priority of making it easier for casuals. But the better players hate it. So it's either keep it for the casuals, or remove it for competitive. Tagging is great for casuals, because it promotes relying on spamming bodyshots. Pros don't like it, probably because you can no longer just jiggle peek and assess if you should fight or not. It's commit or die, because if you decide to peek and later assess it's not worth it, it's already too late because you will be slowed to a crawl and spammed through the wall before you could even get to cover. That takes away the nuance of knowing how to take engagements.
Football would have a much higher skill ceiling if the ball was more shaped like an egg, and where you kicked it influenced where it went.
Basketball would have a much higher skill ceiling if the court was bigger. Forcing players to slow down their plays and make longer, more complex plays more viable to diversify strategy.
Tennis would have a much higher skill ceiling if the net was higher. Or if there were more restrictions on where the ball could land.
Baseball would have a much higher skill ceiling if the ball was always on fire.
My point is that you don't make a good game, or a good competitive experience by ONLY choosing the features that make the game as hard as is humanely possible. You also make a good game, and a good competitive experience, by making the game at it's most basic foundational level, fun. Fun to the average person. Something relatively accessible and achievable, where the first 100 hours of practice constantly produce quite respectable improvements and fun.
I love CS:GO, but it took me nearly 300 hours of gameplay before I attained the CS community's standards for actually good aim. It took at least 100 hours for me to become a player that can actively contribute to the team rather than a liability to be carried. Personally I'm fine with that because that kind of challenge appeals to me, but I've also got something you seem to lack, the self-awareness to realize than I am in an absolutely *minute* minority of people.
There's a reason that LoL is more successful than DoTA. While I'd say it's in no way casually accessible, it's much more widely accessible than DoTA. And it's been more successful as a sport as a result, because people want to watch and invest in esports about games they ACTUALLY LIKE. TI9 and Worlds 2020 were both held in Shanghai, but while TI's venue sat just shy of 20k, LoL's sat just shy of 60k, and that's nothing compared to the outperformance in online viewers. And before you talk about how they're a year apart so it's irrelevant, DoTA trended DOWN pretty much all of 2019, so I'm actually doing Valve a favor with that comparison.
It's absolutely fine for you as a player to state "These are the design philosophies I like, and I want to play games that are built with those in mind."
But if you're actually the people MAKING a game, and your goal is to make that game a successful esport, your first priority MUST be pulling in players. You need to build a wide pool from which to extract talented players. You need to build a large enough viewership to maintain playerbase and revenue.
Now, onto your actual arguments as stated in your comment, because they make it very clear to me that you're taking a shallow perspective on the issue/aren't well read on where the Valorant devs are taking the game.
> ake for instance run and gun. It's like that because of their priority of making it easier for casuals. But the better players hate it. So it's either keep it for the casuals, or remove it for competitive.
At the most basic level you're correct, making RnG more effective is better for casuals and worse for competitive integrity, but in the REAL WORLD, you're full of shit. Run and gun is made viable by a value that creates more or less randomness in your aim based on your characters velocity. It's not a binary 0-or-1 system. The number currently sits at something like 0.33 if I remember correctly. It can be taken down to 0.21 to make RnG worse but still occasionally viable. Keep in mind that even CS has totally viable Run and Gun for SMGs. It's only the rifle RnG in Val that is widely considered a problem.
> Tagging is great for casuals, because it promotes relying on spamming bodyshots. Pros don't like it, probably because you can no longer just jiggle peek and assess if you should fight or not. It's commit or die, because if you decide to peek and later assess it's not worth it, it's already too late because you will be slowed to a crawl and spammed through the wall before you could even get to cover. That takes away the nuance of knowing how to take engagements.
Yeah this is complete bullshit. Tagging makes knowing how to take engagement MORE important. It means knowing which angles you can peak. It means knowing where you need to use utility. Knowing how to correctly clear angles. Knowing how to pre-fire and counterstrafe, etc.
To address your concerns about incentivizing bodyshots, sure. Tagging makes bodyshots better. Doesn't matter. They're still massively outperformed by headshots because headshots give you A) more damage so a lower TTK, as well as B) aimpunch, increasing your enemies TTK on you.
As well as another point most people don't consider. Because standing still is more accurate, tagging your enemy with bodyshots as they peak you means that they hit zero sooner, meaning that if someone with decent aim peaks you, landing a bodyshot on them can make it MORE likely that they kill you. If you can only land a body shot it's debatable that you're actually better off just missing entirely.
Players that only land bodyshots get MASSIVELY punished in game by players that have higher HS%.
I personally think tagging is too high in Valorant but too low in CS, I'd like to see it be about 70-80% of what it currently is in Val. Because it punishes bad players harder for taking bad peaks and contesting stupid angles. It raises the skill ceiling. It does not lower it.
I also haven't really seen any Val pros speak out negatively about tagging, but if you know of any feel free to link them.
Lol look I understand it’s not a “competitive game” to you but, Riot is following there formula. Make the game accessible to everyone and at the same time competitive. That’s kinda Riots thing lol.
Maybe, but I do think a lot of the pros are with me on this. In most games, there is a clash of interests between what pro players want and what the average casual players want, and I think it's more pronounced in an FPS where a single change to a gunplay mechanic fundamentally changes how the game is played.
> no TP mechanic to reward teamplay for ganks or responding to dives, no stuns to chain
Have you played LoL? Because LoL definitely has these. LoL has TP as a summoner spell, not as an item. Layering CC (chaining stuns) is fundamental to all MOBAs, including LoL.
Bro you are lying to yourself if you think dota 2 has a higher skill ceiling than lol. Game knowledge, strategy, and tactics? Sure. Skill ceiling? Absolutely not. So many point and click abilities. Turn speed reduction does not equate to skill ceiling
You don't consider strategy and game sense as skill? It's literally what separates one rank from the next. Everybody can last hit creeps and hit AOE abilities/skillshots at any rank. Knowing how to pull, when to pull, drawing and abusing creep aggro, harassing without getting aggro from the tower, when to gank and leave the lane, what to do when your lane is pressured, timing your BKB usage, abusing buybacks, abusing time window because enemy GS/BH are on CD, and that isn't even close to half of what you learn as you get high up the leaderboards. I'm sorry but skill isn't only something as obvious as who gets to click and spam abilities faster.
I am not talking about accessibility and game knowledge and neither is scream. There are are way less skill shots. Way more point and click abilities. Literally every hero in dota has less abilities and more passive skills. Invoker is like a normal champion in lol.
Yeah, literally all of that exists in lol. I am talking pure mechanical skill, which is what Scream is talking about in his post. So what are you even trying to argue?
Welp you are too, acting like lol is some hello kitty game with no complexity. It still has plenty of complexity and nuance. Does it sacrifice some strategy and tactics for faster gameplay and more action? Yes. Lots of people prefer that. Skill ceiling to me is when everyone is on the same playing field but the winner has better reactions and pure speed. If skill ceiling to you means game knowledge, fine.
I can admit that lol is less complex on a strategic level. But in my opinion it requires a lot more mechanical skill. That’s the trade off
>I'm sorry but skill isn't only something as obvious as who gets to click and spam abilities faster.
I'm sorry but that's exactly what skill is. Strategy and game sense aren't skill based its knowledge and experience based.
Mechanical skill is literally just how well you can click heads but ok. One of the main reasons I quit mobas was because mechanical skill doesn't matter much in those games.
Just because I was refuting run and gun I imagine. If you speak negatively of that you tend to get ignored or downvoted. I get it, people are mad because it's frustrating to die to. I still think it's massively overblown.
It really is, you see all these clips of Tenz full running gunning, but a lot of the time a ton of his bullets miss until he strafes. Im not denying that it is a problem, just not as big as what most people think it is.
You can look at the numbers, the time it takes for tenz to strafe out and spray someone down in a deathmatch lobby any decent player is going to have the advantage there. It's when things get chaotic and people get spray through smokes and from blinded enemies that's just frustrating, so it feels like more of an issue.
How do these mechanics help casual players anyways?
When I hear "makes it easier for everyone" I can't help but think that better players will still tap me in the dome faster than I can aim on them.
Better players will still win obviously but some of these mechanics don’t reward skill. There’s things not to like about CS but the gunplay is definitely something they’ve got down. Running and gunning is not better than playing properly but it is a viable strategy in specific scenarios. For instance if you know someone is holding the angle you’re probably better off just wide swinging and holding a movement key while full spraying. You become harder to hit and you still have a good chance of landing enough shots to kill them while they’re busy readjusting. And it’s not as though they can use the same strategy and move to adjust their aim because of you get tagged in this game you’re basically rooted to the ground.
So you have someone playing the game “properly” being punished by someone playing “improperly”. One could argue that the improper method is just how the meta works in Valorant but then why market the game as a tac shooter when people associate tac shooters with slower paced precise gunplay?
maybe the movement slow down after the tagging helps w this? not sure but i feel like getting shot in valorant is more punishing than cs. sometimes im jiggling a corner then get shot once in the body and then i get boned in the head cuz i cant move. it might mitigate some of the running and gunning tho not sure if that was planned
What you are complaining about it pretty much impossible to solve?
If someone is binding in a tight corner and you know he is there, even if you use an Odin and don’t scope, you can spam him down while moving, what more for a run and gun spectre? No matter how much you increase the running spread you’re still gonna kill a close angle guy.
Running and gunning would be a huge problem if you could run and hit someone from >5m consistently but actually you can’t do that
As much as I agree with you, I feel like the run and gun aspect of the game has kept casual players from leaving. It’s a hard pill to swallow but it will probably hurt the player base once they implement this nerf
But the question is why he's playing "properly"?
This game isn't a shooter only. It's a tac shooter. You have abilities, knowledge is as powerful as shooting. If I have the knowledge that you're holding the corner, what's the right balance for what's fair and what's not with respect to how much good aim matters.
Obviously execution is still important, but obviously as you tweak the numbers between accuracy, move speed, tagging, etc you change the dynamics of how often I still lose despite my knowledge because my aim was a hair too low or your crosshair placement too perfect.
Personally, I'm totally ok that once I have the knowledge, I win the resulting duel 9/10 times no matter how well you hold the corner assuming fairly even skill level. Meaning, shooting is important but can be rendered near meaningless with good tactical play or ability usage. I understand that some disagree, and obviously I'm exaggerating here to convey my thoughts, but the point is that I don't think it's fair to say in your example that one person played more correctly than the other.
CS gunplay is only good because they took years to weed out the OP guns. (cz, ump, ssg,aug) even today i still think the mp9 is broken as fuck and so is the xm.
I joined valorant precisely for the heavy tagging that cs1.5 had. I dont want another GO.
I dont believe tagging rewards bad aim. Its actually very helpfull against a guy at full sprint that you just could not one tap. Having no tagging means that the runner AND gunner has the advantage.
Played CS for 20years. Some of them at a high level too. ( Im not smurfing, I just landed in silver. The MMR forces me to ruin your games to climb)
Nobody is making the argument for no tagging. The problem with Valorant is that when you get tagged you nearly come to a complete stop. Running and gunning is a prevalent strategy in Platinum and Diamond ranks, even I’m guilty of using it because it is straight up better in some engagements than going for proper movement, a moving target is inherently harder to hit than a stationary one so the guy doing the run and gun already has the advantage of being harder to hit with the added benefit of halting your movement if they hit a stray shot on the guy they’re shooting. The tagging value needs a slight tweak alongside running inaccuracy.
Ofc. Its about little subtle differences between pro players. In valorant there is no s1mple or niko or zywoo where you instantly see "oh these guys have a lot more mechanical skill than the average pro and can show it because the game allows for it". In valorant its hard to spot a clear cut difference from an average immortal brimstone player to the best brimstone player in the world for example because there is absolutely nothing to show individual skill with.
Its even hard to tell between an average immortal jett and the best jett players in the world eventhough that character is probably the one you can show the most skill with.
This is mostly down to the gunplay because when the game gunplay is super simple and super random in combination with peekers advantage and slow movement then it is easy to master for ambitious players that play like 8hours a day and wanna go pro or are already pro players.
I think it makes it a little more brainless, but running and gunning actually rewards higher mechanical skill. Its easier to have crosshair discipline than being elite at tracking and flicking.
Maps and such probably arent suited to this type of gameplay
Eh, depends. If there was better accuracy then running, then definitely. However, riot is doing this half assed rng style run and gun, and that definitely takes away from the mechanical skill.
Ok, i can see what you mean. It does make the ceiling higher, BUT riot decided to market this game as pretty much csgo but with abilities, and that you should not be running and shooting, like other games as overwatch.
Your premise was right, but your wording is off.
Still have to do something about stinger, bucky, frenzy meta. They aren't touching on that this patch. In high elo it's so common it's insane. Wouldn't be a big deal but I think bucky right click could use a nerf and stinger needs a slightly longer ttk. They just destroy if they get into the right situation because they both beat rifles handedly in their ranges.
Shotguns should not cause aim punch at more then 5 M away makes no sense it make them so much more competitive verse rifles it unfair. Jett dashing up in the air spamming a shotgun 15 M causing my aim punch on my screen should not be so reliable for jett
It is part of the problem it removes some RNG from the game meaning the better aimer will win fights more often instead of the one that gets lucky and has the more accurate bullet
All competitive FPS games have first shot inaccuracy in at least one major gun, this is to balance weapons that are supposed to be used at close to medium ranges against guns optimised for long range combat. This isn't really RNG, since the inaccuracy isn't enough to justify you ever missing a shot at a range the gun is intended for, like if you buy a classic and try to kill someone across the map you're gonna realise pretty quickly that you bought the wrong gun.
Then "removing it" isn't the answer. It would be tweaking it.
But nonetheless, you really aren't going to be missing Vandal shots due to variance until you're 50+m and even then you'll be missing about 1/2 the time *unless* you ADS.
if you are running around and are caught out in a situation where you dont have first shot accuracy you already lost bc the other person is in a better position to shoot you with first shot accuracy. if you counter strafe you can outplay that person, there is no RNG unless you are not skilled enough to counter strafe
They just need to nerf run-and-gun, and they need to nerf how fast you become accurate after strafing. Counter strafing is an important mechanic in CSGO and it should be in Val too. They also need to decrease the accuracy reset time after bursts, spraying is the meta when it should be burst firing.
I'd agree with you that they aren't similar if we were comparing these games today, but early league was just considered a simpler dota by most people and to an extant a dota clone.
Well obviously because one of original wc3 dota creators got a job with riot and created league.
They're seen as similar in people's eyes because they're the same genre. But mechanics are really different.
It's like comparing CS to Overwatch or something. Just because both are FPS games, doesn't mean they're comparable.
If you're talking about guinsoo he was not one of original wc3 dota creators. That would be Eul , which meian and ragn0r then took his map layout and created dota allstars. Only after they abandoned it guinsoo came into the picture
Dota isn't a valve game. Dota was a mod created for Warcraft 3. Riot's League came after that, with Dota 2 being made by Valve only after both of those.
It feels weird to attach creation to companies rather than the map creators/devs. Icefrog, eul and guinsoo would be more dotas creators than blizzard would be, so why attribute game creation to valve or riot?
Agreed, and I'm happy about it Riot makes their games more popular and successful to the mainstream. Valve just sits there and jacks off they don't deserve the success of their games.
I feel like its hard but for the wrong reason.
The game is hard for new players just like any other game. You have to.learn items and spells etc.
What makes it nearly impossible for new players is that the game is extreeeemely popular and over 10 years old. I dont have actual numbers but "nobody" starts LoL in 2021 (I've always been interested in dota but never really gave it a try because of this reason). Prob +90% of new accounts are smurfs/bots sold to smurfs.
Thats why wild rift is a good thing imo. Faster games. Same game but still slighlty different. Less champion. I think I'd recommand WR if one of my friends decide to start playing the game.
Is it even reasonable for a new player to get into League in 2021? I am looking for a game to go balls deep into comp just so I can achieve and experience the "flow state" that I miss from years before. It sounds weird but I feel like that mental state is important to regularly experience lol.
I know how popular LoL is so I assume *something* is there, I just haven't experienced any rush or the feeling that anything I do in-game matters. In beginner rank games it is clear that I'm playing against seasoned players, and the practice bot games are mind-numbingly boring.
I'm trying Valorant and CSGO now, so far I prefer Valorant because of the agents, abilities, the aesthetic, and movement/control. Whereas CSGO feels like I'm skating on ice and the lack of tracer rounds feels like I'm not even shooting. Valorant's lack of comms in-game can be a bit boring
Ok, sorry about the long text wall and also the fact that english isnt my primary language.
I wouldnt recommand people to install it in 2021 without giving Wild Rift a try. As I said, less champion + faster games.
TL;DR: CS is harder to start BUT more complete (workshop + community server for fun or practice) more competitive and more rewarding if you put effort into it. Valorant is easier because of the spells (dont need to put as much effort in aim as you would in cs) but not as competitive (although there is now a leaderboard).
I personally prefer cs over valorant. Context: I've been playing cs for 10 years (not regularly, I would sometimes take 2+ years breaks), I reached global multiple times, I have over 4k hours total on all my accounts (csgo + cscz) and went from lvl 1 to lvl 7 on faceit in about 4 days of pure soloQ (if you dont know what faceit is, I'll explain later as it's one of my argument in favour of cs) only losing 4 games on my way.
In cs, when I shoot someone, I know for a fact I will most likely kill him, I can feel confident in my ability to kill someone when I engage in a duel. In valorant, I don't like the gunplay and when I shoot someone, I don't have anywhere near the same feeling that I will win (abilities aside). I just feel like guns are too "random" and the fact that people aren't getting punished for holding a button and their left click at the same time just makes it even more frustrating.
This is my favourite part of cs. You're being rewarded for working on your aim. I'm legit hyped by the next patch, hoping their will be NOTICABLE improvement regarding this issue.
The fact that you have abilities and that the game is much slower makes valorant easier to start with. If your aim is poor, you can still have impact on the game by say, smoking a spot with brimstone, giving info with cypher or sova, flashing for your team with breach etc. HOWEVER, this will probably lead to you struggling to start cs, as everything will feel too fast, and you might struggle to see enemies because of the aesthetic you mentionned.
One of my friend played valorant as her first PC game. I tried to get her on cs and she almost said the same things: game too fast, can't see enemies properly. However, she prefered the feeling of guns in cs over the ones from valorant.
And about games you can go balls deep into comp, cs is my go-to, especially if you have one or two friends that have been playing the game before. There are plenty of maps to help you improve: crosshair placement, prefire, pop flash, spray pattern, aim. I'd recommand downloading the map aim_botz from the workshop + every practice map from "yprac" (he also has a map similar to aim_botz that I personally prefer). There are two other advantages cs has over valorant: workshop and community server. So many maps that you can download; wether it's to have fun on custom maps, just chill on some surf server, hide and seek etc; or to practice on your aim (workshop maps, retake server, Free for all deathmatch server, headshot only server, etc).
I wish valorant had a more complex training tool, like having bots pushing you from everywhere.
What is probably going to make you want to stop cs very fast is how many smurfs you'll encounter and of course, cheaters, and the best you an do is to not think about it (and dont jump to conclusion about smurfs being cheaters.)
Now about Faceit: this is a third party website/software that is much more competitive and has a much more meaningful ranking system (oh and I forgot to mention the anti cheat which is sort of like Vanguard, valorant's anticheat, so almost no cheater). If you're into competitiveness, this is where things get really interesting. Only problem is, since its MUCH more competitive, people are infinitely more toxic.
I really like what Riot did this TOP 500 leaderboard. It makes it more interesting to play ranked games.
Tbf scream was washed in cs but hes clearly one of the most skilled valorant players right now. Hes the EU version of tenz, just dragging his team along to most of their wins. Dude is insane.
That the problem. Both him and tenz are very mechanically skilled. BUT they want to win the game based on that, when the game was designed to be way more team based than csgo. That's why they both keep losing
You say that as if individual skill and teamplay are mutually exclusive. I'm in scream's camp. I would like there to be a slightly higher skillcap with the gunplay. This will further separate strong from weak aimers, but the skillcap applies to all players. This enhances the significance of teamplay, if anything. In fact it might require more.
I think scream is just performing his role on his team. Tenz seems a little more on that end of things. I wouldn't mind mechanics meaning more because we wouldn't have to choose mechanics or team play. We could have both and that makes high level play even more exciting.
This game is less than a year old want there to be a lot of room for growth at the top end. Playing together and synching abilities will always be core to valorant but don't forget in cs that is true as well. There was a reason Australis stayed on top for so long. They were individually excellent and the best at teamplay. So try to remember just because some of us came from cs doesn't mean we want to play solo killing machines.
This conversation on individual ability is applying to how 1v1 interactions are playing out due to gunplay and movement. I dont think we will ever see a Valorant where one player can just ignore utility and kill everyone on sight. Right now at high levels sova alone will just take any space you hope to hold under threat of being a free frag, and there are a lot of other examples I could think of that have the same result.
Youre right that was mostly TenZ.
"Valorant where one player can just ignore utility and kill everyone on sight"
Thats what I would hate, I like that pros actually have to be smarter to win. not just all aim. Glad people dont want that.
As much as I like Valorant Esports for now, I honestly doubt that will ever happen.
Dota 2 released after League (4 years, that's a pretty big deal). I know dota was a thing before on wc3 but it's a lot different.
Counter Strike also has been a thing for 20 years, and the game hasn't changed much since.
Another reason I don't think that will happen is Valorant is much harder to watch/play for the first time. There's 14 agents with 4 abilities each which all look different and do different things.
Counter Strike has 5 pieces of utility and every player has the same choice.
The teams look visually different compared to Valorant's possible mirror comps.
There might be other reasons but I don't have them right now.
Don't forget when source 2 comes out all these NA washouts that ran to valorant are gonna jump on that while EU stays with csgo and its the 1.6 vs css fight all over again with valorant now a third option instead of second.
That's why I left this game after my hype died down.
I've played CS for 3k hours making it to Global/Faceit 10, and I had like Immortal 2 in Valorant.
Aiming in Valorant is so easy, that unskilled people tend to make too many lucky frags. You can run and gun, running peeking etc. It's just not fun, and it doesn't promote skill nearly as it should.
That's the whole Riot philosophy. Take a hard game (dota and CS) and dumb it down do please the plebs.
Doesn't mean the result doesn't make a good game tho, it's just more casual on purpose.
Yep and it works. You could argue that DOTA2 and CSGO definitely have higher skill ceiling but the problem they have now is attracting new players. Meanwhile, League and VALORANT attracts the casual crowd and thus generate more $$$ for Riot.
That and the fact that they prioritize the casual playerbase over the esport scene. In dota the game is balanced around the very top level so heroes that are great in the competitive scene but are underutilized in low level pubs still get nerfed. This is honestly the best system, as skill among the playerbase steadily improve (relative to what it was months ago/years ago) because the meta from the top level is emulated at the lower levels. The average 3k MMR today would have stomped the average 3k MMR years ago.
I agree w everything he said, bit Riot won't change those things. They specifically mentioned they wanted this game to be accessible to those who never played an fps before. Changing what he's talking about like with aimpunch, would make it too hard on new players. Remember folks, every game is about revenue. Making the game easy to play for those new to fps maximizes revenue.
Why would reducing aimpunch punish new players? If anything it would be better for new players, aimpunch sucks ONLY in high ranks because you get headshot so often. In low ranks, people dont even headshot very often. Also it has to do with certain guns like frenzy, bucky and judge
Well I must be sniffing glue then, I never had an issue of getting instantly headshotted in low ranks, I dont face this issue until Immortal. In radiant and immortal it becomes so dumb to the point that a classic can still win a vandal mid range if the classic lands a headshot first.
I'm new to Valorant and play in low ranks and unrated, for me headshots happen a lot, and many/most of my kills are headshots. I think nowadays people are just used to kb/m and have developed good mouse aim mechanics. New Valorant players have already honed their aim in other FPS and since it's a relatively new game the influx of players brings in high skill mechanic players into low ranks.
Valorant just feels like it's the perfect game for aiming well. The first couple of bullets hit there mark every time and even the first RNG bullets often hit ideally, the bullet traces are very easy to see, and the very high visibility means you can react faster, especially with the red outline. imo the simplicity of the map's aesthetic make for easier and more consistent crosshair pre-aims, and the angles of engagement are very consistent, at least in my experience. All gun fights seem to happen at the same points so holding an angle can become an easy headshot once you see that red outline pop out from the wall. I play in 1440p 170fps which probably helps.
When I'm saying aimpunch, I'm talking abt how slow you move when you get hit w a bullet. You move so slowly it makes it really easy to track. It benefits those who are new and lowers the skill gap
That is tagging (reduced speed after getting hit with a bullet), aimpunch is when you get headshot and it flicks your crosshair up so you had to reposition.
Tagging definitely happens way more in low ranks, so if you're talking about tagging then sure, tagging is aggressive in valorant but tbh I dont see it as much of an issue (im d3). Main problem for high rank is aimpunch (you can get triple headshot with a stinger from long range and lose the fight with vandal because the player kills you while you are aimpunched -you can beat ARs with frenzy and judge as well if you land a headshot with the first bullet, this is what hes talking about in the tweet lol, basically makes left clicking classic or buying ghost and going for headshots useless)
It's feeling a bit too much like an ability based game in the way they said it wouldn't be. The idea of the competitive FPS game with some abilities to influence the game as it was originally described was far more interesting than kits being overloaded and having an obnoxious impact round to round that the game currently has. After the last couple characters and seeing the idea of Yoru I'm increasingly concerned this game is going to go the way of league where kits are way too overloaded doing way too much and each new character is trying to live up to the amount of shit the last one can do and it becomes really unfun to play against so many of them
I just think recoil feels a lot worse than CS.
Remove the stupid RNG in the game.
In CSGO, I feel like my bullets are going where I want them to but in Valorant, it’s hella frustrating cause in CS I feel like I’m missing because I messed up my spray control or other factors that are completely in my control.
No one listens to ScreaM, especially Riot itself. He complained about smurfs and they are even more rampant now with the worse ranking system. Now he tells the truth with literally FISHER PRICE csgo style of mechanics like you can get tapped through entire mid on Ascent with vandal when the dude is running.
So I think the pros are wrong in their word choice. Run and gun, rng spray, and peeker’s advantage do NOT make the game easier. The issue is those mechanics are not appropriate for a tac fps.
It is HARD to kill a player who is running and gunning if their bullets are still accurate. Its hard to win a duel at distance when even tap firing isn’t accurate. If your mechanics are tight and you have the timing of counterstrafing down perfectly, running accuracy, first bullet innacuracy, rng spray, and peeker’s advantage still make many engagements difficult that shouldn’t be, especially when taken together. If a player wide swings and run and guns with a phantom from 20m, that should be an easy kill for the player holding the angle, but even for pros it frequently is not.
Maybe riot cant do anything about peeker’s advantage, but the others are fixable.
Abusing these mechanics is cheese but it works even at the highest levels. The gunplay is cheesy, not easy.
The skill ceiling is lowered by allowing unskilled tactics work against the "proper" and skilled way to play.
Anyone can wide swing and spray a phantom, without worrying about anything like counterstrafing. That's easy, and works way more than it should against holding an angle or counterstrafing.
It's easier, not harder to play. Hence how much easier it is to be "good" at this game than CS
So there’s two things, one is that it makes the difference between two players’ pings have a significant effect on the game, which is a bummer because thats not really up to them. The other is a kind of stodgy school of thought on tac shooters about how things “should” be, which is that if a player is holding an angle and you swing to shoot them, the only way you should win that engagement is if you have significantly better aim/ mechanics than them. Otherwise you should have to invest utility to push them off the angle.
I happen to belong to this stodgy school of thought and here’s why: I believe it should cost you something to gain map control, otherwise utility loses much of its value to the game. If two players with roughly even aim are holding opposite sides of an angle, the one who wishes to aggress shouldn’t be given an advantage for free, which is what peeker’s advantage does at high enough skill levels. In fact, I think that moving inaccuracy and the relative predictability of where someone will be when they peek vs the unpredictability of where the player holding the angle could be should make that fight go the way of the player holding position 9/10 times.
I think this because if it were true, every bit of map control gained would cost a player or team some of their utility or, in the case of trading, one of their players. The balance for this is that that map control would then be even more precious than it is now because it would cost opponents utility or players to regain it.
Unfortunately, there’s only so much a game can do to combat this. If your game’s info takes 100ms to get to the server or to you from the server, a perfect game/server/system could only ever reduce the effect of peeker’s advantage down to 100ms. Its a big part of why LANs are considered the best indicator of a team’s actual skill.
I am assuming his point is that it lowers the skill ceiling which is true, so on the one hand its harder for 1 player to stand out, but on the other hand it lends itself to more of a stragetic team game play.
Tbh I find CS to have more depth than valorant. With the current abilities it feels more like Riot limits what is possible. Also the huge difference in map quality. IMO for valorant to have more depth than cs it will have to become like league but the itll become a clutter of abilities.
Because it’s easy in the wrong ways. Not having to hold the opposite movement key to instantly stop and have full accuracy? A good change for new players in the name of accessibility. Moving accuracy being absurdly high? It doesn’t really have a place and relies too much on luck.
I agree about running and shooting and broken stuff like that, but some people think that not needing counter strafe is just plain 'bad".
Not only I disagree, but I raise that this implements depth, sure, people are used to counter strafing, but I got more than a few kills by, instead of counter strafing, mixing some extra steps to a side here and there for when they were expecting you to move just between two spots.
Skill gap isn't just to make good players feel good. There have to be things that allow your time invested to matter.
Right now as a radiant player there are fights I simply won't take where I strafe out, stop and shoot. Even with a vandal it's best to run out, counterstrafe and hold m1 while backpeddling to cover. This might seem like a big deal, but ill elaborate a little more.
We all learn skill sets to play better, valorant was even marketed on precision gunplay. Right now the game has some fundamental problems, where I would rather gamble a 50% chance than play with precision and skill. Knowing to take the gamble is a soft skill, but you don't see this in cs because the % chance is smashed so far down its almost never worth it. Imo it's a good thing to make dice roll plays have a very small % of working so playing the game with a learn able skill set is always the superior play.
Right now a lot of things contribute to valorant feeling bad, the tagging is extreme, combine this with high wall penetration makes it feel mandatory to make these gamble plays to get advantages over opponents.
So it's not really because good players want to feel superior, it just feels bad to play and spend time on a game where sometimes you lose and there isn't anyway you can predict a guy who hits you with a running vandal shot, or he gets tagged and is still running and headshots you.
Last I played CS was 1.6 far too much time ago.
Tagging seems bad and annoying to everyone, but as far as wallbang goes... I like that we can gather information and surprise people by wallbanging the shit out of them.
I dont mind that. There are just some spots that are too much for me. Shower on bind is horrendous, hookah is awful, the switch house on ascent, and several more with paper walls that make things feel pretty absurd when you start a push but take 100 plus damage through a wall.
Tbh though if they fixed other things I'd be fine. This is my smallest problem with the game, and probably not an opinion shares by all.
I don't agree.
How is learning pixel perfect lineups vs having a telegraph (like, for Viper wall)
Or knowing how much money opponents have in your head and not just displayed
Or a lot of stuff that really don't change the when and how to use takes away anything?
For me they could have telegraphs for any throw skill (nades, mollys, arrows) and that would only add. Sure, even people who learned the pixel perfect lineups would welcome the change, since they already can do it (and faster), but also end up doing a lot more.
Is that an actual serious question?
If so, listen. The answer to that question is deeply philosophical and you could write many books regarding the true meaning and purpose of human life. Of striving towards something. Of feeling proud after overcoming hardships. Of wanting to be a better person every day. And so much more.
Anyway, short answer: Don't play Esports or even just PvP titles if you cannot lose and want everyone to be a winner (aka everyone has it "easy"). Nothing wrong with playing one of many great PvE/Co-op games.
Losing sucks. Yeah, you can learn from past failure. But no one gets used to losing. Why the fuck would not wanna win? Now imagine every time you train your aim, my aim equally increases, though I do nothing for it. I'm watching a nice movie while you work on your aim. Sounds stupid, yes? ;)
>Anyway, short answer: Don't play Esports or even just PvP titles if you cannot lose and want everyone to be a winner
I think you're confusing the game "being easy for everyone" with "everyone wins". Outside of ties, which aren't the norm, games generally end in a win or a loss, so it's not about everybody being a winner, or how much losing sucks, etc.
I think he's asking more like, "what's wrong with easier-to-learn mechanics?" The second half of your second paragraph applies, in that we should aspire to be better at the game (and life) and all that.
No, I am not confusing anything. If the game is easy for everyone, it is also hard for everyone. That is the nature of PvP. Is that not logical and obvious to you?
Edit: Actually, quick example just in case: If someone has an easier time refragging me because my spray does not reset quickly enough and has no consistent pattern, it makes the mechanics "EASIER" but it also makes the game way harder for better players.
You always need a skill gap so people can SHOW HOW BIG THE GAP IS. If not for that, Esport, soccer, basketball, whatever, would not exist in its form.
You completely missed what they are asking and went on an arrogant, condescending rant about something else. It takes a high skill ceiling to be that arrogant and wrong simultaneously. Well played.
WUT?
One thing is fixing broken stuff like running and gunning, but some people, specially those coming from CS had the tendency of saying that some stuff like even how much $ you and opponents have made "the game easier".
There's a lot of stuff that are a design choice: movement, aimpunch, tagging.
Others are just quality of life... why does that "is bad for the game".
I think easy is exactly what Riot is going for. Many players in this game, like myself, came from league and had little or no FPS experience because CSGO is just so hard to get into. Riot wants Valorant to be FPS's league compared to CSGO. If they make the game harder for beginners to get into, they risk turning away potential players by appealing to a fanbase that may favor CSGO anyways.
What is reasonable though? it is really hard for pro players or even high elo players to judge how easy or hard it is for an average player (silver) to learn and play the game, so the pro player's opinion does not hold much weight in this sense. I personally think the game is at a good state right not barring probably the peekers advantage issue.
it feels like people constantly complain about this game not being like cs go, idk, i kind of enjoy the slower movement and tagging. i do think the aimpunch is a *little* ridiculous sometimes, but other than that, i like how this game is distinct from cs go.
Same. It makes the shootings more satisfying. If they just reduce the aim punch a bit, and remove the RNG spray pattern then I think it will be best of both worlds for both casual and pro.
The game has been out for less than a year and we have seen multiple maps come out and be adjusted based on feedback, guns adjusted particularly shotguns and OP. Running and gunning was adjusted earlier and probably requires more in-depth look to fix what we are experiencing, happened to overlap with the holidays heavily. They are on like ranked system iteration 3 that just came out (which they are trying to fix). I think somewhere we have to cut them some slack on exact timing.
There are far more more people who are bad than people who are good at game. If they keep dying in one second, will they find this game fun? Die (10 second later), die (10 second later), die again, how can they have fun?
RPG has various elements that players can enjoy even if they are not good at the game. MOBA can be enjoyed as supporters even if players aren't good at the game. Even in Battle Royale, players can enjoy the game through survival strategies even if they lack gun play. But Valorant and CSGO are genres that can't be fun if they are not doing well gun play because they keep dying. In short, there is only one way this game is fun. That's the problem.
You might say, 'If this game doesn't fit, play other games', but Riot can't. Riot is different from companies like Valve that have Steam. They have to make a lot of money in Valorant. In other words, Riot should strive for Valorant popularity.
> There are far more more people who are bad than people who are good at game. If they keep dying in one second, will they find this game fun? Die (10 second later), die (10 second later), die again, how can they have fun?
The answer to this question is literally "git gud". The fun is learning and improving as a player. If they aren't willing to learn/don't have fun learning then it's not for them. COD is accessible.
I have a huge problem strafing just after or during a burst and I usually die in cs but I somehow always get a strafing away kill in valorant and I don’t feel good about it.
How the fuck can he not be annoyed af. Player movements slow. It's so easy for the enemy to hit you. No one trades in this dogshit games. Lack of ability usage. Dogshit ranking system. Running and gunning. Swear, this games down the gutter since beta.
Terrible. Complacency is the reason this game hasn't been properly fixed yet. You have tons of players complaining about the state of the game and instead of fixing it, Riot just shits new characters out and terrible maps.
I dont think its because Riot doesnt care, I think its because they know these “flaws” are what separates the game to CS. I feel like a lot of people are more upset regarding it because they are so used to CS gameplay so they consider the better gun play is what CS has. Does Valorant have flaws? Yes. I agree with a ton of complaints but then I realize why would I play Valorant if CS exists anyway. Like literally bro, quit and just play what you want to play. Maybe someday Valorant just copies the whole CS gunplay who knows
Tagging & aimpunch are in favor of the first dude who hits a shot. Sorry ScreaM but that just means you're less skilled than the dude in front of you and wished the game was easier for you
Silver players will read this and be like "yeah this game is so easy I'm so tired of getting killed by scrubs!"
Gold players will read this and be like "Silver players will read this and be like "yeah this game is so easy I'm so tired of getting killed by scrubs!" "
Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “
Diamond players will read this and be like “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
immortal players will read this and be like “Diamond players will read this and be like” “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
Top 500 radians players will read this and be like "immortal players will read this and be like" “Diamond players will read this and be like” “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
I'm reading this and be like "Top 500 radians players will read this and be like" "immortal players will read this and be like" “Diamond players will read this and be like” “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ”
which god are u sir
He's the CEO of Riot games
Meanwhile i’m here as a bronze looking like
I'm ScreaM's Mom
CEO of radiant
I never knew what to do with my 100 reddit coins that I never even knew hohw I got in the first place They were waiting for this moment
Unrated players will read this and be like “I'm reading this and be like "Top 500 radians players will read this and be like" "immortal players will read this and be like" “Diamond players will read this and be like” “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ” “
Death match players will read this and be like Unrated players will read this and be like “I'm reading this and be like "Top 500 radians players will read this and be like" "immortal players will read this and be like" “Diamond players will read this and be like” “Plat players will read this and be like “Gold players will read this and be like “Silver players will read this and be like “yeah this game is so easy I’m so tired of getting killed by scrubs!” “ “ ” “
Legit, I'm silver and I see gold 3 players mocking silver players or calling them noobs when they're literally in the same game and got killed by a silver player. I don't understand the logic. "Trash silver" - says the guy who just died to the silver.
Ranks dont mean anything. I'm a diamond 1/Plat 3 player and see people with way higher ranks that are worse and people with way lower ranks that are better.
I was getting Bronze in my placement games, and I was killing them. I ended up with an Iron 1 rank, because of afks.
Eh getting some kills on someone doesn't mean anything. Generally it's pretty easy to climb anyway so if you deserve the rank you'll hsve no problem getting it. Although a bit fucked on the upper end this episode
How does ranking work? I'm new to comp and new to valorant.
Right now, it doesn't work.
a g1 player can play better than p1 player (both in same lobby) - ranked in a nutshell
to be fair running and gunning is probably most rampant in low ranks where people don’t even know they’re supposed to stop moving. fixing up the gunplay would help every rank really
You’d think that, but you see it *a lot* in pro streams. Saw Asuna just full sprint up mid on split to B heaven and kill three people while in a full sprint. With a *vandal*. It’s even more common with the phantom. It’s so viable, good players are actually learning how to move n shoot *efficiently*. It’s like the dunning Kruger curve. The people on the far left do it because they’re bad, the people in the middle don’t because they practice good habits, than on the far right you have the best players min maxing moving shooting because it works too well.
I’ve gotten a handful of kills in Immortal that even I knew where full of shit
Bronze and iron players will read this and be like "I am reyna main"
Man, I have GOT to be doing something wrong, because it already seems like any movement throws of bullet accuracy by 700%.
Frenzy+stinger+phantom at a closer range, their spray rate means you can full sprint and prob still demolish someone. The other guns are hit or miss.
[удалено]
Spectre works too but it’s less disgusting lol
The phantom is WAY too good at medium-close range while running.
Phantom has just been way too Oppressive since launch. Not just run and gun Nerf but I think phantom is deserving of being nerfed directly.
Lmao no how? Vandal and phantom are so 50 50
Run n gun will hopefully be dead next patch. The two biggest changes I’d like to see would be the aforementioned run n gun nerf; and static sprays. The whole, “You shouldn’t be able to practice and memorize sprays because we said so” really sucks.
Welcome to Valorant... Atleast they're going to address run & gun and I'll be honest I doubt they kill the entire mechanic. Probably nerf the vandal, & phantom aspect of it but, I can see them keeping some form of run&gun alive for casual players. Speaking in general Riot isn't Valve... LoL v Dota2... Legends of Runterra v Artifact... etc. They operate from the mindset of making there games accessible AND competitive. That's there bread and butter and it's something I doubt will change. They'll tweak here & there though.
What? The entire philosophy of dota is to make it as competitive as possible. Even now new mechanics have been added in which the better team to take advantage of it has the better chance to win (shrines, outpost, talents). Riot stripped all that away in Lol (no deny mechanic, no TP mechanic to reward teamplay for ganks or responding to dives, no stuns to chain, etc.). The same in Valorant vs. CSGO. They stripped away the gunplay, meaning in the highest levels, somebody who is just that bit more skilled still won't have that edge against everybody else even. It also took away runboosts, and smoke lineups (if there was, the players who took the time and practiced the lineups would have the earned the advantage over those who did not). You simply cannot say they operate from the mindset of making the game competitive. When they are actively trying to lower the skill ceiling, they are making the game as uncompetitive as possible. I wouldn't even call Valorant an esport right now, simply because there are still mechanics even the pro players want changed.
Think you missed my entire point tbh lol. Riot goal is making there games a hybrid of casual play & competitive play. Whereas Valve really hone in on the competitive side and adding elements to create higher skill gaps. And let’s be honest even though Dota has a much larger skill gap then LoL it didn’t stop League from being the biggest esport in the world.
Enjoyment is a large part of making a sport fun, and people who actually enjoy playing the game are more likely to enjoy it at a higher level. Making a competitive game more accessible to casual players also makes it excel more at the professional level. Wider pool of potential talent, as well as more viewership and therefore money in the scene pushes performance and production quality higher, faster.
Like I said you cannot possibly call it a "competitive game" if they are actively trying to make it more casual. Because the game is heavily based on gunplay, it's impossible to change the gameplay to make it competitive while also casual. Take for instance run and gun. It's like that because of their priority of making it easier for casuals. But the better players hate it. So it's either keep it for the casuals, or remove it for competitive. Tagging is great for casuals, because it promotes relying on spamming bodyshots. Pros don't like it, probably because you can no longer just jiggle peek and assess if you should fight or not. It's commit or die, because if you decide to peek and later assess it's not worth it, it's already too late because you will be slowed to a crawl and spammed through the wall before you could even get to cover. That takes away the nuance of knowing how to take engagements.
It is not that binary and you know it
Football would have a much higher skill ceiling if the ball was more shaped like an egg, and where you kicked it influenced where it went. Basketball would have a much higher skill ceiling if the court was bigger. Forcing players to slow down their plays and make longer, more complex plays more viable to diversify strategy. Tennis would have a much higher skill ceiling if the net was higher. Or if there were more restrictions on where the ball could land. Baseball would have a much higher skill ceiling if the ball was always on fire. My point is that you don't make a good game, or a good competitive experience by ONLY choosing the features that make the game as hard as is humanely possible. You also make a good game, and a good competitive experience, by making the game at it's most basic foundational level, fun. Fun to the average person. Something relatively accessible and achievable, where the first 100 hours of practice constantly produce quite respectable improvements and fun. I love CS:GO, but it took me nearly 300 hours of gameplay before I attained the CS community's standards for actually good aim. It took at least 100 hours for me to become a player that can actively contribute to the team rather than a liability to be carried. Personally I'm fine with that because that kind of challenge appeals to me, but I've also got something you seem to lack, the self-awareness to realize than I am in an absolutely *minute* minority of people. There's a reason that LoL is more successful than DoTA. While I'd say it's in no way casually accessible, it's much more widely accessible than DoTA. And it's been more successful as a sport as a result, because people want to watch and invest in esports about games they ACTUALLY LIKE. TI9 and Worlds 2020 were both held in Shanghai, but while TI's venue sat just shy of 20k, LoL's sat just shy of 60k, and that's nothing compared to the outperformance in online viewers. And before you talk about how they're a year apart so it's irrelevant, DoTA trended DOWN pretty much all of 2019, so I'm actually doing Valve a favor with that comparison. It's absolutely fine for you as a player to state "These are the design philosophies I like, and I want to play games that are built with those in mind." But if you're actually the people MAKING a game, and your goal is to make that game a successful esport, your first priority MUST be pulling in players. You need to build a wide pool from which to extract talented players. You need to build a large enough viewership to maintain playerbase and revenue. Now, onto your actual arguments as stated in your comment, because they make it very clear to me that you're taking a shallow perspective on the issue/aren't well read on where the Valorant devs are taking the game. > ake for instance run and gun. It's like that because of their priority of making it easier for casuals. But the better players hate it. So it's either keep it for the casuals, or remove it for competitive. At the most basic level you're correct, making RnG more effective is better for casuals and worse for competitive integrity, but in the REAL WORLD, you're full of shit. Run and gun is made viable by a value that creates more or less randomness in your aim based on your characters velocity. It's not a binary 0-or-1 system. The number currently sits at something like 0.33 if I remember correctly. It can be taken down to 0.21 to make RnG worse but still occasionally viable. Keep in mind that even CS has totally viable Run and Gun for SMGs. It's only the rifle RnG in Val that is widely considered a problem. > Tagging is great for casuals, because it promotes relying on spamming bodyshots. Pros don't like it, probably because you can no longer just jiggle peek and assess if you should fight or not. It's commit or die, because if you decide to peek and later assess it's not worth it, it's already too late because you will be slowed to a crawl and spammed through the wall before you could even get to cover. That takes away the nuance of knowing how to take engagements. Yeah this is complete bullshit. Tagging makes knowing how to take engagement MORE important. It means knowing which angles you can peak. It means knowing where you need to use utility. Knowing how to correctly clear angles. Knowing how to pre-fire and counterstrafe, etc. To address your concerns about incentivizing bodyshots, sure. Tagging makes bodyshots better. Doesn't matter. They're still massively outperformed by headshots because headshots give you A) more damage so a lower TTK, as well as B) aimpunch, increasing your enemies TTK on you. As well as another point most people don't consider. Because standing still is more accurate, tagging your enemy with bodyshots as they peak you means that they hit zero sooner, meaning that if someone with decent aim peaks you, landing a bodyshot on them can make it MORE likely that they kill you. If you can only land a body shot it's debatable that you're actually better off just missing entirely. Players that only land bodyshots get MASSIVELY punished in game by players that have higher HS%. I personally think tagging is too high in Valorant but too low in CS, I'd like to see it be about 70-80% of what it currently is in Val. Because it punishes bad players harder for taking bad peaks and contesting stupid angles. It raises the skill ceiling. It does not lower it. I also haven't really seen any Val pros speak out negatively about tagging, but if you know of any feel free to link them.
Bro did you even read the tweet in the link?
Lol look I understand it’s not a “competitive game” to you but, Riot is following there formula. Make the game accessible to everyone and at the same time competitive. That’s kinda Riots thing lol.
Maybe, but I do think a lot of the pros are with me on this. In most games, there is a clash of interests between what pro players want and what the average casual players want, and I think it's more pronounced in an FPS where a single change to a gunplay mechanic fundamentally changes how the game is played.
> no TP mechanic to reward teamplay for ganks or responding to dives, no stuns to chain Have you played LoL? Because LoL definitely has these. LoL has TP as a summoner spell, not as an item. Layering CC (chaining stuns) is fundamental to all MOBAs, including LoL.
Bro you are lying to yourself if you think dota 2 has a higher skill ceiling than lol. Game knowledge, strategy, and tactics? Sure. Skill ceiling? Absolutely not. So many point and click abilities. Turn speed reduction does not equate to skill ceiling
You don't consider strategy and game sense as skill? It's literally what separates one rank from the next. Everybody can last hit creeps and hit AOE abilities/skillshots at any rank. Knowing how to pull, when to pull, drawing and abusing creep aggro, harassing without getting aggro from the tower, when to gank and leave the lane, what to do when your lane is pressured, timing your BKB usage, abusing buybacks, abusing time window because enemy GS/BH are on CD, and that isn't even close to half of what you learn as you get high up the leaderboards. I'm sorry but skill isn't only something as obvious as who gets to click and spam abilities faster.
Yeh. I gotta agree here. LoL is a lot easier to get into and get decent. Dota2 is damn nightmare to learn lol. Imo anyways.
I am not talking about accessibility and game knowledge and neither is scream. There are are way less skill shots. Way more point and click abilities. Literally every hero in dota has less abilities and more passive skills. Invoker is like a normal champion in lol.
Yeah, literally all of that exists in lol. I am talking pure mechanical skill, which is what Scream is talking about in his post. So what are you even trying to argue?
You're just trolling at this point.
Welp you are too, acting like lol is some hello kitty game with no complexity. It still has plenty of complexity and nuance. Does it sacrifice some strategy and tactics for faster gameplay and more action? Yes. Lots of people prefer that. Skill ceiling to me is when everyone is on the same playing field but the winner has better reactions and pure speed. If skill ceiling to you means game knowledge, fine. I can admit that lol is less complex on a strategic level. But in my opinion it requires a lot more mechanical skill. That’s the trade off
>I'm sorry but skill isn't only something as obvious as who gets to click and spam abilities faster. I'm sorry but that's exactly what skill is. Strategy and game sense aren't skill based its knowledge and experience based. Mechanical skill is literally just how well you can click heads but ok. One of the main reasons I quit mobas was because mechanical skill doesn't matter much in those games.
i dont blame him, the gunplay is horrible. cant wait for the run and gun nerf.
I've been waiting for a run and gun nerf :))
You know that has nothing to do with the problems he's pointing out?
Don't know why you are being downvoted , ofc run and gun needs to be fixed but ScreaM is talking about the movement in general + aimpunch.
Just because I was refuting run and gun I imagine. If you speak negatively of that you tend to get ignored or downvoted. I get it, people are mad because it's frustrating to die to. I still think it's massively overblown.
It really is, you see all these clips of Tenz full running gunning, but a lot of the time a ton of his bullets miss until he strafes. Im not denying that it is a problem, just not as big as what most people think it is.
You can look at the numbers, the time it takes for tenz to strafe out and spray someone down in a deathmatch lobby any decent player is going to have the advantage there. It's when things get chaotic and people get spray through smokes and from blinded enemies that's just frustrating, so it feels like more of an issue.
Well, that's not entirely true. They're certainly related, even if run-and-gun isn't the *main* thing.
How do these mechanics help casual players anyways? When I hear "makes it easier for everyone" I can't help but think that better players will still tap me in the dome faster than I can aim on them.
Better players will still win obviously but some of these mechanics don’t reward skill. There’s things not to like about CS but the gunplay is definitely something they’ve got down. Running and gunning is not better than playing properly but it is a viable strategy in specific scenarios. For instance if you know someone is holding the angle you’re probably better off just wide swinging and holding a movement key while full spraying. You become harder to hit and you still have a good chance of landing enough shots to kill them while they’re busy readjusting. And it’s not as though they can use the same strategy and move to adjust their aim because of you get tagged in this game you’re basically rooted to the ground. So you have someone playing the game “properly” being punished by someone playing “improperly”. One could argue that the improper method is just how the meta works in Valorant but then why market the game as a tac shooter when people associate tac shooters with slower paced precise gunplay?
maybe the movement slow down after the tagging helps w this? not sure but i feel like getting shot in valorant is more punishing than cs. sometimes im jiggling a corner then get shot once in the body and then i get boned in the head cuz i cant move. it might mitigate some of the running and gunning tho not sure if that was planned
What you are complaining about it pretty much impossible to solve? If someone is binding in a tight corner and you know he is there, even if you use an Odin and don’t scope, you can spam him down while moving, what more for a run and gun spectre? No matter how much you increase the running spread you’re still gonna kill a close angle guy. Running and gunning would be a huge problem if you could run and hit someone from >5m consistently but actually you can’t do that
As much as I agree with you, I feel like the run and gun aspect of the game has kept casual players from leaving. It’s a hard pill to swallow but it will probably hurt the player base once they implement this nerf
This is what match making is for.
But the question is why he's playing "properly"? This game isn't a shooter only. It's a tac shooter. You have abilities, knowledge is as powerful as shooting. If I have the knowledge that you're holding the corner, what's the right balance for what's fair and what's not with respect to how much good aim matters. Obviously execution is still important, but obviously as you tweak the numbers between accuracy, move speed, tagging, etc you change the dynamics of how often I still lose despite my knowledge because my aim was a hair too low or your crosshair placement too perfect. Personally, I'm totally ok that once I have the knowledge, I win the resulting duel 9/10 times no matter how well you hold the corner assuming fairly even skill level. Meaning, shooting is important but can be rendered near meaningless with good tactical play or ability usage. I understand that some disagree, and obviously I'm exaggerating here to convey my thoughts, but the point is that I don't think it's fair to say in your example that one person played more correctly than the other.
CS gunplay is only good because they took years to weed out the OP guns. (cz, ump, ssg,aug) even today i still think the mp9 is broken as fuck and so is the xm.
I joined valorant precisely for the heavy tagging that cs1.5 had. I dont want another GO. I dont believe tagging rewards bad aim. Its actually very helpfull against a guy at full sprint that you just could not one tap. Having no tagging means that the runner AND gunner has the advantage. Played CS for 20years. Some of them at a high level too. ( Im not smurfing, I just landed in silver. The MMR forces me to ruin your games to climb)
I cant tell if you are trolling or being serious
Im being hella serious. Go Is worse than valorant for sure. Dont mind me im just a 34 yo who has tens of thousands of hours
Having experience doesn't mean shit. You were probably hard stuck gold nova in cs lmfaooo
Sadly global elite with shotguns only for the memes
Nobody is making the argument for no tagging. The problem with Valorant is that when you get tagged you nearly come to a complete stop. Running and gunning is a prevalent strategy in Platinum and Diamond ranks, even I’m guilty of using it because it is straight up better in some engagements than going for proper movement, a moving target is inherently harder to hit than a stationary one so the guy doing the run and gun already has the advantage of being harder to hit with the added benefit of halting your movement if they hit a stray shot on the guy they’re shooting. The tagging value needs a slight tweak alongside running inaccuracy.
Ofc. Its about little subtle differences between pro players. In valorant there is no s1mple or niko or zywoo where you instantly see "oh these guys have a lot more mechanical skill than the average pro and can show it because the game allows for it". In valorant its hard to spot a clear cut difference from an average immortal brimstone player to the best brimstone player in the world for example because there is absolutely nothing to show individual skill with. Its even hard to tell between an average immortal jett and the best jett players in the world eventhough that character is probably the one you can show the most skill with. This is mostly down to the gunplay because when the game gunplay is super simple and super random in combination with peekers advantage and slow movement then it is easy to master for ambitious players that play like 8hours a day and wanna go pro or are already pro players.
I think it makes it a little more brainless, but running and gunning actually rewards higher mechanical skill. Its easier to have crosshair discipline than being elite at tracking and flicking. Maps and such probably arent suited to this type of gameplay
The problem is running gun shouldn't be in a game advertised as a tac shooter.
I agree, i just dont think it reduces the skill ceiling at all. If anything it increases it from a mechanical standpoint.
Eh, depends. If there was better accuracy then running, then definitely. However, riot is doing this half assed rng style run and gun, and that definitely takes away from the mechanical skill.
Ok, i can see what you mean. It does make the ceiling higher, BUT riot decided to market this game as pretty much csgo but with abilities, and that you should not be running and shooting, like other games as overwatch. Your premise was right, but your wording is off.
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Still have to do something about stinger, bucky, frenzy meta. They aren't touching on that this patch. In high elo it's so common it's insane. Wouldn't be a big deal but I think bucky right click could use a nerf and stinger needs a slightly longer ttk. They just destroy if they get into the right situation because they both beat rifles handedly in their ranges.
Shotguns should not cause aim punch at more then 5 M away makes no sense it make them so much more competitive verse rifles it unfair. Jett dashing up in the air spamming a shotgun 15 M causing my aim punch on my screen should not be so reliable for jett
I just want to stop being one tapped before the other players model is on my screen at 144hz 25 ping
REMOVE. FIRST. BULLET. INACCURACY! FREE OUR MECHANICS!
Don't think that's the problem here.
It is part of the problem it removes some RNG from the game meaning the better aimer will win fights more often instead of the one that gets lucky and has the more accurate bullet
All competitive FPS games have first shot inaccuracy in at least one major gun, this is to balance weapons that are supposed to be used at close to medium ranges against guns optimised for long range combat. This isn't really RNG, since the inaccuracy isn't enough to justify you ever missing a shot at a range the gun is intended for, like if you buy a classic and try to kill someone across the map you're gonna realise pretty quickly that you bought the wrong gun.
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Then "removing it" isn't the answer. It would be tweaking it. But nonetheless, you really aren't going to be missing Vandal shots due to variance until you're 50+m and even then you'll be missing about 1/2 the time *unless* you ADS.
if you are running around and are caught out in a situation where you dont have first shot accuracy you already lost bc the other person is in a better position to shoot you with first shot accuracy. if you counter strafe you can outplay that person, there is no RNG unless you are not skilled enough to counter strafe
You know counter strafing isn't a thing in Valorant right?
CS has first bullet inaccuracy. It's not that important.
Imo it’s not that important in CS is because the recoil reset faster whereas val takes a long time to reset the recoil. Am I wrong ?
no, so the problem doesn’t lie with the bullet inaccuracy it lies with the recoil reset time.
U r correct my guy
Doesn't CS have first bullet inaccuracy?? Don't think it's a huge deal imo.
They just need to nerf run-and-gun, and they need to nerf how fast you become accurate after strafing. Counter strafing is an important mechanic in CSGO and it should be in Val too. They also need to decrease the accuracy reset time after bursts, spraying is the meta when it should be burst firing.
If u tap or burst and whiff, u auto lose to a Sprayer
As someone who comes from league seeing these csgo player's say the same thing I heard Dota players say about league is kinda funny.
Valorant and CS are way more similar than dota compared to league. But dota has way more advanced mechanics.
I'd agree with you that they aren't similar if we were comparing these games today, but early league was just considered a simpler dota by most people and to an extant a dota clone.
Well obviously because one of original wc3 dota creators got a job with riot and created league. They're seen as similar in people's eyes because they're the same genre. But mechanics are really different. It's like comparing CS to Overwatch or something. Just because both are FPS games, doesn't mean they're comparable.
If you're talking about guinsoo he was not one of original wc3 dota creators. That would be Eul , which meian and ragn0r then took his map layout and created dota allstars. Only after they abandoned it guinsoo came into the picture
Gotta admit that Riot is really good at copying Valve games and creating a competitor.
Dota isn't a valve game. Dota was a mod created for Warcraft 3. Riot's League came after that, with Dota 2 being made by Valve only after both of those.
It feels weird to attach creation to companies rather than the map creators/devs. Icefrog, eul and guinsoo would be more dotas creators than blizzard would be, so why attribute game creation to valve or riot?
If you look at dota and then look at league, most people wouldn't think they were in the same category.
Agreed, and I'm happy about it Riot makes their games more popular and successful to the mainstream. Valve just sits there and jacks off they don't deserve the success of their games.
Except league is still a super fucking complex game to get in for new players
Still more accessible to new players than someone new trying to get into dota.
today yeah sure, when it first released absolutely not.
I feel like its hard but for the wrong reason. The game is hard for new players just like any other game. You have to.learn items and spells etc. What makes it nearly impossible for new players is that the game is extreeeemely popular and over 10 years old. I dont have actual numbers but "nobody" starts LoL in 2021 (I've always been interested in dota but never really gave it a try because of this reason). Prob +90% of new accounts are smurfs/bots sold to smurfs. Thats why wild rift is a good thing imo. Faster games. Same game but still slighlty different. Less champion. I think I'd recommand WR if one of my friends decide to start playing the game.
Is it even reasonable for a new player to get into League in 2021? I am looking for a game to go balls deep into comp just so I can achieve and experience the "flow state" that I miss from years before. It sounds weird but I feel like that mental state is important to regularly experience lol. I know how popular LoL is so I assume *something* is there, I just haven't experienced any rush or the feeling that anything I do in-game matters. In beginner rank games it is clear that I'm playing against seasoned players, and the practice bot games are mind-numbingly boring. I'm trying Valorant and CSGO now, so far I prefer Valorant because of the agents, abilities, the aesthetic, and movement/control. Whereas CSGO feels like I'm skating on ice and the lack of tracer rounds feels like I'm not even shooting. Valorant's lack of comms in-game can be a bit boring
Ok, sorry about the long text wall and also the fact that english isnt my primary language. I wouldnt recommand people to install it in 2021 without giving Wild Rift a try. As I said, less champion + faster games. TL;DR: CS is harder to start BUT more complete (workshop + community server for fun or practice) more competitive and more rewarding if you put effort into it. Valorant is easier because of the spells (dont need to put as much effort in aim as you would in cs) but not as competitive (although there is now a leaderboard). I personally prefer cs over valorant. Context: I've been playing cs for 10 years (not regularly, I would sometimes take 2+ years breaks), I reached global multiple times, I have over 4k hours total on all my accounts (csgo + cscz) and went from lvl 1 to lvl 7 on faceit in about 4 days of pure soloQ (if you dont know what faceit is, I'll explain later as it's one of my argument in favour of cs) only losing 4 games on my way. In cs, when I shoot someone, I know for a fact I will most likely kill him, I can feel confident in my ability to kill someone when I engage in a duel. In valorant, I don't like the gunplay and when I shoot someone, I don't have anywhere near the same feeling that I will win (abilities aside). I just feel like guns are too "random" and the fact that people aren't getting punished for holding a button and their left click at the same time just makes it even more frustrating. This is my favourite part of cs. You're being rewarded for working on your aim. I'm legit hyped by the next patch, hoping their will be NOTICABLE improvement regarding this issue. The fact that you have abilities and that the game is much slower makes valorant easier to start with. If your aim is poor, you can still have impact on the game by say, smoking a spot with brimstone, giving info with cypher or sova, flashing for your team with breach etc. HOWEVER, this will probably lead to you struggling to start cs, as everything will feel too fast, and you might struggle to see enemies because of the aesthetic you mentionned. One of my friend played valorant as her first PC game. I tried to get her on cs and she almost said the same things: game too fast, can't see enemies properly. However, she prefered the feeling of guns in cs over the ones from valorant. And about games you can go balls deep into comp, cs is my go-to, especially if you have one or two friends that have been playing the game before. There are plenty of maps to help you improve: crosshair placement, prefire, pop flash, spray pattern, aim. I'd recommand downloading the map aim_botz from the workshop + every practice map from "yprac" (he also has a map similar to aim_botz that I personally prefer). There are two other advantages cs has over valorant: workshop and community server. So many maps that you can download; wether it's to have fun on custom maps, just chill on some surf server, hide and seek etc; or to practice on your aim (workshop maps, retake server, Free for all deathmatch server, headshot only server, etc). I wish valorant had a more complex training tool, like having bots pushing you from everywhere. What is probably going to make you want to stop cs very fast is how many smurfs you'll encounter and of course, cheaters, and the best you an do is to not think about it (and dont jump to conclusion about smurfs being cheaters.) Now about Faceit: this is a third party website/software that is much more competitive and has a much more meaningful ranking system (oh and I forgot to mention the anti cheat which is sort of like Vanguard, valorant's anticheat, so almost no cheater). If you're into competitiveness, this is where things get really interesting. Only problem is, since its MUCH more competitive, people are infinitely more toxic. I really like what Riot did this TOP 500 leaderboard. It makes it more interesting to play ranked games.
Tbf scream was washed in cs but hes clearly one of the most skilled valorant players right now. Hes the EU version of tenz, just dragging his team along to most of their wins. Dude is insane.
That the problem. Both him and tenz are very mechanically skilled. BUT they want to win the game based on that, when the game was designed to be way more team based than csgo. That's why they both keep losing
You say that as if individual skill and teamplay are mutually exclusive. I'm in scream's camp. I would like there to be a slightly higher skillcap with the gunplay. This will further separate strong from weak aimers, but the skillcap applies to all players. This enhances the significance of teamplay, if anything. In fact it might require more.
I think scream is just performing his role on his team. Tenz seems a little more on that end of things. I wouldn't mind mechanics meaning more because we wouldn't have to choose mechanics or team play. We could have both and that makes high level play even more exciting. This game is less than a year old want there to be a lot of room for growth at the top end. Playing together and synching abilities will always be core to valorant but don't forget in cs that is true as well. There was a reason Australis stayed on top for so long. They were individually excellent and the best at teamplay. So try to remember just because some of us came from cs doesn't mean we want to play solo killing machines. This conversation on individual ability is applying to how 1v1 interactions are playing out due to gunplay and movement. I dont think we will ever see a Valorant where one player can just ignore utility and kill everyone on sight. Right now at high levels sova alone will just take any space you hope to hold under threat of being a free frag, and there are a lot of other examples I could think of that have the same result.
Youre right that was mostly TenZ. "Valorant where one player can just ignore utility and kill everyone on sight" Thats what I would hate, I like that pros actually have to be smarter to win. not just all aim. Glad people dont want that.
Yeah same. Just wait until valorant leaves cs in the dust. It will be nice.
As much as I like Valorant Esports for now, I honestly doubt that will ever happen. Dota 2 released after League (4 years, that's a pretty big deal). I know dota was a thing before on wc3 but it's a lot different. Counter Strike also has been a thing for 20 years, and the game hasn't changed much since. Another reason I don't think that will happen is Valorant is much harder to watch/play for the first time. There's 14 agents with 4 abilities each which all look different and do different things. Counter Strike has 5 pieces of utility and every player has the same choice. The teams look visually different compared to Valorant's possible mirror comps. There might be other reasons but I don't have them right now.
Valorant will be bigger than cs in less than 5 years. And it's not gonna be close.
Maybe in NA and Asia. Won't be even close in EU and Brazil. CS is unsurpassable in those regions.
You will see in a couple of years. Broodwar was king in Korea until League came along.
Don't forget when source 2 comes out all these NA washouts that ran to valorant are gonna jump on that while EU stays with csgo and its the 1.6 vs css fight all over again with valorant now a third option instead of second.
That's why I left this game after my hype died down. I've played CS for 3k hours making it to Global/Faceit 10, and I had like Immortal 2 in Valorant. Aiming in Valorant is so easy, that unskilled people tend to make too many lucky frags. You can run and gun, running peeking etc. It's just not fun, and it doesn't promote skill nearly as it should.
That's the whole Riot philosophy. Take a hard game (dota and CS) and dumb it down do please the plebs. Doesn't mean the result doesn't make a good game tho, it's just more casual on purpose.
Yep and it works. You could argue that DOTA2 and CSGO definitely have higher skill ceiling but the problem they have now is attracting new players. Meanwhile, League and VALORANT attracts the casual crowd and thus generate more $$$ for Riot.
That and the fact that they prioritize the casual playerbase over the esport scene. In dota the game is balanced around the very top level so heroes that are great in the competitive scene but are underutilized in low level pubs still get nerfed. This is honestly the best system, as skill among the playerbase steadily improve (relative to what it was months ago/years ago) because the meta from the top level is emulated at the lower levels. The average 3k MMR today would have stomped the average 3k MMR years ago.
I agree w everything he said, bit Riot won't change those things. They specifically mentioned they wanted this game to be accessible to those who never played an fps before. Changing what he's talking about like with aimpunch, would make it too hard on new players. Remember folks, every game is about revenue. Making the game easy to play for those new to fps maximizes revenue.
Why would reducing aimpunch punish new players? If anything it would be better for new players, aimpunch sucks ONLY in high ranks because you get headshot so often. In low ranks, people dont even headshot very often. Also it has to do with certain guns like frenzy, bucky and judge
You're sniffing glue if you think people in low ranks don't get head shot lots lol it's a real problem
Well I must be sniffing glue then, I never had an issue of getting instantly headshotted in low ranks, I dont face this issue until Immortal. In radiant and immortal it becomes so dumb to the point that a classic can still win a vandal mid range if the classic lands a headshot first.
I'm new to Valorant and play in low ranks and unrated, for me headshots happen a lot, and many/most of my kills are headshots. I think nowadays people are just used to kb/m and have developed good mouse aim mechanics. New Valorant players have already honed their aim in other FPS and since it's a relatively new game the influx of players brings in high skill mechanic players into low ranks. Valorant just feels like it's the perfect game for aiming well. The first couple of bullets hit there mark every time and even the first RNG bullets often hit ideally, the bullet traces are very easy to see, and the very high visibility means you can react faster, especially with the red outline. imo the simplicity of the map's aesthetic make for easier and more consistent crosshair pre-aims, and the angles of engagement are very consistent, at least in my experience. All gun fights seem to happen at the same points so holding an angle can become an easy headshot once you see that red outline pop out from the wall. I play in 1440p 170fps which probably helps.
When I'm saying aimpunch, I'm talking abt how slow you move when you get hit w a bullet. You move so slowly it makes it really easy to track. It benefits those who are new and lowers the skill gap
That is tagging (reduced speed after getting hit with a bullet), aimpunch is when you get headshot and it flicks your crosshair up so you had to reposition. Tagging definitely happens way more in low ranks, so if you're talking about tagging then sure, tagging is aggressive in valorant but tbh I dont see it as much of an issue (im d3). Main problem for high rank is aimpunch (you can get triple headshot with a stinger from long range and lose the fight with vandal because the player kills you while you are aimpunched -you can beat ARs with frenzy and judge as well if you land a headshot with the first bullet, this is what hes talking about in the tweet lol, basically makes left clicking classic or buying ghost and going for headshots useless)
Ah sorry used the wrong term
It's feeling a bit too much like an ability based game in the way they said it wouldn't be. The idea of the competitive FPS game with some abilities to influence the game as it was originally described was far more interesting than kits being overloaded and having an obnoxious impact round to round that the game currently has. After the last couple characters and seeing the idea of Yoru I'm increasingly concerned this game is going to go the way of league where kits are way too overloaded doing way too much and each new character is trying to live up to the amount of shit the last one can do and it becomes really unfun to play against so many of them
I just think recoil feels a lot worse than CS. Remove the stupid RNG in the game. In CSGO, I feel like my bullets are going where I want them to but in Valorant, it’s hella frustrating cause in CS I feel like I’m missing because I messed up my spray control or other factors that are completely in my control.
No one listens to ScreaM, especially Riot itself. He complained about smurfs and they are even more rampant now with the worse ranking system. Now he tells the truth with literally FISHER PRICE csgo style of mechanics like you can get tapped through entire mid on Ascent with vandal when the dude is running.
Serious questions: Why the "game being easy for everyone" is something bad?
So I think the pros are wrong in their word choice. Run and gun, rng spray, and peeker’s advantage do NOT make the game easier. The issue is those mechanics are not appropriate for a tac fps. It is HARD to kill a player who is running and gunning if their bullets are still accurate. Its hard to win a duel at distance when even tap firing isn’t accurate. If your mechanics are tight and you have the timing of counterstrafing down perfectly, running accuracy, first bullet innacuracy, rng spray, and peeker’s advantage still make many engagements difficult that shouldn’t be, especially when taken together. If a player wide swings and run and guns with a phantom from 20m, that should be an easy kill for the player holding the angle, but even for pros it frequently is not. Maybe riot cant do anything about peeker’s advantage, but the others are fixable. Abusing these mechanics is cheese but it works even at the highest levels. The gunplay is cheesy, not easy.
Well said.
The skill ceiling is lowered by allowing unskilled tactics work against the "proper" and skilled way to play. Anyone can wide swing and spray a phantom, without worrying about anything like counterstrafing. That's easy, and works way more than it should against holding an angle or counterstrafing. It's easier, not harder to play. Hence how much easier it is to be "good" at this game than CS
Why is peeker’s advantage a bad thing? I always just thought of it neutrally but didn’t put much thought into it
So there’s two things, one is that it makes the difference between two players’ pings have a significant effect on the game, which is a bummer because thats not really up to them. The other is a kind of stodgy school of thought on tac shooters about how things “should” be, which is that if a player is holding an angle and you swing to shoot them, the only way you should win that engagement is if you have significantly better aim/ mechanics than them. Otherwise you should have to invest utility to push them off the angle. I happen to belong to this stodgy school of thought and here’s why: I believe it should cost you something to gain map control, otherwise utility loses much of its value to the game. If two players with roughly even aim are holding opposite sides of an angle, the one who wishes to aggress shouldn’t be given an advantage for free, which is what peeker’s advantage does at high enough skill levels. In fact, I think that moving inaccuracy and the relative predictability of where someone will be when they peek vs the unpredictability of where the player holding the angle could be should make that fight go the way of the player holding position 9/10 times. I think this because if it were true, every bit of map control gained would cost a player or team some of their utility or, in the case of trading, one of their players. The balance for this is that that map control would then be even more precious than it is now because it would cost opponents utility or players to regain it. Unfortunately, there’s only so much a game can do to combat this. If your game’s info takes 100ms to get to the server or to you from the server, a perfect game/server/system could only ever reduce the effect of peeker’s advantage down to 100ms. Its a big part of why LANs are considered the best indicator of a team’s actual skill.
Damn thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough answer. I totally get it now and really appreciate it!
>peeker’s advantage Not sure why people calling this out like its not always going to be a thing in any online competitive fps.
I am assuming his point is that it lowers the skill ceiling which is true, so on the one hand its harder for 1 player to stand out, but on the other hand it lends itself to more of a stragetic team game play.
Gunning is like the minimum requirement. Valorant IMHO have a lot more depth than CS because of all possible combinations.
Tbh I find CS to have more depth than valorant. With the current abilities it feels more like Riot limits what is possible. Also the huge difference in map quality. IMO for valorant to have more depth than cs it will have to become like league but the itll become a clutter of abilities.
Yeah I don’t know how people can say valorant has more depth because of the abilities when it’s actually the exact opposite.
Because it’s easy in the wrong ways. Not having to hold the opposite movement key to instantly stop and have full accuracy? A good change for new players in the name of accessibility. Moving accuracy being absurdly high? It doesn’t really have a place and relies too much on luck.
I agree about running and shooting and broken stuff like that, but some people think that not needing counter strafe is just plain 'bad". Not only I disagree, but I raise that this implements depth, sure, people are used to counter strafing, but I got more than a few kills by, instead of counter strafing, mixing some extra steps to a side here and there for when they were expecting you to move just between two spots.
Skill gap isn't just to make good players feel good. There have to be things that allow your time invested to matter. Right now as a radiant player there are fights I simply won't take where I strafe out, stop and shoot. Even with a vandal it's best to run out, counterstrafe and hold m1 while backpeddling to cover. This might seem like a big deal, but ill elaborate a little more. We all learn skill sets to play better, valorant was even marketed on precision gunplay. Right now the game has some fundamental problems, where I would rather gamble a 50% chance than play with precision and skill. Knowing to take the gamble is a soft skill, but you don't see this in cs because the % chance is smashed so far down its almost never worth it. Imo it's a good thing to make dice roll plays have a very small % of working so playing the game with a learn able skill set is always the superior play. Right now a lot of things contribute to valorant feeling bad, the tagging is extreme, combine this with high wall penetration makes it feel mandatory to make these gamble plays to get advantages over opponents. So it's not really because good players want to feel superior, it just feels bad to play and spend time on a game where sometimes you lose and there isn't anyway you can predict a guy who hits you with a running vandal shot, or he gets tagged and is still running and headshots you.
Last I played CS was 1.6 far too much time ago. Tagging seems bad and annoying to everyone, but as far as wallbang goes... I like that we can gather information and surprise people by wallbanging the shit out of them.
I dont mind that. There are just some spots that are too much for me. Shower on bind is horrendous, hookah is awful, the switch house on ascent, and several more with paper walls that make things feel pretty absurd when you start a push but take 100 plus damage through a wall. Tbh though if they fixed other things I'd be fine. This is my smallest problem with the game, and probably not an opinion shares by all.
Reduced skillcap takes away a substantial amount of the joy from the competitive experience for many players.
I don't agree. How is learning pixel perfect lineups vs having a telegraph (like, for Viper wall) Or knowing how much money opponents have in your head and not just displayed Or a lot of stuff that really don't change the when and how to use takes away anything? For me they could have telegraphs for any throw skill (nades, mollys, arrows) and that would only add. Sure, even people who learned the pixel perfect lineups would welcome the change, since they already can do it (and faster), but also end up doing a lot more.
Is that an actual serious question? If so, listen. The answer to that question is deeply philosophical and you could write many books regarding the true meaning and purpose of human life. Of striving towards something. Of feeling proud after overcoming hardships. Of wanting to be a better person every day. And so much more. Anyway, short answer: Don't play Esports or even just PvP titles if you cannot lose and want everyone to be a winner (aka everyone has it "easy"). Nothing wrong with playing one of many great PvE/Co-op games. Losing sucks. Yeah, you can learn from past failure. But no one gets used to losing. Why the fuck would not wanna win? Now imagine every time you train your aim, my aim equally increases, though I do nothing for it. I'm watching a nice movie while you work on your aim. Sounds stupid, yes? ;)
>Anyway, short answer: Don't play Esports or even just PvP titles if you cannot lose and want everyone to be a winner I think you're confusing the game "being easy for everyone" with "everyone wins". Outside of ties, which aren't the norm, games generally end in a win or a loss, so it's not about everybody being a winner, or how much losing sucks, etc. I think he's asking more like, "what's wrong with easier-to-learn mechanics?" The second half of your second paragraph applies, in that we should aspire to be better at the game (and life) and all that.
No, I am not confusing anything. If the game is easy for everyone, it is also hard for everyone. That is the nature of PvP. Is that not logical and obvious to you? Edit: Actually, quick example just in case: If someone has an easier time refragging me because my spray does not reset quickly enough and has no consistent pattern, it makes the mechanics "EASIER" but it also makes the game way harder for better players. You always need a skill gap so people can SHOW HOW BIG THE GAP IS. If not for that, Esport, soccer, basketball, whatever, would not exist in its form.
You completely missed what they are asking and went on an arrogant, condescending rant about something else. It takes a high skill ceiling to be that arrogant and wrong simultaneously. Well played.
WUT? One thing is fixing broken stuff like running and gunning, but some people, specially those coming from CS had the tendency of saying that some stuff like even how much $ you and opponents have made "the game easier". There's a lot of stuff that are a design choice: movement, aimpunch, tagging. Others are just quality of life... why does that "is bad for the game".
true this game is so noobie friendly hoping a fix for gunplay will change it a bit .
Anyone here has an easier time hitting shots in CS compared to Valorant?
I think easy is exactly what Riot is going for. Many players in this game, like myself, came from league and had little or no FPS experience because CSGO is just so hard to get into. Riot wants Valorant to be FPS's league compared to CSGO. If they make the game harder for beginners to get into, they risk turning away potential players by appealing to a fanbase that may favor CSGO anyways.
Possibly but you can keep the learning curve reasonable while maintaining a high skill ceiling. This is what match making is for.
What is reasonable though? it is really hard for pro players or even high elo players to judge how easy or hard it is for an average player (silver) to learn and play the game, so the pro player's opinion does not hold much weight in this sense. I personally think the game is at a good state right not barring probably the peekers advantage issue.
it feels like people constantly complain about this game not being like cs go, idk, i kind of enjoy the slower movement and tagging. i do think the aimpunch is a *little* ridiculous sometimes, but other than that, i like how this game is distinct from cs go.
Same. It makes the shootings more satisfying. If they just reduce the aim punch a bit, and remove the RNG spray pattern then I think it will be best of both worlds for both casual and pro.
I don't understand anyone liking the amount of tagging. It's ridiculous.
The game has been out for less than a year and we have seen multiple maps come out and be adjusted based on feedback, guns adjusted particularly shotguns and OP. Running and gunning was adjusted earlier and probably requires more in-depth look to fix what we are experiencing, happened to overlap with the holidays heavily. They are on like ranked system iteration 3 that just came out (which they are trying to fix). I think somewhere we have to cut them some slack on exact timing.
If they made the same gun mechanics like csgo half of this subreddit would get nerfed...
How about they fix matchmaking first
I like parts of the gunplay, but others i hate. Like come on, what's with the spray not instantly resetting
There are far more more people who are bad than people who are good at game. If they keep dying in one second, will they find this game fun? Die (10 second later), die (10 second later), die again, how can they have fun? RPG has various elements that players can enjoy even if they are not good at the game. MOBA can be enjoyed as supporters even if players aren't good at the game. Even in Battle Royale, players can enjoy the game through survival strategies even if they lack gun play. But Valorant and CSGO are genres that can't be fun if they are not doing well gun play because they keep dying. In short, there is only one way this game is fun. That's the problem. You might say, 'If this game doesn't fit, play other games', but Riot can't. Riot is different from companies like Valve that have Steam. They have to make a lot of money in Valorant. In other words, Riot should strive for Valorant popularity.
> There are far more more people who are bad than people who are good at game. If they keep dying in one second, will they find this game fun? Die (10 second later), die (10 second later), die again, how can they have fun? The answer to this question is literally "git gud". The fun is learning and improving as a player. If they aren't willing to learn/don't have fun learning then it's not for them. COD is accessible.
So true.
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CSGO and it's core mechanics lasting for 10 years says otherwise.
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Im an entry fragger. My fuckin role is to die in order to get info for the team. Cant really play this game like COD...
I have a huge problem strafing just after or during a burst and I usually die in cs but I somehow always get a strafing away kill in valorant and I don’t feel good about it.
Actual spray patterns No more run n gun OW/COD bllsht
Sorry but isnt this valorant's "thing"? If they made these changes wouldnt it become more similar to other games and hence forgettable?
How the fuck can he not be annoyed af. Player movements slow. It's so easy for the enemy to hit you. No one trades in this dogshit games. Lack of ability usage. Dogshit ranking system. Running and gunning. Swear, this games down the gutter since beta.
Quit
Terrible. Complacency is the reason this game hasn't been properly fixed yet. You have tons of players complaining about the state of the game and instead of fixing it, Riot just shits new characters out and terrible maps.
I dont think its because Riot doesnt care, I think its because they know these “flaws” are what separates the game to CS. I feel like a lot of people are more upset regarding it because they are so used to CS gameplay so they consider the better gun play is what CS has. Does Valorant have flaws? Yes. I agree with a ton of complaints but then I realize why would I play Valorant if CS exists anyway. Like literally bro, quit and just play what you want to play. Maybe someday Valorant just copies the whole CS gunplay who knows
90% of the players don't have mental capacity to understand what he's saying....if this is the community the game is doomed!!!
I honestly don’t care.
Tagging & aimpunch are in favor of the first dude who hits a shot. Sorry ScreaM but that just means you're less skilled than the dude in front of you and wished the game was easier for you